PDA

View Full Version : You knew it was coming - Krauthammer: Ebola vs. civil liberties




Anti Federalist
10-17-2014, 05:33 AM
By all means, lets surrender even more liberty to the government that has been making such a bollocks of this situation.

The only thing I would agree on is the flight restrictions, this is nothing new in the world, the maritime world has been dealing with contagion brought by ships through a custom know as "pratique" or "Free Pratique" that restricts a vessel and its crew from entering a port unless it is free from contagious diseases.

This has been in place for, quite literally, centuries now.



Charles Krauthammer: Ebola vs. civil liberties

http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/columns/charles-krauthammer/charles-krauthammer-ebola-vs-civil-liberties/article_cffa7f8f-4c20-5d93-8d48-f3c883573e84.html

Unnervingly, the U.S. public health services remain steps behind the Ebola virus. Contact tracing is what we do, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Tom Frieden assured the nation. It will stop the epidemic “in its tracks.” And yet nurses Nina Pham and Amber Vinson, who developed Ebola, were not even among the 48 contacts that the CDC was initially following.

Nor were any of the doctors and nurses who treated the “index patient,” Thomas Duncan. No one even had a full list of caregivers.

The other reassurance was: Not to worry. We know what we’re doing. We have protocols. When, however, we got the first Ebola transmission in the U.S., it was blamed on a “breach in protocol.”

Translation: “Don’t blame us. The nurse screwed up.” The nurses’ union was not amused. Frieden had to walk that back the next day, saying he didn’t mean to blame anyone.

Frieden had said that “the care of Ebola can be done safely, but it is hard to do it safely.” Meaning: In theory, it’s easy; in practice, very dangerous. Unfortunately, that’s not what he said on Day One.

These missteps raise questions of competence, candor and false confidence. But the problem is deeper. And it rests not in our doctors but in ourselves.

In the face of a uniquely dangerous threat, we Americans have trouble recalibrating our traditional (and laudable) devotion to individual rights and civil liberties. That is the fundamental reason we’ve been so slow in getting serious about Ebola. Consider:

1. Privacy.

Pham’s identity was initially withheld. In normal circumstances, privacy deserves absolute respect. But these are not normal circumstances. We’re talking about a possible epidemic by an unseen pathogen that kills 70 percent of its victims. Contact tracing is the key to stopping it, we’ve been told. What faster way to alert anyone who might have had contact with Pham than releasing her name? Why lose 24 hours during which people have to guess if they’d had contact with someone carrying the virus?

2. Quarantine.

When Duncan was first hospitalized, the CDC said it would locate his contacts and check regularly for symptoms. For the secondary and tertiary contacts this made sense. But not for those in the inner “concentric circle.” They had had close contact with Duncan and were living in an apartment requiring massive decontamination. They should have been quarantined immediately.

Yet initially they were not. In fact, the word quarantine was not uttered by a single authority during the first news conference revealing Duncan’s illness.

It’s understandable. Quarantine is the ultimate violation of civil liberties. Having committed no crime, having done no wrong, you are sentenced to house arrest or banishment. It’s unfair. It’s, well, un-American. But when an epidemic threatens, we do it because we must.

3. Evacuation.

Why have we been treating Ebola patients at their local hospital? This is insane. They don’t have the expertise or the training. They will make mistakes — as we’ve now seen repeatedly at Texas Health Presbyterian.

Besides, training and equipping every hospital in America to treat this rare disease would be ridiculously expensive and 99 percent wasted. Every Ebola patient should be evacuated to a specialized regional isolation center, such as the ones in Atlanta, Omaha or Bethesda.

Not because these facilities possess some unique treatment. There is no treatment. But they know how to prevent contagion. Local hospitals don’t. It took 15 days and Amber Vinson to wake the authorities up to this obvious reality.

4. Travel bans.

British Airways has already canceled all flights to the affected countries in West Africa. We haven’t. A couple more cases of imported Ebola and we will.

Why are we waiting? The CDC argues that a travel ban would stop the flow of medical assistance to West Africa. This is silly. Simply make an exception for health care workers. They apply to federal authorities, who charter their flights (or use military aircraft already headed there) and monitor their movements until 21 days after their return home. Done.

President Obama, in his messianic period, declared that choosing between security and liberty was a false choice. On the contrary. It is the eternal dilemma of every free society. Politics is the very process of finding some equilibrium between these two competing values.

Regarding terrorism, we’ve developed a fairly reasonable balance. But it took time. With Ebola, we don’t have time. Viruses don’t wait. The sooner we reset the balance — the sooner we get serious — the safer we will be.

Spikender
10-17-2014, 06:18 AM
It’s understandable. Quarantine is the ultimate violation of civil liberties. Having committed no crime, having done no wrong, you are sentenced to house arrest or banishment. It’s unfair. It’s, well, un-American. But when an epidemic threatens, we do it because we must.

We do what we must... because... we can.

Occam's Banana
10-17-2014, 08:42 AM
Charles Krauthammer hates us for our freedom ....

Cleaner44
10-17-2014, 08:55 AM
Its time for a "War on Ebola®"

This new infectious terrorism must be stopped. Hell we now have an Ebola Czar (one can only wonder what that job pays). We probably should purchase some new type of Bearcat and deck out some storm troopers in hazmat assault gear. If we fail to confront the evil Ebola head on, it will only become emboldened and get more aggressive. Obviously this means we need to send troops to Africa, because it is better to fight Ebola over there than over here.

cajuncocoa
10-17-2014, 09:00 AM
Take my civil liberties, please!! Just keep me safe!! :rolleyes:

RonPaulIsGreat
10-17-2014, 09:15 AM
Actually, I think the gov, does not want to do any restrictions. The ebola threat, at present only threatens the economy for no gain otherwise. So, if they start quarantining people against their will etc.... the perception will be ebola is an even greater threat, and the consequence of that is less economic activity. The economy is already being propped up with every single artificial support the gov has, and is still teetering. A few months of pandemic scare, will send the retail sales into the gutter, along with restaurants and entertainment spending(at least bricks and mortar).

I think the last thing the government wants to do is quarantine, they have nothing to gain from it. If you start seeing "extreme" action, I think that will mean they know something you don't at that point, as in most likely it is more contagious than previous thought, or airborne, etc....

But I'll self quarantine if it keeps spreading (I think most people will to the extent possible), I have enough food in here to last for months if necessary, maybe those canned yams will get eaten yet!!!

AuH20
10-17-2014, 09:16 AM
Actually, I think the gov, does not want to do any restrictions. The ebola threat, at present only threatens the economy for no gain otherwise. So, if they start quarantining people against their will etc.... the perception will be ebola is an even greater threat, and the consequence of that is less economic activity. The economy is already being propped up with every single artificial support the gov has, and is still teetering. A few months of pandemic scare, will send the retail sales into the gutter, along with restaurants and entertainment spending(at least bricks and mortar).

I think the last thing the government wants to do is quarantine, they have nothing to gain from it. If you start seeing "extreme" action, I think that will mean they know something you don't at that point, as in most likely it is more contagious than previous thought, or airborne, etc....

But I'll self quarantine if it keeps spreading (I think most people will to the extent possible), I have enough food in here to last for months if necessary, maybe those canned yams will get eaten yet!!!

Nothing will be done until a congress critter's family member contracts it. Then we may see some preventative measures.

specsaregood
10-17-2014, 09:20 AM
Take my civil liberties, please!! Just keep me safe!! :rolleyes:

I don't know about you; but I feel safer already just knowing that somebody like Krauthammer is thinking of ways to make me safe.

donnay
10-17-2014, 10:30 AM
Dropping the [Kraut]hammer on liberties.

TaftFan
10-17-2014, 12:08 PM
We need to stop Ebola from spreading in the U.S. precisely so that civil liberties are protected. If this becomes a pandemic, we will be under martial law.

Brian4Liberty
10-17-2014, 12:20 PM
Its time for a "War on Ebola®"

This new infectious terrorism must be stopped. Hell we now have an Ebola Czar (one can only wonder what that job pays). We probably should purchase some new type of Bearcat and deck out some storm troopers in hazmat assault gear. If we fail to confront the evil Ebola head on, it will only become emboldened and get more aggressive. Obviously this means we need to send troops to Africa, because it is better to fight Ebola over there than over here.

We will need a new name for these biohazard containment special forces. How about Imperial Sardaukar?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gaHbxWQwG4

donnay
10-17-2014, 12:34 PM
We need to stop Ebola from spreading in the U.S. precisely so that civil liberties are protected. If this becomes a pandemic, we will be under martial law.

Which is precisely what the officials want! I cannot understand why some people cannot see this?

Working Poor
10-17-2014, 12:48 PM
I think all air travel should be stopped to countries that are having big outbreaks of Ebola. I am pretty sure the air crews are not happy about flying into those countries. Who would want to fly across the ocean in close quarters with someone who potentially has Ebola? I would not want to that's for sure.

Kotin
10-17-2014, 01:08 PM
these guys foam at the mouth for any and I mean ANY opportunity to treat everyone like property

Feeding the Abscess
10-17-2014, 03:24 PM
Wanna know how I knew this was coming?

AF and others on this very board were calling for travel bans and showed sympathy towards quarantines.

Sorry, AF, I love you, but you aren't getting a pass on this one. You're part of the problem this time.

Anti Federalist
10-17-2014, 03:40 PM
Wanna know how I knew this was coming?

AF and others on this very board were calling for travel bans and showed sympathy towards quarantines.

Sorry, AF, I love you, but you aren't getting a pass on this one. You're part of the problem this time.

A few simple and relatively unobtrusive steps would have prevented this whole mess.

Now, if this thing even comes close to the levels of what is happening in West Africa, Boobus will be willing to surrender everything at the feet of the state, just to try and keep himself safe.

A ship's captain, when arriving in foreign port, must certify that the passengers and crew are not carrying a contagious disease.

Like I posted in my OP, this has been custom, or "protocol" for hundreds of years.

I fail to see how implementing something similar for air travel, or blocking incoming flights or passengers from "hot zones", is quite so bad given the situation.

Honestly, what would you suggest?

Ignoring it won't make it better, like I said, let just 100 people die from this, and Boobus will freak the fuck out and it will be, no shit, "hot" martial law, FEMA camps and tanks in the streets

TaftFan
10-17-2014, 03:47 PM
Wanna know how I knew this was coming?

AF and others on this very board were calling for travel bans and showed sympathy towards quarantines.

Sorry, AF, I love you, but you aren't getting a pass on this one. You're part of the problem this time.

I have no problem with legitimate quarantines. I would like to see them administered by sheriffs with a doctors note in order to check abuse.

I've heard arguments made by libertarians for and against them. The argument against them was not convincing. I forget what article it was I read, but it was suggested that the "free market" could handle people with infectious diseases. The idea was basically that some organization would inform businesses to be on the lookout for an infected individual so that they could turn the individual away. This simply isn't practical. You would have to have a gate keeper at each business, who might become infected themselves. It also doesn't work if the person is walking on the streets or is wearing a disguise.

Feeding the Abscess
10-24-2014, 11:22 PM
A few simple and relatively unobtrusive steps would have prevented this whole mess.

Now, if this thing even comes close to the levels of what is happening in West Africa, Boobus will be willing to surrender everything at the feet of the state, just to try and keep himself safe.

A ship's captain, when arriving in foreign port, must certify that the passengers and crew are not carrying a contagious disease.

Like I posted in my OP, this has been custom, or "protocol" for hundreds of years.

I fail to see how implementing something similar for air travel, or blocking incoming flights or passengers from "hot zones", is quite so bad given the situation.

Honestly, what would you suggest?

Ignoring it won't make it better, like I said, let just 100 people die from this, and Boobus will freak the fuck out and it will be, no shit, "hot" martial law, FEMA camps and tanks in the streets

Because Boobus will freak out, let's call for what Boobus would call for before Boobus does it. Because Boobus is an idiot and we are smart.

People are poor, homeless or one incident away from it, and hungry. Children go hungry every day. In America. Millions of children are fed only because there are government programs in place to feed them.

Oh, you're against welfare? Honestly, what would you suggest, then?

Replace your argument with welfare, as I did, or terrorism, as the media and government have been over ISIS, and your faulty logic should be obvious to you. Not only does this logic give sanction to the State and everything it does, it's far worse; it ascribes positive value to whatever the State does. There is little more you could do to cripple your positions against government than what you've done here.

You should argue for privatization of airline security (and the industry as a whole, but this issue is more directly tied to security). In a free society, airlines would very likely have strict controls and protocols on who can fly and for what reason they can do so. Why? Because if they fuck it up, it's their ass on the line, and the chances of one airline's error bringing everything down is lower than the chances of one bureaucratic entity managing to bring systemic failure to fruition.


I've heard arguments made by libertarians for and against them. The argument against them was not convincing. I forget what article it was I read, but it was suggested that the "free market" could handle people with infectious diseases. The idea was basically that some organization would inform businesses to be on the lookout for an infected individual so that they could turn the individual away. This simply isn't practical. You would have to have a gate keeper at each business, who might become infected themselves.

Because you can't conceive of how a market based security system could work to prevent epidemics, they can't happen. I'm glad that's cleared up and solved! That's rather presumptuous; that because you can't think of a workable solution, that nobody else in the world could.

Hint: airlines would have a gate keeper and likely much more in a free society, a society that required airlines provide their own security rather than have the State do everything for them.


It also doesn't work if the person is walking on the streets or is wearing a disguise.

And government solutions can magically avoid this somehow? Do they have magic transmitters that dissipate disguises on sight? Do these gatekeepers have magic DNA that bounces Ebola and other infectious diseases off their bodies (remember, your argument against a libertarian solution was that gatekeepers could contract diseases)? Short of literally stopping the entire world in its tracks, there's no way to stop someone from traveling from one area of land to the next. Let alone have the people stopping the infected somehow not be exposed to the virus, which in that case would require another set of gatekeepers. And so on.

Oh, and remember that Amber Vinson called the CDC, and told them she treated Thomas Duncan and had symptoms that may have been Ebola? Yeah, they said she was fine. Good luck getting that bureaucracy to shut down the entire world when they can't even manage a person who calls them and offers up that she might have an infectious disease.

Have you even thought your position through?