PJB: What Escalation In Ukraine Could Mean

[AuH20]

Pat makes a great point. This isn't Qaddafi or Saddam Hussein. Major repercussions could ensue with this meddling.

http://buchanan.org/blog/u-s-russia-clash-in-ukraine-15550


Among Cold War presidents, from Truman to Bush I, there was an unwritten rule: Do not challenge Moscow in its Central and Eastern Europe sphere of influence.

In crises over Berlin in 1948 and 1961, the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and the Warsaw Pact invasion of Prague in 1968, U.S. forces in Europe stayed in their barracks.

We saw the Elbe as Moscow’s red line, and they saw it as ours.

While Reagan sent weapons to anti-Communist rebels in Angola, Nicaragua and Afghanistan, to the heroic Poles of Gdansk he sent only mimeograph machines.

That Cold War caution and prudence may be at an end.

For President Obama is being goaded by Congress and the liberal interventionists in his party to send lethal weaponry to Kiev in its civil war with pro-Russian rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk.


America has never had a vital interest in Crimea or the Donbass worth risking a military clash with Russia. And we do not have the military ability to intervene and drive out the Russian army, unless we are prepared for a larger war and the potential devastation of the Ukraine.

What would Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon or Reagan think of an American president willing to risk military conflict with a nuclear-armed Russia over two provinces in southeastern Ukraine that Moscow had ruled from the time of Catherine the Great?

What is happening in Ukraine is a tragedy and a disaster. And we are in part responsible, having egged on the Maidan coup that overthrew the elected pro-Russian government.

But a greater disaster looms if we get ourselves embroiled in Ukraine’s civil war. We would face, first, the near certainty of defeat for our allies, if not ourselves. Second, we would push Moscow further outside Europe and the West, leaving her with no alternative but to deepen ties to a rising China.

[wizardwatson]

Well, the last ditch peace effort in Minsk has concluded. Russian tweets seem to be pessimistic about the outcome, calling the meeting a PR stunt. An attempt perhaps by Putin to get some public support for the idea that it's Western meddling that's causing this.

But we really don't know who the good and bad guys are. They could've negotiated this deal (which will likely fail like the first) through videoconference, but instead opted to put on a display of handshaking and wine-drinking and press conferences. People ARE dying you know, remember?, the reason you're there?

But it's all for our entertainment and indoctrination. It's hard to tell the end game.

Here's my guess:

Porky's commanders have already said publicly that they will honor the ceasefire.
Porky's commanders will likely violate the ceasefire and war will start back up (if it ever fully stopped).
Putin will be blamed.
EU will condemn Russia, issue fresh sanctions, but stop short of supplying lethal aid.
USA will call EU pussies and supply lethal aid unilaterally.

Possible Results:
1. war of attrition continues and USA/IMF succeed in it's political gentrification of eastern Ukraine, exploit resources, make debt slaves of laborers.
2. war of attrition continues and separaists become de facto independent state militarily, if not politically.
3. Russia will preemptively stabilize region with invasion (very similar to South Ossetia, Georgia military campaign against USA puppet Saakashvili).

But I agree with Pat, and I think a lot of Americans miss this. America's power tripping needs to take a step back. Russia is not the middle east.

[wizardwatson]

From the article I think the bolded part would be the best option if we are to save lives. How USA would twist that act who knows.


Thus far, despite evidence of Russian advisers in Ukraine and claims of Russian tank presence, Putin denies that he has intervened. But if U.S. cargo planes start arriving in Kiev with Javelin anti-tank missiles, Putin would face several choices.

He could back down, abandon the rebels, and be seen as a bully who, despite his bluster, does not stand up for Russians everywhere.

More in character, he could take U.S. intervention as a challenge and send in armor and artillery to enable the rebels to consolidate their gains, then warn Kiev that, rather than see the rebels routed, Moscow will intervene militarily.

Or Putin could order in the Russian army before U.S. weapons arrive, capture Mariupol, establish a land bridge to Crimea, and then tell Kiev he is ready to negotiate.

What would we do then? Send U.S. advisers to fight alongside the Ukrainians, as the war escalates and the casualties mount? Send U.S. warships into the Black Sea?

Have we thought this through, as we did not think through what would happen if we brought down Saddam, Gadhafi and Mubarak?

[ZENemy]

I have dancer friends in this area (Ukraine and Czech) and some of my American friends were visiting them. My American friends had to skip the night club last night due to being Americans. I was told that Americans are pretty much not welcomed ANYWHERE anymore. One of my friends was beaten down in Germany last week just for being American.


THANKS PATHETIC GOVERNMENT!

[AuH20]

very relevant to what's going on.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?468666-Obama-We-have-to-twist-arms-when-countries-don-t-do-what-we-need-them-to

[wizardwatson]

I have dancer friends in this area (Ukraine and Czech) and some of my American friends were visiting them. My American friends had to skip the night club last night due to being Americans. I was told that Americans are pretty much not welcomed ANYWHERE anymore. One of my friends was beaten down in Germany last week just for being American.


THANKS PATHETIC GOVERNMENT!

American's are despised all the world over. My wife is from India, a country generally friendly to the US, but the people in India still see Americans as spoiled, egotistical and generally ignorant of what their own government does and certainly ignorant of what's going on in the rest of the world.

Everyone hates everyone's government including their own, but their is a lot of hatred for the American people specifically.

I can't remember where I've heard this, maybe my wife, but someone said, paraphrasing...

"The world hates Americans so much because Americans don't know why the world hates them."

Sad but true.

[ZENemy]

American's are despised all the world over. My wife is from India, a country generally friendly to the US, but the people in India still see Americans as spoiled, egotistical and generally ignorant of what their own government does and certainly ignorant of what's going on in the rest of the world.

Everyone hates everyone's government including their own, but their is a lot of hatred for the American people specifically.

I can't remember where I've heard this, maybe my wife, but someone said, paraphrasing...

"The world hates Americans so much because Americans don't know why the world hates them."

Sad but true.

I agree and up to a few years ago, my dancer community would sorta of be immune to this and could safely hang around this scene with no problems. As of late, even the dancer community is hiring less and less Americans due to safety.

[AuH20]

American's are despised all the world over. My wife is from India, a country generally friendly to the US, but the people in India still see Americans as spoiled, egotistical and generally ignorant of what their own government does and certainly ignorant of what's going on in the rest of the world.

Everyone hates everyone's government including their own, but their is a lot of hatred for the American people specifically.

I can't remember where I've heard this, maybe my wife, but someone said, paraphrasing...

"The world hates Americans so much because Americans don't know why the world hates them."

Sad but true.

But we're so EXCEPTIONAL. Actually, our ideals were EXCEPTIONAL (relatively speaking) but that was a very long time ago.

[acptulsa]

What would Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon or Reagan think of an American president willing to risk military conflict with a nuclear-armed Russia over two provinces in southeastern Ukraine that Moscow had ruled from the time of Catherine the Great?

We do seem to be seeing a change in the basic mindset of the head psychopaths in charge--from one of 'leech, but not enough to kill the host', to one of 'this game is all but over so steal what you can before the dogs are right at your heels'.

And I don't know what we can do besides tell the dogs they have an appointment and have the thieves chased out while there's still a little something left besides nuclear winter.

[AuH20]

We do seem to be seeing a change in the basic mindset of the head psychopaths in charge--from one of 'leech, but not enough to kill the host', to one of 'this game is all but over so steal what you can before the dogs are right at your heels'.

And I don't know what we can do besides tell the dogs they have an appointment and have the thieves chased out while there's still a little something left besides nuclear winter.

They know the petrodollar is dying, hence the desperation in Ukraine and in Syria. But at the same time, they are aware that they cannot endure a full-scale nuclear exchange with a first world military power like Russia. It's a total catch 22 for the anglo-american establishment.

[Warlord]

Related: The Politics of IMF Lending and Ukraine (http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/the-politics-of-imf-lending-and-ukraine/)http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/the-politics-of-imf-lending-and-ukraine/

[specsaregood]

"The world hates Americans so much because Americans don't know why the world hates them."


They hate us for our freedoms.

[AngryCanadian]

They hate us for our freedoms.

Haha they dont Hate you for your Fast Food Junk Freedoms or the high priced cheap quality goods its because what u are doing over there.

[DFF]

The danger of being hostile with Russia can't be overstated.

Never start a land war in Asia, and don't mess with nuclear Russia.

The neocons are playing high-stakes poker with all our lives.

Some may say, well, Russia would never launch on the US - well, they already almost did back in the mid-90's.

Yeltsin was literally a hair away from launching a nuclear counter-strike over a Norwegian rocket mistaken for a US trident missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_rocket_incident

[thoughtomator]

Anyone remember the snipers that shot at both sides during the coup? Now we got "American Sniper" being glorified all over the place, hmmm....

[kpitcher]

I like how the article mentions about our sending arms to Afghanistan and that being called caution and prudence.

[Prestige]

there has been so little coverage on ukraine lately that I had forgotten all about it