Can you name a pyramid scheme that was pushed within the Liberty movement?

[IanCioffi]

I'm compiling a list of pyramid schemes that have been pushed within the Liberty movement.

So far I have
The Ron Paul Card
Manatech
Neon Energy

If you can think of any others please reply with the company name. Bonus points if you can name the folks who pushed them.

Gracias

[dannno]

Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, though some people would claim it is.

[dannno]

There was also a grass-fed protein powder MLM that was being promoted by some top people in the liberty movement. It was supposed to be used to help fund the liberty movement as a whole.

MLM are not technically all pyramid schemes, keep in mind.

[DamianTV]

Social Security?
The Federal Reserve Bank?

Oh, those are things that anyone with two partially functional brain cells can rub together to recognize as Total Ponzi. I am not aware of very many, but they will always exist. Now just get five people to mail me $100 bucks a month and the next level of of my multi level marketing will allow you to do the same! :P

[dannno]

Now just get five people to mail me $100 bucks a month and the next level of of my multi level marketing will allow you to do the same! :P

Well the thing is if the MLM provides good products and services at a fair price, then they can actually be good things. Essentially, instead of paying television and billboards to advertise your product you pay customers to spread it via word of mouth. That is a service that is worth paying for by the company. New customers are always going to help pay the company's marketing budget and some companies can be successful that way.

It is when a company requires new members constantly in order to remain profitable and doesn't provide goods and services at a reasonable price so the products stop moving to end-customers...that is when it becomes clear it is a pyramid scheme.

[Keith and stuff]

Isagenix was pushed by Doug Wead. http://www.libertynetworkers.com/index.html

[dannno]

Isagenix was pushed by Doug Wead. http://www.libertynetworkers.com/index.html

Yep, that was what I was referring to.

[angelatc]

Isagenix was pushed by Doug Wead. http://www.libertynetworkers.com/index.html

Also Israel Anderson.

[Tod]

Also Israel Anderson.

....and, iirc, Ronny Paul.


Haven't heard about that for a while.

[idiom]

Minarchism.
Intial Cryptocurrency runs before they mature...
Starting to think Free stating might be one...

There was also that plan to build a Ron Paul Pyramid in Vegas in 2008...

[fr33]

Also Israel Anderson.

Matt Collins was an apologist for it too.

[DamianTV]

Well the thing is if the MLM provides good products and services at a fair price, then they can actually be good things. Essentially, instead of paying television and billboards to advertise your product you pay customers to spread it via word of mouth. That is a service that is worth paying for by the company. New customers are always going to help pay the company's marketing budget and some companies can be successful that way.

It is when a company requires new members constantly in order to remain profitable and doesn't provide goods and services at a reasonable price so the products stop moving to end-customers...that is when it becomes clear it is a pyramid scheme.

He he he, that was kind of the point! I didnt offer anything, I just said "give me money" then get your friends to give me money too! Absolutely nothing in exchange for giving me money, not even a courtesy reach-around! How is that not just the bestest way to make money, evarr?

[thoughtomator]

Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, though some people would claim it is.

It's more of a pump-and-dump scheme, really. Just look at that price history:

https://www.coinbase.com/charts

I challenge you to find any non-scam investment, commodity, or currency with a similar price history. Arguing over what kind of scam it is, precisely, is quite moot.

Told you all way back in the day (before that first huge spike) that this was destined to end in tears, and here we are.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Your job:


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvF8GTK72s6bAgCwe3jkdVFAw7I7KpI 0RzZbTcoJD1SINmllii

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Well the thing is if the MLM provides good products and services at a fair price, then they can actually be good things. Essentially, instead of paying television and billboards to advertise your product you pay customers to spread it via word of mouth. That is a service that is worth paying for by the company. New customers are always going to help pay the company's marketing budget and some companies can be successful that way.

It is when a company requires new members constantly in order to remain profitable and doesn't provide goods and services at a reasonable price so the products stop moving to end-customers...that is when it becomes clear it is a pyramid scheme.



This.

And--government is one of the biggest pyramid schemes of all-time. They have also spread that notion among Americans with regulatory bodies. People in other countries conduct business through more informal networking. It's simply the word of mouth that economists, marketers, etc. consider to be the best form of advertising. A popular notion of Americans, for example, is if you don't have specific peer reviewed research backing you up, then you're a scammer.

A little off topic, but I once had a boss who never made a move without consulting research in sources like Harvard business journals. This management wanted me to read the literature to supervise better. I told them the research was ivory tower and not real world. I told them to use their head about leadership and stop being a dipshit. I got fired.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Now just get five people to mail me $100 bucks a month and the next level of of my multi level marketing will allow you to do the same! :P

I was introduced to this pyramid scheme for the first time when working my second job in a grocery. The produce manager talked about a meeting he had that day. This pyramid group actually exchanged the money during their meetings. Wanted to get me involved. Duh.

[AuH20]

Bitcoin is not a pyramid scheme, though some people would claim it is.

It just attracted the wrong people which produced this fluctuation.

[muh_roads]

It's more of a pump-and-dump scheme, really. Just look at that price history:

https://www.coinbase.com/charts

I challenge you to find any non-scam investment, commodity, or currency with a similar price history. Arguing over what kind of scam it is, precisely, is quite moot.

Told you all way back in the day (before that first huge spike) that this was destined to end in tears, and here we are.

There are plenty of markets out there that act like Bitcoin in terms of percentage moves and elliot waves, plus many other patterns. If you came to the presence thread you could learn about them all. Double-tops, double-bottoms, red dragons, etc.

I first started talking about Bitcoin here and telling ppl to take a chance when the price was $30. If the big spike you are referring to was April 2013, then you are still very much ahead.

Free market trading is not a scam. Markets breathe. They inhale and they exhale. Bag transferring is a better term. All markets are like this.

[kcchiefs6465]

It's more of a pump-and-dump scheme, really. Just look at that price history:

https://www.coinbase.com/charts

I challenge you to find any non-scam investment, commodity, or currency with a similar price history. Arguing over what kind of scam it is, precisely, is quite moot.

Told you all way back in the day (before that first huge spike) that this was destined to end in tears, and here we are.
I was being told to get in when it was 30 dollars a coin.

Many others bought at dollars, or pennies per BTC.

Many others bought when it was eighty or a hundred.

When it goes below thirty I'll quit kicking myself that I didn't grab a couple just for the hell of it. Plus it does have some benefits, I suppose.

[69360]

Isagenics felt sleazy to me.

Bitcoin seems more of a pump and dump than a pyramid.

[presence]

I was almost talked into that isogenics thing by israel anderson... I didn't pursue and I'm glad.

I did get talked into bitcoin. By several members here and I've enjoyed every minute of the ride:

I definately have several tangible things (including this computer) I didn't have before bitcoin.
I still have every bitcoin I ever bought and then some.
And I've long since paid myself back for the initial investment.
And I learned coffeescript and python.

[thoughtomator]

There are plenty of markets out there that act like Bitcoin in terms of percentage moves and elliot waves, plus many other patterns.

Name one.

[presence]

Name one.

https://bitcoin.org/img/faq/price_chart.png

http://goldratefortoday.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/gold-chart-71-present.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e1/Nasdaq_historical_graph.svg/800px-Nasdaq_historical_graph.svg.png

http://g.fool.com/editorial/images/33649/ycharts_chart-7_large.png

http://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/screen-shot-2013-03-02-at-11-31-55-am.png
http://i58.tinypic.com/a9pk5w.png

[thoughtomator]

Show me something with a 2-month, 1000% move like Bitcoin had... and I'll show you a bubble that ruined everyone who touched it. There is a radical difference in both the timescale and the amount of price change. Oh, and your Bitcoin chart ends with a price that's two and a half times today's price, which was all of four months ago.

Matching the chart with ruinous bubble behavior is not a confidence-builder.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I know next to nothing about Bitcoin. Does anybody have a long term chart? Guess I could look it up, but there are probably people here who could post an accurate chart in 10 seconds. Would a graph like this be an accurate representation?

Seems to me that Bitcoin is an endeavor that depends on increasing consensus. Seems like that is happening. I just can't wrap my head around how some of the value is extracted by someone figuring out algorithms. Maybe I'm too dense for it.

[thoughtomator]

I posted the coinbase link above. Just click "All" for the time frame and you'll see it from the very start.

If you bought the NASDAQ at the very peak of the bubble, then sold 30 months later at the nadir, you lost 75%-80% of your investment.

If you bought Bitcoin at the peak of its bubble, then sold today which is 13 months later (and almost certainly not the bottom), you lost over 80% of your investment.

More bubblicous than the Fed-induced tech bubble, both in duration and in magnitude - I am completely baffled why any person aware of the Fed's abuses wouldn't run screaming from this.

[kcchiefs6465]

I was almost talked into that isogenics thing by israel anderson... I didn't pursue and I'm glad.

I did get talked into bitcoin. By several members here and I've enjoyed every minute of the ride:

I definately have several tangible things (including this computer) I didn't have before bitcoin.
I still have every bitcoin I ever bought and then some.
And I've long since paid myself back for the initial investment.
And I learned coffeescript and python.
You were the one that kept telling me to buy. I should have listened.

Not that I kid myself that I'd have made a killing, but it would have been good experience nonetheless. I would have sold at seventy but no doubt would have kept a few. I probably would have cashed out completely by $200 but who knows.

[kcchiefs6465]

I posted the coinbase link above. Just click "All" for the time frame and you'll see it from the very start.

If you bought the NASDAQ at the very peak of the bubble, then sold 30 months later at the nadir, you lost 75%-80% of your investment.

If you bought Bitcoin at the peak of its bubble, then sold today which is 13 months later (and almost certainly not the bottom), you lost over 80% of your investment.

More bubblicous than the Fed-induced tech bubble, both in duration and in magnitude - I am completely baffled why any person aware of the Fed's abuses wouldn't run screaming from this.
Well to be fair, there are some benefits of BTC.

I don't own any, never have owned any, probably will never own any and was one of the biggest critics of BTC.

I am not worried by what people find valuable. Your advice is fine and I'd say even probably correct in the long run. But if people want BTC, and liberty minded folks made a little bit of FRNs from it (to hopefully spread about in meaningful ways), meh, -- More power to 'em.

[PaulConventionWV]

Pyramid schemes and Ponzi schemes are different. Pyramid schemes are sometimes called multi-level marketing. Didn't Doug Wead plug a pyramid scheme one time? I forget what it was about, but I remember him mentioning as a way to make "extra income."

EDIT: Isagenix. Keith and stuff beat me to it.

[PaulConventionWV]

Minarchism.
Intial Cryptocurrency runs before they mature...
Starting to think Free stating might be one...

There was also that plan to build a Ron Paul Pyramid in Vegas in 2008...

You're just naming things you think are bad ideas, not schemes, per se. There is a very specific definition for both pyramid and Ponzi schemes and I know minarchism doesn't fit either one.

[fr33]

What I'd like to have seen, when it was being proposed, is a video of Ron Paul being asked about what he thinks of Isagenix. Especially back when his son and former employee were starting to promote it. We ask the "hard questions" here in the liberty movement except for when it is convenient. That was such a scam. I wonder where they got the idea of doing that...

[PaulConventionWV]

I know next to nothing about Bitcoin. Does anybody have a long term chart? Guess I could look it up, but there are probably people here who could post an accurate chart in 10 seconds. Would a graph like this be an accurate representation?

Seems to me that Bitcoin is an endeavor that depends on increasing consensus. Seems like that is happening. I just can't wrap my head around how some of the value is extracted by someone figuring out algorithms. Maybe I'm too dense for it.

Not someone, but something. It's just part of the hash. The hash is just a unique identifier that is come up with by solving math problems. The only relevant part is that it is unique and there is only one of it. These are often used for other purposes, but in the case of bitcoin, it simply exists and the fact that it is unique allows it to represent a store of value.

That's my best attempt at explaining it without looking it up. At least that's what I got from it.

[muh_roads]

http://goldratefortoday.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/gold-chart-71-present.png

I was so pissed at myself for not selling silver @ $45 in 2011. I was very close to pulling the trigger. Would've tripled the money since getting in 2008. That mini 2009 crash was a blessing. Kinda like BTC below $200 right now.

[IanCioffi]

Isagenix was pushed by Doug Wead. http://www.libertynetworkers.com/index.html

what about Mountain Hours?

[IanCioffi]

or I should say the "hours" currency

[fr33]

what about Mountain Hours?

I don't know if I'd include that. That was an agorist currency only available to people in a certain location. My hometown does a similar thing in order to promote local businesses. It doesn't seem to be a pyramid scheme.

[Bryan]

Just a reminder to everyone, while this subject is fair game for discussion please keep it factional and without attacks on individuals.

Thank you.

[Bryan]

Well to be fair, there are some benefits of BTC.

Some BTC commentary- the key benefit that I see of BTC is that it offers a means of free market exchange in a society where the government can otherwise control all other such exchanges. It's a way to circumvent tyranny, and that's why it is supported here.

[fr33]

Just a reminder to everyone, while this subject is fair game for discussion please keep it factional and without attacks on individuals.

Thank you.Aww man am I gonna have to read the rules? I'd rather not. Criticizing someone is not an attack.

*Edit: I'm rereading the posts and it's like, what are you talking about? Nobody attacked anybody.

[presence]

Show me something with a 2-month, 1000% move like Bitcoin had... and I'll show you a bubble that ruined everyone who touched it. There is a radical difference in both the timescale and the amount of price change. Oh, and your Bitcoin chart ends with a price that's two and a half times today's price, which was all of four months ago.

Matching the chart with ruinous bubble behavior is not a confidence-builder.

I think you just lack some basic understanding of fractaline log growth. BTC has had 7 "bubbles".



http://i59.tinypic.com/23kdav9.png


are you going to say IBM was a bad buy at $80?

http://www.investmentu.com/assets/images/content/2008/02/20060724iua.gif


It went from $5 to $140 in 5 years.

[NewRightLibertarian]

LIFE Leadership is marketed to liberty-oriented people. Here is more info about it.

https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/life-ids-analysis-2012-2013/
http://amthrax.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/heathers-just-came-to-ex-team-qa/#more-4739
http://amthrax.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/ex-team-qa-former-turbo-25-p-j-talks-about-his-recent-departure/
http://amthrax.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/ex-team-reader-qa-susan-lovelace-teamlife-statement/

Run by a known Amtrak pusher and "MLM" veteran:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html

Big time scam IMO, and diverts much needed time, energy and resources from potential activists and puts them into a dangerous dead end. Pisses me off to no end

[andy2044]

Wasn't there a diet thing pushed by Doug Wead and THE JUDGE? I'm trying to lose weight, so anything that can make the Judge lose that much weight, I'm all for.

[muh_roads]

Some BTC commentary- the key benefit that I see of BTC is that it offers a means of free market exchange in a society where the government can otherwise control all other such exchanges. It's a way to circumvent tyranny, and that's why it is supported here.

This is the very reason I got involved. I first took notice of Bitcoin in 2011 when Mastercard & Visa decided to deny Wikileaks the ability to get funding. So Assange turned to Bitcoin. I didn't buy yet, but I was fascinated and kept reading about it. As it was tumbling to $2 that year I slowly stopped thinking about it. Big mistake.

Then the US Government imposed economic sanctions on Iran. Unfairly hurting the people of Iran who didn't deserve such an authoritarian act on a country that doesn't belong to us in the first place. Incredibly disgusting attempt to instigate a war for the benefit of a few in the military manufacturing industry.

Then I came across this article and remembered all the stuff I read about Bitcoin again. After reading that and remembering my old research, I was so impressed that I bought in.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-29/dollar-less-iranians-discover-virtual-currency

I don't know if Bitcoin is the savior from central banking. I do know it makes Governments squirm. If communist countries tried to ban me, I'd wear it like a badge of honor.

[Scrooge McDuck]

Wasn't there a diet thing pushed by Doug Wead and THE JUDGE? I'm trying to lose weight, so anything that can make the Judge lose that much weight, I'm all for.

The Doug Wead thing has already been mentioned. I'm not sure but I think the Judge lost weight going paleo like Tom Woods did. I could be wrong though.

Edit: I was wrong. Apparently he lost weight using some factor4 shake thing which does indeed sound similar to the whole Doug Wead thing. However Tom Woods certainly lost his weight by eating paleo.

[Keith and stuff]

Starting to think Free stating might be one...

As in the Free State Project or something else? If you mean the FSP, please share more :)

[PRB]

Liberty Dollar / NORFED
Silver Snowball
Yougetgold https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffbrehm