Bill Maher: Socialism Created America's Successful Middle Class

[green73]

"The large, thriving middle class that America used to have didn't just appear out of the blue. It was created using an economic tool called socialism," said Maher on his show.

He went on to say that heavy taxation and redistribution of wealth after WWII led to America's middle-class success. This, of course, is absurd.

Here are the facts. government revenue as a percent of GDP and in real terms declined dramatically after WWII and it is much higher now than immediately after WWII.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ykstlhIqvO4/VM1U-zXmkFI/AAAAAAAAVWc/b59E-3SrVqo/s1600/fredgraph%2B%286%29.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ykstlhIqvO4/VM1U-zXmkFI/AAAAAAAAVWc/b59E-3SrVqo/s1600/fredgraph%2B%286%29.png)






http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rvXF4TE5Rmc/VM1TIRMlCKI/AAAAAAAAVWE/xOP0RT0ErtE/s1600/usgr_chart3p21.png (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rvXF4TE5Rmc/VM1TIRMlCKI/AAAAAAAAVWE/xOP0RT0ErtE/s1600/usgr_chart3p21.png)


Further, it is only in recent years that government redistribution programs have gone off the charts, especially in the areas of education and healthcare,


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cTkmJ17lzLY/VM1T-yz0PII/AAAAAAAAVWI/CDbyNLaZNqc/s1600/usgs_chart2p24.png (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cTkmJ17lzLY/VM1T-yz0PII/AAAAAAAAVWI/CDbyNLaZNqc/s1600/usgs_chart2p24.png)



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-g_LEF0PS2yo/VM1UMobVj0I/AAAAAAAAVWQ/h_LrS-TIUmI/s1600/usgs_chart2p23.png (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-g_LEF0PS2yo/VM1UMobVj0I/AAAAAAAAVWQ/h_LrS-TIUmI/s1600/usgs_chart2p23.png)

Here' s Maher talking complete nonsense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3wWia09UC8

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2015/01/bill-maher-says-socialism-created.html

[Sola_Fide]

Bill Maher is a libertarian.

[Suzanimal]

Bill Maher is a libertarian.

He's also called himself a progressive.

[heavenlyboy34]

Bill Maher is a libertarian.
He has claimed libertarian leanings, but still normally uses the "liberal" label. At any rate, LOL at Maher's ignorance, historical and economic. :D

[otherone]

Is he referring to this?:

http://aquilafunds.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Highest-Marginal-Tax-Rates-1913-2013.jpg

Or maybe the GI Bill?

[oyarde]

That is bullshit , in the past 100 yrs the nation has become more socialist ea day .So , if true , this middle class would be most of the nation .

[Anti Federalist]

Why does anybody bother to waste a single electron on distributing that fool's inane blatherings?

[green73]

Why does anybody bother to waste a single electron on distributing that fool's inane blatherings?

Because has a big platform and is taken seriously, despite what nonsense he spouts. And some do think he's a libertarain.

[Zippyjuan]

Highest marginal tax rates don't mean much since not many taxpayers actually had to pay them.

Not necessarily any cause or effect either way but the rise and fall of the middle class has followed rates of unionization.

https://progressivenetwork.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/top1percentchart_web_graphic.png
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/union-membership-middle-class-income_n_3948543.html

http://www.epi.org/m/?src=http://www.epi.org/files/2012/snapshot-unionmembership.png&w=608
http://billmoyers.com/2012/07/03/inequality-rises-as-union-numbers-decline/

[TommyJeff]

Bill Maher is a libertarian.

Lol. Is it joke night?

[Suzanimal]

Lol. Is it joke night?

He's claimed to be a libertarian in the past and I don't think he was kidding.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Bill Maher is a libertarian.
Bill Maher thought he was a libertarian because he wants to legalize drugs and prostitution.. He went on a rant a couple years ago about how bad libertarians are now, how they're selfish and that they worship Ayn Rand (even though I'd argue she has less influence on the movement now than at any other point since Atlas Shrugged was released, relatively speaking anyway). He clearly never actually understood anything about the philosophy, and doesn't to this day.

Bill Maher is an asshole, and if I was a progressive I'd still hate him. In fact, I might even hate him more since he'd be professing the kind of ideas I support. I've always said there's two kinds of progressives: the kind that genuinely (though wrongly) think their policies will help people, and then the kind who think they're so smart that they can run the lives of millions of people. Maher is the latter, and those people are among the most vile, insipid group of dicks in politics.

[Sola_Fide]

Lol. Is it joke night?

Hey if Eric Bolling from Fox can be an anarcho-capitalist, why can't Bill be a libertarian?

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Hey if Eric Bolling from Fox can be an anarcho-capitalist, why can't Bill be a libertarian?
Who said that?

[DamianTV]

Why does anybody bother to waste a single electron on distributing that fool's inane blatherings?

These comments need to be addressed because they will be repeated by the MSM everywhere. Propoganda is VIRAL. In order to stop the viral spread of this nonsense, people have to stop believing what ever propoganda is trying to be spread as being completely false. Once the message is out there, it isnt just the MSM that repeats it, it is the VIEWERS that repeat it also. Thus, it isnt just Bill Maher or Bill O'Really or George Stepenopolous, it is the IDEA that needs to be prevented from going VIRAL by calling it out as BS.

[HVACTech]

Highest marginal tax rates don't mean much since not many taxpayers actually had to pay them.

Not necessarily any cause or effect either way but the rise and fall of the middle class has followed rates of unionization.

https://progressivenetwork.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/top1percentchart_web_graphic.png
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/union-membership-middle-class-income_n_3948543.html

http://www.epi.org/m/?src=http://www.epi.org/files/2012/snapshot-unionmembership.png&w=608
http://billmoyers.com/2012/07/03/inequality-rises-as-union-numbers-decline/

that makes perfect sense in a system based on corporatism.

in case you have not noticed, more than a few of us who have a basic problem with that.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

BTW, I used to think Maher was just stupid before I heard his opinions on the Vietnam War. Then I realized he was a complete piece of shit. I'll try to find the video, it's really some of the most awful, vile stuff I've ever heard a pundit say.

[Sola_Fide]

Who said that?

Eric Bolling called himself an anarcho-capitalist.

[HVACTech]

I almost missed this gem.


Highest marginal tax rates don't mean much since not many taxpayers actually had to pay them.

:rolleyes:

[Suzanimal]

Who said that?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?457888-Fox-News-Host-Eric-Bolling-Declares-%93I%92m-An-Anarcho-capitalist%94&highlight=Eric+Bolling

[Zippyjuan]

There is actually a lot of truth in what Maher says. The Middle Class didn't exist much before the 20th century.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1882147,00.html


Our modern image of the middle class comes from the post–World War II era. The 1944 GI Bill provided returning veterans with money for college, businesses and home mortgages. Suddenly, millions of servicemen were able to afford homes of their own for the first time. As a result, residential construction jumped from 114,000 new homes in 1944 to 1.7 million in 1950. In 1947, William Levitt turned 4,000 acres of Long Island, New York, potato farms into the then largest privately planned housing project in American history. With 30 houses built in assembly-line fashion every day — each with a tree in the front yard — the American subdivision was born.

Then came the cars. And the backyard barbecues. And the black-and-white TVs. Ozzy and Harriet, Lucy and Ricky, Leave it to Beaver. In September 1958, Bank of America tested its first 60,000 credit cards (later named Visa) in Fresno, Calif. Within a decade, Americans had signed up for more than 100 million credit cards. Today, the number tops 1 billion. African Americans were able to pull themselves into the middle-class bracket through the social gains of the civil rights movement, though a disproportionate number still live below the poverty line.

Today, most middle-class Americans are homeowners. They have mortgages, at least some college education and a professional or managerial job that earns them somewhere between $30,000 and $100,000 a year. Although the suburban stereotype still holds, the middle class is just as likely to be found in urban centers (rural, not so much), and 70% of them have cable and two or more cars. Two-thirds have high-speed Internet, and 40% own a flat-screen TV. They have several credit cards each and a lot of luxury goods, but they still believe that others have more than they do. In 1970, TIME described middle America as people who "sing the national anthem at football games — and mean it."

That might be because the middle class is slightly more conservative than liberal (over half oppose gay marriage). Yet they are split fairly evenly between political parties and can often swing an election because — duh — there are so many of them. They went for Bush in 2004 and Obama in 2008. When Ronald Reagan asked Americans in 1980, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?" he was speaking to the middle class. A 1979 public-opinion survey found a rising number of middle-class Americans felt that their lives were getting worse, and it was with those people that his words resonated. In 1997, in the middle of the dot-com bubble but before Monica Lewinsky, middle-class optimism hit a record high — 57% felt they were moving upward — but it has been sliding back down ever since. A 2008 survey found that roughly half of Americans think they've made no progress and 31% consider themselves worse off than they were five years ago. (See pictures of crime in Middle America.)

Vice President Biden attempted to define middle-class Americans as people who would find it difficult to miss more than two paychecks, and he wasn't far off; with wage increases failing to keep pace with inflation, about 21% of middle-class Americans have spent themselves to the limit. Personal bankruptcies rose by a third last year and mortgage defaults — well, they're moving beyond subprime borrowers and hitting those with previously high credit scores. On Feb. 27, Biden and eight members of his task force, including Education Secretary Arne Duncan and Energy Secretary Steven Chu, will meet at the University of Pennsylvania to discuss the rescue of the middle class. Their first task? Creating green jobs. The committee believes that building environmentally friendly homes will help decrease middle-class homeowners' electricity and heating bills. That is, of course, if they have a home they can still afford.

Also following WWII, the US was about the only country with any significant manufacturing base to produce things needed to replace what was destroyed during the war. That meant lots of goods and workers needed. Besides the GI bill, high demand for labor increased wages.

[Sola_Fide]

There is actually a lot of truth in what Maher says. The Middle Class didn't exist much before the 20th century.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1882147,00.html

Right. Did socialism bring this, or industrialization and the market?

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?457888-Fox-News-Host-Eric-Bolling-Declares-%93I%92m-An-Anarcho-capitalist%94&highlight=Eric+Bolling
The mainstreaming of libertarian ideas sure is a mixed bag. I don't even know who this guy is really, but I do know that Fox wouldn't let an actual ancap on the air for even five minutes. I'd like to think the network is coming around, but I'd need a frontal lobotamy to be that optimistic. Andrew Napolitano (not even an ancap) was relegated to Fox Business up until it became clear he might hurt the Romney blowjob-fest that was Fox last election.

[DamianTV]

There is actually a lot of truth in what Maher says. The Middle Class didn't exist much before the 20th century.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1882147,00.html



Also following WWII, the US was about the only country with any significant manufacturing base to produce things needed to replace what was destroyed during the war. That meant lots of goods and workers needed. Besides the GI bill, high demand for labor increased wages.

To Zippy, Human Death means Profit, and it is the only way to make money. Broken Window Fallacy.

[VIDEODROME]

Maybe what really stimulated the economy was ENDING World War 2!!!!

What if we are currently in the financial equivalent of World War 3 as far as the huge burden on the American economy. Actually, the current drain on our economy from perpetual war could very well be even worse that WW2. Yes the Post World War economy was a boom. Let's have another POST - WAR economy.

Bring the troops home. Retool the War Machine factories toward production rather than destruction. Stop destroying infrastructure abroad just to rebuild it before we blow it up again a few years later. Bring the money home to rebuild at home.

I can only hope we all see this come to pass. The end of a total clusterfuck foreign policy of aggression and intervention, bring our troops back, and stop funneling tax money overseas in the form of bombs and bribes. Imagine if we could all get to experience the post war prosperity like the 1950s.

[HVACTech]

To Zippy, Human Death means Profit, and it is the only way to make money. Broken Window Fallacy.

+rep

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

The wealth increases in the US in the mid-20th century was the continuation of an overall trend that started in the 19th century, but was halted by the Great Depression. If you're going to claim that the wealth created then was because of socialism (which is pretty impossible without falling in to post-hoc ergo procter-hoc), capitalism still has it beat; the explosion of wealth in the largely free market 19th century is to this day unprecedented. Yeah, I know what the leftist critiques of the so-called "Gilded Age" are, but every single one of those is either ignoring historical context, ignoring the contemporary alternatives or flat-out lies about what happened to wages and hours worked.

[HVACTech]

correction.


Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
There is actually a lot of truth in what Maher says. The Middle Class didn't exist much before the 20th century.

before the 20th century. ONLY the middle and upper classes existed.

the rest were slaves.

[DamianTV]

Wanna know what I think created Americas Successful Middle Class? Financial Non Intervention. A truly Free Market.

In an enviornment where people keep the fruits of their labors without those who produce nothing demanding to be paid for permission to produce, the producers build the foundation and the economy grows naturally. As soon as those who do not produce gain power over those that do produce by exercising Govt's Monopoly on Violence and Money, the producers stop producing. Growth is limited to smaller and smaller groups. Competition is prohibited except for those in those small groups. And the Non Producers will continue to claim that we need them to tell the producers if they are even allowed to produce at all.

Socialism Murders Capitalism and the truly Free Market, and thereby, the Middle Class as well.

[heavenlyboy34]

To Zippy, Human Death means Profit, and it is the only way to make money. Broken Window Fallacy.
It is fallacious, but that seems to be Zip's point. (correct me if I'm wrong, zip) War is (generally) a type of stimulus for profiteers, and sort of "trickles down" to us plebians and mundanes. It's not really controversial to credit warfarism for the post-war boom. War is one of the oldest stimulus programs in history. WWII, though not the only factor, was the biggest cause of the rise of the bourgeois middle class, IMO. Hell, there wouldn't even be an interstate highway system if Eisenhower hadn't needed a way to move troops and materiel efficiently.

[Suzanimal]

The mainstreaming of libertarian ideas sure is a mixed bag. I don't even know who this guy is really, but I do know that Fox wouldn't let an actual ancap on the air for even five minutes. I'd like to think the network is coming around, but I'd need a frontal lobotamy to be that optimistic. Andrew Napolitano (not even an ancap) was relegated to Fox Business up until it became clear he might hurt the Romney blowjob-fest that was Fox last election.

He's a turd and you're correct, Fox News wouldn't let an ancap on the air.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?466141-Fox%92s-Eric-Bolling-Paris-Attack-Proves-We-Should-%91Over-Militarize%92-Police&highlight=Eric+Bolling

[DamianTV]

The wealth increases in the US in the mid-20th century was the continuation of an overall trend that started in the 19th century, but was halted by the Great Depression. If you're going to claim that the wealth created then was because of socialism (which is pretty impossible without falling in to post-hoc ergo procter-hoc), capitalism still has it beat; the explosion of wealth in the largely free market 19th century is to this day unprecedented. Yeah, I know what the leftist critiques of the so-called "Gilded Age" are, but every single one of those is either ignoring historical context, ignoring the contemporary alternatives or flat-out lies about what happened to wages and hours worked.

And what caused the Great Depression? The existence of a Central Bank that over inflated the money supply.

"The refusal of King George III to allow the colonies to operate an Honest Money System, which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the Money Manipulators, is the primary cause for the [Revolutionary] War."

[VIDEODROME]

Actually, during wartime, the middle class or lower class people that would have pursued middle class careers probably wind up enlisting. Or before a war declaration, many probably enlisted thinking they would just do Basic Training and get a break on college.

But now as probably during WW2, the Military is a big chunk of what could have been the productive middle class being sent into the meat grinder.

[TommyJeff]

He's claimed to be a libertarian in the past and I don't think he was kidding.

He's a joke. so I just assume all that comes out of his mouth can't be trusted.

[angelatc]

Highest marginal tax rates don't mean much since not many taxpayers actually had to pay them.

Not necessarily any cause or effect either way but the rise and fall of the middle class has followed rates of unionization.

https://progressivenetwork.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/top1percentchart_web_graphic.png
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/union-membership-middle-class-income_n_3948543.html

http://www.epi.org/m/?src=http://www.epi.org/files/2012/snapshot-unionmembership.png&w=608





http://billmoyers.com/2012/07/03/inequality-rises-as-union-numbers-decline/


Wow - that's a pretty meaningless chart. It would be far more helpful to see how many industries / jobs moved out of the states / country and the relationship of union membership and wages in that respect.

ETA: - It's Bill Moyers. Suddenly it makes sense. Not economic sense, but socialist propaganda sense.

[heavenlyboy34]

Actually, during wartime, the middle class or lower class people that would have pursued middle class careers probably wind up enlisting. Or before a war declaration, many probably enlisted thinking they would just do Basic Training and get a break on college.

But now as probably during WW2, the Military is a big chunk of what could have been the productive middle class being sent into the meat grinder.
True, but IDK if there would even be a middle class had it not been for the war boom. What say you? The rise of the middle class in Britain happened at ~the same time, so the correlation is quite strong.

[HVACTech]

the bourgeois middle class
can't have that. can we.
:rolleyes:

[Zippyjuan]

And what caused the Great Depression? The existence of a Central Bank that over inflated the money supply.

"The refusal of King George III to allow the colonies to operate an Honest Money System, which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the Money Manipulators, is the primary cause for the [Revolutionary] War."

Was the money supply soaring prior to the Great Depression? What did the supply of money look like at that time?
http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/2009/411/c411-20.gif

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/nonfarm-payrolls-great-depression-indicators

[HVACTech]

True, but IDK if there would even be a middle class had it not been for the war boom. What say you? The rise of the middle class in Britain happened at ~the same time, so the correlation is quite strong.

I am "middle class" not really rich, not really poor...

I did not need a war to make that happen.. only my skills.

:)

[Anti Federalist]

Highest marginal tax rates don't mean much since not many taxpayers actually had to pay them.

Not necessarily any cause or effect either way but the rise and fall of the middle class has followed rates of unionization.

Got a valid point here.

Not so much that unionization "created" the middle class, just the opposite actually, but it was the producing class, people actually making things, that created a middle class.

These jobs were the first to be targeted by unions.

Thus when these jobs went away, so did the unions.

And so did the middle class.

And there will never be a middle class again, until the deliberate policies that caused this are reversed.

Right now we are marching into a new feudalism: a wealthy ruling class of about five percent and everybody else, a scrabbling poor servant class.

[HVACTech]

Was the money supply soaring prior to the Great Depression? What did the supply of money look like at that time? Many date the start of the Great Depression from 1929 when the Stock Market Crash hit.

http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/2009/411/c411-20.gif

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/nonfarm-payrolls-great-depression-indicators

methinks... Zip is in LOVE with..

"the money supply"

(and does not know why God made Whiskey)

[DamianTV]

Was the money supply soaring prior to the Great Depression? What did the supply of money look like at that time?
http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/2009/411/c411-20.gif

http://www.shadowstats.com/article/nonfarm-payrolls-great-depression-indicators

Money Supply did soar. Between 1919 and 1929 the money supply doubled. Only about 2% of money is paper money. Most of it is just numbers on a balance sheet.

[HVACTech]

Got a valid point here.

Thus when these jobs went away,

I do not have a job sir. and have not for over 25 years.

like danno, I will probably sleep in tomorrow. :p

yes, I do have work... but no pressing issues anytime soon.

[anaconda]

I almost missed this gem.



:rolleyes:

I think the inference there was that high marginal rates do not necessarily correlate to large federal revenues or spending, which I think is what is meant to correlate to a strong middle class for those advancing the Bill Mayer argument.

[Zippyjuan]

Money Supply did soar. Between 1919 and 1929 the money supply doubled. Only about 2% of money is paper money. Most of it is just numbers on a balance sheet.

M2 money supply 1919- $31 billion
M2 money supply 1929- $46 billion

http://www.econdataus.com/cpi_m2.html

True it was higher but not double.

US GDP 1919: $78.3 billion
US GDP 1929: $103.6 billion

So the economy was larger to absorb a lot of that money. http://www.usstuckonstupid.com/sos_downchart.php?year=1900_2010&units=s&chart=gdp&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&title=&color=c

Population also rose 20% during that time.

[HVACTech]

I think the inference there was that high marginal rates do not necessarily correlate to large federal revenues or spending, which I think is what is meant to correlate to a strong middle class for those advancing the Bill Mayer argument.

does this mean I am not strong middle class?

I hate it when that happens....

[Christian Liberty]

The mainstreaming of libertarian ideas sure is a mixed bag. I don't even know who this guy is really, but I do know that Fox wouldn't let an actual ancap on the air for even five minutes. I'd like to think the network is coming around, but I'd need a frontal lobotamy to be that optimistic. Andrew Napolitano (not even an ancap) was relegated to Fox Business up until it became clear he might hurt the Romney blowjob-fest that was Fox last election.

Judge Nap said he was a Rothbardian. I'm pretty sure he is an ancap. Probably more subtle about it than other ancaps, but that doesn't mean he isn't an ancap.

[acptulsa]

Hell, there wouldn't even be an interstate highway system if Eisenhower hadn't needed a way to move troops and materiel efficiently.

You sure about all of that?

No one ever said the U.S. highway system (the white shield roads of which Route 66 was a part) was all about the military, but the government saw the sense in outlining it and the states saw the sense in building it nevertheless.

[acptulsa]

Socialism created the depressions of 1919-1921 and 2008-present, and even if you don't admit that the very progressive Republican Hoover did quite a lot to bring about the Great Depression through his socialistic policies, I don't see how any informed and clear-minded person can argue that socialism deepened and prolonged it.

Scrapping socialism, meanwhile, created the Roaring Twenties. We could sure use another Roaring Twenties...

[kcchiefs6465]

Highest marginal tax rates don't mean much since not many taxpayers actually had to pay them.

They mean a lot. I don't care if it was simply one person who had unlucky fortune enough to be robbed of 9 cents out of every dime he managed. He was still robbed... by a government which professes to rest on consent and solely for the protection of rights, no less.

Most people would say, if I suggested that the government has given itself the authority and has exercised the authority to take 90%+ of someone's earnings (or all of it, for that matter, when considering the principle at play), they'd think I was mistaken on the facts.

[acptulsa]

They mean a lot.

They aren't insignificant. But the fallacy that both Maher and Z2.0 are trying to peddle, but which is purely a lie, is that a high top tax rate is the same thing as socialism. Taxing the snot out of a portion of the population may be something socialists really, really like to do. But socialism isn't specifically robbery. Socialism is specifically micromismanagement. We may have been trying to micromismanage the hell out of Europe during the Marshall Plan years, but the U.S. government was not micromismanaging Americans during that period. Robbing them, yes. Micromismanaging them, no.

[KingNothing]

I wish people, all people, everyone, everywhere, would stop speaking with certainty on matters of economics. The GI Bill certainly did give people immediate access and immediate opportunities. Unions do grant more power to the mass of people. The Federal Reserve did expand the monetary base during the 1920s. The highest tax rate was, for a time, much higher than it is now and few people actually paid it. Additionally, the percentage of income paid in taxes by the median American was much lower back in what we can call "the day." World War 1 and World War 2 certainly did destroy massive swaths of Europe and Asia, leaving America almost entirely untouched and able to rebuild the Old World after each war. Regulations have come and regulations have gone since the dawn of the 20th century. Industries have been born and industries have died. We've had unexpected fuel shortages, dramatic weather events, stock market booms and stock market busts. But what does any of that mean? What effect does all of that have on a "middle class," and what is a middle class anyway? What if 99 percent of the population has 1 percent of the wealth created in a society, but 1 percent of the wealth is enough to afford all needs, wants, pleasures, and joys? What if everyone has an equal share of the wealth, but that wealth isn't even enough avoid hunger pangs at night? What if a society can shoot an equitable middle-ground and provide for everyone, but to do so requires exploitation, coercion, force, and violence?

The question of "what's the best way to improve the middle class," is so boundless that it shouldn't even be asked. I think that we should instead be asking ourselves how can we be more productive, and how can we help others achieve more. "How do we expand the middle class" sounds like a 20th century comment and not one that should be pertinent today. We need to reach a point where we get out of our own way. We need to incrementally scale back or eliminate the things that are very obviously inhibiting us from either being productive or helping others to achieve more. Economic theses and models that try to find an ideal tax rate, or perfect regulation, or most beneficial stimulus package are almost universally nothing more than an agenda-driven propaganda. And if they actually are valid, they're so easily dismissed as propaganda by anyone who disagrees with their assertions that they're meaningless politically. So, I don't care to draw society-wide conclusions based on union participation rates, or monetary base expansion, or marginal tax rates. I just want to be free to be as productive as I was created to be.

[VIDEODROME]

True, but IDK if there would even be a middle class had it not been for the war boom. What say you? The rise of the middle class in Britain happened at ~the same time, so the correlation is quite strong.


I think there may have been a smaller but more stable middle class. I could consider the consequences of War as creating and artificial boom in the economy. I think this started to taper off going into the 1970s. Which makes me wonder if the Vietnam War is ever credited with economic stimulus.

[acptulsa]

True, but IDK if there would even be a middle class had it not been for the war boom. What say you? The rise of the middle class in Britain happened at ~the same time, so the correlation is quite strong.

What war are you talking about?

There has been a sizable middle class in both the U.S. and Great Britain for centuries. Are you saying the British middle class was created by the American Revolution?