California considering plan to replace gas tax with charge per mile driven

[Suzanimal]

California considering plan to replace gas tax with charge per mile driven


More people are driving electric cars. Gasoline cars are getting better mileage. And California's vehicles are causing less pollution.

But all that good news is generating a major problem: As motorists buy less gasoline, state gas tax revenues that pay for roads have been falling for a decade, leading to more potholes and traffic jams.

Now, in a move that could solve the problem -- or cause a political pileup -- state officials have begun to seriously study a plan to replace California's gas tax with a fee for each mile motorists drive.

"We're going to have to find another way to finance the upkeep of the roads," Gov. Jerry Brown said earlier this month in rolling out his 2015 budget, noting that California has a $59 billion backlog of maintenance needs on state highways and bridges.

Brown gave no specifics. But last fall he signed a law that set up a commission to study a "road usage charge" and establish a pilot program by Jan. 1, 2017. The 15-member commission had its first meeting on Friday in Sacramento.

The idea is far from reality, but it's raising a hornet's nest of practical and political questions, from how government would track the miles to what happens when people drive out of state or on private roads.

But it is gaining momentum. This year, Oregon is beginning a test program in which 5,000 volunteers will pay 1.5 cents per mile driven, and be refunded each month what they paid under the state's 30-cent gasoline tax. Colorado and Washington state also are studying similar pilot programs.


"I think there's a long way to go before this is implemented. But we have a real problem when it comes to infrastructure in California," said U.S. Rep. Mark DeSaulnier, D-Richmond, who wrote the bill when he was a state senator. "We have to do something."

Silicon Valley is getting involved early.

The chairman of the California Transportation Commission, which chose the 15 members of the study panel, is Carl Guardino, CEO of the Silicon Valley Leadership Group.

Guardino said he wants the new commission, formally called the California Road Charge Pilot Program Technical Advisory Committee, to explore every angle, and receive wide public and media scrutiny.

"This is a game-changer for transportation policy in our state," he said. "And we better do it right. We will be trampled by innovation if we don't do this right."

Meanwhile, Oregon's transportation department announced this month it has signed a contract with a San Jose company, Azuga, that makes GPS tracking devices that plug in below a vehicle's dashboard.

After an outcry by the public and privacy groups about government potentially tracking the location of vehicles, Oregon changed its test program so that motorists can choose to report their mileage however they want. They can keep their own handwritten diaries, or use a GPS device or some other technology, such as a smartphone app.

"Public concerns, you never get rid of them, they never go away, but you can calm them down if you make the right choices," said James Whitty, who manages the program for the Oregon Department of Transportation.

Speaking at the first meeting on Friday of California's commission studying the issue, Whitty said the key is to provide choices to the public, to protect the privacy of the data and be open about the program with motorists.

The devices Oregon intends to employ track mileage and gasoline consumption. They send the information electronically from the car to private contractors like Azuga, which provides motorists with a monthly bill. The state then refunds drivers for any gas taxes accrued.

Among the critics of the concept are electric car owners.

"I think it's too early to start penalizing electric car drivers," said Felix Kramer, of Berkeley, who owns a Tesla Model S and a Nissan Leaf. "Heavy vehicles take a lot more out of the roads than light vehicles. Electric vehicles are lighter. You have to look at road impacts."

Kramer said the state should raise the gas tax instead.

California leaders say they are open to learning more.

"There are pros, there are cons. We have to pay for roads," said state Senate Minority Leader Bob Huff, R-Diamond Bar. "This is a way that might be part of that. "

California has more than 100,000 electric cars on the road now. That's less than 1 percent of the 23 million cars in the state. But electric vehicles -- whose owners pay no gas tax -- represented 3 percent of new car sales last year. And federal mileage standards on gasoline cars continue to require better fuel efficiency.

As a result, the amount of gasoline sold in California peaked in 2003, at 15.9 billion gallons. It has fallen steadily since then, despite population growth, to 14.6 billion gallons in 2013, a drop of 8 percent. And as people have bought less gasoline, state gas tax revenues have fallen from $2.87 billion in 2003 to $2.62 billion in 2013.

Critics skeptical of government are wary of the new approach.

"They are going to lower the gas tax and introduce the mileage tax," said Don Batyi, with the Inland Empire Car Club Council, which represents more than 4,000 car collectors in Riverside and San Bernardino counties. "I have a strong feeling we won't get a fair shake on this."

California has funded its state and local roads with a gas tax since 1923.

But that state tax, now 36 cents a gallon, hasn't been increased since 1994 due to political opposition. Similarly, the federal gas tax of 18.4 cents a gallon has also remained unchanged for more than two decades, leading to a debate now in Washington, D.C., about whether it should be raised when gas prices are low.

Like cigarette tax revenue that falls as fewer people smoke, the gas tax is a victim of California's success in reducing oil dependency. But California has the most congested freeways in the nation, said state Transportation Secretary Brian Kelly.

"We do want to reduce pollution and greenhouse gases from vehicles. That's a good thing to do," Kelly said. "And it's also a good thing to invest in our infrastructure. We have to find a way to thread the needle and achieve both."

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_27387446/california-considering-plan-replace-gas-tax-charge-per

[angelatc]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

[dannno]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

Ya libertarians love it when the government is tracking your every movement..

[acptulsa]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

Pfft.

To replace a simple tax tied to a substance without which wearing out pavement was once quite difficult, and which you use more of if your vehicle is heavier than most, with the most intrusive, data-gathering, Big Brotheresque system imaginable is a 'libertarian solution'?

Pray, how so...?

[Occam's Banana]

California considering plan to replace append gas tax with charge per mile driven

Fixed it for them.

[Danke]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/monsterhunterfanon/images/9/9c/Wut-babka.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140212003602

[presence]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

1) TAX
2) GOVERNMENT ROADS
3) TRACKING DEVICES

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/009/993/tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg


Libertarian solution is government sells its bridges to the free market and washes its hands of its bullshit pocket lining union maintenance contracts. Then some toll booths pop up and hocus pocus liability sees to it that roads are safe, while hocus pocus profitability means bridges get fixed on the funds set aside to fix them rather than line pockets of union bosses.

[ctiger2]

Why not just increase the gas tax AND institute a mileage tax. :D

Or you could cut spending...

Lets see how many people just leave.

[rg17]

http://www.carlblemming.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/picard-facepalm.jpg

[jclay2]

Maybe Kalifornia should consider cutting spending. Last time I checked, they have some of the highest gas taxes of any state. According to this wiki page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States, california institutes a $.46/gallon tax already. The average gallon of gas costs 2.46 in California.

Here is my mathematical assessment of the situation without considering the regulatory costs that require special blends for different altitudes/temperatures/geographic areas.

Cost for a gallon of gas in california Now = 2.46
Cost after subtracting federal gas tax = 2.46 - 0.18
Cost after subtracting out State tax = 2.46 - 0.18 - .46 = 1.82.
% tax for avg California Driver = State Tax/Untaxed Cost = .46/1.82 = 25%.

These guys can go to hell. 25% isn't enough for these clowns.

[Danke]

ei
Maybe Kalifornia should consider cutting spending. Last time I checked, they have some of the highest gas taxes of any state. According to this wiki page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States, california institutes a $.46/gallon tax already. The average gallon of gas costs 2.46 in California.

Here is my mathematical assessment of the situation without considering the regulatory costs that require special blends for different altitudes/temperatures/geographic areas.

Cost for a gallon of gas in california Now = 2.46
Cost after subtracting federal gas tax = 2.46 - 0.18
Cost after subtracting out State tax = 2.46 - 0.18 - .46 = 1.82.
% tax for avg California Driver = State Tax/Untaxed Cost = .46/1.82 = 25%.

These guys can go to hell. 25% isn't enough for these clowns.

And there climate is rather mild for most of their roads. So they don't require the maintenance as say MN with hot summers and cold winters.

[DamianTV]

I dont think California actually has a Tax Reveune problem, I think they have a SPENDING problem.

Increasing Tax Rates only works to a certain extent. When the Tax Rate is too high, business end up leaving the State or Country completely and actually cause Tax Revenue to drop. Once they've packed up and left, those sources of Tax Revenue pay no taxes what so ever. Why do you think the Fed tries to tax your income even if you go overseas and earn it in a comletely foreign country? While it is possible to have a Tax Rate that is too low, the same exact thing happens when it is too high. And it isnt just Gas Tax, it is the cumulation of ALL taxes paid to the state in its many various forms. It is Property Tax + Gas Tax + Sales Tax + Income Tax + Telephone Tax + Tobacco Tax. Then add in the Fees associated with all the Permits and Fines. The average person in California that once had dreams of setting up their own business has simply found that California is not an ideal state for that business to survive.

Look at Hollywood. Hollywood is normally associated with movies. There are a lot of other jobs in movies that are dependant on the film industry. Special Effects departments are often their own businesses. Others that many forget about like Catering. In film, an entire community basically needs to be built. Everything from housing your cast and crew, feeding them, transportation, medical, payroll, costume wardrobes, props, mechanics, sets, equipment rental for things like gaffers and lighting, sound studios, film development, legal departments, etc. Every detail of not just the big budget movies, but the smaller movies as well spend a crapton of money that supports all the smaller more specialized companies. For example, Universal comes along and produces Transforminators 9 or what ever. Many smaller companies, each with their own dedicated specialization are involved. And when movies are no longer being filmed in California, those businesses suffer as well. Hollywood is considered as "home base" for many films, but these are really only for the giants and usually only known by the greater public because of their recyclable permanent sets. IE Universal, a Comcast Company. The dirty little secret is that less and less movies are being filmed in Hollywood. Perception remains that Hollywood is where most of our blockbuster films come from. Most big budget films actively seek to avoid California at all costs due to the price of doing business. You'll probably find this hard to believe but Georgia is now making more movies than Hollywood. Why? Because Georgia has cut their film related taxes to become friendly to the film industry. It is these smaller shops that you dont know about, the ones that will rent the $100,000 cameras that moved out long ago. The ones that own tons of clothes and rent those clothes for the wardrobe dept to each film. Georgia is the new Hollywood because the cost of doing business in Hollywood has become stupid. As mentioned, a single camera that costs a hundred grand. What isnt mentioned is the expected pay. Production Assistants that live in Hollywood expect to be able to make $35 to $50k a year, but in Georgia, those costs are staggeringly lower. Hollywood moved out of California a long time ago because the costs of the smaller companies has also increased due to a hostile tax base which just serves to increase the total production cost of the movie. This isnt anything new. Film crews are already very very mobile. Pack up one film, then go to another film being shot half way around the world. For film, packing up and moving is easy, and is an expected cost of doing business. And if they run into trouble making their movies in one state, they just move their set to another state and Houston becomes Detroit, Chicago becomes L.A., Podunk Idaho becomes New York. It isnt impossible to open a new business in California, but it certainly is not friendly in any form, to the point that it can be considered Hostile. They are crushing the very foundation upon which their long term financial stability is based upon by putting Tax Revenue ahead of Growth. Oh yeah, and for the Mimimum Wage crowd, increases have only been passed along to the consumers and many have already up and left.

The thing is, it isnt just Hollywood, the cost of living has sent shock waves through every industry in California that can not easily pack up and move. You hear about Silicon Valley all the time, but how much of what is invented in Silicon Valley is manufactured in Taiwan and Hong Kong? Californias problem is very similar to Detroit, but on a state-wide scale. Increasing Taxes on Gas is not gonna help. Now, lets be real. California doesnt give a shit about its tax revenue. They know damn well that increasing Gax Taxes or changing it to Per Mile will not only be even more restrictive to businesses, but it also wont fix the problem. It is a fucking band-aid for a severed limb. In the end, all it will eventually achieve is being even more restrictive to people that do business, and will succeed in driving even more people away. Id swear their real goal is to make logging your mileage as much of a nuisance as possible that people choose to completely surrender their Privacy because it is less inconvenient than to keep a written journal of miles traveled. The only thing that California now sells is your souls to the Federal Government. That is its new Industry. And it is completely unsustainable.

[Rudeman]

Well they need to find a way to pay for that bullet train that no one will use. I'm actually surprised they would even reduce the gas tax.

[Pauls' Revere]

I ride my bike.

[Anti Federalist]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

Oh?

Installing GPS tracking devices into your vehicle in order to let government track every place you go is "liberty"?

Yet another reason I am glad I don't call myself a "libertarian".

*sigh*

This is about control, that is it and that is all.

This is to charge you more to drive into a city, or to drive at certain times, and, ultimately, to prohibit driving at government's whim. All while keeping a hairy eyeball of government surveillance on you.

Per gallon gas taxes are already a "use tax", the more you drive, the more load you haul, the more fuel you burn, the more tax you pay.

[DamianTV]

Oh?

Installing GPS tracking devices into your vehicle in order to let gopvernment track every place you go is "liberty"?

Yet another reason I am glad I don't call myself as "libertarian".

*sigh*

This is about control, that is it and that is all.

Per gallon gas taxes are already a "use tax", the more you drive the more load you haul, the more fuel you burn, the more tax you pay.

Also, Economic Incentive to own a vehicle that is as fuel efficient and "enviornment friendly" as possible.

Anything beyond this is about Control, as stated. How long until "we know where you are" changes to "we will tell you where you are allowed and not allowed to travel"? That, unfortunately will be the inevitable next step, and it may not be enforced by Government alone, but by your Insurance Provider and any who stand to benefit from telling you where you can and can not go. That will evolve into "the new norm". I cant go to your house, the company that I took out a loan from to buy my car says you live in an area that has too high of a crime rate. My employer says I cant visit you because you live next door to a child molestor or drug dealer or witch or Libertarian or Ron Paul Supporter or anyone they deem unworthy. That is the Control that people need to realize and reject. That is the ultimate cost of surrendering your Privacy. Every single action or thought is subject to the approval of someone else, regardless if you consider it to be "right" or "wrong" which are, as always, Subjective to someone elses Terms and Conditions.

[squarepusher]

Seems fairly free market. Government owns the roads, they charge you to use them (per mile fee). Doesn't that make sense?

[acptulsa]

Seems fairly free market. Government owns...

Stop.

Just stop right there.

Lord Almighty.

[Anti Federalist]

I ride my bike.

Rest assured comrade, they will tax and control that as well.

Just give it a little time.

There is no hiding from this, there is no "out", there is no black market, no alternative currency, that is going to save you.

This whole system, and I'm not just talking about gas taxes, I'm talking about the whole bloody mess, will find you.

We have two choices: comply or resist.

There will be no fence sitting in this coming conflict.


A tax on bikes

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/07/nation/la-na-nn-bike-tax-northwest-20130307

[DamianTV]

Seems fairly free market. Government owns the roads, they charge you to use them (per mile fee). Doesn't that make sense?

Dont they already do this with Gasoline? Taxing Gasoline itself also does not require that one disclose for what purposes that gasoline will be used for, or where you intend to travel. Once that information is required, it becomes subject to approval by someone that is not you.

[Anti Federalist]

Stop.

Just stop right there.

Lord Almighty.

No shit...honestly.

[Anti Federalist]

This is already happening in the UK.

And our side will join the fascists in proclaiming that this is, somehow, "free market" policies.


Also, Economic Incentive to own a vehicle that is as fuel efficient and "enviornment friendly" as possible.

Anything beyond this is about Control, as stated. How long until "we know where you are" changes to "we will tell you where you are allowed and not allowed to travel"? That, unfortunately will be the inevitable next step, and it may not be enforced by Government alone, but by your Insurance Provider and any who stand to benefit from telling you where you can and can not go. That will evolve into "the new norm". I cant go to your house, the company that I took out a loan from to buy my car says you live in an area that has too high of a crime rate. My employer says I cant visit you because you live next door to a child molestor or drug dealer or witch or Libertarian or Ron Paul Supporter or anyone they deem unworthy. That is the Control that people need to realize and reject. That is the ultimate cost of surrendering your Privacy. Every single action or thought is subject to the approval of someone else, regardless if you consider it to be "right" or "wrong" which are, as always, Subjective to someone elses Terms and Conditions.

[Occam's Banana]

Seems fairly free market.

Only if you consider to be "free" a "market" in which consumers must pay "usage fees" to a producer with whom competition is not permitted ...


Government owns the roads, they charge you to use them (per mile fee).

How did the government build "their" roads - or from whom did they buy them - and with whose money how acquired?


Doesn't that make sense?

Not really.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Angela used Libertarian with the capital L, connoting the Libertarian Party.

[DamianTV]

This is already happening in the UK.

And our side will join the fascists in proclaiming that this is, somehow, "free market" policies.

Free Market is you and me reaching an agreement. Any outside interference and it is no longer a Free Market.

I would rather be burdened with the risks and responsibilities that are inherit to Freedom than the consequences of Slavery.

[acptulsa]

Angela used Libertarian with the capital L, connoting the Libertarian Party.

Can't be.

The LP never solved anything. The only time it's ever involved in a solution is when it's watering its principles down to suit someone like Bob Barr.

[Anti Federalist]

"Currently motorists are paying to use their cars on the roads while they are actually driving their cars," Orcutt wrote to Carlson. "At the same time, they are paying for bike lanes because there is no gas tax -- or any transportation tax -- generated by the act of riding a bike on the roadways."

Orcutt concluded, "I do think that bicyclists need to start paying for the roads they ride on rather than make motorists pay."

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/07/nation/la-na-nn-bike-tax-northwest-20130307

[Pauls' Revere]

Rest assured comrade, they will tax and control that as well.

Just give it a little time.

There is no hiding from this, there is no "out", there is no black market, no alternative currency, that is going to save you.

This whole system, and I'm not just talking about gas taxes, I'm talking about the whole bloody mess, will find you.

We have two choices: comply or resist.

There will be no fence sitting in this coming conflict.


A tax on bikes

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/07/nation/la-na-nn-bike-tax-northwest-20130307

Good Lord. Seems the only way out is to leave, but to where?

[Feeding the Abscess]

Can't be.

The LP never solved anything. The only time it's ever involved in a solution is when it's watering its principles down to suit someone like Bob Barr.

The LP was for gay marriage before the democratic party was. The LP hasn't accomplished anything on its own, but some ideas that it has held have eventually made their way into the mainstream.

[Slave Mentality]

"Mr. Mentality, we see that you only drove home and back here since last year's tribute to the state. 20 miles the whole year. Is this correct? "

"Yeeeeeeppp..... "

Will be like an ankle bracelet probably. Get enforcers sent to your house for tampering kids! Fuck em all.

[Anti Federalist]

Good Lord. Seems the only way out is to leave, but to where?

Nowhere.

This system is going world wide.

In another 20 years there will not be a square inch of earth that will not be under surveillance.

Comply or Resist.

[Suzanimal]

"I do think that bicyclists need to start paying for the roads they ride on rather than make motorists pay."

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/07/nation/la-na-nn-bike-tax-northwest-20130307

FFS...

[Chester Copperpot]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

Whats happened to you??

First its freaking out that anti-vaccine people are nuts..

then its Vitamin C isnt good for you..


Now its a pay-per-mile tax is libertarian??

Who are you and what have you done with the real Angelatc???

[squarepusher]

Whats happened to you??

First its freaking out that anti-vaccine people are nuts..

then its Vitamin C isnt good for you..


Now its a pay-per-mile tax is libertarian??

Who are you and what have you done with the real Angelatc???

Isn't it obvious? Lets say the roads were owned by a private owner (libertarian), that owner would allow you to use their roads for a toll or a fee. IT could be a toll road or it could be pay per mile (with new technology this makes traditional toll booth obsolete). This is what is being proposed.

I don't understand what the objection here is :) Do you think you would get free roads in a libertarian society?

[Chester Copperpot]

Isn't it obvious? Lets say the roads were owned by a private owner (libertarian), that owner would allow you to use their roads for a toll or a fee. IT could be a toll road or it could be pay per mile (with new technology this makes traditional toll booth obsolete). This is what is being proposed.

I don't understand what the objection here is :) Do you think you would get free roads in a libertarian society?

The problem is the roads ARENT owned by a private owner.

[puppetmaster]

I dont like it ...but it will be the "norm" in order to tax hydrogen powered cars

[squarepusher]

The problem is the roads ARENT owned by a private owner.
it still makes sense.

Previously, gas taxes were used to pay for roads/maintenance. However, not all cars use gas anymore, so a per mile/car tax would more accurately represent this so gas cars aren't overly taxed. I'm surprise green California is doing this you would think they want to punish gas users more than elec folks.

[jbauer]

The government isn't going to surrender the roads. So....

How do you propose we pay for them if not through a gas tax?

I'd also like to see the books audited to show how much of the current tax is being used on roads and how much is being spent on other stuff.

You've got cars going further on less. Cars not using gas at all. Material costs skyrocketing. Gov employees thinking they need more pay.

Unenviable position.

[nobody's_hero]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

Actually it's pretty stupid. If anything, it should be weight-based.

I can ride 20,000 miles on a crotch-rocket motorcycle and probably do less damage and wear to the road as if I were driving a pickup truck 500 miles.

Which makes me agree with the next poster who implied it has more to do with tracking movement than patching potholes.

[nobody's_hero]

Seems fairly free market. Government owns the roads, they charge you to use them (per mile fee). Doesn't that make sense?

So the government bought the roads with its own money? I think you're missing a vital participant in the transaction.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

They did a huge construction project where I live, and I almost live in the sticks. I see nary a car on this road. I asked this merchant friend if the traffic improved his business, and he said no.

There is no shortage of money now for such things. They just waste it.

[phill4paul]

The "liberty lovers" that agree with this will change their tune when they come under investigation because GPS shows them in the vicinity of a certain crime. It is just another tool for the government to track everyone's whereabouts. Period. There is, and has always been, enough money to take care of the road system if the revenue collected for it had been spent on it. Instead of...everything else.

[ghengis86]

If it is NOT about control, why not an odometer check at yearly registration? Oh that's right; maximum revenue extraction and control while allowing the absolute minimum illusions of "freedom" to keep the sheep from turning on their masters.

[osan]

This is actually a Libertarian solution.

This is actually just another wrong conclusion.

What crap. Consider this:


"Public concerns, you never get rid of them, they never go away, but you can calm them down if you make the right choices," said James Whitty, who manages the program for the Oregon Department of Transportation.


No mention of what that really means, given "right" predicates upon the goal in question, which is not stated. It could be any of quite a few things.

Nobody is putting such a device into my vehicle. If they do, I will sheathe it in a Faraday cage. Let's see what they have to say about that.

[Weston White]

This is actually Libertarian liberal solution.

FTFY

[oyarde]

Current fuel taxes should be enough .If not , you need better employees .

[squarepusher]

Current fuel taxes should be enough .If not , you need better employees .

I think the problem is, eletric cars and hybrids don't use or use less gas. So those greenies aren't paying for their "share" of the road. As I mentioned above, considering how "green" California claims to be, I am surprised they are cracking down on greenies, you would think they would have just raised the gas tax on the gas drivers to cover that.

[acptulsa]

I think the problem is, eletric cars and hybrids don't use or use less gas. So those greenies aren't paying for their "share" of the road. As I mentioned above, considering how "green" California claims to be, I am surprised they are cracking down on greenies, you would think they would have just raised the gas tax on the gas drivers to cover that.

Oh, come on. You act like the media would talk about the environment 24 hours a day if there was no money in it.

[Chester Copperpot]

The "liberty lovers" that agree with this will change their tune when they come under investigation because GPS shows them in the vicinity of a certain crime. It is just another tool for the government to track everyone's whereabouts. Period. There is, and has always been, enough money to take care of the road system if the revenue collected for it had been spent on it. Instead of...everything else.

THIS