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View Full Version : An Open Letter to People Who Think the Police Accountability Movement is Built on Hate




Cissy
12-26-2014, 05:29 PM
December 23, 2014

(TheAntiMedia) This is a message to Allen Clifton, co-founder of Forward Progressives, and anyone else who labels the police accountability movement dangerous and hateful. Us ‘anti-government activists’ as you called us, protesters, cop watchers, cop blockers, members of the civil rights movement; we are not hate groups as you recently proclaimed, despite being thoroughly told you are wrong in the comment section of your own article. You join the ranks of other “journalists” like Bill O’Reilly who recently attacked Cop Block and others who film the police.

You just made the declaration that the motivation for our work comes from hate. You say Cop Block is a hate group and not a police accountability group, but i am writing this to break down the simple reason why we, and the millions of people who think this way, understand that the government and police are something that should be opposed. We do not want police accountability because we hate the police, we want it because we are opposed to hate.

You also insulted the intelligence of liberals, your own supposed constituents I presume, saying in your article:

“A few months ago I wrote an article warning liberals that they were being duped by many of these so-called “police accountability” websites and Facebook pages. I explained that by buying into their propaganda, these liberals were basically supporting radical anti-government right-wing groups. What these various organizations try to do is attempt to hide their contempt for government behind their supposed desire to “hold police officers accountable.” But their clear disdain for law enforcement is just a part of their overall intense hatred of authority and the government.

Perhaps the most well-known of all of these groups is Cop Block. On Facebook, they list themselves under the category of an “Education Website,” which is absolute nonsense. They’re not out to educate, inform or hold anyone accountable – they’re out to slander police officers”

Well, first of all Cop Block is not right wing, or left. Second, it’s fueled by a detailed collective understanding of the dysfunctional and overall negative effect the police and government have on our people. Insulting the intelligence of people reading content on Cop Block as if they have no ability to make decisions for themselves perfectly illustrates your disconnection from reality and predisposition to support government, despite it being dysfunctional and immoral.

But perhaps most importantly, you apparently don’t know the definition of ‘slander’.

Cop Block and us here at The Anti-Media, we do not publish things about the police or government that are not true . Ever. Therefore, that’s not slander, you don’t know what you’re taking about. Not only that, but you just said something untrue about Cop Block. That is the actual definition of slander!

Our views as ‘anti-government’ activists come from much knowledge, much research, much effort to understand everything. For example, we research statistics on casualties from the US Government, and we track their crimes and report on them to illustrate the true nature of the US Government.

If they did nothing wrong, we would have nothing to write about. Of course personally we don’t just cover negative or controversial things at The Anti-Media, but my point is this; once a person starts critically thinking, questioning standards, they open up doors and start to believe things that don’t vibe well with previous false preconceived notions.

Allen, it seems like you are stuck with cognitive dissonance, and you have some form of illogical bias to support the US Government, with no regard for whether or not supporting them will result in a more prosperous future for you and your family, your kids, my kids, and all the rest of us.

We are here to tell you the facts about corruption, expose the crimes of powerful people and police who they command, for nothing more than the betterment of our society. It’s just a better place to live in when police aren’t killing unarmed, innocent people with impunity. It’s that simple, but you had to claim it was ‘hate’.

If you would look at this from the right perspective, you would see more people every day are agreeing upon being ‘anti-government’ because government in America is downright malicious, corrupt, overbearing, murderous, and war mongering. That’s the pattern when a government is corrupt, it’s incredibly simple.

Isn’t it the duty of the people of a society to oppose anything that bears those characteristics and functions to destroy peace and prosperity? If you really want to claim the US Government does not bear all the characteristics of a wolf in sheep’s clothing, there are indisputable facts, incidents, previous actions of the US government and police, that illustrate a long history of downright immorality. These are the facts that separate our detailed perspectives from yours.

Those of us who you call ‘anti-government’, most of us are simply individuals who took extra time to read about history, read about things, and we came to the logical conclusion that the US government and most current police have a consistently negative impact on society. What do you possibly think you know about us?

What we do as activists is not simply spew hatred like you claim, (or spew hatred towards other organizations randomly like you just did) but we are truly, genuinely looking to better the world we live in, and that involves opposing greed, malice, corruption, and violence no matter where it originates.

Right now, a new generation is coming of age, and this generation (that I am a part of), did not grow up with the kind of propaganda you did.

Obviously mainstream media causes cognitive dissonance, and disconnection from reality, which is required to support authority while completely disregarding the morality of that authority. Does it benefit our society to embellish and trust that authority? No, we never really saw the era of time you did, where there mainstream media had substantial power to warp issues and convince people to support the US government.

Instead, we grew up in an era of the internet, where we always had the ability to fact check and logically destroy preconceived notions, stereotypes, biases, ect.

We are a generation that witnessed the wars of aggression in the Middle East at an early age, and saw the malicious, parasitic nature of government in circumstances that allowed us to truly, truly understand them, to clearly see the true moral character of the establishment and government. At least right now I am speaking for my generation, Cop Blockers span all generations and demographics.

We became ‘anti-government’ through objective analysis of the governments actions, it is that simple. Do you not oppose something once you realize it incarcerates non violent people, kills thousands of innocent children in the middle east with drones, and commits unfathomable, unspeakable atrocity after atrocity, with impunity, while convincing people like you that it’s okay?

For you to support the US government, and completely overlook the reasons why we believe what we do, you have to ignore every single crime committed by the government. To disregard our hard earned perspectives and ‘anti government’ beliefs, you have to disregard all US drone strikes that killed innocent children, the incredible amount of people incarcerated for decades for non violent crimes, and every instance of injustice.

If we were to debate on the morality of the US Government, I would calmly shut down every last argument you could possibly fathom, and I would present you with irrefutable evidence of the immorality and general parasitic nature of the government because it needs to be changed for the betterment of our society, our children, and our children’s children.

At that point in this hypothetical debate, you would have no choice but to openly say you still support the US Government despite every instance of them inflicting unfathomable pain on innocent human beings, or you would have to change your opinion. It is at this point that you would probably not change your opinion, as people tend to do when they are stuck with a mental illness called cognitive dissonance.

So, that’s a little breakdown of why we believe what we do. We do not just trust the status quo or general consensus on issues, we think freely; critical thinking, it’s not taught in public school. We tend to form our own opinions rather than stick with some vague standard that allows for corruption, death, abuse of power, and countless other negative things for our society.

No matter how much you want to write about how we are filled with hate, or that we’re unreasonable, no one is going to believe you except the few who are just as deluded as you.

Want proof of this? Just look at the comments on the two articles you wrote slandering our movement. Almost none of them agree with you; almost all of them understand the simple things I am trying to get across to you with this article.

The fact is, the US government has more people incarcerated than any regime in the history of the world. If you did not know that fact, do some research on the prison industrial complex. Do some research, and understand the full scope of our collective situation with abusive police who kill with impunity, understand the full scope of the situation with corruption in America, understand how the families of people needlessly killed by police feel, and understand every single thing that we have painstakingly set out to learn and understand.

It requires an ability to completely change your opinions, in favor of new facts and information, admitting you are wrong when you are proven to be wrong, to go from supporting the US Government, to understanding their detrimental negative effect on our society and how we need to change that.

So, delving into the realm of possibility after a person understands the US Government is inherently immoral and toxic to the prosperity of people not just in our country but all over the world;

What do we actually want to do about all of this police brutality, and the government?

That is up for debate. Some want to see the federal government and state governments be completely shut down in favor of community rule, like the towns in Southwestern Mexico (who have had excellent, excellent results with community rule).

We all have different philosophical ideas of an ideal society, as ‘anti-government’ activists, but overall what we wish to replace the US Government (or not replace them) with is up for debate. If you ask any ‘anti-government’ activist or cop blocker what their ideal version of a society should be, you should expect a long and detailed answer.

See, while it’s pretty inconsequential what you believe about us, I’m going to respond to your efforts to slander us because that can’t just be ignored. I would like to take the opportunity to express what we are really about; we are about depth, thinking, acting with the most defined of intentions, improving our society and seeking prosperity and peace for our families and people just like anyone else.

I wrote this to help people like you, who misunderstand the movement, to see that there is a depth to what we are doing that goes far beyond your perception of it.

We are thinkers, philosophers, activists and people concerned for the state of our society and world.

We are not blindly hateful people, like you disrespectfully alluded to in your two articles about us, and I hope that has just been made abundantly clear.

To everyone who agrees, please share this with absolutely as many people as possible.

This article is free and open source. You have permission to republish this article under a Creative Commons license with attribution to the author and TheAntiMedia.org. Tune-in to The Anti-Media radio show Monday-Friday @ 11pm EST, 8pm PST.

http://theantimedia.org/forward-progressives-call-cop-block-hate-group-detailed-rebuttal-ill-conceived-slandering/

ChristianAnarchist
12-26-2014, 08:58 PM
"The enforcers" don't have to be held to any "standard"...

Crashland
12-26-2014, 11:45 PM
This is all well and good, but whoever wrote this can't speak for the entire "movement". The author goes on to observe that "we" have a wide range of philosophical ideas, but is still happy to generalize that "we" are not unreasonable or hateful.

69360
12-27-2014, 08:07 AM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

This is an issue pumped up by the left wing media for reasons yet unknown, but probably nefarious.

pcosmar
12-27-2014, 08:29 AM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

This is an issue pumped up by the left wing media for reasons yet unknown, but probably nefarious.

I expect the odds of that increasing to statistically relevant levels.

http://www.restorationradionetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/militarized_police.jpg

otherone
12-27-2014, 08:42 AM
Allen Clifton, co-founder of Forward Progressives, and anyone else who labels the police accountability movement dangerous and hateful.


http://www.restorationradionetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/militarized_police.jpg

"FORWARD, PROGRESSIVES!"

fisharmor
12-27-2014, 08:50 AM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

This is an issue pumped up by the left wing media for reasons yet unknown, but probably nefarious.

Also, a statistically irrelevant number of people has died as a result of nuclear weapons.

I suspect that probably does not factor at all into your opinion of Iran.

69360
12-27-2014, 08:59 AM
Also, a statistically irrelevant number of people has died as a result of nuclear weapons.

I suspect that probably does not factor at all into your opinion of Iran.

I have a good opinion of Iran, no problem with them at all. Makes sense for them to get a nuke, all their neighbors do.

69360
12-27-2014, 09:01 AM
I expect the odds of that increasing to statistically relevant levels.



That is certainly possible.

kcchiefs6465
12-27-2014, 09:35 AM
I have a good opinion of Iran, no problem with them at all. Makes sense for them to get a nuke, all their neighbors do.
And North Korea?

The amount of people affected by super-EMPs is statistically insignificant.

specsaregood
12-27-2014, 09:45 AM
Everything is a freaking "movement" nowadays.

Cleaner44
12-27-2014, 09:45 AM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

This is an issue pumped up by the left wing media for reasons yet unknown, but probably nefarious.

Ron Paul and I disagree with you.

3558

Slave Mentality
12-27-2014, 10:18 AM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

This is an issue pumped up by the left wing media for reasons yet unknown, but probably nefarious.

I suspect that the fucked over by cop statistic is much, much higher. Dead folks can't bitch. That's why we should be.

How about the incarceration per capita statistic? More left wing pumping? It goes way beyond just getting killed by them for a lot of people screaming from the roof tops out there.

PaulConventionWV
12-27-2014, 10:42 AM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

This is an issue pumped up by the left wing media for reasons yet unknown, but probably nefarious.

Math's wrong. Half of .003% is .0015%, not .00015.

Anyway, I think you're completely missing the point. How bad does it have to be before you're willing to stand up against it? Nobody expects millions to be killed by cops, but to say that .003% of 330 million people is irrelevant is just stupid.

Because even if it is just .003%, we all know this stuff happens every single day in this country, and it happens to everyone, regardless of who they are or whether they've committed any crimes. It could happen to you for absolutely no reason. Then would you think that .003% was "irrelevant"?

That doesn't even take into account all the people who get beaten, harassed or kidnapped illegally by the police without being killed on a daily basis. What about them?

69360
12-27-2014, 01:21 PM
And North Korea?

The amount of people affected by super-EMPs is statistically insignificant.

I have no problem with NK having a nukes and EMP. Let's hope our government doesn't push NK into using them.

69360
12-27-2014, 01:28 PM
Math's wrong. Half of .003% is .0015%, not .00015.

Anyway, I think you're completely missing the point. How bad does it have to be before you're willing to stand up against it? Nobody expects millions to be killed by cops, but to say that .003% of 330 million people is irrelevant is just stupid.

Because even if it is just .003%, we all know this stuff happens every single day in this country, and it happens to everyone, regardless of who they are or whether they've committed any crimes. It could happen to you for absolutely no reason. Then would you think that .003% was "irrelevant"?

That doesn't even take into account all the people who get beaten, harassed or kidnapped illegally by the police without being killed on a daily basis. What about them?

It's still a tiny fraction of a percent who get harassed or beatdown.

I think it's stupid to make a big deal or have a "movement" over something that statistically happens so little it is irrelevant.

There are things we should be doing now that like removing mandatory minimum sentencing for non-voilent drug offenses, legalizing pot and voting against militarization of police. They don't need tanks.

I get that some of you think 100% of cops are bad. I think probably 10% are bad and maybe 1% are criminally bad.

twomp
12-27-2014, 01:56 PM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

This is an issue pumped up by the left wing media for reasons yet unknown, but probably nefarious.

And what about ISIS? what percentage of Americans have been killed by them in the US?

69360
12-27-2014, 02:00 PM
And what about ISIS? what percentage of Americans have been killed by them in the US?

What about ISIS? They should have been left alone. Who cares if they took over Iraq? They had no interest at all in the US until Obama bombed them.

TheTexan
12-27-2014, 02:08 PM
It's still a tiny fraction of a percent who get harassed or beatdown.

I think it's stupid to make a big deal or have a "movement" over something that statistically happens so little it is irrelevant.

There are things we should be doing now that like removing mandatory minimum sentencing for non-voilent drug offenses, legalizing pot and voting against militarization of police. They don't need tanks.

I get that some of you think 100% of cops are bad. I think probably 10% are bad and maybe 1% are criminally bad.

It hasn't happened to me, probably because I love cops and I shower them with praise when I see them, but I know personally some people who got seriously fucked over by cops.

They didn't die but they sure got fucked over. Had they done anything to defend themselves against the wrongs, they would have died.

The severity of the 'bad cop problem' is not evident in the number of deaths.

tangowhiskeykilo
12-27-2014, 02:09 PM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

This is an issue pumped up by the left wing media for reasons yet unknown, but probably nefarious.

What is the percentage of people beaten, raped or robbed? What is the percentage being illegally snooped on? Are those "stats" aka people relevant?

PaulConventionWV
12-27-2014, 02:20 PM
It's still a tiny fraction of a percent who get harassed or beatdown.

I think it's stupid to make a big deal or have a "movement" over something that statistically happens so little it is irrelevant.

There are things we should be doing now that like removing mandatory minimum sentencing for non-voilent drug offenses, legalizing pot and voting against militarization of police. They don't need tanks.

I get that some of you think 100% of cops are bad. I think probably 10% are bad and maybe 1% are criminally bad.

It is NOT irrelevant! This happens to somebody in America every single freaking day. How is that irrelevant? If it can happen to them, then why can't it happen to you? Why do you think it's okay that taxpayer money is going to supporting these thugs when they do this every single day and never face justice for anything they do? Why do you think that's okay? Some guy gets his house or his life's savings taken for civil asset forfeiture and you think that's okay because it's "statistically irrelevant." Tell that to the people who this happens to every single freaking day! A lot of people actually have to worry about this on a regular basis even though their crimes have no victims. Why do you think we can just ignore that?

69360
12-27-2014, 02:45 PM
It is NOT irrelevant! This happens to somebody in America every single freaking day. How is that irrelevant? If it can happen to them, then why can't it happen to you? Why do you think it's okay that taxpayer money is going to supporting these thugs when they do this every single day and never face justice for anything they do? Why do you think that's okay? Some guy gets his house or his life's savings taken for civil asset forfeiture and you think that's okay because it's "statistically irrelevant." Tell that to the people who this happens to every single freaking day! A lot of people actually have to worry about this on a regular basis even though their crimes have no victims. Why do you think we can just ignore that?

Ok so one person a day suffers an injustice. That's 365 a year in a nation of 315 million. That's hardly a problem that needs a "movement" to deal with it. It sucks for them, but we can't eradicate every injustice in the world. This just isn't a widespread issue.

Like I said there is probably a nefarious reason the lefty media is pushing this whole cops thing right now. I can't quite put my finger on why yet.

CaptainAmerica
12-27-2014, 03:08 PM
Just because "cop block" exists doesn't mean they are the spear point of anti-corruption either. There are many voices involved with the topic. I have been indifferent to police for quite some time experiencing time and again the control freak tendencies they exert upon people ,and the puffed up egos when they do get worshiped to the point that they decide when to not impose their power down on a civilian. I am just fed up with them, if people would quit their stupid job which is built off of racket policies then maybe we wouldn't have this power structure hurting so many people who are innocent. But humans love to exert power, they flock to power, and those who silently permit it , silently follow orders, and silently collect a pay check are just as immoral for that power being exerted and existing. Sure, you can say "well this is reality". If men and women would stop enlisting to be praetorian guardsmen of the state, (such as the army that came up to that ranchers land in Nevada) then no one would actually have to get so pissed off , but its really beginning to look like a tail of two cities in america.

PaulConventionWV
12-27-2014, 03:54 PM
Ok so one person a day suffers an injustice. That's 365 a year in a nation of 315 million. That's hardly a problem that needs a "movement" to deal with it. It sucks for them, but we can't eradicate every injustice in the world. This just isn't a widespread issue.

Like I said there is probably a nefarious reason the lefty media is pushing this whole cops thing right now. I can't quite put my finger on why yet.

I didn't say "one", did I? I don't know how many people this happens to every day, but I will bet you cash money it is a hell of a lot more than one who suffers harassment, imprisonment, beating or killing every day.

The fact is that, despite your whining, this IS a widespread issue. It affects everyone because these cops aren't being held accountable and it could happen to any one of you. We all know how aggressive cops are in traffic stops and otherwise. They simply don't face any consequences for their actions and, yes, it is worthy of a movement just because of the plain fact that it happens, and every day, no less. We all know what it's like to be stopped by the police and we also know that we are literally at their mercy and it is not right.

We've been pushing this issue on RPF much longer than the recent media shitstorm. It freaking matters. You only have to glance at the front page of General Politics to know this happens all of the freaking time. What's more, the injustice isn't just against those who have been beaten or shot. It's against everyone who's been harassed by the police, and it's against the taxpayers who are forced to fund this monstrosity.

We may not be able to eradicate every injustice, but this is one that needs eradicating because it affects every single one of us. Are we supposed to just lay back and accept this from the people who are sworn to protect and serve us? It doesn't burn you that these people get away with their crimes? This problem is a lot bigger than you're making it out to be, and it's not as isolated as you seem to think. Are we just supposed to accept the fact that these low-life scum criminals have virtually unlimited power over us?

I can't fucking think straight in the face of such idiocy.

ETA: What is your .003% statistic even based on? Humans don't only live for one year, you know. The likelihood of this happening to us per year may be relatively low, but we only have to be beaten/killed once in our entire lifetime for it to matter. You and I both know that we Americans look over our backs for police because we know this could happen to us at any time. It only takes one time for it to start mattering to you.

euphemia
12-27-2014, 03:57 PM
The reason they don't face consequences is because they are enforcing the laws of a state that criminalizes every. little. thing.

69360
12-27-2014, 04:39 PM
I didn't say "one", did I? I don't know how many people this happens to every day, but I will bet you cash money it is a hell of a lot more than one who suffers harassment, imprisonment, beating or killing every day.

The fact is that, despite your whining, this IS a widespread issue. It affects everyone because these cops aren't being held accountable and it could happen to any one of you. We all know how aggressive cops are in traffic stops and otherwise. They simply don't face any consequences for their actions and, yes, it is worthy of a movement just because of the plain fact that it happens, and every day, no less. We all know what it's like to be stopped by the police and we also know that we are literally at their mercy and it is not right.

We've been pushing this issue on RPF much longer than the recent media shitstorm. It freaking matters. You only have to glance at the front page of General Politics to know this happens all of the freaking time. What's more, the injustice isn't just against those who have been beaten or shot. It's against everyone who's been harassed by the police, and it's against the taxpayers who are forced to fund this monstrosity.

We may not be able to eradicate every injustice, but this is one that needs eradicating because it affects every single one of us. Are we supposed to just lay back and accept this from the people who are sworn to protect and serve us? It doesn't burn you that these people get away with their crimes? This problem is a lot bigger than you're making it out to be, and it's not as isolated as you seem to think. Are we just supposed to accept the fact that these low-life scum criminals have virtually unlimited power over us?

I can't fucking think straight in the face of such idiocy.

ETA: What is your .003% statistic even based on? Humans don't only live for one year, you know. The likelihood of this happening to us per year may be relatively low, but we only have to be beaten/killed once in our entire lifetime for it to matter. You and I both know that we Americans look over our backs for police because we know this could happen to us at any time. It only takes one time for it to start mattering to you.

It's a problem because you WANT it to be. Statistically it just isn't. You can't change the numbers. Of course there are bad cops, but it's not the widespread systemic problem some of you want it to be.


The reason they don't face consequences is because they are enforcing the laws of a state that criminalizes every. little. thing.

That's also true. Doesn't the average person commit several felonies a day?

PaulConventionWV
12-27-2014, 05:04 PM
It's a problem because you WANT it to be. Statistically it just isn't. You can't change the numbers. Of course there are bad cops, but it's not the widespread systemic problem some of you want it to be.

No, I don't care what the fucking numbers are. It's a problem because it happens. These people are getting away with murder and you don't think it's a problem? In that case, I think it's you who has a distorted view of this, not me.

And yes, it is systemic by definition. The system allows this to happen. These cops get away with really bad crimes because the system is never willing to punish them. If you'll at least admit that cops get away with this because the DA's won't prosecute and the department won't punish these cops, then you also have to accept that it is systemic. And if you'll admit that this is true, which it is, then you'll also have to admit that these cops are not in the minority just by virtue of the fact that the system allows bad cops to thrive. That means most, if not all, cops are bad.

TheTexan
12-27-2014, 05:06 PM
It's a problem because you WANT it to be. Statistically it just isn't. You can't change the numbers. Of course there are bad cops, but it's not the widespread systemic problem some of you want it to be.

So, you say 90% of cops are good, 10% are bad, and 1% are criminal. What are the odds that 5 would cooperate together in wrongfully and criminally fucking someone over?

1% * 10% * 10% * 10% * 10% = .0001% ?

Seems like it should be pretty rare, right? There should at least be one cop that at least refuses to participate, right? Or says something?

69360
12-27-2014, 05:09 PM
So, you say 90% of cops are good, 10% are bad, and 1% are criminal. What are the odds that 5 would cooperate together in wrongfully and criminally fucking someone over?

1% * 10% * 10% * 10% * 10% = .0001% ?

Seems like it should be pretty rare, right? There should at least be one cop that at least refuses to participate, right? Or says something?

Probably pretty good. Like minded people tend to associate. Goes for bad cops and RPF as well.

Your definition of criminal probably doesn't reach the legal definition either.

TheTexan
12-27-2014, 05:11 PM
Your definition of criminal probably doesn't reach the legal definition either.

No, it does. What they did was certainly criminal. But it's she said, cop said, situation.

staerker
12-27-2014, 05:51 PM
It's a problem because you WANT it to be. Statistically it just isn't. You can't change the numbers. Of course there are bad cops, but it's not the widespread systemic problem some of you want it to be.

Fear and control. They use violence because their claim of authority is illegitimate. It has been proven that if you disobey, you will be subjugated.

It is only because of the widespread compliance that the numbers are low. For now.

69360
12-27-2014, 07:49 PM
Fear and control. They use violence because their claim of authority is illegitimate. It has been proven that if you disobey, you will be subjugated.

It is only because of the widespread compliance that the numbers are low. For now.

Again numbers just don't back up your assertion.

What percentage of people arrested do you think don't obey commands or resist? Maybe 10%? I don't know, but from what I've seen that seems about right.

Are 10% of people arrested in the US beatdown or killed? That's not the case so it's fair to say the police in general show restraint.

Yes bad things happen sometimes and yes the increasing militarization is something to be concerned about. But there is not a systemic problem in this country,

PaulConventionWV
12-27-2014, 08:14 PM
Fear and control. They use violence because their claim of authority is illegitimate. It has been proven that if you disobey, you will be subjugated.

It is only because of the widespread compliance that the numbers are low. For now.

Exactly. Just because people aren't dropping like flies, that doesn't mean this isn't a widespread problem. In fact, imagine if everybody acted like thugs. People WOULD be dropping like flies. It's only because of survival instinct that the vast majority of people manage to save themselves from being beaten or robbed, but they're still being harassed and violated illegally on a regular basis.

PaulConventionWV
12-27-2014, 08:20 PM
Again numbers just don't back up your assertion.

What percentage of people arrested do you think don't obey commands or resist? Maybe 10%? I don't know, but from what I've seen that seems about right.

Are 10% of people arrested in the US beatdown or killed? That's not the case so it's fair to say the police in general show restraint.

Yes bad things happen sometimes and yes the increasing militarization is something to be concerned about. But there is not a systemic problem in this country,

Why do you keep bringing up these crummy statistics as if they were based on anything? You're pulling these numbers out of your ass. The fact that people aren't dying left and right actually just shows you how big of a problem this really is, because if .003% (we'll assume) of people are killed by police, then that means a far larger number of people are violated to the point where they could be killed if they got even the tiniest bit sick of the oppression. This is because most people do literally anything they can to escape being beaten or killed, so that means a far greater number of people are regularly harassed, violated, and intimidated into submission while their rights are violated.

The fact that you think there is no systemic problem is just laughable. Why do you think police get away with their crimes? It's because of the system, right? The system refuses to punish them, therefore, it's systemic.

staerker
12-27-2014, 08:49 PM
Are 10% of people arrested in the US beatdown or killed? That's not the case so it's fair to say the police in general show restraint.

You know something is wrong when not beating or killing innocents is considered "showing restraint."

pcosmar
12-27-2014, 09:35 PM
Yes bad things happen sometimes and yes the increasing militarization is something to be concerned about. But there is not a systemic problem in this country,

Yes there is. And I have watched it change in my lifetime.

The first time was at sixteen,, a cop cocked his revolver behind my right ear. That was in the mid 70s.
I was doing nothing but walking down a street to get some pizza.

I have observed a lot more in the years since.

euphemia
12-27-2014, 09:42 PM
So let's cut to the chase. What is the solution to the problem? Someone outline a workable plan. What I hear right now is a throwback to the 1960s. What is to be done today? It has to be more than posting pictures and saying stop doing this. What is a workable plan that we can give state reps and city councils that will change the system?

PaulConventionWV
12-27-2014, 11:57 PM
So let's cut to the chase. What is the solution to the problem? Someone outline a workable plan. What I hear right now is a throwback to the 1960s. What is to be done today? It has to be more than posting pictures and saying stop doing this. What is a workable plan that we can give state reps and city councils that will change the system?

That is just pure nonsense. No plan you give the government is going to have an effect. Be honest with yourself. Do you really think anything you give them is going to mean shit to them? They're not going to change for you. The system is so deeply ingrained in our society that any attempt to "give state reps and city councils" a plan to change things is basically the same thing as just posting pictures and saying stop doing this. You're just trading one method of shouting at the system for another. The difference is that we, here, are realists. Whatever change does happen will not happen with the system's permission, much less its cooperation. What you're suggesting basically amounts to writing SWLODs and hoping it changes something.

Even if your method does eventually have a meaningful impact, it certainly won't materialize in your lifetime, so what's the point? Why would people work at this if they will never live to see the results of their efforts? You have no power and are given no say in the matter, so what makes you think the government would ever listen to you, much less follow your suggestions when it decreases their power? If it's going to happen, they're not going to let it happen willingly. We all need to get used to that fact and get real. No amount of working within the system is going to change anything.

So, in my mind, there are only three options as far as actual solutions go:
1) Lie low and do everything to avoid confrontation. You can still do it, but you would have to restrict your lifestyle. Is it worth it?
2) Revolt. Become an activist and be willing to do jail time and be a martyr for the cause. This can definitely have a real effect that you will be able to experience, but it certainly has its obvious drawbacks, such as the high probability of having something happen to you.
3) Move out of the country. I actually recommend this one because it is the most effective for your personal life. I personally don't see why anyone would feel an obligation to stay and change the system. Just bug out and show the system that you don't need them.

kcchiefs6465
12-28-2014, 01:16 AM
So let's cut to the chase. What is the solution to the problem? Someone outline a workable plan. What I hear right now is a throwback to the 1960s. What is to be done today? It has to be more than posting pictures and saying stop doing this. What is a workable plan that we can give state reps and city councils that will change the system?
The first step is ostracization. Educational efforts as the next.

State representatives are beholden to the police and prison unions. Same as city councils. Much against what a particular apologist has said, the problem is indeed systemic. It's not a simple case of moral decay. The entire thing is built to operate as it does. And if not purposely so, then predictably so. It doesn't change the color of the sky to argue it's teal and not blue. Police officers routinely take from the truly unable to pay, targeting people with broken taillights, cracked windshields etc. Those who commit victimless crimes, such as smoking marijuana, or even crack cocaine, are arrested and confined to a cage. I've written pages on it, probably enough so now as to fill a book.

Here they are talking about the number of people murdered when the single mom whose car was impounded on the way to work in an attempt to feed her family simply has no voice. When the person in possession of a gram of a plant (imagine 1/454th of a pound) is given a felony, one year with actual criminals, placed in a holding cell with violent rapists and murderers, and is possibly* strangled to death, or beaten, or raped. And truth be told, what's he going to do when he gets out? 18 years old with a felony, can never own a firearm, or find a decent job. Perhaps he'd been better off if he was murdered. Maybe some video will come out proving the incompetency of the prison and his family will be able to eat off the settlement. And what of his kids? What of the children whose father or mother is locked in a cage for 23 hours. You think they're going to be healthy minded visiting their father through a television screen, watching other inmates taking a shit?

But of course simply murders, and not the entirely institutional and blatantly systemic tragedies ought be considered. If I don't like a law I ought just vote a little bit harder. Organize a little bit better. Well, the problem is that people like the current situation. They enjoy drug users being kept as dogs, or slaves to build cheap product. So what then?

Can't even call a spade a spade without peoples' kneejerk reactions regarding the state's supposed* benevolence.

tod evans
12-28-2014, 05:02 AM
So let's cut to the chase. What is the solution to the problem? Someone outline a workable plan. What I hear right now is a throwback to the 1960s. What is to be done today? It has to be more than posting pictures and saying stop doing this. What is a workable plan that we can give state reps and city councils that will change the system?

There is only one realistic answer and the TOS prohibit addressing it directly.

I will however plainly state that learning the names and addresses of those state reps and city councilmen you speak of would be wise.

This kind of query and the attitude that precipitates it are akin to asking the police to police the police.

These people you appear to hold in high esteem are part and parcel of the "Just-Us" system.

They will not fix themselves!

osan
12-28-2014, 06:37 AM
The author is preaching to shards of a brick.

osan
12-28-2014, 06:48 AM
There is a .003% chance of death by cop in the US. Figure half of that is suicide by cop or darwin by cop, so maybe a .00015% chance for the average person. Statistically it's irrelevant.

You would not be thinking that, were you lying on the ground with a cop's bullet in your gut.

It seems you have some talent for missing the real point in an issue. But let me at least get you started on the path here: statistics have nothing to do with relevancy in this case. These are matters of principle. Additionally, death is not the only issue at hand here. How about counting all the other ways in which police bring palpable harm to people? They steal, rape, maim (Bou Bou, e.g.), burn, destroy at rates that far and away exceed those of the mean man. They waste your time, give you cause to fear for your safety and your very life, and take your possessions without consent. These are the behaviors Americans used to expect of criminals. I know because I am old enough to have lived in that time. Today, this has come to be expected of police in ever growing circles of the population who now perceive this as normal and even acceptable in an alarmingly large number of cases.

osan
12-28-2014, 06:53 AM
Everything is a freaking "movement" nowadays.

And some of those are of the "bowel" variety.

tod evans
12-28-2014, 08:16 AM
You would not be thinking that, were you lying on the ground with a cop's bullet in your gut.

It seems you have some talent for missing the real point in an issue. But let me at least get you started on the path here: statistics have nothing to do with relevancy in this case. These are matters of principle. Additionally, death is not the only issue at hand here. How about counting all the other ways in which police bring palpable harm to people? They steal, rape, maim (Bou Bou, e.g.), burn, destroy at rates that far and away exceed those of the mean man. They waste your time, give you cause to fear for your safety and your very life, and take your possessions without consent. These are the behaviors Americans used to expect of criminals. I know because I am old enough to have lived in that time. Today, this has come to be expected of police in ever growing circles of the population who now perceive this as normal and even acceptable in an alarmingly large number of cases.

But,but.................Isn't this behavior justified because of drugs, terror, racism, the friggin' children for Gods sake!

A Son of Liberty
12-28-2014, 08:55 AM
The reason they don't face consequences is because they are enforcing the laws of a state that criminalizes every. little. thing.

The implication here, that the "real" problem are the laws and therefore the lawmakers, is morally repugnant. While it is true that the laws and lawmakers are A problem, they are not THE problem. Those who ENFORCE unjust laws stand as morally at fault as those who IMPOSE unjust laws.

PaulConventionWV
12-28-2014, 09:07 AM
The implication here, that the "real" problem are the laws and therefore the lawmakers, is morally repugnant. While it is true that the laws and lawmakers are A problem, they are not THE problem. Those who ENFORCE unjust laws stand as morally at fault as those who IMPOSE unjust laws.

Agreed. Cops should stand trial for their crimes regardless what job they're doing.

A Son of Liberty
12-28-2014, 10:22 AM
Agreed. Cops should stand trial for their crimes regardless what job they're doing.

I was listening to Teocon SiriusXM host Andrew Wilkow the other day. His position was exactly that - that the problem is not the enforcers of the law, but the lawmakers themselves, and he based that assertion on the fact that "we" live in a representative democracy/republic and as such "we" are "empowered" to act to change the law. This, of course, is rank stupidity as it presumes that moral behavior is predicated upon the will of "the people", that "the people" might be moved to enact laws which are founded upon principle, and naturally that there may be any righteousness in actions on behalf of "the people" at all.

Parenthetically, it's a laugh that Wilkow's 'hook' line is "the arguments on this radio program cannot be broken". I listen to him regularly and it's junior varsity stuff.

PaulConventionWV
12-28-2014, 11:44 AM
I was listening to Teocon SiriusXM host Andrew Wilkow the other day. His position was exactly that - that the problem is not the enforcers of the law, but the lawmakers themselves, and he based that assertion on the fact that "we" live in a representative democracy/republic and as such "we" are "empowered" to act to change the law. This, of course, is rank stupidity as it presumes that moral behavior is predicated upon the will of "the people", that "the people" might be moved to enact laws which are founded upon principle, and naturally that there may be any righteousness in actions on behalf of "the people" at all.

Parenthetically, it's a laugh that Wilkow's 'hook' line is "the arguments on this radio program cannot be broken". I listen to him regularly and it's junior varsity stuff.

LOL

The arguments on his radio program cannot be broken because "I'm on the radio and you're not, bitch!"