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Mani
09-29-2014, 11:04 PM
So there are a lot of protests going on in HK. And for the first time in a decade or so, police dressed up in riot gear and fired tear gas on student protestors Sunday night.



That's pretty shocking in HK. Protests are kind of normal. They happen all the time.

Protests or normally so cordial and nice here. You see them maybe every month or more often. You see protestors and police working more hand in hand rather than one vs the other.


This protest has been building with the tensions from Beijing for some months now. And for the SHOCK of many Hong Kongers they were seeing police show force for the first time in memory. It actually infuriated the rest of the public and now has gone from just a student demonstration, where regular people showed up and began supporting the students.


I'm not going to get into the whole thing, but what was truly interesting for me, was some of the Hong Kong folks were approaching me and looking to my advice.

They were scared, frightened, they'd never seen an angry or aggressive police force before. They were looking to me, saying things like...This is scary, like in America! This is how the police in America are? Do you think the police are more dangerous in America? What do you do in these situations, is it safe in America when the police do this?


That's what I thought about the irony. What does that say about America the land of the free, if people in other countries view America as the place with a scary dominant aggressive geared up police force, ready to tear gas and attack the citizens??

If they look to America as the standard bearer for dressing up in riot gear and smacking down the public???

How f'ed up is that!?!

Mani
09-29-2014, 11:09 PM
I had an unrelated conversation with another lady this weekend. The normal goal for any parent here is to send their kids to a great school in HK, so they can grow up and get good grades and get accepted to a good University in USA. Then after graduation, go back to HK or whichever place they are from and get a good job and work.



For the first time I heard a mom say, "No. When she grows up I'm not sending her to USA. It's too violent. There are other Universities in the world. Everyday it gets more violent in USA, I'm not going to send her 10 years from now who knows how bad it will be."



Again, I find these conversations fascinating. To hear what other people see and read and then think about USA, it makes you take a step back and think about how our country is perceived.

Anti Federalist
09-29-2014, 11:32 PM
What do you do in these situations, is it safe in America when the police do this?

No, no it is not.

fr33
09-30-2014, 12:47 AM
They stand about as much of a chance of changing anything as occupy wall street. nothing.

RonPaulIsGreat
09-30-2014, 01:23 AM
Occupy wasn't really protesting anything that they'd actually accept if it went away.

Hong Kong, is protesting reintegration into mainland china. I think they actually should fight. There is no going back if they lose,

twomp
09-30-2014, 01:38 AM
If it follows suit like the Occupy here then some people dressed in black will start breaking windows. The media will then use that to villainize them for public support. The government will use that public support to beat the shit out of them until they go back home. And the masses will thank the government for restoring order. Just like the people around here are against the police unless they are beating on Occupy folks. Then they are all for it.

FindLiberty
09-30-2014, 04:39 AM
If it follows suit like the Occupy here then some people dressed in black will start breaking windows. The media will then use that to villainize them for public support. The government will use that public support to beat the shit out of them until they go back home. And the masses will thank the government for restoring order...

^--THIS--^

Anti Federalist
09-30-2014, 11:39 AM
If it follows suit like the Occupy here then some people dressed in black will start breaking windows. The media will then use that to villainize them for public support. The government will use that public support to beat the shit out of them until they go back home. And the masses will thank the government for restoring order. Just like the people around here are against the police unless they are beating on Occupy folks. Then they are all for it.

You better clarify that with "some people".

dannno
09-30-2014, 12:16 PM
Tell them in the US, we have scoops.

http://www.kaosradioaustin.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1056&g2_serialNumber=1

And riot police wear football helmets :D

dannno
09-30-2014, 12:18 PM
Just like the people around here are against the police unless they are beating on Occupy folks. Then they are all for it.

I think that is a very incorrect statement about the people here - I was pretty involved in the occupy movement myself, and a lot of folks involved were libertarian/anarchist. I would say that a lot of people here wrote off the occupy movement as being mostly leftist influencing, but on the other hand I think a lot of leftists involved in occupy ended up getting some good libetarian/monetary education. But even those who wrote them off, very few if any would have delighted in the beating of occupy folks by police.

Anti Federalist
09-30-2014, 12:29 PM
I think that is a very incorrect statement about the people here - I was pretty involved in the occupy movement myself, and a lot of folks involved were libertarian/anarchist. I would say that a lot of people here wrote off the occupy movement as being mostly leftist influencing, but on the other hand I think a lot of leftists involved in occupy ended up getting some good libetarian/monetary education. But even those who wrote them off, very few if any would have delighted in the beating of occupy folks by police.

I'd be opposed to police beatings even if it was a MADD or Moms for Gun Control march.

dannno
09-30-2014, 12:32 PM
I'd be opposed to police beatings even if it was a MADD or Moms for Gun Control march.

What about Police for Gun Control :confused:


https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2376782080/hE1C6E514/

Anti Federalist
09-30-2014, 12:40 PM
What about Police for Gun Control :confused:

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2376782080/hE1C6E514/

Cops beating cops?

Acala
09-30-2014, 12:44 PM
I'd be opposed to police beatings even if it was a MADD or Moms for Gun Control march.

What if it was State police beating up local police for beating up Federal police for beating up Park police for beating up Transit Police for beating up the Post Office SWAT team?

helmuth_hubener
09-30-2014, 12:50 PM
May the efforts of the brave Hong Kong protestors not be in vain. May Hong Kong stand up for more freedom. And may they get it.

Our hearts are with you, Hong Kong. RPF supports you.

tod evans
09-30-2014, 01:16 PM
What if it was State police beating up local police for beating up Federal police for beating up Park police for beating up Transit Police for beating up the Post Office SWAT team?

Can I buy tickets?

Cdn_for_liberty
09-30-2014, 05:09 PM
Here's a nice pleasant walk in the morning


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwPNWZQiNMQ

helmuth_hubener
09-30-2014, 05:38 PM
The Umbrella Revolution

http://static01.********/images/2014/10/01/world/01protesters-02/01protesters-02-master315.jpg
They clean up their trash, even taking the time to pick out plastic and paper for recycling. Their shield of choice, and the symbol of their cause, is the umbrella: protection against the sun, rain — and pepper spray fired by the riot police.

The pro-democracy demonstrations in Hong Kong, which expanded into additional neighborhoods on Tuesday in defiance of new government warnings, have been a diligently clean, exceedingly polite and scrupulously peaceful insurgency that supporters have taken to calling the Umbrella Revolution.

“An umbrella looks nonthreatening,” said Chloe Ho, 20, a history student distributing apples, chocolate and wet towels on a six-lane downtown expressway occupied by protesters. “It shows how mild we Hong Kong people are, but when you cross our bottom line, we all come out together, just like the umbrellas all come out at the same time when it rains.”

Hers is a movement without a clear leader, one in which crowds of largely younger people are organizing themselves and acting on their own, overtaking months of planning by veterans of the city’s pro-democracy camp. The spontaneous, grass-roots nature of the revolt is one of its strengths — it has adapted quickly and seized the momentum from the government — but it may also make it difficult for the movement to accept any compromise that the Chinese government might be willing to offer.

The freedom-loving libertarians of America applaud your efforts and are inspired by your courage. We wish you all the best! Don't stop at just democracy, though!

Democracy--The God That Failed (http://www.riosmauricio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Hoppe_Democracy_The_God_That_Failed.pdf)

Full freedom, abolishment of the monopoly state, is the answer.

Go Hong Kong!

ChristianAnarchist
09-30-2014, 06:26 PM
My wife is Chinese and her sister just sent her a link to a story in Chinese about how the central government is sending several units of troops to HK with tanks. It looks like Tianamen all over...

Anti Federalist
09-30-2014, 06:29 PM
What if it was State police beating up local police for beating up Federal police for beating up Park police for beating up Transit Police for beating up the Post Office SWAT team?

http://graphicashen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/mind-blown.jpg

Cdn_for_liberty
09-30-2014, 07:08 PM
I am going to go against the grain for a bit here and say that it's not what it seems, kinda like Ukraine and the middle east.

Using "democracy" as a weapon or a shield to hide what is the hidden agenda.

I must say Occupy Central are a cunning bunch, much smarter than their western Occupy counterparts. OWS was very clear in their support for big government socialist ideas but as for OC, these guys hide that hidden agenda underneath this "democracy protest." Many in my mom's generation lived through the cultural revolution and eventually settled in HK so they've faced actual communism before. Even many of them are against these people. Milton Friedman got it right when he said that economic freedom should come before political freedom and I think we are witnessing that right now as most people don't even support these radicals. In the many years under British rule, the prosperity of Hong Kong came from economic freedom, not democracy. Among the protesters is a legislator who considers himself to be the Chinese Che Gueverra who pushes for western socialist policies, which btw many of these protesters support. That is the underlying hidden agenda which is kind of ironic because they would cheer for the good ol' days of British rule when back then HK was pretty much a libertarian city (and is still today...for the most part).

I talked with my uncle about my take on this whole thing and I basically said "the question is not whether HK should have democracy, it's whether HK could survive if these radicals - god forbid - get to the levers of power, whether as a legislator or even as future chief executive?" The answer is no.

Carson
09-30-2014, 07:44 PM
Mani,

I saw this headline on Fark.com and thought you would like it.


How to tell a Hong Kong Occupy protest from a US Occupy protest: 1) the HK protestors are polite, 2) they clean up after themselves, 3) they apologize for inconveniencing passers-by and 4) they're protesting -against- Communism

The comments;

http://www.fark.com/comments/8433507/How-to-tell-a-Hong-Kong-Occupy-protest-from-a-US-Occupy-protest-1-HK-protestors-are-polite-2-they-clean-up-after-themselves-3-they-apologize-for-inconveniencing-passers-by-4-theyre-protesting-against-Communism

twomp
10-01-2014, 03:32 AM
I am going to go against the grain for a bit here and say that it's not what it seems, kinda like Ukraine and the middle east.

Using "democracy" as a weapon or a shield to hide what is the hidden agenda.

I must say Occupy Central are a cunning bunch, much smarter than their western Occupy counterparts. OWS was very clear in their support for big government socialist ideas but as for OC, these guys hide that hidden agenda underneath this "democracy protest." Many in my mom's generation lived through the cultural revolution and eventually settled in HK so they've faced actual communism before. Even many of them are against these people. Milton Friedman got it right when he said that economic freedom should come before political freedom and I think we are witnessing that right now as most people don't even support these radicals. In the many years under British rule, the prosperity of Hong Kong came from economic freedom, not democracy. Among the protesters is a legislator who considers himself to be the Chinese Che Gueverra who pushes for western socialist policies, which btw many of these protesters support. That is the underlying hidden agenda which is kind of ironic because they would cheer for the good ol' days of British rule when back then HK was pretty much a libertarian city (and is still today...for the most part).

I talked with my uncle about my take on this whole thing and I basically said "the question is not whether HK should have democracy, it's whether HK could survive if these radicals - god forbid - get to the levers of power, whether as a legislator or even as future chief executive?" The answer is no.

So what you are saying is that they shouldn't be protesting the fact they can only vote for people who are "vetted" by Beijing? They should just accept who Beijing chooses?

helmuth_hubener
10-01-2014, 09:22 AM
I am going to go against the grain for a bit here and say that it's not what it seems, kinda like Ukraine and the middle east.

Using "democracy" as a weapon or a shield to hide what is the hidden agenda.

I must say Occupy Central are a cunning bunch, much smarter than their western Occupy counterparts. OWS was very clear in their support for big government socialist ideas but as for OC, these guys hide that hidden agenda underneath this "democracy protest." Many in my mom's generation lived through the cultural revolution and eventually settled in HK so they've faced actual communism before. Even many of them are against these people. Milton Friedman got it right when he said that economic freedom should come before political freedom and I think we are witnessing that right now as most people don't even support these radicals. In the many years under British rule, the prosperity of Hong Kong came from economic freedom, not democracy. Among the protesters is a legislator who considers himself to be the Chinese Che Gueverra who pushes for western socialist policies, which btw many of these protesters support. That is the underlying hidden agenda which is kind of ironic because they would cheer for the good ol' days of British rule when back then HK was pretty much a libertarian city (and is still today...for the most part).

I talked with my uncle about my take on this whole thing and I basically said "the question is not whether HK should have democracy, it's whether HK could survive if these radicals - god forbid - get to the levers of power, whether as a legislator or even as future chief executive?" The answer is no.
Yes, I think you're right, actually. That is the problem with these things -- neither side is one that we can really get behind, they both have problems.

This is even true of the Tian'anmen Square protests in 1989. The protestors were actually hard-core Maoists, and they were protesting the move toward a more capitalist system. They were mostly young college-age students and they wanted the government to pay for free college education for them.

Nevertheless, all inconvenient complexities aside, it is still inspiring to see people standing up to their monopoly state, even if one has to ignore and gloss over the protestors' own wrongheadedness and stupidity to get the full emotional impact. And emotional impact it does have.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B51_jjJC354

Free Hong Kong!

Cdn_for_liberty
10-01-2014, 04:52 PM
So what you are saying is that they shouldn't be protesting the fact they can only vote for people who are "vetted" by Beijing? They should just accept who Beijing chooses?

Based on principle, they should protest because Beijing vetted candidates is outright wrong.

That doesn't change the fact that a "democratic" HK would not necessarily bring prosperity to the people.

69360
10-01-2014, 05:04 PM
They think the cops are bad?

Piss off mainland enough and they will send the military.

There is no path to victory for Hong Kong independence or democracy. Mainland won't let it happen and the west won't fight mainland over it.

JK/SEA
10-01-2014, 05:25 PM
hmmm...maybe they should 'petition' for a Constitutional Republic instead of a Democracy.

I'm sure a well worded Initiative will do the trick.

twomp
10-01-2014, 07:44 PM
I am going to go against the grain for a bit here and say that it's not what it seems, kinda like Ukraine and the middle east.

Using "democracy" as a weapon or a shield to hide what is the hidden agenda.

I must say Occupy Central are a cunning bunch, much smarter than their western Occupy counterparts. OWS was very clear in their support for big government socialist ideas but as for OC, these guys hide that hidden agenda underneath this "democracy protest." Many in my mom's generation lived through the cultural revolution and eventually settled in HK so they've faced actual communism before. Even many of them are against these people. Milton Friedman got it right when he said that economic freedom should come before political freedom and I think we are witnessing that right now as most people don't even support these radicals. In the many years under British rule, the prosperity of Hong Kong came from economic freedom, not democracy. Among the protesters is a legislator who considers himself to be the Chinese Che Gueverra who pushes for western socialist policies, which btw many of these protesters support. That is the underlying hidden agenda which is kind of ironic because they would cheer for the good ol' days of British rule when back then HK was pretty much a libertarian city (and is still today...for the most part).

I talked with my uncle about my take on this whole thing and I basically said "the question is not whether HK should have democracy, it's whether HK could survive if these radicals - god forbid - get to the levers of power, whether as a legislator or even as future chief executive?" The answer is no.




You sir are exactly what I am talking in my post above. Don't you ever wonder why all the "protests" in other countries like Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Ukraine, Syria are portrayed as peaceful loving people just trying to fight for democracy against a ruthless government yet the protests here in America are just a bunch juvenile who like to play in trash and destroy buildings? Did you see what the media said about the anti-government people at the Bundy ranch? Did you see how they focused in on the looters in Ferguson when by far, the majority of the protesters were peaceful?

How do you think the media is portraying these protests in mainland China? Do you think they will be highlighting all the things you said above? I guarantee you Occupy Hong Kong is getting the same treatment Occupy Wall St. is getting from the media in mainland China.

The media did a number on the Occupy movements across the country and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.

fr33
10-02-2014, 01:11 AM
If it follows suit like the Occupy here then some people dressed in black will start breaking windows. The media will then use that to villainize them for public support. The government will use that public support to beat the shit out of them until they go back home. And the masses will thank the government for restoring order. Just like the people around here are against the police unless they are beating on Occupy folks. Then they are all for it.

Who here said that? You're making that up.

All I'm saying is that occupy was useless and accomplished nothing. The same could be said about sign waving for Ron Paul. Peaceful public protesting by itself accomplishes nothing. Some of the arab spring protests changed some things (but maybe not for the good in the long run. that's debatable) because they weren't just standing around asking for things.

cindy25
10-02-2014, 01:32 AM
so those who had their babies born in Vancouver (half the babies born in Vancouver are Hong Kong anchor babies) were right

helmuth_hubener
10-02-2014, 09:13 AM
There is no path to victory for Hong Kong independence
An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army, nor any government.

If the people of Hong Kong want to be free, they will be free. Nothing can stop them. Only themselves.

It is the same, incidentally, for the people of San Francisco. Or the people of Toledo. Or....

helmuth_hubener
10-02-2014, 09:17 AM
The media did a number on the Occupy movements across the country and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.
I should clarify that I do not agree with, and do not know anything about, whatever Occupy conspiracy theory Cdn is positing.

I just agree that the protest leaders may largely be socialists/anti-capitalists. And that's too bad. But the protests still show a desire for liberty from government oppression, even if the understanding is not perfect.

Mani
10-02-2014, 11:20 PM
You sir are exactly what I am talking in my post above. Don't you ever wonder why all the "protests" in other countries like Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Ukraine, Syria are portrayed as peaceful loving people just trying to fight for democracy against a ruthless government yet the protests here in America are just a bunch juvenile who like to play in trash and destroy buildings? Did you see what the media said about the anti-government people at the Bundy ranch? Did you see how they focused in on the looters in Ferguson when by far, the majority of the protesters were peaceful?

How do you think the media is portraying these protests in mainland China? Do you think they will be highlighting all the things you said above? I guarantee you Occupy Hong Kong is getting the same treatment Occupy Wall St. is getting from the media in mainland China.

The media did a number on the Occupy movements across the country and you fell for it hook, line and sinker.




China is censoring about 90% to 99% of the protest in Mainland.

Weibo (The chinese version of twitter) got turned off last week. Instagram got turned off..Facebook is already banned.

And on Wednesday during NATIONAL DAY, the pictures of people standing in the streets in HK, were being portrayed as, "HK citizens celebrating national Day!!!" Not protesting.

There is a ton of censorship going on. In fact I have a client who after a week in HK, was in China for 2 days and just called me frustrated..He said it's impossible to find any news about the protest. Not on TV, not on the internet...Nothing...It's all censored.

Mani
10-02-2014, 11:22 PM
My wife is Chinese and her sister just sent her a link to a story in Chinese about how the central government is sending several units of troops to HK with tanks. It looks like Tianamen all over...


There's tons of rumors going around and a few pictures of tanks rolling on the streets of HK.


Those are only rumors and those are old pictures of some training exercise or something from before. There are no tanks or armies running around. After the tear gas last week Sunday everything has been civil.

Mani
10-02-2014, 11:36 PM
Occupy wasn't really protesting anything that they'd actually accept if it went away.

Hong Kong, is protesting reintegration into mainland china. I think they actually should fight. There is no going back if they lose,



Technically they are fighting for their voting rights. During the '97 handover there was a PROMISE of the right to vote for their CEO of the city (or like the mayor or governor). They have never had this, not during British rule either. That promise was cut and dry and as of 2007 the promise was still being told they will get it.

Then Beijing recently started saying...Yay....We'll keep the promise but we are going to pre-approve the list of candidates you get to vote for. Then the protests starting happening this summer.


So a lot of the people on the side of the students are saying....They won't even let us have our own vote? Is China going to going back on their promise one by one? Are HK's rights and freedoms SLOWLY going to start to erode?



On the other side of the coin....The older folks are HAPPY with the ECONOMIC FREEDOMS and in general the whole 1 country 2 systems philosophy. No censorship, right to protest, and a gov't that pretty much is Laissez-faire. Beijing pretty much leaves HK alone and let's it be. The older folks are saying, "We got it pretty good. Let's not rock the boat." So they are disagreeing with the protest. They don't want to piss off China. They don't want to lose what they have, they got it pretty good. They think, we have a lot to lose and it's useless to go against China, nothing good will come out of this.

Another ECONOMIC issue that people don't realize. HK has no duties, not taxes, no import taxes, no export taxes, no sales taxes, no other crazy ass taxes (besides on hard liquor and cigs). It has made it a trading hub, financial hub. It has also made it a HUGE tourist hub for mainland China. Mainland has TONS of taxes and HIGH luxury taxes. 35 to 50% luxury taxes (think perfumes, cosmetics, beauty products, purses, handbags, every high end brand product, etc.)

So HK with the rise of the $$$ in Mainland China is now a Tourist NIRVANA. Millions of dollars are spent EVERY WEEK by mainland Chinese who bus in for the weekend or weekday...Buy crazy amounts of stuff...Then head back to China.

HK is the benefiter of these taxes. If China were to create TAX FREE ZONES within China, Hong Kong would suffer. HK economy would take a big hit. So the people who's livelihood depends on these advantages aren't crazy about China taking action and screwing HK when many in HK know we have an artificial advantage that's helping the economy.

Mani
10-02-2014, 11:50 PM
Mani,

I saw this headline on Fark.com and thought you would like it.


How to tell a Hong Kong Occupy protest from a US Occupy protest: 1) the HK protestors are polite, 2) they clean up after themselves, 3) they apologize for inconveniencing passers-by and 4) they're protesting -against- Communism

The comments;

http://www.fark.com/comments/8433507/How-to-tell-a-Hong-Kong-Occupy-protest-from-a-US-Occupy-protest-1-HK-protestors-are-polite-2-they-clean-up-after-themselves-3-they-apologize-for-inconveniencing-passers-by-4-theyre-protesting-against-Communism


Thanks for that!



HK students are extremely polite and well mannered.

This is a pretty good article about how they keep things clean and tidy.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29423147



There are tons of people also helping out on the sidelines. I know of an expat HK moms group that is coordinating donations. A few moms went to Shenzhen and bought 10,000 Umbrellas for when it rained earlier in the week. People are helping to donate all over the place with supplies. It's happening through social media.



Back to the manners thing. We were discussing last night, how Central has a shopping district with some of the biggest fashion stores and high end goods in HK. These stores are simply a cracked window away from being pillaged. Yet there's not even a realm of possibility that anyone would consider throwing a rock and looting the heck out of these stores with millions of dollars worth of stuff just sitting there.

Anyone who would try to instigate a riot and looting would definitely be a NON-STUDENT and I don't think the students would tolerate that behavior at all, they'd probably tie him up and hand him over or something....I just don't see those kinds of acts happening at all.




Another thing, the biggest fear with the old timers who say don't rock the boat. Is that China won't let it happen because they have a huge population and if everyone starts asking for voting rights, it becomes a huge problem. What if they give in to HK, then one by one it starts a domino effect. Others think Mainlanders already know HK is a unique situation, 1 party 2 systems, so it won't matter if they give in to HK.

helmuth_hubener
10-03-2014, 07:56 AM
There is a ton of censorship going on. In fact I have a client who after a week in HK, was in China for 2 days and just called me frustrated..He said it's impossible to find any news about the protest. Not on TV, not on the internet...Nothing...It's all censored.
I guess he doesn't use a VPN (usually bandwidth on the mainland makes that difficult or excruciating anyway).

You don't think the censorship is actually going to work, do you Mani? I mean, the Chinese are going to hear and know something's going on just by word of mouth! It might be totally distorted, but they'll know there's protests afoot. Learning about it by rumor might even cause them to look like a bigger deal than they are, via the "fish story"/telephone effect. What do you think?

KCIndy
10-03-2014, 11:19 AM
What if it was State police beating up local police for beating up Federal police for beating up Park police for beating up Transit Police for beating up the Post Office SWAT team?


It would mean there are WAY too many police.

Cdn_for_liberty
10-03-2014, 09:33 PM
Here's an article on the WSJ that I think is pretty fair and it talks about the motivation of the protestors.


HONG KONG—Late one night, 23-year-old Near Chiu came back to his family’s apartment, tired and needing a shower after days on the streets with pro-democracy protesters who have occupied parts of the city this past week.

His father’s first words, Near recalled, were: “So, did you get a taste of the tear gas?” Angered by the derisive tone, Near retreated to his tiny bedroom, set off from the living room with a curtain, and followed news about the protests on his computer.

Such confrontations between young and old have been playing out in crowded, shoe-box apartments and on the streets across this teeming city.

The generational divide was evident Friday when crowds of mostly middle-aged men confronted the demonstrators in one busy shopping area, leading to clashes. Many counter-demonstrators appeared to be shopkeepers and street vendors, who complained that their businesses are suffering as a result of the chaos.

Student leaders, accusing the police of failing to do their job, pulled back from proposed talks with the local government.

Many of the teenagers and young adults who form the core of the protests have an aspirational vision for Hong Kong as a Western-style democracy in which the public has a say in politics. Many elders feel lucky to have climbed out of poverty to make a decent living on mainland China’s doorstep and don’t want to put their gains at risk by upending the status quo with Beijing.

Near’s father, Chiu Kin Ming, said he felt the protests—which swelled dramatically after the police tear-gassed demonstrators on Sept. 28—were harmful to the city, hurting his and other businesses. “There will be problems,” he said.

The dispute centers on the election of Hong Kong’s top leader, who has the title chief executive. Under a new plan, Hong Kong residents would be allowed to vote for chief executive for the first time—but only from candidates approved by a nominating committee that Beijing largely controls.

A poll last month by the Chinese University of Hong Kong showed that three-fourths of people age 15 to 24 opposed the plan, compared with less than half of people aged 40-59.

The poll also found that the city’s best-known pro-democracy group, Occupy Central, had more support among the young: 47% of people under 24 said they backed it, compared with about 21% of those ages 40-59.

The generation gap is a byproduct of Hong Kong’s ascendance from developing-world status to a sleek, wealthy financial hub.

Though there is wide income disparity—most Hong Kongers live far from the skyscrapers overlooking Victoria Harbour—the city’s rise has created expectations among the young for possibilities that would have been unimaginable for their parents.


Near’s father—a stocky man in his 50s with receding hair—would like his son to take over his jade shop. He said he is proud that he has earned enough through his business to raise two children and buy a home.

Near, who wears his hair in a long black fringe, would like to become a commercial photographer, like one of his heroes Steven Meisel, an American fashion photographer. He wears a black shirt that reads, “I shoot people” with the image of a camera on it. But he doesn’t want to look for a job right now because he wants to keep protesting.

“I will not do sales,” Near said in a recent interview before preparing to go back to the protests. “That’s not the world that belongs to me.”

The differences are intensified by another prevalent factor of Hong Kong life: entire families live together, even when the children are well into adulthood. That is partly out of custom and partly because real-estate prices in this densely populated city of seven million are among the highest in the world.

Many young protesters said they were sneaking out of their houses to join rallies without telling their parents, hoping they wouldn’t find out.

A day earlier, in their cramped apartment in the Fanling area, near the border with the mainland, Near and his sister and parents watched TV. Images of protests flashed on; the conversation turned to politics.

“Before, the Communist Party wasn’t democratic,” the father said. “But in recent years, from being not very democratic at all, it’s improved,” he said.

“The Communist Party hasn’t changed,” his son responded.

“The economy has improved,” his father said. “The mainland in a lot of ways has gotten really developed. Not like before, when life was harsh and bitter.”

Mr. Chiu grew up in the poverty-stricken northern countryside of Guangdong province, where the family farmed corn. During the turmoil of the Mao Zedong era, Mr. Chiu’s father left for Hong Kong and started Tak Lee Jade & Jewelry, on busy Canton Road.

In 1978, in his 20s, Mr. Chiu followed. At the time, China’s per capita gross domestic product was only about $200. He said he was impressed by Hong Kong’s shopping malls and eager to enjoy the more-modern ways of life in the flourishing British colony.

For years, the family lived in a space where they had just one bed and shared a toilet and kitchen with other families. But the jade shop did well, especially after Beijing loosened rules on mainlanders traveling to Hong Kong to shop. Mr. Chiu was able to buy an apartment—now the family home—as a government-subsidized rate in 1994 for 300,000 Hong Kong dollars ($38,700).

The family started to use air conditioning, a big luxury. Mr. Chiu bought Near his first camera when his son was 16. The son spent hours wandering through the city taking photographs. But his father hammered home a simple message: “You need to be a useful person,” he said. “You need to make money. More, more money.”

The son, whose birth name is Chiu Sung Tat, began calling himself Near after a Japanese cartoon character. He said that as he got older, he became more interested in politics and civic society than in earning money.

He started watching Hong Kong’s legislative sessions online. He felt drawn to a legislator known as Long Hair (because he vowed never to cut his hair unless the Communist Party was overthrown) and Wong Yuk-ming, who is nicknamed Mad Dog for his fiery speeches on behalf of the city’s pro-democracy movement and its working class.

“I started to see the real problem is that people in government don’t have the peoples’ votes. They don’t need the support of the local people,” Near said. About half of the city’s legislature is now directly elected; the other half is voted in by broad constituencies such as the commercial and legal sectors.

Near began turning up at rallies. He also enrolled at City University of Hong Kong to study creative media. His family’s apartment was so crowded that he worked with the lights off so others could sleep. His father still held out hope his son would follow him into the jade trade.

His son replied: “I think this generation wants to chase their dreams rather than just using traditional methods to follow their ancestors.”

Near joined the current protests early, hanging out on Sept. 26 near a government square that had been sealed off with a 10-foot fence. Some students scaled the fence but were then corralled by police.

Near said he and other students grabbed barricades and started setting up roadblocks to prevent more police from rushing in. He slept outside that night and spent long hours at the protests over the following days, taking pictures.

Later at home, he and his father quarreled over the impact of the protests, which have kept major thoroughfares paralyzed.

Mr. Chiu complained business was slow at his jade store, saying it hadn’t made a single sale for weeks. Father and son sparred over whether the protest activity—or China’s recent anticorruption crackdown, which has dented sales of luxury goods—was to blame.

Talk shifted to his son’s career. Since graduating in June, Near said he has focused on protests, though he mused that someday he could become an assistant to a famous photographer, making perhaps HK$13,000 ($1,675) a month.

“So low,” his mother said. “I can’t believe it,” added his father.

After sleeping a few hours, Near stayed up until the early morning, processing photos from the protest. The next day, he returned to the streets.


http://online.wsj.com/articles/in-hong-kong-a-family-divided-1412360934?tesla=y&mg=reno64-wsj

It's pretty much economic concerns that drives this movement. There's definitely that class warfare aspect not just the poor vs rich people but the kids vs their parents' generation.

GunnyFreedom
10-03-2014, 09:45 PM
If it follows suit like the Occupy here then some people dressed in black will start breaking windows. The media will then use that to villainize them for public support. The government will use that public support to beat the shit out of them until they go back home. And the masses will thank the government for restoring order. Just like the people around here are against the police unless they are beating on Occupy folks. Then they are all for it.

WHO on RPFs was Ok with police beating Occupy? I saw no such thing on this board.

Mani
10-05-2014, 10:18 PM
I guess he doesn't use a VPN (usually bandwidth on the mainland makes that difficult or excruciating anyway).

You don't think the censorship is actually going to work, do you Mani? I mean, the Chinese are going to hear and know something's going on just by word of mouth! It might be totally distorted, but they'll know there's protests afoot. Learning about it by rumor might even cause them to look like a bigger deal than they are, via the "fish story"/telephone effect. What do you think?


VPN sucks in Mainland. My son has some friends that moved to mainland that love to game and stuff or watch american TV, and they always cry it's worthless.


Regarding the censorship working. YES to some extent. My customer said he asked everyone he could talk to about the protests while in Mainland and most had no clue.


The only thing China showed about the protests is people in HK celebrating National Day. Of course the sample size is extremely small! One client of mine walking around China for 2 days asking people if they knew about the protests and most if not all were clueless. Again, small sample size, but scary to think that my client is ON A BORDER TOWN to HK, and everyone he talked to had no clue.

Again very small sample size. I'm sure some stuff gets out. But Beijing is pretty much censoring every website from CNN to whatever. They are just wholesale blocking everything.

I'm sure people who are sensitive to this issue find a way to know more, but a lot of people in Mainland are clueless to what's happening.

MRK
10-06-2014, 02:01 AM
I'm on the mainland and right now and haven't heard anything about it from a local, although my Chinese is Very Bad and I don't know many people yet. Granted a lot of people are home right now with their families for the national day (week) holiday so there's probably some discussions starting there.

ChristianAnarchist
10-06-2014, 07:59 PM
VPN sucks in Mainland. My son has some friends that moved to mainland that love to game and stuff or watch american TV, and they always cry it's worthless.


Regarding the censorship working. YES to some extent. My customer said he asked everyone he could talk to about the protests while in Mainland and most had no clue.


The only thing China showed about the protests is people in HK celebrating National Day. Of course the sample size is extremely small! One client of mine walking around China for 2 days asking people if they knew about the protests and most if not all were clueless. Again, small sample size, but scary to think that my client is ON A BORDER TOWN to HK, and everyone he talked to had no clue.

Again very small sample size. I'm sure some stuff gets out. But Beijing is pretty much censoring every website from CNN to whatever. They are just wholesale blocking everything.

I'm sure people who are sensitive to this issue find a way to know more, but a lot of people in Mainland are clueless to what's happening.

I use VPN every time I'm in China (February was the last time). It might get a little slow at times, but it's always worked for me. I can't stand not having access to Youtube and some other resources. Going back around springtime. I've used VPN for about 10 years now from China.