2 NYPD Cops Shot in Squad Car in Bed Stuy

[AuH20]

Just broke....

[AuH20]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-sources-article-1.2051941

[Christian Liberty]

I don't mean to sound heartless by saying "who cares" but why post this? Criminals commit crimes. Why is this a shock? And, the NYPD victimizes people all the time. I am not saying this is acceptable behavior, but I don't see why this is worth discussing here.

And yes, I realize that I made a discussion post asking why we're discussing. I guess that shows how addicted to the internet I've become:p I'm not as bothered by the OP as I probably should be. No, I'm not "OK" with it. But I kind of feel indifferent and cold. Which is probably wrong. I guess I kind of feel like Ron Paul felt when Chris Kyle died. "Live by the sword, die by the sword" and so forth. And yes, I'd definitely feel differently were I to know the victim personally. But as a completely generic "two cops shot" its a mixture of indifference and a feeling that I really shouldn't be indifferent.

[Indy Vidual]

People need a good way to fight back without using extreme measures.

[phill4paul]

1). Don't work in an area where crime and violence are common. Simple. If economic events require you to work there, work as much as you can (you can get by on 4 hours of sleep) and make enough money that you can go work in a normal neighborhood where the Ghetto bird and sirens are a rare event not an hourly thing.

2). To facilitate #1, make as much money as you can. Yes...strive. Yes...focus on THIS world. Yes, go get a motherfreaking real job! Work your ass off. Watch what happens then. When you get a good paying job, you don't have to work with rats. When you don't have to work with rats, you have a nice home in a nice 'hood. When you have a nice home in a nice 'hood, your wife will love you more, and you won't care about thugs with guns.

3). Finally and perhaps most importantly, don't be a cop that gets you on a thugs radar in the first place. And when you read some article about some poor dudley-do-right getting victimized by those "evil thugs", read between the lines and then consider the source as well.

So there it is. The formula for defending against getting popped by a thug.

1.Get a job. A real one.
2.Make money
3.Get a nice home where police activity is not needed
4.Make more money
5.Find a nice girl
6.Marry her and have lots of cool kids that will also make money

[SeanTX]

supposedly posted online by the shooter. I suppose they will use this as an excuse to monitor social media (even more) and take action right away, arresting people for any little anti-cop comment (though this was more of an outright threat).

http://instagram.com/dontrunup

http://i.imgur.com/MQDEtwh.png

[Christian Liberty]

1). Don't work in an area where crime and violence are common. Simple. If economic events require you to work there, work as much as you can (you can get by on 4 hours of sleep) and make enough money that you can go work in a normal neighborhood where the Ghetto bird and sirens are a rare event not an hourly thing.

2). To facilitate #1, make as much money as you can. Yes...strive. Yes...focus on THIS world. Yes, go get a motherfreaking real job! Work your ass off. Watch what happens then. When you get a good paying job, you don't have to work with rats. When you don't have to work with rats, you have a nice home in a nice 'hood. When you have a nice home in a nice 'hood, your wife will love you more, and you won't care about thugs with guns.

3). Finally and perhaps most importantly, don't be a cop that gets you on a thugs radar in the first place. And when you read some article about some poor dudley-do-right getting victimized by those "evil thugs", read between the lines and then consider the source as well.

So there it is. The formula for defending against getting popped by a thug.

1.Get a job. A real one.
2.Make money
3.Get a nice home where police activity is not needed
4.Make more money
5.Find a nice girl
6.Marry her and have lots of cool kids that will also make money

lol!

[AuH20]

1 NYPD cop dead, other in critical condition...suspect offed self in subway station.

[libertyjam]

http://www.wkrg.com/story/27614265/2-atlanta-area-police-officers-shot

2 Atlanta Area Police Officers Shot
Posted: Updated:
By CBS
DECATUR, Ga. - Two police officers and a suspect have been shot at an apartment outside Atlanta, and police are still searching for at least one additional suspect, reports CBS affiliate WGCL.

The officers were responding to a home invasion call at the Colony Ridge Apartments in Decatur when they were shot just before 7 a.m. Friday, reports the station. They were shot with a high-powered rifle, reported the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

The officers were reportedly alert and breathing when they were taken to a hospital.

The condition of the suspect who was also shot at the apartment wasn't immediately clear. Schools in the area are on lockdown as the manhunt continues.

Hours later, a second shooting was reported at a Home Depot about three miles away, reports the Journal Constitution. It wasn't immediately clear if the two incidents were related.

[CPUd]

Johnny says "April Fool's"

[phill4paul]

http://www.wkrg.com/story/27614265/2-atlanta-area-police-officers-shot

2 Atlanta Area Police Officers Shot
Posted: Updated:
By CBS
DECATUR, Ga. - Two police officers and a suspect have been shot at an apartment outside Atlanta, and police are still searching for at least one additional suspect, reports CBS affiliate WGCL.

The officers were responding to a home invasion call at the Colony Ridge Apartments in Decatur when they were shot just before 7 a.m. Friday, reports the station. They were shot with a high-powered rifle, reported the Atlanta Journal Constitution.


A high-powered rifle wouldn't be my weapon of choice for a home invasion.

[invisible]

In before DFF and 69360 start saying that the victims deserved to die because they were "thugs". Oh, wait...

[phill4paul]

I'm seeing conflicting reports on the shooter. Some say was seen led away on a stretcher while CPR was being performed, some say in custody and some say dead in subway.

[DFF]

This is the end result of the mainstream media manipulating people into falsely believing Mike Brown was innocent and was in fact a victim. Now unfortunately two officers are dead who had absolutely nothing to do with Brown. What a preventable tragedy which is 100% the mainstream media's fault.

[Dr.3D]

I've been trying to figure out what a Bed Stuy is but still don't have a clue.

[kcchiefs6465]

I've been trying to figure out what a Bed Stuy is but still don't have a clue.

Bedford–Stuyvesant (/ˈbɛdfərdˈstaɪvəsənt/; colloquially known as Bed-Stuy) is a neighborhood of 153,000 inhabitants in the north central portion of the New York City borough of Brooklyn.

//

[otherone]

1). Don't work in an area where crime and violence are common. Simple.

Absolutely...it's the victims fault.

[Dr.3D]

//
Thanks. :)

[Working Poor]

I've been trying to figure out what a Bed Stuy is but still don't have a clue.

It is a neighborhood in Brooklyn I think.

[jmdrake]

This is the end result of the mainstream media manipulating people into falsely believing Mike Brown was innocent and was in fact a victim. Now unfortunately two officers are dead who had absolutely nothing to do with Brown. What a preventable tragedy which is 100% the mainstream media's fault.

For the record the shooting was in New York and Eric Garner was in New York. You know, this guy? Choked to death because he did't want to get arrested for allegedly selling cigarettes on the sidewalk?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-xHqf1BVE4

[SeanTX]

This is the end result of the mainstream media manipulating people into falsely believing Mike Brown was innocent and was in fact a victim. Now unfortunately two officers are dead who had absolutely nothing to do with Brown. What a preventable tragedy which is 100% the mainstream media's fault.

Have you forgotten about Eric Garner, and the unarmed man shot and killed in Brooklyn by NYPD recently? This has nothing to do with Mike Brown, but police apologists will bring that case up in every case from here on out ...

[otherone]

What a preventable tragedy which is 100% the mainstream media's fault.

I'm pretty sure the fella who pulled the trigger is 100% at fault.

[jkob]

http://i.imgur.com/ZLryy7P.jpg

[Christian Liberty]

Wow... not one person wants to tell me I should care more about this... I thought for sure there would be at least one.

[tod evans]

A high-powered rifle wouldn't be my weapon of choice for a home invasion.

Somewhere there's a newz-speak poster for "high-powered rifles", I'm pretty sure the Red-Rider is included........

[AuH20]

Have you forgotten about Eric Garner, and the unarmed man shot and killed in Brooklyn by NYPD recently? This has nothing to do with Mike Brown, but police apologists will bring that case up in every case from here on out ...

Yup.

[RandallFan]

Walter E Williams is from there. Maybe Bill Cosby as well.

[Brian4Liberty]

They are saying he murdered his girlfriend first. Then again, initial reports are often wrong.


The gunman was a fugitive who had just murdered his girlfriend in Baltimore Saturday morning, sources told The Post.

[jmdrake]

Wow... not one person wants to tell me I should care more about this... I thought for sure there would be at least one.

Okay. You should care. Last time cops got killed in revenge for police brutality cops went on a crazed manhunt and started shooting up vehicles that didn't match their suspect and occupied by people that looked nothing like the suspect.

http://kttv.images.worldnow.com/images/21578827_SA.jpg

[ChristianAnarchist]

Blowback... Check the CIA definition...

[mrsat_98]

In before DFF and 69360 start saying that the victims deserved to die because they were "thugs". Oh, wait...

I did not give invisible + rep for this post.
I did not give invisible + rep for this post.
I did not give invisible + rep for this post.

[Henry Rogue]

1). Don't work in an area where crime and violence are common. Simple. If economic events require you to work there, work as much as you can (you can get by on 4 hours of sleep) and make enough money that you can go work in a normal neighborhood where the Ghetto bird and sirens are a rare event not an hourly thing.

2). To facilitate #1, make as much money as you can. Yes...strive. Yes...focus on THIS world. Yes, go get a motherfreaking real job! Work your ass off. Watch what happens then. When you get a good paying job, you don't have to work with rats. When you don't have to work with rats, you have a nice home in a nice 'hood. When you have a nice home in a nice 'hood, your wife will love you more, and you won't care about thugs with guns.

3). Finally and perhaps most importantly, don't be a cop that gets you on a thugs radar in the first place. And when you read some article about some poor dudley-do-right getting victimized by those "evil thugs", read between the lines and then consider the source as well.

So there it is. The formula for defending against getting popped by a thug.

1.Get a job. A real one.
2.Make money
3.Get a nice home where police activity is not needed
4.Make more money
5.Find a nice girl
6.Marry her and have lots of cool kids that will also make money

Masterful, using one's own arguement against them at the most opportune time, demonstrates the absurdity of the original premise.

[Christian Liberty]

Okay. You should care. Last time cops got killed in revenge for police brutality cops went on a crazed manhunt and started shooting up vehicles that didn't match their suspect and occupied by people that looked nothing like the suspect.

http://kttv.images.worldnow.com/images/21578827_SA.jpg

Understood. But... anyone going to tell me I should care becuase I have a moral obligation to care when people are murdered?

[Henry Rogue]

I'm pretty sure the fella who pulled the trigger is 100% at fault.
+ rep. Why is the blame always deflected. Especially when cops murder.

[Suzanimal]

“They Take 1 of Ours, Let’s Take 2 of Theirs” New York Man Executes Two Cops in Revenge Attack


New York, N.Y. – Two NYPD cops are dead after what has been labeled as an “execution style” attack, while sitting in their patrol car in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn.


According to the New York Post, the officers were working overtime as part of a anti-terrorism drill when they were approached by a single gunman who shot the officers at point blank range on the corner of Myrtle and Tompkins avenues.

The gunman was a fugitive who had just murdered his girlfriend in Baltimore Saturday morning, sources told The Post.

“The perp came out of the houses, walked up behind the car and lit them up,” a high-ranking police official told the NY Daily News.

The motive for the attack seems to be retaliation for the continued police killings taking place across America.

The alleged shooter, who has been identified as Ismaaiyl Abdullah Brinsley, 28, posted this on his instagram just prior to the shootings,

i’m putting wings on pigs today. they take 1 of ours…… let’s take 2 of theirs #shootthepolice #riperivgardner #ripmikebrown this may be my final post i’m putting pigs in a blanket”

As we have seen recently with the alleged attack by Eric Frein against police, people are reaching their breaking point in regards to being abused by the omnipotent police state.

According to law enforcement sources, the gunman started “pumping bullets” into the police cruiser.

Here is another post by the alleged gunman to instigram after the shooting, showing what appears to be blood, possibly of the cops, on his pants, with a quote saying,

“never had a hot gun on your waist and blood on your shoe……. nigga you ain’t been through what i been through you not like me and i’m not like you. #brooklyngohard #coneyisland

The suspected triggerman fled to a nearby subway station at Myrtle and Willoughby after the shooting, where he received a fatal self inflicted gunshot.

An investigator said, “They engaged the guy and he did himself.”

A video after the incident was posted to facebook and at the 8 second mark in the video you can hear a gunshot, most likely the gunman committing suicide.

...

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/2-nypd-cops-killed/#2W4JIbz2zgub6rrs.99

[mrsat_98]

Blowback... Check the CIA definition...

maybe staged blowback ?

[euphemia]

I've been trying to figure out what a Bed Stuy is but still don't have a clue.

It's near the Flushing Avenue train stop. Families live there. Kids go to school there. There are two top-flight charter schools there that are setting new benchmarks for poor and minority kids. The police are a welcome presence to families who live there. I have personally observed it.

I think you should care a lot about this. Libertarians, of all people, should stop believing the mainstream media. The reason there is a black market for cigarettes is because of the exhorbitant taxes in New York--particularly in NYC. The way to change the system is not to seek revenge because of what a few people do. The way to change the system is to change the system.

Libertarians should be about the individual. If one person does wrong, there should be justice. There is no reason to paint everyone with a broad brush and indict a group. Let justice be served on the individual who does wrong. Liberty thinkers do not think everyone is the same.

[Dr.3D]

I think you should care a lot about this.
Did I say I didn't care?

I was just trying to figure out who was in bed with Stuy.

[kcchiefs6465]

Bed Stuy is a poorer community in Brooklyn where people, minorities in particular, are abused by police quite routinely. I have never been there but the reputation of Bed Stuy is well known.

I seriously doubt much of anyone welcomes the presence of police officers there (of all places), most of whom certainly don't live within the communities they are patrolling.

[euphemia]

Liberty thinkers should care any time a person suffers harm at the hands of another person. People who commit crime get due process and a sentence. Neither police or civilians are all of that process.

In this case, you have a city--New York City--that thinks it should control everything the citizens do. The mayor is a horrible man, and he is aided and abetted by unions. They are destroying what little way of life still exists there. The only way to change the system is to change the system. Change the people who are part of the system. Change the way they do business. This mayor is very capricious. He is there to help his friends and harm his enemies, and he really does not care who is caught in the crossfire. He will sacrifice the future of little kids if he can put down a political foe.

[tod evans]

Liberty thinkers should care any time a person suffers harm at the hands of another person. People who commit crime get due process and a sentence. Neither police or civilians are all of that process.

Guess I'm just not focused enough on "liberty" then because this sure seems like fighting back to me............

As for due-process............HA! I haven't seen anything that resembles due process afforded anyone I've known in over 5 decades..

[jmdrake]

I've been trying to figure out what a Bed Stuy is but still don't have a clue.

I was standing in the combat zone
I walked through Bedford Stuy alone
Even road my motorcycle in the rain

And you told me not to drive
But I made it home alive
So you said that only proves that I'm insane.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo9t5XK0FhA

[otherone]

Guess I'm just not focused enough on "liberty" then because this sure seems like fighting back to me............



BOLSHEVIK.
REPORTED.

[DFF]

Looks like next years NYPD crime statistics just got bumped up a notch.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1522939!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/graphic-crime20-1119.jpg

The perpetrators will be the same though, which year after year, is something that never changes.

[Inkblots]

Very sad news. One can only hope the cycle of violence will end here.

[PaulConventionWV]

I don't mean to sound heartless by saying "who cares" but why post this? Criminals commit crimes. Why is this a shock? And, the NYPD victimizes people all the time. I am not saying this is acceptable behavior, but I don't see why this is worth discussing here.

And yes, I realize that I made a discussion post asking why we're discussing. I guess that shows how addicted to the internet I've become:p I'm not as bothered by the OP as I probably should be. No, I'm not "OK" with it. But I kind of feel indifferent and cold. Which is probably wrong. I guess I kind of feel like Ron Paul felt when Chris Kyle died. "Live by the sword, die by the sword" and so forth. And yes, I'd definitely feel differently were I to know the victim personally. But as a completely generic "two cops shot" its a mixture of indifference and a feeling that I really shouldn't be indifferent.

The shooting was clearly a response to the deaths of Eric Garner and Mike Brown. Right now, it's real criminals that are killing cops, but in the future it might be petty criminals who are sick of being screwed by the system and treated like scum by the police.

We can only have true change when enough people are scared to be cops because of how much they're hated for their fascist ways. This can only happen when people recognize that there is no justice for people killed by the police and they start dealing out their own justice.

[DFF]

Very sad news. One can only hope the cycle of violence will end here.

The odds of this happening are about the same as scoring a unicorn next time we go on a deer hunt.

[Christian Liberty]

The shooting was clearly a response to the deaths of Eric Garner and Mike Brown. Right now, it's real criminals that are killing cops, but in the future it might be petty criminals who are sick of being screwed by the system and treated like scum by the police.

We can only have true change when enough people are scared to be cops because of how much they're hated for their fascist ways. This can only happen when people recognize that there is no justice for people killed by the police and they start dealing out their own justice.

This is probably true. I'm not yet sure if vigilante justice can be MORAL, but its almost certainly necessary.

[James Madison]

So, the general consensus appears to be that the police officers did this to themselves.

[tod evans]

This is probably true. I'm not yet sure if vigilante justice can be MORAL, but its almost certainly necessary.

The "Just-Us" system they would like everyone to defer to isn't moral........

Simple logic says that a person either tolerates the abuse or retaliates.

Their courts will never be a place to seek justice for their wrongdoings...

[Tod]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xGqIYc99fI

http://filmingcops.com/breaking-citizen-kills-to-cops-posts-about-it-on-instagram-and-gets-over-300-likes/

[Christian Liberty]

So, the general consensus appears to be that the police officers did this to themselves.

I'm not going to go that far, although it would certainly be the logical conclusion of their own rhetoric.

The "Just-Us" system they would like everyone to defer to isn't moral........

Simple logic says that a person either tolerates the abuse or retaliates.

Their courts will never be a place to seek justice for their wrongdoings...

What did Jesus do?

Who did Paul say vengeance belongs to?

I don't have the answers here. I definitely believe it can get to a point where physically fighting back is the only way to stop tyranny. I also think physically fighting a democracy is kind of doomed to fail.

[Henry Rogue]

So, the general consensus appears to be that the police officers did this to themselves.
Speak for yourself, you don’t speak for me.

[Dr.3D]

So, the general consensus appears to be that the police officers did this to themselves.
That's not the way I see it.

They were just sitting there and were murdered by someone who didn't even care about his own life. A loser.

[Tod]

I've been trying to figure out what a Bed Stuy is but still don't have a clue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford%E2%80%93Stuyvesant,_Brooklyn


The neighborhood's name is a combination of the names of the Village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_subdivisions_of_New_York_State#Village) of Bedford and Stuyvesant Heights neighborhoods. The name Stuyvesant derives from Peter Stuyvesant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Stuyvesant), the last governor of the colony of New Netherland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Netherland).

[heavenlyboy34]

1). Don't work in an area where crime and violence are common. Simple. If economic events require you to work there, work as much as you can (you can get by on 4 hours of sleep) and make enough money that you can go work in a normal neighborhood where the Ghetto bird and sirens are a rare event not an hourly thing.

2). To facilitate #1, make as much money as you can. Yes...strive. Yes...focus on THIS world. Yes, go get a motherfreaking real job! Work your ass off. Watch what happens then. When you get a good paying job, you don't have to work with rats. When you don't have to work with rats, you have a nice home in a nice 'hood. When you have a nice home in a nice 'hood, your wife will love you more, and you won't care about thugs with guns.

3). Finally and perhaps most importantly, don't be a cop that gets you on a thugs radar in the first place. And when you read some article about some poor dudley-do-right getting victimized by those "evil thugs", read between the lines and then consider the source as well.

So there it is. The formula for defending against getting popped by a thug.

1.Get a job. A real one.
2.Make money
3.Get a nice home where police activity is not needed
4.Make more money
5.Find a nice girl
6.Marry her and have lots of cool kids that will also make money
Why would anyone do that when they can live off easy welfare (faked disability, EBT, etc)? Men are obsolete (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2014/01/02/time-men-are-obsolete-five-reasons-we-are-definitely-witnessing-end-m).

[THX 1138]

This is the end result of the mainstream media manipulating people into falsely believing Mike Brown was innocent and was in fact a victim. Now unfortunately two officers are dead who had absolutely nothing to do with Brown. What a preventable tragedy which is 100% the mainstream media's fault.

It's also the fault of the gunman.

He is the one who CHOSE to kill two innocent individuals.

He is the creep who made that choice. He didn't have to, but he did.

I don't buy into feeling any sympathy for such moral BS.

I see more far more corruption in the US legislative process than in the police force. Not saying that both don't exist. Just my view.

[RonZeplin]

http://localtvwtvr.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/breathe11.jpg?w=400&h=225&crop=1

The important thing is that the officers keep laughing and enjoying their T-Shirts, and not worry about prosecuting police crimes.
Laugh it up boys!

[Czolgosz]

At least somebody had the balls to answer back.

[Christian Liberty]

It's also the fault of the gunman.

He is the one who CHOSE to kill two innocent individuals.

He is the creep who made that choice. He didn't have to, but he did.

I don't buy into feeling any sympathy for such moral BS.

I see more far more corruption in the US legislative process than in the police force. Not saying that both don't exist. Just my view.

See, this is part of why I'm indifferent. They weren't "innocent individuals". Its not like the gunman went out and shot some child somewhere. These were police officers. Violent criminals. Tell society what, they stop peddling this crap, and I'll start caring. I don't want cops getting killed. Quite the opposite. But they aren't innocent. Even by the limited standard of NAP.

[brushfire]

supposedly posted online by the shooter. I suppose they will use this as an excuse to monitor social media (even more) and take action right away, arresting people for any little anti-cop comment (though this was more of an outright threat).

http://instagram.com/dontrunup

http://i.imgur.com/MQDEtwh.png

Offed with a pt92 no less..?

[RandallFan]

Could you imagine the damage to Rand, if Rand had given some sort of pandering speech to a bunch of black activists in the hood?

Al Sharpton is not a big problem because he is just a celebrity from MSNBC.

[euphemia]

Guess I'm just not focused enough on "liberty" then because this sure seems like fighting back to me............

Fighting back for what? These guys did not do anything to him. They were sitting in their patrol car. That's not fighting back for anything. It's the coward's way.

[euphemia]

The shooting was clearly a response to the deaths of Eric Garner and Mike Brown. Right now, it's real criminals that are killing cops, but in the future it might be petty criminals who are sick of being screwed by the system and treated like scum by the police.

Sorry, it's not all that clear what motivated this. The shooter has never met Garner or Brown, so it is not a response to anything he has experienced personally, and it is not a response to anything the two officers did to him. I am sick to death of criminals deciding they can do whatever they want.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

These guys did not do anything to him. They were sitting in their patrol car. That's not fighting back for anything. It's the coward's way.

Is putting your arm around somebody's throat for selling cigarettes brave?

[euphemia]

See, this is part of why I'm indifferent. They weren't "innocent individuals". Its not like the gunman went out and shot some child somewhere. These were police officers. Violent criminals. Tell society what, they stop peddling this crap, and I'll start caring. I don't want cops getting killed. Quite the opposite. But they aren't innocent. Even by the limited standard of NAP.

Really, and what makes you judge and jury of these two officers? Do you have proof that these two officers did anything wrong? Was the shooter innocent? Not really. He made the choice to take two lives that had nothing to do with him. He is a murderer. He deserves justice.

Editing to add the shooter is a coward. If he really had a point, he would not have run off like a coward. He shot two men in cold blood, then ran off to hide. No point at all, except being a coward.

[Anti Federalist]

I see what you did there.

+rep


1). Don't work in an area where crime and violence are common. Simple. If economic events require you to work there, work as much as you can (you can get by on 4 hours of sleep) and make enough money that you can go work in a normal neighborhood where the Ghetto bird and sirens are a rare event not an hourly thing.

2). To facilitate #1, make as much money as you can. Yes...strive. Yes...focus on THIS world. Yes, go get a motherfreaking real job! Work your ass off. Watch what happens then. When you get a good paying job, you don't have to work with rats. When you don't have to work with rats, you have a nice home in a nice 'hood. When you have a nice home in a nice 'hood, your wife will love you more, and you won't care about thugs with guns.

3). Finally and perhaps most importantly, don't be a cop that gets you on a thugs radar in the first place. And when you read some article about some poor dudley-do-right getting victimized by those "evil thugs", read between the lines and then consider the source as well.

So there it is. The formula for defending against getting popped by a thug.

1.Get a job. A real one.
2.Make money
3.Get a nice home where police activity is not needed
4.Make more money
5.Find a nice girl
6.Marry her and have lots of cool kids that will also make money

[Anti Federalist]

Fighting back for what? These guys did not do anything to him. They were sitting in their patrol car. That's not fighting back for anything. It's the coward's way.

The cops say they are at war with us.

Are they?

[Anti Federalist]

I did not give invisible + rep for this post.
I did not give invisible + rep for this post.
I did not give invisible + rep for this post.

Neither did I...

Neither did I...

Neither did I...

[euphemia]

Is putting your arm around somebody's throat for selling cigarettes brave?

Um, those two officers didn't do it. Or did you miss that part?

[Anti Federalist]

Neither police or civilians are all of that process.

Police are civilians.

Only occupying armies call the citizens "civilians".

[phill4paul]

Sorry, it's not all that clear what motivated this. The shooter has never met Garner or Brown, so it is not a response to anything he has experienced personally, and it is not a response to anything the two officers did to him. I am sick to death of criminals deciding they can do whatever they want.

That is a lot of presumptuous clap trap right there.

[euphemia]

The cops say they are at war with us.

Are they?

I don't think so. It's not my experience, at least. If these two men were sitting in a patrol car, then they were murdered in cold blood.

I'm going to tell you: I don't have a lot of respect for people who let idiot cold-blooded murderers do their talking for them. If the police are so corrupt that every single officer is guilty of something, go out there and make the case where something legal will be done about it. Change the system.

[euphemia]

Police are civilians.

Only occupying armies call the citizens "civilians".


Not exactly. But clearly you are missing the point. A single person is not judge and jury. If you have a problem with the system, go change the system. Idle threats on an internet forum are not going to change anything.

[euphemia]

That is a lot of presumptuous clap trap right there.

Oh, really? Do you have proof that the shooter is invested for a personal reason? I am no more presumptuous than those who judge the officers guilty with no proof at all.

This shooter will likely go to prison for the rest of his life and made no point at all except about himself.

[phill4paul]

Oh, really? Do you have proof that the shooter is invested for a personal reason? I am no more presumptuous than those who judge the officers guilty with no proof at all.

This shooter will likely go to prison for the rest of his life and made no point at all except about himself.

Do you have any proof that there was no personal reason? Thought so. Operation Rep Burn is still in effect.

[RonZeplin]

Oh, really? Do you have proof that the shooter is invested for a personal reason? I am no more presumptuous than those who judge the officers guilty with no proof at all.

This shooter will likely go to prison for the rest of his life .
Did you even read the story? He killed himself.

[chudrockz]

Oh, really? Do you have proof that the shooter is invested for a personal reason? I am no more presumptuous than those who judge the officers guilty with no proof at all.

This shooter will likely go to prison for the rest of his life and made no point at all except about himself.

Shooter is not at all likely to go to prison, since he is dead.

[euphemia]

Do you have any proof that there was no personal reason? Thought so. Operation Rep Burn is still in effect.

The proof is in the action of the shooter. He was not under direct threat of his life, and murdered two men in cold blood.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't think so. It's not my experience, at least. If these two men were sitting in a patrol car, then they were murdered in cold blood.

I'm going to tell you: I don't have a lot of respect for people who let idiot cold-blooded murderers do their talking for them. If the police are so corrupt that every single officer is guilty of something, go out there and make the case where something legal will be done about it. Change the system.

We have.

And got laughed at, and the cops enforced the law as they saw fit.

You are missing my point: IF we are at war (and the cops say they are, train that they are, equip themselves that they are, raid our homes and places of businesses like they are and operate under rules of engagement that, if anything, are more liberal than those of current fighters in war) then the "morality" of what happened here does not come into play.

They were uniformed soldiers of "the enemy" and as such presented themselves as legitimate targets.

Now, this is not what I want, but I didn't do this.

They declared "war on us".

[Christian Liberty]

Really, and what makes you judge and jury of these two officers? Do you have proof that these two officers did anything wrong? Was the shooter innocent? Not really. He made the choice to take two lives that had nothing to do with him. He is a murderer. He deserves justice.

Editing to add the shooter is a coward. If he really had a point, he would not have run off like a coward. He shot two men in cold blood, then ran off to hide. No point at all, except being a coward.

I never said the shooter was innocent, only that the cops weren't.

I am totally against "taking out" random cops. Its immoral. And assuming these were A: Just two random cops and B: Sitting in their patrol cars than I agree the murderer should, objectively speaking, receive justice.

I'm just saying, and this is more confession than bragging, that I really don't care. Criminals commit crimes. And honestly, if I had to make a choice between criminals committing crimes against the enforcement class VS other civilians, I'd choose the former. Maybe that's wrong. But, I don't think so. In this instance, most likely, one bully killed two other bullies.

This reminds me of what one guy (I think it was Ridley Radio or something like that) was saying that killing agents of the State is Guerilla War, not terrorism. He wasn't saying that that made it right (in fact, he said it probably was wrong) but that its guerilla war, not terrorism. That's sort of how I feel about this. No, its not "OK" to shoot police. I don't condone that, nor am I happy when that happens, but at some mental level I'm less vexed when a thug shoots a gang member than I am when a thug shoots a child (say.) Please don't read more into this than what I'm actually saying.


Guess I'm just not focused enough on "liberty" then because this sure seems like fighting back to me............

As for due-process............HA! I haven't seen anything that resembles due process afforded anyone I've known in over 5 decades..

But do two wrongs make a right?

I might, might be OK with "vigilante justice" were there specific evidence that individual X committed crimes worthy of death but yet the courts turned a blind eye. Morally I'm not sure. I'd definitely pardon anyone who did it.

I'm not OK with just randomly going after cops though. I understand that none of them are completely innocent. But not all of them are so guilty as to warrant death. There are degrees of guilt and ignorance is a mitigating factor.

The shooting was clearly a response to the deaths of Eric Garner and Mike Brown. Right now, it's real criminals that are killing cops, but in the future it might be petty criminals who are sick of being screwed by the system and treated like scum by the police.

We can only have true change when enough people are scared to be cops because of how much they're hated for their fascist ways. This can only happen when people recognize that there is no justice for people killed by the police and they start dealing out their own justice.

I actually don't think this is entirely the answer. We need to have a plan in place to rebuild, in order to prevent real criminals (armed aggressors) from running free. I'm the first to admit that cops do an awful job at preventing armed crime, but in order to prevent anarcho-capitalism from becomming chaotic anarchy, we need a virtuous population. Mind you, I think the same type of population that would socially pressure cops into quitting would likely be the type of population that could run a libertarian society. But I don't think its QUITE as simple as "Scare the crap out of them." Also, I don't think this is a battle that can be won with physical force. Government has us outgunned and they probably always will. It MAY be a problem that could be solved with social ostracization if we could change enough minds. Its problematic because I'm not even mentally in the right place for that yet, and if I'm not, I doubt there are a whole lot of people who are.

[Dr.3D]

We have.

And got laughed at, and the cops enforced the law as they saw fit.

You are missing my point: IF we are at war (and the cops say they are, train that they are, equip themselves that they are, raid our homes and places of businesses like they are and operate under rules of engagement that, if anything, are more liberal than those of current fighters in war) then the "morality" of what happened here does not come into play.

They were uniformed soldiers of "the enemy" and as such presented themselves as legitimate targets.

Now, this is not what I want, but I didn't do this.

They declared "war on us".

Well, you can't expect the ignorant to understand the concept of blow-back.

[Anti Federalist]

Not exactly. But clearly you are missing the point. A single person is not judge and jury. If you have a problem with the system, go change the system. Idle threats on an internet forum are not going to change anything.

Huh?

Who did I threaten?

[Christian Liberty]

We have.

And got laughed at, and the cops enforced the law as they saw fit.

You are missing my point: IF we are at war (and the cops say they are, train that they are, equip themselves that they are, raid our homes and places of businesses like they are and operate under rules of engagement that, if anything, are more liberal than those of current fighters in war) then the "morality" of what happened here does not come into play.

They were uniformed soldiers of "the enemy" and as such presented themselves as legitimate targets.

Now, this is not what I want, but I didn't do this.

They declared "war on us".

I bet that at least some cops would say "no" if asked if they were at war with you.

[Anti Federalist]

Well, you can't expect the ignorant to understand the concept of blow-back.

And that is really all that is going on here, from what I see so far.

Nothing is quite so infuriating to me as this unique American wide eyed wonder when somebody dares to strike back at government oppression at a place and time and method NOT of government's choosing.

[Anti Federalist]

I bet that at least some cops would say "no" if asked if they were at war with you.

Well, that may very well be.

Where are their SWLODs and walkouts and sickouts and protests and resignations then?

Where is just ONE denouncing Baby Bou's face being blown off by a cop grenade?

[Christian Liberty]

Quote from an idiot on another site:


The racist that you both voted for President has fueled this HATRED of police officers.

I wonder if a civil war will break out before he leaves his dictatorship?

In any event, there is without a doubt a war against law enforcement, also fueled by the left wing media per B. Hussein's instructions.

Say what?

[Thor]

I don't think so. It's not my experience, at least. If these two men were sitting in a patrol car, then they were murdered in cold blood.

I'm going to tell you: I don't have a lot of respect for people who let idiot cold-blooded murderers do their talking for them. If the police are so corrupt that every single officer is guilty of something, go out there and make the case where something legal will be done about it. Change the system.

Vote HARDER! It has been proven to work....

[invisible]

Really, and what makes you judge and jury of these two officers? Do you have proof that these two officers did anything wrong? Was the shooter innocent? Not really. He made the choice to take two lives that had nothing to do with him. He is a murderer. He deserves justice.

Editing to add the shooter is a coward. If he really had a point, he would not have run off like a coward. He shot two men in cold blood, then ran off to hide. No point at all, except being a coward.

What made the cops that have killed so many people for things like jaywalking or selling cigarettes or sleeping in a crib or making a u-turn the judges and executioners? Did anyone provide proof in an impartial court of law that they did something worthy of execution? Were those cops really innocent? Not really. They made the choice to take the lives of people who had nothing to do with them. They are murderers, and their victims deserve justice.

Where oh where is Gunny, with that wonderful quote from the guy in stalinist Russia saying how he regrets not doing more, and that their police state could have been thrown off if only the people had had the guts to fight back. That quote belongs here, front and center!

[Anti Federalist]

If the police are so corrupt that every single officer is guilty of something, go out there and make the case where something legal will be done about it. Change the system.

Oh, just by the way, that is precisely what I am trying to do, among other things.

Of course, some folks don't see a problem, so it is very hard to get them engaged.

[Anti Federalist]

Where oh where is Gunny, with that wonderful quote from the guy in stalinist Russia saying how he regrets not doing more, and that their police state could have been thrown off if only the people had had the guts to fight back. That quote belongs here, front and center!
I have no where near the stature of Gunny, but here's what you're looking for.


“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

[euphemia]

Vote HARDER! It has been proven to work....

I don't think I said anything about voting. It's a very small part of the process. There are many tools at our disposal. Local media is very helpful. It also helps that I am a fat little grandma in the middle of a very large minority district in the middle of the capitol city. My state rep did something I didn't like, so I politely called and asked for an appointment.

Representative Briley did not even know my neighborhood was in his district. I whipped out my voter registration card and tossed it on his desk. Then I kind of sucker punched him with a friendly question and then asked him about the issue on my mind. I pulled out my notepad and asked if he minded if I took notes. He gave some sort of mealy mouthed answer. I said, "Do you really think anyone buys that?" When I got home I fired off an email to a lobby group I follow and followed up with a letter to the editor and a few other things.

Well, a few weeks later it became kind of a non issue when Briley was arrested for DUI. Dash cam in that case went viral and Briley decided not to run for reelection.

That's why I keep saying people need to get out and put a face on their opinion. Go talk to city councils and state representatives. Push away from YouTube and blogs and go talk to people who are in office.

If you think your local police are not protecting and serving your community the way they ought to, then go see the mayor. Ask for a spot on the city council agenda. Be up close and personal, and stop being a blob of people. Be an articulate individual who explains the issue clearly. Take your phone. Post the video. Get the word out there that your community is in need of change and find people to help you. Clearly a lot of people here think our police department is awesome. They aren't as great as people think but I have never had a negative experience with them. People in my community would not necessarily agree.

[invisible]

I have no where near the stature of Gunny, but here's what you're looking for.


“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Yes, that's exactly it, TY! :) Needs to be bolded and the type size upped another point, though.

"you must spread some reputation around", etc, etc.

[euphemia]

Oh, just by the way, that is precisely what I am trying to do, among other things.

Of course, some folks don't see a problem, so it is very hard to get them engaged.


Well good. Be out there and be personal. I think TV viewers are way more interested in one rational individiual than they are with a mob. That's my experience, anyway. Overt brutality is not so much an issue here. It's what I consider to be underreported sexual shenanigans that seem to be happening here. It is very hard to do that research, though, because they keep it well hidden. The media here can be complicit. With so many celebrities, the media protects their favorites, and if they want access to police, they have to play nice.

[euphemia]

Shooter is not at all likely to go to prison, since he is dead.

My bad. Cowardly way out.

[Antischism]

Sounds like blowback to me. If you become part of the biggest criminal organization with seemingly boundless means to assert authority over the populace with government backing, while gaining the privilege to evade the criminal charges your average mundane would get stricken down with, this is going to be the end result when the oppressed have had enough. The police routinely use violent means to incarcerate people over petty offences and can evade charges by citing they had a reasonable fear for their lives after shooting down unarmed citizens in cold blood. They are the privileged authoritative class set to enforce social control. A police officer being taken down is akin to a slave killing his master to a lesser extent (not all cops are aware of their oppressive role). While the loss of life, even that of a police officer, isn't something I take pleasure in based on my personal morals, it is an understandable consequence with the way the system is rigged against minorities/the poor.

[Christian Liberty]

Sounds like blowback to me. If you become part of the biggest criminal organization with seemingly boundless means to assert authority over the populace with government backing, while gaining the privilege to evade the criminal charges your average mundane would get stricken down with, this is going to be the end result when the oppressed have had enough. The police routinely use violent means to incarcerate people over petty offences and can evade charges by citing they had a reasonable fear for their lives after shooting down unarmed citizens in cold blood. They are the privileged authoritative class set to enforce social control. A police officer being taken down is akin to a slave killing his master to a lesser extent (not all cops are aware of their oppressive role). While the loss of life, even that of a police officer, isn't something I take pleasure in based on my personal morals, it is an understandable consequence with the way the system is rigged against minorities/the poor.

The bold is a key component of my position on this and is ignored by many people.

[Anti Federalist]

The bold is a key component of my position on this and is ignored by many people.

They're aware.

They self justify.

[PaleoPaul]

My view is this:


If you're going into law enforcement because you want to help your community and lock up murderers, rapists, robbers, child molesters, and assaulters...you're right for the job.


If you're going into law enforcement because having a gun, a badge, and immunity to do nearly anything you want gives you a hard-on...maybe you need to look for another job.

[brushfire]

My view is this:


If you're going into law enforcement because you want to help your community and lock up murderers, rapists, robbers, child molesters, and assaulters...you're right for the job.


If you're going into law enforcement because having a gun, a badge, and immunity to do nearly anything you want gives you a hard-on...maybe you need to look for another job.

Can one man turn into the other? Power does corrupt. My personal view is that the power is a bigger issue than the individual. Take away their qualified immunity, and their legal support. Hold them accountable, and I bet many police will sprout a conscience over night.

[James Madison]

Speak for yourself, you don’t speak for me.

I don't speak for anyone. I simply read what's written and go from there.


See, this is part of why I'm indifferent. They weren't "innocent individuals". Its not like the gunman went out and shot some child somewhere. These were police officers. Violent criminals. Tell society what, they stop peddling this crap, and I'll start caring. I don't want cops getting killed. Quite the opposite. But they aren't innocent. Even by the limited standard of NAP.

Politicians are just as violent as cops. If someone murdered Ron Paul, would you be 'indifferent'? What about Rand?

Voters who elect those politicians are also guilty parties. Still 'indifferent'?

[PaleoPaul]

Can one man turn into the other? Power does corrupt. My personal view is that the power is a bigger issue than the individual. Take away their qualified immunity, and their legal support. Hold them accountable, and I bet many police will sprout a conscience over night.
I think states should also look into creating a police offenders registry. It would work in the same manner as a sex offender registry, except it would be for police brutality and police misconduct instead of sex crimes.

[AuH20]

Remember this?

http://warisacrime.org/content/bloombergs-seventh-largest-army-world


“I have my own army in the NYPD, which is the seventh biggest army in the world,” Bloomberg said, according to the New York Observer.

[DFF]

How much longer though before the army turns against it's master? The current mayor, liberal fruitcake extraordinaire Bill De Blasio (he changed his last name to sound more Italian, look it up), is banned from attending funerals from NYPD officers because of thug-coddling statements he made condemning the police department. Cops are the hammer of the establishment, and serve the elite interests, but make no mistake, they have no love for these guys. So in this respect we have something in common. Strange bed fellows we could be one day....

[ChristianAnarchist]

Vote HARDER! It has been proven to work....

And more times...

[ChristianAnarchist]

I have no where near the stature of Gunny, but here's what you're looking for.


“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again."

[Suzanimal]

NYPD Chief


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBKW3T0V0kM

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Mayor Bill de Blasio fed 'anti-police sentiment' that culminated in NYPD executions in Brooklyn, assemblywoman says (http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/12/mayor_bill_de_blasio_blamed_fo.html)

It's rather irksome that they're even going to imply de Blasio's words had more to do with fueling anti-police sentiment than, oh I don't know, putting their arms around Eric Garner's throat over something so inconsequential, essentially killing him, and, as always, getting away with it.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

“Every New Yorker should feel they were attacked, that our entire city was attacked, by this heinous individual,” said Mayor Bill de Blasio,...


Straight from the playbook:

every attack on Hillary Clinton for not knowing her place is an attack on you.
(http://www.vox.com/2014/9/23/6832243/the-sexual-threats-against-emma-watson-are-an-attack-on-women)


the threats against [Emma] Watson are already an attack on all of us.
(http://www.vox.com/2014/9/23/6832243/the-sexual-threats-against-emma-watson-are-an-attack-on-women)


This is more than an attack on the low paid – it is an attack on all of us.
(http://workinglife.org.au/2014/05/05/together-we-can-defend-this-attack-on-our-way-of-life/)

Robin Williams...character attacks that, in turn, by extension, feel like an attack on all of us who struggle to stay sober and alive each day.
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-adam-ackley-phd/the-butterfly-effect-and-_b_5677292.html)

policies which are an attack on all of us – and on the very idea of a welfare state.
(http://dwpexamination.org/forum/general-discussion/gloating-tories-dont-care-that-people-are-dying-of-poverty-on-the-real-life-benefits-street/)


Etc, etc....https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYXnhaczxrpdEkkfzofZot3AAL3XYPo MVe_-5Diu7BLw2pwO9A

[Occam's Banana]

“Every New Yorker should feel they were attacked, that our entire city was attacked, by this heinous individual,” said Mayor Bill de Blasio,...

Straight from the playbook:

every attack on Hillary Clinton for not knowing her place is an attack on you.

the threats against [Emma] Watson are already an attack on all of us.

This is more than an attack on the low paid – it is an attack on all of us.

Robin Williams...character attacks that, in turn, by extension, feel like an attack on all of us who struggle to stay sober and alive each day.

policies which are an attack on all of us – and on the very idea of a welfare state.

http://i.imgur.com/vCMjMRU.jpg

[Henry Rogue]

I don't speak for anyone. I simply read what's written and go from there.
I've seen people claim blowback, blowback is an observation not a justification.

So, the general consensus appears to be that the police officers did this to themselves.
The only people I've seen seriously claim what you stated, highlighted in bold, are the people who make excuses for the cops.

[Lucille]

http://www.voxday.blogspot.com/2014/12/4gw-in-brooklyn.html


As William S. Lind predicted it would in his book ON WAR, 4GW has arrived in America and is targeting the police. Because the police have militarized and lost their moral authority, they are now deemed legitimate enemy targets by a growing number of armed individuals.
[...]
The problem faced by the police is that their instincts are now in direct contradiction to their best long-term interests. They are increasingly corrupt, increasingly frightened, increasingly gunned-up, increasingly feeling at war with the general population, and increasingly of a different ethnicity than the people with whom they are interacting on a regular basis.

What they should do is disarm completely, stop playing soldier, abandon the concept of "law enforcement", and stop their confrontational tactics. This is highly unlikely, however, because most police officers recruited after the Drug War began are psychologically well-suited for confrontation and quasi-militarization. They're neither trained nor psychologically equipped to lower the temperature these days.

The police problem is the same one faced by occupation forces everywhere. While they have the ability to project overwhelming Mass at specific targets at will, the complete lack of Shape means that their opponents can deliver superior Mass at any time, in almost any place. The police have forgotten that their very survival depends upon the good will of the people; the people could re-enact the Sicilian Vespers and wipe out every single police officer in the country in a single night if they were so inclined. One hopes that they will come to their senses and remember this before things get any uglier.

And this isn't uglier. We'll be fortunate if the 4GW forces developing in the USA remain content with only targeting armed officers.

A reader asks: "In 2007 or so Bill Lind wrote that cops understood that you can't fight an insurgency by cracking down.Think they still know that?"

I don't know. I am concerned that they do not, as the manhunt in Los Angeles that very nearly killed some innocent women indicated a propensity to panic and overreact once they discover that they are the prey and no longer the untouchable predators.

[MRK]

I think states should also look into creating a police offenders registry. It would work in the same manner as a sex offender registry, except it would be for police brutality and police misconduct instead of sex crimes.

One of the first "There ought to be a law that..." ideas I've ever heard that sounded like we might actually ought to have that law.

edit: Still just a maybe, though.

[otherone]

Straight from the playbook:

every attack on Hillary Clinton for not knowing her place is an attack on you.
(http://www.vox.com/2014/9/23/6832243/the-sexual-threats-against-emma-watson-are-an-attack-on-women)


the threats against [Emma] Watson are already an attack on all of us.
(http://www.vox.com/2014/9/23/6832243/the-sexual-threats-against-emma-watson-are-an-attack-on-women)


This is more than an attack on the low paid – it is an attack on all of us.
(http://workinglife.org.au/2014/05/05/together-we-can-defend-this-attack-on-our-way-of-life/)

Robin Williams...character attacks that, in turn, by extension, feel like an attack on all of us who struggle to stay sober and alive each day.
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-adam-ackley-phd/the-butterfly-effect-and-_b_5677292.html)

policies which are an attack on all of us – and on the very idea of a welfare state.
(http://dwpexamination.org/forum/general-discussion/gloating-tories-dont-care-that-people-are-dying-of-poverty-on-the-real-life-benefits-street/)




https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608015873130497421&pid=15.1&P=0

[tod evans]

Fighting back for what? These guys did not do anything to him. They were sitting in their patrol car. That's not fighting back for anything. It's the coward's way.

"These guys" made the choice to hire on with a bunch of thugs, thugs who have been systemically abusing the local population and then retreating to their protected enclaves when they're done terrorizing people.

The shooter may very well have been a coward, I'll never know......But I won't label him cowardly for his attack on an army of thugs who has openly and repeatedly declared war on him and his neighbors...

I think the issue you have is with death? If this is in fact the issue then what of the deaths caused by the thugs in blue? Not just the deaths of the body but the deaths of families, of community and of society in general?

I blame government and her enforcers for all those deaths.

[enhanced_deficit]

It is unusual that media is not reporting it as terrorism but mostly colored as race relations issue.

[jmdrake]

I think states should also look into creating a police offenders registry. It would work in the same manner as a sex offender registry, except it would be for police brutality and police misconduct instead of sex crimes.

The states who are unwilling to indict a man caught on video committing what in the very least was negligent homicide will never put these same people the just let off without so much as a slap on the wrist on any kind of registry. And it's funny how fake conservatives who are against all unions when it comes to them asking for more money are strangely silent about the thuggish union behavior of the police union official who are angry over NFL players putting their hands up or even having on a t-shirt saying justice for a 12 year old boy with a BB gun who was shot down like a dog without a warning.

There is only one way this registry will ever happen. That is if you or some other private citizen sets it up.

[Weston White]

Sorry, but this so totally sounds like another false-flag attempt designed to regain the public’s favor for law enforcement, while at the future expense of our First and Second Amendments—and is just what the doctor needed to further push already sensitive law enforcement personnel closer to finally crossing over the edge with concern to the ongoing national anti-police protests, which are only gaining more and more favor and its racially motivated connotations have moreover evaporated. This sounds exactly similar to the Joseph Stack script (which was so very obviously a false-flag incident), just revised with a car and a gun.

So the official story is that this murderous fugitive that had just shot his girlfriend, leaving her for dead, decides to posts his unconscionable future intentions publicly on social media (i.e., Instagram), then travels 200-miles to NY in-order to fulfill those pointless intentions, by shooting uniformed police officers—specifically, two officers who were at the time participating in an anti-terrorism drill—finally committing himself to an act of suicide? …And then to put the cherry on top, the local law enforcement and media have the entire crime solved and all the dots connected within the first few hours—even though the two law enforcement agencies cannot even agree upon the timeline for that day? It is almost just like 9/11 all over again.

[jmdrake]

Here are my thoughts. Full disclosure. I have friends who are cops ad I wouldn't want this to happen to them. While I don't agree with many of the laws they are enforcing, I don't believe them to be inherently evil. That said, I understand how this happened. I don't condone, but I understand. From what I gather the shooter had already killed his girlfriend. Why? I don't know. Domestic violence is a problem. He decided "Screw it. My life is over anyway. I might as well make it worth something." So he went cop hunting. And the frustration at the police state for not policing the police is what justified the cop hunting in his mind. Really, Eric Garner's killer was caught on video. And the "solution" is body cameras for cops? How would that have helped anything? We would have been able to see the illegal choke hold from a different angle? And ignorant people like Charles Barkley excusing what happened based on the ridiculous notion that "He didn't mean to kill him" meant something just makes matters worse. (Yeah right wing media. Stop getting token black people who have no clue as to the law to be your spokes people.) If I get drunk, have a wreck and kill someone I'm charged with involuntary manslaughter. I'll be given some mercy and not get the death penalty because I didn't mean to kill the person. But that doesn't mean I walk free. This cop knowingly violated New York policy by using a banned choke hold. He should have been held responsible for the result of his intentional wrongful act. Killing cops is not the answer. But I don't see how this is any worse than the people I heard on talk radio the other day saying we should bomb North Korea because they might had hacked Sony because "Them North K'reans need to know not to mess with Amurika!" Seriously, what's the difference? And yes, none of us agree with such stupidity. But I bet most of us have at least one friend who is that stupid. Do we call them out on it and say "Dude. It's evil of you to advocate an action that might result in the deaths of innocent civilians just because you don't like their leader?" I'll admit myself. I don't. I've gotten tired of arguing with stupid people. Yeah I still do sometimes, but it's draining.

Anyhow, shooting cops after the fact does nothing to solve the problem. Video taping police is little better. I remember when the Rodney King video was shown. I thought "Yes! We finally have a way to stop police brutality! It's caught on video. The Black Panthers were too violent. Video cameras are non violent." And then....the cops got off. Oh someone said "Rodney King was resisting. Can't you see him resisting?" And that has become the mantra. Whenever there is a killing by police, somehow the victim is blamed. Even when Kelly Thomas was beat to death by cops who said "We're going to fuck you up", somehow he was "resisting". His face was "resisting" their fists. His rib cage "resisted" being crushed, at least for a little bit. And now we have cops abusing the people taking the video. Really there is only one way that I can think of to actually stop police brutality.

These guys:

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv234/LinksterDiversions/Signs%20of%20the%20Times/041714WJ.jpg

Need to work with these guys:

http://www.greanvillepost.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/black-panthers-seattle-1969-armed-on-capitol-steps-600x350.jpg

[NACBA]

http://cloudfront-media.reason.com/mc/ngillespie/2014_12/randpaul-sharpton.jpg?h=375&w=450

https://twitter.com/ChuckCJohnson

[tangent4ronpaul]

Bed Stuy is a poorer community in Brooklyn where people, minorities in particular, are abused by police quite routinely. I have never been there but the reputation of Bed Stuy is well known.

I seriously doubt much of anyone welcomes the presence of police officers there (of all places), most of whom certainly don't live within the communities they are patrolling.

Just an observation, but there was video of the impromptu memorial for the cops this morning. One plant, 3 bouquets and about 16 candles. Someone nailed an american flag to the wall. It would all fit on half a card table. In contrast, the memorials for the people the cops killed caused the local flower shops to run out of flowers...

It doesn't sound like the cops were that well liked.

-t

[phill4paul]

Just an observation, but there was video of the impromptu memorial for the cops this morning. One plant, 3 bouquets and about 16 candles. It would all fit on half a card table. In contrast, the memorials for the people the cops killed caused the flower shops to run out of flowers...

It doesn't sound like the cops were that well liked.

-t

Have the citizens torn down the memorial yet?


Anthony Bruno's family records Kansas City police officers tearing down memorial ribbons (video)

On Monday, the rift between Kansas City police officers and firefighters deepened over the shooting death of firefighter Anthony Bruno, who was killed by an off-duty Kansas City police officer last December.

To honor Bruno’s 27th birthday, his wife, Stephanie Bruno, and about 40 family members, friends and off-duty firefighters tied several thousand ribbons to poles and trees in downtown Kansas City Sunday evening.

But a short time after they left downtown, on-duty police officers were seen using knives to cut down ribbons and stuffing them in trash cans.

“Ribbons are used for all kinds of things,” Nino Bruno, who videotaped on-duty officers cutting down ribbons, told The Pitch. Watch the video after the jump. “To be ripped down by on-duty police officers is a great waste of resources and a violation of our First Amendment rights. It’s censorship.”

Meanwhile, police union President Brad Lemon wrote in a blog post that Bruno ribbons were put up in the neighborhood of officer Donald Hubbard, who shot and killed Anthony Bruno during an altercation December 1 while working as off-duty security at the Marriott Hotel.

In a blog statement, Lemon wrote that “thankfully that officer and his family were out of town and did not have to witness the event.” On-duty police officers responded to the scene, Lemon wrote, as did a large number of off-duty officers.


http://www.pitch.com/FastPitch/archives/2014/08/18/anthony-brunos-family-records-kansas-city-police-officers-tearing-down-memorial-ribbons-video

[Thor]

Just an observation, but there was video of the impromptu memorial for the cops this morning. One plant, 3 bouquets and about 16 candles. Someone nailed an american flag to the wall. It would all fit on half a card table. In contrast, the memorials for the people the cops killed caused the local flower shops to run out of flowers...

It doesn't sound like the cops were that well liked.

-t

Lot's of bootlickers on Fedbook tho...

[moostraks]

Sorry, but this so totally sounds like another false-flag attempt designed to regain the public’s favor for law enforcement, while at the future expense of our First and Second Amendments—and is just what the doctor needed to further push already sensitive law enforcement personnel closer to finally crossing over the edge with concern to the ongoing national anti-police protests, which are only gaining more and more favor and its racially motivated connotations have moreover evaporated. This sounds exactly similar to the Joseph Stack script (which was so very obviously a false-flag incident), just revised with a car and a gun.

So the official story is that this murderous fugitive that had just shot his girlfriend, leaving her for dead, decides to posts his unconscionable future intentions publicly on social media (i.e., Instagram), then travels 200-miles to NY in-order to fulfill those pointless intentions, by shooting uniformed police officers—specifically, two officers who were at the time participating in an anti-terrorism drill—finally committing himself to an act of suicide? …And then to put the cherry on top, the local law enforcement and media have the entire crime solved and all the dots connected within the first few hours—even though the two law enforcement agencies cannot even agree upon the timeline for that day? It is almost just like 9/11 all over again.

Cross posting as it applies directly to your post:


hours after two New York City police officers were assassinated, allegedly in an act of retaliation against police brutality, authorities in Florida say that a similar killing has just happened there...

While the police claim that this was an “assassination,” some are suggesting that they are trying to incite fear, riding the paranoia surrounding the New York killings.
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/12/another-cop-assassinated-in-retaliation-for-police-killings/#

Heads up...now some of the FB rants are starting to make sense on the recent police brutality cases. Self fulfilling prophecy it seems. Cui Bono?http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?465270-Union-NYPD-Now-a-quot-Wartime-quot-police-department

[Henry Rogue]

http://cloudfront-media.reason.com/mc/ngillespie/2014_12/randpaul-sharpton.jpg?h=375&w=450

https://twitter.com/ChuckCJohnson
Thus marks the beginning of the witch hunts.

[moostraks]

Thus marks the beginning of the witch hunts.

And anyone who opposes state violence will be tarred by the same brush and can be considered a domestic terrorist. Internet monitoring can be seen as a necessity to clamp down on discussion which will be seen as the inspiration for these "targeted" killings. Seems like a few of the msm stories are making sense along with FB spam of late...

[Thor]

If there is no internal accountability - and instead there are rulings of no indictment, paid leave, and "procedure was followed" are the go to responses; does that mean no injustice happened, and accountability just disappears and everything is whitewashed and made new and good?

More dog killings, more citizen killings out of "fear for my life", more "border" checks not near the border, forced blood draws at DUI "check points", more laws, more rules, more mraps, more military gear for local "law" enforcement.

Sounds like war on the citizen? In war, isn't the enemy at large the one your fighting against? Not just the soldier / officer who actually pulled the trigger or deployed the missile, or strangled the citizen. But the entire oppressing army is the target.

I am not saying this was right... not saying violence is the answer (that is the last thing I want.)

But I think some people are being pushed to their brink, and we will see more like this (and the 2 McDonald's cops killed in Vegas, and the 2 cops shot in the "staged" home intruder call in Atlanta, and the cop killed in Florida) if the actions of the police state continue unabated and expand. It will be guilty by association retaliation.

[jkob]

i have nothing but hatred for these pigs

[torchbearer]

A high-powered rifle wouldn't be my weapon of choice for a home invasion.

Canary Trap.
Call in the pigs, and then wait off site in the distance with high powered rifle?

[phill4paul]

Canary Trap.
Call in the pigs, and then wait off site in the distance with high powered rifle?

My thought, also.

[euphemia]

It doesn't surprise me that criminals are exploiting this. Not even a little bit.

[phill4paul]

It doesn't surprise me that criminals are exploiting this. Not even a little bit.

The police unions? Definitely.

[cajuncocoa]

I haven't read all 130+ posts in this thread, so forgive me if this theory has already been offered, but does anyone else think this could be a false flag event (and the 2 cops were just collateral damage) to discredit those who are protesting against police brutality?

[TheTexan]

Violence against cops is not the answer. Strongly worded letters, is the answer.

[Thor]

Violence against cops is not the answer. Strongly worded letters, is the answer.

And voting HARDER!

[phill4paul]

And voting HARDER!

A good citizen will pleasure his government by voting harder. It' not just about you, ya know?

[moostraks]

I haven't read all 130+ posts in this thread, so forgive me if this theory has already been offered, but does anyone else think this could be a false flag event (and the 2 cops were just collateral damage) to discredit those who are protesting against police brutality?

Post 118, Weston did...

[Anti Federalist]

http://i.imgur.com/vCMjMRU.jpg

The dominoes fall...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwTDfdck7I

[Anti Federalist]

If there is no internal accountability - and instead there are rulings of no indictment, paid leave, and "procedure was followed" are the go to responses; does that mean no injustice happened, and accountability just disappears and everything is whitewashed and made new and good?

More dog killings, more citizen killings out of "fear for my life", more "border" checks not near the border, forced blood draws at DUI "check points", more laws, more rules, more mraps, more military gear for local "law" enforcement.

Sounds like war on the citizen? In war, isn't the enemy at large the one your fighting against? Not just the soldier / officer who actually pulled the trigger or deployed the missile, or strangled the citizen. But the entire oppressing army is the target.

I am not saying this was right... not saying violence is the answer (that is the last thing I want.)

But I think some people are being pushed to their brink, and we will see more like this (and the 2 McDonald's cops killed in Vegas, and the 2 cops shot in the "staged" home intruder call in Atlanta, and the cop killed in Florida) if the actions of the police state continue unabated and expand. It will be guilty by association retaliation.

Yes, exactly.

[Anti Federalist]

Just an observation, but there was video of the impromptu memorial for the cops this morning. One plant, 3 bouquets and about 16 candles. Someone nailed an american flag to the wall. It would all fit on half a card table. In contrast, the memorials for the people the cops killed caused the local flower shops to run out of flowers...

It doesn't sound like the cops were that well liked.

-t

I wonder if the cops are going to come by and shovel them up for disposal in the interest of pedestrian safety, like they do when a Mundane's memorial is erected?

[pcosmar]

Obviously Squad Cars are dangerous.

Get rid of the cars.

[Anti Federalist]

Obviously Squad Cars are dangerous.

Get rid of the cars.

Cop sez:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0c/19/23/0c1923195e78ed48071c7f71d0289d5c.jpg

[JK/SEA]

Obviously Squad Cars are dangerous.

Get rid of the cars.

replaced with MRAPS with bullet proof glass.

[Valli6]

Thus marks the beginning of the witch hunts.
His remarks weren't anti-cop. They were anti-bad-laws-which-cops-are-expected-to-enforce. That's what he meant by "we've put our police in a difficult situation with bad laws."

[Weston White]

So these attacks are definitely looking to be more and more staged events (noting the prior mentioned attack during early hours of morning in Florida):

A third attack, failed, against NYPD:

http://nypost.com/2014/12/21/man-aimed-gun-in-cops-face-pulled-trigger-officials/

Strangely, odd machete attack against CHP and vandals strike police officer memorial in California:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-chp-officer-shoots-teen-after-attacked-by-machete-20141220-story.html

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/12/19/vandals-deface-freeway-sign-honoring-4-oakland-police-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-interstate-580-mark-dunakin-julius-romans-daniel-sakai-john-hege-vandalism/

The FBI has now issued warnings to LEO that the Black Guerilla Family is targeting white officers.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/12/fbi-black-prison-gang-targeting-white-cops/

It appears the NYPD' union is now attempting to counter all of the ongoing protesting action, by using "police supporters" to clash against legitimate protesters in order to publicize an as uncreative motto, as it is condescending, of "I CAN BREATHE".

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/12/20/police-supporters-storm-new-york-city-in-i-can-breathe-shirts-clash-with-protesters-166887

[James Madison]

Hey, Henry Rouge; hey, asshole.

You wanna call me a fuckin troll?! I've been on these forums since the goddamn beginning. What were you doing back in 2008? I was busting my ass trying to get Ron Paul elected. I lost friends, I had to endure being called a liberal, a terrorist, people thinking I should be imprisoned without due process and sent to fuckin gitmo. What the fuck do you do?!

[DFF]

Rogue is a leftist assclown. Pay him no mind.

Anyway, just as I predicted a few pages back.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/12-overflow/20141221_NYPD_0.jpg

It has begun.

[Henry Rogue]

Hey, Henry Rouge; hey, asshole.

You wanna call me a fuckin troll?! I've been on these forums since the goddamn beginning. What were you doing back in 2008? I was busting my ass trying to get Ron Paul elected. I lost friends, I had to endure being called a liberal, a terrorist, people thinking I should be imprisoned without due process and sent to fuckin gitmo. What the fuck do you do?!
I donated two thousand to the Ron Paul Campaign.
Donated to the Justin Amash Campaign.
Donated to Gunny's Campaign.
Purchased and distributed Ron Paul brochures to family, freinds, neighbors and coworkers.
Donated to Ron Paul Forums.
Here's some other worthy causes if you're interested.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463581-Announcing-RPF-Project-1-Habersham-Co-Police-Shaming-(Baby-Bou)
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?458263-We-re-Compiling-Every-Police-Involved-Shooting-In-America-Help-Us

[erowe1]

Such a dumb and counter-productive thing to do.

Just when we start making headway in getting people to trust and sympathize with the institution of the police less, someone goes and does something that cannot fail to sway the public back more towards their side.

[invisible]

Let's see, these guys who were killed went around for years stealing from people and kidnapping them at gunpoint, and these actions have been extremely well documented in newspaper reports, and repeatedly admitted to in sworn testimony. This would seem to be the very definition of a thug. DFF, 69360, and tobismom have all said repeatedly in other threads how thugs deserve to be killed, and how the people who kill thugs are doing society a favor. So why is it that these very same posters are here again, but this time they are all saying that these particular thugs somehow do not deserve to be killed? Why do some thugs deserve to be killed, and not others?

[James Madison]

I donated two thousand to the Ron Paul Campaign.
Donated to the Justin Amash Campaign.
Donated to Gunny's Campaign.
Purchased and distributed Ron Paul brochures to family, freinds, neighbors and coworkers.
Donated to Ron Paul Forums.


Already did all of this...while in high school. As well as Massie, Rand, and a few local politicians.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463581-Announcing-RPF-Project-1-Habersham-Co-Police-Shaming-(Baby-Bou)
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?458263-We-re-Compiling-Every-Police-Involved-Shooting-In-America-Help-Us

Worthy causes. But can't work on them now because I'm in medical school and need to work 12-hour shifts during my breaks.

[erowe1]

Let's see, these guys who were killed went around for years stealing from people and kidnapping them at gunpoint, and these actions have been extremely well documented in newspaper reports, and repeatedly admitted to in sworn testimony.

Source?

[invisible]

Source?

Surely there are many of them. Don't newspapers report arrests and property seizures? Don't cops testify in court that they arrest people and take their property?

[erowe1]

Surely there are many of them. Don't newspapers report arrests and property seizures? Don't cops testify in court that they arrest people and take their property?

I don't know. You made the claim. Have you actually seen these newspaper reports about these two individuals that you referenced? Or did you just make that up?

[invisible]

I don't know. You made the claim. Have you actually seen these newspaper reports about these two individuals that you referenced? Or did you just make that up?

It's so strikingly obvious on it's face, that it's not necessary to bother to check. It's so strikingly obvious that these are everyday activities inherent in the job description, that it's not necessary to check. But if you really want to do so, by all means, go ahead.

[James Madison]

Let's see, these guys who were killed went around for years stealing from people and kidnapping them at gunpoint, and these actions have been extremely well documented in newspaper reports, and repeatedly admitted to in sworn testimony. This would seem to be the very definition of a thug. DFF, 69360, and tobismom have all said repeatedly in other threads how thugs deserve to be killed, and how the people who kill thugs are doing society a favor. So why is it that these very same posters are here again, but this time they are all saying that these particular thugs somehow do not deserve to be killed? Why do some thugs deserve to be killed, and not others?

The major difference between these deaths and recent police killings is intent.

I don't have a problem with the Mike Brown shooting because anytime someone is on top of you, deadly force is acceptable. (see Trayvon Martin)
The Garner decision was crap, but the officer wasn't trying to kill him. There's no need for MMA-style takedowns, but try that move against any of us and nobody dies.

Completely different than someone deliberately setting out to kill someone.

[phill4paul]

The major difference between these deaths and recent police killings is intent.

I don't have a problem with the Mike Brown shooting because anytime someone is on top of you, deadly force is acceptable. (see Trayvon Martin)
The Garner decision was crap, but the officer wasn't trying to kill him. There's no need for MMA-style takedowns, but try that move against any of us and nobody dies.

Completely different than someone deliberately setting out to kill someone.

So I can kill whomever I want, in whatever manner I want, as long as there is no intent. At least not so as anyone knows. Is that your premise?

[James Madison]

So I can kill whomever I want, in whatever manner I want, as long as there is no intent. At least not so as anyone knows. Is that your premise?

The Garner cop should have been punished...probably involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter. But that's a big difference from the first degree murder charges that this guy would have faced if he hadn't offed himself. That's the difference between 15 years and getting the chair. Revenge killing is arguably justified in the latter, but clearly is immoral with the former.

The OP was replying to a question asking why it was okay to kill 'thugs' like Mike Brown but not 'thugs' like these cops.

[phill4paul]

The Garner cop should have been punished...probably involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter. But that's a big difference from the first degree murder charges that this guy would have faced if he hadn't offed himself. That's the difference between 15 years and getting the chair. Revenge killing is arguably justified in the latter, but clearly is immoral with the former.

The OP was replying to a question asking why it was okay to kill 'thugs' like Mike Brown but not 'thugs' like these cops.

Perhaps he wouldn't have "offed himself" if he had a citizenry review board that said "Naw, man, we investigated. Those pigs made a furtive hand gesture. We're totally cool with what went down." Then the DA brought witnesses in to testify on his behalf at his grand jury trial knowing that they were not even present at the time of the incident. Then a DA allowed him to sit and give his side of the story, never cross-examining and in fact leading him, knowing that the cops side, obviously, would never be heard. Sound familiar?

[Christian Liberty]

The Garner cop should have been punished...probably involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter. But that's a big difference from the first degree murder charges that this guy would have faced if he hadn't offed himself. That's the difference between 15 years and getting the chair. Revenge killing is arguably justified in the latter, but clearly is immoral with the former.

The OP was replying to a question asking why it was okay to kill 'thugs' like Mike Brown but not 'thugs' like these cops.

If a man is shouting that he can't breathe and you choke him out, that's first degree murder. And the thug cops who stood around him and watched are also responsible.

All of them deserve execution.

[erowe1]

It's so strikingly obvious on it's face, that it's not necessary to bother to check. It's so strikingly obvious that these are everyday activities inherent in the job description, that it's not necessary to check. But if you really want to do so, by all means, go ahead.

Doesn't this mean that it should be really easy to provide proof for your claim?

Do you know of any?

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Giuliani says the killings are a result of "four months of anti-cop propaganda". As opposed to a lifetime of pro-police propaganda. I can still remember in second or third grade, at like eight years old, doing a required week-long 'love the police' class assignment in elementary school.

[jmdrake]

The major difference between these deaths and recent police killings is intent.

I don't have a problem with the Mike Brown shooting because anytime someone is on top of you, deadly force is acceptable. (see Trayvon Martin)
The Garner decision was crap, but the officer wasn't trying to kill him. There's no need for MMA-style takedowns, but try that move against any of us and nobody dies.

Completely different than someone deliberately setting out to kill someone.

Ummm.....you do know that even Darren Wilson isn't claiming that Mike Brown was on top of him when he shot him right? By Wilson's on statement Brown was at least 30 feet away, but the evidence suggests that Brown might have been 150 feet away. What happened when Brown was at the car allegedly reaching for Wilson's gun is not dispositive to the case. What really matters is what happened at the time of the shooting. And that is in dispute with the witnesses favorable to the cop now being discredit for changing their story in a material way (witness # 10 initially said Mike Brown was "walking on the sidewalk" when everyone knows that's not true and witness # 40 changed her story as to why she was in the neighborhood. Her latest story was she was doing research to help her get over her admitted racism).

And as for Eric Garner that was NOT a takedown move! It was a chokehold! Anybody who knows jack about martial arts knows that! Seriously, that little cop would never have been able to take Garner down from that position if he was't choking him. He jumped on Garner's back and put his hooks in. You have no leverage for doing a takedown from that position. And I'm sure the cop wasn't trying to kill Garner. Guess what? If you go and drive your car and 90 miles per hour through a school zone and you hit a kid and kill him the fact that you didn't mean to do it doesn't you don't get indicted for a crime. There is such a thing as negligent homicide (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article125.htm#p125.10) and that's what this cop should have been charged with! He took a reckless risk when he put Garner in a choke hold that he knew or should have known went against department policy!

Please learn the law and facts of each case. Both cops should have been indicted. Period.

[jmdrake]

If a man is shouting that he can't breathe and you choke him out, that's first degree murder. And the thug cops who stood around him and watched are also responsible.

All of them deserve execution.

I would have indicted for 3rd degree murder. But it was not a "takedown" move. It was an illegal choke hold. The "intent" of the cop to kill was irrelevant. He had the "intent" to put Garner in an illegal and dangerous hold and he is no different than a drunk driver who kills someone.

[GunnyFreedom]

Mayor Bill de Blasio fed 'anti-police sentiment' that culminated in NYPD executions in Brooklyn, assemblywoman says (http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/12/mayor_bill_de_blasio_blamed_fo.html)

It's rather irksome that they're even going to imply de Blasio's words had more to do with fueling anti-police sentiment than, oh I don't know, putting their arms around Eric Garner's throat over something so inconsequential, essentially killing him, and, as always, getting away with it.

I think this is one of the things that annoys me the most about all of it, and others like it. Whenever there is a little kickback it is the fault of everyone except for the guy who actually did the violence, to inspire the kickback. There's one of the reasons that society is falling the hell apart, Americans involved in public policy are positively deranged, or they are attempting to manipulate the population into derangement themselves.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

http://cloudfront-media.reason.com/mc/ngillespie/2014_12/randpaul-sharpton.jpg?h=375&w=450

This sanctimonious blogger is the idiot responsible for putting out that Rolling Stone liar's name. He's being purposefully disingenuous here. He needs to go back to his muckraking and stay out politics, which he clearly knows little about.

[Christian Liberty]

Giuliani says the killings are a result of "four months of anti-cop propaganda". As opposed to a lifetime of pro-police propaganda. I can still remember in second or third grade, at like eight years old, doing a required week-long 'love the police' class assignment in elementary school.

What did you have to do?

Did you understand the problems with that at age 8?

I will definitely homeschool any kids I have, and they are not getting taught pro-police propaganda.

I would have indicted for 3rd degree murder. But it was not a "takedown" move. It was an illegal choke hold. The "intent" of the cop to kill was irrelevant. He had the "intent" to put Garner in an illegal and dangerous hold and he is no different than a drunk driver who kills someone.

No, I saw what that cop did, and its FAR worse than "a drunk driver killing someone."

A drunk driver who accidentally hits someone and kills them is guilty of manslaughter because he didn't have intent, but he still killed someone.

That cop clearly had intent to kill. I'm having a hard time fathoming anyone being stupid enough to think "I can't breathe" really means anything but "I can't breathe." There was clear intent to kill. I don't see why you are saying 3rd degree murder. Clearly 1st.

Doubly so considering the cop was the initial aggressor in the situation. Garner didn't commit an actual crime. Which only furthers my conviction that whatever his name is should be executed.

[erowe1]

If a man is shouting that he can't breathe and you choke him out, that's first degree murder. And the thug cops who stood around him and watched are also responsible.

All of them deserve execution.

That's a pretty dangerous road you're going down there. Not just personally, but ethically.

[Christian Liberty]

Ummm.....you do know that even Darren Wilson isn't claiming that Mike Brown was on top of him when he shot him right? By Wilson's on statement Brown was at least 30 feet away, but the evidence suggests that Brown might have been 150 feet away. What happened when Brown was at the car allegedly reaching for Wilson's gun is not dispositive to the case. What really matters is what happened at the time of the shooting. And that is in dispute with the witnesses favorable to the cop now being discredit for changing their story in a material way (witness # 10 initially said Mike Brown was "walking on the sidewalk" when everyone knows that's not true and witness # 40 changed her story as to why she was in the neighborhood. Her latest story was she was doing research to help her get over her admitted racism).

And as for Eric Garner that was NOT a takedown move! It was a chokehold! Anybody who knows jack about martial arts knows that! Seriously, that little cop would never have been able to take Garner down from that position if he was't choking him. He jumped on Garner's back and put his hooks in. You have no leverage for doing a takedown from that position. And I'm sure the cop wasn't trying to kill Garner. Guess what? If you go and drive your car and 90 miles per hour through a school zone and you hit a kid and kill him the fact that you didn't mean to do it doesn't you don't get indicted for a crime. There is such a thing as negligent homicide (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article125.htm#p125.10) and that's what this cop should have been charged with! He took a reckless risk when he put Garner in a choke hold that he knew or should have known went against department policy!

Please learn the law and facts of each case. Both cops should have been indicted. Period.

I honestly don't know as much about the Wilson case, hence why I haven't really been commenting on it. I agree he should have been indicted, but I have a hard time saying "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" could be pulled from that muck.

[erowe1]

What did you have to do?

Did you understand the problems with that at age 8?

I will definitely homeschool any kids I have, and they are not getting taught pro-police propaganda.


No, I saw what that cop did, and its FAR worse than "a drunk driver killing someone."

A drunk driver who accidentally hits someone and kills them is guilty of manslaughter because he didn't have intent, but he still killed someone.

That cop clearly had intent to kill. I'm having a hard time fathoming anyone being stupid enough to think "I can't breathe" really means anything but "I can't breathe." There was clear intent to kill. I don't see why you are saying 3rd degree murder. Clearly 1st.

Doubly so considering the cop was the initial aggressor in the situation. Garner didn't commit an actual crime. Which only furthers my conviction that whatever his name is should be executed.

Making a person not be able to breathe doesn't usually kill them.

[James Madison]

If a man is shouting that he can't breathe and you choke him out, that's first degree murder. And the thug cops who stood around him and watched are also responsible.

If you continued to choke him after he was unconscious until there was no longer a pulse that's first degree murder. Simply saying "I can't breathe" when you're in a freakin' chokehold and passing out is not enough, by itself, to kill anyone so long as you don't continue to restrict the airway. This isn't my opinion...this is knowing how the human body works. No damage to the hyoid...larynx is intact and unremarkable. There's no way this argument would get past anyone with training in the medical sciences. That's exactly why it's so damn appealing to the lowest common denominator. Same thing with people who think vaccines cause autism or the 'evolution is just a theory' crowd. Science is tough, and you better do your homework, or you'll probably end up with egg on your face.


All of them deserve execution.

You call for someone's execution like once a week. It's becoming comical. Jeezus must be proud of you.

[DFF]

So why is it that these very same posters are here again, but this time they are all saying that these particular thugs somehow do not deserve to be killed?

I don't think two cops who had zero to do with Saint Brown or Saint Garner deserved to die. Sorry you feel they did. Ass.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/12-overflow/20141221_NYPD1.jpg

[Christian Liberty]

That's a pretty dangerous road you're going down there. Not just personally, but ethically.

If someone had attempted to rescue Garner, the police who were standing around would have, if necessary, used lethal violence to defend the cop murder.

I assume that's the part you're commenting on. What exactly is your problem with the post? Explain?

If a gang member (assume private gang) choked a random guy on the street to death and a bunch of his fellow gang members stood around heavily armed and clearly willing to kill anyone who interfered, yet not taking any actual action, what would you say they are guilty of?

I am not sure actually. I may be willing to take back the part about the cops who watched. But I think they are clearly guilty of something.

And yes, I see a huge difference between that situation and some random guy who has no affiliation with the gang member deciding not to get involved one way or the other (which shouldn't be a crime.)

[Christian Liberty]

Making a person not be able to breathe doesn't usually kill them.

Is choking someone not attempted murder? It seems like it to me.

[erowe1]

If someone had attempted to rescue Garner, the police who were standing around would have, if necessary, used lethal violence to defend the cop murder.

I assume that's the part you're commenting on. What exactly is your problem with the post? Explain?


It looks like you're saying they deserve to be executed for what you think they would have done if something that hadn't happen had happened. Is that right?

[erowe1]

Is choking someone not attempted murder? It seems like it to me.

I would say that if you choke someone in such a way that would only result in death in some unusual circumstances, and you are not aware that such circumstances obtain in this case, so that you have good reason to believe that you are not killing them, and it happens to result in death, then that's manslaughter.

I know people who study martial arts and who have deliberately gotten choked to the point of passing out in their training. Usually it takes more than that to kill someone.

[DFF]

I would say that if you choke someone in such a way that would only result in death in some unusual circumstances, and you are not aware that such circumstances obtain in this case, so that you have good reason to believe that you are not killing them, and it happens to result in death, then that's manslaughter.

Precisely. The officer didn't intentionally kill Garner. What most likely killed him was the fact that he was morbidly obese. For all we know, in the absence of the encounter with the NYPD, he may have dropped dead later that day anyway from a massive heart attack.

[Christian Liberty]

I would say that if you choke someone in such a way that would only result in death in some unusual circumstances, and you are not aware that such circumstances obtain in this case, so that you have good reason to believe that you are not killing them, and it happens to result in death, then that's manslaughter.

I know people who study martial arts and who have deliberately gotten choked to the point of passing out in their training. Usually it takes more than that to kill someone.

So you are saying his intent wasn't to kill but merely to knock him out?

So, let's look at this.

Say I don't like some random activity you are engaging in, so I decide to try to kidnap you. You resist me, so I attempt to choke you out with intent to knock you out, but I actually kill you. What should my sentence be?

[Christian Liberty]

It looks like you're saying they deserve to be executed for what you think they would have done if something that hadn't happen had happened. Is that right?

I agree that this is problematic. Fair point.

[erowe1]

So you are saying his intent wasn't to kill but merely to knock him out?


I have no idea. I think Jmdrake's explanation was pretty good.

[Christian Liberty]

I don't think two cops who had zero to do with Saint Brown or Saint Garner deserved to die. Sorry you feel they did. Ass.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/12-overflow/20141221_NYPD1.jpg

I assume this is a different Ramos than the one who killed Kelly Thomas?

[Christian Liberty]

I have no idea. I think Jmdrake's explanation was pretty good.

I think even if that's true its still a capital case per the Bible. But then, even the arrest (kidnapping) by itself would have been. Even if we're generous and call it manslaughter, it should still be significantly punished.

[aGameOfThrones]

Precisely. The officer didn't intentionally kill Garner. What most likely killed him was the fact that he was morbidly obese. For all we know, in the absence of the encounter with the NYPD, he may have dropped dead later that day anyway from a massive heart attack.

lol so funny

[jmdrake]

Precisely. The officer didn't intentionally kill Garner. What most likely killed him was the fact that he was morbidly obese. For all we know, in the absence of the encounter with the NYPD, he may have dropped dead later that day anyway from a massive heart attack.

:rolleyes: Bollocks! Read the coroner's report. No mention of cardiac arrest at all. The cop intentionally put him in a illegal chokehold and the coroner ruled throat compression not heart attack, as the cause of death. Open and shut case of criminally negligent homicide. Intent to kill is irrelevant. Intent to do the reckless act is all that matters for that charge.

[jmdrake]

Precisely. The officer didn't intentionally kill Garner. What most likely killed him was the fact that he was morbidly obese. For all we know, in the absence of the encounter with the NYPD, he may have dropped dead later that day anyway from a massive heart attack.

:rolleyes: Bollocks! Read the coroner's report. No mention of cardiac arrest at all. The cop intentionally put him in a illegal chokehold and the coroner ruled throat compression not heart attack, as the cause of death. Open and shut case of criminally negligent homicide. Intent to kill is irrelevant. Intent to do the reckless act is all that matters for that charge.

[jmdrake]

I don't think two cops who had zero to do with Saint Brown or Saint Garner deserved to die. Sorry you feel they did. Ass.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/12-overflow/20141221_NYPD1.jpg

I feel for the kid. I really do. His dad's death does nothing to bring Eric Garner back. But this sympathy for him rings hollow from people who, in defiance of the coroner's report, still want to rule Garner's death a heart attack. Eric Garner had a kid too.

[jmdrake]

I think even if that's true its still a capital case per the Bible. But then, even the arrest (kidnapping) by itself would have been. Even if we're generous and call it manslaughter, it should still be significantly punished.

I think per the Bible this is a case where the accused would have qualified for life in a "city of refuge." Not quite prison, but not complete freedom either. I think the cop in the Garner case wrongfully discounted the risk. This choke gets used in the UFC all the time and he might have thought "If they can do it, why can't I?" The problem is that in the UFC the ref would have stopped the fight as soon as Garner said "I can't breathe."

[euphemia]

There was a lot about the Garner situation that was not handled well, from the police down to the emergency medical people at the scene. It is a very bad situation all the way around.

I am afraid that the media has not held up their responsibility, either.

The people of New York City should be demanding better leadership at all levels. It is really bad when the mayor can't be trusted, and has a poor relationship with law enforcement. Nobody is listening, and the people are the losers in all the politics.

I am very familiar with the area where these two officers were shot. We have people very close to us who live, work, and go to school right there. It is a community that is working hard to be better. This is just a nightmare for people who are not being heard by their leaders.

[tod evans]

This is just a nightmare for people who are not being heard by their leaders.

Right there is the crux of the entire problem....

They are not their leaders, they are overlords and behave as such.

[Anti Federalist]

I feel for the kid. I really do. His dad's death does nothing to bring Eric Garner back. But this sympathy for him rings hollow from people who, in defiance of the coroner's report, still want to rule Garner's death a heart attack. Eric Garner had a kid too.

Jaden Ramos' father should not have started a war.

He should not have donned the uniform of the occupying army.

Even the beaten and subdued of Europe under Nazi rule managed to take a shot at the random SS official from time to time.

[Christian Liberty]

I think per the Bible this is a case where the accused would have qualified for life in a "city of refuge." Not quite prison, but not complete freedom either. I think the cop in the Garner case wrongfully discounted the risk. This choke gets used in the UFC all the time and he might have thought "If they can do it, why can't I?" The problem is that in the UFC the ref would have stopped the fight as soon as Garner said "I can't breathe."

Assuming manslaughter, you're right that he would have been exiled to the city of refuge for the manslaughter. But he would have been executed for kidnapping, which is what he was trying to do when Garner "resisted."

Mind you, I know this is a point the purists and the more pragmatic people break on. And its almost impossible to actually deal with in a society that makes kidnapping "legal."

[Christian Liberty]

I feel for the kid. I really do. His dad's death does nothing to bring Eric Garner back. But this sympathy for him rings hollow from people who, in defiance of the coroner's report, still want to rule Garner's death a heart attack. Eric Garner had a kid too.

Agreed.

[GunnyFreedom]

So you are saying his intent wasn't to kill but merely to knock him out?

So, let's look at this.

Say I don't like some random activity you are engaging in, so I decide to try to kidnap you. You resist me, so I attempt to choke you out with intent to knock you out, but I actually kill you. What should my sentence be?

You can ignore the first part, because the state will have assumed the authority to make the arrest. It would not have gotten this far had there not been some kind of warrant. So in a court of law that will be taken as a given and we can disregard it.

As for the rest of it, "You resist me, so I attempt to choke you out with intent to knock you out, but I actually kill you. What should my sentence be?"

Negligent homicide. Because the specific choke hold used is not legal, that would be "Criminally Negligent Manslaughter/Homicide"

Different states will hold it as a different class of felony, which would affect sentencing guidelines etc.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Patrick Lynch, president of the Patrolman's Benevolent Association in New York, said there was "blood on the hands" of demonstrators and elected officials who have criticized police tactics.

Wow, so apparently people are just supposed to shut up and say nothing. What a clown.

[Christian Liberty]

You can ignore the first part, because the state will have assumed the authority to make the arrest. It would not have gotten this far had there not been some kind of warrant. So in a court of law that will be taken as a given and we can disregard it.

OK, I know it would be, but if we're all bound by the same morality (which I think you acknowledge, I know erowe1 acknowledges, and I know I acknowledge) why should we "disregard" that which is morally kidnapping?

I was talking about what "should" happen not what actually would.


As for the rest of it, "You resist me, so I attempt to choke you out with intent to knock you out, but I actually kill you. What should my sentence be?"

Negligent homicide. Because the specific choke hold used is not legal, that would be "Criminally Negligent Manslaughter/Homicide"

Different states will hold it as a different class of felony, which would affect sentencing guidelines etc.

OK, fair enough. If we presuppose (for whatever reason) that he was justified in making the arrest than this may be correct. It certainly seemed like he was trying to kill him from the video though.

[Anti Federalist]

Wow, so apparently people are just supposed to shut up and say nothing. What a clown.

Yes, essentially, that is what the new AmeriKa is.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?461863-Either-Praise-the-Police-or-Shut-Up

[GunnyFreedom]

OK, I know it would be, but if we're all bound by the same morality (which I think you acknowledge, I know erowe1 acknowledges, and I know I acknowledge) why should we "disregard" that which is morally kidnapping?

In order to justify the underlying warrant, one would have to justify the practice of arresting people for failing to pay a tax. Although neither I nor the scripture supports such a practice, it does treat it as "an existing condition of reality." The "Render unto Caesar" challenge arose from this exact same question. I, therefore, whether I like it or not am forced to treat it the same way until I can raise enough spiritual and/or political capital to change it.


I was talking about what "should" happen not what actually would.

OK, fair enough. If we presuppose (for whatever reason) that he was justified in making the arrest than this may be correct. It certainly seemed like he was trying to kill him from the video though.

We are in King Herod's court, my friend, if you want some kind of justice then you have to find it according to his rules. Wishing the rules were not so will not help, instead using the rules to accomplish YOUR purpose, now that will make a difference.

[Antischism]

The NYPD, like every PD, but especially the NYPD in my experience, thinks they're above criticism and should be lauded for being cops. These people were riding high after 9/11 garnering praise and being heralded as heroes who deserve nothing but the public's full compliance and trust. They enjoyed years of Giuliani shielding them from all criticism and a public opinion that they should be given the benefit of the doubt at all costs. One of the issues with cops that's very apparent, is that they're ego-driven and never want to admit to fault. They will protect their own and criticize anyone who dares to question the police. As soon as people start to hold police to the fire (including de Blasio recently), they launch verbal, hyperbolic attacks in their direction such as:


George E. Pataki ✔ @GovernorPataki
Follow
Sickened by these barbaric acts, which sadly are a predictable outcome of divisive anti-cop rhetoric of #ericholder & #mayordeblasio. #NYPD


Joe Walsh @WalshFreedom
Follow
Hey Obama & de Blasio, since Ferguson & Garner, attacks on police officers are way up. Your words mattered. And now 2 cops dead.

Link (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/12/20/police-unions-others-blast-de-blasio-after-shooting-deaths-of-2-nypd-cops/)

“There’s blood on many hands tonight. Those that incited violence on the streets under the guise of protest that tried to tear down what NYPD officers did every day. We tried to warn it must not go on, it cannot be tolerated,” Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch said. “That blood on the hands starts at City Hall in the office of the mayor.”

It's this idea that the actions of police should not be questioned and that the PD should be backed and shielded from all criticism. Before being revered as "heroes," the NYPD was under a lot of heat for shooting the unarmed Amadou Diallo 41 times which resulted in the offending officers being acquitted, and Abner Louima getting brutalized/sodomized with a broom handle at the police station after having been roughed up in the back of their police vehicle. September 11th of course, changed the narrative for a while along with Giuliani's personal blessings. The public seemed to do a 180 and it wasn't until now that people began to wake from their slumber. I wouldn't be surprised if the NYPD wants to wage a war on us citizens protesting against the biggest gang in America.


Rep. Peter King said it is “time for elected officials to stand by the men and women of law enforcement and end the demeaning of police officers and grand juries.”

But hey, I'll let the head of the police union tell you a little more (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/editorial-enemy-pat-article-1.2050367). Same guy who said the person taping the Eric Garner assault was "demonizing the good work of police officers."


“If we won’t get support when we do our jobs, if we’re going to get hurt for doing what’s right, then we’re going to do it the way they want it. Let me be perfectly clear. We will use extreme discretion in every encounter,” Lynch said, adding:

“Our friends, we’re courteous to them. Our enemies, extreme discretion. The rules are made by them to hurt you. Well, now we’ll use those rules to protect us.”

He went on: “There’s a book they make for us where, if you carried it with you, you won’t need to go to the gym. Every time there’s a problem, they tell us what we can’t do. They tell us what we shouldn’t do. They never tell us what we can do.

“We’re going to take that book, their rules, and we’re going to protect ourselves, because they won’t. We will do it the way they want us to do it. We will do it with their stupid rules, even the ones that don’t work.”

[Anti Federalist]

He went on: “There’s a book they make for us where, if you carried it with you, you won’t need to go to the gym. Every time there’s a problem, they tell us what we can’t do. They tell us what we shouldn’t do. They never tell us what we can do.

“We’re going to take that book, their rules, and we’re going to protect ourselves, because they won’t. We will do it the way they want us to do it. We will do it with their stupid rules, even the ones that don’t work.”

Why don't you assholes just all go on strike like you used to, seemed like, every year, back in the 1970s.

[jmdrake]

Jaden Ramos' father should not have started a war.

He should not have donned the uniform of the occupying army.

Even the beaten and subdued of Europe under Nazi rule managed to take a shot at the random SS official from time to time.

You know, I recently read a book about a Nazi soldier who was drafted and made it a point never to kill anyone, not even another soldier. To avoid ever killing anyone, he threw away his gun and replaced it with a piece of wood cut out and painted to look like a gun. He was a Christian. (Seventh-Day Adventist). If he had resisted the draft his family might have been killed. They ended up having to run for their lives anyway. Once he found out the SS were killing Jews, he would go ahead of his company to villages and warn the Jews to leave. Some heeded his warning and lived. Some did not and died. Eventually the war ended and he was able to reunite with his family. While I could imagine some civilian in occupied territory killing him, that would have been sad. I understand anger at the police in general. I realize that we live in a country with a lot of corrupt politicians passing all sorts of ridiculous laws like "You can't sell cigarettes without a license" and that for the most part police go along with enforcing these stupid laws. But I still find the deaths of these officers sad. They didn't pass the laws and they have grown up not fully understanding the nature of the system they are working for. I believe the to be victims in more ways than one.

[jmdrake]

Why don't you assholes just all go on strike like you used to, seemed like, every year, back in the 1970s.

Because if they did and the crime rate stayed down they might become seen as irrelevant.

[Christian Liberty]

In order to justify the underlying warrant, one would have to justify the practice of arresting people for failing to pay a tax. Although neither I nor the scripture supports such a practice, it does treat it as "an existing condition of reality." The "Render unto Caesar" challenge arose from this exact same question. I, therefore, whether I like it or not am forced to treat it the same way until I can raise enough spiritual and/or political capital to change it.


I am not sure what this has to do with anything. The whole question that led to "render unto caesar", whatever else you might say about that text, is about "paying taxes" not collecting them. I think this issue is Biblically clear.

That said, we don't disagre on the reality of the situation. We are indeed in "Herod's Court" so to speak. You were talking about what the law is, I was talking about what it should be.




We are in King Herod's court, my friend, if you want some kind of justice then you have to find it according to his rules. Wishing the rules were not so will not help, instead using the rules to accomplish YOUR purpose, now that will make a difference.

[James Madison]

Ummm.....you do know that even Darren Wilson isn't claiming that Mike Brown was on top of him when he shot him right?

Darren Wilson's testimony is largely irrelevant if there is physical evidence that refutes it. And it's there in bundles. Multiple pathologists, autopsy results, and DNA analysis. The presence of Brown's DNA on the firearm is indicative of point-blank discharge of the pistol, as is the residue under Brown's fingernail. Now, while the fatal shot wasn't fired while Brown was on top of Wilson, that Brown did so once means there was reasonable suspicion he would do it again. If he was charging at Wilson, which is what the autopsy suggests, I fail to see how any of us would have acted under a different scenario.


By Wilson's on statement Brown was at least 30 feet away, but the evidence suggests that Brown might have been 150 feet away.

Do you honestly think Wilson is a good enough shot to hit a target, even an obese target, 150 feet away with a handgun? Cops are notoriously bad shots. There's no reason for Wilson to even attempt this kind of shot: he probably wouldn't make it, high probability of collateral, and, worst of all, there's no motive.


What happened when Brown was at the car allegedly reaching for Wilson's gun is not dispositive to the case.

It is because in doing so once, he's proven his intent and is therefore willing to do so again.


And that is in dispute with the witnesses favorable to the cop now being discredit for changing their story in a material way (witness # 10 initially said Mike Brown was "walking on the sidewalk" when everyone knows that's not true and witness # 40 changed her story as to why she was in the neighborhood. Her latest story was she was doing research to help her get over her admitted racism).

Except anecdotal evidence is usually flimsy and is the worst type of evidence there is. That's why you bring in the doctors and the scientists. Science gives you real answers; witnesses are usually full of shit.



And as for Eric Garner that was NOT a takedown move! It was a chokehold! Anybody who knows jack about martial arts knows that

Oh, sorry, I have a life.


Seriously, that little cop would never have been able to take Garner down from that position if he was't choking him. He jumped on Garner's back and put his hooks in. You have no leverage for doing a takedown from that position.

Again, I don't enjoy watching two mostly naked men wrestle each other for millions of dollars.


And I'm sure the cop wasn't trying to kill Garner. Guess what? If you go and drive your car and 90 miles per hour through a school zone and you hit a kid and kill him the fact that you didn't mean to do it doesn't you don't get indicted for a crime. There is such a thing as negligent homicide (http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article125.htm#p125.10) and that's what this cop should have been charged with! He took a reckless risk when he put Garner in a choke hold that he knew or should have known went against department policy!


And lo and behold, I said exactly that if you would have read my response like five posts later.


Please learn the law and facts of each case. Both cops should have been indicted. Period.

Now why could that be?

[Christian Liberty]

You know, I recently read a book about a Nazi soldier who was drafted and made it a point never to kill anyone, not even another soldier. To avoid ever killing anyone, he threw away his gun and replaced it with a piece of wood cut out and painted to look like a gun. He was a Christian. (Seventh-Day Adventist). If he had resisted the draft his family might have been killed. They ended up having to run for their lives anyway. Once he found out the SS were killing Jews, he would go ahead of his company to villages and warn the Jews to leave. Some heeded his warning and lived. Some did not and died. Eventually the war ended and he was able to reunite with his family. While I could imagine some civilian in occupied territory killing him, that would have been sad. I understand anger at the police in general. I realize that we live in a country with a lot of corrupt politicians passing all sorts of ridiculous laws like "You can't sell cigarettes without a license" and that for the most part police go along with enforcing these stupid laws. But I still find the deaths of these officers sad. They didn't pass the laws and they have grown up not fully understanding the nature of the system they are working for. I believe the to be victims in more ways than one.

It would have been sad had he been killed, but it wouldn't really have been the civilian's fault either.

I agree that its sad when an officer dies. Its sad when a human life is taken, and as you say, most of them do not really know what they are doing. Its just not sad in the "how dare anyone lash out at the law enforcement who work so hard to protect us" sense.

[Anti Federalist]

I believe them to be victims in more ways than one.

That's usually the case, in war.

Nothing but victims and no real "winner".

Which is why they should never have started one.

[jmdrake]

Darren Wilson's testimony is largely irrelevant if there is physical evidence that refutes it. And it's there in bundles. Multiple pathologists, autopsy results, and DNA analysis. The presence of Brown's DNA on the firearm is indicative of point-blank discharge of the pistol, as is the residue under Brown's fingernail. Now, while the fatal shot wasn't fired while Brown was on top of Wilson, that Brown did so once means there was reasonable suspicion he would do it again. If he was charging at Wilson, which is what the autopsy suggests, I fail to see how any of us would have acted under a different scenario.

Mike Brown was not killed when he was shot at point blank range. And the whole "reasonable suspicion" argument is bollocks. Either he was walking with his hands up as multiple credible witnesses said or he charging as the two DISCREDITED witnesses for Darren Wilson said! Based on the probable cause standard that usually holds his should have been indicted. The prosecutor threw the indictment. Had this been a real prosecution no exculpatory evidence would have been presented. Worse the prosecution introduced a law to the grand jury that had already been overturned as unconstitutional.

Really I don't know why you can't just admit you were wrong in your early claim that Mike Brown was on top of Wilson when he was killed. He wasn't.



Do you honestly think Wilson is a good enough shot to hit a target, even an obese target, 150 feet away with a handgun? Cops are notoriously bad shots. There's no reason for Wilson to even attempt this kind of shot: he probably wouldn't make it, high probability of collateral, and, worst of all, there's no motive.


Have you never heard of something called luck? And as for "collateral damage" the street most likely cleared out once the shooting started back at the car. Also, I said 30 to 150 feet away! Wilson claimed 30 feet. The mark off from the car to Brown was 150 feet. Now maybe Wilson was following on foot. But why the hell do that? He could have stayed in his car, called for backup, and followed by driving. If he was soo afraid of Brown, stay in the car. The most obvious reason to get out is to get a better shot.




It is because in doing so once, he's proven his intent and is therefore willing to do so again.


Do you not know what the word "dispositive" means? It doesn't mean "irrelevant". It means "not enough to rule on." If we had video camera footage of Mike Brown walking or standing still with his hands up and Wilson shot him, then the shooting at the car wouldn't mean anything.



Except anecdotal evidence is usually flimsy and is the worst type of evidence there is. That's why you bring in the doctors and the scientists. Science gives you real answers; witnesses are usually full of shit.


Red herring. Scientists haven't given "answers" in this case. The way Brown was shot he could have had his hands up (some claim that the bullet holes show he must have had his hands up but I'm not convinced) or maybe they were down. But guess what? Prosecutors routinely get indictments and convictions based on nothing but the testimony of a single witness. In this case you had multiple witnesses including two white construction workers not from the area who's immediate impressions were caught on camera. What reason would they have at that moment to say "He had his hands up?" I was kicked off a jury where the only evidence was an ex girlfriend who had gone back to the defendant after the alleged incident. The prosecutor had no medical evidence, no physical evidence, no weapon (he claimed a pen is a "deadly weapon"), nothing. The defendant got 40 years for "especially aggravated kidnapping and robbery" which requires either serious bodily harm or use of a deadly weapon. Go watch jury selection at your local courthouse for criminal trial. Count the number of cases where prosecutors say "I hope you know that real life is nothing like CSI. We typically don't have scientific evidence to prove the case and you have to rely on witness testimony." I heard one prosecutor say "In most cases of child molestation there is no physical evidence. So are you willing to convict on just the testimony of the victim, or should child molestation be legal?"

And before you give me some crap about "Well prosecutors shouldn't do that either" realize that equal protection under the law means that prosecutors cannot have one standard for the general public and another for their buddies in the police department. Had the prosecutors done their job Wilson would have been indicted. Had he ultimately been acquitted I would't have had a problem with that.




Oh, sorry, I have a life.


Fine. But please try to know what you are talking about. I wouldn't comment on "MMA-takedowns" if I didn't know anything about MMA-takedowns.




Again, I don't enjoy watching two mostly naked men wrestle each other for millions of dollars.


Fine. But please try to know what you are talking about. I wouldn't comment on "MMA-takedowns" if I didn't know anything about MMA-takedowns.



And lo and behold, I said exactly that if you would have read my response like five posts later.

Now why could that be?

Because in the grand jury process the defendant has no right to have exculpatory evidence presented. Because the prosecutor in the Wilson case introduced bad law that had been ruled unconstitutional into the proceedings. Because the officer in the Garner case did action on camera that fits New York's criminally negligent homicide statute. Because neither Wilson nor any of the witnesses who's testimony corroborated his story would have stood up to a vigorous cross examination. Because one of the witnesses that was heavily relied on to set him free brought evidence to the grand jury that showed she was a racist and had means, motive and opportunity to perjure herself.

Really, what's the point of having a constitution if prosecutors can invoke unconstitutional laws in order to help their police buddies out in grand jury proceedings? Is the constitution a "GD piece of paper?"

[squarepusher]

Darren Wilson's testimony is largely irrelevant if there is physical evidence that refutes it. And it's there in bundles. Multiple pathologists, autopsy results, and DNA analysis. The presence of Brown's DNA on the firearm is indicative of point-blank discharge of the pistol, as is the residue under Brown's fingernail. Now, while the fatal shot wasn't fired while Brown was on top of Wilson, that Brown did so once means there was reasonable suspicion he would do it again. If he was charging at Wilson, which is what the autopsy suggests, I fail to see how any of us would have acted under a different scenario.



Do you honestly think Wilson is a good enough shot to hit a target, even an obese target, 150 feet away with a handgun? Cops are notoriously bad shots. There's no reason for Wilson to even attempt this kind of shot: he probably wouldn't make it, high probability of collateral, and, worst of all, there's no motive.



It is because in doing so once, he's proven his intent and is therefore willing to do so again.



Except anecdotal evidence is usually flimsy and is the worst type of evidence there is. That's why you bring in the doctors and the scientists. Science gives you real answers; witnesses are usually full of shit.




Oh, sorry, I have a life.



Again, I don't enjoy watching two mostly naked men wrestle each other for millions of dollars.



And lo and behold, I said exactly that if you would have read my response like five posts later.



Now why could that be?


science gave me everything I needed to know about that case. Brown was fleeing trying to get away, Darren opened chase and executed him from a far distance knowing he was unarmed. This does not show "feared for his life" at all or "self defense"

[invisible]

Doesn't this mean that it should be really easy to provide proof for your claim?

Do you know of any?

The proof of my claim is that this is what these guys did for a living. If you would like to refute my claim, then how about YOU prove to me that it ISN'T true?

[invisible]

I don't think two cops who had zero to do with Saint Brown or Saint Garner deserved to die. Sorry you feel they did. Ass.

I never said that anyone deserved to die. You are the one who repeatedly claims that "thugs" deserve to be killed. You didn't answer the question. I didn't ask who had anything to do with what. I asked you why you feel that some people who engage in "thuggish" behavior deserve to be killed, and others do not. Please try again.

[PRB]

This week in America's upcoming police war:

Michael Brown, Eric Garner, didn't start a race/police war?

Let's try a distraction! Sony leak! Yay! Now we get a big war started...oh shit, NK denied involvement, that didn't work, let's get back to fueling a police war.

False flag in ground zero NYC. TPTB desperate to ignite the police/race war on America.

The revolution will not be televized, but will totally be tweeted.

[erowe1]

The proof of my claim is that this is what these guys did for a living. If you would like to refute my claim, then how about YOU prove to me that it ISN'T true?

They are guilty of a crime until I prove they're innocent?

[PRB]

They are guilty of a crime until I prove they're innocent?

because they're the gubmint, yes.

[invisible]

They are guilty of a crime until I prove they're innocent?

They make their living by stealing from people, and kidnapping people at gunpoint. If you feel that this is somehow not true, I'm asking you to prove to me that they make their living without personally engaging in this behavior.

[Christian Liberty]

They are guilty of a crime until I prove they're innocent?

Come on erowe1, please use your brain;) Cops all at the very least steal from others via government force. Don't pretend like you don't know that.

[XNavyNuke]

Police are civilians.

Only occupying armies call the citizens "civilians".

Bingo. Article 50 of the Geneva Conventions clearly defines when law enforcement officers are to be considered lawful combatants. All other times they are civilians. Military gear and camo may mimic the trappings of the military, but does not change that status no matter how much they believe it does.

XNN

[phill4paul]

I don't think two cops who had zero to do with Saint Brown or Saint Garner deserved to die. Sorry you feel they did. Ass.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4DhCIvCIAAcIg1.jpg:small

I'm sure Aiyana Brisbon could sympathize.

[squarepusher]

When good cops allow bad cops to get away untouched, good cops sometimes pay for bad cops actions.

I am against violence for anyone, including police officers or thugs, but can kind of understand why this happened.

[GunnyFreedom]

I am not sure what this has to do with anything. The whole question that led to "render unto caesar", whatever else you might say about that text, is about "paying taxes" not collecting them. I think this issue is Biblically clear.

Sure it is. Neither did Jesus condemn tax collectors, but He was Himself condemned for hanging out with them. The tax collectors were the people who put you in jail if you didn't pay your taxes. Not paying the Roman tax was a direct route to jail. The question was about rebelling against the state, and the answer was basically "not now." Which is also inclusive of your current understanding, but fundamentally deeper, and more broadly affecting.

You were pointing to the unjust nature of the cause and arrest itself. Wanting to cite the officers for kidnapping, and therefore 'murder' on account of a death caused during the commission of a felony. I explained that the morality of the underlying warrant was impossible to justify...


In order to justify the underlying warrant, one would have to justify the practice of arresting people for failing to pay a tax.

But that the same paradigm was already accepted reality in Jesus day, and it continues to be accepted reality today. He never commented on the rightness of paying taxes, just pay your taxes really so you don't land in jail dummy. Neither is the 'rightness' of the arrest warrant for Eric Garner relevant to the officer's intent except actually to assuage police guilt and place responsibility back on the head of the judge that issued it.

At the end of the day, right or wrong for better or worse, cops are basically the dumb gears in a smart machine. Going after the teeth as "wrong" will go nowhere since the teeth are performing their duty perfectly, criticism will seem extreme and bordering on lunacy. Going after the system that spins those gears will have more effect.

That's not to say don't expose and humiliate psychopath cops, but the problem is clearly systemic, which means the origin of the plague is in the system and not the individuals who fill it. Hacking at the branches is less effective when the cancer is in the root. There is no question that the system as it is now composed attracts certain personalities that contribute back to the plague in a vicious cycle, and chicken or the egg is a valid question, this being a parasitic relationship from the Pinkerton start, but at the end of the day these people are precisely fulfilling the role that the system is giving them, and so it it more the underlying system that is 'at fault' than the individual who is just a cog in it's wheel.

That does not absolve one of atrocity, of course, I think more the discernment of it helps in targeting the actual source of the cancer. The thugs at the branches and the really poison fruit is individually less relevant when the whole damn tree is poison at the root.








That said, we don't disagre on the reality of the situation. We are indeed in "Herod's Court" so to speak. You were talking about what the law is, I was talking about what it should be.

[Mani]

I'm not happy 2 cops are dead like this. All this does is play right into the paranoid cops hands that their use of force is necessary and reasonable. All this does is justify the fact that if someone twitches funny when walking by a cop, the cop has the right to blow them away. They can simply point to, "See those 2 dead NYPD cops" we had no choice but "feared for our safety." We need to "make it home safe to our family." All that stupid rhetoric becomes reality in their minds when some idiot decides to blow away 2 cops for no reason.

I think this is just going to make things worse.



I thought the police brutality movement was making progress, and all the cops whining and complaining was making them look bad, and further helping the movement. Then some fucking moron blows away 2 cops and now the "politically correct" thing to do is to shut up and not say bad stuff about cops because they REALLY are getting killed on the street.

By killing 2 cops, that piece of shit just took a couple bullets into the police brutality movement.

Don't justify their existence asshole. Fucking idiot.

[Christian Liberty]

Sure it is. Neither did Jesus condemn tax collectors, but He was Himself condemned for hanging out with them. The tax collectors were the people who put you in jail if you didn't pay your taxes. Not paying the Roman tax was a direct route to jail. The question was about rebelling against the state, and the answer was basically "not now." Which is also inclusive of your current understanding, but fundamentally deeper, and more broadly affecting.

You were pointing to the unjust nature of the cause and arrest itself. Wanting to cite the officers for kidnapping, and therefore 'murder' on account of a death caused during the commission of a felony. I explained that the morality of the underlying warrant was impossible to justify...

The Pharisees viewed tax collectors much like we (most of us) view cops on RPF. Jesus and the Pharisees agreed that tax collectors were sinners. That wasn't a point of contention. The point of contention was how they were supposed to treat sinners. That's the bottom line.

So, if you were to be hanging out with non-Christian* cops and I were to criticize you for it, you would be right to cite Jesus as your example. I'm not really sure what that has to do with this particular situation though. I'm talking about justice. Which is a completely different question than what we individually are supposed to do when stuck in unjust systems.

*I specify "non-Christian" so as to avoid any possibility of a controversy over 1 Corinthians 5, a passage of which I am uncertain how to apply to this situation (that was awkwardly worded, but I'm not sure how to reword it. I think you know what I'm getting at.

[devil21]

http://nypost.com/2014/12/20/2-nypd-cops-shot-execution-style-in-brooklyn/


Officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos were working overtime as part of an anti-terrorism drill in Bedford-Stuyvesant just before 3 p.m. when they were shot point-blank in the head by lone gunman Ismaaiyl Brinsley, 28, who had addresses in Georgia, Maryland and Brooklyn.

Always a drill....

Hmm, I wonder if his MD address was anywhere near Ft. Meade.

[invisible]

I'm not happy 2 cops are dead like this. All this does is play right into the paranoid cops hands that their use of force is necessary and reasonable. All this does is justify the fact that if someone twitches funny when walking by a cop, the cop has the right to blow them away. They can simply point to, "See those 2 dead NYPD cops" we had no choice but "feared for our safety." We need to "make it home safe to our family." All that stupid rhetoric becomes reality in their minds when some idiot decides to blow away 2 cops for no reason.

I think this is just going to make things worse.



I thought the police brutality movement was making progress, and all the cops whining and complaining was making them look bad, and further helping the movement. Then some fucking moron blows away 2 cops and now the "politically correct" thing to do is to shut up and not say bad stuff about cops because they REALLY are getting killed on the street.

By killing 2 cops, that piece of shit just took a couple bullets into the police brutality movement.

Don't justify their existence asshole. Fucking idiot.

I'm not happy that people are dying either, no matter who they are. I'm even less happy to see some people say that some "thugs" deserved to be killed, and other "thugs" do not, based on the color of their skin or what sort of clothes they wore. What is the difference whether a "thug" wears baggy pants, or blue with a tin trinket? Why should either "thug" deserve to die for their crimes, rather than answer for them in a court of law? Why should the killing of one "thug" be cheered, and the other condemned? So far, none of those posters cheering the killing of some "thugs" and condemning the killing of other "thugs" have been willing to actually explain this.

As others have pointed out, it does certainly seem possible that these recent cop killings are a false flag. If that is true, the second part of your post is exactly the line of thinking that such a false flag is designed to push people into. My own take on this is that if it is not a false flag, that it is the start of a slow-motion low-intensity civil war. Perhaps people have simply been pushed far enough, especially after seeing these killer cops walk, time and again. Cue up the quote from the Russian again.

[TheCount]

The proof of my claim is that this is what these guys did for a living. If you would like to refute my claim, then how about YOU prove to me that it ISN'T true?

I found proof of their innocence, and put it in a teapot which is orbiting the moon.

[James Madison]

Mike Brown was not killed when he was shot at point blank range. And the whole "reasonable suspicion" argument is bollocks. Either he was walking with his hands up as multiple credible witnesses said or he charging as the two DISCREDITED witnesses for Darren Wilson said! Based on the probable cause standard that usually holds his should have been indicted. The prosecutor threw the indictment. Had this been a real prosecution no exculpatory evidence would have been presented. Worse the prosecution introduced a law to the grand jury that had already been overturned as unconstitutional.

Jesus. Cocksucking. Christ.

There is no physical evidence that Brown had his hands up when he was shot, which has been stated by multiple forensic pathologists. You know, doctors? People who get paid to do this. The case was that flimsy.



Really I don't know why you can't just admit you were wrong in your early claim that Mike Brown was on top of Wilson when he was killed. He wasn't.

Looking through my posts...never once did I say that. I said, "anytime someone is on top of you, lethal force is acceptable". Brown was shot while in very close proximity to Wilson, which escalated the confrontation.



Have you never heard of something called luck? And as for "collateral damage" the street most likely cleared out once the shooting started back at the car. Also, I said 30 to 150 feet away! Wilson claimed 30 feet. The mark off from the car to Brown was 150 feet. Now maybe Wilson was following on foot. But why the hell do that? He could have stayed in his car, called for backup, and followed by driving. If he was soo afraid of Brown, stay in the car. The most obvious reason to get out is to get a better shot.

I don't care what is reasoning was, and it doesn't matter.
Who made the decision to charge at Wilson? Brown.
Who made the decision to bullrush at a guy pointing a gun at you? Brown.

Get this guy a fuckin Darwin Award. You earned it, Mike.


Do you not know what the word "dispositive" means? It doesn't mean "irrelevant". It means "not enough to rule on." If we had video camera footage of Mike Brown walking or standing still with his hands up and Wilson shot him, then the shooting at the car wouldn't mean anything.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. I don't think you do either.


Red herring. Scientists haven't given "answers" in this case. The way Brown was shot he could have had his hands up (some claim that the bullet holes show he must have had his hands up but I'm not convinced) or maybe they were down.

Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” She added, “If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he’s going for the officer’s gun.”

Melinek also said the autopsy did not support witnesses who have claimed Brown was shot while running away from Wilson, or with his hands up.

She said Brown was facing Wilson when Brown took a shot to the forehead, two shots to the chest and a shot to the upper right arm. The wound to the top of Brown’s head would indicate he was falling forward or in a lunging position toward the shooter; the shot was instantly fatal.

A sixth shot that hit the forearm traveled from the back of the arm to the inner arm, which means Brown’s palms could not have been facing Wilson, as some witnesses have said, Melinek said. That trajectory shows Brown probably was not taking a standard surrender position with arms above the shoulders and palms out when he was hit, she said.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/official-autopsy-shows-michael-brown-had-close-range-wound-to/article_e98a4ce0-c284-57c9-9882-3fb7df75fef6.html

And there it is, folks. What medical school did you graduate from, drake?

Fuckin shit...


But guess what? Prosecutors routinely get indictments and convictions based on nothing but the testimony of a single witness.

Which is why, if I had to choose one, I'd save Obama before I saved a prosecutor.


In this case you had multiple witnesses including two white construction workers not from the area who's immediate impressions were caught on camera. What reason would they have at that moment to say "He had his hands up?"

Once again, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. These witnesses are the same retards that vote. Yeah, they're real fuckin smart.


I was kicked off a jury where the only evidence was an ex girlfriend who had gone back to the defendant after the alleged incident. The prosecutor had no medical evidence, no physical evidence, no weapon (he claimed a pen is a "deadly weapon"), nothing. The defendant got 40 years for "especially aggravated kidnapping and robbery" which requires either serious bodily harm or use of a deadly weapon. Go watch jury selection at your local courthouse for criminal trial. Count the number of cases where prosecutors say "I hope you know that real life is nothing like CSI. We typically don't have scientific evidence to prove the case and you have to rely on witness testimony." I heard one prosecutor say "In most cases of child molestation there is no physical evidence. So are you willing to convict on just the testimony of the victim, or should child molestation be legal?"

Which is why my first act as president would be to have all the prosecutors packed into a rocketship and then flown into the sun.


And before you give me some crap about "Well prosecutors shouldn't do that either" realize that equal protection under the law means that prosecutors cannot have one standard for the general public and another for their buddies in the police department. Had the prosecutors done their job Wilson would have been indicted. Had he ultimately been acquitted I would't have had a problem with that.

So, you're mad the government saved tax payers money by not indicting Wilson?



Fine. But please try to know what you are talking about. I wouldn't comment on "MMA-takedowns" if I didn't know anything about MMA-takedowns.

You gonna make me?
Seriously, check yourself because you don't have any room to be throwing stones, especially on the religion forum. But we aren't on the religion forum so I won't say anymore than that.
You said that move is used in the UFC all the time in post 187.


Because in the grand jury process the defendant has no right to have exculpatory evidence presented. Because the prosecutor in the Wilson case introduced bad law that had been ruled unconstitutional into the proceedings. Because the officer in the Garner case did action on camera that fits New York's criminally negligent homicide statute. Because neither Wilson nor any of the witnesses who's testimony corroborated his story would have stood up to a vigorous cross examination. Because one of the witnesses that was heavily relied on to set him free brought evidence to the grand jury that showed she was a racist and had means, motive and opportunity to perjure herself.

Post 158, two posts after my original post on the subject:

The Garner cop should have been punished...probably involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter. But that's a big difference from the first degree murder charges that this guy would have faced if he hadn't offed himself. That's the difference between 15 years and getting the chair. Revenge killing is arguably justified in the latter, but clearly is immoral with the former.

The OP was replying to a question asking why it was okay to kill 'thugs' like Mike Brown but not 'thugs' like these cops.

There's me saying the officer should have been punished. But keep lying about me.

Cunt.

[Origanalist]

Video Taken by NYPD Killer Surfaces, Shows Him Being Shaken Down by K-9 Unit Last Year
Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/video-nypd-killer-surfaces-shows-shaken-k-9-unit-year/#kVmSmLzmGF5PQXUF.99

[squarepusher]

so James Madison, let me get what you are saying .

Brown was in a confrontation with Darren in the car, struggle occurs, gun goes off and Brown is hit.
Brown runs away from the vehicle, Darren gets out in pursuit (is Darren fearing for his life here?)
Brown has run away, somehow sees that Darren has got out of his car, and turns around and "bum rushes" the officer who just shot him thinking that he is going to tackle and kill him? That is really what you think happened?

[James Madison]

I don't know exactly what happened. And more importantly, I don't really care what happened. None of this has any effect on my life and before any mouth-breathers on here wanna say it does -- shut the fuck up. I'm not that important and neither are you. Since the beginning of time, shit like this has happened every single fuckin day.The only difference is now you have 24hr media to tell you about it and enough breaks in your day to give a shit.

Brown's dead. Wilson has to live with it.
They'll be judged by god, if that's your thing.
And if it isn't, take solace in knowing Wilson will probably die a far more painful death from either heart disease or cancer.

Bleak message for the kids, but it's the truth.

[UWDude]

I don't know exactly what happened. And more importantly, I don't really care what happened. None of this has any effect on my life and before any mouth-breathers on here wanna say it does -- shut the fuck up. I'm not that important and neither are you. Since the beginning of time, shit like this has happened every single fuckin day.The only difference is now you have 24hr media to tell you about it and enough breaks in your day to give a shit.

Brown's dead. Wilson has to live with it.
They'll be judged by god, if that's your thing.
And if it isn't, take solace in knowing Wilson will probably die a far more painful death from either heart disease or cancer.

Bleak message for the kids, but it's the truth.

He'll burn his liver out and die alone, getting one last prostitute in. That's how cops live, drunk and fucking whores.

[James Madison]

He'll burn his liver out and die alone, getting one last prostitute in. That's how cops live, drunk and fucking whores.

Liver cirrosis and gonorrhea...

...I'd take a bullet to the head.

[A Son of Liberty]

You know, I recently read a book about a Nazi soldier who was drafted and made it a point never to kill anyone, not even another soldier. To avoid ever killing anyone, he threw away his gun and replaced it with a piece of wood cut out and painted to look like a gun. He was a Christian. (Seventh-Day Adventist). If he had resisted the draft his family might have been killed. They ended up having to run for their lives anyway. Once he found out the SS were killing Jews, he would go ahead of his company to villages and warn the Jews to leave. Some heeded his warning and lived. Some did not and died. Eventually the war ended and he was able to reunite with his family. While I could imagine some civilian in occupied territory killing him, that would have been sad. I understand anger at the police in general. I realize that we live in a country with a lot of corrupt politicians passing all sorts of ridiculous laws like "You can't sell cigarettes without a license" and that for the most part police go along with enforcing these stupid laws. But I still find the deaths of these officers sad. They didn't pass the laws and they have grown up not fully understanding the nature of the system they are working for. I believe the to be victims in more ways than one.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jmdrake again.

[Weston White]

The major difference between these deaths and recent police killings is intent.

I don't have a problem with the Mike Brown shooting because anytime someone is on top of you, deadly force is acceptable. (see Trayvon Martin)
The Garner decision was crap, but the officer wasn't trying to kill him. There's no need for MMA-style takedowns, but try that move against any of us and nobody dies.

Completely different than someone deliberately setting out to kill someone.

Which speak mounds of regarding your recent posts:


http://emojipedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/160x160x91-pile-of-poo.png.pagespeed.ic.N6iNfrs6Op.jpg

At least with Zimmerman (HMA 28-years old, 5'8" at 200lbs and having enough sense to call for help) there was evidence of him having been physically defeated by Martin (BMJ 17-years old, 5'11" at 158lbs). ...Now, how many times did Mr. Zimmerman fire, was it 10 or 12 times? Oh yes that is right, once, he fired only 1-time--with zero evidence of Martin attempting to flee from Zimmerman, which is completely opposite than the incident involving Brown and Wilson.

[jmdrake]

Which speak mounds of regarding your recent posts:


http://emojipedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/160x160x91-pile-of-poo.png.pagespeed.ic.N6iNfrs6Op.jpg

At least with Zimmerman (HMA 28-years old, 5'8" at 200lbs and having enough sense to call for help) there was evidence of him having been physically defeated by Martin (BMJ 17-years old, 5'11" at 158lbs). ...Now, how many times did Mr. Zimmerman fire, was it 10 or 12 times? Oh yes that is right, once, he fired only 1-time--with zero evidence of Martin attempting to flee from Zimmerman, which is completely opposite than the incident involving Brown and Wilson.

Thank you for getting to the heart of the matter. In James Madison's first post in this sub thread he made the provably false assertion the Mike Brown killing had something to do with Mike Brown "being on top" of Darren Wilson when that just wasn't the case. In the Trayvon Martin case, had the prosecution been able to show that Trayvon got up from Zimmerman and was leaving and Zimmerman followed him and then shot him Zimmerman's self defense argument would have fallen apart.l

[jmdrake]

Jesus. Cocksucking. Christ.

There is no physical evidence that Brown had his hands up when he was shot, which has been stated by multiple forensic pathologists. You know, doctors? People who get paid to do this. The case was that flimsy.


SMH At first you said Brown was on top of Wilson when Wilson shot him and you referenced the Trayvon Martin shooting. So you are the clueless one here.



Looking through my posts...never once did I say that. I said, "anytime someone is on top of you, lethal force is acceptable". Brown was shot while in very close proximity to Wilson, which escalated the confrontation.

:rolleyes: Direct quote from you!


I don't have a problem with the Mike Brown shooting because anytime someone is on top of you, deadly force is acceptable. (see Trayvon Martin)

I copied and pasted that. Come on man. Don't run from your own words. And if the facts had matched your assertion on deadly force that wouldn't have been a problem. But the facts in this situation are different. It seems you drawn conclusions about both killings without really knowing the facts. That's fine. Many people did that on both sides. But when you take the time and look at the facts the picture becomes clearer that there should have been and indictment.




I don't care what is reasoning was, and it doesn't matter.
Who made the decision to charge at Wilson? Brown.
Who made the decision to bullrush at a guy pointing a gun at you? Brown.


Except you have no solid evidence that Brown was charging Wilson. All you have is the testimony of Wilson and the testimony of two now discredited (one openly racist and likely not even at the scene) witnesses.


Get this guy a fuckin Darwin Award. You earned it, Mike.

Yeah. Smarting off to a cop isn't a good idea. It's not illegal, but it's not a good idea. Mike Brown and his friend should have just run from the cop as soon as they saw him and kept running.




I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. I don't think you do either.


:rolleyes:

dis·pos·i·tive adjective \di-ˈspä-zə-tiv\

Definition of DISPOSITIVE

: directed toward or effecting disposition (as of a case) <dispositive evidence>

It's a legal term. It means the entire case can be settled on this one fact. For example, in the Duke Lacrosse case the fact that rape kit showed no DNA from the alleged rapists but did show DNA from other men was dispositive of the case. There's really nothing else the prosecution could have asserted to possibly prove they raped her. Had she instead claimed that they forced her to have oral sex and she immediately washed her mouth out then the rape kit would not have been dispositive. In this case, the fact that Mike Brown was shot once at close quarters is not dispositive of the case. He was not on top of officer Wilson the way Trayvon Martin (your example) might have been on top of George Zimmerman when he was killed.



Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist in San Francisco, said the autopsy “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” She added, “If he has his hand near the gun when it goes off, he’s going for the officer’s gun.”

Melinek also said the autopsy did not support witnesses who have claimed Brown was shot while running away from Wilson, or with his hands up.

She said Brown was facing Wilson when Brown took a shot to the forehead, two shots to the chest and a shot to the upper right arm. The wound to the top of Brown’s head would indicate he was falling forward or in a lunging position toward the shooter; the shot was instantly fatal.

A sixth shot that hit the forearm traveled from the back of the arm to the inner arm, which means Brown’s palms could not have been facing Wilson, as some witnesses have said, Melinek said. That trajectory shows Brown probably was not taking a standard surrender position with arms above the shoulders and palms out when he was hit, she said.

A "proper surrender position"? What the hell is that even supposed to mean? Your arms have to be above your shoulders? So if your hands are like this the police are free to shoot?

http://eecue.com/i/Hands-Up--eecue_26745_bbjg_l.jpg

Further, do you know the difference between saying the report doesn't support the witness account and the report categorically refutes it? No. I guess you don't. If Brown had his hands up, got shot in the gut, lower his hands to hold his own wound (natural reaction), then got shot again, that fits the witness account of him having his hands up. We aren't talking about an unmoving unfeeling statue after all.




And there it is, folks. What medical school did you graduate from, drake?


What law school did you go to since you think you know the definition of "dispositive?" And what medical school teaches people what the "proper surrender position" is?



Fuckin shit...


That's what I think about your "proper surrender position." Also you have discounted the possibility that Brown was at one point in the "proper surrender position" but that none of the bullets him his arm in that position. The final shot went though the top of the head. Was that because he was charging or because he was falling? Your forensic report can't tell you that.



Once again, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. These witnesses are the same retards that vote. Yeah, they're real fuckin smart.


And relying on a medical expert to learn about a "proper surrender position" is? And regardless, the evidence that you are relying on does not disprove that Brown was never in the "proper surrender position." Even if we accept your experts opinion on what a "proper surrender position" is, Brown could have had his hands up, got shot someone else, dropped his hands to hold his wounds, and got shot in the arm. That's were "medical" expertise breaks down and legal analysis has to take over.



You gonna make me?


No. Feel free to make yourself look as ignorant as you want. Proper surrender position. :rolleyes:



Seriously, check yourself because you don't have any room to be throwing stones, especially on the religion forum. But we aren't on the religion forum so I won't say anymore than that.


If you want to argue with anything I've said on the religion forum, just do it dude. But in this thread you've made yourself look like an ass. Mike Brown on top when killed like Trayvon Martin? MMA-Style takedown of Eric Garner? You should have stopped there. Now you going to talk about "proper surrender positions." I guess I need to teach my kids that if they are trying to surrender to the police make sure they have their hands immediately go ALL the way up because if they are halfway up it and they are shot it won't be deemed a "proper surrender position". Oh, and if they get shot as their hands are going up it still doesn't matter. Tell me this, how do you get the the "proper surrender position" without first going through an "improper surrender position"?



You said that move is used in the UFC all the time in post 187.


It is used in the UFC all the time. It's a well know choke hold. UFC choke holds are not legal for the New York police department to use! You can use an MMA choke hold in the UFC because there is a ref there to stop the fight as soon as one fighter says "I can't breathe." Why is this so hard for you to understand?




Post 158, two posts after my original post on the subject:

The Garner cop should have been punished...probably involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter. But that's a big difference from the first degree murder charges that this guy would have faced if he hadn't offed himself. That's the difference between 15 years and getting the chair. Revenge killing is arguably justified in the latter, but clearly is immoral with the former.

The OP was replying to a question asking why it was okay to kill 'thugs' like Mike Brown but not 'thugs' like these cops.


Great. Wonderful. The problem is that the cops weren't punished at all. We don't have the grand jury proceedings like we do from the Mike Brown case (and at this point I doubt they'll be released) but something dispositive of this case (I hope you understand that word now) is if the hold was a chokehold or not. If it wasn't then there's no grounds for a manslaughter charge. If it was the there's grounds not only for a charge but for a conviction. Now if we're talking about the thug that killed the cops, did you hear about the case where a father killed a drunk driver who had just killed his son? The drunk driver should have ultimately been convicted of manslaughter. And while I don't approve of what the father did, I do understand. Imagine the father's rage if hadn't killed the drunk, and despite all of the evidence that the drunk killed his son, the drunk was not even indicted and the perception was because the drunk was somehow connected to the prosecutor. That's what's going on here. Cops and prosecutors are joined at the hip. And the perception is that these cops are not getting indicted because of their special relationship to prosecutors. And that perception is justifiable.



There's me saying the officer should have been punished. But keep lying about me.


I haven't "lied about you." You were pushing the very same argument that was pushed by those saying the cop in the Garner case shouldn't have been punished. And if your argument was right (it wasn't) then the cop shouldn't have been punished. If the cop had done everything by the book and Garner had "just died" there would have been no reason for an indictment. But that wasn't the case. YOU ARE THE ONE LYING HERE! Go back to my original response to your nonsense. I didn't say you said they shouldn't have been indicted. I said you didn't know the facts of the cases, and you don't. I added my own assertion that in both cases both cops should have been indicted. You asked me why. I told you why. Rather than asking me you could have said "Well I do think the cop in the Garner case should have been indicted."



Cunt.

Whatever dude. You're just mad because you were provably wrong and you are too immature to deal with it.

[Occam's Banana]

I'm not happy 2 cops are dead like this. All this does is play right into the paranoid cops hands that their use of force is necessary and reasonable. All this does is justify the fact that if someone twitches funny when walking by a cop, the cop has the right to blow them away. They can simply point to, "See those 2 dead NYPD cops" we had no choice but "feared for our safety." We need to "make it home safe to our family." All that stupid rhetoric becomes reality in their minds when some idiot decides to blow away 2 cops for no reason.

I think this is just going to make things worse.

I thought the police brutality movement was making progress, and all the cops whining and complaining was making them look bad, and further helping the movement. Then some fucking moron blows away 2 cops and now the "politically correct" thing to do is to shut up and not say bad stuff about cops because they REALLY are getting killed on the street.

By killing 2 cops, that piece of shit just took a couple bullets into the police brutality movement.

Don't justify their existence asshole. Fucking idiot.

This is why violence is often counter-productive, even if and when it is "righteous" ,,,

[tod evans]

Whether logical or not there's a couple of dead tax-ticks....

The remaining ticks are going to burrow in deeper which will no doubt have the expected result....

Get out of the cities!

[Weston White]

In the Trayvon Martin case, had the prosecution been able to show that Trayvon got up from Zimmerman and was leaving and Zimmerman followed him and then shot him Zimmerman's self defense argument would have fallen apart.

Exactly, and in the more recent (i.e., instant) case, grouped shell casings cover an approximate area of 150' x 20'. A big, BIG, major, HUGE difference.

[erowe1]

They make their living by stealing from people, and kidnapping people at gunpoint. If you feel that this is somehow not true, I'm asking you to prove to me that they make their living without personally engaging in this behavior.

It doesn't work that way. Prove these individuals are guilty of specific crimes committed at specific times and places against specific victims. Until that's done, it is unjust to punish them for it.

[KingNothing]

Guess I'm just not focused enough on "liberty" then because this sure seems like fighting back to me.

You're a fucking scumbag then, because there is no reason to believe these cops were anything more than unfortunate, random, victims of a raving lunatic who also killed himself and his girlfriend.

This shit is not the answer and condoning it by suggesting that this is "fighting back," is beyond moronic. This will probably lead to an even greater "us versus them," mentality between police and the rest of us, and could cause police to even have a stronger suspicion and fear of the mundanes they come across during the day. This violence could very easily perpetuate further violence at the hands of the police, which could, in turn, perpetuate more animus towards them. This is depressing news, and it is a giant step in the wrong direction -- particularly if people tacitly endorse/forgive/justify/explain-away the lunatic's actions.

[KingNothing]

This is probably true. I'm not yet sure if vigilante justice can be MORAL, but its almost certainly necessary.

You're completely insane and you should pause before speaking and posting, because when you convey a message like this you further discredit yourself.

[KingNothing]

The shooting was clearly a response to the deaths of Eric Garner and Mike Brown. Right now, it's real criminals that are killing cops, but in the future it might be petty criminals who are sick of being screwed by the system and treated like scum by the police.

We can only have true change when enough people are scared to be cops because of how much they're hated for their fascist ways. This can only happen when people recognize that there is no justice for people killed by the police and they start dealing out their own justice.

First, police having MORE fear of violence from the rest of us is NOT the answer. The answer is that police should KNOW that they will be held accountable for their illegal/immoral actions, via the judicial system. Second, you're making a big assumption when you ascribe a specific purpose to this lunatic shooting two cops. Remember, he also killed his girlfriend and himself. The more reasonable approach would be to say that a deranged person committed a violent act, and that he alone is responsible for doing so. At this point, there is not an actual war on cops, much as police propagandists would like us to think, and thank god for that. Let's not give any momentum to that belief.

[tod evans]

First, police having MORE fear of violence from the rest of us is NOT the answer. The answer is that police should KNOW that they will be held accountable for their illegal/immoral actions, via the judicial system.

Are you living in some alternate universe?

Ever seen "Just-Us" typed on this board?

[Weston White]

You're a fucking scumbag then, because there is no reason to believe these cops were anything more than unfortunate, random, victims of a raving lunatic who also killed himself and his girlfriend.

Actually she is still alive:


Detectives are waiting to speak with Shaneka Nicole Thompson, 29, who remains in critical but stable condition at a local hospital, after Brinsley shot her in the abdomen early Saturday and then traveled to Brooklyn, N.Y.

http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/830/article/p2p-82361412/

And for all we know he was working as an informant or playing a part within the anti-terrorism drill taking place that day in NY and which those two NYPD officers were involved in.

[KingNothing]

Straight from the playbook:

every attack on Hillary Clinton for not knowing her place is an attack on you.
(http://www.vox.com/2014/9/23/6832243/the-sexual-threats-against-emma-watson-are-an-attack-on-women)


the threats against [Emma] Watson are already an attack on all of us.
(http://www.vox.com/2014/9/23/6832243/the-sexual-threats-against-emma-watson-are-an-attack-on-women)


This is more than an attack on the low paid – it is an attack on all of us.
(http://workinglife.org.au/2014/05/05/together-we-can-defend-this-attack-on-our-way-of-life/)

Robin Williams...character attacks that, in turn, by extension, feel like an attack on all of us who struggle to stay sober and alive each day.
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-adam-ackley-phd/the-butterfly-effect-and-_b_5677292.html)

policies which are an attack on all of us – and on the very idea of a welfare state.
(http://dwpexamination.org/forum/general-discussion/gloating-tories-dont-care-that-people-are-dying-of-poverty-on-the-real-life-benefits-street/)


Etc, etc....https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYXnhaczxrpdEkkfzofZot3AAL3XYPo MVe_-5Diu7BLw2pwO9A

When groups attach cultural significance or society-wide causes for the events perpetrated by one or several raging lunatics, I cringe. A nutjob killing a cop is not an attack on the rest of us. A nutjob killing a cop is not even proof of anti-police sentiment, or a war on cops. ....also, the notion of people rightfully criticizing Hillary Clinton for her abhorrent record as representing some underlying evil among Americans makes me die a little inside.

[KingNothing]

Actually she is still alive:



http://touch.baltimoresun.com/#section/830/article/p2p-82361412/

And for all we know he was working as an informant or playing a part within the anti-terrorism drill taking place that day in NY and which those two NYPD officers were involved in.

Good to see that she's alive. Also, what? For all we know, no, that is not likely. Again... what?

[KingNothing]

Are you living in some alternate universe?

Ever seen "Just-Us" typed on this board?

LA just ordered millions of dollars worth of personal cameras that police will wear. That is a step in the right direction.

Incidentally, how long have you been using the internet? How long have you been reading comment sections on message boards? Remember what they were like in the late 1990s and early 2000s? It was overwhelmingly pro-police. That is just not the case anymore. A society-wide shift in thought appears to be taking place and that fact that it has changed so dramatically in only 10-15 years is astonishing. We need to encourage that shift. The way we do it is NOT be condoning violence, it's by embracing the moral high ground --- empathize with people when bad things happen to them, and embrace the notion that all people must be equal under the law and held accountable for their actions. At the very least, we've stopped moving in the wrong direction and people, en masse are acknowledging that police are indeed fallible. Now we've got to push it further and hold them legally accountable when their fallibility causes them to err while on duty.

[KingNothing]

It is unusual that media is not reporting it as terrorism but mostly colored as race relations issue.

Race, it would seem, sells better than terror.

[jmdrake]

First, police having MORE fear of violence from the rest of us is NOT the answer. The answer is that police should KNOW that they will be held accountable for their illegal/immoral actions, via the judicial system. Second, you're making a big assumption when you ascribe a specific purpose to this lunatic shooting two cops. Remember, he also killed his girlfriend and himself. The more reasonable approach would be to say that a deranged person committed a violent act, and that he alone is responsible for doing so. At this point, there is not an actual war on cops, much as police propagandists would like us to think, and thank god for that. Let's not give any momentum to that belief.

You know what? I agree. The problem is I have no idea how to make that happen. Do you? Prior to the Rodney King beating I didn't understand why black people rioted everytime a black man got shot. Then the Rodney King video came out. I was certain we had the answer! Video tape the cops, end the "he said/she said" problem inherent in these investigations, we'll get justice when it's deserved, no problem.

And then the world was introduced to the "Rodney King" defense.

Step 1: Attack the victim for his actions prior to the police encounter. (Rodney King was high on PCP and speeding and so everything else that happened to him was justified).

Step 2: Attack the victim for his actions during the encounter: (Rodney King was "resisting". How he was resisting lying on the ground getting beat my multiple officers with batons is something I've never understood.)

In every case, step 1 and step 2 gets used over and over again whether there is justification or no justification. Obama says the police should all have body cameras. How would that have helped in the Eric Garner case? Even some people here are defending the police position of "It wasn't a chokehold."

Okay. We ca get an outside prosecutor. Who? Someone from the federal government? Okay. We've just increased the scope of the federal government. Maybe that's necessary.

People are frustrated. It seems like, in some people's minds, no matter what the police do it's somehow "justified". Crime is at a 20 year low, police killings are at a 11 year high, and yet if you listen to talk radio the police killings are all because of black criminality. Well if that were the case the shouldn't police killings go down as the crime goes down?

Note I'm not arguing against your position. I agree with it. I just don't see how to make it actually work.

[phill4paul]

LA just ordered millions of dollars worth of personal cameras that police will wear. That is a step in the right direction.

-snip-

Now we've got to push it further and hold them legally accountable when their fallibility causes them to err while on duty.

Does not compute....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-xHqf1BVE4

[KingNothing]

I think this is one of the things that annoys me the most about all of it, and others like it. Whenever there is a little kickback it is the fault of everyone except for the guy who actually did the violence, to inspire the kickback. There's one of the reasons that society is falling the hell apart, Americans involved in public policy are positively deranged, or they are attempting to manipulate the population into derangement themselves.

The only thing I disagree with about this post is the notion that "society is falling apart." There's little evidence to support this claim.

America is a HUGE nation. We have 330 MILLION people living within our borders. TWO cops were just killed by a lunatic. TWO! And over the last few weeks, we've had a half-dozen or so questionable killings of unarmed people at the hands of police. These just are not significant numbers, relative to the size of our nation, in spite of what the media, police unions, and race baiters would like us to think. Violence, by and large, is plummeting around America. We are becoming a safer, less savage, nation. We are, by nearly every metric, improving as a people. We're less violent, less racist, less sexist, and less homophobic. More people have homes, meals, and safety than ever before. More people have access to education, culture, and entertainment than ever before. We are not a society in collapse. We are a society addressing the sins of our past, and we are a society fighting the beast of Stupidity, Ignorance & Old that is in its death throws. We might face hardships and setbacks, but in sum, we are moving unabashedly in the right direction.

[jmdrake]

LA just ordered millions of dollars worth of personal cameras that police will wear. That is a step in the right direction.

But the Eric Garner choking was on video. I can see cameras helping on the Mike Brown case. It would answer the question of "hands up." But the Garner case? Also for those of us worried about the surveillance state, is this a good thing that police will be walking surveillance cameras everywhere they go? Some of these police might be undercover? Personally I'm for gun cameras and dash cameras. If a cop is shooting at someone I want a total record from the moment is gun is pulled until it is put back away. But again I'm sadly no longer convinced video will solve the problem. It did solve the problem in the Oscar Grant killing in that even right wing media had nothing to argue except whether or not it was intentional.



Incidentally, how long have you been using the internet? How long have you been reading comment sections on message boards? Remember what they were like in the late 1990s and early 2000s? It was overwhelmingly pro-police. That is just not the case anymore. A society-wide shift in thought appears to be taking place and that fact that it has changed so dramatically in only 10-15 years is astonishing. We need to encourage that shift. The way we do it is NOT be condoning violence, it's by embracing the moral high ground --- empathize with people when bad things happen to them, and embrace the notion that all people must be equal under the law and held accountable for their actions. At the very least, we've stopped moving in the wrong direction and people, en masse are acknowledging that police are indeed fallible. Now we've got to push it further and hold them legally accountable when their fallibility causes them to err while on duty.

Well I was on the internet back in the 1990s. I saw the same thing then that I see now. Some message boards were overwhelmingly pro police, some were overwhelmingly anti police. Some were anti police as long as the police were messing with white people. (I was on more than one "militia/martial arts" type forum.) I can't say I've seen any real shift. I am glad to see such a large libertarian presence that neither takes the "It's all about racism" approach nor the "Cops are never wrong" approach. Most of the people I hear calling into talk radio are just stupid on this and many other subjects.