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Matt Collins
10-04-2014, 08:56 AM
Interesting perspective here.... everyone should take a few minutes and watch / listen to this:


http://www.cato.org/multimedia/events/republican-partys-civil-war-will-freedom-win

Keith and stuff
10-04-2014, 01:13 PM
The book that the talk is about is The Atlas Society's "The Republican Party's Civil War" by Edward Hudgins. It is an interesting book. The books isn't very big either :)

It was discussed at the New Hampshire Liberty Forum.

Edward Hudgins, formerly director of regulatory studies for the Cato Institute and editor of Regulation magazine, is an expert on the regulation of space and transportation, pharmaceuticals, and labor. He served as a senior economist for the Joint Economic Committee of the U.S. Congress and was both deputy director for economic policy studies and director of the Center for International Economic Growth at the Heritage Foundation. He has testified on many occasions before Congress.

Ed's opinion writing has been published in the Wall Street Journal, Houston Chronicle, USA Today, Philadelphia Inquirer, Journal of Commerce, Aviation Week & Space Technology, among other publications.

He is the editor of Freedom to Trade: Refuting the New Protectionism, Space: The Free Market Frontier and two books on postal service privatization. His latest collection is entitled An Objectivist Secular Reader.

Ed has appeared on NBC's Dateline NBC, National Public Radio, PBS, Fox News Channel, CNN, MSNBC and Voice of America. Hudgins has a bachelor's degree from the University of Maryland, a master's from American University, and a doctorate from Catholic University in political philosophy. He has taught at universities in the United States and in Germany. He served as Washington director and then executive director of The Atlas Society before taking up his current positions.

Nashua, NH
Sunday, February 23 10:00am
The GOP Civil War: Will Freedom Win?

RonZeplin
10-04-2014, 01:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRyl6aSmBBg

Brett85
10-04-2014, 05:02 PM
I really don't like the Cato/Reason brand of libertarianism at all. They seem to be pretty anti religion and socially liberal, and neither are really required to be a libertarian. I'm much more in line with the Ron Paul/Rand Paul/Justin Amash brand of libertarianism. They believe in freedom but aren't antagonistic towards people of faith and support some socially conservative policies such as banning abortion and allowing prayer in schools.

Matt Collins
10-04-2014, 05:57 PM
I really don't like the Cato/Reason brand of libertarianism at all. They seem to be pretty anti religion and socially liberal, and neither are really required to be a libertarian. I'm much more in line with the Ron Paul/Rand Paul/Justin Amash brand of libertarianism. They believe in freedom but aren't antagonistic towards people of faith and support some socially conservative policies such as banning abortion and allowing prayer in schools.Neither Reason or the Cato Institute are completely monolithic or homogeneous....

Vanguard101
10-04-2014, 08:34 PM
I really don't like the Cato/Reason brand of libertarianism at all. They seem to be pretty anti religion and socially liberal, and neither are really required to be a libertarian. I'm much more in line with the Ron Paul/Rand Paul/Justin Amash brand of libertarianism. They believe in freedom but aren't antagonistic towards people of faith and support some socially conservative policies such as banning abortion and allowing prayer in schools.

What are you talking about???? If anything, it's the social libertarians and ancaps that are anti religion.

Brett85
10-04-2014, 08:43 PM
What are you talking about???? If anything, it's the social libertarians and ancaps that are anti religion.

Tom Woods is the most prominent ancap that I know of, and he's deeply religious. I believe Lew Rockwell is as well.

Christian Liberty
10-04-2014, 08:49 PM
I really don't like the Cato/Reason brand of libertarianism at all. They seem to be pretty anti religion and socially liberal, and neither are really required to be a libertarian. I'm much more in line with the Ron Paul/Rand Paul/Justin Amash brand of libertarianism. They believe in freedom but aren't antagonistic towards people of faith and support some socially conservative policies such as banning abortion and allowing prayer in schools.

Are there any so called libertarians who want to ban prayer in public schools? Or are you just talking about teacher led prayers?

Public schools should be abolished. Short of that, the daily religious ceremony known as the "pledge of allegiance" should be removed. I'd be OK with that religious ceremony being replaced with allowing each student to pray to whatever God they believe in.

Tom Woods is the most prominent ancap that I know of, and he's deeply religious. I believe Lew Rockwell is as well.

I don't know how hardcore he is about it, but Rockwell is a Catholic. I know Tom Woods, like Judge Nap, attend Latin Mass so they are traditionalist Catholics. Rockwell certainly isn't anti-religion.

In my experience "moderate" libertarians tend to be more socially liberal. An-caps are generally WAY more focused on hating the State than hating religion even if they themselves aren't religious. And then you have guys like Kevin Craig who are ultra-religious and want to abolish the State for predominately religious reasons.

Brett85
10-04-2014, 08:51 PM
Are there any so called libertarians who want to ban prayer in public schools? Or are you just talking about teacher led prayers?

I don't know if there are or not, but I've seen a lot of self described libertarians argue in favor of a "strict separation between church and state." I believe that everyone should be allowed to pray in public schools, both students and teachers.

Tywysog Cymru
10-04-2014, 09:24 PM
In my experience "moderate" libertarians tend to be more socially liberal.

Some of the moderates think that Ron Paul is too extreme and wouldn't support him.

twomp
10-05-2014, 09:35 AM
I don't know if there are or not, but I've seen a lot of self described libertarians argue in favor of a "strict separation between church and state." I believe that everyone should be allowed to pray in public schools, both students and teachers.

Isn't praying like in your head? Kind of like thinking? How do they stop people from thinking? The fact that you say that teachers should lead their students in prayer is stupid. What if the teacher is muslim? How would you feel about that? Pray all you want in private school, it's your money but if teachers are allowed to lead prayer with my tax dollars, I would be pissed.

FindLiberty
10-05-2014, 02:01 PM
I will watch/listen it...

dillo
10-05-2014, 10:56 PM
I really don't like the Cato/Reason brand of libertarianism at all. They seem to be pretty anti religion and socially liberal, and neither are really required to be a libertarian. I'm much more in line with the Ron Paul/Rand Paul/Justin Amash brand of libertarianism. They believe in freedom but aren't antagonistic towards people of faith and support some socially conservative policies such as banning abortion and allowing prayer in schools.

separation of church and state isn't anti-religion. Religion should be no part of a government. As for prayer in school, what do you want to happen? As in what would be the correct way to have it in your mind?

specsaregood
10-05-2014, 11:01 PM
separation of church and state isn't anti-religion. Religion should be no part of a government. As for prayer in school, what do you want to happen? As in what would be the correct way to have it in your mind?

the only way you could have "religion" as no part of government is to only allow atheists to work in government or vote.

As for pray in school? how about allowing it and not forbidding it. allowing it to happen is not the same as endorsing it.

dillo
10-05-2014, 11:16 PM
the only way you could have "religion" as no part of government is to only allow atheists to work in government or vote.

As for pray in school? how about allowing it and not forbidding it. allowing it to happen is not the same as endorsing it.

Considering that non-atheists wrote the constitution and yet some advocated the church of state seems to disprove your strawman argument that the only way to achieve a religion free government is to hire all atheists. How about a government that doesn't push a christian agenda and is impartial from religion. I have zero problem for people praying in school, I just dont want public schools requiring it or endorsing it.

NewRightLibertarian
10-05-2014, 11:16 PM
Remember that it was CATO that tried to sabotage Ron Paul's presidential campaigns by promoting vicious smears about him when it counted.

specsaregood
10-05-2014, 11:23 PM
Considering that non-atheists wrote the constitution and yet some advocated the church of state seems to disprove your strawman argument that the only way to achieve a religion free government is to hire all atheists.

I see no strawman in my argument. You said, "Religion should be no part of a government.". One's religion affects their thinking and their behavior. So the only way you could have religion be no part of government is to forbid those who have a religion from taking part in it. I dunno what your references to who wrote the constitution has to do with anything.



How about a government that doesn't push a christian agenda and is impartial from religion. I have zero problem for people praying in school, I just dont want public schools requiring it or endorsing it.
I don't want them requiring it or endorsing it either. I grew up non-Christian in a red state, in a christian area, going to public schools and I don't recall any problems growing up with the schools and any "Christian agenda". The schools were not anti-religion in anyway and were actually very accommodating to different beliefs.

Brett85
10-06-2014, 06:47 AM
Isn't praying like in your head? Kind of like thinking? How do they stop people from thinking? The fact that you say that teachers should lead their students in prayer is stupid. What if the teacher is muslim? How would you feel about that? Pray all you want in private school, it's your money but if teachers are allowed to lead prayer with my tax dollars, I would be pissed.

I support the 1st Amendment and freedom of speech. Just because I think that something should be allowed doesn't necessarily mean that I endorse it. I wouldn't necessarily like the idea of having a Muslim school teacher pray to Allah in front of the classroom, but I don't think there would be anything unconstitutional about it, so I wouldn't be in favor of filing a lawsuit to throw that teacher in prison for exercising their first amendment rights.

jmdrake
10-06-2014, 08:15 AM
Neither Reason or the Cato Institute are completely monolithic or homogeneous....

No. But this particular speaker seemed anti religion. His view on those who don't want the GOP to back gay marriage? "Let em leave." Ummmm...okay. Why not take the GunnyFreedom approach of getting the government out of marriage altogether? Really, if the priority is smaller government, then actually push consistently for smaller government. The recent cases of Christian businesses being sued by states for not participating in gay weddings shows where this is headed. The CRA is not going to be repealed. Sexual preference will eventually become a protected class. Conservative Christians are going to increasingly find themselves being sued for being themselves. Christian university you don't want to allow gay couples to move into your married student housing? You're losing your tax exempt status. Church owned daycare doesn't want Johnny who wants to be called "Jill" to use the little girl's room? You're losing your license. Christian talk show host condemns gay lifestyle? FCC, which is now considering banning "Washington Redskins" as "offensive" will step in and say "No hate speech over the public airwaves." Marriage can be "equalized" in a way that doesn't open the door to state sponsored persecution of people who don't agree. And that's by getting the government out of marriage.

jmdrake
10-06-2014, 08:20 AM
I don't know if there are or not, but I've seen a lot of self described libertarians argue in favor of a "strict separation between church and state." I believe that everyone should be allowed to pray in public schools, both students and teachers.

Even the ACLU supports voluntary prayer in public schools.

https://www.aclu.org/religion-belief/religion-and-schools

Most people don't get that because laws mandating "voluntary prayer" have been struck down. But usually those laws involve time being set aside specifically to pray. That said, many school administrators, who themselves don't understand the law, ban all prayer "just to be safe."

NewRightLibertarian
10-06-2014, 08:57 AM
No. But this particular speaker seemed anti religion. His view on those who don't want the GOP to back gay marriage? "Let em leave." Ummmm...okay. Why not take the GunnyFreedom approach of getting the government out of marriage altogether? Really, if the priority is smaller government, then actually push consistently for smaller government. The recent cases of Christian businesses being sued by states for not participating in gay weddings shows where this is headed. The CRA is not going to be repealed. Sexual preference will eventually become a protected class. Conservative Christians are going to increasingly find themselves being sued for being themselves. Christian university you don't want to allow gay couples to move into your married student housing? You're losing your tax exempt status. Church owned daycare doesn't want Johnny who wants to be called "Jill" to use the little girl's room? You're losing your license. Christian talk show host condemns gay lifestyle? FCC, which is now considering banning "Washington Redskins" as "offensive" will step in and say "No hate speech over the public airwaves." Marriage can be "equalized" in a way that doesn't open the door to state sponsored persecution of people who don't agree. And that's by getting the government out of marriage.

CATO exists to fuck over Ron Paul style libertarians. It's as simple as that. They want to alienate christian conservatives because that's who the Pauls are building a coalition with.