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View Full Version : Steele: TIME calls Rand Paul most interesting man in politics, I call him most dangerous man




jct74
10-19-2014, 08:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYZ9C9kuSc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYZ9C9kuSc

givemeliberty2010
10-19-2014, 09:22 AM
I think we can see clear evidence that African-American voters care about criminal justice reform, but what evidence is there that Rand Paul's broader platform actually interests them, as opposed to him saying that they should care? Do we know that African-American voters care about non-interventionism, opposition to surveillance, economic freedom and so on?

I don't understand the idea of economic freedom zones. The last thing many black people, many other minorities and even many white people want is separate treatment based on demographic differences.

philipped
10-19-2014, 10:03 AM
I'm black, I'm under 30, I am not a paid GOP shill, and Rand is totally right. I hope Rand secures more black turnout in the Primary come that time. I don't care how much shade he's getting from anyone, it doesn't take away from the contributions the people I know are making to build the libertarian faction of the GOP. I am 100% living and breathing proof that Rand Paul's strategy of rebuilding and modernizing the Republican Party with NEW PEOPLE is REAL.

I guess I will be having to formulate this statement and build on it as time goes on...I have no problem with it tbh.

Crashland
10-19-2014, 10:10 AM
The voter ID thing, both sides are right. It is common sense to verify ID in order to vote. And, there is no credible evidence that in-person voter fraud exists to any significant degree. And, it would disproportionally affect black voters unless very careful measures are taken to make sure no eligible voters would be denied a ballot.

torchbearer
10-19-2014, 10:11 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10565023_683548285059326_1580053778366168079_n.jpg ?oh=edffe190b2e89edd5b6014b75440ebaf&oe=54F366F3&__gda__=1421817497_7740ba9d8b5431964bc205fa447312e 9

Freedom brings people together...

philipped
10-19-2014, 10:13 AM
Freedom brings people together...

When will people realize this??? lmao

acptulsa
10-19-2014, 10:16 AM
I think we can see clear evidence that African-American voters care about criminal justice reform, but what evidence is there that Rand Paul's broader platform actually interests them, as opposed to him saying that they should care? Do we know that African-American voters care about non-interventionism, opposition to surveillance, economic freedom and so on?

The truth cuts across every demographic. I've gotten the respect and interest of lesbians by explaining it fairly. It's getting easier to get people interested in the corruption, now that it feels like it's soaking up 90% of our GDP. Even among--especially, even--those who can't get some of it.


I don't understand the idea of economic freedom zones. The last thing many black people, many other minorities and even many white people want is separate treatment based on demographic differences.

When you can't get the whole country interested in doing the right thing, you get a locality interested in it and then you point to it and say, 'Here, look at what actually works.'

That has been a valid strategy since centuries before the term 'experiment with control group' came into being.

specsaregood
10-19-2014, 10:33 AM
HE'S (Randal) TOTALLY AGAINST WOMEN HAVING ANY CHOICE IN THEIR OWN LIVES.
HE'S (Randal) NOT GOING TO GET ANY YOUNG PEOPLE's VOTES.
-Howard Dean

Keep telling yourself that pal if it helps you sleep better at night.

givemeliberty2010
10-20-2014, 05:56 AM
The truth cuts across every demographic. I've gotten the respect and interest of lesbians by explaining it fairly. It's getting easier to get people interested in the corruption, now that it feels like it's soaking up 90% of our GDP. Even among--especially, even--those who can't get some of it.



When you can't get the whole country interested in doing the right thing, you get a locality interested in it and then you point to it and say, 'Here, look at what actually works.'

That has been a valid strategy since centuries before the term 'experiment with control group' came into being.Experiments with control groups have randomly chosen group members. It seems the groups for Paul are specifically chosen based on ethnicity. Isn't that discrimination?

jbauer
10-20-2014, 06:48 AM
The voter ID thing, both sides are right. It is common sense to verify ID in order to vote. And, there is no credible evidence that in-person voter fraud exists to any significant degree. And, it would disproportionally affect black voters unless very careful measures are taken to make sure no eligible voters would be denied a ballot.

I would like to know just one person who doesn't have an ID that would like to vote. How does someone live in today's society without a valid ID?

acptulsa
10-20-2014, 07:31 AM
Experiments with control groups have randomly chosen group members. It seems the groups for Paul are specifically chosen based on ethnicity. Isn't that discrimination?

The 'groups for Paul' choose themselves. That's the way republics work. Maybe you'd like Stalin to simplify things for you--and starve you and shoot your family too...

And the person in this very thread whom you're rudely ignoring is not alone, not on this board nor in this movement.

And I don't see anyone trying to chase him off. Do you?

Thinking people of every description are joining this movement, even if they are being told that neither this movement nor liberty are things their demographic should be interested in. And people wonder why the paid shills are calling Rand Paul 'dangerous'...

Uriah
10-20-2014, 07:49 AM
I would like to know just one person who doesn't have an ID that would like to vote. How does someone live in today's society without a valid ID?
One day my wife uncharacteristically left her purse in her car in plain view. The contents of which contained all of her valid forms of ID. Her window was smashed in and the purse was stolen. If this happened on or shortly before election day then she wouldn't be able to vote with the way some of these voter ID proposals are written.

invisible
10-20-2014, 08:28 AM
I would like to know just one person who doesn't have an ID that would like to vote. How does someone live in today's society without a valid ID?

I've done it for years. It's a huge hassle, believe me. I don't think I've shown an ID to anyone for like 15 years, at least. After real id came into play, I never renewed my driver's license when it expired, and refuse to do so until a repeal happens (here in OK, it's a matter of waiting until either a new Governor is elected or the Kaye Beach lawsuit finally goes through, which will probably be pretty much the same thing). Thousands of illegal immigrants live without an id.

jmdrake
10-20-2014, 11:27 AM
I think we can see clear evidence that African-American voters care about criminal justice reform, but what evidence is there that Rand Paul's broader platform actually interests them, as opposed to him saying that they should care? Do we know that African-American voters care about non-interventionism, opposition to surveillance, economic freedom and so on?

I don't understand the idea of economic freedom zones. The last thing many black people, many other minorities and even many white people want is separate treatment based on demographic differences.

Democrats in general are non interventionist even though the party leadership is pro war. There are still democrats who give Obama credit for "ending the war in Iraq". And why shouldn't they? Idiots in the GOP keep giving him "credit" for that (or "blame" in their eyes) based on the misguided notion that Obama "pulled us out early". The honest truth is that Obama didn't pull us out a day before the day Bush had negotiated us to go. On Syria and ISIS, only 35% of democrats thought Obama was being "too cautious" as opposed to 74% of republicans (http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/09/09/National-Politics/Polling/question_14539.xml?uuid=PvKU5jfWEeSgIx1h9_MaBQ). So rather than asking "Will blacks support non interventionism" you should be asking "Will enough traditional democratic voters cross over and support Rand to offset the rabid interventionism of typical republicans."

Democrats in general also have more opposition to surveillance than do republicans. Don't forget that it was Bush that brought us the unPatriot Act. Further many blacks remember the FBI spying on MLK Jr. and the NAACP. Yes there is a "reflexive" support among democrats for "all things Obama" but that's an aberration on the general trend. According to the Washington Post 70 percent of democrats and 77 percent of republicans do not approve of the NSA wiretapping (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/08/16/concern-over-nsa-privacy-violations-unites-democrats-and-republicans-poll-finds/). But when Bush was president 73 percent of democrats an only 50 percent of republicans were against Bush doing warrantless wiretaps. What does that tell us? While democratic opposition has remained roughly the same, republican opposition has grown sharply once Obama was president. Now maybe some of these republicans have had a true "come to Jesus" moment, but I suspect much, if not most, of the change is based solely on the fact that a democrat that they don't trust has the Whitehouse. I remember warning republicans back when Bush was grabbing all of this presidential power "Imagine if Hillary Clinton had that power." Those morons pretty much ignored me. So again, the problem is not "Can we find democrats who will support Rand against spying" but rather "will their support of Rand's position be enough to get them to cross over."

So really, the only question is whether sizable numbers will support Rand on economic issues. After all, Ron Paul drew sizable black support based on his opposition to the wars and support of civil liberties. Well....I posted a thread on this very issue not to long ago. I urge you to read it and comment on it. It's video from various black Chicago residents who are lamenting the fact that their economic position has gotten worse under Obama and who indicate a willingness to listen to "tea party" and free market ideas.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460812-Black-Chicago-residents-against-Obama-and-Rahm-Emmanuel

jmdrake
10-20-2014, 11:36 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYZ9C9kuSc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYZ9C9kuSc

I have to LOL at dufus Howard Dean's assertion that libertarianism = support for abortion. Hello? Earth to Dean? There is nothing "unlibertarian" about being concerned about the rights of women who haven't been born yet. And most liberals don't really care about a woman having a right over her own body. If they did they would be against drug laws.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwejQBIyjow

Working Poor
10-20-2014, 11:47 AM
I guess he is dangerous because they know who is behind him. If he don't win the nomination will there be hell to pay? If he does will it be because he sold out?

Spikender
10-20-2014, 12:21 PM
Dangerous to the elite?

I agree.

Xenliad
10-20-2014, 12:32 PM
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/511/991/3a5.jpg

GunnyFreedom
10-20-2014, 12:46 PM
Keep telling yourself that pal if it helps you sleep better at night.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjPTdJ2auj0

Crashland
10-20-2014, 04:41 PM
I would like to know just one person who doesn't have an ID that would like to vote. How does someone live in today's society without a valid ID?

Depending on who you ask, somewhere between 5-25% of black US citizens don't have a current/valid government-issued ID.
This Politifact article is relatively even-handed:
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2011/aug/10/marcia-fudge/rep-marcia-fudge-says-11-percent-eligible-voters-l

Anyway, if you don't have an ID, obtaining one can be difficult, because it often involves cost to you whether in the form of money (which you don't have), time (which you don't have), or transportation (which you don't have) to a specific place (which could be >50 miles depending on where you live). In order to get an ID you usually need certain other forms/documentation which in themselves may not be easy or free to obtain. Establishing proof of residency may not be easy if you don't frequently get mail addressed to you, or if you don't even have a home address. If you don't have a birth certificate on file it can be difficult to obtain one (just ask Obama :)) especially if you are not physically in the place you were born.

givemeliberty2010
10-20-2014, 07:36 PM
The 'groups for Paul' choose themselves. That's the way republics work. Maybe you'd like Stalin to simplify things for you--and starve you and shoot your family too...

And the person in this very thread whom you're rudely ignoring is not alone, not on this board nor in this movement.

And I don't see anyone trying to chase him off. Do you?

Thinking people of every description are joining this movement, even if they are being told that neither this movement nor liberty are things their demographic should be interested in. And people wonder why the paid shills are calling Rand Paul 'dangerous'...Choosing for themselves makes more sense. I wasn't aware of this part of Rand Paul's economic freedom zones plan. I'll look into it.

I've responded to everyone in this thread who has asked me a question or specifically responded to something I wrote (besides jmdrake, whose post I haven't gotten to yet).

givemeliberty2010
10-20-2014, 07:52 PM
Democrats in general are non interventionist even though the party leadership is pro war. There are still democrats who give Obama credit for "ending the war in Iraq". And why shouldn't they? Idiots in the GOP keep giving him "credit" for that (or "blame" in their eyes) based on the misguided notion that Obama "pulled us out early". The honest truth is that Obama didn't pull us out a day before the day Bush had negotiated us to go. On Syria and ISIS, only 35% of democrats thought Obama was being "too cautious" as opposed to 74% of republicans (http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/09/09/National-Politics/Polling/question_14539.xml?uuid=PvKU5jfWEeSgIx1h9_MaBQ). So rather than asking "Will blacks support non interventionism" you should be asking "Will enough traditional democratic voters cross over and support Rand to offset the rabid interventionism of typical republicans."

Democrats in general also have more opposition to surveillance than do republicans. Don't forget that it was Bush that brought us the unPatriot Act. Further many blacks remember the FBI spying on MLK Jr. and the NAACP. Yes there is a "reflexive" support among democrats for "all things Obama" but that's an aberration on the general trend. According to the Washington Post 70 percent of democrats and 77 percent of republicans do not approve of the NSA wiretapping (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/08/16/concern-over-nsa-privacy-violations-unites-democrats-and-republicans-poll-finds/). But when Bush was president 73 percent of democrats an only 50 percent of republicans were against Bush doing warrantless wiretaps. What does that tell us? While democratic opposition has remained roughly the same, republican opposition has grown sharply once Obama was president. Now maybe some of these republicans have had a true "come to Jesus" moment, but I suspect much, if not most, of the change is based solely on the fact that a democrat that they don't trust has the Whitehouse. I remember warning republicans back when Bush was grabbing all of this presidential power "Imagine if Hillary Clinton had that power." Those morons pretty much ignored me. So again, the problem is not "Can we find democrats who will support Rand against spying" but rather "will their support of Rand's position be enough to get them to cross over."

So really, the only question is whether sizable numbers will support Rand on economic issues. After all, Ron Paul drew sizable black support based on his opposition to the wars and support of civil liberties. Well....I posted a thread on this very issue not to long ago. I urge you to read it and comment on it. It's video from various black Chicago residents who are lamenting the fact that their economic position has gotten worse under Obama and who indicate a willingness to listen to "tea party" and free market ideas.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460812-Black-Chicago-residents-against-Obama-and-Rahm-EmmanuelThese are good points. My response to the thread about black Chicago voters is that individual people do not necessarily represent a voting bloc. Time will tell for both the voting bloc and whether, when time comes to vote, the black Chicago voters will show their disapproval of Obama. to whatever extent they disagree.

eleganz
10-21-2014, 03:27 AM
There should be a website with a counter that registers/counts all of the minorities that Rand Paul has effectively brought into the GOP or it's ideals. Nothing is better than having tangible proof of your strategy working.

www.randpauloutreach.com <--or something...

otherone
10-21-2014, 06:32 AM
Depending on who you ask, somewhere between 5-25% of black US citizens don't have a current/valid government-issued ID.
This Politifact article is relatively even-handed:
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2011/aug/10/marcia-fudge/rep-marcia-fudge-says-11-percent-eligible-voters-l

Anyway, if you don't have an ID, obtaining one can be difficult, because it often involves cost to you whether in the form of money (which you don't have), time (which you don't have), or transportation (which you don't have) to a specific place (which could be >50 miles depending on where you live). In order to get an ID you usually need certain other forms/documentation which in themselves may not be easy or free to obtain. Establishing proof of residency may not be easy if you don't frequently get mail addressed to you, or if you don't even have a home address. If you don't have a birth certificate on file it can be difficult to obtain one (just ask Obama :)) especially if you are not physically in the place you were born.


Assuming a black man does not have ID is like assuming he likes fried chicken and purple drank.

jmdrake
10-22-2014, 05:13 AM
These are good points. My response to the thread about black Chicago voters is that individual people do not necessarily represent a voting bloc. Time will tell for both the voting bloc and whether, when time comes to vote, the black Chicago voters will show their disapproval of Obama. to whatever extent they disagree.

Perception is reality especially in politics. Or more importantly, perception makes its own reality. Imagine if Mitt Romney, instead of talking about the "47 percent who don't pay taxes" and declaring up front "our message will not connect" with them, had actually tried to make a connection? Imagine if he had sought out these voters who are now saying "We no longer believe the government creates wealth"? That whole line of attack that was used against him never would have materialized. There is such a thing as a self fulfilling prophecy. And this isn't just about race. It's about class. And it's about finding a way to articulate your message to people for whom the American dream is currently the American nightmare. Obama connected with working class white people and that's why he's president. I remember right after the election being at my sons' karate class. The class was in rural Tennessee. I overheard a couple of "good old boy" parents talking about the election. One asked "Do you think Obama will be able to turn the economy around?" The other replied "I sure hope so." That is why Obama was elected president. He connected. McCain did not. Romney did not. If republicans keep blaming voters for their losses then they deserve to lose.

jmdrake
10-22-2014, 05:47 AM
I would like to know just one person who doesn't have an ID that would like to vote. How does someone live in today's society without a valid ID?

That's a damn shame. I was listening to talk radio where a woman called in and said "In my town I have to have an ID even if I'm not driving because it the car gets pulled over the police may asking me for it. So why not have an ID for voting?" My objection vote ID laws isn't race. It's the fact that they are further codifying police state USA! And they don't get at the real issue of voter fraud which is electronic voting machines.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_rMpQKqZhM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4aKOhbbK9E

philipped
10-22-2014, 09:09 AM
Perception is reality especially in politics. Or more importantly, perception makes its own reality. Imagine if Mitt Romney, instead of talking about the "47 percent who don't pay taxes" and declaring up front "our message will not connect" with them, had actually tried to make a connection? Imagine if he had sought out these voters who are now saying "We no longer believe the government creates wealth"? That whole line of attack that was used against him never would have materialized. There is such a thing as a self fulfilling prophecy. And this isn't just about race. It's about class. And it's about finding a way to articulate your message to people for whom the American dream is currently the American nightmare. Obama connected with working class white people and that's why he's president. I remember right after the election being at my sons' karate class. The class was in rural Tennessee. I overheard a couple of "good old boy" parents talking about the election. One asked "Do you think Obama will be able to turn the economy around?" The other replied "I sure hope so." That is why Obama was elected president. He connected. McCain did not. Romney did not. If republicans keep blaming voters for their losses then they deserve to lose.

This is a good point to make, Economic freedom zones;redeem act with mandatory minimums;flat taxes;less intervention in foreign affairs;more transparency-S.201 can all be seen as proof that he has ideas that could do well for all Americans if applied across the board. We just gotta execute with finesse by still showing fair and objective articles, videos whether new or old (Kentucky Tonight) and transcend an election with pictures, phrases and sayings like Obama did in 2012 to ensure that it can reach out and be something acceptable to a majority of Americans. Very optimistic about the future of Rand's position in the GOP.

KurtBoyer25L
10-22-2014, 12:00 PM
The voter ID thing, both sides are right. It is common sense to verify ID in order to vote. And, there is no credible evidence that in-person voter fraud exists to any significant degree. And, it would disproportionally affect black voters unless very careful measures are taken to make sure no eligible voters would be denied a ballot.

The weird part is that there is so much demagoguery on both sides of this issue, and yet you rarely hear anyone discuss the specifics. At every turn, there's a cynical pro- or anti-voice that takes over.

HOW exactly are eligible voters being denied votes? "They almost never are," says Ms. Republican. Okay, but surely it has happened. If it happened once, how?

HOW are names of deceased people able to vote for politicians? "It's rare these days," says Mr. Democrat. Okay, but if I were a corrupt mayor who hates marijuana smokers, and I'm trying to rig an election with corpses to get Gov. Hickenlooper another term, what would my methods be exactly? Are people paid off at the clerk level? Can citizens vote "for" other citizens or mail in votes from dead folks?

Perhaps Rand's opportunity is that everyone (including myself) seems pretty ignorant on the specifics of how fraud or suppression occurs. If he steps forward with a proposal for a law that includes some common-sense safeguards on both sides and addresses the nuts & bolts of voting, who knows?

jct74
10-22-2014, 04:44 PM
here's some more recent discussion of Rand Paul on MSNBC



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqaUjbxr0lg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCZcLPL9Lp4

Crashland
10-22-2014, 05:10 PM
Assuming a black man does not have ID is like assuming he likes fried chicken and purple drank.

Who said anything about assuming a black man does not have an ID? We are talking about the aggregate. Any law which will disproportionately affect people in difficult economic circumstances will also disproportionately affect the black community, because of the demographics. It is empirically demonstrated that the percentage of black citizens do not have IDs is higher than the percentage of white citizens who do not have IDs.