Vaccine Controversy Shows Why We Need Markets, Not Mandates

[Suzanimal]

Vaccine Controversy Shows Why We Need Markets, Not Mandates

http://i.imgur.com/KvUCW58m.png


If I were still a practicing ob-gyn and one of my patients said she was not going to vaccinate her child, I might try to persuade her to change her mind. But, if I were unsuccessful, I would respect her decision. I certainly would not lobby the government to pass a law mandating that children be vaccinated even if the children’s parents object. Sadly, the recent panic over the outbreak of measles has led many Americans, including some self-styled libertarians, to call for giving government new powers to force all children to be vaccinated.

Those who are willing to make an “exception” to the principle that parents should make health care decisions for their children should ask themselves when in history has a “limited” infringement on individual liberty stayed limited. By ceding the principle that individuals have the right to make their own health care decisions, supporters of mandatory vaccines are opening the door for future infringements on health freedom.

If government can mandate that children receive vaccines, then why shouldn’t the government mandate that adults receive certain types of vaccines? And if it is the law that individuals must be vaccinated, then why shouldn’t police officers be empowered to physically force resisters to receive a vaccine? If the fear of infections from the unvaccinated justifies mandatory vaccine laws, then why shouldn’t police offices fine or arrest people who don’t wash their hands or cover their noses or mouths when they cough or sneeze in public? Why not force people to eat right and take vitamins in order to lower their risk of contracting an infectious disease? These proposals may seem outlandish, but they are no different in principle from the proposal that government force children to be vaccinated.

By giving vaccine companies a captive market, mandates encourage these companies to use their political influence to expand the amount of vaccine mandates. An example of how vaccine mandates may have led politics to override sound science is from my home state of Texas. In 2007, the then-Texas governor signed an executive order forcing eleven and twelve year old girls to receive the human papilloma virus (HPV) vaccine, even though most young girls are not at risk of HPV. The Texas legislature passed legislation undoing the order following a massive public outcry, fueled by revelations that the governor’s former chief of staff was a top lobbyist for the company that manufactured the HPV vaccine.

The same principles that protect the right to refuse vaccines also protect the right of individuals to refuse to associate with the unvaccinated. Private property owners have the right to forbid those who reject vaccines from entering their property. This right extends to private businesses concerned that unvaccinated individuals could pose a risk to their employees and customers. Consistent application of the principles of private property, freedom of association, and individual responsibility is the best way to address concerns that those who refuse vaccines could infect others with disease.

...

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/february/08/vaccine-controversy-shows-why-we-need-markets-not-mandates/

[JK/SEA]

My man Ron. Always has the right answer....ALWAYS.

[XNavyNuke]

Another great OpEd by the original.

XNN

[donnay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pFgwMFZE90#t=40

[Warlord]

Ron Paul knocks it out of the park as usual ......

[NACBA]

If I were still a practicing ob-gyn and one of my patients said she was not going to vaccinate her child, I might try to persuade her to change her mind. But, if I were unsuccessful, I would respect her decision. I certainly would not lobby the government to pass a law mandating that children be vaccinated even if the children's parents object. Sadly, the recent panic over the outbreak of measles has led many Americans, including some self-styled libertarians, to call for giving government new powers to force all children to be vaccinated.

Those who are willing to make an "exception" to the principle that parents should make health-care decisions for their children should ask themselves when, in history, has a "limited" infringement on individual liberty stayed limited. By ceding the principle that individuals have the right to make their own health-care decisions, supporters of mandatory vaccines are opening the door for future infringements on health freedom.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ron-paul-why-vaccine-mandates-150623488.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory&soc_trk=tw via @YahooFinance

[NewRightLibertarian]

He's needed in the movement now more than ever

[donnay]

Absolutely!

[Suzanimal]

He's needed in the movement now more than ever

This ^^^ X a million.

[angelatc]

If I were still a practicing ob-gyn and one of my patients said she was not going to vaccinate her child, I might try to persuade her to change her mind.


​So he is in on the conspiracy? OMG!! They got to him!

[Natural Citizen]

If I were still a practicing ob-gyn and one of my patients said she was not going to vaccinate her child, I might try to persuade her to change her mind.......


​So he is in on the conspiracy? OMG!! They got to him!




..........But, if I were unsuccessful, I would respect her decision. I certainly would not lobby the government to pass a law mandating that children be vaccinated even if the children’s parents object. Sadly, the recent panic over the outbreak of measles has led many Americans, including some self-styled libertarians, to call for giving government new powers to force all children to be vaccinated.

Get back in yer hole.

[Cleaner44]

If I were still a practicing ob-gyn and one of my patients said she was not going to vaccinate her child, I might try to persuade her to change her mind.


​So he is in on the conspiracy? OMG!! They got to him!

No, Ron Paul gets it 100% right. You on the otherhand feed the idiots calling for mandates. You don't respect the parent that has decided not to vaccinate.


If I were still a practicing ob-gyn and one of my patients said she was not going to vaccinate her child, I might try to persuade her to change her mind. But, if I were unsuccessful, I would respect her decision.

You would do well to learn something from Dr. Ron Paul... or do you think of him as an uneducated quack?

[Natural Citizen]

Relevant reading - Pro-information demographic continue to be at the recieving end of the "anti-vaxxer" label by way of mainstream and social media campaign for forced consumption.

RT's Ben Swann discusses...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOEVvUeKUm0


Public health officials have been squaring off with anti-vaccination advocates in the wake of the recent measles outbreak that sickened dozens of Disneyland visitors. To stem the disease’s spread, California lawmakers have introduced new legislation mandating vaccinations for young children, but so-called ‘anti-vaxxers’ believe the move is an infringement of their most basic freedoms. Dr. David Katz, Director of Yale Prevention Research Center, and Mark Blaxill of the Canary Party debate the real issues over MMR vaccines.

[axiomata]

If I were still a practicing ob-gyn and one of my patients said she was not going to vaccinate her child, I might try to persuade her to change her mind. But, if I were unsuccessful, I would respect her decision.

...

The same principles that protect the right to refuse vaccines also protect the right of individuals to refuse to associate with the unvaccinated. Private property owners have the right to forbid those who reject vaccines from entering their property. This right extends to private businesses concerned that unvaccinated individuals could pose a risk to their employees and customers.

He's right on all counts (as usual), including the above, which some here might disagree with.

My son's daycare requires all kids have a number of vaccines in order to attend.

[Cleaner44]

He's right on all counts (as usual), including the above, which some here might disagree with.

My son's daycare requires all kids have a number of vaccines in order to intend.

He is right on all counts. Ron Paul is a man that understands liberty to his very core and has for decades.

[Weston White]

​So he is in on the conspiracy? OMG!! They got to him!

IDGARA, AMA FTW! ...Or else get smashed like ham sandwiches!

[silverhandorder]

I would not call for mandates. What I would do is structure my life to reflect my attitude towards those who do not vaccinate. I would not attend public places that allow unvaccinated people to be there. So that would create an incentive for the public places to cater to my needs. Considering that most people are for vaccination this would be overwhelmingly effect the business climate. Now I understand this is not a big issue. I don't really care enough to do this at the moment. Mostly because most people are vaccinated and government is unfortunately very much involved.

However if it was an issue as big as some people claim it was then I would follow through with the boycotts. So the anti-vaxers would have to choose whether they want to be ostracized or take care of their children.

No coercion No mandates. Just freedom of association.

[Weston White]

Actually that is exactly coercion: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coerce

You would merely force anti-vaxxers to lie about being vaccinated simply to partake in the necessities of society and thus causing them to spread their crackpot wackiness amongst all the pro-vaxxers, effectively resulting in a large portion of them infected as well, because as statistics are providing, vaccinations are not very effective after all.

[XNavyNuke]

... because as statistics are providing, vaccinations are not very effective after all.

Anyone who is a promoting vaccination as a public health cure-all, but not getting titers as part of their personal annual physical exam, is doing nothing more than participating in a Solomon Asch social experiment. If you are not getting routinely titered then your individual protection strategy is worthless and your finger pointing is just a symptom of your delusions that allow you to go through the day feeling holier-than-thou.

XNN

[angelatc]

No, Ron Paul gets it 100% right. You on the otherhand feed the idiots calling for mandates. You don't respect the parent that has decided not to vaccinate.


You have been listening to them too much. My biggest issue with the idiots who do not vaccinate is the fat that their arguments are just horrifically wrong, and that's when they are not outright fabrications. They're the idiots who are feeding the control freaks.


....as statistics are providing, vaccinations are not very effective after all.

Math and science are definitely NOT the strong suit of the anti-vaxxers. This is exactly what I am talking about. Don't vaccinate, get Hep B from hookers, drink yourself into a stupor...no fucks given. The "because I want to" position is strong.

But insisting that there are actually any facts to back up your position, and that somehow your rights are related to those facts? That just undermines the liberty movement, because it is just wrong.

[Natural Citizen]

Math and science are definitely NOT the strong suit of the anti-vaxxers.

There is no such thing as an "anti-vaxxer". This is language that politically driven people who participate in the industry/government social media campaign for forced consumption of these products use to attempt to disfranchise a pro-information society who question a little more. Pro-information community generally understand science and mathematics because they seek it out. Most seek it out because these products have a specific effect on their bodies. As well, others simply don't accept that their children should be pumped full of dozens of chemicals at once at an early age. And, again, they seek science. The seek information.

I think the entire "anti-vaxxer" meme comes from some who fear an informed demograph. They don't want to acknowledge that people question a little more these days. Nope. They don't want to hear that. They don't want an informed citizen. Get's in the way of government control and our investment returns.

I'd compare what we are seeing from the social and mainstream media platforms with this old gag....

First they ignore you

Then they laugh at you - (We're here at the moment as government and industry campaigns bombard the pro-information citizen with labels such as "anti-vaxxer" in order to discourage more people from questioning a little more)

Then they fight you

Then you win

[paleocon1]

I would not call for mandates. What I would do is structure my life to reflect my attitude towards those who do not vaccinate. I would not attend public places that allow unvaccinated people to be there. ......................

You won't be missed. BTW, Fool IF you have your vaxx YOU are 'safe' sooooo what are you complaining about other than your inability to intimidate others?

[Working Poor]

I posted these link on another thread but I thought it would go well here too. This doctor illustrates how vaccines are the back bone of the pharmaceutical industry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JaGHJ8w5a8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY2dsEQ9vsg

[Cleaner44]

You have been listening to them too much. My biggest issue with the idiots who do not vaccinate is the fat that their arguments are just horrifically wrong, and that's when they are not outright fabrications. They're the idiots who are feeding the control freaks.



Math and science are definitely NOT the strong suit of the anti-vaxxers. This is exactly what I am talking about. Don't vaccinate, get Hep B from hookers, drink yourself into a stupor...no fucks given. The "because I want to" position is strong.

But insisting that there are actually any facts to back up your position, and that somehow your rights are related to those facts? That just undermines the liberty movement, because it is just wrong.

Think of it like the right to work. A business should always have the right to terminate an employee, just as the individual has the right to quit. Unions stand in the way of right to work. A business doesn't need to give a reason to fire a worker.

A person or parent doesn't need to give a reason for their choice to vaccinate or not vaccinate. It doesn't matter if a person's decision not to vaccinate is based on facts, lack of facts or just plain superstition. In a free society a person should be able to make that choice without your approval or that of the collective society.

If you want to talk about math and science, you need to admit that their are risks to vaccines, just as there are to nearly all medicines and procedures. Even though the risk might be .0001% of an adverse reaction, it is still a very real risk.

Just look at this commercial that the pharmaceutical company admits could cause suicidal thoughts. They certainly don't put that in there to increase sales:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hp_y0wDFz0

Every post I read from you comes off like there are no risks and only an idiot would think there are risks. Every person has there own risk tolerance and you treating them shitty for not making your personal is not cool. Your actions are very different from Ron Paul, who would encourage a vaccine but respect freedom of choice. You choose only to respect people that make your choice.

So either you simply do not respect freedom of choice or you are a pharmaceutical company shill. Personally I don't think you are a shill, but rather an intolerant, self-rightous authoritarian. Its a damn shame too, because you agree with Ron Paul is so many other ways.

[angelatc]

We are not talking about Chantix and suicides. We are talking about vaccines. The risks from the vaccines are literally infinitesimal compared to the risks of getting the disease. People can choose whatever they want, but when the anti-vax crowd bellows lies about links to autism and mercury poisoning and toxins, they create a cesspool of misinformation that inhibits people to make informed choices.

Of course, I respect freedom of choice, but again - posting incorrect information as a reason not to make a choice (especially with the intent to try to influene others) and then tying our rights to that reason undermines the liberty movement.

[Natural Citizen]

So either you simply do not respect freedom of choice or you are a pharmaceutical company shill. Personally I don't think you are a shill, but rather an intolerant, self-rightous authoritarian.

When various industry and shareholders attempt to void sovereignty by way of government in order to protect themselves from a genuine free market this is mercantilism. And make no mistake about it, what we are seeing with the whole "anti-vaxxer" social and mainstream media meme they have going on at the moment to try to discredit citizens who are simply pro-information for the purpose of being able to make a competent and informed choice in what they consume is just that. It's mercantilism. And mercantilists are no friend of liberty. Now, they create the illusion that they are as is seen in the immediate post before what I share with you here because most people simply cannot decipher the difference between a genuine free market and honest capitalism with that of mercantilism.

[DamianTV]

This really isnt about being Anti Vaccine. This is everything with GOVT AUTHORITY TO FORCE VACCINES.

If the Govt can do what ever it wants to you, require you to be injected with anything, what is to stop a MANDATORY RFID CHIP, or any other technology they demand to put into your body? This is about PROPERTY RIGHTS, whereby the individual owns themself and the Govt must seek permission from the individual or parent to do anything. But to allow Govt the unlimited authority to do anything to any persons body it wants only opens the door to mandatory human chipping, or mandatory circumcision, mandatory operations, mandatory drugs like anti depressants, cancer treatments, operations and any modification that a facist govt can do to make a population passive and submissive.

People like Angela hide behind their fear of medical contagions without realizing that the force they advocate is VIOLENCE BY PROXY. They cry out to the Govt to come door to door and put a Gun in one hand and an Injection or any medical procedure in the other. But cut out the middleman and eliminate the proxy bullshit, and the Gun and Needle may as well be in Angelas hand. I own my body and everyone else but me needsd my permission to do anything to it.

So just replace Mandatory Vaccine with Mandatory Circumcision in the text of our arguments to see a different side of the same coin.

[DamianTV]

You have been listening to them too much. My biggest issue with the idiots who do not vaccinate is the fat that their arguments are just horrifically wrong, and that's when they are not outright fabrications. They're the idiots who are feeding the control freaks.



Math and science are definitely NOT the strong suit of the anti-vaxxers. This is exactly what I am talking about. Don't vaccinate, get Hep B from hookers, drink yourself into a stupor...no fucks given. The "because I want to" position is strong.

But insisting that there are actually any facts to back up your position, and that somehow your rights are related to those facts? That just undermines the liberty movement, because it is just wrong.

Then lets look at your actions. I think you care more about "Not Questioning Authority" than to allow any individual to Question, then possibly validate the conclusion of their own accord. The results are as if you fear someone comes to a different conclusion than you have come to, thus, demand to "Not Question Authority". But replace vaccine with ANY medical procedure that could be forced onto an individual. Would we come to the same conclusion if Circumcisions were mandatory? How about Chemotherapy? What about Big Pharma Drugs like Ritalin or a Statin or an Anti Depressant? What about a Mandatory Surgery that ended in amputation? What about Mandatory RFID Implants? Your arguments arent at all about being Pro or Anti Vaccine at all. You become emotionally comprimised whenever a person dares to Question Authority. Youre basically demanding that people DO NOT THINK, and that is far more dangerous than vaccines or even guns ever could be.

[Natural Citizen]

So just replace Mandatory Vaccine with Mandatory Circumcision in the text of our arguments to see a different side of the same coin.

I did that in a vaccination thread around here some place. It was crickets chirping alright. You're the only one I've seen bring it up since. And you're spot on too. Heh.

I even went so far as to bring up abrtion in the same context.

[DamianTV]

I did that in a vaccination thread around here some place. It was crickets chirping alright. You're the only one I've seen bring it up since. And you're spot on too. Heh.

I even went so far as to bring up abrtion in the same context.

Good point. Replace Vaccine with Abortion. I come to the same conclusion. Even though I would prefer to not see anyone get an abortion, I dont think it is my place to try to Force a person either way. Oh, youre poor, thus, Mandatory Abortion. Total Fail if I were to say such a thing. Opposite side of the coin would be "Tubal Pregnancy where neither the mother or the unborn baby will survive", and demand "No Abortion for You!", again Fail on my part if I said such a thing. It is more than just not allowing myself to try to make that choice for another, but my responsibility to defend the Right for the other to choose for themselves, and I must defend whatever decision they come to. But since were breaking the Vaccine topic, lets take Abortion to the next step. Mandatory Hysterectomy. I fear it wont be long until Hysterectomies become mandatory for any who express "the wrong political opinion". In a free society, the responsibility of the Govt would be to protect the Rights of the Individual from the demands of the Group. I wonder just how much flack I'll get for that statement...

[Cleaner44]

We are not talking about Chantix and suicides. We are talking about vaccines. The risks from the vaccines are literally infinitesimal compared to the risks of getting the disease. People can choose whatever they want, but when the anti-vax crowd bellows lies about links to autism and mercury poisoning and toxins, they create a cesspool of misinformation that inhibits people to make informed choices.

Of course, I respect freedom of choice, but again - posting incorrect information as a reason not to make a choice (especially with the intent to try to influene others) and then tying our rights to that reason undermines the liberty movement.

You can take your -rep and stick it where the sun don't shine because I didn't call you a shill.



So either you simply do not respect freedom of choice or you are a pharmaceutical company shill. Personally I don't think you are a shill, but rather an intolerant, self-rightous authoritarian. Its a damn shame too, because you agree with Ron Paul is so many other ways.

Why exactly should anyone here respect your medical opinion? I have to question your own comprehension given your inability to read my statement above.

[Weston White]

They're the idiots who are feeding the control freaks.

LOGIC FAILURE>>PROGRAM TERMINATING.


Math and science are definitely NOT the strong suit of the anti-vaxxers. This is exactly what I am talking about.

In general the likelihood of becoming infected is less than 1% of the population: 1% ~ 3,150,000. And in general likelihood of the infection resulting in a fatality or permanent injury is less than 1,000, which is about the same ratio of people that go on to permanently suffer from merely haven taken a vaccine that was more likely never actually needed in the first place and regardless has about a 10% or greater rate of failure to immunize—and regardless still provides only a limited duration of immunity--whereas natural immunity likely provides 100% lifelong immunity.

Other causes of death odds that are of greater concern:


From any variation of cancer (in aggregate): 1:4 (males) 1:5 (females)
Heart disease: 1:7
Respiratory illness: 1:29
Suicide: 1:103
Traffic collisions: 1:112
Poisoning: 1:119
Being shot: 1:356
Ran over as pedestrian: 1:723
Riding motorcycle: 1:922
Drowning: 1:1,043
Fire or smoke inhalation: 1:1,418
Bicycling: 1:4,974
Heat exhaustion: 1:8,321
Airplane crashes: 1:8,357
Electrocution: 1:12,174
Heat related exposure: 1:62,608
Injury due to sharp object (e.g., running with scissors): 1:37,565
Severe weather: 1:83,922
Capital punishment: 1:96,203


Additional fatalities per annum to take under consideration:


Shark attacks: 1-2
Vending machines: 2
Nonprofessional football: 12
Falling icicles: 15
Cow assaults: 20
Horse related: 20
Uncorking Champagne: 24
Dog mauling’s: 30
Reactions to jellyfish stings: 40
Ant bites: 50
Bee sting allergies: 50-100
Peanut allergies: 100
Scalding tap water: 100
Extreme weather: 104
Falling coconuts: 150
Ladder falls: 355
Sleep-falling: 450
Excessively cold weather: 600
Autoerotic asphyxiation: 1,000
Stoplight crashes: 2,000
Lefty using equipment designed for those right-handed: 2,500

(* Additionally, the odds of accidental death increase by five simply by being left-handed.)


Hippo assaults: 2,900
Choking: 3,000
Contaminated food: 5,000
Trips and falls while walking/running: 6,000
Lightning strikes: 24,000
Malaria from mosquito bites: 800,000



But insisting that there are actually any facts to back up your position, and that somehow your rights are related to those facts? That just undermines the liberty movement, because it is just wrong.

PERFORMING MEMORY FLUSH...


Don't vaccinate, get Hep B from hookers, drink yourself into a stupor...no fucks given. The "because I want to" position is strong.

SYSTEM RECOVERY NOT SUCCESSFUL. UNABLE TO INITIALIZE GRACEFUL EXIT! C+A+D FOR REBOOT...

[angelatc]

Then lets look at your actions. I think you care more about "Not Questioning Authority" than to allow any individual to Question, .

And that's where your argument fails. No need to go any farther.

[angelatc]

Why exactly should anyone here respect your medical opinion? I


They should not respect my medical opinion. I am an accountant, not a MD. What they should do is look at the facts I put out and then prove them wrong. Insisting that every scientist in the world is in on some grand conspiracy is only acceptable if it can be proved.

Not getting vaccinated? I don't care.
Reading a bunch of websites to surround yourself with people who agree with you? Not my concern.
Post absolute lies about vaccines and the dangers associated with them with absolutely zero evidence to support your position? Don't expect you have some right not to get corrected.

These people are responsible for the drop in vaccine rates which makes them responsible for the outbreak. Couple their insane hysteria with the media's insane hysteria and we are going to get a huge wave of support for mandatory vaccinations, and the only reason to oppose it, freedom, isn't even in the discussion. It's a battle of the loonies against the shrieking harpies that are on the 24/7 news channels.

[Anti Federalist]

These people are responsible for the drop in vaccine rates which makes them responsible for the outbreak. Couple their insane hysteria with the media's insane hysteria and we are going to get a huge wave of support for mandatory vaccinations, and the only reason to oppose it, freedom, isn't even in the discussion. It's a battle of the loonies against the shrieking harpies that are on the 24/7 news channels.

So make it part of the discussion instead of running around the forum waging a personal jihad against my wife because you disagree with her over the reasons.

This is not freedom:

http://madworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/blooddraw.jpg

We made Boobus understand it about guns, why not this?

[angelatc]

So make it part of the discussion instead of running around the forum waging a personal jihad against my wife because you disagree with her over the reasons.

This is not freedom:



We made Boobus understand it about guns, why not this?

Your wife is utterly incapable of carrying on a conversation, and instead just spams the forums with the same incorrect bizarre misinformation over and over again. Nobody actually questioned her decisions, or asked her why she made them - she is the one who won't shut up about ours.

[Cleaner44]

Your wife is utterly incapable of carrying on a conversation, and instead just spams the forums with the same incorrect bizarre misinformation over and over again. Nobody actually questioned her decisions, or asked her why she made them - she is the one who won't shut up about ours.

I see and hear a bunch of people each saying that their side is right and the other side of wrong. Both sides can line up "experts" to back up their position. Your position seems to me largely based on trusting government bureaucrats at places like the CDC.

Given that government workers in the FDA, SEC, FBI, CIA, NSA, ATF, DoJ, etc are routinely full of shit, I have to wonder why you give them so much credibility.

The CDC is under the United States Department of Health and Human Services. This is the same group of asshats that told us the Obamacare was going to make healthcare more affordable. The clearly corrupt FDA is also under the United States Department of Health and Human Services, so I am a bit skeptical.

Why should we trust you that the government workers at the CDC are the one group that are untouched by corruption?

Forgive me for being suspitious of massive federal government agencies with a history of working against we the people. You see I am a small govenment guy because my experience has has shown me that BIG GOVT is my enemy. So please help me understand why you align yourself with the federal government and insist that this government bureaucracy is different than all of the rest.