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James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 12:27 PM
http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/jerusalem-post-confirms-israel-knew-usaliberty-was-american/article/413296

Jerusalem Post confirms Israel knew USS Liberty was American

A 2004 transcript of an Israeli military tape published in the Jerusalem Post supports the unanimous position of the survivors and many high-ranking US officers that Israeli forces knew the USS Liberty was an American ship, as they attempted to sink it.

The Liberty was the only ship of its kind at the time, easily distinguishable for the huge satellite dishes mounted on its deck and the bristling array of antennae which served as the spy ship's "ears."

The survivors, and the audio tape on which the transcript is based, are presented in a new documentary which was broadcast on the Al Jazeera America channel last week. The audio tape has never been heard before by an American audience. The film "The Day Israel Attacked America" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5v27ZEp3EM) is directed and produced by British film maker Richard Belfield. (http://unitedagents.co.uk/richard-belfield)

Israel has long maintained, with official US government inquiries agreeing, that the attack was a case of mistaken identity. However, a growing chorus of critics, and the USS Liberty survivors themselves, say the official reports (http://www.gtr5.com/Reports.htm) are cover-ups of an incident in which American sailors were ruthlessly, deliberately attacked in order to draw the US into war with Egypt (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2003/10/23/ex-navy-official-167-israeli-attack-on-us-ship-was-deliberate/), by blaming it for the loss of the ship with all hands. Israel was engaged in the Six Day War with Egypt and other Arab states at the time.

The attack, which commenced on June 8th, 1967 at 1:58 p.m. local time with strafing runs by Israeli Mirage jet fighters, lasted for approximately two hours, after seven to nine reconnaissance flights over the Liberty by slow-moving Israeli patrol planes beginning at 5:30 a.m. Liberty survivors are unanimous in their conviction that the attackers knew the ship was American, and that they were trying hard to sink it. Expended over the course of the attack were over 800 rounds of 30mm cannon, air-to-surface rockets, heat-seeking missiles, napalm bombs, and five torpedoes.

In the documentary, during the course of the attack, at 2:14 p.m., 16 minutes after the first strafing run begins, voices of Israeli military controllers are heard to say, as the timeline is counted in the background:

"To what state does she belong?" (Answer): "American"

Supporting the authenticity of the tape, in 2004 the Jerusalem Post published what it said was a transcript of Israeli military transmissions directing the attack on the USS Liberty. In that transcript, at precisely the same time, 2:14pm, the exchange translated from Hebrew to English is reported:

"Kislev, what country?" (Answer): "Apparently American."

[Jerusalem Post archives (http://www.jpost.com/Cooperations/Archives/), "Exclusive: Liberty attack tapes revealed," June 3, 2004, by Arieh O'Sullivan, article copy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1148399/posts?page=33)]

The Post transcript ends with this transmission. However, the attack continued (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-ameu.html) for another hour and a half. Twenty minutes after the indication of positive identification, an Israeli torpedo boat approaches and fires five torpedoes, one of which hits the starboard bow and nearly sinks the ship.

Although the Israeli government maintains to this day that the Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship, the Israeli attack aircraft were unmarked. The Liberty survivors and the many skeptics of Israel's "accident" explanation point out that open warfare was already taking place at the time with Egypt, and there would be no reason to use aircraft with its markings meticulously painted over.

The matching timeline substantiates the authenticity of the tape broadcast, as raw audio with subtitled translation, by Al Jazeera America. The match indicates that the tape broadcast by Al Jazeera, and the tape on which the Jerusalem Post based its transcript, are the same.

The translated transcript of the raw audio published by the Post was made by a Post reporter who was allowed to listen to the tape. Even prior to the attack, Israeli military personnel are heard questioning whether the ship was American, at 1:53pm in the tape. In the Al Jazeera translation of the tape Israeli military personnel are heard saying in an intriguing exchange:

"Is it an American ship?" "What do you mean American?" "No comment."

As the torpedo hits 20 minutes after a ground controller acknowledges the ship is American, a voice is heard casually saying: "The torpedo is talking care of the ship now."

In the Jerusalem Post transcript of the tape, no mention is made of a torpedo hitting the ship, although a torpedo hole is clearly visible in the ship's damage. The official Israeli Defense Forces report on the attack acknowledges the launch of torpedoes 25 minutes after the fact that the ship is American is mentioned ("IDF History Report: The Attack on the 'Liberty' Incident." (http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/idfhr.htm))

After the torpedo hits, torpedo boats circle, machine-gunning the ship with armor-piercing projectiles for another 40 minutes. At 3:15 p.m., as lifeboats are lowered into the water, the Israelis pull up at close range and proceed to machine-gun the lifeboats. This is a full hour after confirmation has been given that the ship is American.

Sexual innuendo is heard in describing the actions of the Israeli military as the Liberty crew fights fires and tends to the wounded. Thirty-four US sailors were killed. As the attack controllers mull using napalm one asks "Do we screw her?"

The Post and Al Jazeera tape are but a small part of the volumes of evidence that Israel knew what it was doing that has yet to be released. Steve Forslundan (http://www.ussliberty.org/forslund.htm), who was an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha, states that the real-time intelligence he was reading as the day progressed:

"made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller. Upon arrival, the aircraft specifically identified the target and mentioned the American flag she was flying. There were frequent operational transmissions from the pilots to the ground base describing the strafing runs. The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace."

http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/8/9/4/8/6/7/i/2/1/2/o/egyptianship.jpg (http://www.digitaljournal.com/image/212718) USS Liberty scale size profile in comparison to Egyptian ship which Israel maintains it was mistaken for.
http://www.gtr5.com/
Like this image (http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/jerusalem-post-confirms-israel-knew-usaliberty-was-american/article/413296)



Prior to the airing of "The Day Israel Attacked America," a long list of public figures, including those of highest US military rank, have backed the survivors' contention that the Israelis meant to sink the Liberty knowing full well that the ship was American. These include Secretary of State Dean Rusk (http://www.amazon.com/As-Saw-It-Dean-Rusk/dp/0140153918), who held that office at the time of the incident, Director of the NSA Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, US Senator Adlai Stevenson (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-okeefe.html), and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. Moorer concluded in his own investigation (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ul-moorer.html): "In attacking the USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against U.S. servicemen and an act of war against the United States." ...READ THE FULL ARTICLE HERE http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/jerusalem-post-confirms-israel-knew-usaliberty-was-american/article/413296


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5mu79ygShs

Warrior_of_Freedom
11-10-2014, 12:32 PM
OP obviously hates jews

Dr.3D
11-10-2014, 12:34 PM
OP obviously hates jews
Yeah, they eat babies too.

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 12:43 PM
Still no mention of the USS Liberty's mission.

My hypothesis is that LBJ was double-dealing on SIGINT, and the Israelis sunk the ship to shut that channel down. Neither side wanted to admit the whole story because both were in the wrong, so both cooperated in covering it up. The USS Liberty was at the time a cutting-edge intelligence-gathering platform hanging out on the edge of a war zone.

James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 12:49 PM
Still no mention of the USS Liberty's mission.

My hypothesis is that LBJ was double-dealing on SIGINT, and the Israelis sunk the ship to shut that channel down. Neither side wanted to admit the whole story because both were in the wrong, so both cooperated in covering it up. The USS Liberty was at the time a cutting-edge intelligence-gathering platform hanging out on the edge of a war zone.

Liberty's mission was to keep track of what was going on in the Six Day War and protect America's interests.

They didn't sink the ship, which is why they had a problem. Israel's plan was no witnesses, blame Egypt, Americans incinerate Cairo. LBJ was probably onboard with the program. Sixth Fleet commander Admiral Lawrence Geis said they were having a live nuclear-armed drill that day, how convenient. Those sailors probably stopped WWIII.

specsaregood
11-10-2014, 12:49 PM
What possible reasoning do people offer for why Israel would attack our ship intentionally?

edit: james offered one as I was typing that.

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 12:52 PM
My hypothesis offers a less extreme explanation. If a third party is giving SIGINT to the enemy, its signal collections become a valid military target. I don't think the type of ship that this was can be easily dismissed as a non-factor.

Warrior_of_Freedom
11-10-2014, 12:54 PM
"...but German zionist groups seeing an opportunity, made a deal with Britain to get the U.S. into the war if Britain promised to give the Jews Palestine. The British agreed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itmiffGBHoE

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 12:57 PM
Liberty's mission was to keep track of what was going on in the Six Day War and protect America's interests.

I don't buy that part at all, given that I don't see "global hegemony" as a legitimate American interest.

James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 01:00 PM
My hypothesis offers a less extreme explanation. If a third party is giving SIGINT to the enemy, its signal collections become a valid military target. I don't think the type of ship that this was can be easily dismissed as a non-factor.

No your hypothesis posits that LBJ had taken the Egyptian side and was giving them SIGINT during the Six Day War is about an extreme a hypothesis as you can imagine, with not a shred of evidence. On the other hand Israel had already shown its penchant for false flag attacks in the Lavon Affair, when they planted a bomb in the American embassy in order to blame Egypt. The backstabbing of allies in order to draw them into its wars is entirely in keeping with Israel's M.O.

amy31416
11-10-2014, 01:06 PM
Never join the military.

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 01:09 PM
No your hypothesis posits that LBJ had taken the Egyptian side and was giving them SIGINT during the Six Day War is about an extreme a hypothesis as you can imagine, with not a shred of evidence. On the other hand Israel had already shown its penchant for false flag attacks in the Lavon Affair, when they planted a bomb in the American embassy in order to blame Egypt. The backstabbing of allies in order to draw them into its wars is entirely in keeping with Israel's M.O.

Then what's the explanation for LBJ first ordering the ship to the location where it was attacked, then later being complicit in a cover-up?

If it was a straight-up false flag, and LBJ wasn't in on it, and he hadn't been caught playing both sides of the fence, why would the US silently accept the attack? The US actions have no good explanation, which tells me that there was more going on than we yet know.

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 01:21 PM
No your hypothesis posits that LBJ had taken the Egyptian side and was giving them SIGINT during the Six Day War is about an extreme a hypothesis as you can imagine

By the way, the US taking both sides of a conflict is most definitely our M.O. Just look at the ISIS fiasco going on right now, bombing them while supplying them.

The most extreme thing in this conversation is your quasi-religious certainty that you know all the facts when it's clear that there are major unknown facts that are yet to be revealed.

James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 01:25 PM
Then what's the explanation for LBJ first ordering the ship to the location where it was attacked, then later being complicit in a cover-up?

If it was a straight-up false flag, and LBJ wasn't in on it, and he hadn't been caught playing both sides of the fence, why would the US silently accept the attack? The US actions have no good explanation, which tells me that there was more going on than we yet know.

Admiral Lawrence Geis, Sixth Fleet commander, said that two flights of American fighters launched from his ships were ordered recalled by LBJ (through SecDef Mcnamara). Read Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer's report. http://wais.stanford.edu/USA/US_USSLiberty%28110503%29.html

So to this extent LBJ was in on it. Whether he was in on it from the start or as he understood he could now bomb Cairo we don't know. The fact that the Sixth Fleet was having a nuclear-armed drill that day, and planes were already armed with nuclear weapons, suggests LBJ was in on the program. He could care less about the murdered sailors.

James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 01:28 PM
The most extreme thing in this conversation is your quasi-religious certainty that you know all the facts when it's clear that there are major unknown facts that are yet to be revealed.

...LOL this is how people sound when they are losing the argument. :D

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 01:29 PM
Admiral Lawrence Geis, Sixth Fleet commander, said that two flights of American fighters launched from his ships were ordered recalled by LBJ (through SecDef Mcnamara). Read Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer's report. http://wais.stanford.edu/USA/US_USSLiberty%28110503%29.html

So to this extent LBJ was in on it. Whether he was in on it from the start or as he understood he could now bomb Cairo we don't know. The fact that the Sixth Fleet was having a nuclear-armed drill that day, and planes were already armed with nuclear weapons, suggests LBJ was in on the program. He could care less about the murdered sailors.

Suddenly my hypothesis looks a lot less extreme, now doesn't it. Also this means any Israeli false flag plot must necessarily have been a U.S.-Israeli false flag plot, which raises the possibility that the origin of the plot was American rather than Israeli.

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 01:29 PM
...LOL this is how people sound when they are losing the argument. :D

No, that's how people sound when they're arguing with a fanatic's doctrine-based argument.

James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 01:31 PM
No, that's how people sound when they're arguing with a fanatic's doctrine-based argument.

LOL more ad hominem. Guess I win. :cool:

James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 01:33 PM
Suddenly my hypothesis looks a lot less extreme, now doesn't it. Also this means any Israeli false flag plot must necessarily have been a U.S.-Israeli false flag plot, which raises the possibility that the origin of the plot was American rather than Israeli.

That's possible. The only thing that is impossible, and the point of the post, is that Israel did not know the ship was American.

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 01:33 PM
LOL more ad hominem. Guess I win. :cool:

Win what? You've already conceded your original point was, at the minimum, highly incomplete.

Why so little curiosity as to what LBJ's role was, when you have demonstrated it to be a vital part of understanding the incident? Did Israel attack the ship at LBJ's request?

thoughtomator
11-10-2014, 01:34 PM
That's possible. The only thing that is impossible, and the point of the post, is that Israel did not know the ship was American.

I'm not arguing whether they knew it was American. I am assuming that they did know. That still does not give us a "why", at least not without understanding LBJ's full role in the matter.

jmdrake
11-10-2014, 01:43 PM
Then what's the explanation for LBJ first ordering the ship to the location where it was attacked, then later being complicit in a cover-up?

If it was a straight-up false flag, and LBJ wasn't in on it, and he hadn't been caught playing both sides of the fence, why would the US silently accept the attack? The US actions have no good explanation, which tells me that there was more going on than we yet know.

Ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin? Hint, LBJ was president.

James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 01:47 PM
I'm not arguing whether they knew it was American. I am assuming that they did know. That still does not give us a "why", at least not without understanding LBJ's full role in the matter.

The US government's official position, the conclusion of the US Navy Court of Inquiry, is that it was a tragic accident and instance of misidentification. There can be no asking "why" until this travesty of a conclusion is corrected. In any criminal investigation first you settle "who" and "how," before you ask "why." I want to kinow as much as you do.

MoveOn of all people has a petition to reinvestigate and start getting at the truth: http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/investigate-the-attack

Danke
11-10-2014, 01:49 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?462302-The-day-Israel-attacked-America

enhanced_deficit
11-10-2014, 02:08 PM
What possible reasoning do people offer for why Israel would attack our ship intentionally?

edit: james offered one as I was typing that.


Could be similar reasons:

Israel's plan was to bomb Western targets, make it seem as though Egypt was behind the attacks

Nov. 11, 2009
The Lavon affair - also known locally as esek habish, "the rotten business" - was a plan to discredit Egypt's government, then headed by Gamal Abdel Nasser, by bombing theaters, post offices and U.S. and British institutions, and making it seem as though Egypt was behind the bombings. The thinking in Israel at the time was that if the British were to give up control of the Suez Canal, it would be left in Egypt's hands, putting Cairo in a better position to exert pressure on Israel.
The agents were told "to undermine the West's trust in the [Egyptian] government by causing public insecurity" while concealing Israel's role in the sabotage.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...s-later-1.4385 (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/mi-figures-out-what-went-wrong-in-lavon-affair-55-years-later-1.4385)

HOLLYWOOD
11-10-2014, 02:36 PM
Read the Kissinger Cables from WIKILEAKS... directly from the government-Embassy's mouth(cables/Telex). No further debate is needed... it was a crafted false flag by the Israeli government. The bought and paid for American government covered it up, as well as US Zionist media, blah blah blah... it's all there. Go read the cables...

PS: While your there, read all the ones about Libya. You'll get true .gov information of how the government ia a premeditated global abrutal arm oppression, thievery, and murderous force. Cables reveal it all, which is to serve the; Marxists, oligarchs, Fascists, and Money Masters, that control the bought and paid for sociopathic political whores.

Ronin Truth
11-10-2014, 02:49 PM
https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=ww&ei=PhBhVPa5E6eBiwLlpYCACg&ved=0CAoQ1S4#q=USS+Liberty

twomp
11-10-2014, 03:05 PM
Anti-semites are rampant on this forum

James_Madison_Lives
11-10-2014, 03:26 PM
Anti-semites are rampant on this forum

So are standard Zionist disinformation tactics, criticism of Israel = anti-semitism.

Are these guys anti-semites too? They don't think Israel should exist as it is today, and is against the Torah. The Torah proclaims that Israel would not come into being until the coming of the Messiah (the Second Coming for Christians.) They call themselves Jews Against Zionism (http://www.truetorahjews.org/).

http://www.truetorahjews.org/

Rabbi Weiss of Jews Against Zionism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9OIqy6md9w


The true Torah solution, the key to peace is the immediate return of Palestine to the Palestinians in its entirety including the Temple Mount and Jerusalem.

This would, of course, include a full right of return for all Palestinian refuges. That is what elementary justice demands. This is the path of the Torah and of common sense.

The Jewish people have many mitzvos (commandments) to pursue in their exile. Fighting and killing Palestinian children are not among them.- Rabbi Yosreal Weiss

dannno
11-10-2014, 04:54 PM
Anti-semites are rampant on this forum

And apparently at the Jerusalem Post :confused:

That was not your brightest comment.

enhanced_deficit
11-11-2014, 04:48 AM
But in bigger scheme of things, they is still our closest ally and the only non-racist democracy in mideast with a negligible burden on US taxpayers.

H. E. Panqui
11-11-2014, 07:12 AM
E-D, I literally gurgled with laughter!..

Btw, I sense the Glenn Beck Randers who hurl the 'anti-semite' label are ignorant of the fact that most 'IZraelis' are not truly 'semitic'...'the palestinians,' etc. are 'semitic'...therefore, only a GD fool wouldn't/couldn't conclude that the Izraelis for whom the Republicrats suck are THE WORST 'ANTI-SEMITES' ON THE PLANET!!!

(turn off the Rush Limbaugh and get a library card!!) ;)

ClydeCoulter
11-11-2014, 08:06 AM
And apparently at the Jerusalem Post :confused:

That was not your brightest comment.

It seems that "/sarc" is considered to be "passe" or "understood" by many posters.

FloralScent
11-11-2014, 08:49 AM
But in bigger scheme of things, they is still our closest ally and the only non-racist democracy in mideast with a negligible burden on US taxpayers.

You're kidding right? Sometimes I can't tell.

Inkblots
11-11-2014, 09:39 AM
...LOL this is how people sound when they are losing the argument. :D

Having read through it all, you pretty plainly lost the argument. thoughtomator's explanation makes much more sense and accounts for the facts better than yours. Sorry, fella.

pcosmar
11-11-2014, 10:03 AM
But in bigger scheme of things, they is still our closest ally and the only non-racist democracy in mideast with a negligible burden on US taxpayers.

Wow..
I would have liked to see the facial contortions that went with that post.

James_Madison_Lives
11-11-2014, 01:48 PM
Having read through it all, you pretty plainly lost the argument. thoughtomator's explanation makes much more sense and accounts for the facts better than yours. Sorry, fella.

Guess you either haven't been following too closely or you don't read too good, fella. I already won the argument. Thoughtomor agrees the Israelis knew the ship was American. His question is "why," on which I can agree to disagree. That the attack was deliberate, calcualted, and pre-planned is all the OP sets out to prove. But thanks for playing ;)

H. E. Panqui
11-11-2014, 04:55 PM
Dr3D writes: "Yeah, they eat babies too."


Top Radio Rander, Alex Jones, knows who the baby eaters are! But then again Alex may be projecting...looks like the loudmouth Republican apparatchik has swallowed a few babies himself!!...(he enjoys them with fava beans and tangy tangerine!) ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnIMdXVXimY

dillo
11-11-2014, 05:59 PM
What possible reasoning do people offer for why Israel would attack our ship intentionally?

edit: james offered one as I was typing that.

The same reason that the Israelis wanted to bomb our embassies, to blame the muslims

Dr.3D
11-11-2014, 06:04 PM
Dr3D writes: "Yeah, they eat babies too."


Top Radio Rander, Alex Jones, knows who the baby eaters are! But then again Alex may be projecting...looks like the loudmouth Republican apparatchik has swallowed a few babies himself!!...(he enjoys them with fava beans and tangy tangerine!) ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnIMdXVXimY
Oh please, every good Jew knows babies aren't kosher.

squarepusher
11-11-2014, 06:17 PM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/435043943172720/

Dr.3D
11-11-2014, 06:19 PM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/435043943172720/

Says I need to log into an account I don't have.

ClydeCoulter
11-11-2014, 07:17 PM
Says I need to log into an account I don't have.

"USS Liberty Truthers Exposed" group is at that fb link.

One comment on an article:


Nevada libertarians all believe this.
http://www.gtr5.com/


It has (of course) been endlessly investigated - and found to be a mistake (not some deliberate attack on the United States). If the Nevada LP really believe that Israel wanted to kill Americans, this is yet another reason the LP is nuts.

COpatriot
11-11-2014, 07:20 PM
Anyone just now learning this fact is 47 years late to the party.

Dr.3D
11-11-2014, 08:06 PM
Anyone just now learning this fact is 47 years late to the party.
Yeah, but know know how it is, when you're pissed at Israel, anytime is a good time to bring up old news.

Danke
11-11-2014, 08:15 PM
Yeah, but know know how it is, when you're pissed at Israel, anytime is a good time to bring up old news.

I doubt many people know of it. And since Israel is a major part of our foreign policy, I think it is relevant.

H. E. Panqui
11-12-2014, 07:52 AM
Anyone just now learning this fact is 47 years late to the party.


(only 47 years late?!...when it come to 'the money thing'..the vampire bank of england was chartered in ?1694!!..the dense Republicrats are some 320 years late...AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T LEARNED...)

James_Madison_Lives
11-17-2014, 05:07 PM
Yeah, but know know how it is, when you're pissed at Israel, anytime is a good time to bring up old news.

Isn't it outrageuous that the Liberty veterans still living with debilitating wounds from the attack, nightmares, broken marriages from PTSD, not to mention the families of the 34 dead are still "pissed at Israel." Don't you wish they would just disappear or get over it?

Dr.3D
11-17-2014, 05:23 PM
Isn't it outrageuous that the Liberty veterans still living with debilitating wounds from the attack, nightmares, broken marriages from PTSD, not to mention the families of the 34 dead are still "pissed at Israel." Don't you wish they would just disappear or get over it?
I was told just the other day, that veterans are trash and they deserve what happened to them. That made me feel pretty bad considering I'm a veteran. The discourse in these forums is mind bending.

thoughtomator
11-17-2014, 05:31 PM
Isn't it outrageuous that the Liberty veterans still living with debilitating wounds from the attack, nightmares, broken marriages from PTSD, not to mention the families of the 34 dead are still "pissed at Israel." Don't you wish they would just disappear or get over it?

I find it more outrageous that they can't get the truth from the US government than that they can't get the truth from a foreign government. But I don't have a particular axe to grind on a particular foreign government, and find it curious that those that do don't seem to be concerned at all about what exactly the main player, LBJ, was doing and why.