White liberal tries to lecture me on how often "my race" is victimized by police

[jmdrake]

What a joke! I was responding to Jon Stewarts idiotic rant against Rand Paul for daring to attribute Eric Garner's death to anything other than just race. Rand rightly pointed out that giving the cops the power to arrest someone for something as trivial as selling "illegal" cigarettes is part of the problem. Anyway, at one point one white liberal tried to say this was nothing but a race issue.

Bob Galante · Top Commenter · History and French Teacher at Rumson-Fair Haven Regional High School

For me, the whole thing boils down to one idea: Cops are harder on black people. Everyone, even right-wingers like Hannity and Oreilly with an ounce of intellectual honesty still left somewhere in their psyches, knows this. Now the question, what strength do we muster to do something about it.

My response?

John Drake · Top Commenter · UAB - The University of Alabama at Birmingham
White people get brutalized by the police too. Or have you never heard of Kelly Thomas?

http://sfbayview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Vengeance-for-Kelly-Thomas-poster.jpg

And here's another story of an unjust police killing of a white man. His father was able to at least get something positive done in the aftermath. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038.html?ml=po#.VIGxKzHF_rg

To this I got a series of responses from irate white liberals.

Mike Jolin · Top Commenter · École secondaire Confédération
John Drake, stick to the subject at hand, police violence on black people.

Then I got this comment from a black woman.

Rena Iglehart · Owner at Rena O. Productions
Look people we know police brutality happens to all races. It bothers me that every time African Americans speak up about something that others say O this happens to us too so no need to complain about it. It is OBVIOUS that we are targeted a little more and when things happen to us justice is usually not in our favor. We are aware that injustice happens to everyone and it is disgusting but please here us ( as in African Americans ) out when we get a tad more pissed off about the blatant obstruction of justice in the recent national cases.

Sidenote:If this happened due to the selling of illegal cigarettes then NYPD needs to take a walk down Canal Street.

Hmm.....she at least seems to understand Rand's point.

And now the lecture from the white liberal.

Jane Spurrier Brock · Top Commenter
John Drake - sure, that happens occasionally, but it happens to people of YOUR race much more often...and also more often that brutal treatment of Black folks isn't reported to the DOJ....like it is supposed to be.

My reply?

John Drake · Top Commenter · UAB - The University of Alabama at Birmingham
Jane Spurrier Brock Jane, I'm well aware that it happens a lot to black people. It happened to Miriam Carey and democrats and republicans in congress cheered her death. She is the black woman that got mixed up during a police drill in Washington DC. The police chased her down, took her baby out of the car, then shot her in the back 6 times. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson didn't say anything. Obama didn't say anything. Explain that to me? We should not simply focus on certain cases of police brutality to the exclusion of other cases. The funny thing is I've heard more from right wing news outlets about Miriam Carey's death than I have heard from liberals. Please watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGHzE9ie-M8

So......why would some white person think I didn't know about police brutality happening more to black people? :confused:

[ClydeCoulter]

So......why would some white person think I didn't know about police brutality happening more to black people?

From what you posted in the OP, you didn't say anything either way concerning the extent (in the first post/response). I'm sure that they were just trying to "correct/steer" you into their agenda, whatever that is. If too many people thought the way you did, it might bring them together, regardless of race, and maybe there are some that don't want that.

[kcchiefs6465]

Generally speaking it isn't so much as the white versus black angle that people miss the roots of. Blacks are disproportionately arrested for drug charges more-so than whites, for instance (but they aren't aware of the origins of the drug laws).

A lot more of it has to do with where one lives. Certain unabashed police officers have stated as much. Within the metropolitans (and many smaller cities) there are neighborhoods that are more affected than other neighborhoods. It isn't because of the race of said neighborhood, it is because the police are taught and trained that they are fighting a war that should be (or could be) won at any cost. They view it as a 'them vs. us' mentality where anyone with a thousand dollars in their pocket (in that neighborhood) is a drug dealer (they do not consider many do not trust or like banks). They view it as anyone who drives through that neighborhood is looking to find a prostitute or drugs (they do not consider that many people actually live there). They make up reasons to pull people over on the off chance that their hunch is correct. It pisses many people off (imagine being stopped some fifty times before you hit age 18) so the people naturally despise the police. They often won't call them. Those that do better move. It's more than a "stop snitching" campaign, it's a "fuck the police, those unjust tyrannical assholes" campaign.

Anyways, I'm getting off the point that I kind of meant to make. The neighborhoods weren't as bad before certain laws (often based in racist roots) were enacted. They weren't as bad until the predictable consequences of drug prohibition came to roost. Now of course there were always bad neighborhoods... and of course, as much as this is largely less recorded history, the police were never benevolent protectors.

Truth be told this talk of socioeconomic factors affecting policing and crime in general is interesting. I find it much more interesting that someone like I, who, no hyperbole intended, would never call the police and would prefer that they'd leave my mangled barely alive body where they found it, if such an unlikely circumstance is ever the case, am still forced by some authoritarian collective to pay for all of the theft, robbery, kidnapping, battery, sexual assault, and murders that they commit.

[Anti Federalist]

It's not black and white.

It's blue vs. us.

[kcchiefs6465]

It's not black and white.

It's blue vs. us.
Indeed.

Being black in many areas 'warrants' suspicion for a stop (to cops who often possibly don't despise blacks as being less but simply act out prejudices) as much as having a clear cover over your license plate or window tint does. Or a license plate bulb. Or a fuse out causing your signal to flicker faster than normal. Or because a cigarette butt was thrown out of the window at some previous time. Or because they just make shit up.

Drove by a few cars the other day, they're all hut-hutted around talking to a lady. Get pulled. The 'B' could look like an '8'; they had to get extra close to see. No bullshit. What do you think the first thing they asked me was after they explained the supposed probable cause to initiate a traffic stop? "Do you have any drugs or guns in the vehicle?"

Shit's just a joke. I really cannot see how more people do not recognize that that which is, is.

[Pericles]

It's not black and white.

It's blue vs. us.

That ^

[fr33]

Yeah I can imagine that it's annoying having white progressives lecture you on race.

[Pericles]

Yeah I can imagine that it's annoying having white progressives lecture you on race.

Give new meaning to the term arrogant ass.

[idiom]

Perhaps we, ans Rand, should start talking about blue on black and blue on white violence?

[GunnyFreedom]

So......why would some white person think I didn't know about police brutality happening more to black people? :confused:

30 years of "it just has to be about race" BSM and Public School indoctrination is hard to shed.

[GunnyFreedom]

There is a reality that blacks are adversely affected by the Justice System at a highly disproportionate rate to "everybody else." This is one of those issues you are not allowed to mention to conservatives, because in their universe that allows only 3 possibilities: 1) that law enforcement and the courts are racist, 2) that black people just do more crime and therefore they should be racist, and 3) that the system itself is somehow broken, and all three are unthinkable, therefore people refuse to think about it.

What nobody wants to think about is that the system is broken because we have given it too much power. Nobody except us the choir, of course. People are accustomed to seeing a problem and giving the system a little more power and a little more power to deal with all of these problems. Now we face a systemic collapse from the other side, because it has too much power in absolute terms, and it has lost sight of the individuals for which it was created.

Justice is run amok and is only capable of judging itself as having done no wrong. It is no longer black or white. And make no mistake, it used to be, but it is not any longer. It is now completely us and them. The shot-callers and those who just get shot.

The abuse, I think has extended to everyone broadly enough by now, that to point out these things as stemming from a racial bias is short sighted, and ignorant of the broad spectrum of victims of all races throughout the nation over a period of years where no justice has ever been held to account. I agree that to do so is an intentional distraction. To make it "racial" when it ultimately is a deeper problem.

But the problem you have is there is a real correlation that black populations are at once more likely to be victimized here, and also more likely to be sent to prison or the morgue than a white person. We can theorize on 'why" and the best answer i have seen is the SWAT Cop "If you don't want to be [hurt] by the police then don't live in the war-zones of America." Nevermind that it is our absurd caricature of law ordinance and regulation that brought war zones to America in the first place. So the correlation is simply that underground economies form larger in urban areas, and Black Americans prefer to live closer to the community, in urban areas. Cops enforce in the city because that's where all the action is, and being more greatly represented in close-in urban areas they are disproportionately affected in real numbers.

No matter what the rationale, the real numbers are something like 1 out of 3 black people will be registered with the justice system during their lives, and 1 out of 10 white people for the same. Both are horrible. Either should have us all up in torches and pitchforks. Both of them together is just unspeakable. Pretending that the scales don't weigh a little heavier on one particular Family would reduce credibility by demonstrating a disconnection from reality. Black people are more heavily affected by it, full stop. Now the reasons why that is so are in danger of extraordinary misconstruction by simpletons, which is why so many just avoid the subject.

ETA: a lot. Some accidental keystroke posted it halfway through typing.

[AuH20]

There is a reality that blacks are adversely affected by the Justice System at a highly disproportionate rate to "everybody else." This is one of those issues you are not allowed to mention to conservatives, because in their universe that allows only 3 possibilities: 1) that law enforcement and the courts are racist, 2) that black people just do more crime and therefore they should be racist, and 3) that the system itself is somehow broken, and all three are unthinkable, therefore people refuse to think about it.

What nobody wants to think about is that the system is broken because we have given it too much power. Nobody except us the choir, of course. People are accustomed to seeing a problem and giving the system a little more power and a little more power to deal with all of these problems. Now we face a systemic collapse from the other side, because it has too much power in absolute terms, and it has lost sight of the individuals for which it was created.

Justice is run amok and is only capable of judging itself as having done no wrong. It is no longer black or white. And make no mistake, it used to be, but it is not any longer. It is now completely us and them. The shot-callers and those who just get shot.

The abuse, I think has extended to everyone broadly enough by now, that to point out these things as stemming from a racial bias is short sighted, and ignorant of the broad spectrum of victims of all races throughout the nation over a period of years where no justice has ever been held to account.

I'm not buying it. Black crime is directly tied to lack of family stability, which later manifests itself with violent crime. Look at the violent crime numbers by the demographics. They are off the charts. Rape, robbery, and homicides. Libertarians want to dance around the issue and be Mr. Nice Guy instead of addressing the facts. A judge in a black robe nor the warden is killing other black men in the streets last I checked.

It's akin to to having a son with a drug problem. Are you going to blame the drug manufacturer, while he continues ingest bottles of pills? When I hear the placating that's what immediately comes to my mind. I don't see how any of this can be constructive without actually tackling the core problem.

[GunnyFreedom]

//

[GunnyFreedom]

I'm not buying it. Black crime is directly tied to lack of family stability, which later manifests itself with violent crime. Look at the violent crime numbers by the demographics. They are off the charts. Rape, robbery, and homicides. Libertarians want to dance around the issue and be Mr. Nice Guy instead of addressing the facts. If you have a son with a drug problem, are you going to blame the drug manufacturer, while he continues ingest bottles of pills? ROFL I can't comprehend the babying. It's not constructive.

And where does the lack of family stability come from? 1) Urban welfare rewarding broken homes, 2) Dense urban black and grey markets driving would-be breadwinners into a war for survival around these (likely their only really) accessible markets.

[GunnyFreedom]

The State is creating the very crimes they are fighting, by creating the conditions for which these crimes arise. The crimes you cite arising from broken homes, sure, but it's the State that broke those homes. Not by a theory but absolute and directly in objective terms, by saying, "Stay married and we will give you $10, get divorced and we will give you $20, but if you never marry in the first place we will give you $40." The State has created welfare slavery, and by destroying the family they are actively provoking the very crimes they will use to manifest the Police State in the midst of every one of our communities.

[AuH20]

And where does the lack of family stability come from? 1) Urban welfare rewarding broken homes, 2) Dense urban black and grey markets driving would-be breadwinners into a war for survival around these (likely their only really) accessible markets.

Many blacks started moving en masse to the northern and midwestern cities starting in the 1940s. Along the way they were seduced by the big government schemes which characterize urban life. Not soon after, some very deadly vices entered the picture, which was highlighted by the ramping up of drug markets in their neighborhoods in the early 1960s. The rest is history from that point on. They are now the de facto pinata of the police system because they are prone to cyclical illegitimacy and poverty. Until their communities are restored and behavior is changed, we're going to be talking about this for the foreseeable future.

[AuH20]

The State is creating the very crimes they are fighting, by creating the conditions for which these crimes arise. The crimes you cite arising from broken homes, sure, but it's the State that broke those homes. Not by a theory but absolute and directly in objective terms, by saying, "Stay married and we will give you $10, get divorced and we will give you $20, but if you never marry in the first place we will give you $40." The State has created welfare slavery, and by destroying the family they are actively provoking the very crimes they will use to manifest the Police State in the midst of every one of our communities.

The state basically turned them into multi-generational dependents with a very fragile psyche.

[GunnyFreedom]

The state basically turned them into multi-generational dependents with a very fragile psyche.

I think people are a lot less fragile than you realize, but that the paradigm itself has to be broken for a real change to happen.

[Mr.NoSmile]

I'm so happy everyone here recently got their PhDs in African-American studies...

[AuH20]

I think people are a lot less fragile than you realize, but that the paradigm itself has to be broken for a real change to happen.

They are fragile because some have actually been tricked to believe the nonsense that they are inferior. Look at affirmative action and the recent controversy surrounding the Ct fire department testing.

[Christian Liberty]

I watched that video, and yes, his condemnation of Rand Paul was silly, but his condemnation of everyone else (Peter King and the other politicians) was great. Stewart is hillarious. I enjoy watching him sometimes. Apparently Ron Paul respects him to. No, I don't agree with him all the time, but he's still funny and right often enough to be enjoyable.

[GunnyFreedom]

I'm so happy everyone here recently got their PhDs in African-American studies...

It's nothing like that, it's more like black people are victimized by the State at a significantly higher rate than everyone else. To resolve that blatantly obvious problem one would look for "why" that was happening. However, I still think now that everyone is being so-victimized, a heavy focus on race as a factor is just not all that productive. In the past, deeply so, today, it has more to do with one's objective circumstance than one's family. Making this abuse a racial thing is crying boogieman when the boogieman left 20 years ago and never came back. What's left is the systemic nature of what the boogieman set in place.

As before, when destroying the narrative, i prefer to make all of it a 'human' thing. The point of the above is to understand WHY Black People are disproportionately affected, because when talking about this "out in the real world" you don't want to look ignorant to pretend that they aren't, nor callous to appear as though you think it doesn't matter. "Yes, it's real. yes, it exists. However, the solution I am offering fixes this too, and the solution I am offering is not based on race." Just pretending it's not there is not helpful, but be aware of your audience. Some on the right just acknowledging it exists will set them to riot.

[AuH20]

I'm so happy everyone here recently got their PhDs in African-American studies...

The plight of the black people in this country is a stark warning for the rest of the general population. If whites think that this can't happen to them in 2 to 3 generations, then they are completely delusional. Only a fool would ignore the lessons of the past.

[Occam's Banana]

The State is creating the very crimes they are fighting, by creating the conditions for which these crimes arise. The crimes you cite arising from broken homes, sure, but it's the State that broke those homes. Not by a theory but absolute and directly in objective terms, by saying, "Stay married and we will give you $10, get divorced and we will give you $20, but if you never marry in the first place we will give you $40." The State has created welfare slavery, and by destroying the family they are actively provoking the very crimes they will use to manifest the Police State in the midst of every one of our communities.

Nah, that's way too complicated. It's easier to just say "they did this to themselves."
(It is also more pleasing to one's own smug self-regard and sense of superiority ...)

[AuH20]

"History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals."- Malcolm X

And then people wonder why the ministry of truth in this country fights so hard to alter our historical consciousness.

[kcchiefs6465]

And where does the lack of family stability come from? 1) Urban welfare rewarding broken homes, 2) Dense urban black and grey markets driving would-be breadwinners into a war for survival around these (likely their only really) accessible markets.
Not to mention homes being broken up from the imprisonment of many for non-crimes.

[GunnyFreedom]

Nah, that's way too complicated. It's easier to just say "they did this to themselves."
(It is also more pleasing to one's own smug self-regard and sense of superiority ...)

I know, though not everyone is guilty of that. It is also a mechanism for divorcing one's self from the responsibility for the exploding police state. "He didn't have to do this, that or the other. His own actions made it inevitable that they would but a bullet in his eye. He did it to himself." It's a way to remove one's self from identifying with the victim. "I would NEVER be in that situation, so I'm OK" it brings to mind "I did not speak up when they came for the trade-unionists, for I was not a trade-unionist."

I think only a small subset of people really draw it out into a superiority/inferiority thing, and then only some of those by Family anymore. I think most good hearted people just don't know what to think, so they try not to think about it at all.

[ClydeCoulter]

Perhaps we, ans Rand, should start talking about blue on black and blue on white violence?

That is exactly what the conversation should be. And I think that is what @jmddrake's point was in his posts on the other site, that they tried to side track.

[UWDude]

I'm so happy everyone here recently got their PhDs in African-American studies...


I took 2 African American history classes in college. One was about African Americans in the west, the other was modern african american history, starting after the civil war (when the first black senators and representatives were elected).

It is obvious to me AuH20 hates black people, and he is simply trying to be as diplomatic as possible when saying so, but he doesn't fool me, and his "facts" and theories are full of shit.

[GunnyFreedom]

Not to mention homes being broken up from the imprisonment of many for non-crimes.

And that is the big thing. Ending the War on drugs will positively impact millions more people than those who have ever even looked at a drug. Ending the WOD is one of the most immediate and extreme things that could be done to stop harming the black community all out of ratio with everyone else. However you have to be careful when explaining that because people will hear "black people are druggies" which is neither true nor relevant. The WOD affects people to three degrees of separation from the users and the victims. The entire community is affected when a mom becomes single, short and long term. This punishment and authority for 'crimes' where there is no victim ought not to have any place in America. It is arbitrary, despotic, and uncivilized.

[UWDude]

"History is a people's memory, and without a memory, man is demoted to the lower animals."- Malcolm X

And then people wonder why the ministry of truth in this country fights so hard to alter our historical consciousness.

Oh, I had no idea you were a fan on Malcolm X. :rolleyes:

[GunnyFreedom]

I took 2 African American history classes in college. One was about African Americans in the west, the other was modern african american history, starting after the civil war (when the first black senators and representatives were elected).

It is obvious to me AuH20 hates black people, and he is simply trying to be as diplomatic as possible when saying so, but he doesn't fool me, and his "facts" and theories are full of shit.

I believe that is true about DFF, I do not believe that is true about Au. Au is just speaking about concepts from a language that many associate with that paradigm.

[jmdrake]

I'm so happy everyone here recently got their PhDs in African-American studies...

LOL


Perhaps we, ans Rand, should start talking about blue on black and blue on white violence?

Yep.


That is exactly what the conversation should be. And I think that is what @jmddrake's point was in his posts on the other site, that they tried to side track.

^This. A simple answer to the question of police shooting a white boy with a Wii controller or a black boy with a toy gun or a black man checking out a BB gun at Walmart or a white homeless guy beat to death for no reason whatsoever or a black man choked to death after not willing to bootlick cops trying to arrest him for no good reason is that the real problem is with the system of state aggression aimed at all of us black, white or other. Once we start talking about the racial disparity it becomes a liberal versus conservative argument regarding whether it's the government screwing up the black community or white racism screwing up the black community or black culture screwing up the black community. "Oh blacks are commit more crime because they are oppressed." versus "Oh blacks are oppressed because they commit more crime." Really, I was listening to some dumb white lady on talk radio say "My son was resisting arrest and they bashed his head in so it's okay." White people need to realize...no...it's not okay. Police aggression directed at you is not okay nor is it okay when it's directed at blacks.

[AuH20]

I took 2 African American history classes in college. One was about African Americans in the west, the other was modern african american history, starting after the civil war (when the first black senators and representatives were elected).

It is obvious to me AuH20 hates black people, and he is simply trying to be as diplomatic as possible when saying so, but he doesn't fool me, and his "facts" and theories are full of shit.

Yes, I hate black people. You got me. If we got rid of the 10% constituting black people, everything would be fine and our oppressive government would magically evaporate into the atmosphere. [sarc]

You think I hate black people because I don't kiss the ass of black folks. My number one problem with black people is the victimization complex that they have adopted, thanks to the hoodwinking that has occurred. I'm disappointed in black people because a large portion weren't always rotting in jails and killing each other. They were once a proud race of people in the most difficult of circumstances.

[GunnyFreedom]

LOL



Yep.



^This. A simple answer to the question of police shooting a white boy with a Wii controller or a black boy with a toy gun or a black man checking out a BB gun at Walmart or a white homeless guy beat to death for no reason whatsoever or a black man choked to death after not willing to bootlick cops trying to arrest him for no good reason is that the real problem is with the system of state aggression aimed at all of us black, white or other. Once we start talking about the racial disparity it becomes a liberal versus conservative argument regarding whether it's the government screwing up the black community or white racism screwing up the black community or black culture screwing up the black community. "Oh blacks are commit more crime because they are oppressed." versus "Oh blacks are oppressed because they commit more crime." Really, I was listening to some dumb white lady on talk radio say "My son was resisting arrest and they bashed his head in so it's okay." White people need to realize...no...it's not okay. Police aggression directed at you is not okay nor is it okay when it's directed at blacks.

Exactly, I tried inartfully to make that point a couple times above. It is only important to recognize it exists, to avoid getting ambushed and made to look stupid. The point isn't race, the point is state power. There is too much of it, and the more we sit back and allow it to happen, even drawing up excuses for it, the more it will take each and every one of us to a despotic tyrannical hell.

http://glenbradley.net/imghost/douglass1.jpg

[UWDude]

Yes, I hate black people. You got me. If we got rid of the 10% constituting black people, everything would be fine and our oppressive government would magically evaporate into the atmosphere. [sarc]

You think I hate black people because I don't kiss the ass of black folks. My number one problem with black people is the victimization complex that they have adopted, thanks to the hoodwinking that has occurred. I'm disappointed in black people because a large portion weren't always rotting in jails and killing each other. They were once a proud race of people in the most difficult of circumstances.

No, I think you hate black people because you were actually dumb enough to try and throw this magical shit pile to the wall and see if anybody thought it was chocolate:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463692-Ferguson-decision-is-in-NO-INDICTMENT&p=5714071&viewfull=1#post5714071

Cops are certainly a privileged caste and by the same token, african americans are as well.

There are not enough words in the world to describe how transparent this made you and your motives. You are clearly a fucking racist if you think black people are a privileged caste. And the very notion is so idiotic and twisted, only somebody who really hates black people could come up with such a fucking stupid statement.


My number one problem with black people is the victimization complex that they have adopted, thanks to the hoodwinking that has occurred.

Oh, they were hoodwinked into believing they were oppressed in America? Yup, all them lynchings, imprisonments, police beatings and shootings, denials of housing, jobs, voting, entry into unions, etc, were all just one big charade. All those movies and tv shows making the big black man the scariest thing in the world, and only the white savior cop, standing between you and them, were all just part of black people's imaginations of oppression. They weren't really being oppressed, were they, AuH20? They weren't, and still are not, really victims of the police state, that was all their imagination, right?

Did you know, my African American history classes had a total of 3 black people, out of 120 or so? You know why? Because black history is a big long story of the black man being fucked by white people over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. It is peppered with, small, but sad victories, but those hardly ever come because of white america, they come in spite of white america, and even then, usually the heroes of these small victories are eventually taken down, if not by an enemy, by the government itself.

But all this systemic oppression and victimization, is just their imagination, right? They aren't really victims of a grossly racist culture and legal system. Right?


I'm disappointed in black people because a large portion weren't always rotting in jails and killing each other. They were once a proud race of people in the most difficult of circumstances.

Proud? You sure? And a large portion of them was always rotting in jail. There has always been a disproportionate number of black men in jail (or bondage). Fact is, black people tried for decades to join white society... ...and the vast majority of white people threw them away or under the bus. The real disappointment should be in White Americans, who never tried to understand or embrace black people as equals, the real disappointment should be in the vast swaths of racist whites who truly HATED (and the vast swaths, like you, who still do hate) black people.

It's too late now. There will be no redeeming of the black man. There will be no redeeming of America. Black people will always be there to remind America of its biggest sin, and greatest hypocrisy in a nation founded on freedom (or slavery, depending which side of the whip you were on). You can forget it. America lost its chance to unite with black people as one race decades ago. There will always be wounds, and they will never heal.

[kcchiefs6465]

And that is the big thing. Ending the War on drugs will positively impact millions more people than those who have ever even looked at a drug. Ending the WOD is one of the most immediate and extreme things that could be done to stop harming the black community all out of ratio with everyone else. However you have to be careful when explaining that because people will hear "black people are druggies" which is neither true nor relevant. The WOD affects people to three degrees of separation from the users and the victims. The entire community is affected when a mom becomes single, short and long term. This punishment and authority for 'crimes' where there is no victim ought not to have any place in America. It is arbitrary, despotic, and uncivilized.
Quite honestly this is one of the most cut and dry issues around.

That so many carelessly and foolishly approve of the imprisonment (and often enslavement) of so many for "crimes" that harm no one's liberty, well, let's just say it's been an eye opening experience.

Whether driven by deep seated prejudices, which could be the case sometimes, or by propagandized, raised since "nap time" by the government, drones, it's all disconcerting.

Prison for profit, for crimes that aren't crimes, to build things that the government "needs"... policing for profit, to violate rights and steal property under the most questionable or criminal of circumstances, to provide things that the police department "needs"... I could break the issue down a couple dozen ways. Needless to say, and I know you agree with me, it is immoral, unjust, and ought be stopped. It is equally immoral and unjust that this plastic-bag-left-in-the-crib society comes together because of sheer propaganda drives to vote for me to be stolen from to pay for such evil.

[idiom]

We need a term, that is as strong and precise (0.o) as Racisim to describe institutional corruption.

So that when someone defend a cop you just call them that term, statist is close, but not carrying nearly the same power.

When I was in school, a common debate topic for formal debates was, "should police be armed", and the point was nearly always lost.

Beat cops should learn to operate without weapons, except for a truncheon. That will strongly motivate them to negotiate properly and talk victims down.

[AuH20]

No, I think you hate black people because you were actually dumb enough to try and throw this magical shit pile to the wall and see if anybody thought it was chocolate:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463692-Ferguson-decision-is-in-NO-INDICTMENT&p=5714071&viewfull=1#post5714071

There is not enough words in the world to describe how transparent this made you and your motives.

I still stand by that comment. It's true in some respects. Look at the Trayvon Martin case. We had the freaking Department of Justice intervene. You think that would have happened for a white teen? Another great privilege is the fact that African Americans apparently can't be racist because racism is somehow based on power. And let's not even get started in on the workplace. If you fire someone who is incompetent but happens to be African American, you better have your lawyer on retainer. Of course, they are privileged due to past wrongs.

[AuH20]

Oh, they were hoodwinked into believing they were oppressed in America?

They were hoodwinked into believing that they are helpless and lesser the white population.


Proud? You sure? And a large portion of them was always rotting in jail. There has always been a disproportionate number of black men in jail (or bondage). Fact is, black people tried for decades to join white society... ...and the vast majority of white people threw them away or under the bus. The real disappointment should be in White Americans, who never tried to understand or embrace black people as equals, the real disappointment should be in the vast swaths of racist whites who truly HATED black people.

It's too late now. There will be no redeeming of the black man. There will be no redeeming of America. Black people will always be there to remind America of its biggest sin, and greatest hypocrisy in a nation founded on freedom (or slavery, depending which side of the whip you were on). You can forget it. America lost its chance to unite with black people as one race decades ago. There will always be wounds, and they will never heal.

So you're saying that black happiness is ultimately predicated on joining white society? So if someone hates someone else, should they just pout and stop living their life? And this points to a greater problem. Who cares what the white man thinks and why does he matter in my life? I think that is the hard question more African Americans have to ask themselves. This points to the fragile psyche which I alluded to earlier. Black people should be building their own communities and keeping negative white influences out.

[UWDude]

I still stand by that comment. It's true in some respects. Look at the Trayvon Martin case. We had the freaking Department of Justice intervene. You think that would have happened for a white teen? Another great privilege is the fact that African Americans apparently can't be racist because racism is somehow based on power. And let's not even get started in on the workplace. If you fire someone who is incompetent but happens to be African American, you better have your lawyer on retainer. Of course, they are privileged due to past wrongs.

Do you really think I ever want to try and reason with you, or listen to your stupid drivel on race? You don't know, won't know, and will never understand. For fuck's sake, I don't want to talk Trayvon Martin with you, because I'm busy shoving hot needles in my eyeball. It is far more enjoyable then listening or reading your stupid crap about race. Now excuse me, the pin just got red hot on the burner.

[AuH20]

Oh, I had no idea you were a fan on Malcolm X. :rolleyes:

A great man who never got his due.

"There can be no black-white unity until there is first some black unity.... We cannot think of uniting with others, until after we have first united among ourselves. We cannot think of being acceptable to others until we have first proven acceptable to ourselves."

[GunnyFreedom]

No, I think you hate black people because you were actually dumb enough to try and throw this magical shit pile to the wall and see if anybody thought it was chocolate:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463692-Ferguson-decision-is-in-NO-INDICTMENT&p=5714071&viewfull=1#post5714071

There are not enough words in the world to describe how transparent this made you and your motives. You are clearly a fucking racist if you think black people are a privileged caste. And the very notion is so idiotic and twisted, only somebody who really hates black people could come up with such a fucking stupid statement.

Black people may not be de facto privileged, but they are de jure privileged. Hate crime legislation, VRA Districts to enforce x% of black representatives in the legislature. Affirmative Action. Of course, all of this ends up doing more harm to the very people it is trying to help than good, but it is a nominal privilege. This de jure privilege (even when the de facto state is extraordinary disprivilege) is enough to build resentment from people who believe there should be no privilege at all. The de facto dis-privilege is more difficult to discern, particularly in an environment when such dis-privilege has spread to basically every last kind of man, woman, and child.

Drake is exactly right, focusing on race at all is a distraction. You are both seeing in each other things that are not there, and you particularly. And it's all come up behind this focus on race...


Oh, they were hoodwinked into believing they were oppressed in America? Yup, all them lynchings, imprisonments, police beatings and shootings, denials of housing, jobs, voting, entry into unions, etc, were all just one big charade. All thsoe movies and tv shows making the big black man the scariest thing in the world, and only the white savior cop, standing between you and them, were all just part of black people's imaginations of oppression. They weren't really being oppressed, were they, AuH20? They weren't, and still are not, really victims of the police state, that was all their imagination, right?

The truth is that black people became wealthy, free, and independent for a while after the end of the civil war, and until around 1910 were economically, and educationally out-pacing everyone else by a wide margin. From 1910 to 1930 they tracked the rest of the population, and as a community never really recovered from the Great Depression. From the progressive welfare policies of the Great Depression.

So while again, the context and the language may be throwing you off, but yeah, it was the government stepping in and reducing an entire class of people under despotism. This language that language, I think you just can't get past the language. Au is not saying what you think he is.


Proud? You sure? And a large portion of them was always rotting in jail. There has always been a disproportionate number of black men in jail (or bondage). Fact is, black people tried for decades to join white society... ...and the vast majority of white people threw them away or under the bus. The real disappointment should be in White Americans, who never tried to understand or embrace black people as equals, the real disappointment should be in the vast swaths of racist whites who truly HATED black people.

Look up "The Wilmington Race Riots of 1898" The event itself was horrific, but I am pointing only to the context of the event. Blacks had built the wealthiest, most prosperous city in America, and every race was living within it in harmony. Your reasoning fails to account for history. A rather large portion of black Americans did way better than their white counterparts from 1880 to 1910, and that really, bothered some people. Those people conspired to reduce the black community to their current state, and they have done it.


It's too late now. There will be no redeeming of the black man. There will be no redeeming of America. Black people will always be there to remind America of its biggest sin, and greatest hypocrisy in a nation founded on freedom (or slavery, depending which side of the whip you were on). You can forget it. America lost its chance to unite with black people as one race decades ago. There will always be wounds, and they will never heal.

I, for one, have faith that simply removing the oppressive apparatus will eventually bring these wounds to heal. We could still turn this thing around, but we'd all have to rise up together and stop hating each other for petty, superficial, and irrelevant reasons.

[Christian Liberty]

And that is the big thing. Ending the War on drugs will positively impact millions more people than those who have ever even looked at a drug. Ending the WOD is one of the most immediate and extreme things that could be done to stop harming the black community all out of ratio with everyone else. However you have to be careful when explaining that because people will hear "black people are druggies" which is neither true nor relevant. The WOD affects people to three degrees of separation from the users and the victims. The entire community is affected when a mom becomes single, short and long term. This punishment and authority for 'crimes' where there is no victim ought not to have any place in America. It is arbitrary, despotic, and uncivilized.

THIS! This is a super-important point. I wish more conservatives would think like this.

[UWDude]

The truth is that black people became wealthy, free, and independent for a while after the end of the civil war, and until around 1910 were economically, and educationally out-pacing everyone else by a wide margin. From 1910 to 1930 they tracked the rest of the population, and as a community never really recovered from the Great Depression. From the progressive welfare policies of the Great Depression.

Wrong-O, Racism reared it's ugly head in the early 1900's, and black people were shoved back in the box they just got out of. The great depression happened 30 - 40 years later. Black men owning property? Forget it. It was taken away by any white man who wanted it, since black men's voices in court were useless. The worst time for black people after slavery was actually the 1920's, when The Birth of a Nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation), (the first full length feature film released in the United States, quite telling), was released, and the Ku Klux Klan had infiltrated the government at all levels. And they were not focused on destroying black people by giving them welfare and creating a class of dependency, as oft is the argument bandied by those Libertarians who wish to shy away from the inherent racist roots of the American Nation. No, the Ku Klux Klan wanted to literally wipe black people out.


So while again, the context and the language may be throwing you off, but yeah, it was the government stepping in and reducing an entire class of people under despotism.


the gubmint, tha gubmint. Who the hell do you think elected all those gubmint officials?



Look up "The Wilmington Race Riots of 1898" The event itself was horrific, but I am pointing only to the context of the event. Blacks had built the wealthiest, most prosperous city in America, and every race was living within it in harmony. Your reasoning fails to account for history. A rather large portion of black Americans did way better than their white counterparts from 1880 to 1910, and that really, bothered some people. Those people conspired to reduce the black community to their current state, and they have done it.

I am quite aware of how well black people did after the Civil War. And that is the greatest tragedy, they finally tasted freedom, used it responsibly, wonderfully, and started to rise up. But White America didn't like it, and shoved them back down. For that, The United States again had to pay for decades of the racist blight on its soul.


I, for one, have faith that simply removing the oppressive apparatus will eventually bring these wounds to heal. We could still turn this thing around, but we'd all have to rise up together and stop hating each other for petty, superficial, and irrelevant reasons.

Problem, is, a lot of white people think getting angry and rioting over the killing of a cigar robber, is petty, superficial, and irrelevant. As if Michael Brown was the first black man ever to be lynched in America.

[GunnyFreedom]

Wrong-O, Racism reared it's ugly head in the early 1900's, and black people were shoved back in the box they just got out of. The great depression happened 30 - 40 years later. Black men owning property? Forget it. It was taken away by any white man who wanted it, since black men's voices in court were useless. The worst time for black people after slavery was actually the 1920's, when The Birth of a Nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation), (the first full length feature film released in the United States, quite telling), was released, and the Ku Klux Klan had infiltrated the government at all levels. And they were not focused on destroying black people by giving them welfare and creating a class of dependency, as oft is the argument bandied by those Libertarians who wish to shy away from the inherent racist roots of the American Nation. No, the Ku Klux Klan wanted to literally wipe black people out.



the gubmint, tha gubmint. Who the hell do you think elected all those gubmint officials?



I am quite aware of how well black people did after the Civil War. And that is the greatest tragedy, they finally tasted freedom, used it responsibly, wonderfully, and started to rise up. But White America didn't like it, and shoved them back down. For that, The United States again had to pay for decades of the racist blight on its soul.



Problem, is, a lot of white people think getting angry and rioting over the killing of a cigar robber, is petty, superficial, and irrelevant. As if Michael Brown was the first black man ever to be lynched in America.

There was a serious period of prosperity before it was crushed by jealous hateful men like the KKK. Wilmington North Carolina would not even exist except for that period.

[Origanalist]

I took 2 African American history classes in college. One was about African Americans in the west, the other was modern african american history, starting after the civil war (when the first black senators and representatives were elected).

It is obvious to me AuH20 hates black people, and he is simply trying to be as diplomatic as possible when saying so, but he doesn't fool me, and his "facts" and theories are full of shit.

I think jmdrake hates black people too. He sure sounds like a racist.

[Origanalist]

I have to go with the opinion of the guy that took African American history classes in college.

[Danke]

I have to go with the opinion of the guy that took African American history classes in college.

I took a women studies course in college, so trust me when I speak of them.

[Origanalist]

I took a women studies course in college, so trust me when I speak of them.

See? There you go, you are obviously an expert. I rest my case.

[acptulsa]

Do you really think I ever want to try and reason with you, or listen to your stupid drivel on race? You don't know, won't know, and will never understand. For fuck's sake, I don't want to talk Trayvon Martin with you, because I'm busy shoving hot needles in my eyeball. It is far more enjoyable then listening or reading your stupid crap about race. Now excuse me, the pin just got red hot on the burner.

You aren't trying to reason with anyone at all. There have been wealthy African Americans. They didn't get what they had taken away at gunpoint point blank. Race relations are improving every single decade. The white people you want to demonize as a group in one fell swoop did do the lion's share of the work that made the underground railroad run. If it weren't for white abolitionists, Lincoln could never have gotten the Emancipation Proclamation issued--and wouldn't have tried.

You're trying to fight one revisionist history with another. That never works, because the people watching the debate invariably see two sets of lies, and comes to realize that the debate they're watching will never teach them anything at all.

Stop ranting brainlessly and do something smart. Say something intelligent like, 'Yes, Greenwood Avenue in Tulsa during its oil boom was called 'The Black Wall Street of America, and was wealthier than some white Tulsa neighborhoods. But for each success story there, there were a thousand blacks on Alabama plantations who were still in slavery because they owed their souls to the plantation company store--and the local sheriff would have been happy to collect. And just because the entrepreneurs down on Greenwood worked hard enough and succeeded well enough to buy themselves cars and victrolas doesn't mean they were allowed to grow rich and powerful enough to challenge Wall Street's dominance in any kind of meaningful way.'

Unless you just want to appear to be a brainless parrot regurgitating the divisive talking points you learned in school, and incapable of an adult conversation on the subject, of course. Because if that's what you want, I'll let you continue without further interruption.

As for you, AuH2O, I've told you often enough that talking about a race as a monolithic group, only to go back later and protest that of course you were really talking about some individuals in that group, that when I see you continuing to make it seem you're talking about entire races and never making it clear that you mean certain individuals I can't help but feel you might be doing it on purpose to make us look like we hang around with racists. Never thought silver and water would be the stuff someone would make a lightning rod of...

[UWDude]

You aren't trying to reason with anyone at all. There have been wealthy African Americans. They didn't get what they had taken away at gunpoint point blank.

Bullshit. They have had every gun aimed at them since the first slave was brought from Africa. It is Cultural and literal genocide on every front, ans always has been. Millions of men had everything they had taken at gunpoint this decade, by police hauling them away from family, adn propaganda making them look like the worst man in the world.


Race relations are improving every single decade.

So was prosperity. Now it is time to see the ugly, festering wound of racism and slavery rear it's ugly head again.


The white people you want to demonize as a group in one fell swoop did do the lion's share of the work that made the underground railroad run. If it weren't for white abolitionists, Lincoln could never have gotten the Emancipation Proclamation issued--and wouldn't have tried.

Oh yes, there were certainly that small, 10% of righteous, and smaller 3% "agitators", that has always been the case. Most of America is still inherently racist, and doesn't even know it. It is because it is imbibed by them in every news story, every television show, every movie. I could literally produce a million instances this past decade, of cultural, institutional racism, and you wouldn't believe me. The United States is the empire of racism. It's imperialist polices have been about race. The Japanese, during WW II believed so, and believed it was better they, the Japanese rule Asians, than white people.


You're trying to fight one revisionist history with another. That never works, because the people watching the debate invariably see two sets of lies, and comes to realize that the debate they're watching will never teach them anything at all.

Very diplomatic way of calling me a liar, but I am not, I tell the truth. You also misunderstand my intentions, which I will get to later.


Stop ranting brainlessly and do something smart. Say something intelligent like,

What I am saying is intelligent, and educated. I am a history major, and a very intelligent one at that, and one who hates oppression, at that, and one who loves truth, at that.


'Yes, Greenwood Avenue in Tulsa during its oil boom was called 'The Black Wall Street of America, and was wealthier than some white Tulsa neighborhoods. But for each success story there, there were a thousand blacks on Alabama plantations who were still in slavery because they owed their souls to the plantation company store--and the local sheriff would have been happy to collect. And just because the entrepreneurs down on Greenwood worked hard enough and succeeded well enough to buy themselves cars and victrolas doesn't mean they were allowed to grow rich and powerful enough to challenge Wall Street's dominance in any kind of meaningful way.'

No, this is not intelligent, unless it add,

"Economic pressures, however, were the lesser of the pillars to be attacked. At the core of the destruction of Greenwood Avenue was again Insitutionalized racism, and one backed with both vigilante and legal "justice", be it lynching, shooting, imprisonment, seizing of property, or expulsion..."

Because I have learned, that at the core of every failure for the downtrodden black race, you can surely find white America, at it's adolescence, armed with KKK hoods and marching in the millions, at it's even more powerful, armed with the police, Hollywood, politics and even science, to now, where it has a militarized police force, and massive intelligence agency apparatus. Of course it is pointed at white people too, that has always been the case, but it is ALWAYS pointed more heavily at black people.

Also, You are asking me to attempt a diplomatic phrase, but not the full truth, you are also asking me to make a statement to sound intelligent. I am not here to obfuscate, or unite, or even here to sound intelligent. I am here to tell the truth. Of course money hates competitors, but they really hate minorities, unless they can turn them collaborator, then they are their best friend. And they *despise* black people, they despise the poor as it is, but they really despise the black poor. Always have.


Unless you just want to appear to be a brainless parrot regurgitating the divisive talking points you learned in school, and incapable of an adult conversation on the subject, of course. Because if that's what you want, I'll let you continue without further interruption.

Please do, student.

[DFF]

Proud? You sure? And a large portion of them was always rotting in jail. There has always been a disproportionate number of black men in jail (or bondage). Fact is, black people tried for decades to join white society... ...and the vast majority of white people threw them away or under the bus. The real disappointment should be in White Americans, who never tried to understand or embrace black people as equals, the real disappointment should be in the vast swaths of racist whites who truly HATED (and the vast swaths, like you, who still do hate) black people.

It's too late now. There will be no redeeming of the black man. There will be no redeeming of America. Black people will always be there to remind America of its biggest sin, and greatest hypocrisy in a nation founded on freedom (or slavery, depending which side of the whip you were on). You can forget it. America lost its chance to unite with black people as one race decades ago. There will always be wounds, and they will never heal.

Pile that white guilt up high why don't ya'...everything you say is 100% pureed bullshit.

[GunnyFreedom]

Wrong-O, Racism reared it's ugly head in the early 1900's, and black people were shoved back in the box they just got out of. The great depression happened 30 - 40 years later. Black men owning property? Forget it. It was taken away by any white man who wanted it, since black men's voices in court were useless. The worst time for black people after slavery was actually the 1920's, when The Birth of a Nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation), (the first full length feature film released in the United States, quite telling), was released, and the Ku Klux Klan had infiltrated the government at all levels. And they were not focused on destroying black people by giving them welfare and creating a class of dependency, as oft is the argument bandied by those Libertarians who wish to shy away from the inherent racist roots of the American Nation. No, the Ku Klux Klan wanted to literally wipe black people out.

Sure in the South, that was a part of the war that was started by the Wilmington Insurrection. The prosperity pockets began to vanish in a sweep north. Many held out in Maine and Wisconsin. Many moved out west where there was a mix of bigot and human, but at least there were humans. It took time for these sheetheads to affect the Canadian border. I honestly believe that except for the depression, wealthy black people will have re-emerged and enriched the entire nation in the long run. The explosion of wealth in the industrial revolution, the abandonment of Wilmington. Redividing the United States along familiar lines, and creeping racial war crawling north out of a democratic hell.

I understand the period. It didn't all happen overnight; and the Depression was the final straw. Except for it, I believe some people would have recovered and restored the prosperity cycle. But then they lost a generation who knew what they were about. And then they were poor broke and lost. And so the government says "Here if you are hungry I will give you $10, but if you get divorced we will make that $20. Have a kid and we will make that $40. Now go do your thing. Thanks a lot FDR.

It's not only the intensity of a thing but also timing and duration. There were still points and clusters of black wealth in Yankee-ville and out west.

The racists declared war on the Black Race at the turn of the century, and Wilmington NC had an unreasonably lot to do with it.

And when did racism rear it's head? I mean, when really, a couple generations after Noah?

[AuH20]

As for you, AuH2O, I've told you often enough that talking about a race as a monolithic group, only to go back later and protest that of course you were really talking about some individuals in that group, that when I see you continuing to make it seem you're talking about entire races and never making it clear that you mean certain individuals I can't help but feel you might be doing it on purpose to make us look like we hang around with racists. Never thought silver and water would be the stuff someone would make a lightning rod of...

We have underlying trends that occur in certain demographics. That's just the reality of it. I don't know why everyone gets so uptight. Like I said earlier, blacks aren't genetically predisposed to crime, but due to certain cultural factors they are committing more of the crime. With that said, gullible whites are the primary reason the country is teetering on the precipice of oblivion. They have been in control of the political levers for decades and have voluntarily took the country down this path. So when I hear ignoramuses complaining about blacks and minorities for the impending fall in the country I just have to laugh.

[AuH20]

Pile that white guilt up high why don't ya'...everything you say is 100% pureed bullshit.

Some of what he said is true. There has been institutional obstacles erected. But I don't see a great reconciliation being possible due to so much bad blood being spilt. It's like two divergent cultures that are nearly incompatible. Just examine the hazing that goes on in schools when you have an African American student that is performing well academically. They are ridiculed for acting white. How do you cure something like that? And white people born in the years after 1964 can't be continually dragged into the slavery argument when it is convenient to manipulate their feelings.

At this point, I'm resolved to the fact that the mere presence of the past aggressor (whites) must be removed so black people can rediscover themselves because they are simply trapped in a cycle of self-imposed victimization in the current paradigm. Malcolm X was right in stating that they were better off separated.

[acptulsa]

"Economic pressures, however, were the lesser of the pillars to be attacked. At the core of the destruction of Greenwood Avenue was again Insitutionalized racism, and one backed with both vigilante and legal "justice", be it lynching, shooting, imprisonment, seizing of property, or expulsion..."

Because I have learned, that at the core of every failure for the downtrodden black race, you can surely find white America, at it's adolescence, armed with KKK hoods and marching in the millions, at it's even more powerful, armed with the police, Hollywood, politics and even science, to now, where it has a militarized police force, and massive intelligence agency apparatus.

I'm sure all that sounded real good on your term paper. But let me help you understand just how clueless your regurgitation makes you sound to someone who knows Greenwood Avenue one hell of a lot better than you do.

The Greenwood district was rebuilt twice. The first time was after the riots, when it was rebuilt by entrepreneurial African-Americans in a period of a few short months. The second time it was rebuilt, the federal government threw millions at it, bringing it back from a few decades of neglect, after desegregation killed it.

If you want to show us how educated and intelligent you are, tell us how desegregation killed it. Yes, it's a story of racism, but no, neither the KKK nor violence figures into it at all.

Hurry up, before I give up on you and educate everyone here for you.

[UWDude]

I'm sure all that sounded real good on your term paper. But let me help you understand just how clueless your regurgitation makes you sound to someone who knows Greenwood Avenue one hell of a lot better than you do.

The Greenwood district was rebuilt twice. The first time was after the riots, when it was rebuilt by entrepreneurial African-Americans in a period of a few short months. The second time it was rebuilt, the federal government threw millions at it, bringing it back from a few decades of neglect, after desegregation killed it.

If you want to show us how educated and intelligent you are, tell us how desegregation killed it. Yes, it's a story of racism, but no, neither the KKK nor violence figures into it at all.

Hurry up, before I give up on you and educate everyone here for you.

I didn't write a term paper on Greenwood Avenue.
Sounds like you read a book.
Good for you.
Now read 40+ more, like I have on the subject of black history, and then try talking down to me.
....aaand... ...tell me you don't see a common theme in everything.

And it is nice that black people rebuilt Greenwood, but did anybody who actually did the looting or killing have to pay for the damage? Were any charges ever brought? You seriously are going to talk about Greenwood avenue because why? You are going to use one of the worst race riots in history to claim that it is economics, and not racism, that is keeping black people down? You are crazy.

America is racist to the core, and always has been. Period.


They didn't get what they had taken away at gunpoint point blank.

You gonna rescind that? Or are you going to stand by it?

[acptulsa]

I didn't write a term paper on Greenwood Avenue.
Sounds like you read a book.
Good for you.
Now read 65 more, like I have on the subject, and then try talking down to me.
....aaand... ...tell me you don't see a common theme in everything.

America is racist to the core, and always has been. Period.

The true history of Greenwood has never appeared in one book.

Desegregation allowed people of all races to shop in all stores. Those owned by minorities couldn't get as good wholesale prices as those stores owned by whites. African Americans went where the best prices were, and that was the real end of Greenwood.

Violent racism the people of the Greenwood district could and did overcome. Systemic racism they could not. Stores, good schools, even factories they could build and run. But they would have had to open a factory in every business under the sun to avoid being discriminated against and remain competitive, which was impossible given they didn't have the numbers to do it all. And still some whites would have avoided doing business with them--specifically the 'crackers'.

So far you get an F. But here's a nice extra credit question for you: Where does the term 'crackers' come from?

Come along, now. So far you look like an educated idiot. But don't worry. You can save face. I've posted the answer to the extra credit problem on this site before.

Come along, Mr. Read 65 Books And Get Back To Me. Stop depending on the pablum your prof spoon fed you to save your ass and do your research. I've read enough and seen enough to understand both the politically correct history and that history which is not so cooperative. Have you?

[UWDude]

Violent racism the people of the Greenwood district could and did overcome. Systemic racism they could not.

1. violent racism is part of systemic racism.
2. This statement is correct, and that is all I was saying.

[FloralScent]

I didn't write a term paper on Greenwood Avenue.
Sounds like you read a book.
Good for you.
Now read 40+ more, like I have on the subject of black history, and then try talking down to me.
....aaand... ...tell me you don't see a common theme in everything.

America is racist to the core, and always has been. Period.



You gonna rescind that? Or are you going to stand by it?

You're problem is you've read nothing but Marxist drivel. You'd have been better off if you'd had dropped out in the 6th grade and got a job.

"Racist! Racist! Racist!", you sound like goddamn Leon Trosky. You're nothing but a goddamn parrot.

Nobody likes a whiner. Nobody respects it and nobody wants to fucking hear it.

[UWDude]

You're problem is you've read nothing but Marxist drivel. You'd have been better off if you'd had dropped out in the 6th grade and got a job.

"Racist! Racist! Racist!", you sound like goddamn Leon Trosky. You're nothing but a goddamn parrot.

Nobody likes a whiner. Nobody respects it and nobody wants to fucking hear it.

How do you know what books I've read?
BTW, I read over 15 books extra not assigned to me in those two classes.

And America IS racist. If Satan himself said it, it would not make it any less true. Just because communists used it in their propaganda, does not mean it isn't true.


And one more thing, do you think America stopped being racist after 1965 or something?

[DamianTV]

I'll just wait for someone to post a video "If I were the Devil" from like 1960... If I were the Devil, I wouldnt do anything differently, society is bringing itself to an end by its own hand.

The thing is that the african americans that feel victimized are absolutely correct. They are being systematically targetted. What they fail to see is it isnt just blacks that are being targetted, it is every man of every color. Our muslim community of many many good people can also jusificably claim to be victimized. So can the Japanese who lived stateside during WWII. And the Germans. And the Jews. And the Native American Indians.

We need to quit trying to be white men or black men or christian men or american men, and just be men. Then we will see that it is not our differences that divide us, but those who monger the fear and hatred in each other for those same petty differences.

[acptulsa]

1. violent racism is part of systemic racism.
2. This statement is correct, and that is all I was saying.

Here's what you said:


You are going to use one of the worst race riots in history to claim that it is economics, and not racism, that is keeping black people down? You are crazy.

Am I crazy? Or is your politically correct curriculum busy trying to distract you with somewhat isolated incidents of violence from the fact that it was indeed economic leverage that has kept the minorities down? And would that be because those same economic tactics are being used to keep all of us down today, and they don't want you to be able to see that so they don't teach you how it worked and works?

I'm not saying violence wasn't common and systemic. I'm saying the economic pressures beat them down all day, every day--and every night. Just like they're doing to those who refuse to learn from history today.

In denying it--even to the point of blindly and foolishly disparaging the mental health of those who try to teach you about it--you insult and disparage the very people who built world-class schools on a shoestring, who built successful businesses that lasted for decades despite the obstacles strewn in their paths, who rebuilt districts like Greenwood, and rebuilt them, and rebuilt them again when they could scrounge the resources to do it. You are dissing people of color--people who are your betters--by denying their accomplishments simply because they didn't happen to be in the pablum your prof spoon-fed you.

You haven't improved your failing grade, son. Crackers were so-named because travelers in the Deep South would stop in towns founded by African-Americans without knowing, go in the store, see no other white faces around, and buy the cheapest thing they could find before retiring at high speed. And since saltine packets were a penny...

[UWDude]

somewhat isolated incidents of violence

See, there you go again. "somewhat isolated"
Violence is, was, and always has been systemic against blacks. It has never been "somewhat isolated"


The true history of Greenwood has never appeared in one book.

I wonder what those black Tulsa businessmen got, when they went to insurance companies, and tried to claim their losses. I wonder how much money was destroyed in those days, and how much it would be in today's dollars if it had simply been put in CD's and adjusted for inflation. I wonder how many wealthy, respectable black businessmen were killed.

Where has it appeared, then? What books have you read on the subject? I say we pick one, and read it, one that deals with Black Wall Street. (I am serious by the way, I think it is time we both read a book on the subject.... ..I will not be shocked, but I am sure you will. I've read enough black history to know that the violence, intimidation, and political pressure on black America has always been more extreme than on white America, and I have read thousands of accounts of common occurrences, that would horrify anybody of the indignity, be it at the hands of police, or the State, the court system, (family, criminal or civil), or neighbors).

A blight on American History, and you suggest I make a statement that disregards the riots as part of the downfall of Black wall Street. And there is no way I will, nor will I ignore all the injustice I am sure happened in the decades after. I know it is there, and I know a book will open your eyes to how things did not exactly get better in race relations after the burning of Black Wall Street.

I don't have to read a book to know it, I don't have to. Black history has a pretty obvious pattern. But I will read a book on it, if any of you will do the same.

[acptulsa]

See, there you go again. "somewhat isolated"
Violence is, was, and always has been systemic against blacks. It has never been "somewhat isolated"


I wonder what those black Tulsa businessmen got, when they went to white insurance companies, and tried to claim their losses. I wonder how much money was destroyed in those days, and how much it would be in today's dollars if it had simply been put in CD's and adjusted for inflation. I wonder how many wealthy, respectable black businessmen were killed.

Where has it appeared, then? What books have you read on the subject? I say we pick one, and read it, one that deals with Tulsa. (I am serious by the way, I think it is time we both read a book on the subject.... ..I will not be shocked, but I am sure you will. I've read enough black history to know that the violence, intimidation, and political pressure on black America has always been more extreme than on white America, and I have read thousands of accounts of common occurrences, that would horrify anybody of the indignity, be it at the hands of police, or the State, the court system, (family, criminal or civil), or neighbors).

A blight on American History, and you suggest I make a statement that disregards the riots as part of the downfall of Black wall Street.

The only way we get a serious and balanced account of Greenwood is if we write one.

The subject was taboo until race riots over forced busing began to happen in the mid-1970s. Then the old folks told us about it, apparently because they (still, half a century later) had their fill of race riots and wanted to defuse the situation. I've seen the microfilm of newspapers with their front pages ripped out--from after the riot, where the page was restored before the microfilm was made, and from the day before, when the newspapers were agitating people, and which pages never reappeared. I have walked the ground. I have seen the one surviving building rebuilt. I have gone to school at the campus that served as the firebreak that kept the half square mile of inferno and desolation from spreading farther. I know the airport from which the oilmen took off to attack Greenwood in the first known aerial attack to happen on U.S. soil. I can name the three railroads that had their operations disrupted by the riot. I can show you where one of the biggest businesses founded during the 'Black Wall St. of America' days was lat housed before it got sold out to a conglomerate in the 1980s. I have talked to survivors. My grandparents housed refugees from it. I have a pretty fair idea where the more than 300 bodies are buried. I can take you there.

Good luck getting that out of any quantity of books.

[UWDude]

The only way we get a serious and balanced account of Greenwood is if we write one.

The subject was taboo until race riots over forced busing began to happen in the mid-1970s. Then the old folks told us about it, apparently because they (still, half a century later) had their fill of race riots and wanted to defuse the situation. I've seen the microfilm of newspapers with their front pages ripped out--from after the riot, where the page was restored before the microfilm was made, and from the day before, when the newspapers were agitating people, and which pages never reappeared. I have walked the ground. I have seen the one surviving building rebuilt. I have gone to school at the campus that served as the firebreak that kept the half square mile of inferno and desolation from spreading farther. I know the airport from which the oilmen took off to attack Greenwood in the first known aerial attack to happen on U.S. soil. I can show you where one of the biggest businesses founded during the 'Black Wall St. of America' days was lat housed before it got sold out to a conglomerate in the 1980s. I have talked to survivors. My grandparents housed refugees from it. I have a pretty fair idea where the more than 300 bodies are buried. I can take you there.

Good luck getting that out of any quantity of books.

That's very interesting. So what, in your opinion, since you seem to be the expert on it here, would be a good start for a book on the subject?

Keep in mind, you have seen bits and pieces of it. Some people lived it. Some people lived there. And if you are going to appeal to authority, (because you've been there), I am first going to listen to what someone truly educated on it enough, to write a book on it, first has to say, before you. And I would bet we have a pick of at least a half dozen books on the subject. I see a couple on Amazon right now.

If you ever get the "we" together, to write your version of the history, so be it, I'd love to read that book too, especially from a Ron Paul camp perspective.

But I am dead serious. Let's read a book, shall we?

I warn you, when you pick one from black history, there is far more tragedy than victory. It's a very, very, sad place to go.

[James Madison]

Let's not forget the greatest privilege of all....

....being alive in the 21st Century and having access to the internet, medicine, electricity, basic sanitation, food, and water.

If you can't be successful in 2014, it's your own damn fault. Come at me, bros.

[acptulsa]

But I am dead serious. Let's read a book, shall we?

I warn you, when you pick one from black history, there is far more tragedy than victory. It's a very, very, sad place to go.

You think I didn't notice it was a sad place to go? When this dirty old secret was revealed to a whole generation of Tulsans ignorant of it in circa 1974, there were a whole bunch of us having the same reaction--'Wha-a-a-a-a-at?! Since then, only a handful of us have actively sought out the ugly facts, and even fewer have gone to any trouble to sift the facts from the baggage.

Pick your book. Name it. Just don't be upset when I tell you which parts the author got wrong.

But there's one thing that's undeniable: The race riot of 1921 did not kill 'The Black Wall St. of America.' The economics of desegregation did.

So, am I crazy?

[UWDude]

You think I didn't notice it was a sad place to go? When this dirty old secret was revealed to a whole generation of Tulsans ignorant of it in circa 1974, there were a whole bunch of us having the same reaction--'Wha-a-a-a-a-at?! Since then, only a handful of us have actively sought out the ugly facts, and even fewer have gone to any trouble to sift the facts from the baggage.

Pick your book. Name it. Just don't be upset when I tell you which parts the author got wrong.

That, would be interesting. I'll go with the first one mentioned in the wikipedia article:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0618108130/ref=asc_df_06181081303429612?smid=A2D6PFTBWKIZQD&tag=pgmp-1583-97-20&linkCode=df0&creative=395109&creativeASIN=0618108130

Riot and Remembrance: The Tulsa Race War and Its Legacy
James S. Hirsh
2002

"A best-selling author investigates the causes of the twentieth century's deadliest race riot and how its legacy has scarred and shaped a community over the past eight decades."


LoL. Imagine if this had happened to real Wall Street in the 1920s. Imagine the economic devastation on the American economy.

[acptulsa]

Fair enough. A couple of library branches have it handy. I'll check it out.

We'll see if your prof taught you something more than how act arrogant in front of exactly the wrong people.

Mr. Drake, if I'm wrong about whether you mind us hijacking your thread, do speak up.

[UWDude]

Let's not forget the greatest privilege of all....

....being alive in the 21st Century and having access to the internet, medicine, electricity, basic sanitation, food, and water.

If you can't be successful in 2014, it's your own damn fault. Come at me, bros.

Black people are in a horrible situation right now. There is no doubt about it. A lot of it is "their" own fault. But it must be understood, the ignorant culture, thug culture etc did not form in a vacuum.

There will always be those people, no matter what situation, that will rise above all odds, and live a good life.
However, when the cards are stacked against you, the cards are stacked against you. And your chances of being a superstar are slimmed.

What I am saying is, you have not lived in their shoes. You have not been forced to choose a gang because every day you were worried about getting beat up. (by other black people, yes). You have not felt the cultural pressures to "not be white", which is horrible, because it throws the baby out with the bathwater. But, the mentality exists in the urban black community right now, education is as white as police beatings.

As I said, there will always be those that rise up against all these pressures. But the cards are stacked against them. Chances are, black baby born today has a much different life ahead of himself than a white one. I mean they will both face the many of the same challenges. But black babies, and especially young men, have a whole different set of challenges that white people simply do not have.

If you still aren't following me, imagine this, YOU grow up in a culture, where thug life is glorified, and capitalized. You grow up in a culture where crime is encouraged, both from black and white media. You grow up in that culture where crime is encouraged, but where the police are brutal. You grow up in a culture that, let's be real, at the least, dislikes white people, both because of history and because of current attitudes.

It's a recursive cycle. And the end isn't pretty.

America's race problems are not going to fade away. Hating black people because of the constant exposing of the worst of their society by the dominant culture is nothing new. When black people moved to the North, even other (old timer, established) black people hated them, because of how rude, crass, etc they were. The denigration of the black race by America has been standard operation since before it was even a country.

[acptulsa]

Black people are in a horrible situation right now. There is no doubt about it. A lot of it is "their" own fault. But it must be understood, the ignorant culture, thug culture etc did not form in a vacuum.

There will always be those people, no matter what situation, that will rise above all odds, and live a good life.
However, when the cards are stacked against you, the cards are stacked against you. And your chances of being a superstar are slimmed.

If you had a better grip on history, you'd realize that we are no longer in different boats. You're right that it isn't because they got taken aboard the luxury liner. It's because the captains of the luxury liner put the rest of us white fools off, and now we're in the black folks' old rowboat.

[UWDude]

We'll see if your prof taught you something more than how act arrogant in front of exactly the wrong people.

I guess now is as a good a time as any to demand an apology from you. You are the one who came in slinging insults and being arrogant. Not me. See below, excerpts from your entering post into this thread, directed at me:


You aren't trying to reason with anyone at all.

I believe i said I did not want to try to reason with AuH20, on this subject, and that is what I meant. And personally, I thought the hot needles through my eye was pretty accurate too. I do not want to try to reason with posters on this boards that I have read enough from to know which side of the hood they are on.


Stop ranting brainlessly and do something smart.

Hey, fuck you too, dude.


Say something intelligent like

Then I took issue with this. Because what you wrote blinded over the effects of racism, and tried to paint it in a unifying message of corporate and governmental dominance in a free market.


Unless you just want to appear to be a brainless parrot regurgitating the divisive talking points you learned in school

You don't know what I learned in school, so fuck you too, dude. And I know when you try to tell me what I appear to be, you are actually just saying I am. Old internet forum moderator skirting trick, ca 2003.

[UWDude]

If you had a better grip on history, you'd realize that we are no longer in different boats. You're right that it isn't because they got taken aboard the luxury liner. It's because the captains of the luxury liner put the rest of us white fools off, and now we're in the black folks' old rowboat.

We are still in different boats. Everything the government has done, has always been particularly harsh on black people. And I mean, almost, literally, everything. The only thing is, the harshness is growing now amongst the general population as well. But even then, it's still a very different boat.

[UWDude]

DP

[acptulsa]

I guess now is as a good a time as any to demand an apology from you. You are the one who came in slinging insults and being arrogant.

Look closer, and you'll see why I won't be apologizing for fighting fire with fire.


We are still in different boats. Everything the government has done, has always been particularly harsh on black people. And I mean, almost, literally, everything. The only thing is, the harshness is growing now amongst the general population as well. But even then, it's still a very different boat.

You might as well say whites and blacks were in the same boat in 1921 because both were allowed to start a small business in any number of fields with minimal regulatory obstacles in the way. And there's more than a grain of truth to that. Or did they not teach you how race was used divide and conquer, and southern whites wound up seriously poor as a direct result?

Whether you're in the front of the bus or the back of the bus, the bus is still not the limousine.

[Pericles]

I have to go with the opinion of the guy that took African American history classes in college.

ROTFLMAO

[Deborah K]

America is racist to the core, and always has been. Period.


I'm an American and I'm not a racist. Stop with the stereotyping bullshit. We, the longtime members of this forum, need to knock this crap off! We need to be espousing the fact that all that matters when dealing with others (no matter their race, religion, or creed) is:

#1: How they treat people - don't harm, don't take another's property

#2: How they answer this question: What is the proper role of government?

If you want policy to change, then you have to change the culture. And you're not going to change it by feeding into the "divide and conquer" mentality.

[Deborah K]

I'll just wait for someone to post a video "If I were the Devil" from like 1960... If I were the Devil, I wouldnt do anything differently, society is bringing itself to an end by its own hand.

The thing is that the african americans that feel victimized are absolutely correct. They are being systematically targetted. What they fail to see is it isnt just blacks that are being targetted, it is every man of every color. Our muslim community of many many good people can also jusificably claim to be victimized. So can the Japanese who lived stateside during WWII. And the Germans. And the Jews. And the Native American Indians.

We need to quit trying to be white men or black men or christian men or american men, and just be men. Then we will see that it is not our differences that divide us, but those who monger the fear and hatred in each other for those same petty differences.

You beat me to it.

[Deborah K]

You haven't improved your failing grade, son. Crackers were so-named because travelers in the Deep South would stop in towns founded by African-Americans without knowing, go in the store, see no other white faces around, and buy the cheapest thing they could find before retiring at high speed. And since saltine packets were a penny...

I read it had something to do with cracking the whip across a slave's back.

[Deborah K]

We are still in different boats. Everything the government has done, has always been particularly harsh on black people. And I mean, almost, literally, everything. The only thing is, the harshness is growing now amongst the general population as well. But even then, it's still a very different boat.

How did Obama get elected in your opinion?

[DamianTV]

How did Obama get elected in your opinion?

By making sure it was Romney vs Obama and not Ron Paul vs Obama... I blame this one on the Republicans and the entire completely dishonest voting system. Your vote doesnt count if you voted for Ron Paul!

[Deborah K]

By making sure it was Romney vs Obama and not Ron Paul vs Obama... I blame this one on the Republicans and the entire completely dishonest voting system. Your vote doesnt count if you voted for Ron Paul!

Actually, it was a rhetorical question for the Dude. He seems to think nothing's really changed for blacks in this country, so I wanna know how we ended up with a black man for President. And yeah, he's half white, but he doesn't readily acknowledge it. So how bout it, Dude? Tell us how Obama got elected in this country that is "racist to the core"?

[acptulsa]

Well, I'm reasonably impressed with the book so far, dude. One of the first characters he introduces is Mabel Pressley, the lady who founded the very business I specifically referred to, and which lasted into the 1980s. But I don't know why he didn't say right in the introduction that the 'alleged assault' consisted of a black teenage boy stepping on the foot of a young white woman, then very nervously (and no doubt a bit too loudly) apologizing at length for doing so.

[acptulsa]

Oh, and You were throwing rhetoric at me in such volume earlier, I neglected to answer a few specific things I wanted to answer.


See, there you go again. "somewhat isolated"
Violence is, was, and always has been systemic against blacks. It has never been "somewhat isolated"

It was always somewhat isolated, dude. If it had been as constant as the economic warfare against them was, nobody--white or black--would ever have gotten anything done for the constant violence.


I wonder what those black Tulsa businessmen got, when they went to insurance companies, and tried to claim their losses.

Many got full recompense. Many, however, did not. One thing is certain--many North Tulsa underwriters went broke that day.

Yes, son, that's what I said, and that 's the truth. There were insurance companies wholly owned and run by black Tulsans.

Some got paid--whether their underwriter was white or black. Or are you denying that there were any non-racist whites in those days--perhaps even John Brown hated anyone of African descent?


I wonder how much money was destroyed in those days, and how much it would be in today's dollars if it had simply been put in CD's and adjusted for inflation.

Gold and silver don't burn, and certificates of deposit wouldn't be invented for decades to come. Fireproof safes, on the other hand, were old hat. The most respected American brands had proven themselves in the Chicago Fire fifty years prior.


I wonder how many wealthy, respectable black businessmen were killed.

I do, too. Not that many; they weren't so thick on the ground that they weren't missed.


Where has it appeared, then? What books have you read on the subject?

When I educated myself on the subject, there were no books about it at all.


I say we pick one, and read it, one that deals with Black Wall Street.

Hurry and catch up, I'm already halfway through the intro. Don't mind if I do. Especially if it causes you to stop talking through your ass, and maybe even helps you see how much of your 'education' is actually propaganda.


(I am serious by the way, I think it is time we both read a book on the subject.... ..I will not be shocked, but I am sure you will.

If I can avoid being shocked by your arrogance, I think I can avoid being shocked by anything. You seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that one of us was born south of the Mason-Dixon line before the Civil Rights Act was passed. You really think all history comes from books written by politically correct revisionist liberals? Got news--history gets lived before it gets written.


I don't have to read a book to know it, I don't have to. Black history has a pretty obvious pattern. But I will read a book on it, if any of you will do the same.

Ha. You don't have to read a book, because some progressive propagandist talked to you about patterns, and you think you can see them. I lived those patterns, but am reading the book anyway.


Then I took issue with this. Because what you wrote blinded over the effects of racism, and tried to paint it in a unifying message of corporate and governmental dominance in a free market.

You've got real reading comprehension problems, you know that? Oh, and for your information, child, there is no corporate and governmental dominance of a truly free market--not of the market as a whole.


You don't know what I learned in school, so fuck you too, dude.

Oh, so schools were just invented, and I didn't get fed any propaganda in mine because I'm too old to have gone to any?


And I know when you try to tell me what I appear to be, you are actually just saying I am. Old internet forum moderator skirting trick, ca 2003.

Well, saying something that makes no sense at all probably is hard for a moderator to deal with, yes.

Now, back to this book. And look for pop quizzes, dude--you promised to educate yourself if I read it, and I'm holding you to that.

[DFF]

I warn you, when you pick one from black history, there is far more tragedy than victory. It's a very, very, sad place to go.

The real tragedy for blacks is the mainstream media and people like yourself who incorrectly blame whites for everything wrong in the black community.

This has created a perpetual state of victim-hood where it's impossible for blacks to achieve anything and for none of their problems to ever be resolved. But this is what the elites want.

They want blacks to remain psychologically imprisoned, dependent on the government, and in effect, modern day slaves.

And the biggest key to the continuation of this insidious process is the perpetuation of the white racism myth, which posits that white bias and discrimination is solely to blame for all negative issues affecting blacks, rather than dealing with the true source of problems which are rooted almost exclusively within the black community itself.

[UWDude]

Look closer, and you'll see why I won't be apologizing for fighting fire with fire.

I think I'll need you to spell it out for me.


You might as well say whites and blacks were in the same boat in 1921 because both were allowed to start a small business in any number of fields with minimal regulatory obstacles in the way. And there's more than a grain of truth to that. Or did they not teach you how race was used divide and conquer, and southern whites wound up seriously poor as a direct result?

Wrong again. Black had many written and unwritten regulations in their way that white people did not have. I mean seriously, you think white people and black people had it the same in 1921? One of the worst periods in modern American history for race relations? Seriously?


Whether you're in the front of the bus or the back of the bus, the bus is still not the limousine.

White people are getting it now too, but as I said before, black people always get it worse.

[UWDude]

How did Obama get elected in your opinion?

What does that have to do with the statement I made? Just because a black man is president, that means whites have it just as hard in this country as blacks?



He seems to think nothing's really changed for blacks in this country,

I said that black people always get it harsher. I didn't say nothing has changed.

[UWDude]

The real tragedy for blacks is the mainstream media and people like yourself who incorrectly blame whites for everything wrong in the black community.


And the biggest key to the continuation of this insidious process is the perpetuation of the white racism myth, which posits that white bias and discrimination is solely to blame for all negative issues affecting blacks, rather than dealing with the true source of problems which are rooted almost exclusively within the black community itself.

I wrote a small bit about what is wrong with the black community on this thread. Maybe you should read it.


the true source of problems which are rooted almost exclusively within the black community itself.

"almost exclusively" is very vague, aka, weasel words. Some of it is the black community, and some of it is racial and cultural oppression. Neither is "almost exclusively".

However...

The history of the destruction of the black race has true generational impact and scarring. The events in black history were and are vile because they DO destroy generations of black people. You destroy communities through violence, intimidation, and the law, and eventually you will see a race demolished, much like the black race is today.

I'm just being real, by the way. A lot of people can try to point to black successes and say "nut-uh, look at him! He's black and successful!" But the fact of the matter is, although race relations have improved, the plight of the black man has in many ways gotten worse, and yes, some is self inflicted.

[acptulsa]

I think I'll need you to spell it out for me.

Just like a nine-year-old standing on a sea of toys and whining, 'There's no mess here for me to clean up!'

I don't care to take the time to rub your little nose in your shit like a naughty kitten. I'm too busy keeping up my end of this bargain and reading this book.


And the biggest key to the continuation of this insidious process is the perpetuation of the white racism myth, which posits that white bias and discrimination is solely to blame for all negative issues affecting blacks, rather than dealing with the true source of problems which are rooted almost exclusively within the black community itself.

And now the stormfront troll pops up. Great.

Folks, the truth is whites have caused a whole hell of a lot of problems for every race under the sun. Including other whites. This has been your friendly anti-stormfront sanity PSA of the day.

I'd suggest people look for the truth halfway between your two silly positions, but since neither of you can produce two honest facts in a thousand words...

[jmdrake]

Wow! This thread has taken on a life of its own.


I'll just wait for someone to post a video "If I were the Devil" from like 1960... If I were the Devil, I wouldnt do anything differently, society is bringing itself to an end by its own hand.

The thing is that the african americans that feel victimized are absolutely correct. They are being systematically targetted. What they fail to see is it isnt just blacks that are being targetted, it is every man of every color. Our muslim community of many many good people can also jusificably claim to be victimized. So can the Japanese who lived stateside during WWII. And the Germans. And the Jews. And the Native American Indians.

We need to quit trying to be white men or black men or christian men or american men, and just be men. Then we will see that it is not our differences that divide us, but those who monger the fear and hatred in each other for those same petty differences.

Correction. I'm sure you meant to say was "What [strike]they[strike] some fail to see is it isnt just blacks that are being targetted, it is every man of every color."

That's the point I was making that led to the rebuttal by the white liberal that led to me starting this thread. Yes, marginalized groups get screwed over in this country. And blacks happen to be a very noticeable marginalized group. But black people have to cast a wider vision than just what happens to black people if real change is ever going to happen.


See, there you go again. "somewhat isolated"
Violence is, was, and always has been systemic against blacks. It has never been "somewhat isolated"


I wonder what those black Tulsa businessmen got, when they went to insurance companies, and tried to claim their losses. I wonder how much money was destroyed in those days, and how much it would be in today's dollars if it had simply been put in CD's and adjusted for inflation. I wonder how many wealthy, respectable black businessmen were killed.

Where has it appeared, then? What books have you read on the subject? I say we pick one, and read it, one that deals with Black Wall Street. (I am serious by the way, I think it is time we both read a book on the subject.... ..I will not be shocked, but I am sure you will. I've read enough black history to know that the violence, intimidation, and political pressure on black America has always been more extreme than on white America, and I have read thousands of accounts of common occurrences, that would horrify anybody of the indignity, be it at the hands of police, or the State, the court system, (family, criminal or civil), or neighbors).

A blight on American History, and you suggest I make a statement that disregards the riots as part of the downfall of Black wall Street. And there is no way I will, nor will I ignore all the injustice I am sure happened in the decades after. I know it is there, and I know a book will open your eyes to how things did not exactly get better in race relations after the burning of Black Wall Street.

I don't have to read a book to know it, I don't have to. Black history has a pretty obvious pattern. But I will read a book on it, if any of you will do the same.

Yep. I'm familiar with the bombing of Tulsa and the ethnic cleansing of Rosewood and the ethnic cleansing of Forsythe Georgia and the massacre at Ft. Pillow and a lot of other really bad stuff. I also know about Booker T. Washington and George Washington Carver and Ben Carson and a lot of positive black history. And I know about oppression that has happened to people of all races. I'm glad black people are standing up against (some) police shootings. I wish we as a people would stand up and be counted more in cases that aren't chosen for us by the looters or the race hucksters or the media. It was good to see black people stand with Clive Bundy for instance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoRkmCQJewU

[UWDude]

It was always somewhat isolated, dude. If it had been as constant as the economic warfare against them was, nobody--white or black--would ever have gotten anything done for the constant violence.

That's why the small victories of black people are small, but impressive. To get through everything, and become successful like some did, especially in the age of racism, where it was a literal science, is amazing. But it has not always been "somewhat isolated" it was systemic and endemic. Don't try and tell me racism was "isolated" in the 1930's. Scientists were getting awards for writing their racist drivel that "proved" the superiority of the white man. Racists back then didn't even have to mince words. They could say whatever, and do whatever they wanted. So don't even try to tell me back in the 30's racism was just "isolated incidents". Almost every black man alive at that time could provide quite a few stories of how every single one of them was treated, anywhere, north or south.




Yes, son, that's what I said, and that 's the truth. There were insurance companies wholly owned and run by black Tulsans.

Ooh, I wonder how THEY did after. :rolleyes:

Or are you denying that there were any non-racist whites in those days--perhaps even John Brown hated anyone of African descent?


I said 10% righteous, 3% agitator. John Brown was agitator.



Hurry and catch up, I'm already halfway through the intro. Don't mind if I do. Especially if it causes you to stop talking through your ass, and maybe even helps you see how much of your 'education' is actually propaganda.

I am going to read about a pattern of abuse for decades after the riot as well. No doubt about it.


Got news--history gets lived before it gets written.

Got more news, it usually gets written by white people who lived it, not the black people.



Ha. You don't have to read a book, because some progressive propagandist talked to you about patterns, and you think you can see them. I lived those patterns, but am reading the book anyway.

No, I don't have to read a book, because I have read enough black history to see the pattern myself. I guarantee, anybody that read enough black history will see the pattern. America was racist to the core, and still is. It was founded on racism and slavery. You can read plenty of people talking about the superiority white race and the christian church. Like I said, this is not hidden, it is out there, and blatant, throughout history, until the 1970's, when it became socially unacceptable. Until then, racism was not like it is today, many saw it as a positive, and scientifically proven.



You've got real reading comprehension problems, you know that? Oh, and for your information, child, there is no corporate and governmental dominance of a truly free market--not of the market as a whole.

No, I think you have the problem.




Oh, so schools were just invented, and I didn't get fed any propaganda in mine because I'm too old to have gone to any?

I'm sorry, I didn't know you majored in history as well at a University. But of course, because you've been told, you know I got a liberal indoctrination there.

Here's a hint, guy, I didn't take African American history because I had never heard of it before I started classes. I didn't take it because I had to, ok? I had thoughts of my own, BEFORE i went to school for history, AND I did so later in life, AFTER I had witnessed quite a bit in my own lifetime.



Now, back to this book. And look for pop quizzes, dude--you promised to educate yourself if I read it, and I'm holding you to that.

I will see if my library has it on my way to work. If not, Ill check the bookstore.

[acptulsa]

Wow! This thread has taken on a life of its own.

Hope you don't mind. I actually did ask permission, back in the midst of dude's vitriol.


Yep. I'm familiar with the bombing of Tulsa...

I suspect that's a bit of an exaggeration, though one of those bright bastards might have lit a stick of dynamite and thrown it overboard--there was plenty around the oil fields. But I think it was mostly gunfire, and it's hard to say if that was aimed at blacks, white looters, or both. But it's doubtful it hit either.

In any case, I know of no aerial attack on U.S. soil before 1921.

Oh, and whoever reads the Hirsh book dude and I are reading: Take the 'not part of the Confederacy' bit in the intro with a grain of salt. Technically, yes--the Nations were the Nations--but all those tribes, being sick of Union double-dealing, fought on the side of the C.S.A. We are officially south of the Mason-Dixon.


That's why the small victories of black people are small, but impressive. To get through everything, and become successful like some did, especially in the age of racism, where it was a literal science, is amazing. But it has not always been "somewhat isolated" it was systemic and endemic. Don't try and tell me racism was "isolated" in the 1930's.

I didn't and I won't. Violence is one thing, racism is another. How could racists enslave and use the blacks if they were killing them every minute of every day? It's stupid on the face of it. And don't tell me it was universal, either--as in all whites were racist, because that's simply the most ridiculous kind of revisionist history.


No, I don't have to read a book, because I have read enough black history to see the pattern myself. I guarantee, anybody that read enough black history will see the pattern. America was racist to the core, and still is.

LOL Mr. Drake, do you think you could suggest to this child a better way to get a more firm grasp on black history...?


No, I think you have the problem.

If you're incapable of articulating what that problem is in a reasonable and rational way, then there just might be more than one problem involved.


Here's a hint, guy, I didn't take African American history because I had never heard of it before I started classes. I didn't take it because I had to, ok? I had thoughts of my own, BEFORE i went to school for history, AND I did so later in life, AFTER I had witnessed quite a bit in my own lifetime.

Well, if someone gives you a medal for it, tell them about me, because I've never studied the race riot formally or ever gotten so much as a single grade for it.


I will see if my library has it on my way to work. If not, Ill check the bookstore.

Hurry up. I'm through the intro--and would have finished chapter one by now, if I weren't so busy following you around and setting the record straight.

[DFF]

Folks, the truth is whites have caused a whole hell of a lot of problems for every race under the sun. Including other whites. This has been your friendly anti-stormfront sanity PSA of the day.

The world would be a chaotic mess without whites. 80% of all major inventions which have made life better for everyone have come from four countries: Britain, France, Germany and Italy. So, please take the "world-would-be-a-better-place-without-whites" nonsense out of here. :)

[UWDude]

Just like a nine-year-old standing on a sea of toys and whining, 'There's no mess here for me to clean up!'

I don't care to take the time to rub your little nose in your shit like a naughty kitten.

Listen to this bluster, more arrogance and rudeness, because you know damn well you are the one that started shitting like an asshole here.

I rubbed your face in it, and you have no retort.

[kcchiefs6465]

Or are you denying that there were any non-racist whites in those days--perhaps even John Brown hated anyone of African descent?
I said 10% righteous, 3% agitator. John Brown was agitator.
Why do you say that?

[Deborah K]

I said that black people always get it harsher. I didn't say nothing has changed.

You proclaimed that "America is racist to its core". I asked you how a black man got elected to the Presidency if that is true. Can you answer that?

[DamianTV]

Actually, it was a rhetorical question for the Dude. He seems to think nothing's really changed for blacks in this country, so I wanna know how we ended up with a black man for President. And yeah, he's half white, but he doesn't readily acknowledge it. So how bout it, Dude? Tell us how Obama got elected in this country that is "racist to the core"?

Oh, Im not supposed to answher rhetorical questions? :p

[acptulsa]

I rubbed your face in it, and you have no retort.

Maybe we can get some impartial opinions in here, in the event anyone cares. Perhaps you can talk Mr. Drake into adding a poll to the thread, if it's this important to you.


So, please take the "world-would-be-a-better-place-without-whites" nonsense out of here. :)

Where the fuck did that come from? I know stormfronters are famous for seeing shit that just isn't there, but this takes the cake.

danno, what did you put in the water?!

[Deborah K]

Oh, Im not supposed to answher rhetorical questions? :p

Of course you can. I was just clarifying. ;):)

[acptulsa]

O.K., Mr. Hirsch isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. He says Tulsa shouldn't have become the oil capital in the world because it only had one railroad, which is a claim he makes between talking about something that happened in 1897 (when it had two) and 1905 (when five railroads formed a junction right in Tulsa's downtown). He also says Tulsa never had any oil (though oil was pumped in Red Fork, which Tulsa has since annexed) like that's a bad thing. What wildcatter-turned-millionaire would build his mansion in the middle of a greasy, derrick-strewn mess?

I hope this thing gets better.


Got more news, it usually gets written by white people who lived it, not the black people.

Yet if it doesn't come out of that book, you have no respect for it.

Nice of you to refute your own silly arguments, dude, but I really don't need your help.

[UWDude]

Well, if someone gives you a medal for it, tell them about me, because I've never studied the race riot formally or ever gotten so much as a single grade for it.

So you've studied one riot, and now you can assure me these things were "somewhat isolated" and "there is no pattern"? I assure you, study more black history, you will see the Tulsa race riots were just one of thousands of major, debilitating injustices on the black race.




Hurry up. I'm through the intro--and would have finished chapter one by now, if I weren't so busy following you around and setting the record straight.

hold your horses, jack, I will not be picking up a copy until Friday.

[UWDude]

Maybe we can get some impartial opinions in here, in the event anyone cares. Perhaps you can talk Mr. Drake into adding a poll to the thread, if it's this important to you.


majority opinion does not make truth. Truth is, you came into this thread insulting me and being arrogant. I replied in kind.

[UWDude]

You proclaimed that "America is racist to its core". I asked you how a black man got elected to the Presidency if that is true. Can you answer that?

Yes, pointing to the success of one black man, does not mean there is not institutional racism. Millions of people love black music, but still hate blacks. Anybody can point to Michael Jackson, or Michael Jordan, or Barack Obama, or Charles Barkley and say "I like him", that doesn't mean they don't hate the race in general.

[UWDude]

Why do you say that?

Because he supplied guns to slaves and tried to start a slave rebellion?

[kcchiefs6465]

Because he supplied guns to slaves and tried to start a slave rebellion?
'Agitator' has such a negative connotation.

Perhaps, "freer," would have been more applicable?

[UWDude]

'Agitator' has such a negative connotation.

Perhaps, "freer," would have been more applicable?

"Agitator" only has negative connotations to the anti-revolutionary. Agitators like John Brown and the Jayhawks were the righteous of the righteous. The 10% righteous I refer to are those who support agitators, but do not directly put themselves or their lives, social lives, etc, in harms way. Then there are usually another 20% of silent sympathizers, who agree and see injustice, but say nothing, because they are afraid. This makes about the 33% of opinion on almost any subject that is not popular.

An interesting aside, when my professor went to Russia in 2009, (I took his classes in 2010), he went into a classroom, and they all met him by standing up singing the Hymn of John Brown, in perfect English.

[acptulsa]

majority opinion does not make truth. Truth is, you came into this thread insulting me and being arrogant. I replied in kind.

But I wasn't the first one behaving that way in this thread, though.

So if you're asking if I'm my brothers' keeper, I will say, 'Sometimes.'

[UWDude]

But I wasn't the first one behaving that way in this thread, though.

So if you're asking if I'm my brothers' keeper, I will say, 'Sometimes.'

White knight to the rescue of the white hooded knight! How noble of you!

[Origanalist]

"Agitator" only has negative connotations to the anti-revolutionary. Agitators like John Brown and the Jayhawks were the righteous of the righteous. The 10% righteous I refer to are those who support agitators, but do not directly put themselves or their lives, social lives, etc, in harms way. Then there are usually another 20% of silent sympathizers, who agree and see injustice, but say nothing, because they are afraid. This makes about the 33% of opinion on almost any subject that is not popular.

An interesting aside, when my professor went to Russia in 2009, (I took his classes in 2010), he went into a classroom, and they all met him by standing up singing the Hymn of John Brown, in perfect English.

I hear they are really good at gymnastics too.

[acptulsa]

White knight to the rescue of the white hooded knight! How noble of you!

Oh? Now why don't you just say outright which of the people you were being obnoxious to you're accusing of Klan membership?

Go ahead. Name the name and get yourself banned. Don't hold back.

[Origanalist]

Oh? Now why don't you just say outright which of the people you were being obnoxious to you're accusing of Klan membership?

Go ahead. Name the name and get yourself banned. Don't hold back.

He will, it's the Seattle way.

[UWDude]

Oh? Now why don't you just say outright which of the people you were being obnoxious to you're accusing of Klan membership?

Go ahead. Name the name and get yourself banned. Don't hold back.

You need a better hobby.

[acptulsa]

You need a better hobby.

You don't know what my hobbies are. What manner of brainwashing was it that convinced you that you know how good they are?

[acptulsa]

Well, Hirsch did a pretty decent job, based on what I have read so far. Of course, like more than a few historians he considers previous publication of tall tales as proof that they're fact. And he's awfully good at not listening to himself.

He spends most of a chapter telling how small Tulsa was at first, then says Ida Glenn's farm was twelve miles south of Tulsa. And so it is, now that Tulsa's city limits are a good ten miles farther south than they were back then, when it was over twenty miles from Tulsa. Not only did a surveyor, and not the city engineer or the city council, name the streets alphabetically after cities (by his reckoning, but no one else's), but then the developers of the Greenwood district named Greenwood Ave.--even though it fits the pattern and the alphabet, and extends out of the Greenwood District, across the tracks, and into the south side. No whites lived on the north side and no oilmen built mansions there, even though he admits that the Greenwood district was bordered by Detroit Ave. and the city boasted houses north of the tracks for another mile farther west, and I can show you some mighty impressive old, surviving houses in that area. And in chapter two, he says that this area, which he clearly says was bounded by Detroit and Greenwood (four blocks apart, as anyone who knows his ABCs could figure) and by Archer and Pine Streets (right at a mile apart) covered four square miles.

If you have doubts about any of these checked facts, I'm sure mapquest can help you out...

He also says Booker T. Washington High School was moved to Haskell St., when it was moved to Pine St. And Greenwood Ave., a site now occupied by George W. Carver Middle School (I am an alumnus of both schools). And he says Mt. Zion Church was located on Elgin St. [sic] when it still stands (having been rebuilt several times within the same brick walls) on Greenwood Ave, not Elgin Ave.

Which gives us some idea of his attention to detail. So I'll stop filling this thread with inconsistencies which don't affect the narrative.

[heavenlyboy34]

It's not black and white.

It's blue vs. us.

Thread winnar. Blacks were just for practice in the good ol' 20th century. Now it's everyone's turn. :( :mad:

[Deborah K]

Yes, pointing to the success of one black man, does not mean there is not institutional racism. Millions of people love black music, but still hate blacks. Anybody can point to Michael Jackson, or Michael Jordan, or Barack Obama, or Charles Barkley and say "I like him", that doesn't mean they don't hate the race in general.

The success of one black man????? He's the President of the United States of America!!! ffs! That's a tad different than an athlete. Your argument that "America is racist to the core" is ridiculous. And you've further proven it by dismissing the fact that a black man is President of this so-called racist America. Your college-educated and washed brain has deluded your ability to think rationally about the problem of race in this country.

[UWDude]

The success of one black man????? He's the President of the United States of America!!! ffs! That's a tad different than an athlete. Your argument that "America is racist to the core" is ridiculous. And you've further proven it by dismissing the fact that a black man is President of this so-called racist America. Your college-educated and washed brain has deluded your ability to think rationally about the problem of race in this country.

Nut uh. yer brainwershed!

[Deborah K]

Nut uh. yer brainwershed!

LOL!!! +rep

[ExPatPaki]

I have never considered Obama to be black or African-American in the conventional sense. Only those who have African slaves brought to America in their ancestral line are 'black' or 'African-American'. Obama is the son of a white woman from Kansas and a father who was a subject of British administered Kenya.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

This is why I differ with "bleeding-heart" and "left-libertarians". I see that a forum dedicated to Ron Paul has people spewing the cultural Marxist narrative about "white supremacist culture" and "systemic racism". There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the problems that face the black community today are because of racism, or a "legacy of slavery" or any of that leftist hogwash. Is there a long litany of crimes committed against the black community? Sure. Does some very unsavory stuff happen even today? Yeah. Is that why blacks are in the situation they're in now? There is not any good reason to think so. Leftism infects everything it touches, and it is infecting libertarianism by injecting it with anti-white, anti-male cultural Marxism. If you care about the movement, do not let this happen. It will destroy everything that we've built and all that we might someday build.

[acptulsa]

This is why I differ with "bleeding-heart" and "left-libertarians". I see that a forum dedicated to Ron Paul has people spewing the cultural Marxist narrative about "white supremacist culture" and "systemic racism". There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the problems that face the black community today are because of racism, or a "legacy of slavery" or any of that leftist hogwash. Is there a long litany of crimes committed against the black community? Sure. Does some very unsavory stuff happen even today? Yeah. Is that why blacks are in the situation they're in now? There is not any good reason to think so. Leftism infects everything it touches, and it is infecting libertarianism by injecting it with anti-white, anti-male cultural Marxism. If you care about the movement, do not let this happen. It will destroy everything that we've built and all that we might someday build.

We value individuals here. Few among us give a damn about demographics.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

We value individuals here. Few among us give a damn about demographics.
Individualism is fantastic, but demographics are important, especially with the narratives at play in the halls of the Cathedral. Ignore them at your own risk.

[acptulsa]

Individualism is fantastic, but demographics are important, especially with the narratives at play in the halls of the Cathedral. Ignore them at your own risk.

Can't ignore them, not while msnbc is stirring the pot all the time.

Still don't give a shit about them. Give a shit about who's helping msnbc stir the pot. But couldn't care less about demographics where an individual is concerned.

[UWDude]

So it is not at my local branch or Barnes and Noble. So I will pick it up Wed or Thur when I go to downtown Seattle. I expect I'll be done by Monday.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Can't ignore them, not while msnbc is stirring the pot all the time.

Still don't give a shit about them. Give a shit about who's helping msnbc stir the pot. But couldn't care less about demographics where an individual is concerned.
If MSNBCS disappeared tomorrow demographics would still be of paramount importance; race differences matter, sexual dimorphism matters, culture matters. All of these things are very serious issues necessary to tackle head on, just not for the reasons leftists have been spewing ad nauseum.

[acptulsa]

So far (about halfway through) I'm pretty impressed with Riot and Remembrance. Hirsch wrote it well, his style is almost rollicking, and the pace is rapid and the tales engaging. He continues with his flagrant disregard of geography. Fires rage in parts of town (like West Archer) where they simply didn't happen, whole churches get moved blocks away, east-west 'streets' turn into north-south 'avenues', some towns were only as far away from the small Tulsa of the day as they do from the many times larger Tulsa of today, east-west rail lines like the M-K-T (the Katy) suddenly turn and run north and south, and confusion not only persists about whether Greenwood was an avenue, a district or a town, but it grows and shrinks and still manages never to find its true size. Thus we find abut a third of a square mile is four square miles in one chapter and two square miles a few chapters later. And he packs a population of then thousand into it as well, which certainly opens him to the charge of spinning tall tales. Furthermore, he places the vast majority of the black males in the role of porter and females in the role of domestic, which is hardly the way North Greenwood Ave. became the 'Black Wall St. of America'. Black men did work as roughnecks on the rigs of certain oil companies.

This makes it hard not to turn a skeptical eye on the other aspects of his storytelling. But this would be a mistake. As little regard as Hirsch seems to have for the ground that serves as the setting for this tale, he does a fair enough job of imitating a serious historic researcher in other aspects that I've come to believe him to be one--and impressed that his blind spots are few. He doesn't report certain things that Tulsans once took as fact, but which cannot be confirmed, like the exact nature of the incident in the elevator which sparked the oily rags of discontent, and the exact nature of the aerial assaults, if any.

I find the book a good read and am convinced the fact far, far outweighs the fiction, and if anyone else was thinking of making a book club out of this, I say you could do worse than read this book--and almost certainly have done, too.

[CaptainAmerica]

Divide and conquer....there are those like al sharpton trying to divide the races because when people unite against police brutality it will have to come to a hault

[acptulsa]

Divide and conquer....there are those like al sharpton trying to divide the races because when people unite against police brutality it will have to come to a hault

The riot in question is unquestionably a case of divide and conquer tactics--perpetuated by powers that be and their pet yellow journalism rag, the Tulsa Tribune--gone completely out of control.

By the way, that rag's muckracker publisher, Richard Lloyd Jones, was a cousin of Frank Lloyd Wright. Our only Wright house (named Westhope) was built for him during the Depression, as a sort of family welfare program.

[anaconda]

So......why would some white person think I didn't know about police brutality happening more to black people? :confused:


I am white. But if I were an African American, I might be afraid that if the discussion strays too far from racism towards minorities, that the disparity will continue and the more general notion that racism still exists will be quietly tabled by the main stream establishment. I suspect many African Americans have seized upon the horror of these incidences, in part, to vent a more overarching rage against racism and economic disparity. Furthermore, even if cops suddenly tomorrow became law abiding professionals, we would still find our prisons disproportionately populated with minorities. So the issue may be larger than simply the cops are murderous thugs that disobey the law without reprisal from the system - white people's problem with the cops is more of a subset of African Americans' problems with the cops.

Having said this, these comments underscore a missed opportunity to build a larger alliance against the police state. People like Rand might do well to advance the narrative that there are, indeed, TWO problems - 1) cops are lawless thugs in a corrupt system, and 2) the cops target minorities for arrests. White people have the first problem but blacks have both problems.

Perhaps the people commenting on that article felt that the racial component was being mitigated by your germane and otherwise potentially useful comment. Now that I think about this, I'll bet very few of the African American segment of the protesters are thinking much about the Orwellian rise of the police state the way Ron Paul Forum people do - 99% of them are probably thinking that the cops and the system are are racist and out to get them because of their race. Probably most of the white protesters are thinking of it as a mainly a race issue.

[anaconda]

And now the lecture from the white liberal.

Jane Spurrier Brock · Top Commenter
John Drake - sure, that happens occasionally, but it happens to[B] people of YOUR race much more often...


One more curious thing - I think this person seems to be implying you are black. I don't know if you are or not, but I was wondering why this individual assumed you were?

[DFF]

"There's still racism in America."

Ever heard this before? Probably a billion times, huh? Well, I've got a secret I'd like to share: there has always been "racism" in the world since the dawn of time. In-groups excluding out-groups.

This is why European, African, Asian, Hispanic, Arab, Jewish, and so forth, even exist.

Without racial preference, all of these people, that is, you and I, would have died long ago, and ironically, no one would be here to bitch endlessly about how much racism there is in the world.

The truth is, much to the liberals chagrin, is that there will always be in-groups which exclude out-groups. This tendency, for better, or for worse, is not going anywhere. Ever. Because it's not learned behavior, it's hardwired in our DNA for the specific purpose of survival.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

"There's still racism in America."

Ever heard this before? Probably a billion times, huh? Well, I've got a secret I'd like to share: there has always been "racism" in the world. In-groups excluding out-groups.

This is why European, African, Asian, Hispanic, Arab, Jewish, and so forth, even exist.

Without racial preference, all of these people, that is, you and I, would have died long ago, and ironically, no one would be here to bitch endlessly about how much racism there is in the world.

The truth is, much to the liberals chagrin, is that there will always be in-groups which exclude out-groups. This tendency is not going anywhere. Ever. Because it's not learned behavior, it's hardwired in our DNA for the specific purpose of survival.
Liberal: *Puts fingers in ears* "La la la la I can't hear you la la la diversity is a strength la la la race doesn't exist la la la white supremacy la la la..."

[specsaregood]

Liberal: *Puts fingers in ears* "La la la la I can't hear you la la la diversity is a strength la la la race doesn't exist la la la white supremacy la la la..."

Its the reptilians you really need to worry about.

[acptulsa]

Without racial preference, all of these people, that is, you and I, would have died long ago, and ironically, no one would be here to bitch endlessly about how much racism there is in the world.

That's one hell of a claim. I suppose it would be too much trouble to back that up.

[James Madison]

That's one hell of a claim. I suppose it would be too much trouble to back that up.

It's more likely that human beings exposed to different selective pressures develop adaptations to thrive in those environments.

[PRB]

So......why would some white person think I didn't know about police brutality happening more to black people? :confused:

If you know, what's the problem? Nobody is denying that every person is vulnerable and every noticeable population has been a victim, so the question is "do they all become victims equally"?

[acptulsa]

If you know, what's the problem?

I believe the gentleman was stunned and amazed to have various white liberals lecturing him on the subject. I would have been as well, had I seen it happening.


Nobody is denying that every person is vulnerable and every noticeable population has been a victim, so the question is "do they all become victims equally"?

I can't say I see how that became "the question." My experience indicates the answer is no. But I can think of many other questions besides that one, several of which are more pertinent to this topic.

And as for Mr. Stormfront...


That's one hell of a claim. I suppose it would be too much trouble to back that up.

...yeah I suspected as much.

[PRB]

I believe the gentleman was stunned and amazed to have various white liberals lecturing him on the subject. I would have been as well, had I seen it happening.



I can't say I see how that became "the question." My experience indicates the answer is no. But I can think of many other questions besides that one, several of which are more pertinent to this topic.

fair enough, thanks :)

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

If you know, what's the problem? Nobody is denying that every person is vulnerable and every noticeable population has been a victim, so the question is "do they all become victims equally"?


Libs of your ilk do, in fact, deny that every person is vulnerable. Their claims of victimization are not equal.

[acptulsa]

If MSNBCS disappeared tomorrow demographics would still be of paramount importance; race differences matter, sexual dimorphism matters, culture matters. All of these things are very serious issues necessary to tackle head on, just not for the reasons leftists have been spewing ad nauseum.

I'll tell you once more, before I put you in the same category as DFF: Individuals matter. Nothing matters to a real libertarian more.


If you allow people's anger and hatred to consume you, it will.

Not me.

[acptulsa]

fair enough, thanks :)

Now, care to explain to me what your libtard 'individuals don't count and the squeakiest race gets the grease' attitude is doing for the grieving family of this man?


https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10429483_10152936453203189_8144471234612294275_n.p ng?oh=6e8038b619cf92c03fb69666d31c3de8&oe=554646F7&__gda__=1426856218_d3792c6e6496c1830ee8a1426ecaee5 2

READ MORE >> http://bit.ly/1BqILw0

And thank you.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

I'll tell you once more, before I put you in the same category as DFF: Individuals matter. Nothing matters to a real libertarian more.


I'm not sure what being "put in the same category as DFF" would entail, but of course individuals matter. Nothing I said contradicts that fact. I am an individualist, and an anarcho-capitalist. In the hierarchy of values, the individual tops the list for me. That doesn't mean that other things can't also matter, however.

[pcosmar]

So......why would some white person think I didn't know about police brutality happening more to black people? :confused:

Well,, it was some time after becoming one of my favorite posters here,, that you mentioned your darker complexion

:o

I could not tell from your posts.
.

[acptulsa]

By the way, for anyone trying to read the book and confused by 'Sunset Hill', either because they know Tulsa or because they also see references to Standpipe Hill and wonder just how many damned tall hills we can have in one mile of a Plains city, he's talking about Standpipe Hill. I've never heard it called 'Sunset Hill' before; its sure a long way from Sunset Blvd. and the Sunset Addition.

Standpipe Hill is an integral part of this story, being on the west edge of Greenwood Ave. exactly halfway between the old business district at Archer and the big school campus at Pine. The whole area was inhabited predominately by blacks when I was young, and has suffered from 'urban removal'. I still remember old two story frame corner houses built on that hill that had front doors facing side streets and driveways around the side that led directly to basement garages. That's how steep it is. Of course, when those houses were built detached garages were the norm and I thought those basement garages were pretty neat. Of course, they're all gone now. The east side of the hill, which faced Greenwood Ave., had gone to seed long before I was born. I can only imagine how they stuffed little houses in around and above each other on there, aided by an old map or two I've seen.

Detroit Ave roughly bisects that hill, after leading up from a handy entrance to the 'Colored Waiting Room' of the old Union Depot. Of course, the art deco depot was yet a gleam in the eyes of the city fathers when the riot happened. But it was a happening place, Depression or no. And that door was a handy place to catch a Sunset Cab, which was another black-owned business.

By the way, Gap Band fans will be interested to learn that, in their case, Gap is an acronym for Greenwood Archer Project. By then the Greenwood District proper was mostly abandoned, but still stood as a sort of a symbol for all of North Tulsa. Though when I went to Carver (at the other end of the Greenwood District at Greenwood and Pine), I was interested to learn that several of my black classmates had no idea that this was the name of that street, or that it was ever so famous.

The second half of the book is mostly about lifting the curtain of secrecy and the pursuit of reparations, and just when you're convinced Hirsch has decided to abandon one side of the narrative in favor of the other, the next chapter provides balance. Not too bad. I'm glad he wrote it.

[acptulsa]

And just when I've decided I like the guy, he goes over the top. He says North Tulsa has 'no large grocery stores' and 'no family restaurants, save one heavily populated McDonald's'. But Warehouse Market does have one sufficiently sizeable store on North Sheridan (though in a long-integrated neighborhood) and one on North Peoria, which is technically half a mile outside of Tulsa in the unincorporated Turley, but unquestionably part of the North Tulsa community. It also has several family restaurants, including the longstanding Wilson's Barbeque, which is my favorite barbeque in all the state and where I take family as often as I can.

He also continues to mix up the Greenwood District and the whole of North Tulsa, if not in his own mind then in his reader's minds. Greenwood, hemmed in by railroads, expressways, industries and the new university, does indeed continue to be bereft of private investment. But the whole of the north side does not.

There is a great deal of room for improvement. A great deal. But his misleading statements in the final chapter are dishonest, and worse, not at all helpful.

He also says that there are still driveways that lead nowhere and attributes them to the riot. None of those have anything to do with the riot. Those led to houses that were built, served their purpose, and were knocked down or fell down in the ninety years since. Why does he say there were no paved streets in one chapter and then say there are paved driveways still abandoned in a later chapter?

Damn, why do people have to spoil their own good work? I hope we can all learn from this mistake as we wax eloquent in our quest of liberty for all. It doesn't matter how perfect a case you build in the first 320 pages. If you succumb to the temptation to let the truth take a back seat to your desire to propagandize on page 321, you stand to lose everything you worked for.

Keep it honest. The truth is generally sufficient, and always undeniable in the end.

That said, I'll make one more observation which has nothing to do with the book (which has a strong ending, by the way). All this begging and pleading for reparations, it seems to me, is in no way as reaffirming as rebuilding Greenwood in the face of all opposition must have been to the blacks who did it back in 1921-22. To be reduced from potential entrepreneurs to beggars at the knees of the powers that be is no improvement. This isn't what Hirsch wrote the book for us to take away from the tale, but I take that away from it. And just as the state of race relations reached the point where blacks could truly regain that freedom and entrepreneurial opportunity that desegregation took away from them, the opportunity to be entrepreneurial was taken away from all of us by this 'regulation without representation' corporatocracy. In the case of us whites, that's very sad. In the case of the blacks who were on the verge of being able to build Greenwoods that actually could rise to challenge the real Wall Street, the added irony makes it twice as bad.

In case you forgot what we're fighting for here.

[jmdrake]

The success of one black man????? He's the President of the United States of America!!! ffs! That's a tad different than an athlete. Your argument that "America is racist to the core" is ridiculous. And you've further proven it by dismissing the fact that a black man is President of this so-called racist America. Your college-educated and washed brain has deluded your ability to think rationally about the problem of race in this country.

In 2008 when sign waving for Ron Paul I met a white Hillary supporter who was sign waving for Hillary. This irritating witch kept asking me "Why doesn't Ron Paul drop out and endorse Hillary?" I guess she thought anyone who was anti war had to be liberal. Anyway I told her they supported different things. She kept pushing to ask why. I said "Well for one thing he is anti abortion." She looked like I had just shot her dog. Then she said "He can't have control of my body!" I expected that. But the next thing she said shocked me. "If there were more abortions there wouldn't be so many people in prison." Huh? As you well know blacks are over represented in prison. So basically she as saying more black people needed to be aborted. Oh, she added that she had a out of wedlock birth but she was "responsible." Am I wrong for thinking this liberal democrat who probably ended up voting for Obama was also racist?

[jmdrake]

One more curious thing - I think this person seems to be implying you are black. I don't know if you are or not, but I was wondering why this individual assumed you were?

I posted my comment using my Facebook and she could see my picture.

[jmdrake]

"There's still racism in America."

Ever heard this before? Probably a billion times, huh? Well, I've got a secret I'd like to share: there has always been "racism" in the world since the dawn of time. In-groups excluding out-groups.

This is why European, African, Asian, Hispanic, Arab, Jewish, and so forth, even exist.

Without racial preference, all of these people, that is, you and I, would have died long ago, and ironically, no one would be here to bitch endlessly about how much racism there is in the world.

The truth is, much to the liberals chagrin, is that there will always be in-groups which exclude out-groups. This tendency, for better, or for worse, is not going anywhere. Ever. Because it's not learned behavior, it's hardwired in our DNA for the specific purpose of survival.

I agree with everything you said except your last point. Racism is not hardwired in our DNA. My proof? U.S. history. The first miscegenation laws occurred when the white power structure noticed indentured white servants and black slaves were getting a little to close for comfort. Racism is a way for power structures to keep people divided and controllable. And it's being used in more subtle ways now. Because black "leaders" concentrate only on police brutality when it happens to blacks, and then only in certain cases, some why people dismiss police brutality in general and just "black people whining again." I heard one white woman say "My son resisted arrest and they bashed his head in" implying that whatever happens to any suspect who "resists arrest" is okay.

[Deborah K]

In 2008 when sign waving for Ron Paul I met a white Hillary supporter who was sign waving for Hillary. This irritating witch kept asking me "Why doesn't Ron Paul drop out and endorse Hillary?" I guess she thought anyone who was anti war had to be liberal. Anyway I told her they supported different things. She kept pushing to ask why. I said "Well for one thing he is anti abortion." She looked like I had just shot her dog. Then she said "He can't have control of my body!" I expected that. But the next thing she said shocked me. "If there were more abortions there wouldn't be so many people in prison." Huh? As you well know blacks are over represented in prison. So basically she as saying more black people needed to be aborted. Oh, she added that she had a out of wedlock birth but she was "responsible." Am I wrong for thinking this liberal democrat who probably ended up voting for Obama was also racist?

The only person who can answer that is her. Your assumption though, is predicated on her actually knowing the demographics of the inmate population nationwide. While I am aware, as you pointed out, of the over representation of blacks in the prison system - she may not be. And since you didn't ask her, we'll never know for sure. All I know, is that it makes no sense at all to me how someone who is racist would vote for Obama. She may just be someone who lives her life trying to be politically correct - all while being politically ignorant.

[James Madison]

I agree with everything you said except your last point. Racism is not hardwired in our DNA.

Actual racism? Probably not.

What passes for racism in the minds of liberal dipshits? Oh, yes, definitely.

[jmdrake]

The only person who can answer that is her. Your assumption though, is predicated on her actually knowing the demographics of the inmate population nationwide. While I am aware, as you pointed out, of the over representation of blacks in the prison system - she may not be. And since you didn't ask her, we'll never know for sure. All I know, is that it makes no sense at all to me how someone who is racist would vote for Obama. She may just be someone who lives her life trying to be politically correct - all while being politically ignorant.

I forgot to mention that she claimed to be a sociologist. So unless she was lying, it's impossible that she didn't know about the demographics of the inmate system. I believe that people sometimes rise above their own personal prejudice when some other factor is more important. Think about the religious conservatives who voiced concern about Romney being Mormon but then ultimately endorsed him. Since this particular woman was so gung ho on abortion, I couldn't see her ever voting for McCain/Palin over Obama/Biden. She might have stayed home and not voted though. That said, I do agree with your overall premise that America is not "racist to the core" and the election Obama is evidence of that.

[Deborah K]

Actual racism? Probably not.

What passes for racism in the minds of liberal dipshits? Oh, yes, definitely.

I agree with this as well. And not only that, but when you raise children without distinguishing someone by skin color, they won't. I remember a few years ago when my oldest grandson was about 4, we were watching a movie and there was a black man and a white man in a boat. He asked me a question about one of them and I needed him to tell me which was he was referring to, and he said: "The bald one." Which, happened to be the black man. lol

[acptulsa]

Well, dude? Learn anything?

[UWDude]

The book is being shipped to my local branch. It will be here in 3 or 4 days they said. I will read it, and believe you me, you will get a full write up of my impressions of the book.

And thank you for reading it, acptulsa. There is no way I will let you read a book alone. :)

[Ender]

I agree with this as well. And not only that, but when you raise children without distinguishing someone by skin color, they won't. I remember a few years ago when my oldest grandson was about 4, we were watching a movie and there was a black man and a white man in a boat. He asked me a question about one of them and I needed him to tell me which was he was referring to, and he said: "The bald one." Which, happened to be the black man. lol

I agree with you- your grandson sounds like I was as a child. ;)

I was raised w/o prejudice and was amazed and disgusted when I encountered it in my friends. As a 13 year old, I walked out of a party because of the racist dialog that was being thrown around; I couldn't fathom why someone would hate someone else because of skin color.

I still can't.

[UWDude]

got the book today, reading now.

[acptulsa]

Good. Maybe these will help.

Archer and Greenwood looking north. All of these buildings but one date back to the rebuilding era. All were abandoned when I was a kid except the buff brick building with large square entrances up the block; that was the home of the community newsweekly The Tulsa Eagle, and is now an entrance to the baseball park which was recently built behind. The building on the end isn't square because the M-K-T used to have tracks that angled up that way. This was the main business district. Contemporary accounts report that a machine gun was set up on this very spot during the riot.

http://i.imgur.com/mANtcBvl.jpg

http://imgur.com/M1DepH2l.jpg

The memorial

http://imgur.com/UsbExzml.jpg

http://imgur.com/8ZP25bpl.jpg

The sole survivor (sort of, as a burned out brick shell). It was not yet complete when the riot burned all but the brick walls. It was finally completed in 1928.

http://imgur.com/VepUUUrl.jpg

Standpipe Hill. Oklahoma State University seems to have thought we needed a new brick "standpipe". What the author calls Sunset Hill is just to the left; most Tulsans consider them one and the same hill.

http://imgur.com/mritNLml.jpg

Looking south from the monument toward the business district, one can see how completely the highway bisected and dissected the area. The highway retaining walls are decorated for the old Juneteenth Jazz Celebration.

http://imgur.com/FX94g0jl.jpg

Looking across Greenwood at Standpipe (or Sunset, if you prefer) Hill, about a half mile north of Archer St. Once covered with houses and shanties, the flora has taken over now. This spot has looked like this my whole life. I was amazed the first time I saw an old city street map and saw streets on it. About the only clue left that this spot was once inhabited is the terracing--there are flat spots where the houses used to be.

http://imgur.com/jaH5Ovsl.jpg

Looking the opposite direction (east) from the same spot, the rail yard can be seen. The book calls it both the Midland Valley and the Santa Fe yard. And so it was; the MV yard (where the tank cars are) was two tracks wide and right beside the Santa Fe's more extensive facility.

http://imgur.com/f2aFNp1l.jpg

[acptulsa]

Looking south past the Mt. Vernon Church in the left center middle ground; the highway is just past that and the old business district is beyond the highway. The buildings on the right are part of the fairly new state university complex. Before that was built, Greenwood was more straight along this line of sight.

http://i.imgur.com/vEekAEgl.jpg

These ranch style houses were originally built on slabs in a flood zone. After flooding a couple of times, they were cut in half, moved nearly ten miles across town and placed on foundations up Greenwood. This is one of the few instances where the Tulsa urban renewal of the 1970s involved something more than "urban removal". This is about Marshall and Greenwood, near the north end of the burned zone and a stone's throw from where Booker T Washington High School stood at Pine (now the site of Carver Middle School). This end of the Greenwood District was residential even in 1921, and came back after the riot (unlike the difficult terrain of the east face of Standpipe Hill). But by 1978, the 1922 era houses were old and many were run down.

http://i.imgur.com/nGd74qIl.jpg

More typical examples of "urban removal", though this neighborhood was white in 1921, and while on Standpipe Hill, was not burned. It was west of the affected area. These houses were torn down in the 1970s and it made me sad. They were a mix of neat old two story frame and flagstone houses with tall ceilings and wide porches. Perhaps the revival of the north end of downtown (now called the Brady Arts District) will lead to some construction in this area.

http://i.imgur.com/4lsv6bZl.jpg

Mt. Zion Church, the new building, a few blocks away from Greenwood, which is just past the billboard on the right.

http://i.imgur.com/2lN1AP1l.jpg

From the highway, just north of the old business district, looking north by northeast. Standpipe ('Sunset') Hill is just out of the shot to the left (due north). Everything you see here but the rail yards burned in 1921 (clear to the horizon nearly a mile distant, in the left half of the picture), though the walls of the Mt. Vernon Church did not fall.

http://i.imgur.com/dXo9cqVl.jpg

[UWDude]

So I finished the riot, and got a little into the aftermath, and this is the kind of stuff that agonizes me, because I know instances of justice will be few and far between. Right now, nice words and apologies are being offered by the whites, but I know it will turn bitter again.

The two classes I took were Modern African American history, and African Americans in the west. A nice nexus that is re-igniting the web of information I have up here.

I have some things to say, so far:
1. I think the trail of tears demonstrates something. For every tale of racism against any non black, there is always far more heinous against black. It is hardly ever even mentioned in history books that 3 tribes (Cree, Chickasa and Choctaw, IIRC) had actual plantation slavery, and had to pack their slaves with them, who of course, suffered the worst on the trail of tears.

2. Western African American history has a different flavor. It was the west, and there was a lot more freedom. Keep this in mind, it is a little better than the central north and northest of America, better than the south, but it was good nowhere. Also, keep in mind, The Tulsa race riots were the worst in American history, in terms of casualties, but race riots were far, far more common than today, or even the sixties. Big difference was race riots usually were started by white aggression, and certainly were full of white on black violence. An interesting side note, is blacks participated in race riots against the Chinese in California, but this was very rare.

3. There is still a bust of a Governor in Nebraska, of a very racist man, who was still being praised by the press in the 80's and 90's. Of course, The United States and Britain were the sole supporters of South African Apartheid in 1984, so this is not surprising to me. Many racist figures, considered great men in American history have had their racism obscured. Say what you will about whether it was right or wrong, or acceptable or unacceptable by society at the time, black people still lived with the reality of it, every day. I think they gave up on trying to get white people to love them in about the 1990's, although the movement to divorce themselves from white society began in the sixties and seventies.

4. I remember my professor talking about how desegregation hurt "black Wall Street". Memories are coming back. I found, when writing my term paper on a topic about Nation Of Islam, it mentioned how Nation of Islam opposed forced desegregation, as did many black community members and parents. It's a danger to group everybody as one thought process, because you have labeled them in your mind. It is a quick way to alienation, which leads to hostility, which leads back to bigotry and racism.

5. Narratives of lynchings, and why they happened, in world lexicon, goes something like this:
Black man raped white woman, black man got hung.
In reality, lynchings happened all the time, sometimes 20 or 30 a year, sometimes 100's a year, and they happened for a variety of stated reasons. I think there may be a feeling that most black men lynched were guilty of raping or trying to rape a white woman. In reality, they were almost always innocent of it. But most terrifying of all, and I know that the worst is yet to come in this book too, there never is a shred of justice for lynchings. Hardly ever even a semblence of an investigation.
Sound familiar?
Narratives of cop shooting black man goes something like this:
Cop tries to arrest black man for crime, black man resists, cop shoots black man.
In reality, cop shootings happen all the time.....

[acptulsa]

4. I remember my professor talking about how desegregation hurt "black Wall Street". Memories are coming back. I found, when writing my term paper on a topic about Nation Of Islam, it mentioned how Nation of Islam opposed forced desegregation, as did many black community members and parents. It's a danger to group everybody as one thought process, because you have labeled them in your mind. It is a quick way to alienation, which leads to hostility, which leads back to bigotry and racism.

You don't hear them on the MSM, or at least not often, because their facts don't fit the Official Narrative, but many an educator of color was dismayed at the Brown v. Board decision because they knew it would take education out of the hands of minorities and it would be decades before minorities would again exert as much control over the education of anyone. Yes, it got them farther in the end, but from the perspective of sixty years ago, the past sixty years must have promised to be bleak, indeed. And so they were.

And now that people of minorities have broken all the glass ceilings, even the White House, Washington runs everything and all local officials can do is exert influence in how local organizations jump through the hoops.

Next time your prof strays off the politically correct narrative, remember it. There are only so many people who can remind you of the Secret But Important Facts. Seeing how political correctness creates an alienation-hostility-racism feedback loop kind of gives you a new perspective on 'acceptable censorship', doesn't it?


5. Narratives of lynchings, and why they happened, in world lexicon, goes something like this:
Black man raped white woman, black man got hung.
In reality, lynchings happened all the time, sometimes 20 or 30 a year, sometimes 100's a year, and they happened for a variety of stated reasons. I think there may be a feeling that most black men lynched were guilty of raping or trying to rape a white woman. In reality, they were almost always innocent of it. But most terrifying of all, and I know that the worst is yet to come in this book too, there never is a shred of justice for lynchings. Hardly ever even a semblence of an investigation.
Sound familiar?
Narratives of cop shooting black man goes something like this:
Cop tries to arrest black man for crime, black man resists, cop shoots black man.
In reality, cop shootings happen all the time.....

Being a student of history has prepared me for the present, where everyone equally gets treated the way blacks were then. Of all the ways we could have achieved equality, this is my least favorite method. And you can no more convince the rednecks they're being treated like ni**ers now than you could tell their fathers that if we continued to allow certain people to be treated that way, everyone would be treated like that someday...

Cognitive dissonance. They don't shoot their oppressor, they shoot the messenger.


'Everybody is running around in circles, announcing that somebody's pinched their liberty. Now the greatest aid that I know of that anyone could give the world today would be a correct definition of "liberty". What might be one class's liberty might be another class's poison. I guess absolute liberty couldn't mean anything but that anybody can do anything they want to, any time they want to. Well, any half-wit can tell you that wouldn't work. So the question arises, "How much liberty can I get away with?"

'Well, you can get no more liberty than you give. That's my definition, but you got perfect liberty to work out your own.'--Will Rogers

By the way, you've already heard about McNulty Park, and will later hear about Oaklawn Cemetary. Here is Oaklawn today, about a mile south of Archer and Greenwood and two miles south of Pine and Greenwood. McNulty was, ninety-four years ago, just across the highway. So, it seems likely that the mass grave is just beneath and behind that fat concrete retaining wall in the middle distance.

http://imgur.com/yulZQ5Ml.jpg

[UWDude]

Finally finished today.
Same story as any other African American history story
White people kill and abuse black people
Black people say nothing out of fear
50 years later, some black intellectuals say something
white people get worked up into an angry froth
Nothing happens. Maybe a memorial or a bill admiting "mistakes were made"

I'll take this quote, to explain why America is still racist to the core, you can find it on page 218:

When a white interviewer suggested that race relations had improved since the 1950's, he leaned forward and glared. "How in the hell can you tell me that?" He demanded. "You know, you talk about privilege and entitlement. the biggest entitlement white folks have is being white. Break that for me... ...I mean it don't make sense to me, the white folks' attitude, that somehow I ought to be appreciative that you don't hate me as much. that's the progress. Once you would physically kill me, and I have evidence of that. Now you just choke me to death economically, politically, and socially, and you want me to say that's progress from dying! 'Because you sonofabitch you, we coulda killed your black ass' that's what you're telling me. But now we let you live, and I'm proud of that progress. White folks let me live. Until I get the same entitlement irrespective of skin color, fuck you... ...but I love you>"

[acptulsa]

When a white interviewer suggested that race relations had improved since the 1950's, he leaned forward and glared. "How in the hell can you tell me that?" He demanded. "You know, you talk about privilege and entitlement. the biggest entitlement white folks have is being white. Break that for me... ...I mean it don't make sense to me, the white folks' attitude, that somehow I ought to be appreciative that you don't hate me as much. that's the progress. Once you would physically kill me, and I have evidence of that. Now you just choke me to death economically, politically, and socially, and you want me to say that's progress from dying! 'Because you sonofabitch you, we coulda killed your black ass' that's what you're telling me. But now we let you live, and I'm proud of that progress. White folks let me live. Until I get the same entitlement irrespective of skin color, fuck you... ...but I love you>"

You think that's the whole story, do you? There's no aspect of whites the system is breaking being told, but it's fine, or at least it could be worse, because they're white?

There's no aspect of a prophesy of doom in the way white-owned companies gained when the government forced their customers to share their shopping experience with blacks, and the white-owned businesses did enough more volume that they could get a lower wholesale price, lower their retail price, and drive the smaller minority-owned businesses out? The corporations aren't doing that same thing to all small businesses today?

There's no glory in the way Greenwood was rebuilt from the ashes? There's nothing to mourn in the fact that bigger businesses, aided by short sighted and one sided government policies, eventually killed it once and for all?

There's no beauty in the efforts of a few people to get this history unearthed and the victims remembered? There's no folly in the government's desperate effort to pander to them, without appearing to pander to them too much?

Seems to me there's a lot of meat here. Yeah, the steak is what really catches the eye, but all those pounds of chuck roast surely count for something.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=JoH8_5eRyjA

Richard Lloyd Jones did the lion's share of stirring this up. Why? Was prejudice really his sole motivation?

[DamianTV]

This is NOT about Racism.
This IS ALL about Statism.

[acptulsa]

I didn't write a term paper on Greenwood Avenue.
Sounds like you read a book.
Good for you.
Now read 40+ more, like I have on the subject of black history, and then try talking down to me.
....aaand... ...tell me you don't see a common theme in everything.

And it is nice that black people rebuilt Greenwood, but did anybody who actually did the looting or killing have to pay for the damage? Were any charges ever brought? You seriously are going to talk about Greenwood avenue because why? You are going to use one of the worst race riots in history to claim that it is economics, and not racism, that is keeping black people down? You are crazy.

America is racist to the core, and always has been. Period.



You gonna rescind that? Or are you going to stand by it?

I did just that. And in the end, you found you didn't disagree with me. I said two things--desegregation combined with corporatism--did more to destroy the American dream for people of color than a thousand lynchings, and you were triggered. You fought me tooth and nail. But once you calmed down enough to actually listen to me, you saw merit in what I said--and found you had already heard that and saw merit in it. Didn't you?

https://www.brainyquote.com/photos_tr/en/w/willrogers/385286/willrogers1.jpg

It never ceases to amaze me how willing people are to fight over something before they ever take the trouble to understand it. Someone can say the sky is azure, but if azure is our trigger word, we'd rather kill them than let them go away without admitting the sky is yellow. And even after experiences like this thread, you're still at it. Assuming people are enemies if they don't march in lockstep, and lobbing personal insults in lieu of understanding alternate points of view.

Have you ever gone back and looked at past conversations you had when you were a communist? You might learn something from those.

No wonder we're so easy to manipulate, divide and conquer. Trump is destroying the media? Puh-lease. Trump has always adored the media. It gave him everything he treasures--money, power, and most of all, attention.

[r3volution 3.0]

Interesting thread...


I didn't write a term paper on Greenwood Avenue.
Sounds like you read a book.
Good for you.
Now read 40+ more, like I have on the subject of black history, and then try talking down to me.
....aaand... ...tell me you don't see a common theme in everything.

And it is nice that black people rebuilt Greenwood, but did anybody who actually did the looting or killing have to pay for the damage? Were any charges ever brought? You seriously are going to talk about Greenwood avenue because why? You are going to use one of the worst race riots in history to claim that it is economics, and not racism, that is keeping black people down? You are crazy.

America is racist to the core, and always has been. Period.

Why is it that the conversos are always the most fanatical?

...I wonder how many other alt-righters today were SJWs yesterday?

[Wooden Indian]

Interesting thread...



Why is it that the conversos are always the most fanatical?

...I wonder how many other alt-righters today were SJWs yesterday?

I was just thinking something similar while reading this. It all makes sense too. Wow.

[acptulsa]

Interesting thread...

I thought some might find it so, in light of recent events.

SJWs, alt righters, fad hoppers in general, I suppose they're all good as long as they fight the enemy. The problem is, the enemy never seems to trigger them as often as their friends do--especially when their friends are one fad hop behind.


Cognitive dissonance. They don't shoot their oppressor, they shoot the messenger.

At the end of the day, it bears repeating...

https://www.brainyquote.com/photos_tr/en/w/willrogers/385286/willrogers1.jpg

All these people defending Trump not by citing facts, but by accusing those who question him of having their heads up CNN's ass. But who or what was it that told them in the first place that Trump is anti-establishment? After all, we all know they didn't get that idea from the actual evidence.


If you allow people's anger and hatred to consume you, it will.

Bears repeating. And it's just as true of leftists as anyone else.

A third thing that bears repeating, especially since the version I posted in a post above was scrubbed from YouTube. People should reflect more on how they're being played this way. Certainly those who abandoned the Liberty Movement for Trumpmania could stand to reflect upon the damage done.

In case this version is scrubbed by YouTube as well, it's Only a Pawn in Their Game by Bob Dylan.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=KY2lQV3ADfc

The reason the colleges are trying to make history all black and white is it camouflages all those shades of gray--and the Powers that Be are among those shades of gray. Get us blaming each other for the shootings and lynchings, and we fail to notice how they're screwing us all. And the louder we get in denouncing each other and considering it a crime to consider the real effects of things like desegregation when there were lynchings--lynchings!--the more we let them get away with, and the more they can use those age-old tricks to impoverish us while we learn only of rope and nooses.

Dude, they can afford trolls. Don't be a useful idiot for them for free! They don't need it. They don't deserve it.

[UWDude]

I did just that. And in the end, you found you didn't disagree with me. I said two things--desegregation combined with corporatism--did more to destroy the American dream for people of color than a thousand lynchings, and you were triggered. You fought me tooth and nail. But once you calmed down enough to actually listen to me, you saw merit in what I said--and found you had already heard that and saw merit in it. Didn't you?

https://www.brainyquote.com/photos_tr/en/w/willrogers/385286/willrogers1.jpg

It never ceases to amaze me how willing people are to fight over something before they ever take the trouble to understand it. Someone can say the sky is azure, but if azure is our trigger word, we'd rather kill them than let them go away without admitting the sky is yellow. And even after experiences like this thread, you're still at it. Assuming people are enemies if they don't march in lockstep, and lobbing personal insults in lieu of understanding alternate points of view.

Have you ever gone back and looked at past conversations you had when you were a communist? You might learn something from those.

So you necro a thread, and then try to tell me I still don't think America is racist to the core? I still do.


No wonder we're so easy to manipulate, divide and conquer. Trump is destroying the media? Puh-lease. Trump has always adored the media. It gave him everything he treasures--money, power, and most of all, attention.

Oh I see, this , like everything else, somehow ties to Trump, right? Explain to me again how?


I said two things--desegregation combined with corporatism--did more to destroy the American dream for people of color than a thousand lynchings, and you were triggered.

Yeah, and I still am "triggered" by saying desegregation hurt black people. It still simply is not true.

[UWDude]

Why is it that the conversos are always the most fanatical?

...I wonder how many other alt-righters today were SJWs yesterday?

I am an alt-righter, I am a SJW, which is it? Do you even know? Is the whole world a book of labels to you?


Get us blaming each other for the shootings and lynchings, and we fail to notice how they're screwing us all. And the louder we get in denouncing each other and considering it a crime to consider the real effects of things like desegregation when there were lynchings--lynchings!-

You just simply have no idea the terror lynching cause in a people who already have no state protection, and who are actually persecuted by the state regularly. Plus, do you have any idea how many lynchings per year at the height of lynchings? Any idea at all? Take a guess. I touched the physical documentation of one year's worth. I'd like for you to tell me your best guess... as you minimize lynchings.

[r3volution 3.0]

You just simply have no idea the terror lynching cause in a people who already have no state protection, and who are actually persecuted by the state regularly. Plus, do you have any idea how many lynchings per year in America there were in the 1910 - 1920 era? Any idea at all? Take a guess. I touched the physical documentation of one year's worth. I'd like for you to tell me your best guess... as you minimize lynchings.

You told me the other day that a "nation" has the right to do whatever they can do (might is right).

e.g. to throw out Mexicans

Do you think that comports with your previous views?

It's okay to change your mind.

Do you still believe that blacks are kept down by racism, and not other factors (like economics)?

P.S. Are you black?

[UWDude]

You told me the other day that a "nation" has the right to do whatever they can do (might is right).

You know damn well that is not what I said. We even had a discussion about what I said, where you noted you understood the difference between what I said, "might makes rights" and "might makes right", and yet, to win an argument online, you lie. You clearly in the other thread, said you understood what I was saying, and then tried ot refute that, yet, two days later, here you are, being scummy again. Back to your old self. This is why I don't respect you. You are scummy, you are a troll, and you are dishonest. "Debating" with you is pointless. The only thing you are good for is flame practice.



Do you think that comports with your previous views?

It's okay to change your mind.

Do you still believe that blacks are kept down by racism, and not other factors (like economics)?

P.S. Are you black?

If you ever, EVER want to EVER have an honest debate with me, try being honest first. Or else I will just continue to treat you like I do Zippy and CPUd, who also are dishonest, disgusting trolls.

[r3volution 3.0]

You know damn well that is not what I said. We even had a discussion about what I said, where you noted you understood the difference between what I said, "might makes rights" and "might makes right", and yet, to win an argument online, you lie. You clearly in the other thread, said you understood what I was saying, and then tried ot refute that, yet, two days later, here you are, being scummy again. Back to your old self. This is why I don't respect you. You are scummy, you are a troll, and you are dishonest. "Debating" with you is pointless. The only thing you are good for is flame practice.

To be fair (to myself) your argument was incoherent.


If you ever, EVER want to EVER have an honest debate with me, try being honest first. Or else I will just continue to treat you like I do Zippy and CPUd, who also are dishonest, disgusting trolls.

Am I part of the America which has always been racist, period?

[r3volution 3.0]

Thesis: all alt-righters are self-hating blacks/Mexicans

https://media.tenor.com/images/a080dc6679a268f9b0ea068b6b885898/tenor.gif

[acptulsa]

So you necro a thread, and then try to tell me I still don't think America is racist to the core? I still do.

I didn't say anything of the sort.


Oh I see, this , like everything else, somehow ties to Trump, right? Explain to me again how?

You jumped to both conclusions based on no evidence, but rather the brainwashing you have received


Yeah, and I still am "triggered" by saying desegregation hurt black people. It still simply is not true.

Hurt all? Hurts those in their prime today? Of course not. But you deny, despite the evidence we have examined, that it ever hurt anyone? Not even those educators who lost their jobs after Brown v. Board of Education because the schools and/or districts they headed were closed in favor of white schools? Not even those entrepreneurs of Greenwood whose businesses failed because the institutionalized racism which desegregation did not magically end overnight, and made it impossible for them to compete with white businesses for the patronage of their own people? It didn't hurt even one single individual of color? Not one?


You just simply have no idea the terror lynching cause in a people who already have no state protection, and who are actually persecuted by the state regularly. Plus, do you have any idea how many lynchings per year at the height of lynchings? Any idea at all? Take a guess. I touched the physical documentation of one year's worth. I'd like for you to tell me your best guess... as you minimize lynchings.


According to the Tuskegee Institute figures, between the years 1882 and 1951, 4,730 people were lynched in the United States: 3,437 Negro and 1,293 white.3 The largest number of lynchings occurred in 1892.

teachersinstitute.yale.edu/curriculum/units/1979/2/79

Cheney and Company killed more people than that on September 11, 2001 alone. One day of bombing Syria is liable to kill more innocents than that. And I'm including the pale people who were lynched when I say that. Even so, when you say I'm trying to minimize lynchings you are once again lying out your ass. Indeed, lynchings were used to ensure the victim demographic could not escape the economic trap of the company store, the New Slavery that outlasted slavery by decades. You seem to differentiate the lynchings from the economic warfare. There's no sense in that.

What I am saying to you is, you refuse to allow anyone to discuss this economic Company Store New Slavery, you refuse to allow us to learn how that same sort of economic warfare is being waged on us today, you refuse to allow us to look at any other aspect of racism, class division, and injustice at all, no matter how much we can learn about our current troubles from it. We must not learn how desegregating shopping without desegregating the wholesale business deprived millions--not thousands but--millions--of the chance at entrepreneurship. Why not? Because lynching happened. We must not learn how by the time society caught up with desegregation, and blacks gained the ability to compete with whites in business, regulation had made it nearly impossible for any entrepreneur to get a start. Why? Because Dude thinks it would be disrespectful to people who would be dead by now even if they hadn't been lynched. This is how you are coming across. It really is.

You want to use your moral indignation over thousands to curtail my free speech about how tens--make that hundreds--of millions are being deprived of rights which our great grandfathers (of all races, to a greater or lesser degree) enjoyed. You can deny that until you're blue in the face, but that is exactly what you are doing. You can deny it's your intent--and I'd probably believe you--but it still casts you in the role of Useful Idiot for the Robber Barons.

Spew your denials. I expect nothing less. That's fine. But I have one more challenge for you. See if you can spew your denials without mischaracterizing and maliciously skewing what I have said. You haven't met that standard since this thread began. Are you capable of it?

[UWDude]

you refuse to allow us to look at any other aspect of racism, class division, and injustice at all, no matter how much we can learn about our current troubles from it.

Not even true. See if you can spew your denials without mischaracterizing and maliciously skewing what I have said. You haven't met that standard since this thread began. Are you capable of it?


You jumped to both conclusions based on no evidence, but rather the brainwashing you have received

So you necroed a thread to tell me I am brainwashed? You can insult me in any other thread, with any other reply, and call me brainwashed.

P.S. I know why you found this thread. I know what you have been doing. I must have hit you raw for you to start digging that deep, looking for dirt. It's cool, we all do that. It's the internet and all. What is kind of funny is how derailed you got from your original dirt mission on me. Ha ha.

Better luck next time, gumshoe.

[acptulsa]

You just simply have no idea the terror lynching cause in a people who already have no state protection, and who are actually persecuted by the state regularly... as you minimize lynchings.

QED

And I don't wake up in a new world every day. I put some thought into this thread, and I remembered it. Sorry to destroy your half-baked theory. But when I saw you running around behaving obnoxiously, I thought some other people might be interested to see it.

And some were. I'd ask how that makes me unlucky in your eyes, but I honestly don't care. I've had enough of your so-called thought processes to last me months and months.

[Wooden Indian]

Over the last several months I have pondered who I dislike the most... is it Trump-worshippers or SJWs.

Now since I see they can be one in the same, it really helps.

Thanks for the bump, Tulsa.

[r3volution 3.0]

Over the last several months I have pondered who I dislike the most... is it Trump-worshippers or SJWs.

Now since I see they can be one in the same, it really helps.

Thanks for the bump, Tulsa.

Seconded

[UWDude]

You want to use your moral indignation over thousands to curtail my free speech

Yeah. Uh huh.

[r3volution 3.0]

Quick Poll.

Mexicans should not be allowed into the country.

(Y)

(N)

[UWDude]

And even after experiences like this thread, you're still at it. Assuming people are enemies if they don't march in lockstep, and lobbing personal insults in lieu of understanding alternate points of view.

Sanctimonious nonsense

"march in lockstep"

You are the one drawing the world in black and white, buddy.

[Pauls' Revere]

The only race I am is Human.

[Ender]

The only race I am is Human.

Hey, me too!!! ;)

[William Tell]

Hey, me too!!! ;)

You chose a mortal life?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCT9D5zQQm4

[Ender]

You chose a mortal life?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCT9D5zQQm4

For the time being. ;)

Then it's:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWOIf0_tCnk

[William Tell]

For the time being. ;)

Then it's:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWOIf0_tCnk Either way, you annoy Hugo Weaving.:D

[Ender]

Either way, you annoy Hugo Weaving.:D

Dang! Now I gotta go watch V- it's all your fault William!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chqi8m4CEEY

[UWDude]

Oh? Now why don't you just say outright which of the people you were being obnoxious to you're accusing of Klan membership?

Go ahead. Name the name and get yourself banned. Don't hold back.


You need a better hobby.

I stand fully behind all my statements in this thread.

Especially this one.

[jmdrake]

I stand fully behind all my statements in this thread.

Especially this one.

What are you seeking to prove exactly? :confused:

[Anti Federalist]

Quick Poll.

Mexicans should not be allowed into the country.

(Y)

(N)

Quick answer: Y

But poll is incomplete.

Neither should Germans, Ghanans, Guatemalans, Brits, Bangladeshis, Bhutanese, Somalis, Saudis or Singaporeans.

No long term entry or residency for anybody for 10 years.