GMO labeling on the Ballot in Oregon

[Natural Citizen]

This is really interesting because chemical companies from outside states have spent upwards of 25 million dollars fighting this. This is a record. And what is interesting is that we have a public vote for labeling and it's really tight. Even if they lose they've pulled off a huge fight. And one that won't go away after the night is through.


Food labeling

Would require genetically engineered foods to be labeled as such.
50.6% Reporting



No

50.7%

390,167



Yes

49.3%

379,852






Recreational marijuana

Would legalize the sale and use of recreational marijuana.
50.6% Reporting



Yes

54.6%

421,850



No

45.4%

350,389






Open primary system

Would create a top-two open primary system.
50.3% Reporting





No

66.9%

497,613



Yes

33.1%

246,279

[Mani]

Any update?


The Label one is neck and neck.

[Natural Citizen]

Any update?


The Label one is neck and neck.

51.3 No

48.7 yes

62% reporting

I'm actually happy with this considering the special interest money from out of state that was dumped into the thing.25 million? Phhht. These chemical companiers are crapping bricks. It's a huge win by the people of Oregon even if it doesn't pass just because it's a trend that we see evolving and succeeding at the grassroots level. People have the right to know what they are eating. By disfranchising them it impedes their ability to choose and participate in a genuine free market. What these companies are doing is investing millions to protect themselves from the free market. And that's a fact, jack. Heh...

[ghengis86]

51.3 No

48.7 yes

62% reporting

WTF? What's the basis of the negative position?

[Brett85]

That's good news. Another government mandate voted down.

[Natural Citizen]

WTF? What's the basis of the negative position?

Misinformation campaign from the chemical companies. 25 million dollars worth. It's okay though. Moving forward...

[Mani]

Misinformation campaign from the chemical companies. 25 million dollars worth. It's okay though. Moving forward...


what kind of misinformation? Saying it will hurt the farmers or something?

[Natural Citizen]

what kind of misinformation? Saying it will hurt the farmers or something?

Yep. Same old misinformation. Here you go. It's discussed...

This is from tonight's mid term election coverage. Well...the coverage where the issues and ballot initiatives were actually discussed as opposed to the other legacy/corporate networks where they were just counting numbers. Heh...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMAJChLTnuQ

Whether it passes or fails, the game is going to played from here on out. There is no stopping it. Have faith in that. :)

[mad cow]

Whether it passes or fails, the game is going to played from here on out. There is no stopping it. Have faith in that.

Oh,of that I have no doubt.Statist gonna State.

This law should cost Safeway,WalMart,Costco and such some minuscule less than one% of their profits while at the same time costing Farmer John and his roadside produce stand 85% of his profits and thus driving him out of business.

I'm sure that the big grocery concerns will pour some serious money into this the next time it comes up.
Yay mandatory labeling,enforced at gunpoint!

[PRB]

Misinformation campaign from the chemical companies. 25 million dollars worth. It's okay though. Moving forward...

You want government to force companies to label foods, and you dare accuse another person of misinformation

[oyarde]

You want government to force companies to label foods, and you dare accuse another person of misinformation

I grow , sell , buy food with no label , none needed , potatoes , onions , green beans , eggs etc still in the original package as nature intended :)

[donnay]

You want government to force companies to label foods, and you dare accuse another person of misinformation

It's already being done! Calories, carbohydrates, sodium, ingredients... Doesn't it seem rather odd that they don't want to label about Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs)? If they have nothing to hide what's the problem?

When I buy local, I ask the farmer right up front whether the fruits and vegetables come from organic heirloom seeds. If they stutter, or stagger in anyway with a response, I simply do not buy from them. It's pretty much that simple.

[Deborah K]

It's already being done! Calories, carbohydrates, sodium, ingredients... Doesn't it seem rather odd that they don't want to label about Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs)? If they have nothing to hide what's the problem?

When I buy local, I ask the farmer right up front whether the fruits and vegetables come from organic heirloom seeds. If they stutter, or stagger in anyway with a response, I simply do not buy from them. It's pretty much that simple.

You bet it's already being done!! This godforsaken state I live in just pulled Red Raspberry leaf supplement off the shelf because the producers are now being mandated to add in the labeling that it has trace amounts of led (no more than what's in the dirt we grow our food in, mind you). And so now, the ONE ingredient that was controlling night sweats and hot flashes for me is off the shelf until all the labels are changed. But the bastards won't label GMO food!!!

[Deborah K]

You want government to force companies to label foods, and you dare accuse another person of misinformation

Do you NOT see the inconsistency??? Do you NOT see that the balance is tipped in favor of the multinational corporations like Monsanto???

[Natural Citizen]

This law should cost Safeway,WalMart,Costco and such some minuscule less than one% of their profits while at the same time costing Farmer John and his roadside produce stand 85% of his profits and thus driving him out of business.



Farmers Abandoning GMO Seeds: Non-GMO is more profitable (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444117-Farmers-Abandoning-GMO-Seeds-Non-GMO-is-more-profitable&p=5417595&viewfull=1#post5417595)

[specsaregood]

It's already being done! Calories, carbohydrates, sodium, ingredients... Doesn't it seem rather odd that they don't want to label about Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs)? If they have nothing to hide what's the problem?


Do you really want to go with the "its already being done" argument in order to promote a govt mandate? Might want to think that through...

[Natural Citizen]

You want government to force companies to label foods, and you dare accuse another person of misinformation

Do you understand the concept of a citizens ballot initiative? The people's right to work toward building their own government at the state level? This is much like we see see with marijuana reform. I assure you that I'll waste very little time or energy with misinformation. Do you want to have this debate here? We already have a wealth of debate on it elsewhere around the board. Perhaps best to just bump and continue those. Watcha wanna do? Here or there? I have some time to kill this morning. Well...for a little while anyway.

[Deborah K]

Do you really want to go with the "its already being done" argument in order to promote a govt mandate? Might want to think that through...


Sometimes, in order to win, you have to play their game, and use their rules against them.

[Deborah K]

Do you understand the concept of a citizens initiative? The people's right to work toward building their own government at the state level? This is much like we see see with marijuana reform. I assure you that I'll waste very little time or energy with misinformation. Do you want to have this debate here? We already have a wealth of debate on it elsewhere around the board. Perhaps best to just bump and continue those. Watcha wanna do? Here or there? I have some time to kill this morning. Well...for a little while anyway.

I really don't get the inconsistency with some people - they're all over weed being LEGAL (which results in regulation and taxation of it), but don't want GMO crap to be labeled. :rolleyes:

[Natural Citizen]

I really don't get the inconsistency with some people - they're all over weed being LEGAL (which results in regulation and taxation of it), but don't want GMO crap to be labeled. :rolleyes:

Well. The thing is that the issue is ultimately going to be decided at the geo-political level anyhow. It really is a matter of foreign policy now. (If you find the time maybe check out the "Monsanto In Foreign Policy" thread in the foreign policy sub forum here.) Domestically, the people will ultimately win based upon that alone. But I do agree with you. Really, people just aren't as smart as they like to think they are and so we get more ad-hominem as a retaliatory thing as opposed to actually discussing it like big boys and girls.

You know, I was just thinking about that bill that the Koch network along with Monsanto scribbled up and paid Congressman Pompeo to try to pass through. What that did was void the people's right to ever know what they were eating and it also voided the state's ability to protect it's people from government intrusion. What this essentially did was protect these companies from the free market since people simply wouldn't have a means to choose without labels. Now we didn't hear a peep aboput this mercantilist tyranny from the folks running around yapping about statism. I thought that was funny. Got me to chuckling a bit. There's a thread around here some place about that. I made sure of it.

[specsaregood]

Sometimes, in order to win, you have to play their game, and use their rules against them.

meh, I'd rather argue to remove the labeling mandate, I mean that's the freedom position. But whatever, I have few problems with this being done at the state level, let them reap their own pain.

[angelatc]

Ah, the bitter tears of the anti-science, pro government crowd .... sweeter than aspartame!

[Natural Citizen]

Ah, the bitter tears of the anti-science, pro government crowd .... sweeter than aspartame!

Hey, what's up, sunshine. How you doing these days?

[Deborah K]

Well. The thing is that the issue is ultimately going to be decided at the geo-political level anyhow. It really is a matter of foreign policy now. (If you find the time maybe check out the "Monsanto In Foreign Policy" thread in the foreign policy sub forum here.) Domestically, the people will ultimately win based upon that alone. But I do agree with you. Really, people just aren't as smart as they like to think they are and so we get more ad-hominem as a retaliatory thing as opposed to actually discussing it like big boys and girls.

You know, I was just thinking about that bill that the Koch network along with Monsanto scribbled up and paid congressman pompeo to try to pass through. What that did was void the peoples right to ever know what they were eating and it also voided the state's ability to protect it's people from government intrusion. What this essentially did was protect these companies from the free market since people simply wouldn't have a means to choose without labels. Now we didn't hear a peep aboput this mercantilist tyranny from the folks running around yapping about statism. I thought that was funny. Got me to chuckling a bit. There's a thread around here some place about that. I made sure of it.

Maybe you should find it and post it in here as a gentle reminder of the double-standard being practiced.

[Deborah K]

Ah, the bitter tears of the anti-science, pro government crowd .... sweeter than aspartame!

Don't paint me with that brush, Angie.

[Deborah K]

meh, I'd rather argue to remove the labeling mandate, I mean that's the freedom position. But whatever, I have few problems with this being done at the state level, let them reap their own pain.

When you're going up against the behemoths, you fight with whatever tools are at your disposal.

[angelatc]

You bet it's already being done!! This godforsaken state I live in just pulled Red Raspberry leaf supplement off the shelf because the producers are now being mandated to add in the labeling that it has trace amounts of led.


(no more than what's in the dirt we grow our food in, mind you). And so now, the ONE ingredient that was controlling night sweats and hot flashes for me is off the shelf until all the labels are changed. But the bastards won't label GMO food!!!

There are literally millions of studies that indicate that lead is toxic. Obvious difference is obvious.

But now you want the same people that are pulling your supplement of choice off the shelf to get even more people hysterical over absolutely nothing? Does not compute.

[Natural Citizen]

Maybe you should find it and post it in here as a gentle reminder of the double-standard being practiced.

Meh. What's to be had? Like I said, the issue is at the geo-political level now. Domestically, these companies are going to conform to the reality of this. Mon santo just took almost a 200 million dollar 4th quarter loss and shares dropped significantly. And we're starting to see them begin to sue each other so the in-fighting has begun. Will continue as the issue evolves abroad and other nations restructure. Specifically the competitive non-gmo nations and those reorganizing mechanisms for international finance clearing that align with that.

[donnay]

Do you really want to go with the "its already being done" argument in order to promote a govt mandate? Might want to think that through...

You use their rules so it blows right back at them. It also helps to wake up many more people to the very hypocrisy they spew. After all, isn't it about informing the people?

[donnay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wc_w1p3vEY#t=16

[Deborah K]

There are literally millions of studies that indicate that lead is toxic. Obvious difference is obvious.

But now you want the same people that are pulling your supplement of choice off the shelf to get even more people hysterical over absolutely nothing? Does not compute.

I can pull up a library of scientific evidence that fluoride is poisonous too, and yet it's in water and toothpaste. I'm against the double-standard playing out on these issues. On the one hand, everyone is thrilled that weed is legal, on the other, they freak out because some of us expect some consistency when it comes to labeling wtf is in our food.

[Natural Citizen]

I can pull up a library of scientific evidence that fluoride is poisonous too, and yet it's in water and toothpaste. I'm against the double-standard playing out on these issues. On the one hand, everyone is thrilled that weed is legal, on the other, they freak out because some of us expect some consistency when it comes to labeling wtf is in our food.

Munchies are probably just munchies when yer stoned. Anything edible. You know? Heh...

Seriously, though. It is a quirky bit of a double standard.

[COpatriot]

Failed in Colorado.

[Lucille]

Genetically Modified Organisms Risk Global Ruin, Says Black Swan Author Nassim Taleb
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?462157-Genetically-Modified-Organisms-Risk-Global-Ruin-Says-Black-Swan-Author-Nassim-Taleb


We present a non-naive version of the Precautionary (PP) that allows us to avoid paranoia and paralysis by confining precaution to specific domains and problems. PP is intended to deal with uncertainty and risk in cases where the absence of evidence and the incompleteness of scientific knowledge carries profound implications and in the presence of risks of "black swans", unforeseen and unforeseable events of extreme consequence. We formalize PP, placing it within the statistical and probabilistic structure of ruin problems, in which a system is at risk of total failure, and in place of risk we use a formal fragility based approach. We make a central distinction between 1) thin and fat tails, 2) Local and systemic risks and place PP in the joint Fat Tails and systemic cases. We discuss the implications for GMOs (compared to Nuclear energy) and show that GMOs represent a public risk of global harm (while harm from nuclear energy is comparatively limited and better characterized). PP should be used to prescribe severe limits on GMOs.
[...]
Labeling the GMO approach “scientific" betrays a very poor—indeed warped—understanding of probabilistic payoffs and risk management. A lack of observations of explicit harm does not show absence of hidden risks. ... Given the limited oversight that is taking place on GMO introductions in the US, and the global impact of those introductions, we are precisely in the regime of the ruin problem.

[Natural Citizen]

Failed in Colorado.

Yeah, I don't know how much the chemical companies poured into that initiative from out of state. I assume it was also into the millions. At the moment (at least domestically) we're seeing a very successful information campaign and the issue will absolutely make it's way to Washington. Sooner than later, I think. But it's important to understand that our representatives will soon be forced into a position to demonstrate accountability when providing their platforms with regard to foreign policy and this is a huge factor in that. Economically, we seem content to continue to isolate the U.S. from the rest of the world. Well...at least that's what we're seeing from our elected ones. We like to try to fool ourselves into some fairy tale notion that foreign policy equates to the wars in the middle east and that's it but this is naive to continue to do. And will certainly leave some folks red faced down the road. Just because you won't hear about it from legacy/corporate media in the western nations who are pushing for the TPP doesn't mean that it isn't a huge deal globally. And like I said, that's where the real battle is going to take place with regard to an "agricultural standard". In fact, it's taking place at the moment and has been for some time. Domestically, we're content with an information campaign. That's succeeding for all practical purposes.

[Deborah K]

meh, I'd rather argue to remove the labeling mandate, I mean that's the freedom position. But whatever, I have few problems with this being done at the state level, let them reap their own pain.

Allowing multinational corporations to win by taking the high road may be a "freedom position", but it doesn't result in freedom. Making them play by their own rules, gives us the freedom to choose what products we will and will not buy.

One way or another, they're going down. More and more companies are labeling their products GMO Free (so much for the cost factor excuse), and more and more people are choosing to buy those products.

[donnay]

This symbol, to me, is more important than "Certified Organic".

http://www.nsf.org/images/nsf/non-gmo-project_logo_150x97.jpg

[specsaregood]

Allowing multinational corporations to win by taking the high road may be a "freedom position", but it doesn't result in freedom. Making them play by their own rules, gives us the freedom to choose what products we will and will not buy.

One way or another, they're going down. More and more companies are labeling their products GMO Free (so much for the cost factor excuse), and more and more people are choosing to buy those products.

one way or another some people want to promote govt mandates on speech, and some don't. we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think we make things better by demanding more.

[specsaregood]

This symbol, to me, is more important than "Certified Organic".

http://www.nsf.org/images/nsf/non-gmo-project_logo_150x97.jpg

Me too! And no govt mandate required.

[surf]

Open primary system

Would create a top-two open primary system.
50.3% Reporting






No
66.9% 497,613

Yes
33.1% 246,279

good for Oregon - it looks like they went 3 for 3. a potential trip to Portscum seems less horrible now. particularly happy that they didn't fall for that top-2 bs.

[donnay]

Me too! And no govt mandate required.

For now...I do not recall asking government to jump on board with organics...but government did, and now we have to be concerned about organic ingredients.

I am all for government out of all of this.

[Deborah K]

For now...I do not recall asking government to jump on board with organics...but government did, and now we have to be concerned about organic ingredients.

I am all for government out of all of this.

Same here. But until then, fighting fire with fire may be a necessary evil. Sometimes the end justifies the means.

[donnay]

Same here. But until then, fighting fire with fire may be a necessary evil. Sometimes the end justifies the means.

Indeed. Why people cannot see their blatant hypocrisy is beyond me.

[Natural Citizen]

Heh. $25 million, the out of state chemical companies spent to oppose the citizens of Oregon and their ballot initiative for a right to know what they eat. Look at how close this is. Gosh. Moving forward...

Food labeling
93.7% Reporting



No

50.7%

691,794



Yes

49.3%

672,547

[Jackie Moon]

Maybe I shouldn't admit it because it seems to be unpopular here... but I voted no.

Not because I support GMO food... whether GMO is bad or not is a separate issue from whether the government should be mandating food labels.

I know they already do for certain things, but I'd rather get of that requirement than to add new ones.

Consumer pressure mandates the labeling of calories and stuff now, not government.

If you removed the mandate to have nutrition labels, food manufacturers would still keep them because they wouldn't want to lose the millions of customers that read nutrition labels.


When I buy local, I ask the farmer right up front whether the fruits and vegetables come from organic heirloom seeds. If they stutter, or stagger in anyway with a response, I simply do not buy from them. It's pretty much that simple.


Farmers Abandoning GMO Seeds: Non-GMO is more profitable (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444117-Farmers-Abandoning-GMO-Seeds-Non-GMO-is-more-profitable&p=5417595&viewfull=1#post5417595)


One way or another, they're going down. More and more companies are labeling their products GMO Free (so much for the cost factor excuse), and more and more people are choosing to buy those products.

This is the best way to bring about the change to non-GMO foods.

Convince people that GMO food is bad, and then farmers and food manufacturers will voluntarily increase their GMO-free options.

Look at how many things are voluntarily labeled "gluten free" now to increase sales. Or how when trans fat became unpopular... manufacturers worked quick to remove it and label their stuff "no trans fat".

Organic has become a huge business and now there are organic only stores with organic options for every food.

We don't need the government involved in food, one way or the other. The only place where government would come in is if someone lies on their label. Then you should be able to sue them.

[Natural Citizen]

Heck, if that's how you voted it's how you voted, Jackie Moon. People don't always agree on all of the issues. We're very diverse around here. Is what it is. Good points you make here as well and I think we all understand them as it is.

I'm of the opinion that synergy functions best among diverse people when we're honest with each other. Is why I don't sugar coat my views on any given issues that I choose to become involved with there and about.

[Deborah K]

Maybe I shouldn't admit it because it seems to be unpopular here... but I voted no.

Not because I support GMO food... whether GMO is bad or not is a separate issue from whether the government should be mandating food labels.

I know they already do for certain things, but I'd rather get of that requirement than to add new ones.

Consumer pressure mandates the labeling of calories and stuff now, not government.

If you removed the mandate to have nutrition labels, food manufacturers would still keep them because they wouldn't want to lose the millions of customers that read nutrition labels.







This is the best way to bring about the change to non-GMO foods.

Convince people that GMO food is bad, and then farmers and food manufacturers will voluntarily increase their GMO-free options.

Look at how many things are voluntarily labeled "gluten free" now to increase sales. Or how when trans fat became unpopular... manufacturers worked quick to remove it and label their stuff "no trans fat".

Organic has become a huge business and now there are organic only stores with organic options for every food.

We don't need the government involved in food, one way or the other. The only place where government would come in is if someone lies on their label. Then you should be able to sue them.

If you haven't watched this, please do. It gives the other side of the story. I've already made my view plain in this thread so I won't reiterate here, but please just find the time to learn what Monsanto has done to American Farmers via their GMO patents.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJiIuQyStr4

[donnay]

The problem is our government is stacked with former Monsanto and Biotech Company people.

Which Side Is The Obama Administration On?
http://www.organicconsumers.org/usda_watch.cfm

Obama: GMO Lies and Alliances You Need to Know
http://naturalsociety.com/obama-gmo-lies-alliances/

Obama signs 'Monsanto Protection Act' written by Monsanto-sponsored senator
http://rt.com/usa/monsanto-bill-blunt-agriculture-006/

[Natural Citizen]

The problem is our government is stacked with former Monsanto and Biotech Company people.

Which Side Is The Obama Administration On?
http://www.organicconsumers.org/usda_watch.cfm

Obama: GMO Lies and Alliances You Need to Know
http://naturalsociety.com/obama-gmo-lies-alliances/

Obama signs 'Monsanto Protection Act' written by Monsanto-sponsored senator
http://rt.com/usa/monsanto-bill-blunt-agriculture-006/

Meh. What to do. This is one of those issues where both political parties are lobbied by these companies and so you're up against both.

The statesman was just discussing this very phenomenon over in the other thread... http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?462503-Ron-Paul-US-elections-are-a-one-party-monopoly-(Video)

Both parties will get absolutely hammered on the issue at the international level because it really is a matter of foreign policy now and that's where it will be played out. There is no stopping it. And domestically, If we look at that vote update I just shared a few postings down (or up depending on how we browse the boards) $25 million is barely buying these monopolies a fraction of a percent of the dividing vote. That's how far the people have come at the domestic level. And the freight train just ain't stopping. Really, it's just picking up steam. 2016 is just around the corner.

[r3volution 3.0]

Huzzah!

Yes to marijuana legalization, No to mandatory product labeling.

Two victories for liberty.

[PRB]

Do you NOT see the inconsistency??? Do you NOT see that the balance is tipped in favor of the multinational corporations like Monsanto???

so we should have more laws to hurt big guys?

[PRB]

It's already being done! Calories, carbohydrates, sodium, ingredients... Doesn't it seem rather odd that they don't want to label about Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs)? If they have nothing to hide what's the problem?

When I buy local, I ask the farmer right up front whether the fruits and vegetables come from organic heirloom seeds. If they stutter, or stagger in anyway with a response, I simply do not buy from them. It's pretty much that simple.

I don't want those labels either.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Munchies are probably just munchies when yer stoned. Anything edible. You know? Heh...



I always thought of that as eating something that really munched or crackled. Like pork rinds or fruit loops. I guess it would apply if you ate ice cream, but it loses a little cache. :(

Maybe it would be a matter of amounts. One 3oz. bag of pork rinds would actually be inferior to a eating a ham.

[PRB]

Allowing multinational corporations to win by taking the high road may be a "freedom position", but it doesn't result in freedom. Making them play by their own rules, gives us the freedom to choose what products we will and will not buy.

One way or another, they're going down. More and more companies are labeling their products GMO Free (so much for the cost factor excuse), and more and more people are choosing to buy those products.

yeah, let's use government to result in freedom, it always works.

you never lost your freedom to choose what to buy, where in America are you ever forced to eat or buy anything? PLEASE let me know.

I can't stop people from labeling their products GMO free or kosher, but I don't want my foods being forced to by mandate of law and adding costs to my pocket when something never bothered me.

[Natural Citizen]

I always thought of that as eating something that really munched or crackled. Like pork rinds or fruit loops. I guess it would apply if you ate ice cream, but it loses a little cache. :(

Maybe it would be a matter of amounts. One 3oz. bag of pork rinds would actually be inferior to a eating a ham.

You know, I was sitting next to a guy eating those things at a baseball game one time. It took everything I had not to pick him up and throw him over the rail. He drove me nuts with his crunching. My gosh. It was the worst.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I talk with a good number of farmers in my work. My impression is that most of them really don't like the Monsantos, Pioneers, Syngentas of the world, but they sort of grin and bear it. It's their life. Some are in deep, but a lot have other jobs. A lot of them also don't like some of the intrusive technology. Don't know if I'd describe them as passive, but not sure how I'd describe them.

Anyway, just an observation. Nothing measured or scientific.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You know, I was sitting next to a guy eating those things at a baseball game one time. It took everything I had not to pick him up and throw him over the rail. He drove me nuts with his crunching. My gosh. It was the worst.


Was it like that scene in The Indian Runner where Dennis Hopper gets axed?

[Natural Citizen]

Was it like that scene in The Indian Runner where Dennis Hopper gets axed?

Don't know. I didn't ever see that.

[donnay]

I don't want those labels either.

Interesting...so you would eat rat turds if a box was labeled candy?

[Deborah K]

Huzzah!

Yes to marijuana legalization, No to mandatory product labeling.

Two victories for liberty.

Why are you okay with legalizing weed (which results in the regulation and taxation thereof), but you are not okay with the gov't showing some consistency with labeling in the food industry? Seems like a double-standard.

[Deborah K]

so we should have more laws to hurt big guys?

How does labeling GMO foods hurt them exactly?

[r3volution 3.0]

Why are you okay with legalizing weed (which results in the regulation and taxation thereof)

Because it is an improvement from the complete prohibition thereof.


but you are not okay with the gov't showing some consistency with labeling in the food industry? Seems like a double-standard.

The state has no right to force companies to label their products.

I'm opposed to all existing labeling requirements and to the creation of new ones.

That's perfectly consistent.

[Jackie Moon]

Heck, if that's how you voted it's how you voted, Jackie Moon. People don't always agree on all of the issues. We're very diverse around here. Is what it is. Good points you make here as well and I think we all understand them as it is.

I'm of the opinion that synergy functions best among diverse people when we're honest with each other. Is why I don't sugar coat my views on any given issues that I choose to become involved with there and about.

Ok cool, thank you.

I agree that it's normal and good for us to respectfully disagree on some things.

But I usually stay out of these types of issues because I don't want to be divisive and have us fight with each other when we do agree on so much of the important stuff.

I'd hate for anyone to leave or hold personal grudges over these disagreements. We're still on the same team fighting the real enemies of liberty... and they'd love for us to divide ourselves in to abortion/religion/intellectual property type fights.


If you haven't watched this, please do. It gives the other side of the story. I've already made my view plain in this thread so I won't reiterate here, but please just find the time to learn what Monsanto has done to American Farmers via their GMO patents.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJiIuQyStr4

Thank you, I'll try to watch that when I get a chance.

Just to be clear though... I'm not defending GMO food or Monsanto at all. I think we all have the same goal, I just have a different opinion on how to get there.

[PRB]

How does labeling GMO foods hurt them exactly?

Costs of labeling, I thought your whole point was that we need to hurt the Monsantos to get even with them, did I misunderstand you?

[Natural Citizen]

Recount imminent. Heh...

Food labeling

93.7% Reporting



No

50.7%

691,794



Yes

49.3%

672,547

[PRB]

Interesting...so you would eat rat turds if a box was labeled candy?

I eat what I want, I don't need labels to tell me what's good and bad

[PRB]

I talk with a good number of farmers in my work. My impression is that most of them really don't like the Monsantos, Pioneers, Syngentas of the world, but they sort of grin and bear it. It's their life. Some are in deep, but a lot have other jobs. A lot of them also don't like some of the intrusive technology. Don't know if I'd describe them as passive, but not sure how I'd describe them.

Anyway, just an observation. Nothing measured or scientific.

Intrusive technology? How so?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Don't know. I didn't ever see that.


Skip to 1:40 to see what I was referring to. The whole clip is probably good because it's a very outstanding movie.

Clip is a spoiler, by the way. :D




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Pn6AGcjTc

[Natural Citizen]

Ok cool, thank you.

I agree that it's normal and good for us to respectfully disagree on some things.

But I usually stay out of these types of issues because I don't want to be divisive and have us fight with each other when we do agree on so much of the important stuff.



Divisiveness is really the only phenomenon that stimulates these particular issues into discussion in a place like this. Without it people wouldn't ever know the issue exists. I mean you take a thread like March Against Monsanto. That hasn't been bumped in a while but it contains a wealth of information. Much has been shared there with regard to ballot initiatives that have actually passed as well as others coming up. I think it had around 50 thousand views the last time I looked at it. That happens because disagreement evolves into the flow of information and eventually forward momentum. So you shouldn't ever not speak yer peace. Of course, we prefer intelligent debate. And generally we do have that.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Intrusive...How so?


Kind of like your trolling on this forum. Except without the salivation.

[Natural Citizen]

Skip to 1:40 to see what I was referring to. The whole clip is probably good because it's a very outstanding movie.

Clip is a spoiler, by the way. :D




Heh. Dang. No, it wasn't anything like that. I just felt like tossing him out into right field or something. I don't usually get very mad about anything. He was just an annoying piggy more than anything.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

No, it wasn't anything like that.

I know; I was just kidding. Heh heh. That movie just popped in my head.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

NC, I was at game 6 of a baseball playoff and this couple next to us fell asleep in the 8th. Missed a great catch by the right fielder and a clinch of the pennant. There wasn't any annoying chewing, but they woke up and asked what was going on in the 9th. :-/

Also sat next to these opposing fans in a 16 inning game. They were annoying, so I was glad their team lost.

I sit in the Penguins section when going to a Hurricanes game. Yeah, I am chicken.

[PRB]

Why are you okay with legalizing weed (which results in the regulation and taxation thereof), but you are not okay with the gov't showing some consistency with labeling in the food industry? Seems like a double-standard.

I want government to be consistently pro-liberty, not more laws just to be consistent.

[Natural Citizen]

I want government to be consistently pro-liberty, not more laws just to be consistent.

Do you understand the concept of a citizen initiative? What about government? What does that mean to you? Can you define it, please? If you don't mind. Just so that we better understand each other. If you're looking to debate this ballot initiative, that is.

[Natural Citizen]

Of all of the counties left to report with only 79% and upward counted in these counties, they are voting yes to Prop 92 and have pulled within a ten thousand vote difference and some won't be reporting results until Friday.

Aside - Maui GMO ban passes after 3rd printout (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415565-March-Against-Monsanto-Updates&p=5692929&viewfull=1#post5692929)

Of course, Maui being the home to farms owned by these national companies like Monsanto and a Dow Chemical subsidiary, which produce new varieties of genetically engineered seeds and spend millions of dollars from out of state to try to thwart these citizens initiatives.

Certainly we'll see the effect of this across the nation combined with successful citizens initiatives that have previously come to pass in the U.S. as we continue to move forward.

[Natural Citizen]

Update: 4 counties remaining and 94.0% of est. votes counted state-wide. Final counts will be out on Friday for a couple of these counties. Lane county at 5pm on Friday. Not sure exactly on the others. Of course, regardless of what we're actually seeing happen here, the media is reporting that it failed but we know how they do. Right? Heh...

Anyhoo. Paper ballots only in Oregon, kiddies. :)


Ready? Lets go...

Yes


682,104

49.6%



No


693,070

50.4%




Counties remaining...

Multnomah County - 83.3% Reporting

Yes - 61.7% 158,936
No - 38.3% 98,778

Clackamas County - 79.8% Reporting

No - 53.5% - 69,717
Yes - 46.5% 60,525

Benton County - 91.7% Reporting

Yes - 52.1% 19,431
No - 47.9% 17,862

Lane County - 92.6% Reporting

Yes - 57.3% 78,073
No - 42.7% 58,146

[2young2vote]

Any amount of regulation on businesses is bad regulation, for any reason, for any product, for any amount of time.

[donnay]

How Monsanto Keeps Halting GMO Labeling Despite Over 96% Approval
Monsanto's dirty tricks explained


by Anthony Gucciardi | Infowars.com | November 6, 2014


From the New York Times to Reuters and the Washington Post, all of the major publications agree: the general public is in full support of GMO labeling initiatives. Quite simply, they want to know what they’re giving to both themselves and their family. Time and time again, we see poll results demonstrating that more than 90% of the US population is in favor of GMO labeling. Yet time and time again, we see GMO labeling initiatives shot down across the country.

Are all of the major polling organizations in the country simply using incorrect statistical algorithms? Obviously, the answer instead lies in the dirty tricks (and even the mainstream media is now calling them out as such) used by mega biotech companies like Monsanto. In tandem with corporate food producers, these tricks are used to shove disinformation into the minds of voters who otherwise would fully support the concept of GMO labeling.

Specifically, we’re talking about pro-GMO lobby groups faking quotes from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) that ‘support GMOs’ in the face of labeling initiatives, and even groups falsely claiming that Stanford is on the side of Monsanto amid the labeling debate (when they aren’t and haven’t even commented on the issue).

But before we get into these dirty guerrilla tactics and their use in the informational war over GMOs, let’s really look at the truly overwhelming support for GMO labeling in this country based upon the estimates of major polling groups.

The New York Times: 93% found to be in support of labeling GMOs

MSNBC: 96% in support

Reuters/NPR: 93% in support of full labeling

Washington Post: 95% in support of full labeling

Consumer Reports: 95% agree GM animals should be labeled

ABC News: 93% want federal GM labeling mandate

So with these stats being reported virtually unanimously, what could Monsanto possibly be doing to sway voters outside of blatantly manipulating the actual polling results? As it turns out, and as we wrote about back in 2012, Monsanto has actually been caught not only misusing an FDA logo — but blatantly fabricating an FDA quote in order to suppress California’s notorious Prop 37 GMO labeling bill. From the report back in November of 2012:

http://cdn.naturalsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/fda-monsanto-prop-37.png

“Misuse of a United States government seal can lead to a $250,000 fine, twenty years in prison, and three years of supervised release — unless you’re a campaign organization funded by major corporations like Monsanto. In a move completely ignored by the mainstream media (many of which have financial ties to such corporations), the anti-GMO labeling No on 37 Committee paid for and disseminated a physical piece of direct mail that not only entirely misused the FDA logo but even sported a fabricated quote.

A quote that even the FDA has stated on record that was never stated. That is because it would actually be illegal to do so. You see federal agencies cannot take a stance on Proposition 37, which means that the Monsanto-funded No on 37 campaign literally created the quote and FDA support out of thin air. In other words, the organization leaders blatantly violated 8 U.S.C. §§ 506 and 1017 by misusing the FDA seal and writing a quote out of thin air to support their political campaign to keep Monsanto rolling in the billions.”

Continued... (http://www.infowars.com/how-monsanto-keeps-halting-gmo-labeling-despite-over-96-approval/)

[donnay]

GMO-labeling announced as defeated despite uncounted votes in counties favoring the measure
Wednesday, November 05, 2014 by: Julie Wilson staff writer

While some publications are reporting the death of Oregon's Measure 92, an initiative that would require the labeling of genetically modified organisms (GMOs), the truth is that the race is still too close to call.

Vigilant reporting by The Oregonian reveals that, with 88 percent of the votes counted, the measure is trailing 49 to 51 percent; however, most of the votes yet to be counted are in Multnomah County, a region where 62 percent of the population favors GMO labeling.

Urban counties such as Multnomah, Lane, Benton and Jackson showed the most support for GMO labeling, while voters in rural areas were more opposed.

Announcing the measure's defeat before counting all the votes, especially in a race this close, is far too reminiscent of what happened in 2012 with California's Prop 37. Prop 37 was announced as being defeated by 6 percentage points, 53 to 47 percent, when more than 3 million votes were still left uncounted.

The alleged defeat seemed suspicious, especially with earlier polls showing an overwhelming support for the initiative, including 9 out 10 Californians supporting GMO labeling. Despite its defeat, the measure drew mass awareness that helped open the door for other states like Oregon to pass similar measures.

The passing of Measure 92 would make Oregon the first state to enact a voter-approved GMO-labeling law

The campaign surrounding Oregon's Measure 92 broke state records, as it was the most costly initiative on the ballot, blowing previous proposals out of the water in terms of spending. More than $20 million was funneled into the battle over GMO labeling, with the biotech industry dumping around $12 million into Oregon's initiative.

GMO-labeling proponents donated an estimated $8 million to the Yes on 92 campaign, arguing that the public has a right to know whether or not their food contains genetically modified ingredients.

While the Vermont legislature passed a GMO-labeling law last spring (which they are now being sued for), Oregon would be the first state to enact a similar law, except this one would be voter-approved.

Continued... (http://www.naturalnews.com/047533_GMO_labeling_uncounted_votes_Oregon.html)

[Natural Citizen]

I think it's going to pass, Donnay. Will see. Of course, if it doesn't then it doesn't. But we don't cry loss when others are so naive to cry victory. Heh. As if we've finished and the issue just up and poofed itself away. It is a hoot, though, what you share here. You know, I've said before, and it's often toward young folks, that we need to stop with this meme of seeing just what is in front of us. We have to see beyond. They don't do that. Well...you have to actually look to see.Right? The fly by political so called "activists, I'm talking about here. And so, of course, the legacy/corporate media folks are going to pick up on these shortcomings and tell them, "Okay...it's over...you can go home now". I mean, if you look through this thread alone with all of the "huzzahs" and the "Oh...mkay...it's over...we're done now" that we see elsewhere. That kind of thing. I do often wonder if the next generation has the drive or focus that is required to not only finish the game but to actually view it. To see it or understand the depth of the issues in scope and to maintain a vision of what it takes to not just say victory but to actually achieve it. It's the only way you play it right is if we play it completely. You know? It just is what it is, I suppose. I mean we just seem to like to scream victory and, well...you know...the game is a long one. Lifetimes even.

Hey, what did you think about the outright GMO ban in Maui. That's a big deal there. That's where these companies spending these millions to disrupt these citizens initiatives had set up experimental shop. Maui GMO ban passes after 3rd printout (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415565-March-Against-Monsanto-Updates&p=5692929&viewfull=1#post5692929)

[Deborah K]

Any amount of regulation on businesses is bad regulation, for any reason, for any product, for any amount of time.

Does this apply to legalizing weed? Because you do know, that its legalization necessarily means regulation and taxation. There is a clear double standard with this argument.

The train has already left the station with regard to regulation of businesses. And multi-nats are in bed with the gov't making sure the laws favor them. When you have this kind of situation to deal with, it requires several approaches. Yes, one is for businesses who don't use GMO products to voluntarily list it on their products so that people do in fact, have the freedom to choose based on information. But another viable approach is to push for consistency in labeling, and expose the hypocrisy and the dirty dealings between multi-nats and gov't. I used the example earlier in the thread of a supplement I use that has been pulled because the gov't wants the supplement labeling changed. Well, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. If they're going to insist on labeling for some, and not others, then it needs to be exposed and changed. I see nothing wrong with demanding consistency.

And I realize that sometimes you have to play by their rules in order to beat them at their own game.

[donnay]

I think it's going to pass, Donnay. Will see. Of course, if it doesn't then it doesn't. But we don't cry loss when others are so naive to cry victory. Heh. As if we've finished and the issue just up and poofed itself away. It is a hoot, though, what you share here. You know, I've said before, and it's often toward young folks, that we need to stop with this meme of seeing just what is in front of us. We have to see beyond. They don't do that. Well...you have to actually look to see.Right? The fly by political so called "activists, I'm talking about here. And so, of course, the legacy/corporate media folks are going to pick up on these shortcomings and tell them, "Okay...it's over...you can go home now". I mean, if you look through this thread alone with all of the "huzzahs" and the "Oh...mkay...it's over...we're done now" that we see elsewhere. That kind of thing. I do often wonder if the next generation has the drive or focus that is required to not only finish the game but to actually view it. To see it or understand the depth of the issues in scope and to maintain a vision of what it takes to not just say victory but to actually achieve it. It's the only way you play it right is if we play it completely. You know? It just is what it is, I suppose. I mean we just seem to like to scream victory and, well...you know...the game is a long one. Lifetimes even.

Hey, what did you think about the outright GMO ban in Maui. That's a big deal there. That's where these companies spending these millions to disrupt these citizens initiatives had set up experimental shop. Maui GMO ban passes after 3rd printout (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415565-March-Against-Monsanto-Updates&p=5692929&viewfull=1#post5692929)

I glad the people of Maui are standing their ground. God Bless them. It also shines a light on Monsanto. You know what happens when you shine lights on cockroaches, right?

[Natural Citizen]

Updated: 8:01 am, Nov 6

95% of est. votes counted


Yes


712,508

49.7%



No


722,278

50.3%




Remaining counties left to be tallied at the moment...

Multnomah County
88.4% Reporting
Yes - 62.2% 169,665
No - 37.8% 103,277

Lane County
92.6% Reporting
Yes = 57.3% 78,073
No - 42.7% 58,146

Benton County
91.7% Reporting
Yes - 52.1% 19,431
No - 47.9% 17,862

Clackamas County
79.8% Reporting
No - 53.5% 69,717
Yes - 46.5% 60,525

[donnay]

Pro-GMO Campaign Spends $37M, Defeats Labeling in Oregon, Colorado

Melissa Melton
Ready Nutrition

http://readynutrition.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/justfood.jpg

Much of what went down last night in the 2014 midterm elections was predictable. What wasn’t so predictable was the defeat of GMO labeling laws in Oregon and Colorado.

Combined, GMO labeling opposition groups (and the mega corporations behind them who stand to potentially lose revenue over labels) spent a whopping $37 million in propaganda campaigns to defeat the labeling initiatives — $17 million in Colorado and $20 million in Oregon.

While $37 million seems like a lot of money, for the Big Ag companies involved here, it’s a pittance.

By glaring contrast, pro-labeling campaigns in both states raised a combined total of just $7.9 million ($7 million of that in Oregon alone).

Still, the vote in Oregon came close. Awfully close. It was super slim margin of 49.53% yes to 50.47% no, with less than 13,000 votes statewide between the two. If I lived in Oregon, realizing what a vested interest these companies had in defeating the measure and how many millions they spend in propaganda to do so, I would be screaming for a recount today.

Genetically modified foods (aka genetically modified organisms or GMOs) continue to be a source of controversy across America, as more and more people get informed on what GMOs are and exactly why they might not necessarily want to be consuming them. The majority of GMOs are scientifically engineered by biotech companies like Monsanto and Dow AgroSciences to produce their own pesticides.

When you eat it, you therefore eat a crop that produces its own pesticide.

The arguments over whether or not these foods are truly safe to consume long-term goes back and forth. When these foods were initially approved, zero long-term studies had been completed. You could say everyone consuming these foods right now is part of a long-term study, the only one that has ever been done and it’s still ongoing. Some science — bought-and-paid for by the very biotech corporations the science would serve — says eating these genetically engineered foods is fine. Since our government essentially allows these corporations to regulate themselves, many people have turned to independent studies for answers, and those answers don’t look so good health-wise.

According to the Institute for Responsible Technology (http://www.responsibletechnology.org/health-risks), “GM foods can create unpredictable, hard-to-detect side effects, including allergies, toxins, new diseases, and nutritional problems. They urged long-term safety studies, but were ignored.” GM food’s potential ties to serious health risks, including a rise in infertility, auto-immune disorders, diseases, allergies, cancer and major gastrointestinal issues have also been ignored.

Truly though, it shouldn’t even be a question of getting to this level of the debate because ultimately, people should be allowed to know what they are eating when they buy something. Period.

It doesn’t matter if the ingredient is a magical vitamin that cures every disease known to man and is so good for everyone that everyone should be eating it every chance they get.

If it’s in the food, the people consuming said food have a right to know it’s in there and a right to decide — with full disclosure at their fingertips — whether or not they want to put it in their mouths.

The problem is, unlike 64 other countries around the world (http://justlabelit.org/right-to-know/labeling-around-the-world/), as Americans we don’t really have any basic labeling protections in this country. Food manufacturers are not federally mandated to label a food package telling people what’s inside contains genetically modified organisms.

At this point, the USDA estimates at least 70% of the food sold in U.S. grocery stores contains genetically modified ingredients and because there are no labels, the majority of people who haven’t done their homework likely have no idea they are eating this stuff.

Polls show that a whopping 92% of Americans who are informed actually do want to know if GMOs are in their food. Over 1.3 million people in this country have contacted the U.S. Food and Drug Administration about it, but considering the FDA’s Deputy Commissioner for Foods is Michael Taylor — a former lobbyist, lawyer and Vice President for Public Policy for biotech giant Monsanto — those voices are falling on (bought off) deaf ears.

So, if we live in a democratic republic and GMO labeling has such a high level of support nationwide, why exactly do all these GMO labeling initiatives continue to get defeated at the polls?

Look no further than crony capitalism and the mega corporate money.

Continued... (http://readynutrition.com/resources/pro-gmo-campaign-spends-37m-defeats-labeling-in-oregon-colorado_05112014/)

[invisible]

I plugged the numbers given in post #84 into a spreadsheet to project the final results. For each remaining county, I divided the number of yes and no votes by % reporting, to come up with projected yes and no votes. Then I totaled the projection for each county, and added those to the votes counted so far. Here's what I come up with:

additional projected votes in each county:

Multnomah
yes - 22264
no- 13552

Lane
yes - 6239
no- 4647

Benton
yes - 1759
no - 1617

Clackamas
yes - 15321
no - 17648

total projected totals of already counted votes plus new votes:
yes - 759090 = 49.95%
no - 759741 = 50.05%

The each of the above numbers were all rounded here (.74 of a vote became 1 vote), but I did not round them in the spreadsheet. So if any of you check my math, and something is off by a vote here and there, it's a rounding error. This is going to be EXTREMELY close, so close that even if the results are projected from the percentages holding in each county, it's too close to call. Notice that my projections only differ by 51 votes! I predict that this will go to a recount, lawsuits, etc and will not actually be settled one way or the other for some time to come.

[Natural Citizen]

You know, I'm just really glad to see that these out of state companies are beginning to realize that throwing $25 million into a campaign against a citizen initiative isn't always going to work.

[Lucille]

Taleb is optimistic.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152585947568375&id=13012333374


SOCIAL NETWORKS AS DISINFECTANT: THE FRAGILITY OF FRAUDULENT SCHEMES

A Ponzi scheme increases in fragility over time; it requires more and more new funds to keep it going, so it collapses when one eventually runs out of suckers.*

Now it looks like it is a universal property of fraudulent schemes: you need more and more PR, lobbyists, shills, and repetitions of the narratives to keep the story going, particularly in the age of the internet. This is what I am observing with my current fraud-busting projects, with the Saudi-Wahabi government (funded intolerant version of the religion), GMOs (maquerade of "science" and "evidence"), the economics/macrobullshit establishment, the "education" bubble (student loans helping real-estate developers), etc. You can see it particularly with GMOs as all the lobbying efforts can evaporate in the face of a single probabilistic argument; tens of thousands of comments do not measure up to a single derivation.
---
*A Ponzi scheme is one by which one finds new investors to pay off old investors: think Madoff or many heavily endebted governments.

[PRB]

Do you understand the concept of a citizen initiative? What about government? What does that mean to you? Can you define it, please? If you don't mind. Just so that we better understand each other. If you're looking to debate this ballot initiative, that is.

Government is force. I prefer never to use force unless necessary. This is a perfect example of people free to not buy any products, only buy from people they trust and nobody needs to be forced to label anything.

[PRB]

Pro-GMO Campaign Spends $37M, Defeats Labeling in Oregon, Colorado


How rich do I have to be to be wrong? How much money does Ron & Rand have to spend for them to be demonized like you're doing now?

Oh, you mean to tell me whether they are evil an wrong has nothing to do with what they spend?

[PRB]

GMO-labeling announced as defeated despite uncounted votes in counties favoring the measure


Losers always cry conspiracy.

When Republicans win, it's because somebody rigged machines and lied to minorities about voting dates, and forced people to show ID.
When Democrats win, somebody wasn't born in the country or stolen a nomination or communists paid off a Super PAC.

[donnay]

Government is force. I prefer never to use force unless necessary. This is a perfect example of people free to not buy any products, only buy from people they trust and nobody needs to be forced to label anything.

Ha! Ha! That is admirable of you--so I guess you never go grocery store shopping? The problem is you have NO IDEA if the food you are eating is GMO or not. If you want to sell food, you need to let the people, you want to buy it, to be informed.

[donnay]

Losers always cry conspiracy.

When Republicans win, it's because somebody rigged machines and lied to minorities about voting dates, and forced people to show ID.
When Democrats win, somebody wasn't born in the country or stolen a nomination or communists paid off a Super PAC.

What do you make of food companies that have no problem putting labels on their food packages with regards to sporting events (i.e.; Super Bowl) but cannot put on that very same package whether or not the corn chips contain GM corn?

Conspiracy? Yeah, I think so, but I am not crying by any stretch of the imagination.

[Natural Citizen]

I plugged the numbers given in post #84 into a spreadsheet to project the final results. For each remaining county, I divided the number of yes and no votes by % reporting, to come up with projected yes and no votes. Then I totaled the projection for each county, and added those to the votes counted so far. Here's what I come up with:

additional projected votes in each county:

Multnomah
yes - 22264
no- 13552

Lane
yes - 6239
no- 4647

Benton
yes - 1759
no - 1617

Clackamas
yes - 15321
no - 17648

total projected totals of already counted votes plus new votes:
yes - 759090 = 49.95%
no - 759741 = 50.05%

The each of the above numbers were all rounded here (.74 of a vote became 1 vote), but I did not round them in the spreadsheet. So if any of you check my math, and something is off by a vote here and there, it's a rounding error. This is going to be EXTREMELY close, so close that even if the results are projected from the percentages holding in each county, it's too close to call. Notice that my projections only differ by 51 votes! I predict that this will go to a recount, lawsuits, etc and will not actually be settled one way or the other for some time to come.

I'm thinking it passes by a little over a thousand votes. Doesn't mean I'm correct. Is just what I'm thinking. Multnomah county, I think, will do it.

But, you know, tomorrow is another day. And so we keep on keeping on. The results thus far here with regard to this citizens initiative while up against these out of state companies is a very good indicator of the model we're seeing nation-wide as people become active in the issues that they care about. Is, I think, refreshing when we see folks begin to count the issues as opposed to the number of status quo being elected to office during these mid-terms. Will need more of this going into 2016 because changing the course of history, I think, is far more practical than just trying to hurry up and get elected where, really, nothing will change save the transfer of political power.

[invisible]

For those arguing against gov't forcing food retailers or producers to label their products accurately, what if I was to sell you a turd, nicely wrapped up and packaged and marked as "fudge"? When you found out what it really was, wouldn't you feel like I had defrauded you, or falsely advertised my product? A tomato does not contain frog genes. If you sell me a vegetable that has frog genes in it, and advertise and market it as anything but a vegetable that contains frog genes, you have falsely advertised your product, and defrauded me. Isn't preventing and prosecuting fraud a legitimate function of gov't? If none of you think so, I'd be more than glad to sell you some "fudge".

[PRB]

Ha! Ha! That is admirable of you--so I guess you never go grocery store shopping? The problem is you have NO IDEA if the food you are eating is GMO or not. If you want to sell food, you need to let the people, you want to buy it, to be informed.

I do go grocery shopping, but I am not forced to.

You seem to assume I care whether it's GMO.

So much for buyer beware or personal responsibility.

[PRB]

What do you make of food companies that have no problem putting labels on their food packages with regards to sporting events (i.e.; Super Bowl) but cannot put on that very same package whether or not the corn chips contain GM corn?

Conspiracy? Yeah, I think so, but I am not crying by any stretch of the imagination.

I am against food companies being forced to label anything at all. Get it?!

[r3volution 3.0]

For those arguing against gov't forcing food retailers or producers to label their products accurately, what if I was to sell you a turd, nicely wrapped up and packaged and marked as "fudge"? When you found out what it really was, wouldn't you feel like I had defrauded you, or falsely advertised my product? A tomato does not contain frog genes. If you sell me a vegetable that has frog genes in it, and advertise and market it as anything but a vegetable that contains frog genes, you have falsely advertised your product, and defrauded me. Isn't preventing and prosecuting fraud a legitimate function of gov't? If none of you think so, I'd be more than glad to sell you some "fudge".

I disagree with you about the definition of a tomato. To me a tomato food item with a certain appearance, flavor, texture, etc - whatever its genetics.

Consequently, a GMO tomato is a tomato, and calling it such is not fraudulent advertizing.

But, as you can see, this is highly subjective. It depends on how different people understand different words. Generally speaking, the law considers the "normal" definition to be the decisive one. For example, if you're the only person in the world who thinks a GMO tomato isn't a tomato, there's been no fraud - because the producer is advertizing to the general population, not just you. If, on the other hand, everybody in the world but the producer considers a GMO tomato to not be a real tomato, then it would be fraud.

In any case, whether there is fraud or not, the proper way of curbing it is to file a lawsuit - not to impose new business regulations.

[invisible]

I do go grocery shopping, but I am not forced to.

You seem to assume I care whether it's GMO.

So much for buyer beware or personal responsibility.

If you don't care whether the food you buy is accurately labeled or not, would you like to buy some "fudge" from me? I'd be glad to give you a really great price!

[donnay]

I am against food companies being forced to label anything at all. Get it?!

Then they shouldn't sell food! Get it?!

[PRB]

Then they shouldn't sell food! Get it?!

you don't believe in the freedom to sell food without labeling? you want Amish to label their raw milk too? WTF!

[PRB]

If you don't care whether the food you buy is accurately labeled or not, would you like to buy some "fudge" from me? I'd be glad to give you a really great price!

you have to eat it first, then I'll think about it.

[invisible]

For example, if you're the only person in the world who thinks a GMO tomato isn't a tomato, there's been no fraud - because the producer is advertizing to the general population, not just you. If, on the other hand, everybody in the world but the producer considers a GMO tomato to not be a real tomato, then it would be fraud.

Exactly! And 90+ percentage of the population agrees that a tomato with frog genes in it is not a tomato! Would you like to buy some "fudge"?

[Natural Citizen]

I disagree with you about the definition of a tomato. To me a tomato food item with a certain appearance, flavor, texture, etc - whatever its genetics.

Consequently, a GMO tomato is a tomato, and calling it such is not fraudulent advertizing.

But, as you can see, this is highly subjective. It depends on how different people understand different words. Generally speaking, the law considers the "normal" definition to be the decisive one. For example, if you're the only person in the world who thinks a GMO tomato isn't a tomato, there's been no fraud - because the producer is advertizing to the general population, not just you. If, on the other hand, everybody in the world but the producer considers a GMO tomato to not be a real tomato, then it would be fraud.

In any case, whether there is fraud or not, the proper way of curbing it is to file a lawsuit - not to impose new business regulations.


Substantial equivalence has long since flown right out of the window when it came to protecting licensing and usage fees for these products under patent law. Of course, this is something that we've discussed in great depth elsewhere and so really has no function with regard to this citizens initiative. Perhaps we can bump that discussion. I'll look it up later. In fact, I had flirted with doing that anyhow in light of Monsanto's recent mercantilist response to the gmo ban that passed elsewhere in the nation yesterday. Seems like they're having a tantrum because it just happened to be the place they were using as their home turf for genetic experimentation since the weather was always good there. Which, btw, could be said to be comparable to the logistics of the TPP except at the domestic level.

I fully expect these companies to attempt to sue away the sovereignty of these American people there in Maui if they feel like their laws will disrupt future profits for said companies. Again, conforming to the international legal model that some of our representatives want to speed through in the form of the TPP. Interesting times, for sure.

[r3volution 3.0]

Exactly! And 90+ percentage of the population agrees that a tomato with frog genes in it is not a tomato!

Evidence?

But, as I already said, even supposing that's the case, that does not justify mandatory labeling.

It justifies lawsuits.

[invisible]

Evidence?

But, as I already said, even supposing that's the case, that does not justify mandatory labeling.

It justifies lawsuits.

Evidence is polls cited in post #79. What do you think a successful lawsuit would result in? Mandatory labeling! What would the difference be if it came about through a gov't ballot initiative, or a gov't court?
Would you like to buy some "fudge"? I'd be glad to give you a really good price!

[Natural Citizen]

Evidence?

But, as I already said, even supposing that's the case, that does not justify mandatory labeling.

It justifies lawsuits.

Well. As I said, I'll bump existing discussion on that. To start a debate here on it, I think, is counterintuitive. You could probably do a forum search for "Substantial equivalence" in the meantime. At the moment I'm kind of watching other things and really just swapping windows once in a while to the forum here. But, as I said, I will bump discussion on that just because I'm going to contribute more to it anyhow. There really is a wealth of information and discussion here at RPF and my advice to any new member would be for them to spend time researching the key words that interest them. Although the stuff that gets added to the front "Top News" page doesn't ever seem to be returned in search results. Which I find to be scwewy but it is what it is. You'd think that wouldn't be the case since those things are usually reflective of the more critical updates to the most current events with regard to the issues that they involve.

In fact, I'm going to try to finagle a couple of different threads just because of what we are seeing with regard to these chemical companies beginning to sue each other. That's a relevant phenomenon but more in line with the geo-political aspect of it. Getting into foreign policy here and a so called "agricultural standard" so to speak. You could probably reasearch that too. Just key in "agricultural standard" and "international finance clearing" into the search bar here at the forum. Also "BRICS".

[r3volution 3.0]

Evidence is polls cited in post #79. What do you think a successful lawsuit would result in? Mandatory labeling!

No, it would result in damages paid to he defrauded plaintiff.

That's the difference between the two methods.

In the one case, the producer is only punished when he is proven to have actually defrauded someone.

In the other case, the producer is punished because someone predicts that he might defraud someone.

By way of analogy, what is the proper way to deal with industrial pollution? Regulations designed to prevent pollution, enforced by federal regulators who visit and inspect the facilities? Or lawsuits against those corporations which actually pollute?

[donnay]

you don't believe in the freedom to sell food without labeling? you want Amish to label their raw milk too? WTF!


The Amish do label their stuff they sell. As a matter of fact I deal with a few Amish and Mennonite retailers.

[PRB]

Exactly! And 90+ percentage of the population agrees that a tomato with frog genes in it is not a tomato! Would you like to buy some "fudge"?

yeah, let's ask the masses what a tomato is.

[PRB]

The Amish do label their stuff they sell. As a matter of fact I deal with a few Amish and Mennonite retailers.

are they forced to? do you want them to be forced to?

[donnay]

are they forced to? do you want them to be forced to?


If they want to sell it to the public they label it. We are all forced to comply to government regulations--except biotech companies. If you want to sell anything to the public you have to get the permits to do so and follow their regulations or you can be fined and imprisoned--except biotech companies.

There are diabetics out there. There are children who are allergic to peanuts. There are people who are lactose intolerant. How will they know, if the things they choose to eat are not labeled how will they know it will not trigger a very bad reaction and/or possible cause death?


Here is the Monsanto-Federal revolving door-- take a look at the names and tell me there is no conflicts of interests:

http://naturalsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/monsantogovernment.jpg

[Peace Piper]

Costs of labeling, I thought your whole point was that we need to hurt the Monsantos to get even with them, did I misunderstand you?

Seems the cost argument is absurd when looking around the rest of the world

The 64 Countries that Require GMO Labeling

Australia
Austria
Belarus
Belgium
Bolivia
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Brazil
Bulgaria
Cameroon
China
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Ecuador
El Salvador
Estonia
Ethiopia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malaysia
Mali
Malta
Mauritius
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Peru
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Africa
South Korea
Spain
Sri Lanka
Sweden
Switzerland
Taiwan
Thailand
Tunisia
Turkey
Ukraine
United Kingdom
Vietnam

http://s29.postimg.org/s1z00q9qf/labelinglawsmapapril2013_38786.jpg
The GE Food labeling Law map shows the laws in more than sixty countries
regarding genetically engineered food labeling.

Hard to believe that the people in Tunisia, for example, are more educated about their food than in the US. A disgrace actually. A total disgrace.

http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/reports/1413/genetically-engineered-food-labeling-laws-map#

http://naturalsociety.com/64-countries-require-gmo-labeling-not-united-states/


Related: China pulls plug on genetically modified rice and corn

China’s Ministry of Agriculture has decided not to renew biosafety certificates that allowed research groups to grow genetically modified (GM) rice and corn. The permits, to grow two varieties of GM rice and one transgenic corn strain, expired on 17 August. The reasoning behind the move is not clear, and it has raised questions about the future of related research in China...

...China has nearly reached self-sufficiency in producing rice using conventional varieties, so the ministry has decided there is no need to commercialize Bt rice in the near future, says Huang Jikun, director of the Chinese Academy of Sciences' Center for Chinese Agricultural Policy. He says that with commercialization off the table, there was no point in renewing the certifications. Huang says "rising public concerns safety of GM rice" likely also played a role...

http://news.sciencemag.org/asiapacific/2014/08/china-pulls-plug-genetically-modified-rice-and-corn

[parocks]

I did the same math, and scrolled down and saw someone did a better job of it.



Updated: 8:01 am, Nov 6

95% of est. votes counted


Yes


712,508

49.7%



No


722,278

50.3%




Remaining counties left to be tallied at the moment...

Multnomah County
88.4% Reporting
Yes - 62.2% 169,665
No - 37.8% 103,277

Lane County
92.6% Reporting
Yes = 57.3% 78,073
No - 42.7% 58,146

Benton County
91.7% Reporting
Yes - 52.1% 19,431
No - 47.9% 17,862

Clackamas County
79.8% Reporting
No - 53.5% 69,717
Yes - 46.5% 60,525

A math problem. Let's assume that each of the precincts are the same in each of the counties. Not true, but let's go with it.

Yes needs 10K votes.

What is likely to happen in those counties?

Well, Multnomah County - yes by 66K. More than 10 percent left. So, let's say 7K extra yes margin out of Multnomah.

Lane looks like 1.5K yes.

Benton is about 100 yes.

Clackmas is about 2K no.

So, if everything is the same, no by about 3K. But everything isn't the same. Not all precincts are the same size and not all precincts in a county vote the same.

It most likely will get closer.

[parocks]

You know, I'm just really glad to see that these out of state companies are beginning to realize that throwing $25 million into a campaign against a citizen initiative isn't always going to work.

Where's that $25 Million going? TV stations? TV stations should work to get anti-GMO measures on the ballot, because they know that the GMOers will give them a lot of money to defeat it.

[green73]

Do you understand the concept of a citizens ballot initiative? The people's right to work toward building their own government at the state level? This is much like we see see with marijuana reform. I assure you that I'll waste very little time or energy with misinformation. Do you want to have this debate here? We already have a wealth of debate on it elsewhere around the board. Perhaps best to just bump and continue those. Watcha wanna do? Here or there? I have some time to kill this morning. Well...for a little while anyway.

The only libertarian thing you GMO people should be fighting for is allowing non-GMO producers to be able to label their food as such, something currently illegal. Why is that not the focus of your fight? I'll tell you why...infiltration.

[Natural Citizen]

I did the same math, and scrolled down and saw someone did a better job of it.




A math problem. Let's assume that each of the precincts are the same in each of the counties. Not true, but let's go with it.

Yes needs 10K votes.

What is likely to happen in those counties?

Well, Multnomah County - yes by 66K. More than 10 percent left. So, let's say 7K extra yes margin out of Multnomah.

Lane looks like 1.5K yes.

Benton is about 100 yes.

Clackmas is about 2K no.

So, if everything is the same, no by about 3K. But everything isn't the same. Not all precincts are the same size and not all precincts in a county vote the same.

It most likely will get closer.

Yeah, it's a hoot. Heh. We'll know tomorrow around 5pm though, for sure. It's guess work at the moment.

[Natural Citizen]

The only libertarian thing you GMO people should be fighting for is allowing non-GMO producers to be able to label their food as such, something currently illegal. Why is that not the focus of your fight? I'll tell you why...infiltration.

Infiltration of what, green73?

That's an interesting and rather broad subject, "infiltration", and could certainly be discussed in context of the movement in large. I'd certainly be interested in your thoughts on that while we're waiting for those results since you brought it up. Probably not going to have anything to add to this thread until those results come out tomorrow evening anyhow.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...what if I was to sell you a turd, nicely wrapped up and packaged and marked as "fudge"? ... I'd be more than glad to sell you some "fudge".


Does it come with "lemonade?"

[Anti Federalist]

I do go grocery shopping, but I am not forced to.

You seem to assume I care whether it's GMO.

So much for buyer beware or personal responsibility.

How can you beware or be resposible, if you have no idea what you are buying?

[specsaregood]

The only libertarian thing you GMO people should be fighting for is allowing non-GMO producers to be able to label their food as such, something currently illegal. Why is that not the focus of your fight? I'll tell you why...infiltration.

I've been hearing that for years, and yet everytime I go to the store I find more and more products labeled non-gmo.

[parocks]

Yeah, it's a hoot. Heh. We'll know tomorrow around 5pm though, for sure. It's guess work at the moment.

You have a link to precinct by precinct results in Multnomah? Plus maybe one from 2010?


New Numbers from Multnomah

State Measure 92
Vote for 1
Yes . . . . . . . . . . . . 177,830 62.40
No. . . . . . . . . . . . . 107,150 37.60

These new numbers do not help as much as expected. the margin goes from 66K to 70K, a gain of 4K, but not the 7K or 10K as expected.

New Clackmas
YES 0 0.00% 70,351 46.76% 70,351 46.76%
NO 0 0.00% 80,102 53.24% 80,102 53.24%

This is about 500 more nos. Not as bad as predicted which was 2K. 10000 + 500 - 4000.

Lane appears unchanged - or those were final numbers above.

[Natural Citizen]

You have a link to precinct by precinct results in Multnomah? Plus maybe one from 2010?




Only for the general elections. Ballot measures I have what everyone else has with the exception of some word of mouth here and there. Working with paper ballots as well.

[Natural Citizen]

You have a link to precinct by precinct results in Multnomah? Plus maybe one from 2010?


New Numbers from Multnomah

State Measure 92
Vote for 1
Yes . . . . . . . . . . . . 177,830 62.40
No. . . . . . . . . . . . . 107,150 37.60

These new numbers do not help as much as expected. the margin goes from 66K to 70K, a gain of 4K, but not the 7K or 10K as expected.

New Clackmas
YES 0 0.00% 70,351 46.76% 70,351 46.76%
NO 0 0.00% 80,102 53.24% 80,102 53.24%

This is about 500 more nos. Not as bad as predicted which was 2K. 10000 + 500 - 4000.

Lane appears unchanged - or those were final numbers above.

Lane is only reporting around 93% the last I heard. Where are you getting these from?

Technically waiting on 4 counties.

[invisible]

You have a link to precinct by precinct results in Multnomah? Plus maybe one from 2010?


New Numbers from Multnomah

State Measure 92
Vote for 1
Yes . . . . . . . . . . . . 177,830 62.40
No. . . . . . . . . . . . . 107,150 37.60

These new numbers do not help as much as expected. the margin goes from 66K to 70K, a gain of 4K, but not the 7K or 10K as expected.

New Clackmas
YES 0 0.00% 70,351 46.76% 70,351 46.76%
NO 0 0.00% 80,102 53.24% 80,102 53.24%

This is about 500 more nos. Not as bad as predicted which was 2K. 10000 + 500 - 4000.

Lane appears unchanged - or those were final numbers above.


What percentage of precincts is counted for Multnomah and Clackamas Counties? I want to plug these new numbers back into my spreadsheet.

[Natural Citizen]

What percentage of precincts is counted for Multnomah and Clackamas Counties? I want to plug these new numbers back into my spreadsheet.

I don't know if those Clackamas numbers are accurate.

[parocks]

What percentage of precincts is counted for Multnomah and Clackamas Counties? I want to plug these new numbers back into my spreadsheet.

http://www.clackamas.us/elections/results.html
https://multco.us/elections

100 on both, according to this but you should check them out.

[invisible]

http://www.clackamas.us/elections/results.html
https://multco.us/elections

100 on both, according to this but you should check them out.

Plugging these new numbers into my spreadsheet as per post #86, my projection now looks like:
yes - 738277 = 49.85%
no - 742799 = 50.15%

So it's widened slightly, for failing. However, this new projection factors in the final tally from the county it was doing worst in. Therefore, the final tallies from the last two counties (where it was doing better) will narrow the gap again. If the projections hold exactly to the current percentages in the last two counties, it will very narrowly fail (to the point of recounts, lawsuits, etc), and the previous projection will be pretty accurate. The only chance of it outright passing (even very narrowly) is if the remaining votes to be tallied outperform the current percentages in the two remaining counties. This is going to be very, very close.

[Suzanimal]

The only libertarian thing you GMO people should be fighting for is allowing non-GMO producers to be able to label their food as such, something currently illegal. Why is that not the focus of your fight? I'll tell you why...infiltration.

+rep

http://i.imgur.com/6R20Hbq.png

[Natural Citizen]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by green73http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=5693833#post5693833)
The only libertarian thing you GMO people should be fighting for is allowing non-GMO producers to be able to label their food as such, something currently illegal. Why is that not the focus of your fight? I'll tell you why...infiltration.



+rep

http://i.imgur.com/6R20Hbq.png




green73 said quite a mouthful there when he summed up his logic with that line about infiltration. Hopefully he decides to follow up on that so that we may better understand the phenomenon. That's a rather broad topic itself aside from placing it into context with these particular citizens initiatives.

[donnay]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R8oL5Wihpg&list=UUvsye7V9psc-APX6wV1twLg#t=188

[invisible]

green73 said quite a mouthful there when he summed up his logic with that line about infiltration. Hopefully he decides to follow up on that so that we may better understand the phenomenon. That's a rather broad topic itself aside from placing it into context with these particular citizens initiatives.

Actually, his argument is also correct. The real problem here is that the gov't has stacked the deck, allowing fraud to take place. The GMO people aren't required to tell you what they are actually selling you, and those who want to sell non-GMO aren't allowed to tell you what they're selling you (although, as correctly pointed out, some products ARE labeled non-GMO --how is this possible?). Solving either half of this equation would protect against fraud, either or both solutions are legitimate and would remove the distortions of the free market.

Also, as you point out, you can't say that something is the same, when that same something HAS to be unique for a patent to be issued. This is another case of out gov't being bought off, and the deck being stacked so that the free market is being distorted and not allowed to work. There is also the issue of cross-contamination, with the courts stacking the deck even further.

The real infiltration happening here is that of the monsanto shills into every thread where the topic of GMO's happens to pop up. Every time it happens, out come the shills, like clockwork. They trot out the same old arguments against a mandate, and while those arguments may look correct on the surface, they do not address the entire picture of how the deck has been stacked on several levels. Looked at from the narrow perspective of which it is presented, their argument is correct. However, it fails when ALL of the distortions of the free market are examined as a whole, and viewed from the correct perspective of BOTH the free market being allowed to work without being distorted, and that preventing fraud is a legitimate function of gov't.

[Natural Citizen]

Actually, his argument is also correct. The real problem here is that the gov't has stacked the deck, allowing fraud to take place. The GMO people aren't required to tell you what they are actually selling you, and those who want to sell non-GMO aren't allowed to tell you what they're selling you (although, as correctly pointed out, some products ARE labeled non-GMO --how is this possible?). Solving either half of this equation would protect against fraud, either or both solutions are legitimate and would remove the distortions of the free market.

Also, as you point out, you can't say that something is the same, when that same something HAS to be unique for a patent to be issued. This is another case of out gov't being bought off, and the deck being stacked so that the free market is being distorted and not allowed to work. There is also the issue of cross-contamination, with the courts stacking the deck even further.

The real infiltration happening here is that of the monsanto shills into every thread where the topic of GMO's happens to pop up. Every time it happens, out come the shills, like clockwork. They trot out the same old arguments against a mandate, and while those arguments may look correct on the surface, they do not address the entire picture of how the deck has been stacked on several levels. Looked at from the narrow perspective of which it is presented, their argument is correct. However, it fails when ALL of the distortions of the free market are examined as a whole, and viewed from the correct perspective of BOTH the free market being allowed to work without being distorted, and that preventing fraud is a legitimate function of gov't.


Yes, I actually agree with his argument. It's his justification there with the line about infiltration that caught my interest. Especially when placed into context with "you GMO people". This personifies green73'sbenchmark for demonstrating political infiltration. libertarianism often serves as the very stalking horse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse)for fascism itself and so infiltration could be debated in a very broad way. I was just thinking that if we want to point fingers then lets do it right is all. You know? Although I do tend to try to avoid that kind of I, me, they, them, us discussion in practice.

Of course, If we take the single case where we saw Monsanto, and the so called all wonderful, all mighty, glorious defenders of liberty, the Koch netork , and what they did when they teamed up and hired the services of Congressman Mike Pompeo to introduce that mercantilist legislation that they penned up that would enforce into law to make it so that people had no means to know what was in their food and that states had no right to protect their citizens from this "government" intrusion we could certainly call that infiltration. What that serves is to protect these mercantilist monopolies from the free market by legally blocking any means for the consumer to make an informed choice. That's political infrastructure that they are using there. And I'll tell you what. It's strikingly similar to the logistics of the TPP in that we see these mercantilist companies and the politicians that they're funding setting up a system where they can legally trash the sovereignty of those whose laws they think will affect their future profits.

Backstory to that is here, btw, but I'll share a snippet below. Of course, we didn't seem to see anyone chime in on that thread with any accusations of infiltration. As I said, libertarianism is often the stalking horse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse)for fascism itself and this is merely one specific example. And, really, I'm only sharing this because it is specific to what is being discussed here in this thread. It's actually a very broad phenomenon that could be expanded upon with regard to many political issues and legislation...

Here is a thread with a bit more thorough discussion that particualr bill and the work of these so called liberty loving superstars...:cool:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?448892-Koch-ally-to-introduce-Monsanto-backed-bill-to-bar-state-GMO-labeling-laws/page3&highlight=Koch+ally+introduce+Monsanto-backed




Rep. Mike Pompeo will introduce legislation backed by powerful trade groups to prevent states from passing laws requiring the labeling of genetically-modified foods, according to reports. The bill is linked to biotech giant Monsanto and Koch Industries.

Pompeo will offer the bill in the US House before Congress leaves for Easter recess later this month, The Hill newspaper reported, citing industry sources. Politico also reported on the impending proposal. Pompeo’s office would not comment on the congressman’s intentions for a labeling restriction. The bill includes a “prohibition against mandatory labeling,” according to The Hill, echoing powerful interest groups that have already declared war against such “right to know” labeling laws around the nation.

It was revealed in recent months that powerful farming and biotechnology interest groups like Monsanto were joining forces – under the name 'Coalition for Safe Affordable Food' – to push a federal voluntary labeling standard for food made with genetically-modified organisms (GMOs) in an effort to stem the tide of state legislation seeking to mandate labeling.

Pompeo, a Republican from Kansas, has numerous ties to Charles and David Koch, heads of the formidable multinational corporation Koch Industries.
Pompeo founded Thayer Aerospace (now Nex-Tech Aerospace) with investment funds from Koch Industries. He then was named president of Sentry International, an oilfield equipment company that partners with Koch Industries.

In his initial run for Congress in 2010, Pompeo received more money from the Kochs than any other politician. Once in the House, the congressman introduced bills sympathetic to Koch Industries, The Washington Post reported.

Koch Industries’ subsidiary, Georgia-Pacific, is also a member of the Grocery Manufacturers Association.

“GMA’s selection of Congressman Pompeo as their champion shows how extreme the proposal really is,” said Colin O’Neil, director of government affairs for the Center for Food Safety. “Selecting Pompeo creates an unholy alliance between Monsanto and Koch Industries, two of the most reviled corporations in America.”

But green73's labeling argument itself, yes, I agree.

[PRB]

How can you beware or be resposible, if you have no idea what you are buying?

Be responsible by asking what you want to ask, be aware by being aware.

If you have no idea, you can ask, don't complain if nobody wants to answer though.

Nobody is stopping you from asking, and nobody is forcing you to buy, buy what you like, stop making me pay the government to force people to label when only you want to know.

Wanna play this "flip the script" shit game? Oh, so you must already know every bit about every single process and atom of the food you buy, or else you refuse to buy or want to force a label on it?

[Natural Citizen]

95% of est. votes counted



Yes


719,551

49.7%



No


729,641

50.3%




Should pop open here soon with the last couple of counties due out. Those were voting overwhelmingly in the yes side of things. Will see, I suppose. Still paper ballots mailed and post dated out there...

[PRB]

95% of est. votes counted



Yes

719,551
49.7%


No

729,641
50.3%



Should pop open here soon with the last couple of counties due out. Those were voting overwhelmingly in the yes side of things. Will see, I suppose. Still paper ballots mailed and post dated out there...

Wow, insanely close. Whatever the outcome, I'm sure that'll teach people to vote.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Who the hell needs Monsanto? Their biggest GMO foods are basically unnecessary for human existence anyway. White potatoes and soy are garbage. Oil has some limited use, but the fact that people mostly cook it makes it crap. Corn is so sweet today that you might as well scrap it with the cotton candy-no taste-hybridized apples. Animals that are fed grain are nowhere near the quality of grass fed, so scrap that. And they think they're going to concoct a salmon as good tasting as wild? Yeah, lay it on me, dipshits.

Tomatoes are about the only thing worthwhile; however, those are so easy to grown, that many should be able to cut down on store bought.

[PRB]

Who the hell needs Monsanto? Their biggest GMO foods are basically unnecessary for human existence anyway. White potatoes and soy are garbage. Oil has some limited use, but the fact that people mostly cook it makes it crap. Corn is so sweet today that you might as well scrap it with the cotton candy-no taste-hybridized apples. Animals that are fed grain are nowhere near the quality of grass fed, so scrap that. And they think they're going to concoct a salmon as good tasting as wild? Yeah, lay it on me, dipshits.

Tomatoes are about the only thing worthwhile; however, those are so easy to grown, that many should be able to cut down on store bought.

so who/what DO we need?

[Natural Citizen]

what DO we need?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKofnVkUwBA

[Natural Citizen]

Trimming...

> 95% of est. votes counted as of 6:24 pm


Yes


729,797

49.8%



No


736,711

50.2%




11th we should have all of the mail ins tallied also.

Put my helmet back on fer battle.

I think they're stalling, boys. Heh...

[invisible]

Interesting to see it closing in very closely to my projection. Do you have the latest vote totals and percent counted, for each of those last two counties? Or a link to them? If so, I'd like to put them back into my spreadsheet and see if it affects the projected result.

[Natural Citizen]

Interesting to see it closing in very closely to my projection. Do you have the latest vote totals and percent counted, for each of those last two counties? Or a link to them? If so, I'd like to put them back into my spreadsheet and see if it affects the projected result.

Nope. I just walked in the door about a half hour or so ago. Clackamas county did show a drop earlier in the day, though, once those were tallied but looks like we're seeing what we'd mentioned with regard to those last two counties which were overwhelmingly voting yes.

I'll go take a peek and try to find them, though. The crap of it is they aren't reliable and we get different results depending on our source. I'm kind of word of mouthing it here.

I'll be baaack....in my best Schwarzenegger impression.

[invisible]

Nope. I just walked in the door about a half hour or so ago. Clackamas county did show a drop earlier in the day, though, once those were tallied but looks like we're seeing what we'd mentioned with regard to those last two counties which were overwhelmingly voting yes.

I'll go take a peek and try to find them, though. The crap of it is they aren't reliable and we get different results depending on our source. I'm kind of word of mouthing it here.

The only thing is, if those last two counties hold to the same percentage of yes vs no votes, it still won't be enough to "catch up" and pass according to my projections. For it to pass, the percentage of yes votes in both counties would have to increase, rather than continue to hold at the same rate. Many thanks for keeping us all up to date with those vote totals!

[Natural Citizen]

The only thing is, if those last two counties hold to the same percentage of yes vs no votes, it still won't be enough to "catch up" and pass according to my projections. For it to pass, the percentage of yes votes in both counties would have to increase, rather than continue to hold at the same rate. Many thanks for keeping us all up to date with those vote totals!

Win or lose this particular citizen initiative, we live to fight another day. And we will fight another day. And every day. These initiatives will continue to show up during every cycle. And, of course, what we're seeing here is that 25 million smakaroonies from these out of state chemical companies can't and won't buy them love. :)


But aside from that spew I do have some county totals for State Ballot Measure No. 92 thus far. Here you go. It's not very useful, though. http://oregonvotes.gov/results/2014G/2013928344.html

Aside from that, voters have 14 days to fix their ballot if it is returned to them due to a signature dispute which we've seen happen several times. Many have provided feedback with regard to that as others prepared to vote. Deadline is the 18th and, of course, at .2% we're talking war. Recounts and whatnot like you'd mentioned previously.

[angelatc]

I can pull up a library of scientific evidence that fluoride is poisonous too, and yet it's in water and toothpaste. I'm against the double-standard playing out on these issues. On the one hand, everyone is thrilled that weed is legal, on the other, they freak out because some of us expect some consistency when it comes to labeling wtf is in our food.

GMO isn't "in our food." It's a process.

Youre confusing the words "poisionous" and "toxic." Actually, just about everything is toxic - it's the dose that's important. Low levels are beneficial, high levels are not. That's true of water as well as fluoride, as well as all the vitamins and minerals you can name.

But to stay on topic, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence from all across the planet from the complete spectrum of scientific bodies (private, public, academic, independent, and industry) that speaks to the safety of the process. At this point it's pretty clear that people shreiking that they haven't been tested and/or they're dangerous are simply never going to be convinced otherwise.

Cognitive dissonance.

[angelatc]

How can you beware or be resposible, if you have no idea what you are buying?

WHen someone says that, it's a pretty clear sign that that person will actually *NEVER* have any idea what they're buying but labeling isn't the problem. The school system is.

By all means, explain to us exactly what's in them thar GMO food that isn't in that thar other stuff.

[specsaregood]

./

[Natural Citizen]

Trimming...

> 95% of est. votes counted as of 6:24 pm


Yes


729,797

49.8%



No


736,711

50.2%




11th we should have all of the mail ins tallied also.

Put my helmet back on fer battle.

I think they're stalling, boys. Heh...

Looks like someone added exactly 1000 NO votes at 8:31 pm Nothing added to YES...

> 95% of est. votes counted

Yes


729,797

49.7%



No


737,711

50.3%




Can't make this stuff up.

It's so close and a .2 difference means an automatic recount. Is strange to see exactly 1000 votes added to the NO vote and nothing at all changing on the YES side of things.

[donnay]

Looks like someone added exactly 1000 NO votes at 8:31 pm Nothing added to YES...

> 95% of est. votes counted

Yes


729,797

49.7%



No


737,711

50.3%




Can't make this stuff up.

It's so close and a .2 difference means an automatic recount. Is strange to see exactly 1000 votes added to the NO vote and nothing at all changing on the YES side of things.

Nothing strange about rigging elections. That's the norm anymore. :mad:

[PRB]

Nothing strange about rigging elections. That's the norm anymore. :mad:

You can't have it both ways, if they rig it, why rig it so close?

Either voting makes a difference or there's rigger, it can't be both, make your mind up already.

[Natural Citizen]

You can't have it both ways, if they rig it, why rig it so close?

Either voting makes a difference or there's rigger, it can't be both, make your mind up already.

PRB, do you like movies? I don't generally watch them but sometimes I do. I saw a good one some time ago that I liked and so I went and bought the DVD. Anyhoo. To make a long story short there was a brief skit in that movie that I liked and it kind of stuck with me. It's pretty good. You want to know what it was? I'll tell you.

It went like this...

William H. Bonney talking to Doc... You remember the stories John use to tell us about the the three chinamen playing Fantan? This guy runs up to them and says, "Hey, the world’s coming to an end!" and the first one says, "Well, I best go to the mission and pray," and the second one says, "Well, hell, I’m gonna go and buy me a case of Mezcal and six whores," and the third one says "Well, I’m gonna finish the game." I shall finish the game, Doc.

Was one of the best lines of all time in a movie, I thought, because it certainly does reflect the way we respond when problems arise and demonstrates how people make choices that enable them to solve them or function aside from them.

[Natural Citizen]

Picking back up despite that scwewy 1000 NO votes that magically appeared last night...

> 95% of est. votes counted as of 1:48 pm


Yes


731,594

49.8%



No


738,451

50.2%

[Natural Citizen]

Nothing strange about rigging elections. That's the norm anymore. :mad:

This has happened twice now. Both times exactly 1000 NO votes have been added with 0 YES votes recorded. Someone wants to avoid a recount methinks. .2 is automatic recount territory.

Twice. Heh...

[invisible]

This has happened twice now. Both times exactly 1000 NO votes have been added with 0 YES votes recorded. Someone wants to avoid a recount methinks. .2 is automatic recount territory.

Twice. Heh...


I agree, it sure sounds like someone is trying awfully hard. The longer it takes to count the votes, the more suspect the count becomes. Did you happen get before and after screenshots?

[Natural Citizen]

I agree, it sure sounds like someone is trying awfully hard. The longer it takes to count the votes, the more suspect the count becomes. Did you happen get before and after screenshots?

Not me. Someone did get screenshots, though. Actually a couple thousand people got them. Heh.

You know, though, if it fails, it fails. It'll be back. 10 fold.

But there are a lot of mail ins from many of these counties that won't be completed until the 18th deadline and then you have active duty folks voting from abroad in there. We expect delays given the fact that we're dealing with paper ballots and all that comes with it.

But, yes. adding exactly 1000 votes twice to NO without the YES changing at all? Phhht. Riiiiight....

[invisible]

I'm not quite sure that I buy that explanation for the delays. Why are absentee ballots going to take two additional weeks for those two counties, when everywhere else has had 100% of the votes counted? If the absentee ballots explanation is true, then some percentage of the votes would be missing from every county, not just two of them. And why would it take so much longer to count the votes in two counties, when more votes were counted more quickly in other counties? They can count 50,000 votes from one place in a day, but are going to take two weeks to count the 3000 remaining votes somewhere else? Something is just not adding up here. Literally. It doesn't make sense, and I think something smells awfully funny here.

[Natural Citizen]

I'm not quite sure that I buy that explanation for the delays. Why are absentee ballots going to take two additional weeks for those two counties, when everywhere else has had 100% of the votes counted? If the absentee ballots explanation is true, then some percentage of the votes would be missing from every county, not just two of them. And why would it take so much longer to count the votes in two counties, when more votes were counted more quickly in other counties? They can count 50,000 votes from one place in a day, but are going to take two weeks to count the 3000 remaining votes somewhere else? Something is just not adding up here. Literally. It doesn't make sense, and I think something smells awfully funny here.


Right. They don't have all of the ballots for those counties. Is why I had mentioned that I didn't think those numbers were accurate for Clackamas when parocks shared those results and so the math wouldn't be correct. I don't think any county has all 100 % of their votes counted. Even if some source says they do, they don't. We won't have "official" results until the 18th deadline.

[parocks]

WHen someone says that, it's a pretty clear sign that that person will actually *NEVER* have any idea what they're buying but labeling isn't the problem. The school system is.

By all means, explain to us exactly what's in them thar GMO food that isn't in that thar other stuff.

What's in them thar GMO food?

Genes from species that are not in the original food.

For instance, a BT "potato" is a potato with genes from a bacteria, Bacillus thuringiensis

[donnay]

You can't have it both ways, if they rig it, why rig it so close?

Either voting makes a difference or there's rigger, it can't be both, make your mind up already.

There is rigging, and then, there is obvious rigging. But you have to know about rigging elections for it to be obvious--you get it?

[donnay]

What's in them thar GMO food?

Genes from species that are not in the original food.

For instance, a BT "potato" is a potato with genes from a bacteria, Bacillus thuringiensis


GM potato uses frog gene to resist pathogens
http://www.scidev.net/global/gm/news/gm-potato-uses-frog-gene-to-resist-pathogens.html

Genetically Modified Oranges With A Side Of Frog Genes
http://elizabethdougherty.com/2013/03/20/genetically-modified-oranges-with-a-side-of-frog-genes-elizabeth-dougherty-food-nation-radio-network/

[erowe1]

What's in them thar GMO food?

Genes from species that are not in the original food.

For instance, a BT "potato" is a potato with genes from a bacteria, Bacillus thuringiensis

But any time you compare any two potatoes or any other food, one of them will have DNA that's different from the other. So what? Whether GMO or not, the potato's DNA is a string of a few hundred million A's, C's, G's, and T's in an order that none of us know or ever used to care about.

[donnay]

But any time you compare any two potatoes or any other food, one of them will have DNA that's different from the other. So what? Whether GMO or not, the potato's DNA is a string of a few hundred million A's, C's, G's, and T's in an order that none of us know or ever used to care about.

Yeah because some of us trust God...not some scientist in a lab.

[erowe1]

Yeah because some of us trust God...not some scientist in a lab.

I don't get it. Is the thinking that somehow the scientist in the lab played some kind of trick on God and brought something into existence that God didn't want to exist?

[Deborah K]

I don't get it. Is the thinking that somehow the scientist in the lab played some kind of trick on God and brought something into existence that God didn't want to exist?

How do you know for sure that Satan isn't behind it?

[PRB]

There is rigging, and then, there is obvious rigging. But you have to know about rigging elections for it to be obvious--you get it?

what's the point of unobvious rigging? to waste money and lose?

[Natural Citizen]

How do you know for sure that Satan isn't behind it?

Ah-haaaaaa..said the blind man....to the deaf and dumb woman...as she showed him her....

Seriously, though, I've been wondering what the religious community had to say about this thing with patented genetic modification of agriculture using human genes.

Will most definitely rep e and Deborah on the plus since they went there.

[erowe1]

How do you know for sure that Satan isn't behind it?

Satan is not the creator. God is. These GMO plants come from plants God created that are amenable to genetic modification. The fact that they are such is proof that God made them that way, which He did according to the counsel of His good will. He made the plants, the DNA, the laws that guide the passing on of phenotypes, the scientists that would discover them, and ultimately the GMO foods that would come about by all this.

[Deborah K]

Satan is not the creator. God is. These GMO plants come from plants God created that are amenable to genetic modification. The fact that they are such is proof that God made them that way, which He did according to the counsel of His good will. He made the plants, the DNA, the laws that guide the passing on of phenotypes, the scientists that would discover them, and ultimately the GMO foods that would come about by all this.

Oh that's right, I forgot, you don't believe in free will. It would never occur to you that when God cast Satan to earth and let him rule it, that Satan might be doing evil down here, since scientists are Godly, and all. And evil-doing isn't really evil since God's a puppet master.

[donnay]

Satan is not the creator. God is. These GMO plants come from plants God created that are amenable to genetic modification. The fact that they are such is proof that God made them that way, which He did according to the counsel of His good will. He made the plants, the DNA, the laws that guide the passing on of phenotypes, the scientists that would discover them, and ultimately the GMO foods that would come about by all this.

You're right Satan isn't the creator, he is the great deceiver. Just like the people (obviously minions of his) who deceived other people that GMO's are perfectly safe to eat when there is no long term studies to prove that. Any of the independent studies that find problems with animals eating GMO's are usually castigated and force to retract.

[Natural Citizen]

Looks like it's maintaining the same scale with around 6000 or so more votes added between the two...

> 95% of est. votes counted


Yes


734,531

49.8%



No


741,165

50.2%

[Natural Citizen]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by invisiblehttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=5693869#post5693869)

What percentage of precincts is counted for Multnomah and Clackamas Counties? I want to plug these new numbers back into my spreadsheet.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Natural Citizenhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=5696105#post5696105)

I don't know if those Clackamas numbers are accurate.

1,000 "errant" NO votes from Clackamas county that we'd mentioned previously have been removed from the official county reporting totals thus far. Still another grand to fiddle with since it happened twice. Still tinkering with that. Was apparently one of those "innocent transcribing errors from the county". Heh...:rolleyes:

[donnay]

Not really surprised at all. SMDH

[invisible]

1,000 "errant" NO votes from Clackamas county that we'd mentioned previously have been removed from the official county reporting totals thus far. Still another grand to fiddle with since it happened twice. Still tinkering with that. Was apparently one of those "innocent transcribing errors from the county". Heh...:rolleyes:

Since you seem interested in my projections, I'd be glad to update them with the latest numbers. However, presentation of the latest numbers has gotten kind of confusing for me, so I haven't been updating since about the time you mentioned that first 1000 votes being added somewhere. Here's what my last set of numbers looked like:

Multnomah 100% reporting
yes - 177830
no - 107150

Lane 92.6% reporting
yes - 78073
no - 58146

Benton 91.7% reporting
yes - 19431
no - 17862

Clackamas 100% reporting
yes - 70351
no - 80102

If you can confirm the numbers for the two 100% reporting counties above, provide updated numbers and percentage reporting for the other two, and an updated overall total vote count, then I'd be glad to update my projections for you. As I said, the vote count seems to have suddenly gotten confusing, with all of the inaccuracies and random 1000 votes being added and subtracted multiple times. Plus, vote totals from a county or two have been given with "> 95% reporting", which also makes the numbers useless for the purposes of projecting the outcome (need an accurate % of votes counted). Again, many thanks for trying to keep everyone updated with what's happening here!

[Natural Citizen]

Since you seem interested in my projections, I'd be glad to update them with the latest numbers. However, presentation of the latest numbers has gotten kind of confusing for me, so I haven't been updating since about the time you mentioned that first 1000 votes being added somewhere. Here's what my last set of numbers looked like:

Multnomah 100% reporting
yes - 177830
no - 107150

Lane 92.6% reporting
yes - 78073
no - 58146

Benton 91.7% reporting
yes - 19431
no - 17862

Clackamas 100% reporting
yes - 70351
no - 80102

If you can confirm the numbers for the two 100% reporting counties above, provide updated numbers and percentage reporting for the other two, and an updated overall total vote count, then I'd be glad to update my projections for you. As I said, the vote count seems to have suddenly gotten confusing, with all of the inaccuracies and random 1000 votes being added and subtracted multiple times. Plus, vote totals from a county or two have been given with "> 95% reporting", which also makes the numbers useless for the purposes of projecting the outcome (need an accurate % of votes counted). Again, many thanks for trying to keep everyone updated with what's happening here!


I was going to tinker around a figger on it tomorrow evening some time. I do appreciate it when folks cross reference and crunch these things, though. There are a boat load of bollots that were returned for sig match problems so those need to be counted once they are returned. Normally, I wouldn't count those but it is extremely close. Of course we must consider mail in ballots and I'd still imagine that no county is at 100% even if they say they are.

Thanks for cross referencing those numbers, btw.

[parocks]

But any time you compare any two potatoes or any other food, one of them will have DNA that's different from the other. So what? Whether GMO or not, the potato's DNA is a string of a few hundred million A's, C's, G's, and T's in an order that none of us know or ever used to care about.

The genes in the potato are genes that are naturally in potatoes.

Unless it's a GMO potato, in which case there are genes from a bacteria.

In nature, genes from bacteria can't be in a potato.

[parocks]

Yeah because some of us trust God...not some scientist in a lab.

Whether it's God, or Evolution, that made potatoes the way they are, humans were created, or evolved, to eat potatoes without bacteria genes in them.

Nobody has any idea about any of the weird stuff that happens to humans from eating something that is very similar to actual food, but is different in quite significant ways.

We have no idea what effect this "food" has on us or on other animals or plants. It's hurting us.

[Natural Citizen]

A little over 13,000 contested ballots. Signature matching. Heh...

13,000 Ore. ballots rejected for signature issue (http://koin.com/2014/11/11/13000-ore-ballots-rejected-for-signature-issue/)



SALEM, Ore. (AP) — Oregon election officials say 13,000 voters whose ballots were rejected have one more week to fix problems with their signature on the envelope.

The Secretary of State’s Office said Tuesday that ballots without signature problems resolved will not be counted.

[invisible]

A little over 13,000 contested ballots. Signature matching. Heh...

Are those contested yes votes? Contested no votes? Or a mix of both?

[Natural Citizen]

Are those contested yes votes? Contested no votes? Or a mix of both?

Don't know for sure. 13,000 sure is a lot, though. It's abnormal. I'd imagine that any yes votes would be promptly resolved once those folks are notified. This is a big issue for them and, frankly, brought the demograph out to vote during the mid-term. Kind of in the middle of a waiting game here.

[Natural Citizen]

I talk with a good number of farmers in my work. My impression is that most of them really don't like the Monsantos, Pioneers, Syngentas of the world, but they sort of grin and bear it. It's their life. Some are in deep, but a lot have other jobs. A lot of them also don't like some of the intrusive technology. Don't know if I'd describe them as passive, but not sure how I'd describe them.

Anyway, just an observation. Nothing measured or scientific.

Well. I don't know. I suppose it's a mixed batch.

A lot of farmers are becoming more politically active in their communities as they continue to abandon GMO seed for many reasons.

Here are some farmers who are becoming active specific to this particular ballot measure in Oregon. I'd maintain that 2% is just about what it'll take to cause change. Is a good historical figure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCBShpIn1Qo&list=UUjADBHcG7BE8smvenL74kAw


Non-GMO is more profitable, many say. As well, they are seeing that they get the same or better yields with non-gmo seeds. A phenomenon that simply contradicts the sales pitch that they're given from these companies.

Here is a good discussion on the phenomenon here on the forum. I'll share a snippet and link to it.




A growing number of farmers are abandoning genetically modified seeds, but it’s not because they are ideologically opposed to the industry.Simply put, they say non-GMO crops are more productive and profitable.

Modern Farmer magazine discovered that there is a movement among farmers abandoning genetically modified organisms (http://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/12/18/farmer-blames-gmo-feed-for-pig-deformities-and-deaths/) (GMO) because of simple economics.

“We get the same or better yields, and we save money up front,” crop consultant and farmer Aaron Bloom said of non-GMO seeds. Bloom has been experimenting with non-GMO seeds for five years and he has discovered that non-GMO is more profitable.

The re-converts to non-GMO seeds (http://modernfarmer.com/2013/12/post-gmo-economy/) are not hippies but conservative Midwestern farmers who are making a business decision, Modern Farmer discovered. They are switching back to natural seed because it is more profitable — not because of any ideology.

“Five years ago the [GMO seeds] worked,” said farmer Christ Huegerich, who along with his father planted GMO seeds. “I didn’t have corn rootworm because of the Bt gene, and I used less pesticide. Now, the worms are adjusting, and the weeds are resistant. Mother Nature adapts.”

Farmers can get paid more for conventional corn than GMO corn. Plus, Huegerich discovered, convention corn can produce more per acre. Modern Farmer reported that two years ago, Huegerich planted 320 acres of conventional corn and 1,700 with GMO corn. The conventional fields “yielded 15 to 30 more bushels per acre than the GMO fields, with a profit margin of up to $100 more per acre.” Last year, he planted convention corn in 750 acres.
“I get a fifty-cent-per-bushel premium,” Huegerich said of the non-GMO corn (http://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/12/03/china-rejects-gmo-corn-and-us-markets-plummet/) he grows in Breda, Iowa.

Herbicide use increased by 26 percent between 2001 and 2010 because of the spread of herbicide-resistant weeds. Huegerich said he used herbicides on GMO corn and conventional corn, even though theoretically he shouldn’t have to use it on his genetically modified crop.
The group Farm & Water Watch reported that 61.2 million acres of cropland in the US are plagued by weeds that are resistant to the popular glyphosate herbicides.



Farmers Abandoning GMO Seeds: Non-GMO is more profitable (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444117-Farmers-Abandoning-GMO-Seeds-Non-GMO-is-more-profitable&p=5417595&viewfull=1#post5417595)

[Natural Citizen]

5100 and some change in the vote total difference. Closing in as ballots are counted.



Yes


738,323

49.83%



No


743,505

50.17%




Gonna get jiggy now...

Contested votes (only) by county minus those which have been remedied thus far...

Multnomah 2956
Lane 1573
Washington 1570
Clackamas 1129
Jackson 838
Marion 810
des Chutes 586
Josephine 404
Linn 322
Yamhill 316
Douglas 243
Benton 187
Coos 167
Polk 152
Klamath 143
Lincoln 118
Umatilla 109
Tillamook 96
Columbia 81
Hood River 64
Union 59
Curry 44
Wasco 42
Clatsop 33
Jefferson 30
Crook 26
Baker 16
Grant 11
Lake 5
Harney 4
Morrow 3
Wallowa 3
Wheeler 1





Yes

No

Total



Baker

2,313

32.16%

4,879

67.84%

7,192



Benton

19,431

52.10%

17,862

47.90%

37,293



Clackamas

73,943

46.97%

83,491

53.03%

157,434



Clatsop

7,174

50.45%

7,046

49.55%

14,220



Columbia

9,097

45.18%

11,040

54.82%

20,137



Coos

10,977

45.93%

12,924

54.07%

23,901



Crook

2,819

31.13%

6,237

68.87%

9,056



Curry

5,132

52.44%

4,655

47.56%

9,787



Deschutes

31,583

46.40%

36,490

53.60%

68,073



Douglas

16,778

40.65%

24,494

59.35%

41,272



Gilliam

211

23.37%

692

76.63%

903



Grant

1,040

31.52%

2,260

68.48%

3,300



Harney

791

26.35%

2,211

73.65%

3,002



Hood River

4,487

53.59%

3,886

46.41%

8,373



Jackson

44,418

54.99%

36,354

45.01%

80,772



Jefferson

2,234

32.31%

4,680

67.69%

6,914



Josephine

16,503

48.85%

17,277

51.15%

33,780



Klamath

8,278

36.13%

14,632

63.87%

22,910



Lake

938

29.12%

2,283

70.88%

3,221



Lane

84,728

57.60%

62,378

42.40%

147,106



Lincoln

10,387

52.70%

9,321

47.30%

19,708



Linn

16,362

37.60%

27,159

62.40%

43,521



Malheur

2,395

31.60%

5,183

68.40%

7,578



Marion

42,712

41.66%

59,811

58.34%

102,523



Morrow

853

26.87%

2,322

73.13%

3,175



Multnomah

181,207

62.41%

109,122

37.59%

290,329



Polk

12,803

41.82%

17,815

58.18%

30,618



Sherman

205

22.70%

698

77.30%

903



Tillamook

4,806

44.77%

5,930

55.23%

10,736



Umatilla

6,029

31.70%

12,987

68.30%

19,016



Union

3,382

32.70%

6,961

67.30%

10,343



Wallowa

1,294

35.58%

2,343

64.42%

3,637



Wasco

3,645

39.62%

5,556

60.38%

9,201



Washington

93,698

48.31%

100,267

51.69%

193,965



Wheeler

229

32.21%

482

67.79%

711



Yamhill

15,441

41.49%

21,777

58.51%

37,218



Totals:

738,323

49.83%

743,505

50.17%

1,481,828

[invisible]

Wow! That's amazingly close to my projection! (post #128) Looks like I'm going to be even more accurate than I thought.

[Natural Citizen]

Wow! That's amazingly close to my projection! (post #128) Looks like I'm going to be even more accurate than I thought.

The remaining votes to be tallied may be majority YES. Will be close, for sure. Phone calling is in overdrive with regard to those contested ballots. Transporting people if need be. People are on it. Funds are sufficient so that it may continue. Will see how it pans out.

[invisible]

The remaining votes to be tallied may be majority YES. Will be close, for sure. Phone calling is in overdrive with regard to those contested ballots. Transporting people if need be. People are on it. Funds are sufficient so that it may continue. Will see how it pans out.

I don't claim to be an expert on statistical matters, but it seems intuitive to me that the remaining votes will tend to have a yes / no distribution that closely follows the totals for the county they came from, just as my original projection did. I'm not so sure that people voting one particular way would be any more or less inclined to verify their contested ballots. I think which counties have more or less of their ballots completely thrown out will make more difference, again because this will follow the percentage of the vote totals in each county.

[donnay]

Whether it's God, or Evolution, that made potatoes the way they are, humans were created, or evolved, to eat potatoes without bacteria genes in them.

Nobody has any idea about any of the weird stuff that happens to humans from eating something that is very similar to actual food, but is different in quite significant ways.

We have no idea what effect this "food" has on us or on other animals or plants. It's hurting us.

GMO's screws with our DNA and genetic expression (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/02/18/eating-wrong-plants-can-mess-dna-expression.aspx). The Biotechs are playing God and the people have done just fine without these evil corporations molesting our foods. When I say, "MonSatan" I really mean it.

[56ktarget]

Its interesting to see the Paulites struggle with their hatred for government and love for transparency.

[Natural Citizen]

I don't claim to be an expert on statistical matters, but it seems intuitive to me that the remaining votes will tend to have a yes / no distribution that closely follows the totals for the county they came from, just as my original projection did. I'm not so sure that people voting one particular way would be any more or less inclined to verify their contested ballots. I think which counties have more or less of their ballots completely thrown out will make more difference, again because this will follow the percentage of the vote totals in each county.

Well. We get to be a bit selective at this point in the game, invisible. Agreed on your points, though.

[Natural Citizen]

I don't claim to be an expert on statistical matters, but it seems intuitive to me that the remaining votes will tend to have a yes / no distribution that closely follows the totals for the county they came from, just as my original projection did.

Looks like some of these counties which had previously been majority NO are changing to majority YES. Will update those numbers a little later.

[invisible]

Looks like some of these counties which had previously been majority NO are changing to majority YES. Will update those numbers a little later.

Interesting, TY. I look forward to your updates.

[Natural Citizen]

Interesting, TY. I look forward to your updates.

Some relevant reading while we wait for some of these...




Among their fellow non-party voters, 1.2 percent either forgot to sign their ballots or had signatures that didn't match their registration card.

In second place, Independents had 1.1 percent, Democrats with .07 percent and Republicans with .06 percent.

A new law allows the problem ballot list to be publicly released before the deadline passes and allows campaign representatives to call you and urge you to fix issues and be counted. Campaign representatives also may offer to drive voters to elections offices, though they're not allowed to pressure them on their votes on the way.



Are you on the list? Elections offices release names of Oregon voters with problem ballots (http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/11/are_you_on_the_list_elections.html)

[Natural Citizen]

Plugging these new numbers into my spreadsheet as per post #86, my projection now looks like:
yes - 738277 = 49.85%
no - 742799 = 50.15%



Currently...



Yes


740,917

49.85%



No


745,456

50.15%




Very good grasshoppa.

More to count as we move toward the 18th deadline...

[invisible]

Currently...



Yes


740,917

49.85%



No


745,456

50.15%




Very good grasshoppa.

More to count as we move toward the 18th deadline...

But if some of the "no" counties are now swinging towards "yes", and the difference is something like 1% of the county's vote total (at least that's how I read post #190 - and you forgot the link btw, so no idea where that came from), that should be more than enough to throw the final result to more than 50% yes. But of course, the presentation of the numbers is still confusing enough to make any sort of accurate projection impossible at this point. When that first 1000 votes got mysteriously added to the no total, I entered that into my spreadsheet just to see what happened, and it changed the final result by something like .08%, so a couple thousand more yes votes will tip the balance.

[Natural Citizen]

When that first 1000 votes got mysteriously added to the no total, I entered that into my spreadsheet just to see what happened, and it changed the final result by something like .08%, so a couple thousand more yes votes will tip the balance.

Yep. That erroneous 1000 vote addition to NO was caught and subsequently removed, thankfully. I'm keeping my battle helmet on just in case. :)

Sorry for not linking to that snippet in the earlier post. I never forget to source what I share here. Was incompetence on my part. It was from an online newspaper in Oregon. I'll have to try remember which one and go look for it and then I'll add it to post 190.

[invisible]

Yep. That erroneous 1000 vote addition to NO was caught and subsequently removed, thankfully. I'm keeping my battle helmet on just in case. :)

Sorry for not linking to that snippet in the earlier post. I never forget to source what I share here. Was incompetence on my part. It was from an online newspaper in Oregon. I'll have to try remember which one and go look for it and then I'll add it to post 190.

Oh, I didn't think you quoted something inaccurately, or anything like that. I just would find the article interesting to read! :)

[Natural Citizen]

Oh, I didn't think you quoted something inaccurately, or anything like that. I just would find the article interesting to read! :)

Yes, I know that you didn't. I added a link to the thing in post 190, btw. Speaking off the record, it could be considered reasonable for one to wonder if the No On 92 folks may have had some people working in some of these critical counties and questioning the signatures on the ballots of the YES On 92 Demographic. I only mention this because of the number of contested votes in particular counties. Again, I'm mentioning this off the record but it certainly would be reasonable for one to consider the phenomenon given the percentage of remedied YES votes of contested ballots.

[Natural Citizen]

...a couple thousand more yes votes will tip the balance.

Looking better. Nobody is paying attention.

[invisible]

Looking better. Nobody is paying attention.

What do you mean? Who is not paying attention, to what?

[angelatc]

GMO's screws with our DNA and genetic expression (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/02/18/eating-wrong-plants-can-mess-dna-expression.aspx). The Biotechs are playing God and the people have done just fine without these evil corporations molesting our foods. When I say, "MonSatan" I really mean it.

God clearly and plainly gave us dominion over the plants and the animals. You're such a keen researcher - how did you miss that?

The human genome has been mapped, go look for yourself and see what percentage of genes have genetically transferred from plants. Scientists aren't worried about horizontal gene transfer. And it was happening long before GMO foods were introduced to the world.

You're not going to start expressing the genes that were inserted/modified because you eat GMOs. Changes in your nutrient intake may cause changes in expression, some of which may be persistent, but everything you eat “can change your DNA” in that sense. Diet is and always has been one of environmental factors that affect genetic expression. But unless you're ingesting pure plutonium or nitrous acid, it's not altering your genome, but its expression.

Next life, try to make it past 8th grade.

[angelatc]

We have no idea what effect this "food" has on us or on other animals or plants. It's hurting us.

No it isn't. In our diets every day for an entire generation now, not one disease or illness linked to it. Although I do believe I could make the case that eating organic makes people into simpletons.

[angelatc]

It speaks largely to the ability of the leftists to poll correctly when every single poll shows 85 - 90% of voters support labeling, yet it almost always fails miserably at the ballot box, even in the cherry-picked proving grounds of liberalism. Science is hard.

They can't get this nonsense passed in Washington and California? *snicker*

Now I suppose one of our regulars will come and direly warn us that it doesn't matter anyway - there is some wave of something coming to take over regardless. Because freedom.

[invisible]

It speaks largely to the ability of the leftists to poll correctly when every single poll shows 85 - 90% of voters support labeling, yet it almost always fails miserably at the ballot box, even in the cherry-picked proving grounds of liberalism. Science is hard.

They can't get this nonsense passed in Washington and California? *snicker*

Now I suppose one of our regulars will come and direly warn us that it doesn't matter anyway - there is some wave of something coming to take over regardless. Because freedom.

If you believe that eliminating fraud is strictly a liberal issue, would you like to buy some "fudge"?

[donnay]

God clearly and plainly gave us dominion over the plants and the animals. You're such a keen researcher - how did you miss that?

The human genome has been mapped, go look for yourself and see what percentage of genes have genetically transferred from plants. Scientists aren't worried about horizontal gene transfer. And it was happening long before GMO foods were introduced to the world.

You're not going to start expressing the genes that were inserted/modified because you eat GMOs. Changes in your nutrient intake may cause changes in expression, some of which may be persistent, but everything you eat “can change your DNA” in that sense. Diet is and always has been one of environmental factors that affect genetic expression. But unless you're ingesting pure plutonium or nitrous acid, it's not altering your genome, but its expression.

Next life, try to make it past 8th grade.

Exogenous plant MIR168a specifically targets mammalian LDLRAP1: evidence of cross-kingdom regulation by microRNA
http://www.nature.com/cr/journal/v22/n1/full/cr2011158a.html

Growing fatter on a GM diet
http://sciencenordic.com/growing-fatter-gm-diet

Scientists: New GMO wheat may 'silence' vital human genes
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/332822

Complete Genes May Pass from Food to Human Blood
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0069805

The Very Real Danger of Genetically Modified Foods
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/01/the-very-real-danger-of-genetically-modified-foods/251051/

Genetically modified wheat potentially silence our genes
http://www.inbi.canterbury.ac.nz/Documents/Reports%20and%20others/Heinemann-Report-20120828.pdf

Scientists discover double meaning in genetic code
http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/12/12/scientists-discover-double-meaning-in-genetic-code/

Confirmed: DNA From Genetically Modified Crops Can Be Transferred Into Humans Who Eat Them
http://livefreelivenatural.com/confirmed-dna-genetically-modified-crops-can-transferred-humans-eat/#sthash.T66yOeAF.dpuf

Ten Scientific Studies Prove that Genetically Modified Food Can Be Harmful To Human Health
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ten-scientific-studies-proving-gmos-can-be-harmful-to-human-health/5377054

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zvgmV8MGrAU

I don't know about you, but I am not comfortable being a lab rat. I rather let nature take it's course not MonSATAN.

Hosea 4:6
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

[Natural Citizen]

What do you mean? Who is not paying attention, to what?

Oh. I'm sorry, invisible. I was kind of just typing to myself there. Heh. What I meant was that I've read many, many recent articles where the authors have said that the bill has failed and what they do is follow that line with "So then the question becomes..."

Of course we know that questions don't become anything even if this particular citizens initiative happens to not pass. Questions don't go away. But there is a silly phenomenon that we have where we just listen to the news and when they tell us it's over, then, by gosh, it must be over. And so we stop paying attention. I suppose that I was thinking more along the lines of our professionals in journalism. Many just write it up and call it a day.

Comparable to what I had shared with PRB in post #151, I suppose.

[angelatc]

E

I don't know about you, but I am not comfortable being a lab rat. I rather let nature take it's course not MonSATAN.

Hosea 4:6
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."


E

I don't know about you, but I am not comfortable being a lab rat. I rather let nature take it's course not MonSATAN.

You've got a new juevenile catch phrase to go along with big pHARMa and all the others you cling to. How very liberal of you. Actually though, I love it - it only underscores that you're an ideologue through and through, not interested in facts, only using these forums to further your personal agenda of expanding government and restricting free markets.

17 years in the food supply and not a single health incident. Nada, none, zip. Nobody suing because GMOs gave them the morgellons or gluten intolerance. Not a single lawsuit? In America? Go figure.

The fact remains that the free market is always a better tool to decide these things. Nobody cares what you want and nobody shoudl have to hear it day after day after day. Go graze, go eat organic, and leave my damned food alone.


Hosea 4:6
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge,

*Snort* Says the high school dropout who would rather see children in Africa die from starvation and go blind rather than let them eat Golden Rice? Or is "Ignorance is intelligence!" some deep liberal Orwellian philosophy? I mean, you guys don't have to trust the scientists, but unless you can either disprove the entire scientific method, or produce something that resembles an iota of proof of your hypothesis, that's all you have. A hypothesis, which is unsupported by anything resembling evidence. Which makes it a flawed hypothesis. As in - there is no evidence that horizontal gene transfers are any more or less "dangerous!!!!" than vertical gene transfers.


Gen. 1:28) "
“Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
(Gen. 1:26) “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth"


(Psalm 8:)
4.What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him?
5.For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
6.You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet...

So the people in these forums screeching that GMOs are dangerous and bad, simply because they are not smart enough to understand basic science are here doing Satan's work. Either they're intentionally evil, driven by only by their own self interest, or he has made them into blind tools.

[Natural Citizen]

Current ballot count has yet to be released. Most recently...



Yes


740,917

49.85%



No


745,456

50.15%





Aside - 2 developers sue Hawaii county to halt GMO law (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415565-March-Against-Monsanto-Updates&p=5700896&viewfull=1#post5700896)

Previously...Maui GMO ban passes (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415565-March-Against-Monsanto-Updates&p=5692929&viewfull=1#post5692929)




The first ballots to be counted show 58 percent of voters oppose the ban. But, by the third printout, there were 50 percent "yes" votes. It appears that the initiative has passed.

Maui is home to farms owned by national companies like Monsanto and a Dow Chemical subsidiary, which produce new varieties of genetically engineered seeds





If one reflects on this lawsuit and others that will certainly follow as the people introduce more of these citizens initiatives, it begs the question of the rule of law. Is justice something that is to be purchased without deliberation? And what of the courts and so called unbiased judges who dispense it? We know much of the revolving door that exists within these companies, the courts and government bodies. The phenomenon that we see with regard to these companies and major block/share holders (yet to be known) who use patent law to undermine the ability of the people to grow and eat what they want in a way that stimulates control of the food supply in their corrporate socialist/mercantilist favor could be said to be a direct contradiction of the old endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness gag. We like to think that America is a Republic but this is a phenomenon that only resides on paper it would seem.

But I digress. Is a debate for another day and I suppose that I ask it here given debate that we see in some recent postings from the evangelical community with regard to "life". At the moment it's important to focus on the subject here, which, of course, would be the peoples right to know what they consume. To participate in a genuine free market system where a mechanism for choice exists and freedom to choose establishes the winners and losers. Mercantilist infrastructure that we have at the moment in the way that was described here actually protects these industries from the free market. And spending $25 million from out of state to oppose a citizens initiative for a right to know and make an informed choice is demonstrative of this mercantilist model.

[Lucille]

No it isn't. In our diets every day for an entire generation now, not one disease or illness linked to it. Although I do believe I could make the case that eating organic makes people into simpletons.


You've got a new juevenile catch phrase to go along with big pHARMa and all the others you cling to. How very liberal of you. Actually though, I love it - it only underscores that you're an ideologue through and through, not interested in facts, only using these forums to further your personal agenda of expanding government and restricting free markets.

17 years in the food supply and not a single health incident. Nada, none, zip. Nobody suing because GMOs gave them the morgellons or gluten intolerance. Not a single lawsuit? In America? Go figure.
[...]
*Snort* Says the high school dropout who would rather see children in Africa die from starvation and go blind rather than let them eat Golden Rice? Or is "Ignorance is intelligence!" some deep liberal Orwellian philosophy? I mean, you guys don't have to trust the scientists, but unless you can either disprove the entire scientific method, or produce something that resembles an iota of proof of your hypothesis, that's all you have. A hypothesis, which is unsupported by anything resembling evidence. Which makes it a flawed hypothesis. As in - there is no evidence that horizontal gene transfers are any more or less "dangerous!!!!" than vertical gene transfers.
[...]
So the people in these forums screeching that GMOs are dangerous and bad, simply because they are not smart enough to understand basic science are here doing Satan's work. Either they're intentionally evil, driven by only by their own self interest, or he has made them into blind tools.

I'd love to see you go tell Taleb (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?462157-Genetically-Modified-Organisms-Risk-Global-Ruin-Says-Black-Swan-Author-Nassim-Taleb) what an unscientific dumbass and tool of Satan he is: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152562068328375&id=13012333374

See you on your next drive-by!

[Natural Citizen]

.3% separates the YES ballots from the NO ballots. Out of state companies who had spent millions of dollars to oppose this citizens initiative scrambling to make sure that Contested NO ballots are being remedied. Heh...

[invisible]

.3% separates the YES ballots from the NO ballots. Out of state companies who had spent millions of dollars to oppose this citizens initiative scrambling to make sure that Contested NO ballots are being remedied. Heh...

Still the same count and percentages given in post #205, then?

[Natural Citizen]

Still the same count and percentages given in post #205, then?

No update until probably this evening on official count. .3 % was the last official update which was prior to the weekend. The purpose of that last posting was just to mention that the NO folks are now scrambling to remedy the contested NO ballats. Something they had neglected. It just felt kind of naked to not share some sort of number.

As was mentioned .2% renders an automatic recount. Anything outside of .2% would need to be funded.

[PRB]

.3% separates the YES ballots from the NO ballots. Out of state companies who had spent millions of dollars to oppose this citizens initiative scrambling to make sure that Contested NO ballots are being remedied. Heh...

why you no liek free speech and free market?

[Natural Citizen]

why you no liek free speech and free market?

Mercantilism is the antithesis of the free market. The practice we see with these companies blocking consumers from knowing what they consume removes any mechanism that consumers have to choose and participate in a genuine free market system where winners and losers are decided the old fashioned way.

Mercantilism protects industry from the free market. And I have no problem with free speech. The more the merrier, I say. Is what makes the infowar such a hoot, PRB.

I just got done explaining this in post #205. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?462508-GMO-labeling-on-the-Ballot-in-Oregon&p=5702943&viewfull=1#post5702943

[donnay]

Mercantilism is the antithesis of the free market. The practice we see with these companies blocking consumers from knowing what they consume removes any mechanism that consumers have to choose and participate in a genuine free market system where winners and losers are decided the old fashioned way.

Mercantilism protects industry from the free market. And I have no problem with free speech. The more the merrier, I say. Is what makes the infowarsuch a hoot, PRB.

I just got done explaining this in post #205. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?462508-GMO-labeling-on-the-Ballot-in-Oregon&p=5702943&viewfull=1#post5702943



"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Natural Citizen again".

Lot's of people only hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see. It is truly frustrating.

[invisible]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Natural Citizen again".

Lot's of people only hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see. It is truly frustrating.

Don't worry, I've already covered it for you. :)

[Natural Citizen]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Natural Citizen again".

Lot's of people only hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see. It is truly frustrating.

I look at it like this. And you may have experience with this. We often spend a lot of time (outside of a place like this) trying to teach people who actually don't know what they should be arguing for with regard to this thing. I don't agree with forced government things like labeling but that argument is too often given in defense of the free market but from folks who just don't know that they are actually defending the mercantilism of it all. Which, as we know, is not the free market, never was and never will be. It's becoming common practice to make a case against government intrusion by way of offering an argument that, really, is premised upon just that very thing. It's a tough one to conquer.

I'm not mad at PRB. Was just a prime example of the phenomenon.

[osan]

You bet it's already being done!! This godforsaken state I live in just pulled Red Raspberry leaf supplement off the shelf because the producers are now being mandated to add in the labeling that it has trace amounts of led (no more than what's in the dirt we grow our food in, mind you). And so now, the ONE ingredient that was controlling night sweats and hot flashes for me is off the shelf until all the labels are changed. But the bastards won't label GMO food!!!

Well for Christ's sake grow your own. Raspberries grow well and are easy. In fact, if you have a decent place for them, keeping growth at bay is the problem you stand to face. Just get a tub of raspberries from the store, toss a few into pots and you will have seedlings in a short while.

[Natural Citizen]

Still the same count and percentages given in post #205, then?

It looks like a little more ballots are coming back YES than NO compared to previous update but % remains the same for the time being.



Yes


741,488

49.85%



No


746,012

50.15%




Still over 11,000 contested ballots out there that people just aren't taking the time to remedy. I'd imagine enough to tip the scale but that is, of course, speculative. Lots and lots of contested ballots. I still consider it reasonable for one to wonder if the No On 92 folks may have had some people working in some of these critical counties and questioning the signatures on these ballots. It's certainly something to give more attention moving forward to future cycles in other states where these citizens initiatives will certainly be on the ballot. Interesting times...

[PRB]

Mercantilism is the antithesis of the free market. The practice we see with these companies blocking consumers from knowing what they consume removes any mechanism that consumers have to choose and participate in a genuine free market system where winners and losers are decided the old fashioned way.


Cool story bro.

How about some evidence

1. campaigning is mercantilism
2. campaigning is not free speech
3. campaigning is blocking anybody from knowing anything



Mercantilism protects industry from the free market. And I have no problem with free speech. The more the merrier, I say. Is what makes the infowar such a hoot, PRB.

I just got done explaining this in post #205. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?462508-GMO-labeling-on-the-Ballot-in-Oregon&p=5702943&viewfull=1#post5702943

I am aware mercantilism protects people from competition, I am not convinced this is an example of it.

[Natural Citizen]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Natural Citizenhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=5704177#post5704177)
Mercantilism is the antithesis of the free market. The practice we see with these companies blocking consumers from knowing what they consume removes any mechanism that consumers have to choose and participate in a genuine free market system where winners and losers are decided the old fashioned way.


Cool story bro.

How about some evidence

1. campaigning is mercantilism
2. campaigning is not free speech
3. campaigning is blocking anybody from knowing anything


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Natural Citizenhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=5704177#post5704177)

Mercantilism protects industry from the free market. And I have no problem with free speech. The more the merrier, I say. Is what makes the infowar such a hoot, PRB.

I just got done explaining this in post #205. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5702943 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?462508-GMO-labeling-on-the-Ballot-in-Oregon&p=5702943&viewfull=1#post5702943)


I am aware mercantilism protects people from competition, I am not convinced this is an example of it.

I am going to, one time, give you the opportunity to reconsider what you're inviting from me here. One time. If you choose not to consider my offer and perhaps have neglected to read some of the many postings that I've shared in this thread as well as others with regard to the subject then I'd expect for you to finish the debate. That is to say that it wouldn't be very polite to invite and engage in something that we may not be prepared or willing to finish. Snarky one liners and meme speak do not equate to debate, btw. Not that I'm encouraging the notion that this is what is to be expect from you but I'd just like to mention this so that we have a fair understanding of one another prior to debating the matter.

So, again...one time. Is this a subject that you wish to expand upon and are prepared to finish? I'll admit, I'm a stickler for a good debate. Bro.

[PRB]

If one reflects on this lawsuit and others that will certainly follow as the people introduce more of these citizens initiatives, it begs the question of the rule of law. Is justice something that is to be purchased without deliberation?


The alternative is justice can't be purchased at all, which is socialism.



And what of the courts and so called unbiased judges who dispense it?


I'm not afraid of biased judges, I'm afraid of people who disagree with me.



We know much of the revolving door that exists within these companies, the courts and government bodies. The phenomenon that we see with regard to these companies and major block/share holders (yet to be known) who use patent law to undermine the ability of the people to grow and eat what they want in a way that stimulates control of the food supply in their corrporate socialist/mercantilist favor could be said to be a direct contradiction of the old endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness gag. We like to think that America is a Republic but this is a phenomenon that only resides on paper it would seem.


Patented seeds do not prevent competition. And please stop spreading the conspiracy theory about Monsanto suing polluted farms.



But I digress. Is a debate for another day and I suppose that I ask it here given debate that we see in some recent postings from the evangelical community with regard to "life". At the moment it's important to focus on the subject here, which, of course, would be the peoples right to know what they consume. To participate in a genuine free market system where a mechanism for choice exists and freedom to choose establishes the winners and losers. Mercantilist infrastructure that we have at the moment in the way that was described here actually protects these industries from the free market. And spending $25 million from out of state to oppose a citizens initiative for a right to know and make an informed choice is demonstrative of this mercantilist model.

are you saying you'd never sue to halt a law?

[PRB]

So, again...one time. Is this a subject that you wish to expand upon and are prepared to finish? I'll admit, I'm a stickler for a good debate. Bro.

On at least one simply condition : answer my questions first.

[invisible]

I'm not afraid of biased judges, I'm afraid of people who disagree with me.

That's certainly an interesting admission, especially considering the various things on which you disagree with people here on RPF.

[Natural Citizen]

On at least one simply condition : answer my questions first.

Very well then. But I am going to go read some of the other threads, though. I didn't log on to fiddle with this.

In the meantime, I've set a table. PRB's debate with Natural Citizen (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463252-PRB-s-debate-with-Natural-Citizen&p=5704404#post5704404)

[Natural Citizen]

The alternative is justice can't be purchased at all, which is socialism.




No, the alternative would be to put my thoughts back into the form in which they were offered so that we may counter the substance in a way that is true to the scope in which they were shared. The first interruption into my posting, you seem to be already confused with regard to the scope of that which I'm trying to share with you.

So, I'll do that for you.


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Natural Citizenhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=5704273#post5704273)

If one reflects on this lawsuit and others that will certainly follow as the people introduce more of these citizens initiatives, it begs the question of the rule of law. Is justice something that is to be purchased without deliberation? And what of the courts and so called unbiased judges who dispense it? We know much of the revolving door that exists within these companies, the courts and government bodies. The phenomenon that we see with regard to these companies and major block/share holders (yet to be known) who use patent law to undermine the ability of the people to grow and eat what they want in a way that stimulates control of the food supply in their corrporate socialist/mercantilist favor could be said to be a direct contradiction of the old endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness gag. We like to think that America is a Republic but this is a phenomenon that only resides on paper it would seem.

But I digress. Is a debate for another day and I suppose that I ask it here given debate that we see in some recent postings from the evangelical community with regard to "life". At the moment it's important to focus on the subject here, which, of course, would be the peoples right to know what they consume. To participate in a genuine free market system where a mechanism for choice exists and freedom to choose establishes the winners and losers. Mercantilist infrastructure that we have at the moment in the way that was described here actually protects these industries from the free market. And spending $25 million from out of state to oppose a citizens initiative for a right to know and make an informed choice is demonstrative of this mercantilist model.



There. Now it's all back together again the way that it was meant to be shared. The substance of it is much different than that which you seem to be making it through random interruption and misinterpretation.

Please don't separate it. I'd appreciate it if you would read those thoughts again and respond in whole. Per your comments during interruption of my thought, I don't think you quite understand what I was saying there. An example would be that no place in there did I say that Monsanto is suing polluted farms. And I think it's rather disingenuous for you to compliment this misinterpretation with things like " please stop spreading the conspiracy theory about..."

As well, "Patented seeds do not prevent competition" is completely irrelevant to what I said. I'll assume that you simply don't understand what I was saying there and are responding in a way that conforms to a different debate that you may understand and would rather have. Please read it again and respond in whole. Good advice would be to place my thoughts in which you seem to disagree or lack an understanding into context with those previous responses from other posters for which it was itself premised upon.I was very clear in saying that "I suppose that I ask it here given debate that we see in some recent postings from the evangelical community with regard to "life".

Thanks.

I'll give you a pass on this and won't assume that these are the questions in whichyou were seeking answers conforming to our pre-requisite. I've made a note of those questions and placed them on the table over in the other thread.

[osan]

Cool story bro.

How about some evidence

1. campaigning is mercantilism
2. campaigning is not free speech
3. campaigning is blocking anybody from knowing anything



I am aware mercantilism protects people from competition, I am not convinced this is an example of it.

The discussion is not of "campaigning" in the general sense, but of a very particular application of the practice. Surely this must be obvious. Here, lobbyists campaign for or against very specific laws to protect their interests in ways that discourage competition both directly by stunting or compelling other business entities, or indirectly by repressing the consumers' ability to judge the desirability of products on the shelves.


"Free market" does not mean "free for all" where people, hiding behind the nonsense of the "corporate veil", are free to do whatever their morbidly distorted senses of competition dictate.

If we are going to have the evil of governMENT, primarily because we are too lazy, greedy, willfully ignorant, and timid to govern ourselves, then let us at least make the best of it. While perfection may not be attainable, we can do a damned sight better than what we now have. If we accept the premise that there is but one purpose of governMENT, which is the guaranty and protection of human rights, and we murderously certain that those placed into positions of public trust were held feet to the fires of Hell itself, 98% of the problems we experience today would be gone within five years.

Pursuant to that, corporations would lose all status, save as legal conventions by which a potentially ever changing group of owners of a set of assets set to some organized operational purpose. A "corporation" would become nothing more than a contractual specification to which the parties to ownership would agree and share in their respective contractual rights and responsibilities. That's it. Form one. Don't form one. No matter to anyone, including the temporal agents of governance. You will not, however, enjoy any special treatment and most definitely will not rest immune from the consequences of your actions, regardless of magnitude.

But that is not what we have. Therefore, if one is going to take advantage of the wholly nonsensical and I daresay criminal provisions of the relevant statutes, then by all means should corporations be compelled to label their food products in some gory detail in order that the consumer will be able to at least partly protect himself where governMENT steadfastly fails to do so, and indeed has a complicit hand in enabling the corporation in question to damage the consumer.

Were it otherwise, the consumer would be able to go directly after the parties responsible and those parties could potentially face the noose.

[Natural Citizen]

The discussion is not of "campaigning"

I don't think that PRB actually understood the scope of the posting that he/she took issue with there. And that's okay, I suppose. If that's actually what it is. I wonder sometimes because it seems like we want to hang onto our arguments regardless of irrelevance to the case being made. Is one thing to kind of clumsily bring ourselves up to speed with anothers points and to the extent that an understanding to agree or disagree may occur but it's quite another to remain content to run amok in a way that may serve more to make those points disappear from context all together. You know? It makes us want to kick ourselves as opposed to maybe asking ourselves what we can do better to work around the conundrum. Could be that the idea of a citizens initiative itself is confusing for some of us. I don't know.

[PRB]

The discussion is not of "campaigning" in the general sense, but of a very particular application of the practice. Surely this must be obvious.


No, it's not obvious to me.



Here, lobbyists campaign for or against very specific laws to protect their interests in ways that discourage competition both directly by stunting or compelling other business entities, or indirectly by repressing the consumers' ability to judge the desirability of products on the shelves.


Lobbyists are but people, what is with you people who think corporations and rich are not people and somehow they need to be held to a different standard of justice?



"Free market" does not mean "free for all" where people, hiding behind the nonsense of the "corporate veil", are free to do whatever their morbidly distorted senses of competition dictate.


Actually, that's exactly what it means. What do YOU think it means?



If we are going to have the evil of governMENT, primarily because we are too lazy, greedy, willfully ignorant, and timid to govern ourselves, then let us at least make the best of it. While perfection may not be attainable, we can do a damned sight better than what we now have. If we accept the premise that there is but one purpose of governMENT, which is the guaranty and protection of human rights, and we murderously certain that those placed into positions of public trust were held feet to the fires of Hell itself, 98% of the problems we experience today would be gone within five years.


By make the best of it, you mean use government to stop government?



Pursuant to that, corporations would lose all status, save as legal conventions by which a potentially ever changing group of owners of a set of assets set to some organized operational purpose. A "corporation" would become nothing more than a contractual specification to which the parties to ownership would agree and share in their respective contractual rights and responsibilities. That's it. Form one. Don't form one.


How exactly is that not already the case?

[PRB]

Were it otherwise, the consumer would be able to go directly after the parties responsible and those parties could potentially face the noose.

It seems as though this is your real issue. You're mad at corporations because they can't be hanged the same way people can, if they could, you'd be fine with what they do, is that right?

[libertarianinternational]

I'd rather they were just banned. My brother actually developed Hepatitis B after eating GMOs.

[invisible]

My brother actually developed Hepatitis B after eating GMOs.

Do tell. How did he conclusively document or prove that GMO food was the actual cause? That's a pretty hefty statement, and if he has conclusive proof, that would sure make for one hell of a lawsuit, as well as a good series of articles in the scientific and medical publications.

[Natural Citizen]

I'd rather they were just banned.

Maui just passed a citizens initiative to ban GMOs until they could be proven save for human consumption. These citizens votes not the law will be considered now because Monsanto and some others sued them and now a judge has blocked their newly voted law because it interferes with the profits of these companies. Maui is the home turf of these companies to experiment with these products because of Hawaii's year round weather. People would do well to better understand the TPP because this is exactly the model and not only are gmos being experimented here in America, soo too is the TPP itself. The sovereignty of these American citizens just got thrown out the window by a judge in favor of a corporations lawsuit that came because laws and the will of the people countradict a multi-national corporation's profit.



Maui County voters approved a temporary ban on GMO crop cultivation in a 50 to 48 percent vote. The state has become a battleground between biotech firms and food activists – it was the country’s first ever ballot initiative against global agricultural companies like Monsanto and Dow, which spent $8 million trying to defeat the measure.

Monsanto sues Hawaii county over GMO ban (http://rt.com/usa/205655-monsanto-dow-gmo-hawaii/)

Judge blocks Maui County from implementing GMO law (http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/judge-blocks-maui-county-from-implementing-gmo-law/article_229cdd9b-84f0-5a72-a444-b2c36d821b98.html)


HONOLULU • A federal judge said Friday that Maui County may not implement a new law banning the cultivation of genetically modified organisms until he considers arguments in a lawsuit against the measure.

Creve Coeur-based Monsanto Co. and a unit of Dow Chemical Co. sued the county last week to stop the law.

They argue that the law would harm the economy and their businesses.


So there you have it. A judge is considering whether the successful citizens initiative which succeeded and was passed by a majority vote and it's subsequent law is as important as the multi-national corporation's profits. In America.

What was that about the old endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness gag? Seems like we've repatriated that old line. Or someone or some thing has.

[Natural Citizen]

Wow! That's amazingly close to my projection! (post #128) Looks like I'm going to be even more accurate than I thought.

Looks like you hit the percentages right on the head, invisible. That's pretty good. I wouldn't imagine many more ballots will be added. Maybe some oddballs there and about. We ended up with over 11,000 contested ballots that are still out there and weren't ever remedied and I suppose that you recall my thought on those. Is unfortunate because I think they would have tipped the scale.

But you nailed it, though. Percentages likely won't officially change. $25 million buys a lot, I suppose.

Perhaps another day or another place. ;)



Yes Votes


741,607

49.85%




No Votes


746,099

50.15%

[donnay]

Flashback:

Judge Sides With Monsanto: Ridicules Farmers’ Right to Grow Food Without Fear, Contamination and Economic Harm
http://www.nationofchange.org/judge-sides-monsanto-ridicules-farmers-right-grow-food-without-fear-contamination-and-economic-harm-

[Natural Citizen]

Flashback:

Judge Sides With Monsanto: Ridicules Farmers’ Right to Grow Food Without Fear, Contamination and Economic Harm
http://www.nationofchange.org/judge-sides-monsanto-ridicules-farmers-right-grow-food-without-fear-contamination-and-economic-harm-

Did you see this?

TPP in America: Judge blocks County from implementing law that would harm corporate profit (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?463308-TPP-in-America-Judge-blocks-County-from-implementing-law-that-would-harm-corporate-profit&p=5705198&viewfull=1#post5705198)

As you can see, I'm a little heated. Reconsidering my activist efforts and alliances.

[angelatc]

I'd rather they were just banned. My brother actually developed Hepatitis B after eating GMOs.


No he didn't, but I am soooo going to copy and paste this comment in the pro-science group I frequent because it's the funniest thing I've read all week.

[angelatc]

why you no liek free speech and free market?

It always ignores that fact these these ballot initiatives are being driven by the organic lobbying organizations, who stand to lose their entire livelihoods if people figure out that there's no advantage to eating their over-priced designer foods.

"Oh noes! We haz to stop making food more nutritious for less money, 'cos then nobody will buy ourz! Quick - let's ban the competitions products...tell people lies, and scare them with stories we can't back up!"

[Natural Citizen]

I am soooo going to copy and paste this comment in the pro-science group.

Heh. You crack me up, woman.

[osan]

It seems as though this is your real issue. You're mad at corporations because they can't be hanged the same way people can, if they could, you'd be fine with what they do, is that right?

Troll?

Brain lesions?

I don't know and I don't care.

Trying to hold a rational conversation with you is like trying to herd cats, only herding cats makes more sense and is more profitable. You make no rational sense whatsoever. You draw the most wildly nonsequitur inferences such that I cannot imagine what you are thinking... or whether.

I will have to refrain from further wasting my time.

Have a nice day.

[Natural Citizen]

Troll?


I will have to refrain from further wasting my time.

Have a nice day.

Very good, osan. Show the way to go....

Some folks represent the depth of the movement well. So let them.

[invisible]

No he didn't, but I am soooo going to copy and paste this comment in the pro-science group I frequent because it's the funniest thing I've read all week.

It's a pretty hefty claim. I'd wait to see the actual proof before spreading it around as science. If it's actual scientific proof, he's got quite a scoop for the medical and scientific journals, as well as quite a lawsuit.

[invisible]

Looks like you hit the percentages right on the head, invisible. That's pretty good. I wouldn't imagine many more ballots will be added. Maybe some oddballs there and about. We ended up with over 11,000 contested ballots that are still out there and weren't ever remedied and I suppose that you recall my thought on those. Is unfortunate because I think they would have tipped the scale.

But you nailed it, though. Percentages likely won't officially change. $25 million buys a lot, I suppose.

Perhaps another day or another place. ;)



Yes Votes


741,607

49.85%




No Votes


746,099

50.15%





Sadly, I wish I hadn't been right on this. But it's certainly interesting that my projection was spot-on accurate.

[Natural Citizen]

Sadly, I wish I hadn't been right on this. But it's certainly interesting that my projection was spot-on accurate.

Yeah, that's good stuff. Useful stuff. It's always a plus when we're perfect in practice instead of practicing to be perfect, I always say. Helps to prepare us to get it done when we absolutely must. Heh...

[PRB]

Troll?

Brain lesions?

I don't know and I don't care.

Trying to hold a rational conversation with you is like trying to herd cats, only herding cats makes more sense and is more profitable. You make no rational sense whatsoever. You draw the most wildly nonsequitur inferences such that I cannot imagine what you are thinking... or whether.

I will have to refrain from further wasting my time.

Have a nice day.

You can just answer the question, or you can pretend like you're too smart to answer and pour the insults on me like I care. Too bad for you, you lost. (Because I said so, got a problem with that?)

[PRB]

It always ignores that fact these these ballot initiatives are being driven by the organic lobbying organizations


Yeah, but they're not corporations, so they're good people. Corporations & rich people are bad, poor peasants are good. Government is bad when it doesn't stand with the little guy. Only little guys are people, rich people are subhumans.



, who stand to lose their entire livelihoods if people figure out that there's no advantage to eating their over-priced designer foods.


Can't blame them for looking out for their own interests, it's just what any human being does, I can only refuse to eat their shit (no pun intended).



"Oh noes! We haz to stop making food more nutritious for less money, 'cos then nobody will buy ourz! Quick - let's ban the competitions products...tell people lies, and scare them with stories we can't back up!"

You know what's funny? Evil Monsanto hasn't spent money demonizing organic foods (or did I miss it?)

[Natural Citizen]

You know what's funny? Evil Monsanto hasn't spent money demonizing organic foods (or did I miss it?)

What you have to do is pay attention to things like the recent Foarm Bill. These industries like Monsanto and others use government processes for their dirty work.

This is just one of many discussions on the subject. There are more around here, I'm sure of it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?452660-FDA-To-Ban-Organic-Farming&p=5542114&viewfull=1#post5542114


After the passing of the recent farm bill that basically says that if you plant these gmos we'll give you the subsidies, and given the fact that farmers are beginning to understand that the "substantially equivalent" model they have been sold by agribusiness is complete hogwash it was obvious that the organic farms would come under attack with sudden regulation. Especially considering that a lot of the so called/self professed "statesmen" who claim to be against the nanny state were the bill's biggest beneficiaries who own the largest farms, and, of course, we should expect big agribusiness money to start lining these representatives and state's pockets soon as well since the farmers are waking up to the monopoly and this is understood to be a threat. Congressman Mike Pompeo sure was the beneficiary of some Industry money.



Also, I had linked to discussion on just that model earlier in this thread.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444117-Farmers-Abandoning-GMO-Seeds-Non-GMO-is-more-profitable&p=5494506&viewfull=1#post5494506


Yes but this thing that we're seeing from Koch Industires, Monsanto and Congressman Mike Popeo getting together to enforce industry backed legislation in order to disfranchise the citizens/states right of access to information regarding what they are putting into their bodies seems like blowback to the growing market opposition (globally now). Given the inability and/or lack of interest by our so called representatives in representing the people in favor of Industry, banks, corporations and every other too big to fail, I'd expect to see maneuvering for a requirement that farmers grow nothing but their genetically modified products. By introducing this industry backed legislation that voids the rights of citizens to access this kind of information, they have pretty much declared themselves to be completely against freedom. I doubt the'll stop at prohibiting labeling.

The recent Farm Bill was a clear indicator of this. After the passing of the recent farm bill that basically says that if you plant these gmos we'll give you the subsidies, and given the fact that farmers are beginning to understand that the "substantially equivalent" model they have been sold by agribusiness is complete hogwash it was obvious that the organic farms would come under attack with sudden regulation. Especially considering that a lot of the fake statesmen who claim to be against the nanny state were the bill's biggest beneficiaries who own the largest farms and of course, we should expect big agribusiness money to start lining these representatives and state's pockets soon as well since the farmers are waking up to the monopoly and this is understood to be a threat. Pompeo sure was the beneficiary of some Industry money.

It's predictable that not only organic farmers but citizens and states rights themselves would come under attack as we are seeing now with this Koch/Monsanto/Pompeo skullduggery.

[Natural Citizen]

Sadly, I wish I hadn't been right on this. But it's certainly interesting that my projection was spot-on accurate.

Oop. Almost.



Yes Votes


744,431

49.86%




No Votes


748,580

50.14%





One thing that I would just briefly add, invisible, is that the way that it works with this stuff is that the votes need to be certified. Counting them doesn't really mean anything until they are certified. And so what you see reported are what we call certified votes. They aren't considered a legit vote or added to the tally until they are certified. That said, there are still a lot of votes that aren't reported because they just aren't certified yet, and, really, we won't have a clear cut answer to the totals until the 24th of November. And, of course, that is almost a week out front of us.

[libertarianinternational]

No he didn't, but I am soooo going to copy and paste this comment in the pro-science group I frequent because it's the funniest thing I've read all week.

Science is the realm of the globalist elite. He understands his own body better than anyone else. I thought all libertarians supported that principle. He's eaten organic all his life, we grew up on a farm out in Kansas. He was over at his friend's house and she gave him standard Wal-Mart vegetables, one week later and he's got Hep-B. I don't know whether the disease is actually implanted in the vegetables or not, but there is definitely some sort of relationship between the disease and GMOs.

[PRB]

Science is the realm of the globalist elite. He understands his own body better than anyone else. I thought all libertarians supported that principle.


There's a difference between having the right to do what you want with your body regardless of whether you understanding it, and actually understanding it.



He's eaten organic all his life, we grew up on a farm out in Kansas. He was over at his friend's house and she gave him standard Wal-Mart vegetables, one week later and he's got Hep-B.


Because Hep B suddenly comes like that, one week before he was perfectly normal. He was monitoring his liver every day.



I don't know whether the disease is actually implanted in the vegetables or not


I can tell you it's not. I work for Monsanto and we don't implant Hep B in our crops, we kill people with direct poison efficiently, not slowly with diseases that'll benefit the medical pharma complex.



, but there is definitely some sort of relationship between the disease and GMOs.

Yes, because everybody gets diseases and eats GMOs.

[libertarianinternational]

There's a difference between having the right to do what you want with your body regardless of whether you understanding it, and actually understanding it.



Because Hep B suddenly comes like that, one week before he was perfectly normal. He was monitoring his liver every day.



I can tell you it's not. I work for Monsanto and we don't implant Hep B in our crops, we kill people with direct poison efficiently, not slowly with diseases that'll benefit the medical pharma complex.



Yes, because everybody gets diseases and eats GMOs.

You think Monsanto opposes big Pharma? Nope, they work hand in hand. Big Pharma lobbies on their behalf and profits in return when people get ill. Two wings of the same Big Science bird.

[PRB]

You think Monsanto opposes big Pharma? Nope, they work hand in hand. Big Pharma lobbies on their behalf and profits in return when people get ill. Two wings of the same Big Science bird.

You hate science, I get it. Now get your conspiracy theories straight.

[Natural Citizen]

You hate science, I get it. Now get your conspiracy theories straight.

This practice that we see from some of these mercantilist western industries is not science in any way. Cripes, one week they're doing their own private testing and the next week their working for the fda and approving their own so called research.There is no independent, time consuming, research. What a couple of folks do, and I think this is funny, is that they go around claiming to be pro-science in order to paint some kind of picture that others who disagree with them are anti-science. What they stimulate is the notion of corporate consumption models. That's not science in any way and I'd challenge either of you who play that game to a debate on the scientific method any day of the week. Real science. Well, I think there are only two of you who do this but it'd be a hoot to hear the scientific models that make you so pro-science and those who oppose you anti-science. Standing up on a political podium toasting and chugging super big gulps isn't science, btw. That's something else and we can get into that if'n you'd be so kind to whistle for dixie. I'm sure she's around.