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View Full Version : The case for and against Jesse Benton's professional campaign involvement




Bryan
11-15-2014, 02:36 PM
Jessie Benton has played an important lead role in a number of high profile liberty campaigns to which his performance has been the subject of great debate and discussion here. While Jesse's high profile public position does make him a legitimate candidate for open criticism much of the discussions devolves into non-fruitful banter.

The scope of this thread is to evaluate Jesse's professional performance and the value proposition he has for future campaigns.


Discussion ground rules:
* The site guidelines apply, please re-read them: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989
* On-topic discussion is strictly limited to positives and negatives to Jesse Benton's professional services and his performance history. Off-topic comments will be deleted.
* Any attacks against Jesse's character are not allowed, stick to issues of Jesse's professional performance. Anything that can be legally viewed as slander or a false attack on Jesse's reputation will not be tolerated.
* Cite sources for all information. If the information is just that "someone told me", that's fine, but state it as such. Discussion on the validity of sources is on-topic.
* Let people draw their own conclusions, there is no value in trying to force yours on others. You must educate people to that point.


The objective of this discussion is to:
* Bring important issues to light in a responsible manner. We are a discussion board and people will discuss things of importance.
* Prevent having to constantly rehash this issue over and over in different threads, if the topic comes up again people can be redirected here. Bookmark this thread if the topic is important to you.


You will do your own reputation service to present your points in a well crafted, thoughtful manner.

This thread will be heavily moderated and violations will lead to strong moderation action.



.

ghengis86
11-15-2014, 03:09 PM
Benton resigned Mitch McConnell's campaign in August 2014. There was/is an FEC investigation running concurrently to the 2014 election cycle involving personnel from the Ron Paul 2012 campaign. Benton was the RP 2012 campaign manager.

I don't think any campaign for President should have any association with people that are caught up in an FEC investigation which arguably lead to a resignation from their previous campaign.

Carlybee
11-15-2014, 03:28 PM
I highly doubt the campaign cares what we think about Jesse Benton.

Bryan
11-15-2014, 03:36 PM
I highly doubt the campaign cares what we think about Jesse Benton.
I certainly understand that's a debatable point, to which we don't know the answer. Still, I reference to "We are a discussion board and people will discuss things of importance."

Thank you.

Demigod
11-15-2014, 03:41 PM
When your political philosophy is limited government having half the family work for the government over generations is hardly doing what you preach.What is the difference between what the Paul family is doing with Benton and Biden is doing with his son in Ukraine.By their actions so far I would not expect any different if the Paul family was in the same position of power as Biden.

ghengis86
11-15-2014, 04:16 PM
When your political philosophy is limited government having half the family work for the government over generations is hardly doing what you preach.What is the difference between what the Paul family is doing with Benton and Biden is doing with his son in Ukraine.By their actions so far I would not expect any different if the Paul family was in the same position of power as Biden.

This is getting close to OT, but suffice to say, I don't see any Biden's pushing for an audit of the Fed or limiting the NSA's power or eliminating the Patriot Act.

But, WRT -and back on topic-Benton being involved in the family business of politics, I don't think there should be an argument against working with family, be it business, politics or down on the ranch. I do see the argument against nepotism in that an unqualified or rather an unprofessional family member remains in the business strictly due to their familial relationships when they are clearly not up to the tasks they are entrusted to.

I fall in the camp of Benton's un professionalism as stated in my first post is reason enough to not have him associated with the campaign.

Demigod
11-15-2014, 04:31 PM
This is getting close to OT, but suffice to say, I don't see any Biden's pushing for an audit of the Fed or limiting the NSA's power or eliminating the Patriot Act.

But, WRT -and back on topic-Benton being involved in the family business of politics, I don't think there should be an argument against working with family, be it business, politics or down on the ranch. I do see the argument against nepotism in that an unqualified or rather an unprofessional family member remains in the business strictly due to their familial relationships when they are clearly not up to the tasks they are entrusted to.

I fall in the camp of Benton's un professionalism as stated in my first post is reason enough to not have him associated with the campaign.

But this is clear nepotism only a man that has an interest in looking the other way could say it is not.Also I would like to ask, I remember that at the end of the RP presidential campaign people wrote here that there were a lot of money left in RP`s super packs and campaign accounts so does anyone know anything about where all that money went ?

As for what he is pushing for ,from the videos and articles you post here the only thing that I have seen Rand push for that is important is voting rights for minor felons.He made a speech about drones and did nothing about it while he has not even talked about the federal reserve.He even said that the USA should go to war with ISIS.Maybe I am wrong but all I am seeing here is another political dynasty being formed that sells bullshit.

helmuth_hubener
11-15-2014, 04:52 PM
Some of Tom Woods' experience:

For months and months, the top two people spun everything I did in the most negative light possible, in order to poison my reputation with people I respect. They don’t know I know this. But I’m happy to say I have friends everywhere, and they are loyal.

Again, I kept my mouth shut. And again, no one on earth can seriously expect me to continue doing so.

Of the various lies Jesse told about me, the least damaging was the claim that I had called him a — well, it’s a word I would never say. The actual story was this: in 2010 I was having drinks with Iowa Ron Paul GOP people, and Jesse was there. I mentioned the name of an old college friend of mine I thought Jesse might know, and Jesse shouted out, with an important Christian Right Ron Paul guy right there, “X [my college friend] is a —-sucker!” Classy. I reminded Jesse of this incident when he complained of my allegedly boorish behavior. At that moment, the story began to spread that I had called Jesse a you-know-what.

This particular lie I made no special effort to refute. I joked with people that if the grassroots heard that I had called Jesse that name, I’d be a hero.

So Benton is gone, but is Bentonism alive and well? Bentonism is the playing down of Ron Paul’s most popular and important ideas, the impatience with and purging of people who champion those ideas, and an obsessive eye to GOP respectability. Is that what the “liberty movement” is? Then count me out.

Finally, please note that I stand to gain nothing by clearing the air like this. Nothing but grief and more burned bridges. But sometimes you have to do what you have to do, regardless of the consequences for yourself. It’s quite possible that this person will make his way back into our circles at some point, and I want to urge people not even to consider donating to anything with his name on it.

Incidentally, if Rand Paul intends to run in 2016, the single most effective way he could convey to the public that he is not really serious, and that people should withhold their donations, would be to hire Jesse Benton.

Source: http://tomwoods.com/blog/my-memories-of-jesse-bento/

ghengis86
11-15-2014, 04:56 PM
But this is clear nepotism only a man that has an interest in looking the other way could say it is not.Also I would like to ask, I remember that at the end of the RP presidential campaign people wrote here that there were a lot of money left in RP`s super packs and campaign accounts so does anyone know anything about where all that money went ?

As for what he is pushing for ,from the videos and articles you post here the only thing that I have seen Rand push for that is important is voting rights for minor felons.He made a speech about drones and did nothing about it while he has not even talked about the federal reserve.He even said that the USA should go to war with ISIS.Maybe I am wrong but all I am seeing here is another political dynasty being formed that sells bullshit.

Maybe you missed the nuance in my post; IMO, Benton's involvement in Rand 2016 would be nepotism as he has shown he does not have the ability or skills to run a successful campaign to the end.

WRT the Paul family being another Kennedy Dynasty, start another thread please. We're straying OT (but I could be wrong)

helmuth_hubener
11-15-2014, 04:57 PM
Regarding Jesse Benton (and John Tate):

"...these are incompetent and/or sinister people, and I am sure Dr. Paul leaving the convention early was not in their plans, so anything that frustrates their plans I think is a plus for the rest of us."

Source:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw_B5bx8GKc

KingNothing
11-15-2014, 04:59 PM
I'm totally indifferent towards Benton. I respect his disdain for the lunatic fringe but he really seems like he's a complete (mod edit). Even if he were smart, and he may very well be, given the allegations against him, I don't see how he can be involved moving forward.

erowe1
11-15-2014, 05:00 PM
I personally can't stand the guy.

I suppose the main reason to have him would be to coordinate all the slimy corrupt things that a successful presidential campaign needs without Rand's involvement so that he can keep plausible deniability when and if they get exposed.

erowe1
11-15-2014, 05:02 PM
Even if he were smart, and he may very well be

I just have a really hard time believing he's smart. If he's better at doing some things than some other people are it's because he isn't impeded by a conscience like them.

acptulsa
11-15-2014, 05:04 PM
I personally can't stand the guy.

I suppose the main reason to have him would be to coordinate all the slimy corrupt things that a successful presidential campaign needs without Rand's involvement so that he can keep plausible deniability when and if they get exposed.

I thought that was our job...

Demigod
11-15-2014, 05:07 PM
Maybe you missed the nuance in my post; IMO, Benton's involvement in Rand 2016 would be nepotism as he has shown he does not have the ability or skills to run a successful campaign to the end.

WRT the Paul family being another Kennedy Dynasty, start another thread please. We're straying OT (but I could be wrong)

I didn't know what OT means so sorry no more posts on political dynasties.

But I would say that you would not need to wait to see that Rand 2016 is nepotic because he sure as hell did not became mcconnell`s campaign manager anyway else than by Rand including him in whatever deal he has with mcconnell.

ghengis86
11-15-2014, 05:16 PM
I thought that was our job...

Is that anyone's job? Do we really need to bribe people for their endorsement using campaign funds? Before I get into specifics about Benton, I'll look for the supporting sources. Anyone else that can post that info before me, please do

ghengis86
11-15-2014, 05:22 PM
I didn't know what OT means so sorry no more posts on political dynasties.

But I would say that you would not need to wait to see that Rand 2016 is nepotic because he sure as hell did not became mcconnell`s campaign manager anyway else than by Rand including him in whatever deal he has with mcconnell.

Sorry. OT = off-topic. The last Benton thread derailed badly.

I would tend to agree with you, but I could envision another scenario for your alleged Benton/Rand/McConnell deal. "Alright kid, show me your stuff by running ol' Mitch's re-election. This is a slam dunk so you can't possibly screw this up. If you do, you're out for my 2016 run"

Matt Collins
11-15-2014, 05:28 PM
Why start this thread? :confused:

No one here has a say in the matter, and given some of the rampant immaturity and lack of understanding of how to actually run a serious campaign, it's a good thing.

Matt Collins
11-15-2014, 05:33 PM
Some of Tom Woods' experience:

For months and months, the top two people spun everything I did in the most negative light possible, in order to poison my reputation with people I respect.And I can tell you from first hand experience that when Tom started publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011, Jesse called me and asked me what was going on. He had the utmost respect for Tom at the time (as did I) and was trying to figure out any way we could get Tom to act like a mature adult. Unfortunately Tom insisted on airing his personal laundry out in public and bashing the campaign like a spoiled bratty child.

jjdoyle
11-15-2014, 05:35 PM
And I can tell you from first hand experience that when Tom started publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011, Jesse called me and asked me what was going on. He had the utmost respect for Tom at the time (as did I) and was trying to figure out any way we could get Tom to act like a mature adult. Unfortunately Tom insisted on airing his personal laundry out in public and bashing the campaign like a spoiled bratty child.

Backup your claim of Tom publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011. Back it up, with a link, video, screenshot, or something. It is a 100% false claim as of now, that you have refused to backup.

Demigod
11-15-2014, 05:36 PM
Why start this thread? :confused:

No one here has a say in the matter, and given some of the rampant immaturity and lack of understanding of how to actually run a serious campaign, it's a good thing.

Finally able to dig your hands deep enough in the government jar so who cares what the people who were the main support from the beginning think, how unprecedented from political parasites.

CaptUSA
11-15-2014, 05:48 PM
And I can tell you from first hand experience that when Tom started publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011, Jesse called me and asked me what was going on. He had the utmost respect for Tom at the time (as did I) and was trying to figure out any way we could get Tom to act like a mature adult. Unfortunately Tom insisted on airing his personal laundry out in public and bashing the campaign like a spoiled bratty child.

That, to me, sounds like typical political infighting BS. I know you think it's a good thing to drive a wedge between certain factions of the liberty movement, but I'm telling you, it doesn't need to be like that. It only weakens us.

My problems with Benton aren't personal. They are strategic. Whether or not you think he does a good job doesn't really matter if he's tainted. And he's tainted.

There's a sentiment among many in this movement and many in the establishment that believe that the Pauls, and those around them, are not really interested in righting the ship of this nation and correcting the disaster. There is the belief that there is a good way to make money and power off of the chaos.

I really hope that isn't true, but Benton is the poster child for that belief. He sends all the wrong signals, not only to the base, but also to the potential moneymen. hiring the guy who was caught on tape blasting his boss, who was caught in a bribing scandal, and who has repeatedly shunned the most devout believers in the cause, sends the message that this is not about a serious campaign.

erowe1
11-15-2014, 05:50 PM
Jesse called me and asked me what was going on.

/thread

acptulsa
11-15-2014, 06:11 PM
/thread

Not exactly confidence inspiring...

Bryan
11-15-2014, 06:15 PM
Why start this thread? :confused:

As I explained in the opening post:


The objective of this discussion is to:
* Bring important issues to light in a responsible manner. We are a discussion board and people will discuss things of importance.
* Prevent having to constantly rehash this issue over and over in different threads, if the topic comes up again people can be redirected here. Bookmark this thread if the topic is important to you.

----


No one here has a say in the matter
As I wrote above:

I certainly understand that's a debatable point, to which we don't know the answer. Still, I reference to "We are a discussion board and people will discuss things of importance."

Thank you.

helmuth_hubener
11-15-2014, 06:36 PM
Another verification of Tom Woods' opinion and experience: "I wouldn't have hired this guy and he wouldn't be a million miles close to anything I was involved in."

Source:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJxPftt_1G0

Carlybee
11-15-2014, 06:36 PM
And I can tell you from first hand experience that when Tom started publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011, Jesse called me and asked me what was going on. He had the utmost respect for Tom at the time (as did I) and was trying to figure out any way we could get Tom to act like a mature adult. Unfortunately Tom insisted on airing his personal laundry out in public and bashing the campaign like a spoiled bratty child.


And why would he assume you knew what was going on?

Natural Citizen
11-15-2014, 06:36 PM
...political infighting...


This is worthy of a topic itself and something that we don't particularly give much attention. We should. A great deal of goings on of late are a product of this. We're seeing the phenomenon geo-politically, in domestic politics here at home and from within major industry. There are times when "infighting" is not typical and the phenomenon most often reveals itself at the moment in time when things must get worse before they get better. Perhaps I'm off topic depending upon individual perception of the root issue but I just wanted to mention that. There is a tremendous amount of infighting among neoconservatives who reside in both major political parties. The results of this are coming to fruition (ill thought out/knee jerk policy/strategy that increasingly leaves us red faced) both domestically as well as geopolitically. I'd imagine a trickle down isn't out of the question but I doubt in a way that is relevant to the issues.

jjdoyle
11-15-2014, 06:43 PM
Why start this thread? :confused:

No one here has a say in the matter, and given some of the rampant immaturity and lack of understanding of how to actually run a serious campaign, it's a good thing.

No one here might have a say as Bryan said, but some of us are contacting certain individuals with information regarding this topic. I mean the immaturity and lack of understanding in regards to running a serious campaign that I have seen and cared about, was from Ron Paul 2008 and Ron Paul 2012.

Under Jesse Benton's leadership, Ron Paul got fewer votes than Rick Santorum, despite being the race longer than Rick Santorum and raising more money than him.

mosquitobite
11-15-2014, 06:43 PM
And I can tell you from first hand experience that when Tom started publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011, Jesse called me and asked me what was going on. He had the utmost respect for Tom at the time (as did I) and was trying to figure out any way we could get Tom to act like a mature adult. Unfortunately Tom insisted on airing his personal laundry out in public and bashing the campaign like a spoiled bratty child.

I hope you realize that this is typical divide and conquer type politics? My establishment GOP chair does this ALL.THE.TIME.

So what if Tom Woods didn't like Jesse Benton and was talking about him? If Benton wishes to be in politics he needs to learn how to get the hell over it. Does he realize how many people hated Ron Paul and talked bad about him?

waaaah

The mature response would have been to not give it attention, or even more mature would have been to do some self introspection to see if there was any validity in Woods' claims. The even more mature response than that would have been to offer to buy him coffee and have a conversation about how they could reconcile whatever differences they were having.

But I'm sure calling Matt Collins was the most mature response. < /sarc >

GunnyFreedom
11-15-2014, 07:59 PM
I hope you realize that this is typical divide and conquer type politics? My establishment GOP chair does this ALL.THE.TIME.

So what if Tom Woods didn't like Jesse Benton and was talking about him? If Benton wishes to be in politics he needs to learn how to get the hell over it. Does he realize how many people hated Ron Paul and talked bad about him?

waaaah

The mature response would have been to not give it attention, or even more mature would have been to do some self introspection to see if there was any validity in Woods' claims. The even more mature response than that would have been to offer to buy him coffee and have a conversation about how they could reconcile whatever differences they were having.

But I'm sure calling Matt Collins was the most mature response. < /sarc >

I'm not much of a Benton fan, but somehow I don't believe Jesse's nose is even remotely as out of joint as Collins implies.

Matt Collins
11-15-2014, 08:23 PM
And why would he assume you knew what was going on?
Because I monitored social networks and was the netroots guy.

Matt Collins
11-15-2014, 08:26 PM
I hope you realize that this is typical divide and conquer type politics? My establishment GOP chair does this ALL.THE.TIME.

So what if Tom Woods didn't like Jesse Benton and was talking about him? Because Tom is the one being divisive by publicly attacking Jesse.



If Benton wishes to be in politics he needs to learn how to get the hell over it. Does he realize how many people hated Ron Paul and talked bad about him?That's not the issue. The issue is that someone who is supposedly on our side actively hurting the campaign by publicly undermining it.


The mature response would have been to not give it attention, or even more mature would have been to do some self introspection to see if there was any validity in Woods' claims. The even more mature response than that would have been to offer to buy him coffee and have a conversation about how they could reconcile whatever differences they were having.No, the mature thing would've been for Tom Woods not to have aired his grievances publicly, valid or invalid.

jjdoyle
11-15-2014, 08:28 PM
Because Tom is the one being divisive by publicly attacking Jesse.

That's not the issue. The issue is that someone who is supposedly on our side actively hurting the campaign by publicly undermining it.

No, the mature thing would've been for Tom Woods not to have aired his grievances publicly, valid or invalid.

Prove your claim of it happening in 2011, and not 2012.

CPUd
11-15-2014, 08:38 PM
I didn't know what OT means so sorry no more posts on political dynasties.

But I would say that you would not need to wait to see that Rand 2016 is nepotic because he sure as hell did not became mcconnell`s campaign manager anyway else than by Rand including him in whatever deal he has with mcconnell.

Not necessarily. McConnell could have brought onboard the guy who won the state's other Senate seat to help defend his own.

Crashland
11-15-2014, 08:57 PM
Because Tom is the one being divisive by publicly attacking Jesse.


That's not the issue. The issue is that someone who is supposedly on our side actively hurting the campaign by publicly undermining it.

No, the mature thing would've been for Tom Woods not to have aired his grievances publicly, valid or invalid.


Prove your claim of it happening in 2011, and not 2012.

I, too, would like Matt to either substantiate or withdraw the claim that Woods did this in 2011 and not 2012. If it can't be substantiated, then I will assume that whatever he did in 2011 was not "public" enough to have any public damaging effect, if it left absolutely no traces behind.

But all in all, we aren't talking about what Tom Woods should have done. Tom Woods is not the subject of this discussion. We are talking about what Jesse Benton did and what that tells us about his professionalism, regardless of whether Tom Woods was right or wrong in what he did.

erowe1
11-15-2014, 09:07 PM
I, too, would like Matt to either substantiate or withdraw the claim that Woods did this in 2011 and not 2012. If it can't be substantiated, then I will assume that whatever he did in 2011 was not "public" enough to have any public damaging effect, if it left absolutely no traces behind.

But all in all, we aren't talking about what Tom Woods should have done. Tom Woods is not the subject of this discussion. We are talking about what Jesse Benton did and what that tells us about his professionalism, regardless of whether Tom Woods was right or wrong in what he did.

I'm pretty sure Matt is talking about things like this (http://tomwoods.com/blog/ron-paul-and-the-debate-some-friendly-suggestions/), and other similar things, where Woods offered constructive criticisms.

Crashland
11-15-2014, 09:26 PM
I'm pretty sure Matt is talking about things like this (http://tomwoods.com/blog/ron-paul-and-the-debate-some-friendly-suggestions/), and other similar things, where Woods offered constructive criticisms.

Reading through that, it seems to me like a really big stretch to call that kind of thing "undermining the campaign". The points he made were, in my opinion, fairly obvious, and I highly doubt the necessity of keeping those ideas secret as if no one else outside the campaign had thought of them. Not sure if something like that is actually what Matt is talking about, but if it isn't, then Matt is free to add the source that he feels is the most egregious offense.

Even if Woods did damage the campaign, mosquitobite's point in this post still stands. Matt attempted to dodge the question by attacking Woods, but the subject of this post is what Benton did. Did Benton's handling of the situation demonstrate professionalism and help the campaign? Matt, please re-read and respond again:


I hope you realize that this is typical divide and conquer type politics? My establishment GOP chair does this ALL.THE.TIME.

So what if Tom Woods didn't like Jesse Benton and was talking about him? If Benton wishes to be in politics he needs to learn how to get the hell over it. Does he realize how many people hated Ron Paul and talked bad about him?

waaaah

The mature response would have been to not give it attention, or even more mature would have been to do some self introspection to see if there was any validity in Woods' claims. The even more mature response than that would have been to offer to buy him coffee and have a conversation about how they could reconcile whatever differences they were having.

But I'm sure calling Matt Collins was the most mature response. < /sarc >

invisible
11-15-2014, 09:29 PM
Bryan, thanks for this thread, and the opportunity to actually have this much-needed discussion.

I personally am neutral on benton. I've met him in passing a couple times, and he certainly seemed like a nice enough guy. The benton-bashers' case and positions are well known. We all know about the bad things he has done, and the good things he hasn't done. Those against benton have made a good argument. He has proved to be a controversial figure who has caused a large division among Ron and Rand's supporters.

However, what I'm interested in hearing is the counter argument. Yes, he's family for Ron and Rand. He is apparently trusted by them. This is why I am still neutral. But being a trusted family member is obviously not enough to qualify him for his position. There is some other reason why Ron and Rand feel he is essential to their campaign staff. My question is, what is it? What does benton bring to the table, that makes his inclusion worth the controversy and division among supporters? What is he able to do, that someone else without the controversy attached to them is not able to do?

No one seems to be able to actually answer this.

Matt Collins
11-15-2014, 09:33 PM
I, too, would like Matt to either substantiate or withdraw the claim that Woods did this in 2011 and not 2012. If it can't be substantiated, then I will assume that whatever he did in 2011 was not "public" enough to have any public damaging effect, if it left absolutely no traces behind.
I'm pretty sure Matt is talking about things like this (http://tomwoods.com/blog/ron-paul-and-the-debate-some-friendly-suggestions/), and other similar things, where Woods offered constructive criticisms.
That is part of it yes, but Tom posted some pretty inflammatory and insulting Facebook posts. I have screenshots, but I am not going to post them because it does no good to do so.

erowe1
11-15-2014, 09:34 PM
That is part of it yes, but Tom posted some pretty inflammatory and insulting Facebook posts. I have screenshots, but I am not going to post them because it does no good to do so.

From 2011?

Natural Citizen
11-15-2014, 09:36 PM
Tom posted some pretty inflammatory and insulting Facebook posts. I have screenshots, but I am not going to post them because it does no good to do so.

What does a netroots guy (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463121-The-case-for-and-against-Jesse-Benton-s-professional-campaign-involvement&p=5702392&viewfull=1#post5702392) actually do? Scwewy question, I know, but color me simple, I don't know the answer.

erowe1
11-15-2014, 09:36 PM
What does benton bring to the table, that makes his inclusion worth the controversy and division among supporters? What is he able to do, that someone else without the controversy attached to them is not able to do?

No one seems to be able to actually answer this.

In 2012 Benton did the dirty work that Ron needed to be kept clean from. If Rand hires him, it will be to do the same for him.

cajuncocoa
11-15-2014, 09:36 PM
That is part of it yes, but Tom posted some pretty inflammatory and insulting Facebook posts. I have screenshots, but I am not going to post them because it does no good to do so.
Your typical modus operandi

Crashland
11-15-2014, 09:39 PM
In 2012 Benton did the dirty work that Ron needed to be kept clean from. If Rand hires him, it will be to do the same for him.

That may be true, but Benton is not the only person capable of doing that. Why not get someone else who isn't already tainted with massive negatives?

Matt Collins
11-15-2014, 09:39 PM
Reading through that, it seems to me like a really big stretch to call that kind of thing "undermining the campaign". The points he made were, in my opinion, fairly obvious,Well, what may be "obvious" to one, may be absolutely absurd and outright rude to those he was directing it to.


Tom doesn't know anything about campaigning, or politics for that matter. What he did would be like an art major trying to give Ludwig Von Mises criticism about his economic theories. Except that Tom offered his unsolicited criticism publicly out in the open for everyone to see.


Having read the link provided by erowe I can say that some of Tom's advice in this particular instance was not actually too bad. But why didn't he just call up Ron himself and talk to him about it? Why tell Ron what to do in front of everyone? It's a lack of tact.

Some of his other postings were just outright childish.

erowe1
11-15-2014, 09:42 PM
Reading through that, it seems to me like a really big stretch to call that kind of thing "undermining the campaign".

Of course you're right. But Benton took it personally. Benton is one of those types.

staerker
11-15-2014, 09:44 PM
That is part of it yes, but Tom posted some pretty inflammatory and insulting Facebook posts. I have screenshots, but I am not going to post them because it does no good to do so.

Matt, while one can appreciate the notion of not unnecessarily stirring things up, with this comment you have trapped yourself. If one is to trust you, your comments will do just as much harm as releasing these screenshots (why post that comment in the first place, if it does no good? You assume that no one will trust you?)

But the default here is to not believe unsubstantiated claims, so then, with this comment (and no screenshots) you lose all credibility.

jjdoyle
11-15-2014, 09:46 PM
Bryan, thanks for this thread, and the opportunity to actually have this much-needed discussion.

I personally am neutral on benton. I've met him in passing a couple times, and he certainly seemed like a nice enough guy. The benton-bashers' case and positions are well known. We all know about the bad things he has done, and the good things he hasn't done. Those against benton have made a good argument. He has proved to be a controversial figure who has caused a large division among Ron and Rand's supporters.

However, what I'm interested in hearing is the counter argument. Yes, he's family for Ron and Rand. He is apparently trusted by them. This is why I am still neutral. But being a trusted family member is obviously not enough to qualify him for his position. There is some other reason why Ron and Rand feel he is essential to their campaign staff. My question is, what is it? What does benton bring to the table, that makes his inclusion worth the controversy and division among supporters? What is he able to do, that someone else without the controversy attached to them is not able to do?

No one seems to be able to actually answer this.

Nothing. There is nothing that he is able to do that someone like Gunny, Penny Freeman, or even Deb could not do. So, what is it that would be a reason to keep him around? Dirty politics, of course.

Benton has emails and phone records from Ron Paul 2012 with Mitt Romney's campaign I believe, and the proof of selling everybody out for Rand's "benefit", and of course his own monetary benefit for destroying momentum in the campaign and ensuring the nomination process would go smoothly for Mitt Romney. Jesse Benton was paid over $500,000 doing "work" in Kentucky since Ron Paul 2012's campaign ended.

He went from running a losing political presidential campaign, that got fewer votes than Rick Santorum, to working for the Senate Minority leader making several hundred thousand dollars. Makes no sense, for anybody involved in politics knowing what we do.

There is no other reason for him to be near Rand in 2016 based on his performance with Ron Paul 2012, but if he is, it's probably because they are afraid Benton would leak things like emails and other stuff, further destroying the movement that he has already done much to destroy.

Under Jesse Benton's leadership at Ron Paul 2012, the campaign has now wasted several hundred thousand dollars trying to get the FEC investigation to go away quietly.

I have a solution that I would accept for Jesse to work for Rand in 2016 though. If Jesse Benton refunds Ron Paul 2012 the several hundred thousand dollars being spent on his and Dimitri's legal defense fund regarding the Kent Sorenson issue, and if Jesse Benton pays back the Kent Sorenson pay money to Ron Paul 2012, and gives back his paychecks from Ron Paul 2012 for February, March, April, and May 2012 (I can check the FEC reports for the exact months in 2012 if he would accept this agreement), AND most importantly if he gets Ron Paul 2012 to issue refunds to the few supporters that requested them and were denied, THEN I could see him working for Rand in 2016.

I wouldn't donate a dime if he is working for Rand in 2016, but the fact the grassroot supporters from 2012 wouldn't be paying for his mistakes in the campaign, would be a step in the right direction for me.

CPUd
11-15-2014, 09:50 PM
Perhaps Matt Collins can PM the screenshots to someone like Gunny with the understanding that they won't be posted publicly.

Crashland
11-15-2014, 09:53 PM
Well, what may be "obvious" to one, may be absolutely absurd and outright rude to those he was directing it to.


Tom doesn't know anything about campaigning, or politics for that matter. What he did would be like an art major trying to give Ludwig Von Mises criticism about his economic theories. Except that Tom offered his unsolicited criticism publicly out in the open for everyone to see.


Having read the link provided by erowe I can say that some of Tom's advice in this particular instance was not actually too bad. But why didn't he just call up Ron himself and talk to him about it? Why tell Ron what to do in front of everyone? It's a lack of tact.

Some of his other postings were just outright childish.

The outright childish ones were in 2011? Anyway, every candidate gets reams and reams of unsolicited public criticism all the time from people who don't know what they are talking about, from random people online, to talking heads on TV, and from supporters and detractors. Also, just because someone does not do something for a living doesn't mean that every opinion they have about that thing is automatically invalid. Again, I am sure when you are in a position like Benton's, you receive all sorts of unsolicited criticism all the time, and some of it is bound to be bad criticism and some of it is bound to be good criticism. It's not a black and white issue. But I would bet a lot of money that in 2016, there is going to be a hell of a lot more unsolicited criticism to the Rand Paul campaign. Do we really want Benton handling it the same way he did in Ron Paul 2012?

We need to stop talking about Tom Woods. We are supposed to be talking about Jesse Benton and how Jesse Benton handled the situation.

mosquitobite
11-15-2014, 09:56 PM
Because Tom is the one being divisive by publicly attacking Jesse.


That's not the issue. The issue is that someone who is supposedly on our side actively hurting the campaign by publicly undermining it.

No, the mature thing would've been for Tom Woods not to have aired his grievances publicly, valid or invalid.


:rolleyes: Did Tom attack the candidate?

How in the world was a possible attack against Jesse Benton (not substantiated) damaging to anyone except Jesse Benton?

green73
11-15-2014, 09:58 PM
I have to say..It's so refreshing for a member of Rand 2016 to reach out to us here. Suddenly I don't feel so small.

Matt, will you sign my mouse pad?

http://www.piloteers.org/forums/attachments/gallery/6354d1050807899-smilies-smile_hillbilly.jpg

jjdoyle
11-15-2014, 09:58 PM
Well, what may be "obvious" to one, may be absolutely absurd and outright rude to those he was directing it to.


Tom doesn't know anything about campaigning, or politics for that matter. What he did would be like an art major trying to give Ludwig Von Mises criticism about his economic theories. Except that Tom offered his unsolicited criticism publicly out in the open for everyone to see.


Having read the link provided by erowe I can say that some of Tom's advice in this particular instance was not actually too bad. But why didn't he just call up Ron himself and talk to him about it? Why tell Ron what to do in front of everyone? It's a lack of tact.

Some of his other postings were just outright childish.

REALLY!? It was called being a part of a PAC and following FEC guidelines, yes something we know your buddies Jesse Benton and Dimitri Kesari knew nothing of.
Tom Woods couldn't contact Ron about it privately, unless you wanted him to break FEC guidelines.

So, Tom Woods knows more about campaigning, than you and Jesse Benton...though, that isn't really saying a lot.

presence
11-15-2014, 10:02 PM
Lets play a game, I'll go first:

Add something to this list that you don't like about Jesse Benton

1) He's Facing Federal Election Fraud Charges



Feel free to add more than one item before you pass it on, you're always welcome to play more than once.

jjdoyle
11-15-2014, 10:02 PM
Lets play a game, I'll go first:

Feel free to add more than one item before you pass it on, you're always welcome to play more than once.

He's defended by Matt Collins.

presence
11-15-2014, 10:04 PM
keep up the format now ;)


Lets play a game, I'll go first:

Add something to this list that you don't like about Jesse Benton

1) He's Facing Federal Election Fraud Charges
2) He's defended by Matt Collins.

Danke
11-15-2014, 10:06 PM
Well, what may be "obvious" to one, may be absolutely absurd and outright rude to those he was directing it to.


Tom doesn't know anything about campaigning, or politics for that matter. What he did would be like an art major trying to give Ludwig Von Mises criticism about his economic theories. Except that Tom offered his unsolicited criticism publicly out in the open for everyone to see.


Having read the link provided by erowe I can say that some of Tom's advice in this particular instance was not actually too bad. But why didn't he just call up Ron himself and talk to him about it? Why tell Ron what to do in front of everyone? It's a lack of tact.

Some of his other postings were just outright childish.

He kept his mouth shut during the campaign. Then release a video after explaining why.

mosquitobite
11-15-2014, 10:16 PM
No, the mature thing would've been for Tom Woods not to have aired his grievances publicly, valid or invalid.

Again, another ESTABLISHMENT tactic.

It's ok for Jesse to air grievances about Tom because Jesse is "on the inside". Just like it's ok for the establishment to hate the grassroots and publish their grievances, but the grassroots are expected to hold their tongue because "the democrat is worse". :rolleyes:

Can you not see you've sold out to the very.same.mindset that we're all here to work against? That's what makes you so frustrating!

Natural Citizen
11-15-2014, 10:26 PM
If anyone would be helpful enough to answer my question in post #43, I'd appreciate it. Matt kind of bailed and didn't acknowledge my question. I wasn't going to tinker with him or anything. Is a real question that I have.

Edit - jjdoyle sent me in the right direction. Disregard question. Thanks, jjdoyle.

specsaregood
11-15-2014, 10:27 PM
Can you not see you've sold out to the very.same.mindset that we're all here to work against? That's what makes you so frustrating!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder


Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a Cluster B personality disorder[1] in which a person is excessively preoccupied with personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity, mentally unable to see the destructive damage they are causing to themselves and to others in the process.

Symptoms
People who are diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy.

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domain:
1.Antagonism, characterized by:
a. Grandiosity: Feelings of entitlement, either overt or covert; self-centeredness; firmly holding to the belief that one is better than others; condescending toward others.
b. Attention seeking: Excessive attempts to attract and be the focus of the attention of others; admiration seeking.

Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR, include:[1]
Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
Envies others and believes others envy him/her
Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic

Treatment
It is unusual for people to seek therapy for NPD. This is partly due to the NPD sufferers’ not believing they have a problem. Most, if not all, are unable to see the destructive damage they are causing to themselves and to others and usually only seek treatment at the insistence of relatives and friends.

jmdrake
11-15-2014, 10:37 PM
Rand Paul dropped Chris Hightower in 2009 for less. See: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/72823-the-ugly-paper-trail-of-rand-pauls-spokesman I honestly can't see Jesse having any significant role at this point. When the campaign staff become part of the news cycle, that's a problem. And Benton is already part of the news cycle.

Bryan
11-15-2014, 11:18 PM
We need to stop talking about Tom Woods. We are supposed to be talking about Jesse Benton and how Jesse Benton handled the situation.

FWIW, I do remember Tom posting a video that was critical of the campaign (IIRC) to which he pulled within hours. That said, Crashland is right, what would be relevant here is how Jesse managed any such situation. For the record, I am a huge Tom Woods supporter.

jjdoyle
11-15-2014, 11:31 PM
FWIW, I do remember Tom posting a video that was critical of the campaign (IIRC) to which he pulled within hours. That said, Crashland is right, what would be relevant here is how Jesse managed any such situation. For the record, I am a huge Tom Woods supporter.

Well, I would imagine there would have been a forum thread started with it in it at the time, and a time stamp would be on it and even if the video was pulled the embed of it would still show up and just display something like, "Video no longer available". Unless of course that thread was deleted.

I did a google search, and found one RPF thread that Matt Collins had actually started in regards to some Tom Woods stuff, but it wasn't about this. It was actually just a regular thread about another post/topic by Tom Woods.

For the record, are you a Jesse Benton supporter?

ghengis86
11-15-2014, 11:55 PM
Again, another ESTABLISHMENT tactic.

It's ok for Jesse to air grievances about Tom because Jesse is "on the inside". Just like it's ok for the establishment to hate the grassroots and publish their grievances, but the grassroots are expected to hold their tongue because "the democrat is worse". :rolleyes:

Can you not see you've sold out to the very.same.mindset that we're all here to work against? That's what makes you so frustrating!

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463021-Closed-thread-Open-it-back-up-Some-truth-was-finally-coming-out&p=5702602#post5702602

Matt and Jesse's definition of winning and what one must do to 'win' is exactly opposite of what the grassroot's definition of 'winning' is and what one must do to 'win'

I think that is the root of the issue and why there will never be reconciliation between the 'official campaigns' and the grassroots, no matter how many Benton's and Collins' and FEC investigations come and go. The seeds were most likely sewn between 2008 and 2010, as the power of the grassroots was too much for the establishment types to let alone, as they sought to co-opt that power and attempt to use it to further their own ends. I can be honest to myself and just deal with it, so long as the Ron Paul Inc. people are honest too and not try to be something their not.

green73
11-16-2014, 12:09 AM
I've been told that a post of mine has been deleted in this thread. Is this true?

newbitech
11-16-2014, 12:31 AM
Jesse Benton has contributed financially to Ted Cruz for 1000 in 2012.


Search for Benton, Jesse

http://www.politicalmoneyline.com/tr/tr_MG_indivdonor.aspx?td=1_0

Bryan
11-16-2014, 12:56 AM
Well, I would imagine there would have been a forum thread started with it in it at the time, and a time stamp would be on it and even if the video was pulled the embed of it would still show up and just display something like, "Video no longer available". Unless of course that thread was deleted.

I did a google search, and found one RPF thread that Matt Collins had actually started in regards to some Tom Woods stuff, but it wasn't about this. It was actually just a regular thread about another post/topic by Tom Woods.
Good point, I did some searching and didn't find anything. I should qualify that I don't remember when this was, but I do remember it. I don't remember if he called anyone out by name.


For the record, are you a Jesse Benton supporter?
I have not invested time to draw any serious conclusions but I understand a lot of the criticism. I avoid drawing conclusions unless there is a specific and functional reason to do so as conclusions require lots of data and are drawn to support a specific decision at a specific time. That said, I do not think his text message to Peter Schiff regarding Paul Fest was appropriate. I did briefly talk with Jesse in 2008 a day or two before the RFTR but it was pretty inconsequential.



I've been told that a post of mine has been deleted in this thread. Is this true?
Let's please keep things on-topic. From the OP:

Discussion ground rules:
* The site guidelines apply, please re-read them: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989
* On-topic discussion is strictly limited to positives and negatives to Jesse Benton's professional services and his performance history. Off-topic comments will be deleted.
* Any attacks against Jesse's character are not allowed, stick to issues of Jesse's professional performance. Anything that can be legally viewed as slander or a false attack on Jesse's reputation will not be tolerated.
* Cite sources for all information. If the information is just that "someone told me", that's fine, but state it as such. Discussion on the validity of sources is on-topic.
* Let people draw their own conclusions, there is no value in trying to force yours on others. You must educate people to that point.

Thank you.

newbitech
11-16-2014, 01:20 AM
I've heard these things.

Benton was never a part of any campaign until he hooked up with Ron Paul's granddaughter.

supposedly Kent Snyder said of hiring Benton in 2007,

"He had no knowledge of Ron Paul, he was unemployed and affordable."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93961174/Who-is-Jesse-Benton

CPUd
11-16-2014, 01:27 AM
Jesse Benton has contributed financially to Ted Cruz for 1000 in 2012.


Search for Benton, Jesse

http://www.politicalmoneyline.com/tr/tr_MG_indivdonor.aspx?td=1_0

This would be during the time when Ron Paul endorsed Cruz over Dewhurst.

newbitech
11-16-2014, 01:38 AM
anyone want to bump this? http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?75945-Open-letter-to-Kent-Snyder-Low-Moore-Jesse-Benton-Joe-Seehusen-et-al

It's probably relevant somehow to this discussion since Benton is credited for his work with online grassroots.

invisible
11-16-2014, 02:14 AM
I have not invested time to draw any serious conclusions but I understand a lot of the criticism. I avoid drawing conclusions unless there is a specific and functional reason to do so as conclusions require lots of data and are drawn to support a specific decision at a specific time. That said, I do not think his text message to Peter Schiff regarding Paul Fest was appropriate. I did briefly talk with Jesse in 2008 a day or two before the RFTR but it was pretty inconsequential.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who has remained neutral, and feels that they don't have all of the required data to reach a conclusion. As I've said, the argument against benton is pretty convincing, but I still have yet to hear any sort of logical argument in favor of him - that doesn't mean one does not exist, though, since it obviously does (as indicated by his continued involvement since 2008).

Champ
11-16-2014, 03:19 AM
Jesse Benton on Rand Paul 2016 campaign staff? Please, don't do it.

If you want to pit Tom Woods integrity and transparency against Jesse Benton, I will take Tom Woods 100 times out of 100.

Anyone that was paying even a small amount of attention during 2011 and 2012 knows what Jesse Benton is.

Demigod
11-16-2014, 04:34 AM
Lets play a game, I'll go first:

Add something to this list that you don't like about Jesse Benton

1) He's Facing Federal Election Fraud Charges
2) He's defended by Matt Collins.
3.Born in 1977 ,Benton's political career began in 2000 when he worked with the Republican National Committee.Basically straight from college into politics not a single day of work.And he earns paychecks in the 100K range from family members campaign funds on merit alone of course.


Because nothing says fiscal conservative as much as nepotism.

Jeremy
11-16-2014, 06:41 AM
What if he manages the Senate campaign? Someone has to do that.

newbitech
11-16-2014, 07:50 AM
What if he manages the Senate campaign? Someone has to do that.

parallel campaigns headquartered in Louisville is already going to be controversial. May as well let Benton march on over there with Aqua Buddha in one hand a confederate flag in the other, some freshly printed newsletters tucked under arm, quoting the entire next season of house of cards in his arrival speech while offering Nascar drivers $10,000 every time they mention Stand with Rand on tv.

acptulsa
11-16-2014, 08:33 AM
Perhaps Matt Collins can PM the screenshots to someone like Gunny with the understanding that they won't be posted publicly.

Why?

Tom isn't applying for any jobs.

Just because Collins is trying to make this thread about Tom Woods doesn't mean his name is in the thread title. We all know Collins would deflect if he had to deflect the blame onto his own man. He doesn't seem to be able to refrain from deflecting. But about all that Top Secret Ancient History that Collins alleges he has will tell us is whether Benton failed to make a molehill out of a mountain or succeeded in making a mountain out of a molehill.

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 10:19 AM
Anyway, every candidate gets reams and reams of unsolicited public criticism all the time from people who don't know what they are talking about, from random people online, to talking heads on TV, and from supporters and detractors. That's fine and is to be expected, but when someone who is seen as a leader of the movement (Tom) openly and publicly criticizes the campaign it actively undermines the campaign effort. Plus it is in poor taste and rude.


Also, just because someone does not do something for a living doesn't mean that every opinion they have about that thing is automatically invalid. As I have written before, some of the things Tom suggested was pretty good, some were outright childish. But why didn't Tom just pick up the phone and talk to Ron about it instead of going public? Not only was it arrogant but it was insulting too.



Again, I am sure when you are in a position like Benton's, you receive all sorts of unsolicited criticism all the time, and some of it is bound to be bad criticism and some of it is bound to be good criticism. It's not a black and white issue. But I would bet a lot of money that in 2016, there is going to be a hell of a lot more unsolicited criticism to the Rand Paul campaign. Do we really want Benton handling it the same way he did in Ron Paul 2012?Nothing wrong with criticism (although people who don't know what they are talking about shouldn't offer it), but when it is from someone on our own team, it should be kept private and not posted all over the Internet for everyone to see.

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 10:20 AM
:rolleyes: Did Tom attack the candidate?

How in the world was a possible attack against Jesse Benton (not substantiated) damaging to anyone except Jesse Benton?Because undermining the campaign hurts the candidate. Duh...

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 10:22 AM
It's ok for Jesse to air grievances about Tom because Jesse is "on the inside".Did Jesse air grievances publicly about Tom Woods? I don't recall that he did.


Just like it's ok for the establishment to hate the grassroots and publish their grievances, but the grassroots are expected to hold their tongue because "the democrat is worse". :rolleyes:Uh no, that's not how it works, nice try.

Carlybee
11-16-2014, 10:34 AM
Because undermining the campaign hurts the candidate. Duh...


If that's the case then the things Jesse did to undermine the campaign pretty much drove the nail in the coffin.

jjdoyle
11-16-2014, 10:37 AM
Did Jesse air grievances publicly about Tom Woods? I don't recall that he did.

Was Tom Woods the one in charge of a campaign that lied to supporters for months wasting their money, and more importantly their time? I don't recall that he was. IMO....

Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because he has (mod edit)
Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because under his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than RICK SANTORUM in 2012.
Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because under his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than NEWT GINGRICH in 2012.
Jesse Benton showed in 2012, he didn't know how to tailor a political message to HELP HIS CANDIDATE WIN.
When in charge, Jesse Benton didn't know how to guide the energy of the grassroots, and through his own actions and the actions of Ron Paul 2012, and instead was busy spraying Roundup everywhere trying to kill the grassroots.
Under Jesse Benton's leadership, Ron Paul 2012 wasted MILLIONS OF SUPPORTERS' DOLLARS and more importantly (and unfortunately) WASTED MONTHS OF THEIR LIVES.
Under Jesse Benton's leadership, Ron Paul 2012's official website was allowed to try, but FAILED, to defend an endorsement of Mitt Romney. A big stick in the eye to actual liberty activists and grassroots supporters that had given their own money and time to try and GET RON PAUL ELECTED.

But, as is evidenced by everything we know, Ron Paul 2012 wasn't trying to win the nomination from February 2012 to May 2012, and instead was simply staying in the race to try and help Mitt Romney win the nomination smoothly, and to try and get Mitt Romney to pickup some Ron Paul supporters, which is why the RNC allowed a Ron Paul tribute video, Rand Paul a speech, and Jack Hunter's garbage use of RonPaul2012.com to defend a Mitt Romney endorsement.

acptulsa
11-16-2014, 10:42 AM
Just like it's ok for the establishment to hate the grassroots and publish their grievances, but the grassroots are expected to hold their tongue because "the democrat is worse". :rolleyes:


Uh no, that's not how it works, nice try.

You should know. You've tried and failed often enough. Wish I had a nickel for each post you've made in an attempt to nag us into behaving just like good little sycophant elephants.


Did Jesse air grievances publicly about Tom Woods? I don't recall that he did.

What? We're back on topic? Sort of?

Well, then. I've never known someone to go public with information from within an organization unless they have tried to get the issue in question addressed by people from up the food chain within the organization. Whistleblowers generally at least try to figure out who within will want to do the right thing before doing an end run outside the hierarchy.

Now, most of us are inclined to give Ron Paul benefit of our doubts. So, the question becomes, why didn't Tom Woods 'pick up the phone' and call Ron Paul? Was Benton running a Byzantine labyrinth of compartmentalization? Because I'm sorry, Matt, but the fact that you suggested that Woods should have 'picked up the phone' is not proof to me that he even had Ron Paul's phone number.

In any case, I don't see how this could possibly be an equal enough relationship to make judging the two men by the same yardstick viable. If an official of the administration goes public, he or she is being a whistleblower, doing an end run around Obama, and likely reacting to a lack of two way communication from the top down, and maybe causing harm because there might be reasons he or she isn't privy to why secrecy is necessary. If Obama goes public, he's running a transparent administration (for a change). Completely different situations. So, no, of course Benton didn't go public. That's just silly.

I think we'd be unwise to tap people who are outside the machine, then fail to give them room for a 'learning curve'. Sometimes you just have to learn what not to do before you can learn what to do. And the experienced people in this field are likely to be as resistant to the 'outside the box' tactics that we used to successfully break through the 'He Who Must Not Be Named' wall we encountered, or are likely to 'owe' the status quo so many 'favors' that we can't trust the person not to torpedo us from the inside, or both. But if we limit ourselves to outsiders, we have to give these outsiders time and room to prove to us that they're learning from their inevitable missteps.

Is this so with Benton? Is it within the realm of a 'learning curve misstep' to do something that lands the campaign in court? Is the court appearance strictly the result of a frameup?

I think we need a lot more transparency in order to make a rational decision on the matter. But, you know, the lack of transparency in and of itself is an indication of something.

Maybe it's impossible for Rand Paul and Benton to coexist in the same extended family without Benton being considered a 'consultant'. Maybe if they didn't do that, the two men can't even enjoy Carol's turkey from the same table. But as things stand, I'd be dismayed to see Benton take any more active a role in Rand's campaign than that.

CaptUSA
11-16-2014, 11:20 AM
Bottom line, Matt...

Can you say, without a doubt, that Benton won't become a topic of the campaign? Can you say that Rand won't have to defend him in some regard? Can you say that Rand won't have to cut ties in an embarrassing kerfuffle? Are you willing to put your entire career on that line? (This seems to be a big concern of yours.)

Past history should give you pause. Obviously, you can't be 100% sure about anyone, but Benton has a track record. That's what concerns many of us - not this petty personality conflict in which you want us to engage. Most of us don't care about your internal soap opera. We don't want the campaign to get derailed by answering questions about this guy. We'd like to focus on the issues because that's where we win.

acptulsa
11-16-2014, 11:20 AM
Was Tom Woods the one in charge of a campaign that lied to supporters for months wasting their money, and more importantly their time? I don't recall that he was. IMO....

Yeah, well, Collins doesn't know how not to deflect.


Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because he has Matt Collins defending him.

Now, now. Rand Paul has Collins defending him, too, from time to time. That simply isn't Rand Paul's fault.


Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because under his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than RICK SANTORUM in 2012.
Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because under his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than NEWT GINGRICH in 2012.

You know, Rupert Murdoch had a little something to do with this as well.


Jesse Benton showed in 2012, he didn't know how to tailor a political message to HELP HIS CANDIDATE WIN.

And so did Ron Paul, for that matter. I'm very proud to say Ron Paul picked up a tip from me, or from us (I'm the first person I saw doing it) when he challenged the other candidates to a bicycle race in response to questions about his age. I wish he had acted on more of the good ideas we threw his direction gratis. But in the end, those were Ron Paul's campaigns, and he was part of the reason for their failure.


When in charge, Jesse Benton didn't know how to guide the energy of the grassroots, and through his own actions and the actions of Ron Paul 2012, and instead was busy spraying Roundup everywhere trying to kill the grassroots.

Not that anyone did, or even knew how to ride herd on us cats. But you're right. We didn't even get the impression that he was trying. At least Ron Paul himself showed us a modicum of appreciation and affection.

(Mod edit)


Bottom line, Matt...

Can you say, without a doubt, that Benton won't become a topic of the campaign? Can you say that Rand won't have to defend him in some regard? Can you say that Rand won't have to cut ties in an embarrassing kerfuffle? Are you willing to put your entire career on that line? (This seems to be a big concern of yours.)

Past history should give you pause. Obviously, you can't be 100% sure about anyone, but Benton has a track record. That's what concerns many of us - not this petty personality conflict in which you want us to engage. Most of us don't care about your internal soap opera. We don't want the campaign to get derailed by answering questions about this guy. We'd like to focus on the issues because that's where we win.

The Bottom Line. This and the fact that Benton's learning curve leeway is all used up and I'm having a hard time figuring out what, if anything, he has learned.

jjdoyle
11-16-2014, 11:25 AM
So, your suggestion is we cry over spilled milk until Kingdom Come. No. Sorry.

You've already proven yourself to be a (mod edit)

Jesse Benton was part of a campaign that raised more money than the campaigns of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, and still couldn't win a single state's popular vote. If Jesse Benton couldn't figure out a strategy to win, he shouldn't have wasted months of time and millions of dollars of the grassroots supporters helping Mitt Romney win the nomination.

acptulsa
11-16-2014, 11:28 AM
You've already proven yourself to be a (mod edit)

Jesse Benton was part of a campaign that raised more money than the campaigns of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, and still couldn't win a single state's popular vote. If Jesse Benton couldn't figure out a strategy to win, he shouldn't have wasted months of time and millions of dollars of the grassroots supporters helping Mitt Romney win the nomination.

We figured out how to win. All we had to do was take over Fox News.

Unfortunately, we never figured out how to do that.

(Mod edit)

So, can you give us a good reason why we should cry over spilled milk until Kingdom Come? Other than you have this stuck in your craw, and want to vent about it forever, which is not a good reason.

Edit: If, as has been alleged, only the King's Men are allowed to contribute nothing to the discussion but rants and invasive insults, and do it without repercussions, then I guess we know who the King's Man here really is...

CaptUSA
11-16-2014, 11:38 AM
It's a fact you're a (mod edit)


Uncalled for. Mods will deal with this.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989




Mod note- yes we will, please keep on topic, this isn't about other members. Attack bad information or analysis, not people.

jjdoyle
11-16-2014, 11:41 AM
Uncalled for. Mods will deal with this.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989

No, it's actually 100% fact based on his posts yesterday where he repeatedly lied, over and over and over. Blatantly.


We figured out how to win. All we had to do was take over Fox News.

Unfortunately, we never figured out how to do that.

(Mod edit)

So, can you give us a good reason why we should cry over spilled milk until Kingdom Come? Other than you have this stuck in your craw, and want to vent about it forever, which is not a good reason.

Edit: If, as has been alleged, only the King's Men are allowed to contribute nothing to the discussion but rants and invasive insults, and do it without repercussions, then I guess we know who the King's Man here really is...
(mod edit)

Bryan
11-16-2014, 11:47 AM
If you see someone as not being honest or wrong then post the countering facts that show that, do not just name call. Thank you.

NewRightLibertarian
11-16-2014, 12:04 PM
As far as I'm concerned, Rand bringing on Jesse Benton to his campaign team will demonstrate cronyism, nepotism and a lack of quality judgment on Rand's part. It will be a red flag for any dedicated liberty activist that their time would be better spent on other endeavors.

Carlybee
11-16-2014, 12:20 PM
The fact that he was forced to resign from McConnell's campaign due to allegations of shady dealings is a red flag because the competition will use every negative thing out there to try and smear Rand.

invisible
11-16-2014, 12:22 PM
We figured out how to win. All we had to do was take over Fox News.

Unfortunately, we never figured out how to do that.

Maybe donation efforts can be directed to buy off frank. Imagine actually cheering the guy, rather than wanting to scream FU every time his face appears on the screen after a debate.


Hey Matt! Could you please stop talking about Tom Woods, and start talking about what benton brings to the table, that is unique enough to be worth the division of supporters? You seem to be the only person out there in benton's corner, so I'd really like to hear why benton is uniquely essential, rather than why Tom Woods is bad. An attack on Woods is not an argument in favor of benton - to think that it is, just might be considered a logical fallacy.

acptulsa
11-16-2014, 12:23 PM
As far as I'm concerned, Rand bringing on Jesse Benton to his campaign team will demonstrate cronyism, nepotism and a lack of quality judgment on Rand's part. It will be a red flag for any dedicated liberty activist that their time would be better spent on other endeavors.


The fact that he was forced to resign from McConnell's campaign due to allegations of shady dealings is a red flag because the competition will use every negative thing out there to try and smear Rand.

Can't add to that. Can't argue with it either. I'm out.

[/thread]

Crashland
11-16-2014, 12:25 PM
It's a good thing we have enough to go on that we don't have to decide this question by comparing the character of those who defend him to the character of those who denigrate him.

Yes. The fact that Matt Collins defends Benton is not a valid argument against Benton.

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 12:42 PM
Why did Benton go to work for McConnell? Think about it....


Just throwing that out there...

NewRightLibertarian
11-16-2014, 12:45 PM
Why did Benton go to work for McConnell? Think about it....


Just throwing that out there...

The almighty dollar? Using his position with the Ron Paul campaign to secure himself another high-paying prestigious political position?

If it was to help Rand, that sure backfired after he was forced to resign in disgrace.

newbitech
11-16-2014, 12:51 PM
comment 12 is a good read. Wonder who "Brad" is.

http://thecrossedpond.com/2012/09/13/jesse-benton-to-run-mitch-mcconnell-2014-reelection-campaign/

Crashland
11-16-2014, 12:51 PM
Why did Benton go to work for McConnell? Think about it....


Just throwing that out there...

Please actually tell us what your point is instead of having us try to figure out what you are claiming.

invisible
11-16-2014, 12:56 PM
Why did Benton go to work for McConnell? Think about it....


Just throwing that out there...

For the same reason that anybody accepts a job: to get paid, and make a living. Obvious answer is obvious.
The REAL question is: why did mcconnell offer benton the job? What did he bring to the table, that no one else could have done?

cajuncocoa
11-16-2014, 12:58 PM
I'm not going to make a case for or against Jesse Benton. It's all been said before. I wasn't positive about donating to a Rand Paul campaign anyway. Money's a little tighter right now, and I just don't feel the same as I did about his Dad. If Rand takes Jesse Benton on board, it will seal that decision for me.

newbitech
11-16-2014, 01:01 PM
to Benton's credit, here is an early video of him talking about the internet strategy in May 2007. He sounds and looks pro here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ9NMbONSWU

Demigod
11-16-2014, 01:03 PM
Why did Benton go to work for McConnell? Think about it....


Just throwing that out there...

Because Rand got him a job in his deal with McConnell.Please don't tell me that Benton was the best the establishment could find with their almost unlimited funds.

Please tell me Collins what is that you work and have worked ? Of course just trowing it out there.

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 01:03 PM
Well, then. I've never known someone to go public with information from within an organization unless they have tried to get the issue in question addressed by people from up the food chain within the organization. Whistleblowers generally at least try to figure out who within will want to do the right thing before doing an end run outside the hierarchy.What whistleblowing? You are confused, what Tom did wasn't whistleblowing, it was undermining the campaign openly and publicly. If they didn't take his private suggestions, then there was a reason for that. Tom was too arrogant or dense to understand this apparently.





Because I'm sorry, Matt, but the fact that you suggested that Woods should have 'picked up the phone' is not proof to me that he even had Ron Paul's phone number.I assure you he does... if you don't believe me look here:


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=763301790772&set=a.763286017382.2135438.84101326&type=1&theater



But, you know, the lack of transparency in and of itself is an indication of something.No, actually its not. Just because the Generals don't let their plans be known to the public doesn't mean their plans are nefarious. :rolleyes:

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 01:08 PM
The almighty dollar? Using his position with the Ron Paul campaign to secure himself another high-paying prestigious political position?


For the same reason that anybody accepts a job: to get paid, and make a living.

Nope... Jesse was set... he could've continued working at C4L, or any other of Ron's organizations. Or he could've gotten a job outside of Ron's world making mega bucks.

It should be obvious to anyone now that Jesse went to work for Mitch because he was trying to position Rand for a 2016 Presidential run. And it paid off since Mitch has already endorsed Rand for President.



Seriously people, try to think through things instead of letting your emotions do the work :rolleyes:

newbitech
11-16-2014, 01:10 PM
another early interview also to Benton's credit. August 2007. He was certainly out on the front lines early and seems to have had a very good grasp on what it would take to get the internet fired up.

An easy argument could probably be made that his vision for using the internet (assuming he was the early driver for Ron Paul's message online) is what lit the early brush fires.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR7bN5DnLSo

Demigod
11-16-2014, 01:14 PM
Nope... Jesse was set... he could've continued working at C4L, or any other of Ron's organizations. Or he could've gotten a job outside of Ron's world making mega bucks.

It should be obvious to anyone now that Jesse went to work for Mitch because he was trying to position Rand for a 2016 Presidential run. And it paid off since Mitch has already endorsed Rand for President.



Seriously people, try to think through things instead of letting your emotions do the work :rolleyes:

I am really glad you wrote that .I am glad you managed to make enough money in politics to go around to set all of you for life.

newbitech
11-16-2014, 01:17 PM
here is Collins admitting that Benton is "incompetent"

He blames Benton for Ron Paul getting trashed on the radio. Wonder what that was all about?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?48366-Who-is-Jesse-Benton-Can-someone-post-bio-and-pic&p=545903&viewfull=1#post545903

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 01:20 PM
here is Collins admitting that Benton is "incompetent"

He blames Benton for Ron Paul getting trashed on the radio. Wonder what that was all about?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?48366-Who-is-Jesse-Benton-Can-someone-post-bio-and-pic&p=545903&viewfull=1#post545903


Yep that was back in '07.... He has grown quite a bit and become much more experienced since then (as have I).

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 01:21 PM
I am glad you managed to make enough money in politics to go around to set all of you for life.As long as one isn't a candidate, there is nothing wrong with making a ton of money in politics. It's all marketing, and when people are good at what they do, then they are well rewarded.

Crashland
11-16-2014, 01:21 PM
Nope... Jesse was set... he could've continued working at C4L, or any other of Ron's organizations. Or he could've gotten a job outside of Ron's world making mega bucks.

It should be obvious to anyone now that Jesse went to work for Mitch because he was trying to position Rand for a 2016 Presidential run. And it paid off since Mitch has already endorsed Rand for President.



Seriously people, try to think through things instead of letting your emotions do the work :rolleyes:

So you are saying that Benton working for McConnell's campaign is a plus for Benton because it helped bring McConnell on board with Rand's 2016 run? This might be the first actual positive claim about Benton we have heard yet. I am inclined to agree that regardless of Benton's intent, Benton working for McConnell probably did help somewhat in that regard to get Mitch closer to the Pauls. This doesn't really change anything though about the negatives about him actually being involved with Rand 2016.

acptulsa
11-16-2014, 01:22 PM
What whistleblowing? You are confused, what Tom did wasn't whistleblowing, it was undermining the campaign openly and publicly. If they didn't take his private suggestions, then there was a reason for that. Tom was too arrogant or dense to understand this apparently.

Now there's a fine line. You do realize how much you sound like McCain talking about Snowden, right?


I assure you he does... if you don't believe me look here:

I have been on the boats of people whose cell numbers I did not have.


No, actually its not. Just because the Generals don't let their plans be known to the public doesn't mean their plans are nefarious. :rolleyes:

Generals generally should have nefarious plans. But I did say it was indicative of something, and it is. What it is indicative of may be open to interpretation. But it is indicative of something.


Nope... Jesse was set... he could've continued working at C4L, or any other of Ron's organizations. Or he could've gotten a job outside of Ron's world making mega bucks.

It should be obvious to anyone now that Jesse went to work for Mitch because he was trying to position Rand for a 2016 Presidential run. And it paid off since Mitch has already endorsed Rand for President.



Seriously people, try to think through things instead of letting your emotions do the work :rolleyes:

Hm. Benson had to have been working for McConnell to get his endorsement for Rand, even though he was 'making mega bucks' outside of the Paul 'world', and even though it would look mighty strange and be mighty impolitic for the Senator not to endorse the popular junior senator of his own state and his own party. Yet you aren't actively trying to get us to 'let [our] emotions do the work' by playing this mere theory up as some kind of fun and amusing conspiracy.

Whatever you say, Matt.

newbitech
11-16-2014, 01:28 PM
here is an audio link from Jan 2008, with Benton and Ron Paul's grandson Matt Payeatt (Benton married his sister) talking about money and getting paid to staff.

http://mp3.rprradio.com/misc/32KRPR_Benton_Speaks.mp3

newbitech
11-16-2014, 01:35 PM
Yep that was back in '07.... He has grown quite a bit and become much more experienced since then (as have I).

as have most of us ;)

It's impossible for all of us to be part of that inner circle although we'd all love to be, see the audio I posted where Benton answers the question of what its like to be in that inner circle.

These are legit questions Matt. I've met you many years ago, and it felt really good to be able to meet Dr. Paul (I have several times). I am sure there is a lot of envy for Mr. Benton's unique position.

My concern is that blind loyalty looks a lot like a political dynasty. Unfortunately, people aren't going to want to just believe that Rand and the Paul clan and the people they surround themselves with are any different from any other political dynasty.

I really don't know that Benton has any unique or special skills that go beyond just being in the right place at the right time.

I am sure he's a good guy outside of the political realm. Right now, he seems to be a political stick of dynamite and maybe Rand should think twice before picking up that risk?

Benton seems to have made some mistakes in spite of his growth and learning. He is human after all.

Demigod
11-16-2014, 01:39 PM
As long as one isn't a candidate, there is nothing wrong with making a ton of money in politics. It's all marketing, and when people are good at what they do, then they are well rewarded.

Of course there isn't and I wish you good luck.I just hope that most here will be able to go over their emotional and financial involvement so far and see the truth.

presence
11-16-2014, 01:54 PM
..


Add something to this list that you don't like about Jesse Benton

1) He's Facing Federal Election Fraud Charges
2) Born in 1977 ,Benton's political career began in 2000 when he worked with the Republican National Committee.
3) Basically straight from college into politics with paychecks in the 100K range from family members campaign funds.
4) It's ok for Jesse to air grievances about Tom because Jesse is "on the inside"
5) Rand Paul dropped Chris Hightower in 2009 for less. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463121-The-case-for-and-against-Jesse-Benton-s-professional-campaign-involvement/page3
6) Jesse's definition of winning and what one must do to 'win' is exactly opposite of what the grassroot's definition of 'winning' is and what one must do to 'win'
7) Jessee sought to co-opt grassroot power and attempted to use it to further his own ends
8) I do not think his text message to Peter Schiff regarding Paul Fest was appropriate.
9) Benton was never a part of any campaign until he hooked up with Ron Paul's granddaughter. 2007, "He had no knowledge of Ron Paul, he was unemployed and affordable."
10) If you want to pit Tom Woods integrity and transparency against Jesse Benton, I will take Tom Woods 100 times out of 100.
11)undermining the campaign hurts the candidate. Duh... Jesse pretty much drove the nail in the coffin.
12) Rand bringing on Jesse Benton to his campaign team will demonstrate cronyism, nepotism and a lack of quality judgment
13) his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than RICK SANTORUM in 2012.
14) his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than NEWT GINGRICH in 2012.
15) Jesse Benton showed in 2012, he didn't know how to tailor a political message to HELP HIS CANDIDATE WIN.
16) Benton didn't know how to guide the energy of the grassroots
17) busy spraying Roundup everywhere trying to kill the grassroots.
18) wasted MILLIONS OF SUPPORTERS' DOLLARS and more importantly (and unfortunately) WASTED MONTHS OF THEIR LIVES.
19) use of RonPaul2012.com to defend a Mitt Romney endorsement.
20) the lack of transparency in and of itself is an indication of something.
21) Can you say that Rand won't have to defend him in some regard? Can you say that Rand won't have to cut ties in an embarrassing kerfuffle?
22) Benton's learning curve leeway is all used up and I'm having a hard time figuring out what, if anything, he has learned.
23) raised more money than the campaigns of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, and still couldn't win a single state's popular vote.
24) time and millions of dollars of the grassroots supporters helping Mitt Romney win the nomination

Carlybee
11-16-2014, 01:59 PM
Nope... Jesse was set... he could've continued working at C4L, or any other of Ron's organizations. Or he could've gotten a job outside of Ron's world making mega bucks.

It should be obvious to anyone now that Jesse went to work for Mitch because he was trying to position Rand for a 2016 Presidential run. And it paid off since Mitch has already endorsed Rand for President.



Seriously people, try to think through things instead of letting your emotions do the work :rolleyes:


The jury is still out on what concessions were made in that deal. Why would McConnell endorse anyone for president who hasn't even announced yet? What deal was made between them and the establishment? Drop out and endorse Romney in exchange for a future endorsement? Water under the bridge now but it should help you to understand that the grassroots didn't appreciate being thrown under the bus and it should be clear to you why very few people here think Benton is an asset. If he was willing to do whatever it took to secure Rand a place for 2016 what makes you think he wouldn't turn on a dime if it was politically expedient in the future. I'm not even saying this is how it went down but it sure looks that way. Add the bribery scandal on top of that. One reason I was a Ron Paul supporter was due to his honesty and integrity. Those are things that should be rewarded with loyalty.

Occam's Banana
11-16-2014, 02:19 PM
As long as one isn't a candidate, there is nothing wrong with making a ton of money in politics. It's all marketing, and when people are good at what they do, then they are well rewarded.

The lawyers of General Dynamics and the lobbyists at Archer-Daniels-Midland heartily approve and enthusiastically endorse this message ...

Brian4Liberty
11-16-2014, 02:42 PM
The fact that he was forced to resign from McConnell's campaign due to allegations of shady dealings is a red flag because the competition will use every negative thing out there to try and smear Rand.

You beat me to it. That is a fact that will have to be taken into account by Rand and his campaign.

Brian4Liberty
11-16-2014, 03:07 PM
Bryan, thanks for this thread, and the opportunity to actually have this much-needed discussion.

I personally am neutral on benton. I've met him in passing a couple times, and he certainly seemed like a nice enough guy. The benton-bashers' case and positions are well known. We all know about the bad things he has done, and the good things he hasn't done. Those against benton have made a good argument. He has proved to be a controversial figure who has caused a large division among Ron and Rand's supporters.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I've never met him, and do not have any inside information. I'm not sure of what roles he has played in the various campaigns, other than his official titles. It's nearly impossible to know what really goes on unless someone is directly and intimately involved. Hard to pass judgement from the outside.

We do know he had to resign from the McConnell campaign.


However, what I'm interested in hearing is the counter argument. Yes, he's family for Ron and Rand. He is apparently trusted by them. This is why I am still neutral. But being a trusted family member is obviously not enough to qualify him for his position. There is some other reason why Ron and Rand feel he is essential to their campaign staff. My question is, what is it? What does benton bring to the table, that makes his inclusion worth the controversy and division among supporters? What is he able to do, that someone else without the controversy attached to them is not able to do?

No one seems to be able to actually answer this.

Good question, that can only be answered by Ron or Rand. He has been involved in multiple campaigns, so there must be something worthwhile about hiring him up to this point in their judgement.

We know that he was successful as Rand's campaign manager in 2010.

Apparently McConnell thought that he was "best in the business at building and organizing conservative grassroots movements". Obviously there are some disagreements with that in the actual grassroots.


“We’re committed to running a presidential-level campaign in Kentucky and that starts with a presidential campaign manager,” McConnell said in a prepared statement. “Jesse is literally the best in the business at building and organizing conservative grassroots movements and I’m thrilled he’s chosen to return to Kentucky to lead my campaign.”
...
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/mitch-mcconnell-hires-ron-pauls-campaign-manager/

erowe1
11-16-2014, 03:30 PM
Why did Benton go to work for McConnell? Think about it....


Just throwing that out there...

According to Benton, McConnell is the best boss he ever had.

This is because of McConnell's bill to postpone automatic spending cuts.

Think about that....

Brian4Liberty
11-16-2014, 04:00 PM
So you are saying that Benton working for McConnell's campaign is a plus for Benton because it helped bring McConnell on board with Rand's 2016 run? This might be the first actual positive claim about Benton we have heard yet. I am inclined to agree that regardless of Benton's intent, Benton working for McConnell probably did help somewhat in that regard to get Mitch closer to the Pauls. This doesn't really change anything though about the negatives about him actually being involved with Rand 2016.

It seems like Rand and McConnell could "trade" endorsements without McConnell hiring Benton. No doubt the hiring did bring the camps closer, which should benefit Rand.

Obviously, McConnell needed some credibility and contacts with the Kentucky Tea Party grassroots. He probably believed that hiring Benton would bring that.

Related article:


Mitch McConnell's campaign manager resigns after Iowa bribery scandal deepens
By Sam Youngman - August 29, 2014

Jesse Benton, the campaign manager for U.S. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, will resign his post as a bribery scandal from the 2012 presidential campaign threatens to envelop Benton and become a major distraction for McConnell's campaign.

Benton told the Herald-Leader that he met with McConnell on Friday afternoon and offered his resignation, which McConnell "reluctantly accepted."

Benton said he offered his resignation, effective Saturday, with a "heavy heart."

He maintained his innocence, faulting "inaccurate press accounts and unsubstantiated media rumors."

"This decision breaks my heart, but I know it is the right thing for Mitch, for Kentucky and for the country," Benton said.

Benton's name has surfaced in connection to a bribery scandal dating to his time as former U.S. Rep. Ron Paul's political director during the 2012 presidential election.

On Wednesday, former Iowa state Sen. Kent Sorenson pleaded guilty to accepting $73,000 from Paul's campaign in exchange for his endorsement and to obstruction of justice for lying about his involvement.

Sorenson's guilty plea included two sealed documents, which could threaten to involve Benton.

In a statement provided first to the Herald-Leader, Benton said there "is no more important cause for both Kentucky, my new home I have come to love, and our country than electing Mitch McConnell Majority Leader of the United States Senate."

"I believe this deep in my bones, and I would never allow anything or anyone to get in the way," Benton wrote. "That includes myself."

Benton said in his statement that "there have been inaccurate press accounts and unsubstantiated media rumors about me and my role in past campaigns that are politically motivated, unfair and, most importantly, untrue."

But Benton said he found it more "troubling" that the rumors "risk unfairly undermining and becoming a distraction to this re-election campaign."

"Working for Mitch McConnell is one of the great honors of my life," Benton said. "He is a friend, a mentor and a great man this commonwealth desperately needs. I cannot, and will not, allow any possibility that my circumstances will affect the voters' ability to hear his message and assess his record. This election is far too important and the stakes way too high."
...
Stephen Voss, a political science professor at the University of Kentucky, said the resignation probably won't have any immediate impact on McConnell's campaign organization since Benton has played a less visible role than McConnell's senior adviser, Josh Holmes, in recent months.

"Benton already served his role of helping McConnell appeal to the conservative base during the party primary, and a lot of campaign responsibilities had already passed from his shoulders," Voss said.

"The problem with the scandal is the negative attention it brings to the McConnell campaign, which will come regardless of whether it turns out Benton really did anything wrong," Voss said. "Any whiff of scandal within a campaign organization can bring criticism, because opponents suggest that it reflects on the judgment of the candidate who appointed the individual."
...
When Benton joined the McConnell camp, observers viewed it as a ploy by McConnell to quiet a restless Tea Party faction and win favor with Rand Paul.

That view was reinforced last year when a secret recording of Benton was released in which he said he was "holding my nose" working for McConnell in an effort to better position Rand Paul for a 2016 White House run.

When the tape became public, Benton expressed his regret for letting down McConnell, who is vying for a sixth term.

Earlier Friday, the McConnell campaign said it would be inappropriate for it to comment on the ongoing Iowa investigation.

"Sen. McConnell obviously has nothing to do with the Iowa presidential caucus or this investigation, so it would be inappropriate for his campaign to comment on this situation," McConnell campaign spokeswoman Allison Moore said in a statement.
...
"His presence in the McConnell camp was more of a bridge to Rand Paul's wing of the party than a reflection of the minority leader's longtime political organization," Voss said. "The photo of Benton holding his nose as he stands next to McConnell, a joke that nonetheless illustrated the distance between them, has gone from being a liability to being a defense for Team Mitch."
...
http://www.kentucky.com/2014/08/29/3402571_mitch-mcconnells-campaign-manager.html

NewRightLibertarian
11-16-2014, 04:21 PM
Nope... Jesse was set... he could've continued working at C4L, or any other of Ron's organizations. Or he could've gotten a job outside of Ron's world making mega bucks.

It should be obvious to anyone now that Jesse went to work for Mitch because he was trying to position Rand for a 2016 Presidential run. And it paid off since Mitch has already endorsed Rand for President.



Seriously people, try to think through things instead of letting your emotions do the work :rolleyes:

Benton was forced to resign from the McConnell campaign in disgrace. How is that paying off? And sorry, but nobody's believing that the corrupt crooked oaf who went down in a ball of flames was somehow in high demand after mismanaging the Ron Paul campaign. Perhaps that type of talk flies in your little bubble of politically-motivated butt kissers looking to make a buck off of Ron Paul, but grassroots folks here are not delusional and refuse to swallow that obvious BS.

NoOneButPaul
11-16-2014, 04:35 PM
Based on the Sorensen issue alone I think he should be far, far, away from Rand's campaign.

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 04:45 PM
Why would McConnell endorse anyone for president who hasn't even announced yet?

- Mitch likes Rand
- Mitch likes the idea that someone from KY could be the GOP nominee for President
- Mitch knows that Rand could've given him a primary fight that could've cost him his political career...


Mitch does Rand a lot more good as Sen Maj Ldr than as some unelected guy on the street. Mitch is useful to Rand. And Mitch's re-election in large part depended on Rand.


Think it through.




What deal was made between them and the establishment? Drop out and endorse Romney in exchange for a future endorsement? Rand had already promised to endorse the Republican nominee for President long before 2012 ever happened.



what makes you think he wouldn't turn on a dime if it was politically expedient in the future. Because he is family and he is very loyal to his family.

angelatc
11-16-2014, 04:56 PM
Having read the link provided by erowe I can say that some of Tom's advice in this particular instance was not actually too bad. But why didn't he just call up Ron himself and talk to him about it? Why tell Ron what to do in front of everyone? It's a lack of tact.

Some of his other postings were just outright childish.

I was going to stay out, but I know for a fact that Tom Woods did call Ron Paul and talk to him. I was not on the calls, but I was on calls with Tom pretty much on a daily basis during those days. Benton's tantrum came totally out of left field.

I also know that Ron Paul was not bothered by Woods' criticisms.

So now that I have estalished that Tom and Ron were talking, why did Jesse not pick up the phone and talk to Tom?

I have dealt with the campaign, and my impression of Jesse is that he is a mealy mouthed little self important worm who hasn't actually won an election. Yes, I remember the Rand Paul campaign, but David Adams won that primary, and the general was pretty much a gimme.

mosquitobite
11-16-2014, 05:02 PM
I was campaign manager for a liberty candidate in 2012. I do not take credit for that win because I worked for an extremely popular candidate. How many campaign managers can people name as *THE REASON* a candidate won? No.

So the idea that Benton (or at least Collins) even wants to claim credit for Rand's 2010 Senate win frustrates me. A good campaign manager stays OUT of the spotlight. Benton fails on that notion. Most of his spotlight is negative.

presence
11-16-2014, 05:18 PM
1) He's Facing Federal Election Fraud Charges
2) Born in 1977 ,Benton's political career began in 2000 when he worked with the Republican National Committee.
3) Basically straight from college into politics with paychecks in the 100K range from family members campaign funds.
4) It's ok for Jesse to air grievances about Tom because Jesse is "on the inside"
5) Rand Paul dropped Chris Hightower in 2009 for less. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...olvement/page3
6) Jesse's definition of winning and what one must do to 'win' is exactly opposite of what the grassroot's definition of 'winning' is and what one must do to 'win'
7) Jessee sought to co-opt grassroot power and attempted to use it to further his own ends
8) I do not think his text message to Peter Schiff regarding Paul Fest was appropriate.
9) Benton was never a part of any campaign until he hooked up with Ron Paul's granddaughter. 2007, "He had no knowledge of Ron Paul, he was unemployed and affordable."
10) If you want to pit Tom Woods integrity and transparency against Jesse Benton, I will take Tom Woods 100 times out of 100.
11)undermining the campaign hurts the candidate. Duh... Jesse pretty much drove the nail in the coffin.
12) Rand bringing on Jesse Benton to his campaign team will demonstrate cronyism, nepotism and a lack of quality judgment
13) his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than RICK SANTORUM in 2012.
14) his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than NEWT GINGRICH in 2012.
15) Jesse Benton showed in 2012, he didn't know how to tailor a political message to HELP HIS CANDIDATE WIN.
16) Benton didn't know how to guide the energy of the grassroots
17) busy spraying Roundup everywhere trying to kill the grassroots.
18) wasted MILLIONS OF SUPPORTERS' DOLLARS and more importantly (and unfortunately) WASTED MONTHS OF THEIR LIVES.
19) use of RonPaul2012.com to defend a Mitt Romney endorsement.
20) the lack of transparency in and of itself is an indication of something.
21) Can you say that Rand won't have to defend him in some regard? Can you say that Rand won't have to cut ties in an embarrassing kerfuffle?
22) Benton's learning curve leeway is all used up and I'm having a hard time figuring out what, if anything, he has learned.
23) raised more money than the campaigns of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, and still couldn't win a single state's popular vote.
24) time and millions of dollars of the grassroots supporters helping Mitt Romney win the nomination
25) what makes you think he wouldn't turn on a dime if it was politically expedient in the future.
26) he is a mealy mouthed little self important worm who hasn't actually won an election.
27) A good campaign manager stays OUT of the spotlight. Benton fails on that notion. Most of his spotlight is negative.
28) We do know he had to resign from the McConnell campaign.
29) Based on the Sorensen issue alone I think he should be far, far, away
30) allegations of shady dealings is a red flag because the competition will use every negative thing out there to try and smear Rand.





I'll just take minutes... carry on

newbitech
11-16-2014, 05:41 PM
I'll just take minutes... carry on


I see you haven't added the, "seen wondering around D.C. recently with a young intern, NOT his wife". That was a rumor I had heard.

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 06:16 PM
I was going to stay out, but I know for a fact that Tom Woods did call Ron Paul and talk to him. I was not on the calls, but I was on calls with Tom pretty much on a daily basis during those days.Then why did he feel the need to post everything publicly if he was already talking to Ron? :rolleyes:


Benton's tantrum came totally out of left field.What "tantrum" are you talking about? :confused: It was Tom who threw a public fit over things.


I have dealt with the campaign, and my impression of Jesse is that he is a mealy mouthed little self important worm who hasn't actually won an election. Yes, I remember the Rand Paul campaign, but David Adams won that primary, and the general was pretty much a gimme.
You obviously don't have any clue what was going on behind the scenes there....

satchelmcqueen
11-16-2014, 06:19 PM
Why start this thread? :confused:

No one here has a say in the matter, and given some of the rampant immaturity and lack of understanding of how to actually run a serious campaign, it's a good thing.man, i have stayed out of this so far as to anything pertaining to what you have said, but come on now. i kinda see what youre saying about "no one here has a say in the matter", as in rand is the boss and we are not, BUT, if thats how it really is, then rand will have a problem. to what extent is to be determined. but actually we do have a say if jesse is involved or not via our support. lets not lose sight of that fact.

my take on this so far is this....jesse needs to bow out on his own for the good of the campaign, if that is even an issue as of now, and not take a chance of causing rand problems down the road. if the media still drills ron on the news letters, then rand has to see (as does jesse), that any involvement will hurt rands campaign.

it is very exciting to know that rand will probably run and run to win, and it would take a major shift in beliefs and character for me to not support rand, but if jesse is involved in any way, then i might just back away from this next election and just not participate. rand is my only choice and i hope that doesnt get ruined by bad decisions for campaign staff rolls.

thats my tiny bit of say....

Natural Citizen
11-16-2014, 06:23 PM
Frankly, I'm far more concerned with other elements of a supposed run. I don't want another Bush advisor or a Rice speech writer selling the same old foreign policy and it doesn't change my view of that just because they do so by way of leeching off the popularity of "the next big thing" in politics. Some others, I take different issue with regard to their involvement. Will likely spend more of my energy there. Benton and Collins aren't worth a second of my time beyond that which I've already given. These are weapons of mass social distraction in my view. Jobbers. So...that's that.

invisible
11-16-2014, 06:35 PM
You obviously don't have any clue what was going on behind the scenes there....

Please, tell us. What does benton uniquely bring to the plate, that is considered to be worth the controversy and division of supporters?

Natural Citizen
11-16-2014, 06:45 PM
Please, tell us. What does benton uniquely bring to the plate, that is considered to be worth the controversy and division of supporters?

Perhaps it may be the controversy itself that makes it worth it to bring him. Similar to what we see with ISIL. You know? You want chaos if it's prescribed order that is the prize. Come on, invisible. This ain't rocket science. And even if it were, rocket science isn't really that hard. If I were campaigning, I think I'd much rather have some small timers on reserve to take prescribed heat instead of putting the real bad apples in danger of a genuine fire.

mosquitobite
11-16-2014, 06:46 PM
What "tantrum" are you talking about? :confused: It was Tom who threw a public fit over things.


Why are you allowed to say this but the rest of us are not?

You have been asked to prove that Tom Woods threw a public fit in 2011 and have yet to do so. We're supposed to take your word for it.

Yet when someone on the other side of this disagreement posts an opposing opinion on how things went down you ask for "what tantrum" as if you deserve better proof than we do.

Put up your proof, or don't demand others do so. Someone even helped you out with one link and you insinuated that was just one part. So bring it, (mod edit)

NewRightLibertarian
11-16-2014, 06:57 PM
Please, tell us. What does benton uniquely bring to the plate, that is considered to be worth the controversy and division of supporters?

What it comes down to is that Benton and Collins are lined up in front of the same paymasters. Political toadies know to stick together.

Anti Federalist
11-16-2014, 07:14 PM
I can say from first hand experience, that the RP 2012 campaign in NH made it a point to alienate and discourage any grassroots efforts, even so far as to discourage lawn signs.

They, the "official" campaign, ignored me when I pleaded with them to pick up "Northern Pass" as a campaign issue and a Mitt Romney campaign bundler's tie to pro-NP interests.

I ran newspaper ads with my own money in NH, pointing all this out.

Those ads ran in northern NH, in areas most affected by Northern Pass and possible eminent domain takings by the state for private utility interests, a violation of the NH state constitution.

Ron Paul won Coos county, and he could have won the state.

I am convinced this was at the direction of Benton himself, as you would be hard pressed to make the case that, in the most important 2012 primary, you were not aware of issues that were important to NH voters.

The campaign took a dive, it did at the behest of Benton and whatever cozying up to Romney they were already engaged in.

RP could have won NH, and didn't, I'm convinced, because of Benton backdooring and Romney ass-kissing to further his own career.

I will have no part of Rand 2016 with a Jesse Benton in it.

presence
11-16-2014, 07:46 PM
I will have no part of Rand 2016 with a Jesse Benton in it.

http://i.imgur.com/XaoJXgT.jpg

Carlybee
11-16-2014, 08:13 PM
- Mitch likes Rand
- Mitch likes the idea that someone from KY could be the GOP nominee for President
- Mitch knows that Rand could've given him a primary fight that could've cost him his political career...


Mitch does Rand a lot more good as Sen Maj Ldr than as some unelected guy on the street. Mitch is useful to Rand. And Mitch's re-election in large part depended on Rand.


Think it through.



Rand had already promised to endorse the Republican nominee for President long before 2012 ever happened.


Because he is family and he is very loyal to his family.


I've never said MCConnell wasn't an advantageous ally..at least from the establishment side. I have no doubt he likes Rand. I still think it odd for anyone to endorse someone who is months out from even announcing they are running. It makes it look like a premeditated deal. It seems like a trump card that would've been trotted out at a more politically advantageous moment. I'm sure Benton is loyal to family when that's been pretty much his bread and butter..his stint with McConnell nonwithstanding.

/shrug

Brian4Liberty
11-16-2014, 08:31 PM
I've never said MCConnell wasn't an advantageous ally..at least from the establishment side. I have no doubt he likes Rand. I still think it odd for anyone to endorse someone who is months out from even announcing they are running. It makes it look like a premeditated deal. It seems like a trump card that would've been trotted out at a more politically advantageous moment. I'm sure Benton is loyal to family when that's been pretty much his bread and butter..his stint with McConnell nonwithstanding.

/shrug

Yeah, there is no way of knowing for sure if Benton was involved (or how much) in the endorsements.

It's interesting that Rand endorsed McConnell way out in advance, and now McConnell is endorsing Rand in advance.

cajuncocoa
11-16-2014, 08:32 PM
Why are you allowed to say this but the rest of us are not?

You have been asked to prove that Tom Woods threw a public fit in 2011 and have yet to do so. We're supposed to take your word for it.

Yet when someone on the other side of this disagreement posts an opposing opinion on how things went down you ask for "what tantrum" as if you deserve better proof than we do.

Put up your proof, or don't demand others do so. Someone even helped you out with one link and you insinuated that was just one part. So bring it, boy.A better question is, why do the rest of us put up with it?

There is another option: just ignore him.

Matt isn't wrong when he says Rand can win without us. He doesn't need our votes, and he doesn't need our money. If Rand plays politics with the big boys in the manner that Romney, McCain, and the Bushes have done in the GOP before him, any money we could raise would pale in comparison to the millions that can be raised on his behalf from corporate donors and PACs. We've been told over and over that Rand isn't trying to speak to us...there aren't enough of us to win an election. So when he speaks the language that Hannity and Limbaugh listeners speak, he can pick up 10 votes to any 1 lost by his father's grassroots supporters.

The point is, the Rand Paul campaign doesn't feel the need to listen to the Ron Paul grassroots people about Jesse Benton, or anything really. But if you feel like being a state delegate and having your fingers or hip broken at your state convention, he probably won't mind. Just don't expect Matt to be impressed by anything you suggest. Matt knows you don't have the knowledge or experience to speak of such things. And as long as he "knows" this, why do we continue to think we have anything of value to suggest to him?

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/billandted.gif

Natural Citizen
11-16-2014, 08:44 PM
A better question is, why do the rest of us put up with it?


Because some of us don't understand the power that we truly hold. If some of us ever figure that out then these little squabbles would cease in a country minute. Make no mistake about that, homegirl.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67rfMbw-3e0

erowe1
11-16-2014, 08:46 PM
What "tantrum" are you talking about? :confused: It was Tom who threw a public fit over things.


If you're not going to back this up, then stop saying it.

You can't use the, "I don't want to stir things up," line and then keep on making a baseless charge.

mosquitobite
11-16-2014, 08:51 PM
I can say from first hand experience, that the RP 2012 campaign in NH made it a point to alienate and discourage any grassroots efforts, even so far as to discourage lawn signs.

They, the "official" campaign, ignored me when I pleaded with them to pick up "Northern Pass" as a campaign issue and a Mitt Romney campaign bundler's tie to pro-NP interests.

I ran newspaper ads with my own money in NH, pointing all this out.

Those ads ran in northern NH, in areas most affected by Northern Pass and possible eminent domain takings by the state for private utility interests, a violation of the NH state constitution.

Ron Paul won Coos county, and he could have won the state.

I am convinced this was at the direction of Benton himself, as you would be hard pressed to make the case that, in the most important 2012 primary, you were not aware of issues that were improtant to NH voters.

The campaign took a dive, it did at the behest of Benton and whatever cozying up to Romney they were already engaged in.

RP could have won NH, and didn't, I'm convinced, because of Benton backdooring and Romney ass-kissing to further his own career.

I will have no part of Rand 2016 with a Jesse Benton in it.

I too contacted the campaign loudly & vocally about wanting to fill Indiana with delegates. really, it wouldn't be hard in any state. they had moneybomb donation lists. I guarantee any single person who voted for RP with their wallet would sign any paperwork necessary to become a delegate, or at least a large % would! why wouldn't a campaign manager use that? I offered to call every person on that list in my state.

presence
11-16-2014, 08:52 PM
I found this on the net:

http://petersantilli.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/JesseBentonInsideSabotuer.jpg

http://petersantilli.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/PETERSCHIFFBENTONTEXT2.jpg

presence
11-16-2014, 08:54 PM
http://www.thesleepermustawaken.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/adamexcluded1.jpg

erowe1
11-16-2014, 08:57 PM
I too contacted the campaign loudly & vocally about wanting to fill Indiana with delegates. really, it wouldn't be hard in any state. they had moneybomb donation lists. I guarantee any single person who voted for RP with their wallet would sign any paperwork necessary to become a delegate, or at least a large + would! why wouldn't a campaign manager use that? I offered to call every person on that list in my state.

They did do that in Indiana. I remember being given some of those numbers and helping to call people.

presence
11-16-2014, 08:57 PM
Here is the transcript of the video (via cyberwarzone)

Hello Citizens of the world, We are Anonymous. Dear brothers and sisters: Now is the time to open your eyes and expose the truth!
The United States of America has been taken over by the elite one percent. No more are the people of the United States of America the sovereign. Our governments have been bought and sold to the highest bidder. The United States representatives have no need to listen to its people because they have pledged allegiance to those with the most money and power. The United States government are stripping away the freedoms and liberties of its people and the justice system is a perversion to the bill of rights our founding fathers have fought and died for. No longer do the police protect and serve its public but rather many have turned into hired thugs. The constitution of the united states has almost literally been stripped to nothing and the United States government uses terrorism to deprive the rights and liberties of its citizens as well as people from around the world.

Anonymous now has a leak that exposes Jesse Benton, Ron Paul's campaign manager, about his sabotage of the Ron Paul's campaign during the Republican National Convention (RNC). Speculation Suggest that Jesse Benton was paid off handsomely for his services to sabotage the Ron Paul movement. While more evidence on this is to be determined there is no doubt that Jesse Benton's political career will be well rewarded for his services of betrayal, corruption and sabotage. For those who have supported Ron Paul's campaign and liberty movement we urge you to continue to fight and seek justice. This shame that has been brought to Anonymous' attention will not go un noticed.
Remember, Remember the fifth of November election fraud, treason and Plot. I see no reason why election fraud, treason and Plot should ever be forgot.

We are anonymous.

We are Legion.

We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
..

presence
11-16-2014, 08:59 PM
Thread: Very Serious Allegations Made Against 2012 Ron Paul Campaign Manager Jesse Benton (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?423484-Very-Serious-Allegations-Made-Against-2012-Ron-Paul-Campaign-Manager-Jesse-Benton/page6)

presence
11-16-2014, 09:07 PM
http://thumbs.mic.com/I-B72CCRH37dtRxxCFdntIZwets=/25x25/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fpmbucket%2Fsite%2F users%2F9027%2Foriginal.png (http://mic.com/profiles/9027/allan-stevo) By Allan Stevo (http://mic.com/profiles/9027/allan-stevo) May 16, 2012
SHARE (http://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=http://mic.com/articles/8435/ron-paul-supporters-united-despite-differences-of-opinion)
TWEET (http://twitter.com/share?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmic.com%2Farticles%2F8435%2 Fron-paul-supporters-united-despite-differences-of-opinion&original_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fmic.com%2Farticles%2 F8435%2Fron-paul-supporters-united-despite-differences-of-opinion&related=MicNews&via=MicNews&source=tweetbutton&text=Ron%20Paul%20Supporters%20United%20Despite%20 Differences%20of%20Opinion%20by%20Allan%20Stevo)






At a time like this, you either fire the leadership of a campaign or you stand behind them. The third option is to give up, but Ron Paul supporters don’t seem like the type to give up.
I’ve been in Ron Paul campaign manager Jesse Benton’s presence a total of two times. Those two times lasted a maximum of 30 seconds each. I have no personal loyalty to Jesse Benton nor animosity for him.
What I do as of late is to follow the liberty movement and write about it.

The atmosphere of the liberty movement has suddenly shifted.

Two days ago, the blogosphere called the liberty movement victorious. Some in the mainstream media were even saying the same. The delegate strategy was working and the media was just starting to discuss this unorthodox move more in depth. It was great for the liberty movement and Ron Paul’s campaign. Things looked strong and full of potential.

A Transition

A poorly written press release (http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2012/05/14/ron-paul-statement-on-campaign-going-forward/) followed by a series of imprecisely worded statements at a press conference given by Jesse Benton was received by a press ready to cannibalize Ron Paul and coronate Mitt Romney. Things quickly started to get ugly.

The liberty movement made that possible. Only a story with traction gets heard by people. Despite the fact that the Ron Paul movement is as strong today as it was two days ago, Paul’s supporters for some reason gave this story traction. An interesting thing I’ve found out about Ron Paul supporters is that they long ago dismissed the main stream media. They long ago said to themselves, “The media lies and we don’t need it. We can become the media.”
The growth of Ron Paul’s movement over the last year and last five years aren’t because of favors owed in the mainstream media, but because, in part, of one-on-one dialogue among friends, family, and neighbors as well as the volunteer-heavy work of phoning entire states of Republican voters and simply talking to them. Ron Paul supporters carried Ron Paul’s ideas to people and disseminated those ideas.
I’d long observed that while this was a slow and arduous process; these Ron Paul supporters were clever people. While media reports can swing markets, electoral results, and even rally support for a war, it can only do so when people are listening to those media reports. Ron Paul supporters weren’t listening. They understood that a mainstream media strong enough to give them everything they wanted was a mainstream media strong enough to take everything from them. Usually impervious to media spin, it was strange to watch the effect that the stories of the past few days have had in exposing rifts in the movement that supports Ron Paul.
9/11
The September 11 attack didn’t directly destroy American liberty. The attacks directly caused tragic deaths. Some of the reactions from the American government made 9/11 worse. We begged our government to gobble up our liberties or ineffectually fought as those liberties were gobbled up. Some of us even watched idly.
Future generations will look back at us for this in strict judgment, just as contemporary Germans shamefully recall the abysmal moral compass of their forefathers in the 1930s and ‘40s.
We all know that America cannot be successfully invaded – too many guns and ornery folks for any foreigner to successfully invade. No external enemy could bring down the largely free society that America historically has had. Only by internal “attacks” can our liberties be sacrificed. No external force could eliminate those liberties.
Ron Paul’s movement is impervious in a similar way. His supporters want transparency, fairness, open systems, rule of law, and constitutional government. Because of the nature of their movement, nothing can take these people down. Their political goals welcome anyone to join the group as long as they share the same message and it’s easy to tell who’s with you or against you. Everyone is welcome into this big tent just as long as they share those similar values. The movement is decentralized and inclusive. Nothing can take these people down. Nothing except themselves.
Grassroots money and support channeled to and focused by official campaign staff in accordance with a clear strategy is bringing strong wins this year for Ron Paul and his supporters. That teamwork has been great and as far as I’m concerned will provide the liberty movement with many more victories this year. I recognize the long-shot odds, but one of those successes, I still believe, can be Ron Paul getting the Republican nomination. Ron Paul’s plan is working.
Will Ron Paul at this stage fire his campaign manager Jesse Benton?
Would you fire someone you trusted just because he made a few mistakes, especially if that meant needing to go out and finding someone better in a political environment where trustworthy people are hard to find? Would you hire a stranger to run your campaign during the thickest fight, where your opponent wants nothing more than to remove you from the process?
Will Ron Paul at this stage fire his campaign manager Jesse Benton?
I doubt it.
Other Avenues
This offers Ron Paul supporters some other decisions – to quit showing support for the campaign or to continue supporting the campaign. As I’ve already said, Ron Paul folks aren’t really into quitting.
I don’t like the defeatism I hear coming from people in Ron Paul’s campaign. I don’t care for their negativity. I don’t like the many mistakes they make.
And that’s OK. Everyone makes mistakes and no one’s perfect. That’s something I just need to get over when I observe the campaign in action.
Even if Jesse Benton or Ron Paul thinks it appropriate to suggest the liberty movement might not be successful in making Ron Paul the president this year, the individual members of the liberty movement are entitled to a difference of opinion.
I don’t write in support of anyone or against anyone. I write because I wonder if the most vocal members of the liberty movement realize the responsibility that accompanies their freedoms. Paul’s supporters can, of course, freely and anonymously post their views on the internet, but it must be understood that at this most crucial point at this crossroads of the campaign, many members of the liberty movement are opting to paralyze their own movement.
The liberty movement needs leaders right now instead of a few hurtful anonymous posts on the internet.
Regardless of what the heads of Ron Paul’s campaign think, the liberty movement has a national convention to get to. And it never was about the campaign anyway.
The people who think Ron Paul is a great candidate, but who think the campaign sucks might try some other more productive avenues.
- They could start a PAC, raise money, help contribute concretely to a win, instead of drowning out the campaign’s strategy.
- They could rally together friends and help win votes and delegates for Ron Paul.
- They could admit that maybe they just need to quiet down and follow obediently sometimes.
There are people in Ron Paul’s movement with 30 years of experience running winning campaigns, but you’d never hear them say they want to remove Jesse Benton as campaign manager. They work for the campaign without pay and realize that for an organization to function, some people must accept a role in the campaign and to diligently work in that capacity from the beginning of the campaign all the way through to the end. These people humble those around them with their knowledge of how to win campaigns, yet they also encourage those around them to work harder instead of chatting idly about strategy. They do that by recognizing their place in the campaign and working as hard as possible on excelling in that role.
Liberty-minded
No matter how good a David Axelrod or a Lee Atwater might be for Ron Paul’s cause, I have a hard time imagining that Ron Paul’s supporters would be any happier with them. There’s an old Slovak saying that goes, “There are people who complain even in paradise.” This is similar to the English, “You can’t please all of the people all of the time.” Some people will never be happy and to try to please such people is a fool’s errand.
If Benton screws up, at least he’s a Ron Paul person. It’s a believer in liberty and a believer in Ron Paul as a person, a campaign manager handpicked by that candidate.
Ron Paul has spent 40 years stressing his positions on liberty, 40 years developing his “name brand.” Always the long-game thinker, the long-game thinker that his supporters have come to love, I’m not surprised to see him avoiding a “go for broke” style of thinking. After 40 years of work, the man wants to leave more of a legacy than just “the man who incited riots in the GOP” or “that old guy who spoke on prime time television at the RNC.” The man is a long-game thinker and my guess is, as much as he wants a win in the year 2012, his mind is focused on the future.
When it comes down to it, each member of the liberty movement is an individual, Ron Paul is an individual, and Ron Paul’s campaign is an organization. When those three components are working in sync, they function better. The hurtful, angry words don’t get the liberty movement any closer to working better.
A supporter of the movement reminded me a few weeks ago “United we stand, divided – they win.”




http://mic.com/articles/8435/ron-paul-supporters-united-despite-differences-of-opinion

erowe1
11-16-2014, 09:11 PM
http://mic.com/articles/8435/ron-paul-supporters-united-despite-differences-of-opinion

I don't get that article. Was that guy trying to push the idea that Ron Paul was supposed to keep trying to get the GOP nomination as of May 16, 2012?

presence
11-16-2014, 09:12 PM
Jesse Benton Resigns From McConnell Team Amid Payola ... (http://libertycrier.com/jesse-benton-resigns-mcconnell-team-amid-payola-scandal-iowa/)libertycrier.com/jesse-benton-resigns-mcconnell-team-amid-payola-scandal

Aug 30, 2014 - Paid endorsements, cover-ups, lying to investigators

mosquitobite
11-16-2014, 09:14 PM
They did do that in Indiana. I remember being given some of those numbers and helping to call people.

No, the list they used was the one from the webpage where people offered to be a delegate. I did call those. but there were mutiple duplicates and they gave it like 1 week before the deadline.

I understand not giving just anyone the list - but they could have utilized resources better or delegate responsibility. if this is not the fault of a campaign manager then who should we blame?

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 09:15 PM
What it comes down to is that Benton and Collins are lined up in front of the same paymasters. HA! Not even close.

Matt Collins
11-16-2014, 09:16 PM
If you're not going to back this up, then stop saying it.

You can't use the, "I don't want to stir things up," line and then keep on making a baseless charge.
It is not necessary to show all the dirty details in order to know that this happened.

mosquitobite
11-16-2014, 09:19 PM
Shouldn't someone who has the title of "netroots coordinator" at least be liked by those he is tasked with coordinating?

erowe1
11-16-2014, 09:23 PM
It is not necessary to show all the dirty details in order to know that this happened.

I agree. Just show one.

Nobody else here seems to believe that it happened. We were around at the time. And you're far from the most reliable source in this forum. As of now, all the available evidence forces us to conclude that you're lying.

fr33
11-16-2014, 09:44 PM
Jesse Benton was paid almost 600k ($586,616) for the 2012 election. I blame him some for accepting so much money while doing a terrible job but I do blame his boss more for paying him so much and not being a good steward with our donations.

On this forum when the topic came up back in 2012, the defenders (myself included), said it was for reimbursements. I don't think that was true and cannot find any info for such reimbursements while I can find some info (http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/no-expense-too-small-ron-paul) about itemized expenses other campaign staffers used. I think the majority of that 580k was take home pay and he really didn't earn it given the bad job the campaign did with working with the grassroots to get delegates and given how they kept asking for money after the campaign was clearly over.

cajuncocoa
11-16-2014, 10:07 PM
Shouldn't someone who has the title of "netroots coordinator" at least be liked by those he is tasked with coordinating?
That depends on the definition of "coordinating"

in this case "coordinating" probably means sequestering some of us in the attic....our money and votes will be taken (if you feel like donating, but they don't need them) but your views and opinions are clearly too embarrassing for public viewing.

why are you still here?

Anti Federalist
11-16-2014, 10:27 PM
Matt isn't wrong when he says Rand can win without us. He doesn't need our votes, and he doesn't need our money. If Rand plays politics with the big boys in the manner that Romney, McCain, and the Bushes have done in the GOP before him, any money we could raise would pale in comparison to the millions that can be raised on his behalf from corporate donors and PACs. We've been told over and over that Rand isn't trying to speak to us...there aren't enough of us to win an election. So when he speaks the language that Hannity and Limbaugh listeners speak, he can pick up 10 votes to any 1 lost by his father's grassroots supporters.
The Goldwater Revolution, before I was born, was supposed to "change things".

The Reagan Revolution, that I was part of, was supposed to "change things".

The Contract with America Revolution in 1994, was supposed to "change things".

The Consolidated GOP Revolution in DC during the first Bush years, was supposed to "change things".

The Ron Paul Revolution, was supposed to "change things".

The Rand Paul Revolution will "change things". We promise, this time.

Politics is entertainment for tyrants, played out for their benefit, by suckers, chumps and fools.

People do not want freedom, they never have wanted freedom, and the only times the human race has had a little bit of freedom is when men of action SEIZED it from the wretched refuse of the political and ruling classes and ignored the howls and protestations of the Stockholm Syndrome addled masses.

Until they themselves turned into the "pigs".

It is long past time to re-set the clock to zero.

presence
11-16-2014, 10:36 PM
It is long past time to re-set the clock to zero.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/related/images/henryp.gif

jjdoyle
11-16-2014, 11:49 PM
Why did Benton go to work for McConnell? Think about it....

Just throwing that out there...

We know this from Jesse's own mouth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60TGUNwHDtw

Crashland
11-17-2014, 12:16 AM
We know this from Jesse's own mouth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60TGUNwHDtw

What an awkward conversation that was. But doesn't that kind of prove Collins' point?

jjdoyle
11-17-2014, 12:36 AM
What an awkward conversation that was. But doesn't that kind of prove Collins' point?

Yes, except then Jesse went back after that was released and said that what he did in the conversation was just to appease a hardcore Ron Paul supporter, and that he really does believe in Mitch McConnell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rmxSupufsQ#t=95

jjdoyle
11-17-2014, 01:38 AM
For those just joining this thread and not reading the first 6 pages, here's my list of some reasons why Jesse Benton shouldn't be near Rand in 2016:

Was Tom Woods the one in charge of a campaign that lied to supporters for months wasting their money, and more importantly their time? I don't recall that he was. IMO....

Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because he has Matt Collins defending him *and supposedly called Matt Collins instead of calling Tom Woods directly over a supposed 2011 controversy.
Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because under his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than RICK SANTORUM in 2012.
Jesse Benton is unfit to be near Rand in 2016, because under his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than NEWT GINGRICH in 2012.
Jesse Benton showed in 2012, he didn't know how to tailor a political message to HELP HIS CANDIDATE WIN.
When in charge, Jesse Benton didn't know how to guide the energy of the grassroots, and through his own actions and the actions of Ron Paul 2012, and instead was busy spraying Roundup everywhere trying to kill the grassroots.
Under Jesse Benton's leadership, Ron Paul 2012 wasted MILLIONS OF SUPPORTERS' DOLLARS and more importantly (and unfortunately) WASTED MONTHS OF THEIR LIVES.
Under Jesse Benton's leadership, Ron Paul 2012's official website was allowed to try, but FAILED, to defend an endorsement of Mitt Romney. A big stick in the eye to actual liberty activists and grassroots supporters that had given their own money and time to try and GET RON PAUL ELECTED.

But, as is evidenced by everything we know, Ron Paul 2012 wasn't trying to win the nomination from February 2012 to May 2012, and instead was simply staying in the race to try and help Mitt Romney win the nomination smoothly, and to try and get Mitt Romney to pickup some Ron Paul supporters, which is why the RNC allowed a Ron Paul tribute video, Rand Paul a speech, and Jack Hunter's garbage use of RonPaul2012.com to defend a Mitt Romney endorsement.

(mod edit)

I don't suggest to cry over Ron Paul's loss or spilled milk, as said (mod edit) but there are plenty of reasons that Jesse Benton should not be involved in any fashion with Rand in 2016, and those are just some of them.

jmdrake
11-17-2014, 07:28 AM
1) He's Facing Federal Election Fraud Charges
2) Born in 1977 ,Benton's political career began in 2000 when he worked with the Republican National Committee.
3) Basically straight from college into politics with paychecks in the 100K range from family members campaign funds.
4) It's ok for Jesse to air grievances about Tom because Jesse is "on the inside"
5) Rand Paul dropped Chris Hightower in 2009 for less. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...olvement/page3
6) Jesse's definition of winning and what one must do to 'win' is exactly opposite of what the grassroot's definition of 'winning' is and what one must do to 'win'
7) Jessee sought to co-opt grassroot power and attempted to use it to further his own ends
8) I do not think his text message to Peter Schiff regarding Paul Fest was appropriate.
9) Benton was never a part of any campaign until he hooked up with Ron Paul's granddaughter. 2007, "He had no knowledge of Ron Paul, he was unemployed and affordable."
10) If you want to pit Tom Woods integrity and transparency against Jesse Benton, I will take Tom Woods 100 times out of 100.
11)undermining the campaign hurts the candidate. Duh... Jesse pretty much drove the nail in the coffin.
12) Rand bringing on Jesse Benton to his campaign team will demonstrate cronyism, nepotism and a lack of quality judgment
13) his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than RICK SANTORUM in 2012.
14) his management Ron Paul got fewer votes than NEWT GINGRICH in 2012.
15) Jesse Benton showed in 2012, he didn't know how to tailor a political message to HELP HIS CANDIDATE WIN.
16) Benton didn't know how to guide the energy of the grassroots
17) busy spraying Roundup everywhere trying to kill the grassroots.
18) wasted MILLIONS OF SUPPORTERS' DOLLARS and more importantly (and unfortunately) WASTED MONTHS OF THEIR LIVES.
19) use of RonPaul2012.com to defend a Mitt Romney endorsement.
20) the lack of transparency in and of itself is an indication of something.
21) Can you say that Rand won't have to defend him in some regard? Can you say that Rand won't have to cut ties in an embarrassing kerfuffle?
22) Benton's learning curve leeway is all used up and I'm having a hard time figuring out what, if anything, he has learned.
23) raised more money than the campaigns of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, and still couldn't win a single state's popular vote.
24) time and millions of dollars of the grassroots supporters helping Mitt Romney win the nomination
25) what makes you think he wouldn't turn on a dime if it was politically expedient in the future.
26) he is a mealy mouthed little self important worm who hasn't actually won an election.
27) A good campaign manager stays OUT of the spotlight. Benton fails on that notion. Most of his spotlight is negative.
28) We do know he had to resign from the McConnell campaign.
29) Based on the Sorensen issue alone I think he should be far, far, away
30) allegations of shady dealings is a red flag because the competition will use every negative thing out there to try and smear Rand.
I'll just take minutes... carry on

/thread

Seriously trying to turn this into a criticism of Tom Woods is stupid. Jesse Benton has become a liability. In 2016 if Tom Woods is working with the campaign nobody will notice. If Jesse Benton is, it will be a news story and not in a good way. Chris Hightower got thrown under the bus. The overeager volunteer who stepped on a protesters neck at a Rand Paul rally got thrown under the bus. The Southern Avenger threw himself under the bus. Really, it's simple. Jesse Benton being involved in any visible way will hurt the campaign. If he can be involved in a way that nobody knows he's involved than I guess that's okay...as long as he not in a position to colossally screw things up like he or someone did with the whole "Let's pay a Michelle Bachmann aide to switch sides" fiasco. Seriously nobody involved in that should be directly involved with the campaign. If Ron himself was facing a federal indictment over slimy politics then he would need to be at arms length at least until that was cleared up as well. Really, why should everyone be expected to sacrifice except Jesse Benton? Benton may be a great guy and the best political strategist on the planet, but he's a liability at this point. Period.

presence
11-17-2014, 09:51 AM
Shouldn't someone who has the title of "netroots coordinator" at least be liked by those he is tasked with coordinating?

...which is why I suggested that we reverse the chain of command from the top down to a bottom up here:


The present curriculum...




2014 RPF Member's Party Platform

(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463087-2014-RPF-Member-s-Party-Platform)
Help Elect a RPF Lobbyist to RAND2016 Campaign! (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463054-Help-Elect-a-RPF-Lobbyist-to-RAND2016-Campaign%21)


It would do us right to work some stuff out in Roberts Rules... turn this place into a

Parlimentary Action Liberty Bootcamp (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463211-Parlimentary-Action-Liberty-Bootcamp)

presence
11-17-2014, 09:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqkMsXcHQYg

acptulsa
11-17-2014, 10:55 AM
The Goldwater Revolution, before I was born, was supposed to "change things".

The Reagan Revolution, that I was part of, was supposed to "change things".

The Contract with America Revolution in 1994, was supposed to "change things".

The Consolidated GOP Revolution in DC during the first Bush years, was supposed to "change things".

The Ron Paul Revolution, was supposed to "change things".

The Rand Paul Revolution will "change things". We promise, this time.

Politics is entertainment for tyrants, played out for their benefit, by suckers, chumps and fools.

People do not want freedom, they never have wanted freedom, and the only times the human race has had a little bit of freedom is when men of action SEIZED it from the wretched refuse of the political and ruling classes and ignored the howls and protestations of the Stockholm Syndrome addled masses.

Until they themselves turned into the "pigs".

It is long past time to re-set the clock to zero.

The Harding/Coolidge era did change things. And people enjoyed the liberty they got in the Roaring Twenties. In fact, it wasn't until the kids from that era got to be ninety or so that they could get away with accelerating the rate of tyrannization.

If we could get everyone a little more experience with liberty that way, they'd once again know what we're fighting for, and they'd help us do it.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2014, 11:08 AM
The Harding/Coolidge era did change things. And people enjoyed the liberty they got in the Roaring Twenties. In fact, it wasn't until the kids from that era got to be ninety or so that they could get away with accelerating the rate of tyrannization.

If we could get everyone a little more experience with liberty that way, they'd once again know what we're fighting for, and they'd help us do it.
I do not think that will ever be permitted again, at least not by the post WWII ruling junta in DC

NewRightLibertarian
11-17-2014, 11:19 AM
Seriously trying to turn this into a criticism of Tom Woods is stupid.

Woods deserves props for standing up for the grassroots against Ron Paul Inc. and their slimy corrupt coattail-riding goons like Jesse Benton. The revisionists want to paint the picture that the Ron Paul 2012 campaign was managed so well and Benton was responsible for that. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know if they're trying to fool themselves, or just whore themselves out for a paycheck. Either way, it's sickening.

specsaregood
11-17-2014, 11:26 AM
/thread

Seriously trying to turn this into a criticism of Tom Woods is stupid. Jesse Benton has become a liability. In 2016 if Tom Woods is working with the campaign nobody will notice. If Jesse Benton is, it will be a news story and not in a good way. Chris Hightower got thrown under the bus. The overeager volunteer who stepped on a protesters neck at a Rand Paul rally got thrown under the bus. The Southern Avenger threw himself under the bus. Really, it's simple. Jesse Benton being involved in any visible way will hurt the campaign. If he can be involved in a way that nobody knows he's involved than I guess that's okay...as long as he not in a position to colossally screw things up like he or someone did with the whole "Let's pay a Michelle Bachmann aide to switch sides" fiasco. Seriously nobody involved in that should be directly involved with the campaign. If Ron himself was facing a federal indictment over slimy politics then he would need to be at arms length at least until that was cleared up as well. Really, why should everyone be expected to sacrifice except Jesse Benton? Benton may be a great guy and the best political strategist on the planet, but he's a liability at this point. Period.

I think that really sums it up. Given Randals past history with other employees that became a problem I would be surprised if Benton was involved at all publically or officially.

I could come up with some reasons/excuses for why he might be involved in some capacity (especially initially) but can't come up with any for why he SHOULD be involved.

helmuth_hubener
11-17-2014, 12:25 PM
Reasons to Not Publicly Hire Jesse Benton for the Rand Paul 2012 Campaign

1) He's Facing Federal Election Fraud Charges
2) Born in 1977, Benton's political career began in 2000 when he worked with the Republican National Committee.
3) He has essentially gone straight from college into politics with very little experience, and paychecks in the 100K range from family members' campaign funds.
4) Jesse aired grievances about Tom Woods and treated him poorly.
5) Rand Paul dropped Chris Hightower in 2009 for less.
6) Jesse's definition of winning and what one must do to 'win' is exactly opposite of what the grassroots' definition of 'winning' is and what one must do to 'win', according to some.
7) Jesse is seen as seeking to co-opt grassroots' power and attempted to use it to further his own ends.
8) Bryan, owner of RandPaulForums.com, does not think his text message to Peter Schiff regarding Paul Fest was appropriate.
9) According to Kent Snyder, the campaign chairman for Ron Paul in his 2008 campaign (who tragically died of pneumonia), Mr. Benton was never a part of any campaign until he hooked up with Ron Paul's granddaughter, and he had no knowledge of Ron Paul -- he was hired because he was unemployed and affordable.
10) If you want to pit Tom Woods' integrity and transparency against Jesse Benton, most RPF forum members will probably take Tom Woods 100 times out of 100.
11) Many supporters see Mr. Benton as having undermined the Ron Paul 2012 campaign.
12) Rand bringing on Jesse Benton to his campaign team will demonstrate cronyism, nepotism and a lack of quality judgment.
13) Jesse Benton's management got Ron Paul fewer votes than Rick Santorum in 2012.
14) Jesse Benton's management got Ron Paul fewer votes than Newt Gingrich in 2012.
15) Jesse Benton showed in 2012 that he didn't know how to tailor a political message to help his candidate win, according to jjdoyle (and other forum members).
16) Mr. Benton didn't know how to guide the energy of the grassroots -- to the contrary, he alienated the vast majority of them who were aware of him.
17) He was perceived by many as being "busy spraying Roundup everywhere trying to kill the grassroots."
18) Supporters saw his actions as wasting millions of their dollars and wasting months and years of their lives.
19) Under Jesse Benton's direction, RonPaul2012.com was used to defend a Mitt Romney endorsement.
20) There was a lack of transparency in Mr. Benton's actions. The lack of transparency in and of itself is an indication of something, according to some.
21) Can we say that Rand won't have to defend him in some regard? Can we say that Rand won't have to cut ties in an embarrassing kerfuffle? No, it is likely that Rand would have to defend Mr. Benton, and would eventually have to part paths with him in an embarrassing way.
22) Benton's learning curve leeway is all used up and some supporters are having a hard time figuring out what, if anything, he has learned.
23) Under Mr. Benton, despite having raised more money than the campaigns of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, Ron Paul's campaign still couldn't win a single state's popular vote.
24) Many of Mr. Benton's decisions were and still are seen as having been made in order to help Mitt Romney win the nomination, a goal not shared by most of the supporters of Ron Paul in 2012.
25) His apparent political opportunism raises the concern that he would turn on a dime and change loyalties if it was politically expedient in the future.
26) According to angelatc, who was involved in the Ron Paul 2012 campaign and had personal experience with Mr. Benton, and also was in close contact with Tom Woods, a victim of Mr. Benton's wrath: Jesse Benton is a mealy mouthed little self important worm who hasn't actually won an election.
27) A good campaign manager stays out of the spotlight. Benton has not, so he fails in that regard. Furthermore, most of his spotlight is negative.
28) Jesse Benton had to resign from the Mitch McConnell 2014 campaign.
29) Based on the Sorensen issue alone, many RPF members think he should be kept far, far, away.
30) Allegations of shady dealings is a red flag because the competition will use every negative thing out there to try and smear Rand.
31) There are rumors of Mr. Benton having been seen wandering around the Washington D.C. area with a young female who is not his wife, possibly an intern.
32) The one RonPaulForums member on this thread who is an actual successful campaign manager, mosquitobites, gives a negative assessment of Jesse Benton as a campaign manager. According to mosquitobites: "Most of [Jesse Benton's] spotlight is negative." Mosquitobites believes he has "failed on that front." This unfavorable assessment from an experienced, successful campaign manager should carry a lot of weight.
33) People of known good character, people whom we trust, such as Tom Woods, have voiced serious concerns -- indeed, have issued a call of no confidence -- regarding the character of Jesse Benton.

That last one is why a certain user keeps trying to bring the conversation around to Tom Woods. If he could just discredit and smear Tom Woods, drag his name through the mud, then Mr. Woods' criticisms of Mr. Benton would have less weight and credibility. Unfortunately for this user, the character of Tom Woods is stellar, and his reputation gleams stainless.

helmuth_hubener
11-17-2014, 12:39 PM
Perhaps next the thread will take a turn toward trying to find, dishonestly exaggerate, and repeatedly hammer over and over and over any flaws or mistakes that Mosquitobite may have made in the past (real or imaginary) in a similar attempt to decrease her credibility.

cajuncocoa
11-17-2014, 12:57 PM
I have a question for Matt (should this be its own topic?)

You've described yourself as the "netroots coordinator". I don't know what that means, but since RPF is on the Internet, it sounds like it might have something to do with us (and maybe Facebook and stuff like that). RPF is mostly made up of grassroots supporters....at least, that's what I've always thought. With that in mind, here's the situation and my question:

It's fair to say that you're going to be involved on the inside of Rand's campaign. Probably along with Jesse Benton.


Let’s say the GOP establishment promised Rand’s campaign something that would be hard to refuse — it’s a plum deal that should secure the nomination for Rand. But, it would mean he would have to take a stand on something that would really piss off his Dad’s supporters…something that might make his endorsement of Romney look like child’s play. Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh would be singing Rand’s praises to the rooftops, but any of Ron Paul supporters still in Rand’s camp would walk away in droves.


There are risks involved. Even though the GOP establishment has promised pie in the sky, we’re still about 13-14 months away from the first caucus/primaries. A lot can happen that could make that “secure nomination” they promised something a lot less secure.


If the decision were yours to make, and the establishment came to you, Matt Collins, with that deal…would you do it?

If we posed the same question to Jesse Benton, would he do it?

presence
11-17-2014, 03:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3s9jJ5OkiU

The Saint's - Bengals game reminded me of this thread for some reason.

Anti Federalist
11-17-2014, 05:41 PM
If the decision were yours to make, and the establishment came to you, Matt Collins, with that deal…would you do it?

If we posed the same question to Jesse Benton, would he do it?

I think we both know the answer to that...

Crashland
11-17-2014, 07:39 PM
If the decision were yours to make, and the establishment came to you, Matt Collins, with that deal…would you do it?

If we posed the same question to Jesse Benton, would he do it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NflTOYuVJ0E

Matt Collins
11-17-2014, 08:47 PM
Jesse Benton has become a liability. In 2016 if Tom Woods is working with the campaign nobody will notice. If Jesse Benton is, it will be a news story and not in a good way. Chris Hightower got thrown under the bus. The overeager volunteer who stepped on a protesters neck at a Rand Paul rally got thrown under the bus. The Southern Avenger threw himself under the bus. Oh they would trot out Tom's involvement with the League of the South back in the day.

Matt Collins
11-17-2014, 08:49 PM
It's fair to say that you're going to be involved on the inside of Rand's campaign. Probably along with Jesse Benton. Possible, but one never knows until it happens.



Let’s say the GOP establishment promised Rand’s campaign something that would be hard to refuse — it’s a plum deal that should secure the nomination for Rand. But, it would mean he would have to take a stand on something that would really piss off his Dad’s supporters…something that might make his endorsement of Romney look like child’s play. Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh would be singing Rand’s praises to the rooftops, but any of Ron Paul supporters still in Rand’s camp would walk away in droves.


There are risks involved. Even though the GOP establishment has promised pie in the sky, we’re still about 13-14 months away from the first caucus/primaries. A lot can happen that could make that “secure nomination” they promised something a lot less secure.


If the decision were yours to make, and the establishment came to you, Matt Collins, with that deal…would you do it?

If we posed the same question to Jesse Benton, would he do it?
I don't (currently) speak for anyone other than myself, but it is very difficult if not impossible to answer hypotheticals like this. I will say that I am not as pragmatic as some might be, so I would be inclined not to compromise, but then again I am not a politician nor am I seeking office. Again, the devil is in the details.

heavenlyboy34
11-17-2014, 08:49 PM
I think we both know the answer to that...

Count me in.

staerker
11-17-2014, 08:51 PM
Oh they would trot out Tom's involvement with the League of the South back in the day.

Are you agreeing with jmdrake's first statement?

Matt Collins
11-17-2014, 08:59 PM
I can say from first hand experience, that the RP 2012 campaign in NH made it a point to alienate and discourage any grassroots efforts, even so far as to discourage lawn signs.yard signs don't win elections. Door to door, phone banking, and direct mail win elections. Sometimes mass media ads can have an effect, but not always.


They, the "official" campaign, ignored me when I pleaded with them to pick up "Northern Pass" as a campaign issue and a Mitt Romney campaign bundler's tie to pro-NP interests.

I ran newspaper ads with my own money in NH, pointing all this out.

Those ads ran in northern NH, in areas most affected by Northern Pass and possible eminent domain takings by the state for private utility interests, a violation of the NH state constitution.

Ron Paul won Coos county, and he could have won the state.https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause


RP could have won NHPlease cite the scientifically sound polling data which backs up this claim.

Matt Collins
11-17-2014, 09:03 PM
Yet when someone on the other side of this disagreement posts an opposing opinion on how things went down you ask for "what tantrum" as if you deserve better proof than we do.I'm just asking what tantrum that Jesse threw over TW's statements because I don't remember one?

phill4paul
11-17-2014, 09:09 PM
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause


As long as you keep using this as a response I will keep neg repping it.

jjdoyle
11-17-2014, 09:15 PM
I'm just asking what tantrum that Jesse threw over TW's statements because I don't remember one?

Can you not prove your claim on the first page still?

And I can tell you from first hand experience that when Tom started publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011, Jesse called me and asked me what was going on. He had the utmost respect for Tom at the time (as did I) and was trying to figure out any way we could get Tom to act like a mature adult. Unfortunately Tom insisted on airing his personal laundry out in public and bashing the campaign like a spoiled bratty child.

You have not provided anything showing Tom Woods publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011. And you also provided nothing that you or Jesse tried contacting Tom. Did you or Jesse contact Tom Woods in 2011 over these supposed public attacks?
If so, wouldn't that be against FEC rules because Tom Woods was part of a PAC, the Revolution PAC, in 2011?

So, why would Tom Woods in 2011 be a part of the Revolution PAC, trying to help Ron Paul win, but supposedly ATTACK the campaign publicly? I haven't seen it, nobody has provided it, and the only thing I have seen is that Tom Woods went public in 2012 after the campaign was over.

ClydeCoulter
11-17-2014, 10:07 PM
No, the list they used was the one from the webpage where people offered to be a delegate. I did call those. but there were mutiple duplicates and they gave it like 1 week before the deadline.

I understand not giving just anyone the list - but they could have utilized resources better or delegate responsibility. if this is not the fault of a campaign manager then who should we blame?

Yep, that's when I got my county list, about a week before the deadline to file. I called them, and those that responded I setup a group meeting with at a park. Most were reluctant to file at the last minute due to the way they were treated in '08, but we did get 2 elected.

ClydeCoulter
11-17-2014, 10:11 PM
...


RP could have won NH

Please cite the scientifically sound polling data which backs up this claim.

I think JJDoyle has for you several times, already.

jjdoyle
11-17-2014, 10:45 PM
Since Matt Collins made a false claim about Tom Woods attacking the campaign in 2011 on the first page, and the moderating team around here has allowed that to stay unverified, I decided to reach out to Mr. Woods directly, and he just said this:

"I still have Jesse's correspondence with me from that time, so I can prove that this version of events is a fantasy. Benton wanted me to act like a mature adult? Benton the potty mouth wants Woods to act like an adult? That sounds plausible.

Moreover, everything I said about certain individuals in the campaign is available at my blog at TomWoods.com. None of it is vitriolic or in any way unreasonable. So there's no need to take the word of this Benton apologist -- or my word, for that matter. See what I wrote for yourself.


There is no one on earth, apart from five people in the Benton circle, who has ever accused me of a lack of maturity.


Furthermore, if I were really "attacking Ron's campaign," as opposed to criticizing certain people who obviously did not have Ron's best interests at heart, why am I so close to Ron today? Why did he write the foreword to my most recent book? Why do I appear on his show, and he on mine? Why was I asked to design courses for his homeschool curriculum? Why does his whole family read my books and pose for pictures with me?"

Followed up with:

"I just realized: to the contrary, I kept everything to myself for Ron's sake. I never said a word about what I knew about Benton's incompetence and overall sleaziness. Not a word. I did that for Ron, not for Benton. Even though Benton was bad-mouthing me to Ron every single day, I kept quiet. And for Collins, a Benton acolyte, who was elevated to whatever stature he had by Benton, to attack me now is beyond laughable."

ghengis86
11-17-2014, 10:51 PM
Since Matt Collins made a false claim about Tom Woods attacking the campaign in 2011 on the first page, and the moderating team around here has allowed that to stay unverified, I decided to reach out to Mr. Woods directly, and he just said this:
"I still have Jesse's correspondence with me from that time, so I can prove that this version of events is a fantasy. Benton wanted me to act like a mature adult? Benton the potty mouth wants Woods to act like an adult? That sounds plausible.

Moreover, everything I said about certain individuals in the campaign is available at my blog at TomWoods.com. None of it is vitriolic or in any way unreasonable. So there's no need to take the word of this Benton apologist -- or my word, for that matter. See what I wrote for yourself.


There is no one on earth, apart from five people in the Benton circle, who has ever accused me of a lack of maturity.


Furthermore, if I were really "attacking Ron's campaign," as opposed to criticizing certain people who obviously did not have Ron's best interests at heart, why am I so close to Ron today? Why did he write the foreword to my most recent book? Why do I appear on his show, and he on mine? Why was I asked to design courses for his homeschool curriculum? Why does his whole family read my books and pose for pictures with me?"

Followed up with:
"I just realized: to the contrary, I kept everything to myself for Ron's sake. I never said a word about what I knew about Benton's incompetence and overall sleaziness. Not a word. I did that for Ron, not for Benton. Even though Benton was bad-mouthing me to Ron every single day, I kept quiet. And for Collins, a Benton acolyte, who was elevated to whatever stature he had by Benton, to attack me now is beyond laughable."


Wow. I owe you rep when I get off the mobile. This seriously hilarious.

newbitech
11-17-2014, 10:57 PM
Wow. I owe you rep when I get off the mobile. This seriously hilarious.

It's cool how open Tom Woods is.

TaftFan
11-17-2014, 10:58 PM
JJ...did you link Tom to this thread?

jjdoyle
11-17-2014, 11:08 PM
JJ...did you link Tom to this thread?

No, I put Matt Collins' lie in the contact email though, as a direct quote from the forums as he had typed it on the first page in this thread.

I could though, but he did 100% give me permission to repost it, and I even asked to make 100% sure even after he had stated it in his first reply, and he said absolutely. I know he has 5 little ones though, and he is busy doing other things, I just appreciated that he responded.

TaftFan
11-17-2014, 11:15 PM
No, I put Matt Collins' lie in the contact email though, as a direct quote from the forums as he had typed it on the first page in this thread.

I could though, but he did 100% give me permission to repost it, and I even asked to make 100% sure even after he had stated it in his first reply, and he said absolutely. I know he has 5 little ones though, and he is busy doing other things, I just appreciated that he responded.

He's a nice guy. And I know he is busy. I once asked him a question, and he was kind enough to reply that if he didn't have 400 videos to make, he would help me research it.

scrosnoe
11-18-2014, 12:14 AM
Clearly we all need to learn the difference between grassroots activists and paid campaign staff.

Next question is who works for whom?

Note: Problem is same one for elected officials and constituents.

Clearer now?

Bottom line is who you align yourself with and what you will do and of course the never-ending saga of:

WHO CONTROLS THE LISTS

helmuth_hubener
11-18-2014, 10:18 AM
Bottom line is...:

WHO CONTROLS THE LISTS

I have an extensive list for Wyoming.

It was extremely difficult to finagle that out of the tight, useless hands of the official campaign in 2012. In contrast, they shared it openly and readily with volunteers for the good of the cause in 2008, back when Jesse Benton was not in charge. Obviously in order to effectively organize and win caucuses and conventions, the supporters would need the lists of other supporters. The campaign in 2008 understood that. The campaign in 2012 from what I could tell must have thought of the lists more as scrosnoe put it above: the lists are power. Our power. And they guarded them jealously. Oh, they were and are happy to lease them out to the Republican National Committee, Mitt Romney, and various others and sundry -- anyone who will show them the money! But to volunteers who could actually help Ron Paul's Presidential Campaign? Pshaw!

Silly peons. This isn't actually about trying to win the Presidency. It's about "baby needs a new three-season deck."

Anti Federalist
11-18-2014, 02:42 PM
yard signs don't win elections. Door to door, phone banking, and direct mail win elections. Sometimes mass media ads can have an effect, but not always.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Please cite the scientifically sound polling data which backs up this claim.

Yes, Matt, I am well aware that only Collinz approved methods win elections.

You've made that very clear.

So has the Bentonite wing of this whole mess.

Good luck with that.

jjdoyle
11-18-2014, 03:09 PM
Yes, Matt, I am well aware that only Collinz approved methods win elections.

You've made that very clear.

So has the Bentonite wing of this whole mess.

Good luck with that.

Why in the world is Matt Collins worried with polling data in New Hampshire, where Ron Paul was polling second basically the entire time, but in Michigan where Ron Paul was polling third the entire time, the campaign spent at least $100,000 attacking Rick Santorum....helping Mitt Romney win that state?
You proved that Ron Paul won the country you ran the ad in, which is real world results, not polling data. It's not your fault you had to spend your own dime actually trying to win the state, while the campaign experts ignored the grassroots in the state.

New Hampshire, Ron Paul polling second behind Mitt Romney, not one single Mitt Romney only TV attack ad.
Michigan, Ron Paul polling third behind Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum, not one single Romney only TV attack ad, just Santorum only TV attack ads.

jmdrake
11-18-2014, 03:29 PM
yard signs don't win elections. Door to door, phone banking, and direct mail win elections. Sometimes mass media ads can have an effect, but not always.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Yard signs definitely don't hurt. If the campaign discouraged people from putting up yard signs that's just silly. The mass media ads were mis-targetted. If no ads at all had been bought and the money had been spent on hiring phone banks, instead of depending on volunteers, I could have understood that. But why attack down? (Santorum and Gingrich). Ron Paul 2012 produced one ad attacking Santorum and Gingrich for attacking Romney.

Really, this was the worst strategic ad of the campaign by any candidate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5pLrwINs1o

mosquitobite
11-18-2014, 03:57 PM
Yep, that's when I got my county list, about a week before the deadline to file. I called them, and those that responded I setup a group meeting with at a park. Most were reluctant to file at the last minute due to the way they were treated in '08, but we did get 2 elected.

EXACTLY my experience. Only myself and one other RP delegate from '08 filed to run and the other guy didn't win. The rest wanted no part of it. I was challenged, but overcame the challenge to get through and win. :D

I don't remember picking up a single delegate from that list (that made it through past the election). I do believe the donation list would have been much larger and therefore it's a shame they didn't call those people. It's even more of a shame that a CAMPAIGN MANAGER wouldn't know Indiana's rules on delegates and when the deadline to file was so that we could have been more effective and overwhelmed them. Ticks me off.

Even now, if we had county/district/regional coordinators for Rand I could be building the network he needs in this area. Starting today. One year before the filing deadline. I have the Ron Paul people and constantly search for more on my own. But not every area has that kind of leader. I can promise MY area - but what good is my little fishbowl in the bigger pool if someone isn't leading?

ghengis86
11-18-2014, 04:28 PM
EXACTLY my experience. Only myself and one other RP delegate from '08 filed to run and the other guy didn't win. The rest wanted no part of it. I was challenged, but overcame the challenge to get through and win. :D

I don't remember picking up a single delegate from that list (that made it through past the election). I do believe the donation list would have been much larger and therefore it's a shame they didn't call those people. It's even more of a shame that a CAMPAIGN MANAGER wouldn't know Indiana's rules on delegates and when the deadline to file was so that we could have been more effective and overwhelmed them. Ticks me off.

Even now, if we had county/district/regional coordinators for Rand I could be building the network he needs in this area. Starting today. One year before the filing deadline. I have the Ron Paul people and constantly search for more on my own. But not every area has that kind of leader. I can promise MY area - but what good is my little fishbowl in the bigger pool if someone isn't leading?

There were three open spots for delegates in my township. Two people filed to be delegates. I was one of them. No challenges, no nothing. You just had to put your name on a candidate form. I saw there were lots of open delegate positions left unfilled when the results were posted. Unbelievable that there wasn't ANY push by the official campaign to get delegates. I only found out about the delegate process from RPFs and researching the county website and local GOP.

That experience was enough for me to figure out that the campaign wasn't even pretending to try to get delegates or win. It was all about paving the way for Romney.

These most basic principles for running a successful campaign to win weren't undertaken by Benton and Ron Paul Inc. that's why -tactically - he should have no part of Rand 2016. Even if you have no integrity and will do any back room deal to win, you STILL need an organization on the ground to pull it off.

mosquitobite
11-18-2014, 04:37 PM
There were three open spots for delegates in my township. Two people filed to be delegates. I was one of them. No challenges, no nothing. You just had to put your name on a candidate form. I saw there were lots of open delegate positions left unfilled when the results were posted. Unbelievable that there wasn't ANY push by the official campaign to get delegates. I only found out about the delegate process from RPFs and researching the county website and local GOP.

That experience was enough for me to figure out that the campaign wasn't even pretending to try to get delegates or win. It was all about paving the way for Romney.

These most basic principles for running a successful campaign to win weren't undertaken by Benton and Ron Paul Inc. that's why -tactically - he should have no part of Rand 2016. Even if you have no integrity and will do any back room deal to win, you STILL need an organization on the ground to pull it off.

Strategically, what do they have to offer to "deal" with the opponent unless they have the numbers? Wouldn't the case be that they would have had stronger negotiating position with Romney if they knew Ron had a significant # of delegates? So even if their strategy was to make a back room deal with Romney, Benton should still be seen as not a good campaign manager because in order to have a good negotiating position you have to have power. The only way to have gotten power would have been to have the numbers to put us on par with Romney.

phill4paul
11-18-2014, 04:38 PM
That experience was enough for me to figure out that the campaign wasn't even pretending to try to get delegates or win. It was all about paving the way for Romney.


This seems to be a prevalent experience/belief of many of this forums activists. I'm sure Teh Collinz can come in and clear this up for us. "Get our heads on right" so to speak.

ghengis86
11-18-2014, 04:50 PM
This seems to be a prevalent experience/belief of many of this forums activists. I'm sure Teh Collinz can come in and clear this up for us. "Get our heads on right" so to speak.

Right. Not in it to win it, but in it to keep accepting donations under false pretenses and do the GOP's bidding to make things as easy as possible for their pre-selected nominee.

Anti Federalist
11-18-2014, 07:02 PM
Right. Not in it to win it, but in it to keep accepting donations under false pretenses and do the GOP's bidding to make things as easy as possible for their pre-selected nominee.

That was a shitty thing to do.

"Secret Delegate Strategy" my aching ass.

Anti Federalist
11-18-2014, 07:10 PM
Why in the world is Matt Collins worried with polling data in New Hampshire, where Ron Paul was polling second basically the entire time, but in Michigan where Ron Paul was polling third the entire time, the campaign spent at least $100,000 attacking Rick Santorum....helping Mitt Romney win that state?

You proved that Ron Paul won the county you ran the ad in, which is real world results, not polling data. It's not your fault you had to spend your own dime actually trying to win the state, while the campaign experts ignored the grassroots in the state.

I'm convinced it is because, at the "Benton" level of things, it was all decided months in advance, what the goal of the "official" campaign would be.

And a Ron Paul presidency was not part of that plan.

They hoodwinked good, honest and hardworking liberty folks into giving up their money, time and grassroots enthusiasm for a cynical political ploy.

Then shit on them, called them kooks, and fringe and weirdoes.

And Benton was the ringleader of that effort.

And to make matters worse, we have to listen to one of his crummy little toadies parroting the same bullshit, over and over.

staerker
11-18-2014, 07:19 PM
I'm convinced it is because, at the "Benton" level of things, it was all decided months in advance, what the goal of the "official" campaign would be.

And a Ron Paul presidency was not part of that plan.

They hoodwinked good, honest and hardworking liberty folks into giving up their money, time and grassroots enthusiasm for a cynical political ploy.

Then shit on them, called them kooks, and fringe and weirdoes.

And Benton was the ringleader of that effort.

And to make matters worse, we have to listen to one of his crummy little toadies parroting the same bullshit, over and over.

That's politics for you. And Rand 2016 will be no better. It's politics we're talking about, people.

ghengis86
11-18-2014, 07:21 PM
I'm convinced it is because, at the "Benton" level of things, it was all decided months in advance, what the goal of the "official" campaign would be.

And a Ron Paul presidency was not part of that plan.

They hoodwinked good, honest and hardworking liberty folks into giving up their money, time and grassroots enthusiasm for a cynical political ploy.

Then shit on them, called them kooks, and fringe and weirdoes.

And Benton was the ringleader of that effort.

And to make matters worse, we have to listen to one of his crummy little toadies parroting the same bullshit, over and over.

QFT.

acptulsa
11-18-2014, 07:53 PM
That's politics for you. And Rand 2016 will be no better. It's politics we're talking about, people.

I can think of one difference. Rand Paul can win. And, therefore, RandPaul2016 will likely not settle for less than the win.

ClydeCoulter
11-19-2014, 09:39 AM
I can think of one difference. Rand Paul can win. And, therefore, RandPaul2016 will likely not settle for less than the win.

That would be nice, the campaign really "in it to win it". In that case, the media hurdle might be easier to overcome.

I'm not sure that I agree that Ron could not have won, if the campaign was really behind him and the grassroots and doing all that they could to overcome the media hurdle.

helmuth_hubener
11-19-2014, 10:05 AM
I'm not sure that I agree that Ron could not have won, if the campaign was really behind him and the grassroots and doing all that they could to overcome the media hurdle.
There was a path to victory. It was conceivable, though certainly a very long shot. If Ron Paul had won the Iowa caucus straw poll on January 3rd, in my opinion things would have been different and he would have had a conceivable path to victory. And he came close to winning.

Anti Federalist
11-19-2014, 02:36 PM
There was a path to victory. It was conceivable, though certainly a very long shot. If Ron Paul had won the Iowa caucus straw poll on January 3rd, in my opinion things would have been different and he would have had a conceivable path to victory. And he came close to winning.

Collins' blathering notwithstanding, I am convinced, Ron could have won in NH, had he aggressively campaigned on the Northern Pass issue and Romney's staff connection to it.

Even more so if he had just come off an IA win.

[Mod Edit: Continuing discussion here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?327473-quot-And-there-s-no-way-no-way-I-ll-vote-for-Romney-quot-Read-on-this-may-be-THE-issue).]

specsaregood
11-19-2014, 02:45 PM
So after another long thread I think it is safe to say that no real case can be made for Benton being involved in any of Randal's future campaigns until at the very least this IA scandal is done with.

furthermore, there has not been any indication so far from anything official or even leaked that he will be. so, can we move on now? how about a positive thread discussing people we would be excited to see involved in his future campaigns?

Brian4Liberty
11-19-2014, 05:20 PM
...


Jessie Benton has played an important lead role in a number of high profile liberty campaigns to which his performance has been the subject of great debate and discussion here. While Jesse's high profile public position does make him a legitimate candidate for open criticism much of the discussions devolves into non-fruitful banter.

The scope of this thread is to evaluate Jesse's professional performance and the value proposition he has for future campaigns.


Discussion ground rules:
* The site guidelines apply, please re-read them: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989
* On-topic discussion is strictly limited to positives and negatives to Jesse Benton's professional services and his performance history. Off-topic comments will be deleted.
* Any attacks against Jesse's character are not allowed, stick to issues of Jesse's professional performance. Anything that can be legally viewed as slander or a false attack on Jesse's reputation will not be tolerated.
* Cite sources for all information. If the information is just that "someone told me", that's fine, but state it as such. Discussion on the validity of sources is on-topic.
* Let people draw their own conclusions, there is no value in trying to force yours on others. You must educate people to that point.


The objective of this discussion is to:
* Bring important issues to light in a responsible manner. We are a discussion board and people will discuss things of importance.
* Prevent having to constantly rehash this issue over and over in different threads, if the topic comes up again people can be redirected here. Bookmark this thread if the topic is important to you.


You will do your own reputation service to present your points in a well crafted, thoughtful manner.

This thread will be heavily moderated and violations will lead to strong moderation action.



.

specsaregood
11-20-2014, 09:59 AM
Since Chris Hightower removed himself from Rand Paul 2010 over much less serious accusations...why should Benton get a pass?

I guess because Hightower was a true supporter and didn't want to risk hurting the campaign.

jjdoyle
11-20-2014, 11:14 AM
For those that aren't aware of the ads run by Anti Federalist at the time, here's a post he made on it with picture included:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?346576-Ran-the-Northern-Pass-ad-again-today

specsaregood
11-20-2014, 11:18 AM
Pity the campaign didn't have a grassroots liaison sharp enough to tell the campaign this was going on so they could conduct a poll at the time. Might have yielded useful data.

Can we start some new threads with the same title except substituting Jesse Benton for other names?

acptulsa
11-20-2014, 11:30 AM
I happen to believe in microtargeting, myself.

Goes along with my libertarian love of decentralization, I guess.

jjdoyle
11-20-2014, 01:48 PM
Is Williamson County and Shelby County close at all? Or even Williamson and Davidson?

Did you lie about Tom Woods on the first page of this thread, and your phone call with Jesse Benton regarding that matter, or did you not?
I haven't seen anything from 2011 where Tom Woods publicly attacked the campaign, but he did give some good advice to it a few times in 2011.

Why wouldn't Jesse Benton just call up Tom Woods, instead of wasting his time calling you? Wouldn't a good campaign manager go directly to the source, of some supposed problem that was hurting the campaign?

Also, did you contact Tom Woods yourself about the supposed issue?

CPUd
11-20-2014, 05:52 PM
Did you lie about Tom Woods on the first page of this thread, and your phone call with Jesse Benton regarding that matter, or did you not?
I haven't seen anything from 2011 where Tom Woods publicly attacked the campaign, but he did give some good advice to it a few times in 2011.

Why wouldn't Jesse Benton just call up Tom Woods, instead of wasting his time calling you? Wouldn't a good campaign manager go directly to the source, of some supposed problem that was hurting the campaign?

Also, did you contact Tom Woods yourself about the supposed issue?

He said he had screenshots, but he won't post them publicly.

Crashland
11-20-2014, 06:34 PM
He said he had screenshots, but he won't post them publicly.

I wouldn't be particularly interested in screenshots. He should be able to point to something still online now that shows it. If the only evidence is his own personal screenshots, then it wasn't really public. This is the internet - you can't just erase all traces of something like that, especially if it supposedly had a significant effect. There should still be the source material, if not piles of secondary material referring to it, some of which would be bound to be right here on RPF.

jjdoyle
11-20-2014, 06:41 PM
He said he had screenshots, but he won't post them publicly.

Ah, so he's able to make false (lying) claims, with no actual evidence provided, like:


And I can tell you from first hand experience that when Tom started publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011, Jesse called me and asked me what was going on. He had the utmost respect for Tom at the time (as did I) and was trying to figure out any way we could get Tom to act like a mature adult. Unfortunately Tom insisted on airing his personal laundry out in public and bashing the campaign like a spoiled bratty child.

And moderators allow that to exist with no evidence provided to back it up, despite Tom Woods saying the opposite? I mean, if it was done publicly as was stated, I would imagine it would have been posted on these very forums in 2011 when it happened, with how quickly things were spread. No?

I even searched a few times, giving Matt Collins the benefit of the doubt, and couldn't find any 2011 public attack. I then contacted Tom Woods directly, and he said:

"I still have Jesse's correspondence with me from that time, so I can prove that this version of events is a fantasy. Benton wanted me to act like a mature adult? Benton the potty mouth wants Woods to act like an adult? That sounds plausible.

Moreover, everything I said about certain individuals in the campaign is available at my blog at TomWoods.com. None of it is vitriolic or in any way unreasonable. So there's no need to take the word of this Benton apologist -- or my word, for that matter. See what I wrote for yourself.

There is no one on earth, apart from five people in the Benton circle, who has ever accused me of a lack of maturity.

Furthermore, if I were really "attacking Ron's campaign," as opposed to criticizing certain people who obviously did not have Ron's best interests at heart, why am I so close to Ron today? Why did he write the foreword to my most recent book? Why do I appear on his show, and he on mine? Why was I asked to design courses for his homeschool curriculum? Why does his whole family read my books and pose for pictures with me?"

And then in a follow-up email:

"I just realized: to the contrary, I kept everything to myself for Ron's sake. I never said a word about what I knew about Benton's incompetence and overall sleaziness. Not a word. I did that for Ron, not for Benton. Even though Benton was bad-mouthing me to Ron every single day, I kept quiet. And for Collins, a Benton acolyte, who was elevated to whatever stature he had by Benton, to attack me now is beyond laughable."

In the follow-up, Mr. Woods was talking about not saying anything in 2011, not 2012.

CPUd
11-20-2014, 06:45 PM
I wouldn't be particularly interested in screenshots. He should be able to point to something still online now that shows it. If the only evidence is his own personal screenshots, then it wasn't really public. This is the internet - you can't just erase all traces of something like that, especially if it supposedly had a significant effect. There should still be the source material, if not piles of secondary material referring to it, some of which would be bound to be right here on RPF.

He said it was Facebook, so it may not have been completely public:

That is part of it yes, but Tom posted some pretty inflammatory and insulting Facebook posts. I have screenshots, but I am not going to post them because it does no good to do so.

jjdoyle
11-20-2014, 06:58 PM
He said it was Facebook, so it may not have been completely public:

FWIW, I searched Tom's Facebook page, didn't find any in 2011.

ghengis86
11-21-2014, 06:14 PM
FWIW, I searched Tom's Facebook page, didn't find any in 2011.

That's because he took them down. But I have the screenshots. Believe me. I make extraordinary claims, but I withhold my extraordinary evidence.

Badger Paul
11-21-2014, 10:16 PM
"And for Collins, a Benton acolyte, who was elevated to whatever stature he had by Benton, to attack me now is beyond laughable."

Well now we can take The Collins for what he is: a grain of salt. Literally and figuratively.

Aside from the whole Woods dispute, lets look at this logically. Why would Rand bring into his campaign, someone who could well be indicted, who resigned under an ethical cloud, whose very hire would sow division amongst his own supporters, whose very presence in Iowa would very much turn grassroots powerbrokers against Rand and who would become a weapon to use against Rand in a huge candidate field?

Your guess is a good as mine.

You're right Collins, the grassroots has no say in this matter. I've been saying for a long time the "claque" has no use for the grassroots and we're all going to find this out here shortly. But given aforementioned reasons I put forth, it would not make any kind of political sense at all to employ Benton in any kind of offical capacity with the 2016 camapaign. At best, he could run a PAC or something not connected with the official campaign that would keep him out of the spotlight. At worse, well, maybe can he get a job in the real world and make an honest living for once instead of being a parasite whose very presence make sure government never gets smaller. The good Lord willing.

As for the McConell endorsement, certainly it doesn't hurt. One wishes to have the whole state behind one's Presidential bid. Maybe it will open some financial doors for Rand too. But if you think McConnell is going to be busting his arse for Rand, think again. He's got a Senate to run, and not going to waste his time running around church basements in Iowa pumping the flesh for Rand. In other words, don't make too much of it. It certainly won't be scaring off other prospective candidates.

jjdoyle
12-03-2014, 01:48 PM
From another thread...


And honestly, how cost effective was it to hire a guy to sit around arguing on an internet forum all day, really?

Only Matt Collins and those involved with Ron Paul 2012 would know, and maybe even Josh and Bryan if Matt Collins was getting or trying to get certain campaigns to advertise on Ron Paul Forums.
How many liberty activist members did Matt Collins have banned and run off from the forums though, because the moderating team and admin team were apparently at Matt Collins' barking orders for years?

Why was he here? Apparently to try and direct grassroots' funds to the official campaign.

It has been 100% proven that Matt Collins has had members banned for doing no more than what he has done and was doing, and even worse some were banned based on 100% lies. And he remains. And yet, Bryan denied having knowledge of one incident, despite the fact that he was emailed information on that incident when it actually happened.

I can only hope that Bryan has seen the dishonesty and corruption that was within Ron Paul 2012 and Ron Paul Inc., and is struggling with it himself, and that is why there has been some changes. But when there are current moderators and even Bryan still deleting posts and lying about situations, I think we know why Matt Collins has been allowed to stay here protected for years.

$$$$$$$$$

If Jesse Benton is involved with Rand in 2016, in any fashion, and those like Matt Collins, I can only imagine any threads of legitimate advice and questions will continue to be buried, locked, and deleted out of site.

Now it makes some sense, why the admin and moderating team were at Collins' barking orders for years, and burying, locking, deleting threads with legitimate questions and criticisms of Ron Paul 2012 and Ron Paul Inc.

Either they were 100% dishonest, and ignorant of their guidelines, and/or they were possibly concerned with promises from Matt Collins of trying and getting ads for the site and trying to protect Ron Paul Inc., because that might be where some of the revenue was said to be coming from. If it was the second, they were also the first, as they banned users for no reason and broke their own guidelines in the process.

So, if Jesse Benton and Matt Collins are looking for good campaign workers, I think Matt Collins already has some he may be asking from the admin and moderating team around here, and that makes a lot of sense.

But, based on the guidelines and what I would imagine is important to many in the movement and what some might expect at the very least from campaigns and candidates:
"1) Operate with ethically sound principles.
• Be honest and truthful."

I don't see any reason that Jesse Benton, Matt Collins, or those like them should be involved with Rand in 2016.

jjdoyle
12-03-2014, 01:48 PM
...

acptulsa
12-03-2014, 02:45 PM
I can only hope that Bryan has seen the dishonesty and corruption that was within Ron Paul 2012 and Ron Paul Inc., and is struggling with it himself, and that is why there has been some changes. But when there are current moderators and even Bryan still deleting posts and lying about situations, I think we know why Matt Collins has been allowed to stay here protected for years.

$$$$$$$$$

Is that really the only reasonable hypothesis you can come up with?

You forget that some of the people you're preaching to were actually here at the time. Since you weren't, we can all understand that you might not have much in the way of clues to go on in solving this 'mystery'. But you don't eve seem to be trying to put on Josh's or Bryan's shoes and walk a distance in them.

It isn't just a matter of running a very unofficial campaign site is tricky. It isn't just a matter of the bizarre labyrinth of modern campaign laws that leave the owners of sites liable for any obscure and unpublicized campaign finance laws that site members may violate. It's also a matter of this site's mission could be compromised in an instant by a well-meaning but uninformed person, or a hired (as the Nixon campaign called them) 'ratfucker' (sort of a hatchet man) doing something illegal here which torpedoes that campaign.

Matt Collins was with the campaign, no matter how peripherally or in what unimportant role, and having him here stood some chance of being beneficial to Ron Paul. Matt, however, was something of a loose cannon. So, we have Matt telling them the things he does with his sock puppets are important and having sock puppets was important because it allowed him to do things without seeming to be an employee of the campaign. And you had zealous troll hunters trying to expose all sock puppets. And you had some of us trying to help the mods ensure Matt did nothing to endanger either the site or the official campaign. And all of it was unprecedented--there were no classes Josh or Bryan could take to learn from people who had dealt with such situations before.

As for your perception of Collins' sway over the mods, all I can say is I'm just as certain as I can be without actually discussing the thing with mods past and present that he has tried to get me banned at least once. I've not only never been banned, however, I've never gotten an infraction.

I think both of these horses--Collins and Benton--are dead already. Even so, feel free to beat them as much as you wish. But don't talk out of your ass, please, as this thread is long enough and Benton has already gotten a whole lot more attention than he ever deserved.

acptulsa
12-03-2014, 02:45 PM
A mite redundant...

jjdoyle
12-03-2014, 03:20 PM
Is that really the only reasonable hypothesis you can come up with?

You forget that some of the people you're preaching to were actually here at the time. Since you weren't, we can all understand that you might not have much in the way of clues to go on in solving this 'mystery'. But you don't eve seem to be trying to put on Josh's or Bryan's shoes and walk a distance in them.

It isn't just a matter of running a very unofficial campaign site is tricky. It isn't just a matter of the bizarre labyrinth of modern campaign laws that leave the owners of sites liable for any obscure and unpublicized campaign finance laws that site members may violate. It's also a matter of this site's mission could be compromised in an instant by a well-meaning but uninformed person, or a hired (as the Nixon campaign called them) 'ratfucker' (sort of a hatchet man) doing something illegal here which torpedoes that campaign.

Matt Collins was with the campaign, no matter how peripherally or in what unimportant role, and having him here stood some chance of being beneficial to Ron Paul. Matt, however, was something of a loose cannon. So, we have Matt telling them the things he does with his sock puppets are important and having sock puppets was important because it allowed him to do things without seeming to be an employee of the campaign. And you had zealous troll hunters trying to expose all sock puppets. And you had some of us trying to help the mods ensure Matt did nothing to endanger either the site or the official campaign. And all of it was unprecedented--there were no classes Josh or Bryan could take to learn from people who had dealt with such situations before.

As for your perception of Collins' sway over the mods, all I can say is I'm just as certain as I can be without actually discussing the thing with mods past and present that he has tried to get me banned at least once. I've not only never been banned, however, I've never gotten an infraction.

I think both of these horses--Collins and Benton--are dead already. Even so, feel free to beat them as much as you wish. But don't talk out of your ass, please, as this thread is long enough and Benton has already gotten a whole lot more attention than he ever deserved.

Well since you apparently don't know that I was here, and/or in what capacity, Bryan does though. As do other members, and FWIW, I was here before your join date.

I have seen first-hand the moderating and admin team banning people with no reasons given, and lying about it. Repeatedly.
While certain members, like Matt Collins, have repeatedly gotten passes for actually breaking the guidelines, for years.

I have emailed Bryan and PMed him on the issues, and I get police department PR responses. "We're trying our best."
When I publicly posted the exchange with Bryan regarding one of the lying moderators, it was deleted by Bryan because it showed the moderator was still actively lying about the situation. And it was excused.

Then I see Bryan come into threads referencing the guidelines, and even saying he wasn't aware of members being banned for going back and forth, despite the fact I emailed him about that very issue and thread when it was happening, and Matt Collins was saying in the thread he would have people banned and they were being banned, but not Matt Collins. The more things change, the more they stay the same?

I have been a moderator on a site in the past and know what it's like, but I never banned a single actual member, and only banned the "BUY THESE SHOEZ" and "BUY THESE PRESCRIPTION DRUGZ" first time spam-poster accounts.
I also know other guys that run sites much larger than Ron Paul Forums, and they will actually respond to emails and PMs about concerns with the sites, and not with PR type responses.

So, I have put on Josh's and Bryan's type shoes, and walked in them. It's probably why I expect more, than I have seen around here with the burying threads, locking threads, deleting posts, and banning members that Matt Collins' can lie about and the moderators can lie about, and be protected.

William Tell
12-03-2014, 03:28 PM
In 2012 Benton did the dirty work that Ron needed to be kept clean from. If Rand hires him, it will be to do the same for him.

Although I do not like Benton, it is true that ultimately the responsibility for a campaign belongs to the candidate. Ron and Rand both surely know and knew how disliked Benton was. They do think he has value.

William Tell
12-03-2014, 04:15 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jjdoyle http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=5704466#post5704466)
Since Matt Collins made a false claim about Tom Woods attacking the campaign in 2011 on the first page, and the moderating team around here has allowed that to stay unverified, I decided to reach out to Mr. Woods directly, and he just said this:
"I still have Jesse's correspondence with me from that time, so I can prove that this version of events is a fantasy. Benton wanted me to act like a mature adult? Benton the potty mouth wants Woods to act like an adult? That sounds plausible.

Moreover, everything I said about certain individuals in the campaign is available at my blog at TomWoods.com. None of it is vitriolic or in any way unreasonable. So there's no need to take the word of this Benton apologist -- or my word, for that matter. See what I wrote for yourself.


There is no one on earth, apart from five people in the Benton circle, who has ever accused me of a lack of maturity.


Furthermore, if I were really "attacking Ron's campaign," as opposed to criticizing certain people who obviously did not have Ron's best interests at heart, why am I so close to Ron today? Why did he write the foreword to my most recent book? Why do I appear on his show, and he on mine? Why was I asked to design courses for his homeschool curriculum? Why does his whole family read my books and pose for pictures with me?"

Followed up with:
"I just realized: to the contrary, I kept everything to myself for Ron's sake. I never said a word about what I knew about Benton's incompetence and overall sleaziness. Not a word. I did that for Ron, not for Benton. Even though Benton was bad-mouthing me to Ron every single day, I kept quiet. And for Collins, a Benton acolyte, who was elevated to whatever stature he had by Benton, to attack me now is beyond laughable."
Thanks for contacting Tom.

Jamesiv1
12-04-2014, 12:54 AM
Aside from the whole Woods dispute, lets look at this logically. Why would Rand bring into his campaign, someone who could well be indicted, who resigned under an ethical cloud, whose very hire would sow division amongst his own supporters, whose very presence in Iowa would very much turn grassroots powerbrokers against Rand and who would become a weapon to use against Rand in a huge candidate field?
Because politics is dirty business, and good guys don't win - they finish last.

"The story of dirty tricks in American politics begins with the first campaign for President of the United States, in the 1790s. Thomas Jefferson hired journalist and pamphleteer James Thomas Callender to slander his opponent, Alexander Hamilton."

A guy that will perform dirty tricks is high value, and every campaign serious about winning must have at least one such guy on it's payroll. Why? Because that's politics.

Occam's Banana
12-04-2014, 01:12 AM
Because politics is dirty business, and good guys don't win - they finish last.

"The story of dirty tricks in American politics begins with the first campaign for President of the United States, in the 1790s. Thomas Jefferson hired journalist and pamphleteer James Thomas Callender to slander his opponent, Alexander Hamilton."

A guy that will perform dirty tricks is high value, and every campaign serious about winning must have at least one such guy on it's payroll. Why? Because that's politics.

Yeah, but even then, you still want someone whose dirty tricks haven't blown up in his face. And Benton doesn't seem to have passed that test ...

phill4paul
12-04-2014, 01:22 AM
Yeah, but even then, you still want someone whose dirty tricks haven't blown up in his face. And Benton doesn't seem to have passed that test ...

Kinda like hiring a known hit-man to do a hit for ya. Makes no sense. Yet, those that do a hit and don't rat get a cushy job and pension. We'll see if that's the case.

jjdoyle
01-08-2015, 09:12 PM
Tom Woods jokingly (?? maybe jokingly??) says his theory as to why Rand Paul might hire Jesse Benton:

http://youtu.be/6JxdDxqtyk0?t=23m

Matt Collins
01-08-2015, 10:17 PM
Tom Woods jokingly (?? maybe jokingly??) says his theory as to why Rand Paul might hire Jesse Benton:
With baseless accusations like that (not to mention intellectually irresponsible) Tom might one day find himself on the wrong end of a slander lawsuit.

jjdoyle
01-08-2015, 10:31 PM
With baseless accusations like that (not to mention intellectually irresponsible) Tom might one day find himself on the wrong end of a slander lawsuit.

Coming from the known liar on these very forums in regards to Tom Woods and a certain situation, that's fresh! Should I contact Tom Woods again, David?
Why would Rand hire Jesse Benton (or, John Tate, or any other Ron Paul 2012 staffer) when under his/their leadership Ron Paul got fewer votes than Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, but was in the race longer than both of them and raised more money than both of them?

Perhaps Jesse Benton and Rand were BOTH involved in the Kent Sorenson issue, and Jesse has emails on it connecting Rand to it? I mean, Ron Paul 2012 did what they did to help Rand anyway in 2016, so it's not really a far stretch that Rand might have been more involved than we know behind-the-scenes to make sure his speaking slot at the RNC was all nice and setup.

idiom
01-09-2015, 11:25 PM
For:
Rand is now a Senator who is inexplicably best buds with the MAJORITY LEADER. Jesse Benton was involved in getting there.

Against:
Benton has a track record of poor character so far, I want a PRESIDENT who surrounds himself with reliable trustworthy people. Ron couldn't do this and it was his biggest red flag against being President. Poor selection of staff was the proximate cause of the newsletter scandal. If this tragic flaw has passed down to Rand then pray to God that Rand is limited to Congress.

Question: What WHITEHOUSE position do you think Benton deserves? Would you trust him to advise your PRESIDENT?

jjdoyle
01-10-2015, 06:59 PM
For:
Rand is now a Senator who is inexplicably best buds with the MAJORITY LEADER. Jesse Benton was involved in getting there.

Against:
Benton has a track record of poor character so far, I want a PRESIDENT who surrounds himself with reliable trustworthy people. Ron couldn't do this and it was his biggest red flag against being President. Poor selection of staff was the proximate cause of the newsletter scandal. If this tragic flaw has passed down to Rand then pray to God that Rand is limited to Congress.

Question: What WHITEHOUSE position do you think Benton deserves? Would you trust him to advise your PRESIDENT?

Questions: Why does Jesse Benton deserve a White House position? When running the campaign in 2012 with the most common sense, fiscally conservative, constitutional candidate the campaign couldn't get more votes than Rick Santorum? Or, Newt Gingrich? Never attacked Mitt Romney in any state with his own TV ad? Did things that look like they not only agreed to not attack Mitt Romney before Michigan, but also then helped him win the nomination?

Ron Paul 2012 has currently paid a few hundred thousand dollars in regards to the FEC investigation regarding Kent Sorenson, so no, I would not trust him to advise my President.

And yes, I think Rand has the tragic flaw of hiring poor staff, and it is reflected not only with some that he has hired/fired (or, those that have resigned), but more so in his current political positions he is taking, because he/they don't know how to word things properly. So, instead of embracing the truth and spreading it, they are pandering on issues that make Rand simply look like "one of the team".

H. E. Panqui
01-16-2015, 04:01 PM
jj doyle writes: When running the campaign in 2012 with the most common sense, fiscally conservative, constitutional candidate the campaign couldn't get more votes than Rick Santorum? Or, Newt Gingrich? Never attacked Mitt Romney in any state with his own TV ad? Did things that look like they not only agreed to not attack Mitt Romney before Michigan, but also then helped him win the nomination?


(i read this thread and came out shaking my head in disgust.. wondering why i spent any of my life trying to get Ron Paul nominated by the stinking Republican Party Inc....thanks jj doyle and others for enlightening me somewhat..but i think it's obviously unfair to blame anyone (including suspected sleazy Republicrat chuckleheads Benton and Collins) for the inability of a decent, thoughtful person to get nominated by these stinking Republicans...most/all of the Republicans i know are gd fool warmonger apologists, monetary ignoramuses, radio parrots etc..WHEN HAVE THESE STINKING REPUBLICANS EVER NOMINATED A TRULY DECENT, THOUGHTFUL PERSON?!?..

...that ?Ron Paul would hire? the likes of this "Collins" (who at least tries to defend/explain himself) and Benton, who can/will not, makes me question his judgment...and if the stinking 'Romney strategy' alluded to has any merit, i can't believe Ron himself would not have been 'in on it'...that is damning, imo..

jjdoyle
01-16-2015, 05:54 PM
(mod edit) over spilt milk...

You are 100% incorrect. Ron Paul 2012 is (or, was as of the last FEC report) sitting on over $500K cash-on-hand, refusing donor refund requests, and is still paying out legal fees for the apparent Jesse Benton and Dimitri Kesari defense fund.
And, Rand Paul said Jesse would probably be involved in any potential 2016 campaign, so until we know that he isn't, this should probably be stickied to the top of the forum with Rand's office number and email address so it is easy for some to remind him that many active grassroots would probably prefer Jesse Benton not to be involved.

If Ron Paul 2012 wasn't still wasting funds, not answering questions, and Rand wasn't making the same stupid political mistakes (some even worse, IMO) as the past, it might be over spilt milk. The milk is still spilling as far as I can tell, and the people spilling it are the problem.