Suspect In Moore, OK Workplace Beheading Recently Converted To Islam

[tsai3904]

A man reportedly beheaded a woman and stabbed another one at a Moore food distribution center Thursday afternoon.

According to Sgt. Jeremy Lewis with the Moore Police Department, coworkers told police that the suspect, 30-year-old Alton Alexander Nolen, had recently converted to Islam to become a Muslim. Coworkers said he had been trying to convert them to Islam, as well.

According to police, at about 4:05 p.m. Thursday, officers responded to the report of an “out-of-control” employee at Vaughan Foods, located at 216 NE 12th St. While speaking to the caller, officers learned that someone had been stabbed and gunshots were fired.

When officers arrived at the scene, police said they found two victims, 54-year-old Colleen Hufford and 43-year-old Tracy Johnson. Hufford was beheaded, and Johnson was suffering from multiple knife wounds.

...

More:
http://www.news9.com/story/26635789/coworkers-suspect-in-moore-workplace-attack-recently-converted-to-islam

[dannno]

Oh I believe that without question...

:rolleyes:

[invisible]

This came out as a local story yesterday, that some disgruntled employee had stabbed someone before being shot by an armed security guard, who happened to be an off duty cop, and that the incident was under investigation. Now suddenly a stabbing becomes a beheading, and this guy is now suddenly a you-know-what. Of course, he won't ever live to see the inside of a courtroom or be able to tell his story. I imagine this particular piece of propaganda will go over better than the mystery faction that no one has ever heard of.

[Elias Graves]

Plenty of info here locally. I have a coworker with a family member works there. The guy was in the process of converting to Islam, apparently. He had recently begun refusing to accept orders from female superiors, was constantly trying to convert coworkers and making fairly regular "infidel" rants at work. That's why he was fired. Before the termination was even over, he bolted from the hr office, jumped in his car, drove to another building and grabbed the first female he came across.
There's no doubt what his motivation was.

[twomp]

He could just be crazy. This just in. Crazy people do crazy shit no matter their choice of gods.

[presence]

Thread: ISIS: If you can kill a disbelieving American [or] filthy French... (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460248-ISIS-If-you-can-kill-a-disbelieving-American-or-filthy-French)

[dannno]

Plenty of info here locally. I have a coworker with a family member works there. The guy was in the process of converting to Islam, apparently. He had recently begun refusing to accept orders from female superiors, was constantly trying to convert coworkers and making fairly regular "infidel" rants at work. That's why he was fired. Before the termination was even over, he bolted from the hr office, jumped in his car, drove to another building and grabbed the first female he came across.
There's no doubt what his motivation was.

Was he seeing a psychiatrist? Was he on medication?

[Elias Graves]

Was he seeing a psychiatrist? Was he on medication?

He was seeing an imam and drugged on Islam.

[Elias Graves]

He could just be crazy. This just in. Crazy people do crazy shit no matter their choice of gods.

Of course. "Just crazy" people convert to Islam, try to convert coworkers, go on infidel rants and cut women's heads off...

[enhanced_deficit]

Plenty of info here locally. I have a coworker with a family member works there. The guy was in the process of converting to Islam, apparently. He had recently begun refusing to accept orders from female superiors, was constantly trying to convert coworkers and making fairly regular "infidel" rants at work. That's why he was fired. Before the termination was even over, he bolted from the hr office, jumped in his car, drove to another building and grabbed the first female he came across.
There's no doubt what his motivation was.

That is informative expert analysis on motivation behind this crime.

On a related motivation question that has been coming up now and then, what in your view was motivation of people who brought down wtc1/2/7?


Question arises, why it is almost always the "convert" in US/UK news?

Convert 1:
http://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/224.jpg?w=640&h=299 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=I9WnoTJGQTP2AM&tbnid=qwOOCyWMKCMppM:&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fheavy.com%2Fnews%2F2014%2F09%2Fal ton-nolen-oklahoma-beheading-colleen-hufford-mark-vaughn%2F&ei=reslVJu5EoyfggTahIGwDQ&bvm=bv.76247554,d.eXY&psig=AFQjCNGMls-KitLcLBA2uYMWevv7T4vFqA&ust=1411857667751925)
http://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/alton-nolan.jpg?w=640&h=297 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=I9WnoTJGQTP2AM&tbnid=ANWN1RO66B93pM:&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fheavy.com%2Fnews%2F2014%2F09%2Fal ton-nolen-oklahoma-beheading-colleen-hufford-mark-vaughn%2F&ei=0uwlVNTGFdW5ggSB6IJw&bvm=bv.76247554,d.eXY&psig=AFQjCNGMls-KitLcLBA2uYMWevv7T4vFqA&ust=1411857667751925)



Convert 2:

Recall RM 1.0 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?459503-ISIS-Revolution-Muslim-2-0&)of CNN's "Home Grown Hate" fame.



https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQo1Q7WU1jQIWPvm_nv2R0wYtf_HuKp Ga8FEmeYJ2d_4WggzZe (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=FE6bXlfO-W8gsM&tbnid=tdtVoZelTfM7LM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftotus-blog.blogspot.com%2F2009_11_01_archive.html&ei=QowOVLmJAozwgwSz8ILgDQ&bvm=bv.74649129,d.eXY&psig=AFQjCNHLaIlJZ-AvHoLwrB_qTmY4WIm48w&ust=1410324382758058)http://www.r-islam.com/en/images/stories/joseph%20cohen.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=Z6V2OH9KuPHXJM&tbnid=AonBC4ZYNmpysM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpascasher.blogspot.com%2F2010_10_ 01_archive.html&ei=55AOVI6WBdPzgwTFvYGADw&bvm=bv.74649129,d.eXY&psig=AFQjCNFppYYGPsBshlaEKY7XHx0ViUb6rg&ust=1410327126090475)



Convert 3:

British mother in her 40s suspected of joining the Islamic State and warns that she will behead Christians with a ‘blunt knife’
Sunday 31 Aug 2014 5:55 pm
http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/ad_144450083.jpg?w=650&h=438&crop=1#038;h=495Sally Jones fronted an all-girl rock bank in the 90s (Picture: Youtube)
http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/ad_144447365.jpgSally Jones is believed to be the woman in this picture, brandishing an AK-47 rifle (Picture: Twitter)


Link: puppet masters (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?457520-A-question-for-those-who-think-Obama-team-helped-create-ISIS-Jihadi-group&)

[satchelmcqueen]

how convenient this happens exactly at this moment. either it was a crazy person or a real sory. either way the gov will use it to instill more fear on the masses. or rather the dumb masses.

[CaptainAmerica]

1 "beheading" and americans are going to become paranoid and afraid.

whatever is left of the middle class, they need to get their heads out of their A@# , there have been stabbings/shootings and muggings of all sorts going on in the inner cities for over a century, do not expect 1 beheading to change the safety of america ,especially in big cities where people are not allowed to conceal carry or own a gun to begin with...and when employees are not permitted to conceal carry. Because of the times we live in where people seem to retaliate like cowards for being fired, or disliked by peers...I think people should conceal even if its not "lawful"

[twomp]

Of course. "Just crazy" people convert to Islam, try to convert coworkers, go on infidel rants and cut women's heads off...

I don't get what you are trying to imply. Are you saying this guy wasn't nuts?

[cajuncocoa]

It doesn't matter what really happened....because we'll never know what really happened.

What matters, and what will have the biggest effect on all of us, is what they tell Boobus, and what Boobus believes happened.

It's all over now. We're screwed.

[RJB]

They'll fix this by having more DUI, driver license, and seat belt checkpoints for all Americans. That'll teach ISIS!

[alucard13mm]

They'll fix this by having more DUI, driver license, and seat belt checkpoints for all Americans. That'll teach ISIS!

Not to mention taking away guns that we might need to defend ourselves if this threat is real.

[euphemia]

How does someone get that big a weapon into work?

[2young2vote]

I don't think this will have any effect on the ISIS situation. It will not increase or decrease public opinion of the conflict and it will have no effect on our gun and self-protection rights. In fact, it was supposedly ended by someone carrying a firearm.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Something for the neoconservative idiots to feast on. Could you imagine if Eric Frein had been a Muslim, instead of a white survivalist? Fox News and Free Republic would be going ape-sh**.

[Brian4Liberty]

The guy was a nut, that goes without saying. He was also a disgruntled worker who was fired. It also seems he was motivated by radical beliefs. It all works together.

The media will use this for their own pro-war agenda. Never let a crisis go to waste.

[Dr.3D]

I seriously doubt murderers are routinely going around cutting people's heads off. Seems like that is a signature style of killing. If they call it workplace violence, then we should expect to see a lot of people who had their heads cut off in acts of workplace violence, not just one.

[kcchiefs6465]

I seriously doubt murderers are routinely going around cutting people's heads off. Seems like that is a signature style of killing. If they call it workplace violence, then we should expect to see a lot of people who had their heads cut off in acts of workplace violence, not just one.
"You" 'wage a war on Islam' and people are going to respond. Expect more types of these instances (though many will be blown out of proportion).

I'm not defending it in the least. The individuals should be shot and killed (if that's what it takes) on an individual and self defense basis.

The odds of being murdered by the police are still higher.

Yet FOX or CNN or MSNBC etc. are not speaking of the people being shot or otherwise murdered rather routinely in this country. It does have something to do with this fear mongering campaign inculcating Americans into this fear based, suspicious society.

[GunnyFreedom]

You know the real solution to all of this is for everyone to go armed. Someone yanks out a machete and starts going bonkers after someone, shoot him. Shoot him dead. They guy who was about to be 12 pounds lighter will be grateful, even if the cops do decide to freak out.

[Dr.3D]

"You" 'wage a war on Islam' and people are going to respond. Expect more types of these instances (though many will be blown out of proportion).

I'm not defending it in the least. The individuals should be shot and killed (if that's what it takes) on an individual and self defense basis.

The odds of being murdered by the police are still higher.

Yet FOX or CNN or MSNBC etc. are not speaking of the people being shot or otherwise murdered rather routinely in this country. It does have something to do with this fear mongering campaign inculcating Americans into this fear based, suspicious society.
Seems more like war is being waged upon me if they are trying to cut my head off. I will defend myself as necessary.

[pessimist]

You" 'wage a war on Islam' and people are going to respond

Most Muslims are killed by other Muslims for, uh, being Muslim. Christians used to do the same thing.

[Dr.3D]

Most Muslims are killed by other Muslims for, uh, being Muslim. Christians used to do the same thing.
And people are responding.

[pessimist]

The whole thing is ridiculous from my perspective. But then again, I don't have a religious mind or any desire to blow shit up and kill people for not subscribing to my weltanschauung, or for having a slightly different take on it.

I just can't comprehend it. It just really seems high school drama queen to me.

[kcchiefs6465]

Seems more like war is being waged upon me if they are trying to cut my head off. I will defend myself as necessary.
Until 500,000 children starve to death here because of economic interference or some fifteen predominantly Christian countries are bombed by and large without provocation, I just do not see how you consider that so.

Most Muslims would condemn these sorts of acts, FWIW. The ones I've met have all been stand up, hard working types who do not want to be associated with the radicalized factions.

Decades of foolish policy, they've been kicking hornet's nests... and it won't be the Muslims that inflict the most damage. It will come when this country is bankrupt to money lenders and has to live beneath its means.

Probably will turn a [more] socialized stride, a despot elected or assuming power (the people will cheer for it, probably). Such is the way of the world.

You are more likely to be struck by lightning if that makes you feels any better. The only difference is waging a war on lightning wouldn't increase the probability of lightning striking.

And the police murder people daily. I mean murder, not kill. Fuck ISIS. One day everyone knows their name. The CIA has been doing shady shit since the OSS and frankly, it smells. But what's a few billion to a couple trillion? (not that you support that, of course... I really don't know if you do)

[Dr.3D]

Seems I've hit a nerve. And all this time, I've been told, the folks doing those terrorist acts were not Islamic. Perhaps I've been lied to.

[kcchiefs6465]

Most Muslims are killed by other Muslims for, uh, being Muslim. Christians used to do the same thing.
I'm sure that is what it is.

What do you know about Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr or Husni al-Za'im.

'They've' been meddling in that region for 70 years, causing trouble as they go.

If you are unfamiliar with what I am referring to I'd recommend starting with Killing Hope by William Blum, followed up by Blowback by Chalmers Johnson, The Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson, and finally, Dirty Wars by Jeremy Scahill. (in that order, preferably.. it paints a pretty accurate picture)

[pessimist]

Are you denying the sectarian violence?

[kcchiefs6465]

Seems I've hit a nerve. And all this time, I've been told, the folks doing those terrorist acts were not Islamic. Perhaps I've been lied to.
I'm not a Muslim... and frankly care not about the region aside from me being robbed continually (while barely making ends meet as is) to murder people around the globe for narrow geopolitical reasons... people who do not pose a threat to the United States and more importantly who do not pose a threat to me. I also care about the disregard for humanity as well and the subsequent loss of freedom at home (it's all connected).

You know when I'll go? When they roll up on the beaches of the Carolinas.

Though, of course, if you want to go, by all means.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Sgt. Lewis said the weapon Nolen used is a standard knife used in the business.


I'm sure by "standard knife" he meant the food distribution business and not the beheading business. LOL.

[Dr.3D]

I'm not a Muslim... and frankly care not about the region aside from me being robbed continually (while barely making ends meet as is) to murder people around the globe for narrow geopolitical reasons... people who do not pose a threat to the United States and more importantly who do not pose a threat to me. I also care about the disregard for humanity as well and the subsequent loss of freedom at home (it's all connected).

You know when I'll go? When they roll up on the beaches of the Carolinas.

Though, of course, if you want to go, by all means.
Go where? I've already done my thing in Vietnam.

[kcchiefs6465]

Are you denying the sectarian violence?
You're a little late to the conversation.

Forgive me for being short.

In short, yes there is sectarian violence.

Not only are you offering an oversimplified view, you are ignorantly doing so at that.

[kcchiefs6465]

Go where? I've already done my thing in Vietnam.
Well if there ever was an illustration of fear mongering, exploiting war promoters, Vietnam would be the prime example.

Having gone to 'Nam, would you send your child to Iraq?

Ever seen Born on the Fourth of July?

[Dr.3D]

Well if there ever was an illustration of fear mongering, exploiting war promoters, Vietnam would be the prime example.

Having gone to 'Nam, would you send your child to Iraq?

Ever seen Born on the Fourth of July?
No I wouldn't send my children anyplace they didn't want to go. Besides, they're too old to be drafted.
I was born in the cold months, so no I was never born on the 4th of July.

[Miss Annie]

I'm sure that is what it is.

What do you know about Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr or Husni al-Za'im.

'They've' been meddling in that region for 70 years, causing trouble as they go.

If you are unfamiliar with what I am referring to I'd recommend starting with Killing Hope by William Blum, followed up by Blowback by Chalmers Johnson, The Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson, and finally, Dirty Wars by Jeremy Scahill. (in that order, preferably.. it paints a pretty accurate picture)

I'd recommend the Koran, the Hadiths and then "the left's romance with terror and tyranny". That should paint a pretty clear picture too. ;)

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” – Sun Tzu

[kcchiefs6465]

No I wouldn't send my children anyplace they didn't want to go. Besides, they're too old to be drafted.
I was born in the cold months, so no I was never born on the 4th of July.
I like the part where the permanently paralyzed came home, his buddy had opened his own business.. was doing good.

Earlier in the movie he tried to tell him, and I paraphrase, "You know when I'll go fight? When they roll up on the shore of the Chesapeake."

Later in the movie, after the soldier was turned a partial vegetable he said, and I paraphrase, "You fell for that bullshit. Where are the communists?"

Emotional movie. True story but I've never read the book. I am unsure how closely it follows what actually happened.

[Dr.3D]

I like the part where the permanently paralyzed came home, his buddy had opened his own business.. was doing good.

Earlier in the movie he tried to tell him, and I paraphrase, "You know when I'll go fight? When they roll up on the shore of the Chesapeake."

Later in the movie, after the soldier was turned a partial vegetable he said, and I paraphrase, "You fell for that bullshit. Where are the communists?"

Emotional movie. True story but I've never read the book. I am unsure how closely it follows what actually happened.
There was a draft at the time, if not, I wouldn't have had to go. It's not like I fell for anything.

[enhanced_deficit]

And all this time, I've been told, the folks doing those terrorist acts were not Islamic. Perhaps I've been lied to.

Best defense against lies is to be not gullible, but practioners of modified French guillotine do not belong to a single religion. One min google search found below cases.
But war oriented media like Drudge/Wapo/Christians4Israel etc try to highlight/exaggerate/package news that suits their foreign bombings/occupations agendas.

Man gets 14 years in cartel beheading in Arizona
www.denverpost.com/ci_23199286?source=bbThe (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_23199286?source=bbThe) Denver Post
May 8, 2013 - PHOENIX—A man was sentenced to 14 years in prison Wednesday for his ... Martin Alejandro Cota-Monroy at an apartment in the Phoenix ...

Israel Refuses to Extradite a Murder Suspect
Israel has decided not to extradite a Maryland high school student wanted for murder in the dismemberment of another teen-ager, saying he would be tried there instead.
On the day Mr. Tello's body was found, real estate agents who were supervising repairs at a house recently put on the market in Aspen Hill stopped by, noticed a stench and found the head and torso wrapped in garbage bags. The police said that near the body they found an electric saw apparently used to dismember Mr. Tello's body. A trail of blood was found along a wooded path leads from Mr. Sheinbein's home to the where the body was found, they said.
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/01/us/israel-refuses-to-extradite-a-murder-suspect.html

Phoenix man gets 8 years for attempted beheading
July 24, 2014
http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/arizonarepublic/brightcove/29901534001/29901534001_2532097116001_vs-51d995cfe4b09579811d6985-1471893705001.jpg
(Photo: Maricopa County Sheriff's Office)
Hansen, 36, pleaded guilty in June to attacking his mother at a Phoenix restaurant on July 2, 2013. Police said he knocked his mother unconscious, stabbed her in the neck and attempted to cut off her head.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/07/24/phoenix-attempted-beheading-sentencing/13090489


2003: Washington Post ran 27 editorials in favor of Iraq invasion (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?458793-2003-Washington-Post-ran-27-editorials-in-favor-of-Iraq-invasion&)


Drudge probably ran 127 headlines to cultivate Iraq war mania.

Now a related motivation question that has been coming up now and then, what in your view was motivation of people who brought down wtc1/2/7?

[kcchiefs6465]

I'd recommend the Koran, the Hadiths and then "the left's romance with terror and tyranny". That should paint a pretty clear picture too. ;)

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” – Sun Tzu
I've read Sun Tzu.

As to reading the Qu'ran, I frankly will never. I am somewhat familiar with it. Less so than the Bible, but familiar with it nonetheless.

I'd simply remind you of some of the rather peculiar teachings of the Bible. Or any other despicable thing a Christian has done. Because that's an argument, I assume?

Are there radical jihadists? Yes. Has the problem been exacerbated by decades of US foolish policy? Yes.

Even if I believed that 'they' all (freedom cabbage rings a bell) wished to impose Sharia on the United States I am left hearing the words of the late Smedley Butler. What, logistically, would you expect an invasion of the United States to cost?

Or are you simply worried of the lone attackers? I assure you the policy as it stands does more to promote that than any congressional act of war would. People who previously revered the United States, after their family was erroneously murdered have said as much. That rather than living practically family-less, they'd sooner strap on a bomb and kill as many servicemen as possible.

And it's not that that is right. I'm simply explaining this mindset.

We shouldn't be there. Further being there is only extending this perpetual conflict further into perpetuity.

[pessimist]

You're a little late to the conversation.

Forgive me for being short.

In short, yes there is sectarian violence.

Not only are you offering an oversimplified view, you are ignorantly doing so at that.


Okay can you give an erudite and complicated reason as to why some maniac will blow himself up in a marketplace? Why he'll behead his next door neighbor for not subscribing to his version of religion? Why he'll disown his daughter for being raped?

Geopolitics? Western meddling? Mental Illness? Why is stuff like that so common in that region? Cultural conditioning? Poverty? The Zionist state? The Anglosphere?

I’ m not educated on Islam or ME affairs but you have my attention.

[fr33]

You know the real solution to all of this is for everyone to go armed. Someone yanks out a machete and starts going bonkers after someone, shoot him. Shoot him dead. They guy who was about to be 12 pounds lighter will be grateful, even if the cops do decide to freak out.

Bingo. The NRA and GOA need to get out in front of this.

[kcchiefs6465]

Okay can you give an erudite and complicated reason as to why some maniac will blow himself up in a marketplace? Why he'll behead his next door neighbor for not subscribing to his version of religion? Why he'll disown his daughter for being raped?

Geopolitics? Western meddling? Mental Illness? Why is stuff like that so common in that region? Cultural conditioning? Poverty? The Zionist state? The Anglosphere?

I’ m not educated on Islam or ME affairs but you have my attention.
Dying to Win by Robert Pape might be a good place to start with regards to suicide bombings.

Why who will do what? Muslims or a certain sect or even region?

Why are they circumcising males in this country? Does the double standard of barbarity miss you?

As to what has caused it in the region, a misinterpretation or literal interpretation of multiple century old texts and tradition.

They fund the Saudis, the Uzbeks, the Egyptians, the Afghanis, the Pakistanis, the Iraqis the etc.

What happened to Qaddafi?

You cannot ignore decades of intervention in practically every country there and its role in creating this clusterfuck.

I don't want to pay for it, frankly. It is counterproductive to American interests. What they do, sometimes, and what occurs often throughout various countries is horrible. It is a crime. America is not the police man, though they often play the part.

What's common of this region is more shocking than what's common in their region.

[Miss Annie]

I've read Sun Tzu.

As to reading the Qu'ran, I frankly will never. I am somewhat familiar with it. Less so than the Bible, but familiar with it nonetheless..

I actually enjoy your posts. They prove that it is possibe to discuss "hot button topics" without treating each other like assholes.
I can understand not wanting to read it. There are a lot of things I don't want to read too, but I believe that knowledge is power. Even if you don't want to read it, I would maybe suggest becoming a little more familiar with it.



I'd simply remind you of some of the rather peculiar teachings of the Bible. Or any other despicable thing a Christian has done. Because that's an argument, I assume?
Yes, somewhat my argument. Here is the difference between the "peculiar" teachings in the Bible, and the "peculiar" teachings of the Koran. Christians understand that the "peculiar" teachings are more of a "record of history" rather than anything that should be followed today. And as a matter of fact, Jesus even taught so. I will give you an example.
The Bible's history included stonings, but Jesus stated... "you who are without sin throw the first stone". So Jesus doesn't want anyone stoning anyone. Jesus stated that his followers are to "love their enemies". The Koran teaches to kill your enemies and defines "enemies" as unbelievers. The Koran does not have a "historic element" to it. All of those "peculiar" teachings are for today, not just a record of history. The Hadiths are records of Mohammed's history, and they are vicious and violent and to be followed today.



Are there radical jihadists? Yes. Has the problem been exacerbated by decades of US foolish policy? Yes.
I completely agree. I am NOT for intervention. I absolutely agree that the interventions have created the problems. But, ... here is my point that is lost on most. The reason for the interventions is not ALL because of money. Oh I am not going to disagree that it plays a part in it. And it definitely motivates participants to engage as well. But..... the reasons that we have had so many "radical creating" interventions is because for decades the leaders have been carrying water for / doing the will of / and probably part of The Muslim Brotherhood organization and Saudi, and now Turkey as well. ALL of the interventions since Reagan's days have done nothing but to radicalize. Clinton was no different than Bush or Obama. Hitlery did the same as Sec of State. Does they "why" matter? YES!! The why matters. Because as long as we are carrying that water / doing the will of / and have leaders that are affiliated with the MB - the interventions WILL NOT STOP. You will be lied to and told that they will...... just like Obama has done.


Even if I believed that 'they' all (freedom cabbage rings a bell) wished to impose Sharia on the United States I am left hearing the words of the late Smedley Butler. What, logistically, would you expect an invasion of the United States to cost?
It doesn't matter what it would cost if the enemy is entrenched in the leadership of the country.
Ok, let's pretend that you don't believe me on that. Cost would not be an issue with ISIS selling 3 million dollars worth of oil a day and with the backing of Qatar and Turkey. Either way cost of invasion is a non issue.


Or are you simply worried of the lone attackers? I assure you the policy as it stands does more to promote that than any congressional act of war would. People who previously revered the United States, after their family was erroneously murdered have said as much. That rather than living practically family-less, they'd sooner strap on a bomb and kill as many servicemen as possible.
I have no disagreement with you here. My entire point is NOT invasion. I am actually totally against invasion. Any type of military action right now with the "rebel backers" and "al qaeda" funders we have in office is just STUPID. The whole point is not to attack ISIS, it is to overthrow Assad. Why? Because Assad wants a secular country and keeps the radicalization in check.
Again, in order to stop the interventions - we need to follow in Egypt's footsteps and recognize the terrorists leading our country and get them the hell out!! Egypt has outlawed and declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization. That is exactly what we need to do! We need to have a wake up call and understand that there is more than just money fueling these interventions or we will never stop it.


We shouldn't be there. Further being there is only extending this perpetual conflict further into perpetuity.
I agree, I am not advocating for Intervention, I am actually totally against it. We do however, need to get this country's leadership cleaned out of these traitors that are working for the benefit and also terrorization of other countries.

Also, understand, I am not totally anti muslim. Nor do I think we need to have a war on Islam. But we do need to recognize what these values do to our leadership and be much more discerning of who we allow in our leadership. Listen, Assad and El-Sisi are Muslims. They at least understand the concept of which organizations are terroristic in nature and which ones are not.

Here is a thread I started a couple of weeks ago. Please, please, please, understand that I am NOT FOR INTERVENTION. Just cleaning house!!!!!
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460202-10-reasons-to-oppose-Obama-s-ISIS-war

[navy-vet]

I actually enjoy your posts. They prove that it is possibe to discuss "hot button topics" without treating each other like assholes.
I can understand not wanting to read it. There are a lot of things I don't want to read too, but I believe that knowledge is power. Even if you don't want to read it, I would maybe suggest becoming a little more familiar with it.




Yes, somewhat my argument. Here is the difference between the "peculiar" teachings in the Bible, and the "peculiar" teachings of the Koran. Christians understand that the "peculiar" teachings are more of a "record of history" rather than anything that should be followed today. And as a matter of fact, Jesus even taught so. I will give you an example.
The Bible's history included stonings, but Jesus stated... "you who are without sin throw the first stone". So Jesus doesn't want anyone stoning anyone. Jesus stated that his followers are to "love their enemies". The Koran teaches to kill your enemies and defines "enemies" as unbelievers. The Koran does not have a "historic element" to it. All of those "peculiar" teachings are for today, not just a record of history. The Hadiths are records of Mohammed's history, and they are vicious and violent and to be followed today.



I completely agree. I am NOT for intervention. I absolutely agree that the interventions have created the problems. But, ... here is my point that is lost on most. The reason for the interventions is not ALL because of money. Oh I am not going to disagree that it plays a part in it. And it definitely motivates participants to engage as well. But..... the reasons that we have had so many "radical creating" interventions is because for decades the leaders have been carrying water for / doing the will of / and probably part of The Muslim Brotherhood organization and Saudi, and now Turkey as well. ALL of the interventions since Reagan's days have done nothing but to radicalize. Clinton was no different than Bush or Obama. Hitlery did the same as Sec of State. Does they "why" matter? YES!! The why matters. Because as long as we are carrying that water / doing the will of / and have leaders that are affiliated with the MB - the interventions WILL NOT STOP. You will be lied to and told that they will...... just like Obama has done.


It doesn't matter what it would cost if the enemy is entrenched in the leadership of the country.
Ok, let's pretend that you don't believe me on that. Cost would not be an issue with ISIS selling 3 million dollars worth of oil a day and with the backing of Qatar and Turkey. Either way cost of invasion is a non issue.


I have no disagreement with you here. My entire point is NOT invasion. I am actually totally against invasion. Any type of military action right now with the "rebel backers" and "al qaeda" funders we have in office is just STUPID. The whole point is not to attack ISIS, it is to overthrow Assad. Why? Because Assad wants a secular country and keeps the radicalization in check.
Again, in order to stop the interventions - we need to follow in Egypt's footsteps and recognize the terrorists leading our country and get them the hell out!! Egypt has outlawed and declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization. That is exactly what we need to do! We need to have a wake up call and understand that there is more than just money fueling these interventions or we will never stop it.


I agree, I am not advocating for Intervention, I am actually totally against it. We do however, need to get this country's leadership cleaned out of these traitors that are working for the benefit and also terrorization of other countries.

Also, understand, I am not totally anti muslim. Nor do I think we need to have a war on Islam. But we do need to recognize what these values do to our leadership and be much more discerning of who we allow in our leadership. Listen, Assad and El-Sisi are Muslims. They at least understand the concept of which organizations are terroristic in nature and which ones are not.



Here is a thread I started a couple of weeks ago. Please, please, please, understand that I am NOT FOR INTERVENTION. Just cleaning house!!!!!
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460202-10-reasons-to-oppose-Obama-s-ISIS-war

c'est magnifique!

[Brett85]

I actually enjoy your posts. They prove that it is possibe to discuss "hot button topics" without treating each other like assholes.

You could've fooled me.


Must spread some rep around.

I really hope you are a shill.

Because let's be honest, if you truly are that goddamn dumb, there is no hope for this country. This thread, and your posts in particular are so full of fail that I'll probably just take a hiatus from this website.


You are on another level TC. People type page after page for you, you appear to read it, and then you say something so incredibly stupid (which was already addressed multiple times by multiple people) that I can do nothing but shake my head. I am tired of responding to you. I'd rather forget people like you exist and the ignore feature is an annoyance. Please. If you are not paid to produce apathy, pick up a book.


Are you a product of paint thinner?

[Dr.3D]

You could've fooled me.
LOL, nobody said he has much tact.

[kcchiefs6465]

LOL, nobody said he has much tact.
Me and TC have a relationship of sorts.

You could type the guy a thousand words, he'll concede the argument, a couple days later he says the same exact thing as was previously rebutted.

Not to mention that he cannot respond without misrepresenting a position. You literally can ask him, "Please don't misinterpret this section this way" and what does he do? He fallaciously misrepresents what you've asked him not to misrepresent.

So yes, he gets, "Are you a product of paint thinner" etc. It's only been years that I've been talking to him and he has acted the same way throughout it. By this time, all of the reading material I've suggested over the years could have long been read. Yet he won't read a simple article. Or he does and responds some, "Yeah, but...." and proceeds to say something so damn dumb I'm left speechless.

Speak against WWII? You want Hitler to rule the world. Speak against the DUI police state? You want babies murdered.

I doubt at times that he even wants liberty and suspect that he is simply here to offer moderate proposals and stifle discussion.

[navy-vet]

Me and TC have a relationship of sorts.

You could type the guy a thousand words, he'll concede the argument, a couple days later he says the same exact thing as was previously rebutted.

Not to mention that he cannot respond without misrepresenting a position. You literally can ask him, "Please don't misinterpret this section this way" and what does he do? He fallaciously misrepresents what you've asked him not to misrepresent.

So yes, he gets, "Are you a product of paint thinner" etc. It's only been years that I've been talking to him and he has acted the same way throughout it. By this time, all of the reading material I've suggested over the years could have long been read. Yet he won't read a simple article. Or he does and responds some, "Yeah, but...." and proceeds to say something so damn dumb I'm left speechless.

Speak against WWII? You want Hitler to rule the world. Speak against the DUI police state? You want babies murdered.

I doubt at times that he even wants liberty and suspect that he is simply here to offer moderate proposals and stifle discussion.

I had a dog like that...

[navy-vet]

:D

[FloralScent]

Of course. "Just crazy" people convert to Islam, try to convert coworkers, go on infidel rants and cut women's heads off...

Yes, I know you're trying to be sarcastic, but yes, only a crazy person is going to cut some poor woman's head off. That shit you're being spoon fed about ISIS(lol) is pure nonsense designed for the consumption of toothless rubes.

[FloralScent]

Okay can you give an erudite and complicated reason as to why some maniac will blow himself up in a marketplace? Why he'll behead his next door neighbor for not subscribing to his version of religion? Why he'll disown his daughter for being raped?

Geopolitics? Western meddling? Mental Illness? Why is stuff like that so common in that region? Cultural conditioning? Poverty? The Zionist state? The Anglosphere?

I’ m not educated on Islam or ME affairs but you have my attention.

Reading your posts is like watching the goddamn newz on the idiot box. You should try and be a bit more subtle.

[pessimist]

Reading your posts is like watching the goddamn newz on the idiot box. You should try and be a bit more subtle.


lol Why? Because I don't kiss the asses of camel riding authoritarians stuck in the 9th century who would slit my throat for not believing in their god?

I don't support wiping out villages or uncle Sam whipping his cock out to show the world how badass he is.

In context I was talking about those psychopathic radical Islamists who like to blow shit up and cut peoples heads off. I don't think US intervention is causing them to walk into a warehouse with a machete and behead a woman.

That is all I was saying.

[enhanced_deficit]

pessimist, you seem to be informed about mideast and US affairs and motivations. Care to give your views on below question?

On a related motivation question that has been coming up now and then, what in your view was motivation of people who brought down wtc1/2/7?

Couple of other people who showed some expertise on mideast religions/motivation seemed to have avoided answering this question.

[pessimist]

pessimist, you seem to be informed about mideast and US affairs and motivations. Care to give your views on below question?

On a related motivation question that has been coming up now and then, what in your view was motivation of people who brought down wtc1/2/7?

Couple of other people who showed some expertise on mideast religions/motivation seemed to have avoided answering this question.



Dude... I'm of a computer science background- I have little knowledge of the history of that region or ME affairs, nor do I really care.

Anyway- we are talking about different things here. The entire Middle East is a meatgrinder- ethnic/religious conflict is everywhere you turn. This likely would exist without the Anglosphere's meddling.

The big bad US for god knows why is now heavily involved in that region. A bunch of dudes are pissed- not only at our involvement in the region but of our undying support of the Zionist state. Of course there is a political element and reasoning behind their hatred of us. That is separate from the inherent violent tendencies of a rather LARGE subgroup of people who claim to be Muslims. For god sakes, they're slaughtering each other en masse over an interpretation of a 'holy' book. I mean, Christians used to the same, granted, but at least they’re not back in the 8th century anymore.

And of course not *all* Muslims are violent barbarians but a shitload of them are. And yes, I agree we are responsible for creating more terrorists, but seriously, blowing yourself up in a marketplace, disowning your daughter for being raped, lashing your wife for showing a slab of skin, and firebombing schools seems to quite widespread over there and has nothing at all to do with Uncle Sam.

Look at the city of Malmo, Sweden. It has radically changed in the last two decades. Something is obviously in the culture.

I. Do. Not. Support. Invasion. How can you invade a group without a nation? Nor do I check under my bed for ISIS at night. However, I do see them as dangerous and I don't think the US is solely to blame for their barbarism.

[moostraks]

lol Why? Because I don't kiss the asses of camel riding authoritarians stuck in the 9th century who would slit my throat for not believing in their god?

I don't support wiping out villages or uncle Sam whipping his cock out to show the world how badass he is.

In context I was talking about those psychopathic radical Islamists who like to blow shit up and cut peoples heads off. I don't think US intervention is causing them to walk into a warehouse with a machete and behead a woman.

That is all I was saying.


Best defense against lies is to be not gullible, but practioners of modified French guillotine do not belong to a single religion. One min google search found below cases.
But war oriented media like Drudge/Wapo/Christians4Israel etc try to highlight/exaggerate/package news that suits their foreign bombings/occupations agendas.

Man gets 14 years in cartel beheading in Arizona
www.denverpost.com/ci_23199286?source=bbThe (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_23199286?source=bbThe) Denver Post
May 8, 2013 - PHOENIX—A man was sentenced to 14 years in prison Wednesday for his ... Martin Alejandro Cota-Monroy at an apartment in the Phoenix ...

Israel Refuses to Extradite a Murder Suspect
Israel has decided not to extradite a Maryland high school student wanted for murder in the dismemberment of another teen-ager, saying he would be tried there instead.
On the day Mr. Tello's body was found, real estate agents who were supervising repairs at a house recently put on the market in Aspen Hill stopped by, noticed a stench and found the head and torso wrapped in garbage bags. The police said that near the body they found an electric saw apparently used to dismember Mr. Tello's body. A trail of blood was found along a wooded path leads from Mr. Sheinbein's home to the where the body was found, they said.
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/01/us/israel-refuses-to-extradite-a-murder-suspect.html

Phoenix man gets 8 years for attempted beheading
July 24, 2014
http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/arizonarepublic/brightcove/29901534001/29901534001_2532097116001_vs-51d995cfe4b09579811d6985-1471893705001.jpg
(Photo: Maricopa County Sheriff's Office)
Hansen, 36, pleaded guilty in June to attacking his mother at a Phoenix restaurant on July 2, 2013. Police said he knocked his mother unconscious, stabbed her in the neck and attempted to cut off her head.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/07/24/phoenix-attempted-beheading-sentencing/13090489


2003: Washington Post ran 27 editorials in favor of Iraq invasion (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?458793-2003-Washington-Post-ran-27-editorials-in-favor-of-Iraq-invasion&)


Drudge probably ran 127 headlines to cultivate Iraq war mania.

Now a related motivation question that has been coming up now and then, what in your view was motivation of people who brought down wtc1/2/7?


Dude... I'm of a computer science background- I have little knowledge of the history of that region or ME affairs, nor do I really care.

Anyway- we are talking about different things here. The entire Middle East is a meatgrinder- ethnic/religious conflict is everywhere you turn. This likely would exist without the Anglosphere's meddling.

The big bad US for god knows why is now heavily involved in that region. A bunch of dudes are pissed- not only at our involvement in the region but of our undying support of the Zionist state. Of course there is a political element and reasoning behind their hatred of us. That is separate from the inherent violent tendencies of a rather LARGE subgroup of people who claim to be Muslims. For god sakes, they're slaughtering each other en masse over an interpretation of a 'holy' book. I mean, Christians used to the same, granted, but at least they’re not back in the 8th century anymore.

And of course not *all* Muslims are violent barbarians but a shitload of them are. And yes, I agree we are responsible for creating more terrorists, but seriously, blowing yourself up in a marketplace, disowning your daughter for being raped, lashing your wife for showing a slab of skin, and firebombing schools seems to quite widespread over there and has nothing at all to do with Uncle Sam.

Look at the city of Malmo, Sweden. It has radically changed in the last two decades. Something is obviously in the culture.

I. Do. Not. Support. Invasion. How can you invade a group without a nation? Nor do I check under my bed for ISIS at night. However, I do see them as dangerous and I don't think the US is solely to blame for their barbarism.

Well, you asked kc your question almost a half hour after enhanced posted the above material^^^ showing beheading is not limited to the ME but the connection media is making does serve to stir up fence sitting Americans through fear to support the war machine. There is plenty of barbarism masquerading as civility in the U.S. I don't find drone bombing foreign countries very civil or see murders of the children of the ME by western forces as merely collateral damage. Take some time and look at the photos and grasp what a horrific death the children experienced then try to say with a straight face the ME has the corner market on barbarism. All very sanitized language is used when discussing so called necessary evil. The media ignores numerous stories of barbaric deaths committed in the inner cities because they don't serve the particular agenda du jour.

[pessimist]

Okay I have no interest in 'debating' this. It's just going to be a circular emotive argument where one has to walk some politically correct tightrope in order not to offend. Screw that.

Let's just leave with: A lot of humans are violent and uncivilized creatures who abuse their power or distort an ideology to support their barbarism.

[moostraks]

Okay I have no interest in 'debating' this. It's just going to be a circular emotive argument where one has to walk some politically correct tightrope in order not to offend. Screw that.

Let's just leave with: A lot of humans are violent and uncivilized creatures who abuse their power or distort an ideology to support their barbarism.

Well I doubt you'd find people who would gripe at you needing to be p.c. here but you will find that collectivizing will stir the hornets nest. :D The nuance of this is often lost on new posters.

[pcosmar]

I’ m not educated on Islam or ME affairs but you have my attention.

I'm pretty sure this idiot wasn't either.

[enhanced_deficit]

The big bad US for god knows why is now heavily involved in that region. A bunch of dudes are pissed- not only at our involvement in the region but of our undying support of the Zionist state. Of course there is a political element and reasoning behind their hatred of us. That is separate from the inherent violent tendencies of a rather LARGE subgroup of people who claim to be Muslims. For god sakes, they're slaughtering each other en masse over an interpretation of a 'holy' book. I mean, Christians used to the same, granted, but at least they’re not back in the 8th century anymore.


FP Report Confirms: USA Helped Iraq Use Sarin and Mustard Gas on Iran (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?425375-FP-Report-Confirms-USA-Helped-Iraq-Use-Sarin-and-Mustard-Gas-on-Iran&)


While your observations and citations seem factual, your generalizations seem incorrect. Heroshima and Nagasaki horrors in two populated cities did not take place in 8th century exactly even though most of your observations have merit.



For those suggesting that the fired worker above with Jesus Christ's tatoo on his chest and who engaged in a brutal violent crime being the new leading poster boy of violent ideologies that we should fear, a simple question.

A below has engaged in more horrific violence or B?


Alleged Violent Criminal A

http://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/alton-nolan.jpg?w=640&h=297 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=I9WnoTJGQTP2AM&tbnid=ANWN1RO66B93pM:&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fheavy.com%2Fnews%2F2014%2F09%2Fal ton-nolen-oklahoma-beheading-colleen-hufford-mark-vaughn%2F&ei=0uwlVNTGFdW5ggSB6IJw&bvm=bv.76247554,d.eXY&psig=AFQjCNGMls-KitLcLBA2uYMWevv7T4vFqA&ust=1411857667751925)





Alleged Violent Criminal B


http://willyloman.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/drone-kids.jpg?w=468&h=468 (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=drone%20children&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=TcWtj3VsQDfUEM&tbnid=8pK5pO6kTF7ozM:&ved=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwillyloman.wordpress.com%2F2012%2 F12%2F22%2Fsandy-hook-shootings%2F&ei=UDjmUYfeIa_e4AOtlIGABQ&bvm=bv.49405654,d.dmg&psig=AFQjCNFlD7qyQNrugbHgbuxAiakwXlaZ-Q&ust=1374128411299069)

[Weston White]

There was a draft at the time, if not, I wouldn't have had to go. It's not like I fell for anything.

Except that it was a blatant abuse of the power to draft (rendering it legally invalid and unconstitutional), meanwhile, never did Congress sanction any Declaration of War to support any such necessity to draft... Moreover, the Gulf of Tonkin incident that paved the justification for America’s committing genocide against the Vietnamese (merely a poor under developed puppet nation of first Japan and then France), under the properly named “American War” was completely faked, involving McNamara in a traitorous conspiracy and war crimes and crimes against humanity by the soiled mouth of the felonious Henry Kissinger.

[kcchiefs6465]

There was a draft at the time, if not, I wouldn't have had to go. It's not like I fell for anything.
You are falling for it now with regards to this unimaginable Islamic threat.

Not that I can particularly down the choice you made. I had family who was drafted and affected by that war. I won't be going anywhere until they roll up on the shores of the Carolinas. I don't care who votes to draft me for what.

[Weston White]

Now a related motivation question that has been coming up now and then, what in your view was motivation of people who brought down wtc1/2/7?

To justify the rollout of a nationalized police force with virtually limitless powers and equip it with advancing tech-gadgetry; to establish acceptable excuses for eliminating constitutional constraints; to merge federal agencies, including U.S. Military personnel, with local state agencies in regional crime prevention operations; to implement a new “civilian” arm of government that possesses law enforcement and arrest powers, under the authority of the DHS; to program local law enforcement to operate within a strict militant mindset; to provide a catalyst for the creation of brand new industry, 24-hour news networks/channels, and ensure they retain a steady viewership; to preoccupy, inundate, and overwhelm the “civilian” masses with so much bad news, unfolding events, “BREAKING NEWS”, “ALERTS”, and nonsensical drama that they fail to grasp the simply concept that all the while their own nation is printing fiat currency at such an astounding rate that within the coming decade or two they will certainly wakeup finding themselves to have been conquered and left both penniless and homeless in the very nation that their forefathers had at once conquered; and of course to garner undying support for what may only be properly described as being blatantly racist, anti-nation, and anti-religion, using a modernized form of witch-hunting, Christian Crusade, and Spanish Inquisition roll-your-own tactics dubbed the one-hundred-year “war on terror”.

[kcchiefs6465]

I actually enjoy your posts. They prove that it is possibe to discuss "hot button topics" without treating each other like assholes.
I can understand not wanting to read it. There are a lot of things I don't want to read too, but I believe that knowledge is power. Even if you don't want to read it, I would maybe suggest becoming a little more familiar with it.
I am at times crass and can be easily annoyed but regardless my heart is in the right place. I simply have lost tolerance for a lot of the stupid things being repeated day in and day out. I understand everyone has their own perception of things but regardless déjà vu being used as a descriptor would be an understatement. And as they say of those who do not study history...

I apologize it took me so long to respond. It's been a crazy couple of weeks.



Yes, somewhat my argument. Here is the difference between the "peculiar" teachings in the Bible, and the "peculiar" teachings of the Koran. Christians understand that the "peculiar" teachings are more of a "record of history" rather than anything that should be followed today.
Some Christians more-so than others. There are going to be "strict" interpretations as well as "loose" interpretations. There are going to be different sects viewing the gospel one way or another, tradition and ceremonies are going to vary. While most Christians in this country could be established as non-violent followers of that particular faith, there are those, who self-identify as Christians though who else wise might be ostracized by certain Christians (though they often aren't) that commit evil acts. It is perceived around the world in these various regions affected much the way I imagine Christians perceive it, in the opposite regard, here. That is that there is a war being waged on their religion and that it is not immoral, or could even be called upon by God, to combat said war. Whether that war be on Christians or Muslims and whether such claims have any validity being largely irrelevant to the conversation.



And as a matter of fact, Jesus even taught so. I will give you an example.
The Bible's history included stonings, but Jesus stated... "you who are without sin throw the first stone". So Jesus doesn't want anyone stoning anyone. Jesus stated that his followers are to "love their enemies".
Before we travel down this road I'll just make it perfectly clear that I am not a student of theology. I am familiar with the Bible simply by having been brought up as a Christian. I would concede that I am not the best person to speak to with regards to theological or religious debates. Hence, I never travel to the Religion Subforum and don't particularly care to discuss religion outside of narrow terms.



The Koran teaches to kill your enemies and defines "enemies" as unbelievers. The Koran does not have a "historic element" to it. All of those "peculiar" teachings are for today, not just a record of history. The Hadiths are records of Mohammed's history, and they are vicious and violent and to be followed today.
What do you mean by "historic element?"

This would fall under the previous mentioning of mine that various sects, regions, etc. are going to interpret things various ways. Most Muslims are honest, God fearing types who simply wish to live their lives in peace and disassociate themselves from these radical jihadists.

There have been people to bastardize the word of god to serve their purposes or to fit their worldview since time immemorial. Probably at least since text was utilized or even as agrarian means of commerce (and thus communication) were established.

I'm outside of my comfort zone on the discussion regarding the various religious texts. Hopefully this somewhat addresses this quotation.



I completely agree. I am NOT for intervention. I absolutely agree that the interventions have created the problems. But, ... here is my point that is lost on most. The reason for the interventions is not ALL because of money.
There are various reasons for intervention and I'd say that practically, if not exclusively, they all have their roots in gaining wealth/power. So while it is accurate to say that not all intervention has its roots in money (and I'd possibly even contend that point depending on what precisely you are speaking of) we cannot ignore the evidence of all of the ones that were based with the intention to extract wealth or to plunder. War being the health of the state, further bringing a hodgepodge of people holding various interests and concerns into a rather homogeneous glob certainly cannot be overlooked. Geopolitics, etc. being another reason the United States is sucked into war. Of course there is that off chance that a war is fought defensively. Certainly none in my lifetime have been such endeavors and absent arguing the case for WWII, not even any of the last 200 years. And when you look at the interventions of the last two hundred years, a pattern certainly is evident. One thing anyone paying attention will notice is that certain folks or industries profit greatly. Another thing that is evident (even if the result of the intervention strays from the intended desires) is the maintenance of a geopolitical power structure. This is especially evident since the time of Teddy Roosevelt.



Oh I am not going to disagree that it plays a part in it. And it definitely motivates participants to engage as well. But..... the reasons that we have had so many "radical creating" interventions is because for decades the leaders have been carrying water for / doing the will of / and probably part of The Muslim Brotherhood organization and Saudi, and now Turkey as well.
I'd [possibly] contest all of this Muslim Brotherhood water holding talk (outside of a narrow sense). The relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia is mutually "beneficial" (for a few). Saudi Arabia receives US funding to build power plants, water treatment facilities, establish sanitation services, etc. with the stipulation that the money is to be expended on American corporations. In return the Saudis agree not to question the dollar's value as the world reserve currency and agree to accept them exclusively for oil. They are also armed heavily to have the ability to quell any disturbance or protest in that country. This of course is through the recycled dollars (which often never even leave the United States) being given to various corporations. It isn't that the United States is holding water for the Saudis, though they are, it is that they are both holding water for each other. The dollars created out of nothing and given away like candy doesn't simply debase this currency. It incentivizes corruption in political elections. Corporations have a major stake in the hiring of lobbyists, etc. and the control of politicians.

Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins is a good read on some of that subject matter.



ALL of the interventions since Reagan's days have done nothing but to radicalize. Clinton was no different than Bush or Obama. Hitlery did the same as Sec of State. Does they "why" matter? YES!! The why matters. Because as long as we are carrying that water / doing the will of / and have leaders that are affiliated with the MB - the interventions WILL NOT STOP. You will be lied to and told that they will...... just like Obama has done.
If you looked at the intervention of Syria in 1949, the intervention in Iran in 1953, the intervention in Indonesia throughout the '50s and '60s, the intervention in Iraq in '63 in Egypt in... in Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. the record shows that it wasn't simply the last thirty years. They've been over there meddling for quite some time. Their continued support of Israel being a large radicalizing factor as well.

If you look into the SAVAK, for instance, the Iranian intelligence service trained and aligned with the CIA when the Shah was placed into power, I mean, you can see a reason some have grievances. The same goes for any one of those countries.



It doesn't matter what it would cost if the enemy is entrenched in the leadership of the country.
You are off on your analysis. While they may be enemies of the people and squander great amounts of wealth, they are not as connected as I believe [?] you are inferring them to be. Furthermore, the relationship is symbiotic and isn't as cut and dry as the United States holding water for the Muslim Brotherhood. There are other factors at play.



Ok, let's pretend that you don't believe me on that. Cost would not be an issue with ISIS selling 3 million dollars worth of oil a day and with the backing of Qatar and Turkey. Either way cost of invasion is a non issue.

To invade this country on a scale not regarded as their pity would cost such an insurmountable amount that it is simply unfeasible. To transport, feed, fuel, arm, and pay these soldiers.... no country is up to that task. Three million dollars a day is a joke (that is about two Cruise missiles without the platform to launch them). Qatar and Turkey's entire economies could be diverted to a legitimate invasion and I doubt I'd much take it seriously (though I admittedly haven't looked at the figures). If the United States wanted to, those countries would be glass. And who are the Qataris or the Turks to slaughter the golden goose?



I have no disagreement with you here. My entire point is NOT invasion. I am actually totally against invasion. Any type of military action right now with the "rebel backers" and "al qaeda" funders we have in office is just STUPID. The whole point is not to attack ISIS, it is to overthrow Assad. Why? Because Assad wants a secular country and keeps the radicalization in check.
Indeed.


Again, in order to stop the interventions - we need to follow in Egypt's footsteps and recognize the terrorists leading our country and get them the hell out!! Egypt has outlawed and declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization. That is exactly what we need to do! We need to have a wake up call and understand that there is more than just money fueling these interventions or we will never stop it.
I'd be content with them being tried as war criminals.



I agree, I am not advocating for Intervention, I am actually totally against it. We do however, need to get this country's leadership cleaned out of these traitors that are working for the benefit and also terrorization of other countries.
Yes they are.



Also, understand, I am not totally anti muslim. Nor do I think we need to have a war on Islam. But we do need to recognize what these values do to our leadership and be much more discerning of who we allow in our leadership. Listen, Assad and El-Sisi are Muslims. They at least understand the concept of which organizations are terroristic in nature and which ones are not.
With regards to Egypt, they also accept quite a bit of money. It's not over, there. With regards to Assad, the United States has him on their sights as they did Hussein or Qaddafi. Assad laughed when Qaddafi stated as much but rest assured no matter what the propaganda campaign costs, they will get Assad. People are forgetful, naïve and easily frightened creatures. They will get Assad. And the people who protested it will cheer. Or they won't. But what does it really matter to them so long as they do not drop the balancing pole on their tightrope circus act?



Here is a thread I started a couple of weeks ago. Please, please, please, understand that I am NOT FOR INTERVENTION. Just cleaning house!!!!!
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?460202-10-reasons-to-oppose-Obama-s-ISIS-war
I'll take a look at them. Thanks.

[nobody's_hero]

You know the real solution to all of this is for everyone to go armed. Someone yanks out a machete and starts going bonkers after someone, shoot him. Shoot him dead. They guy who was about to be 12 pounds lighter will be grateful, even if the cops do decide to freak out.

Indeed. Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

[Ender]

I am at times crass and can be easily annoyed but regardless my heart is in the right place. I simply have lost tolerance for a lot of the stupid things being repeated day in and day out. I understand everyone has their own perception of things but regardless déjà vu being used as a descriptor would be an understatement. And as they say of those who do not study history...

I apologize it took me so long to respond. It's been a crazy couple of weeks.


Some Christians more-so than others. There are going to be "strict" interpretations as well as "loose" interpretations. There are going to be different sects viewing the gospel one way or another, tradition and ceremonies are going to vary. While most Christians in this country could be established as non-violent followers of that particular faith, there are those, who self-identify as Christians though who else wise might be ostracized by certain Christians (though they often aren't) that commit evil acts. It is perceived around the world in these various regions affected much the way I imagine Christians perceive it, in the opposite regard, here. That is that there is a war being waged on their religion and that it is not immoral, or could even be called upon by God, to combat said war. Whether that war be on Christians or Muslims and whether such claims have any validity being largely irrelevant to the conversation.


Before we travel down this road I'll just make it perfectly clear that I am not a student of theology. I am familiar with the Bible simply by having been brought up as a Christian. I would concede that I am not the best person to speak to with regards to theological or religious debates. Hence, I never travel to the Religion Subforum and don't particularly care to discuss religion outside of narrow terms.



What do you mean by "historic element?"

This would fall under the previous mentioning of mine that various sects, regions, etc. are going to interpret things various ways. Most Muslims are honest, God fearing types who simply wish to live their lives in peace and disassociate themselves from these radical jihadists.

There have been people to bastardize the word of god to serve their purposes or to fit their worldview since time immemorial. Probably at least since text was utilized or even as agrarian means of commerce (and thus communication) were established.

I'm outside of my comfort zone on the discussion regarding the various religious texts. Hopefully this somewhat addresses this quotation.


There are various reasons for intervention and I'd say that practically, if not exclusively, they all have their roots in gaining wealth/power. So while it is accurate to say that not all intervention has its roots in money (and I'd possibly even contend that point depending on what precisely you are speaking of) we cannot ignore the evidence of all of the ones that were based with the intention to extract wealth or to plunder. War being the health of the state, further bringing a hodgepodge of people holding various interests and concerns into a rather homogeneous glob certainly cannot be overlooked. Geopolitics, etc. being another reason the United States is sucked into war. Of course there is that off chance that a war is fought defensively. Certainly none in my lifetime have been such endeavors and absent arguing the case for WWII, not even any of the last 200 years. And when you look at the interventions of the last two hundred years, a pattern certainly is evident. One thing anyone paying attention will notice is that certain folks or industries profit greatly. Another thing that is evident (even if the result of the intervention strays from the intended desires) is the maintenance of a geopolitical power structure. This is especially evident since the time of Teddy Roosevelt.


I'd [possibly] contest all of this Muslim Brotherhood water holding talk (outside of a narrow sense). The relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia is mutually "beneficial" (for a few). Saudi Arabia receives US funding to build power plants, water treatment facilities, establish sanitation services, etc. with the stipulation that the money is to be expended on American corporations. In return the Saudis agree not to question the dollar's value as the world reserve currency and agree to accept them exclusively for oil. They are also armed heavily to have the ability to quell any disturbance or protest in that country. This of course is through the recycled dollars (which often never even leave the United States) being given to various corporations. It isn't that the United States is holding water for the Saudis, though they are, it is that they are both holding water for each other. The dollars created out of nothing and given away like candy doesn't simply debase this currency. It incentivizes corruption in political elections. Corporations have a major stake in the hiring of lobbyists, etc. and the control of politicians.

Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins is a good read on some of that subject matter. (YES!)


If you looked at the intervention of Syria in 1949, the intervention in Iran in 1953, the intervention in Indonesia throughout the '50s and '60s, the intervention in Iraq in '63 in Egypt in... in Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. the record shows that it wasn't simply the last thirty years. They've been over there meddling for quite some time. Their continued support of Israel being a large radicalizing factor as well.

If you look into the SAVAK, for instance, the Iranian intelligence service trained and aligned with the CIA when the Shah was placed into power, I mean, you can see a reason some have grievances. The same goes for any one of those countries.


You are off on your analysis. While they may be enemies of the people and squander great amounts of wealth, they are not as connected as I believe [?] you are inferring them to be. Furthermore, the relationship is symbiotic and isn't as cut and dry as the United States holding water for the Muslim Brotherhood. There are other factors at play.


To invade this country on a scale not regarded as their pity would cost such an insurmountable amount that it is simply unfeasible. To transport, feed, fuel, arm, and pay these soldiers.... no country is up to that task. Three million dollars a day is a joke (that is about two Cruise missiles without the platform to launch them). Qatar and Turkey's entire economies could be diverted to a legitimate invasion and I doubt I'd much take it seriously (though I admittedly haven't looked at the figures). If the United States wanted to, those countries would be glass. And who are the Qataris or the Turks to slaughter the golden goose?


Indeed.


I'd be content with them being tried as war criminals.


Yes they are.


With regards to Egypt, they also accept quite a bit of money. It's not over, there. With regards to Assad, the United States has him on their sights as they did Hussein or Qaddafi. Assad laughed when Qaddafi stated as much but rest assured no matter what the propaganda campaign costs, they will get Assad. People are forgetful, naïve and easily frightened creatures. They will get Assad. And the people who protested it will cheer. Or they won't. But what does it really matter to them so long as they do not drop the balancing pole on their tightrope circus act?


I'll take a look at them. Thanks.

THANK YOU!

I am always amazed at those that talk about evil Islam but think that killing people from afar with drones is so much more civilized. Keeps one's hands so much cleaner. :rolleyes:

And I HAVE read the Koran.

[Miss Annie]

THANK YOU!

I am always amazed at those that talk about evil Islam but think that killing people from afar with drones is so much more civilized. Keeps one's hands so much cleaner. :rolleyes:

And I HAVE read the Koran.

Please do not insinuate that I have EVER approved or advocated for intervention, with boots on the ground, or with drones. I do not and have not. Misleading innuendo. .

[navy-vet]

Please do not insinuate that I have EVER approved or advocated for intervention, with boots on the ground, or with drones. I do not and have not. Misleading innuendo. .
Ender owes you an apology Miss Annie. You couldn't have been clearer in regards to where you stand.

[navy-vet]

Now, ME. on the hand, I was in favor of droning you guys, ender! At least a couple of times I was, like when you were decapitating and burying innocent children for instance.

[kcchiefs6465]

Now, ME. on the hand, I was in favor of droning you guys, ender! At least a couple of times I was, like when you were decapitating and burying innocent children for instance.
Ender is not a Muslim, for one, for two, he is not in the Middle East, and for three, he does not have anything to do with any violence occurring over there. Lest you were inferring with "guys" that I am a Muslim, am in the Middle East, or that I have anything to do with the violence occurring there?

Your post is rather pathetic.

If you'd like to see dismembered children I can show you a dozen of them. All at the hands of drones too. But the difference, most probably, in your mind, is that those children had to die. Far from the innocent title you emotionally used, these children were around [alleged] bad men (absent an errant strike). They shouldn't have been there, FOX News has offered me.

[navy-vet]

Ender is not a Muslim, for one, for two, he is not in the Middle East, and for three, he does not have anything to do with any violence occurring over there. Lest you were inferring with "guys" that I am a Muslim, am in the Middle East, or that I have anything to do with the violence occurring there?

Your post is rather pathetic.

If you'd like to see dismembered children I can show you a dozen of them. All at the hands of drones too. But the difference, most probably, in your mind, is that those children had to die. Far from the innocent title you emotionally used, these children were around [alleged] bad men (absent an errant strike). They shouldn't have been there, FOX News has offered me.
And you like your bud like to color other peoples posts with your own brand of BS don't you? Like taking my comments about favoring the droning of ISIS troops in the open desert as wanting to see "dead children". By the way, are you collecting pictures of dead kids? Now that is truly pathetic...please keep them to yourself.

My comments, incidentally, were directed to someone other than your self, unless you are maintaining a dual persona in here, which really wouldn't surprise me. If not, then it is none of your business.

[kcchiefs6465]

And you like your bud like to color other peoples posts with your own brand of BS don't you? Like taking my comments about favoring the droning of ISIS troops in the open desert as wanting to see "dead children".
You are speaking about what, to be frank, would result in the murder of children as a solution to the beheading of children. The irony is lost on you.

I am bringing up that point that children are [arguably] more gruesomely murdered by drone strikes than the manner in which ISIS is [allegedly] murdering them.

"I was in favor of drone striking you guys"..... tsk. tsk. And people wonder why I cannot be humble and not use ad hominem. Things people say are so fucking stupid I cannot help but call the spade a spade.



By the way, are you collecting pictures of dead kids? Now that is truly pathetic...please keep them to yourself.
I have pictures of murdered children specifically for a discussion such as this. Not to mention I take particular care to know what my extorted tax dollars are going towards.

I have picture of anencephalic babies as well.. but you, you obviously know what I am speaking of. It's odd with that being the case considering you brag about being in favor of drone strikes. You're quite the tough guy.



My comments, incidentally, were directed to someone other than your self, unless you are maintaining a dual persona in here, which really wouldn't surprise me. If not, then it is none of your business.
Again, considering you came to Miss Annie's side to comments that weren't necessarily directed towards her with your lap dog response, I can only imagine (:rolleyes:) how the irony is lost on you.

You specifically addressed Ender, someone who openly talks about his teaching of the Bible, etc. with fallacious nonsense. This is just a joke, right?

[navy-vet]

There you go again with your absurd comparisons of the slaughter of children. You really do have a difficulty in comprehension don't you? Are you so blinded by hate and anger that you just don't understand what is being said because you aren't hearing it, or are you just stupid? I am tired of casting hints to you like "open desert" (i.e. NO CHILDREN ONLY ISIS TROOPS! DUH) and you just rant on and throw out your insults.
Your diatribe is boring and your over use of the word irony is as annoying as it is inappropriate.

[Ender]

Please do not insinuate that I have EVER approved or advocated for intervention, with boots on the ground, or with drones. I do not and have not. Misleading innuendo. .

I don't recall ever mentioning you in my post to kcchiefs6465. I was answering HIM.

[Ender]

Now, ME. on the hand, I was in favor of droning you guys, ender! At least a couple of times I was, like when you were decapitating and burying innocent children for instance.

I am a Scottish Cherokee living in the US of A. I am also a Minister under a Vow of Poverty. AND I am familiar with scripture: Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish

I am amazed at your hate and sense of revenge for things you know nothing about; perhaps you should get yourself over to the ME and then you can tell us all about it, first hand.

[Ender]

You are speaking about what, to be frank, would result in the murder of children as a solution to the beheading of children. The irony is lost on you.

I am bringing up that point that children are [arguably] more gruesomely murdered by drone strikes than the manner in which ISIS is [allegedly] murdering them.

"I was in favor of drone striking you guys"..... tsk. tsk. And people wonder why I cannot be humble and not use ad hominem. People things are said that are so fucking stupid I cannot help but call the spade a spade.



I have pictures of murdered children specifically for a discussion such as this. Not to mention I take particular care to know what my extorted tax dollars are going towards.

I have picture of anencephalic babies as well.. but you, you obviously know what I am speaking of. It's odd that being the case considering you brag about being in favor of drone strikes. You're quite the tough guy.


Again, considering you came to Miss Annie's side to comments that weren't necessarily directed towards her with your lap dog response, I can only imagine (:rolleyes:) how the irony is lost on you.

You specifically addressed Ender, someone who openly talks about his teaching of the Bible, etc. with fallacious nonsense. This is just a joke, right?



Ahhh..... the irony.
THANK YOU.

[navy-vet]

And so it goes with the banding together of the Chamberlains of the 21st century...

[kcchiefs6465]

There you go again with your absurd comparisons of the slaughter of children. You really do have a difficulty in comprehension don't you? Are you so blinded by hate and anger that you just don't understand what is being said because you aren't hearing it, or are you just stupid? I am tired of casting hints to you like "open desert" (i.e. NO CHILDREN ONLY ISIS TROOPS! DUH) and you just rant on and throw out your insults.
Your diatribe is boring and your over use of the word irony is as annoying as it is inappropriate.
You cannot stand in the shallow end of this discussion. Your dribble is rather unneeded and rather than ever responding you'd do yourself a favor to simply read the responses and take in the conversation. That or pick up a damn book.

Your posts in general are bad jokes. When it comes to this topic I find you apologizing after babbling on in response to something not even directed to you, in a way that doesn't even begin to address the substance of the post you were responding to (I am reminded of your out of the blue response and subsequent apology to Green73).

Am I blinded by hate and anger? I am blinded by other's ignorance. Daily. I mean, really.... the information is all available.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F2nPh-6Hxk

[Ender]

And so it goes with the banding together of the Chamberlains of the 21st century...

How about some REAL history:


March Madness, 1939
By Patrick J. Buchanan
April 8, 2009

On Sept. 1, 1939, Hitler’s panzers smashed into Poland. Two days later, an anguished Neville Chamberlain declared war, the most awful war in all of history.

Was the war inevitable? No. No war is inevitable until it has begun. Was it a necessary war? Hearken to Churchill:

“One day, President Roosevelt told me that he was asking publicly for suggestions about what the war should be called. I said at once, ‘The Unnecessary War.’ There never was a war more easy to stop than that which has just wrecked what was left of the world … .”

But if the war need not have happened, what caused it?

Let us go back to Munich.

On Sept. 30, 1938, at Munich, Chamberlain signed away the Sudetenland rather than fight to keep 3.5 million Germans under a Czech rule imposed upon them at the Paris peace conference in violation of Wilson’s principle of self-determination.

Why did Britain not fight?

Because Britain had no alliance with Prague and Chamberlain did not “give two hoots” who ruled the Sudetenland. Also, Britain had no draft, no divisions to send to France, no Spitfires, no support from America or her dominions, no ally save France, who had been told that, if war came, the United States would not deliver the planes France had purchased.

U.S. neutrality laws forbade it.

In his meetings with Chamberlain, Hitler had warned that Poland and Hungary would also be entering claims for ancestral lands ceded to the Czechs at Paris in 1919.

Thus, after Munich, Warsaw had seized coal-rich Teschen, which held tens of thousands of Poles. Hungary, in the “Vienna Award” of Nov. 2, 1938, got back lands in Slovakia and Ruthenia where Hungarians were the majority and Budapest had ruled before 1919.

Neither Britain nor France resisted these border revisions.

Came then March 1939, when Czechoslovakia began to crumble.

On March 10, to crush a Slovakian push for independence, Czech President Emil Hacha ousted Slovak Prime Minister Father Tiso, occupied Bratislava and installed a pro-Prague regime.

On March 11, Tiso fled to Vienna and appealed to Berlin.

On March 13, Tiso met Hitler, who told him that if he did not declare independence immediately, Germany would not interfere with Hungary’s re-annexation of Slovakia. Budapest was moving troops to the border.

On March 14, Slovakia declared independence. Ruthenia followed, dissolving what was left of Czechoslovakia.

Adm. Horthy, told by Hitler he could re-annex Ruthenia but must keep his hands off Slovakia, occupied Ruthenia.

Hacha now asked to meet with Hitler to get the same guarantee of independence Slovakia had gotten. But Hitler bullied Hacha into making the Czech remnant a protectorate of Germany.

Thus, six months after Munich, the Germans of Czechoslovakia were where they wished to be, under German rule. The Poles were under Polish rule. The Hungarians were under Hungarian rule. And the Slovaks were under Slovak rule in their new nation.

But 500,000 Ruthenians were back under Budapest, and 7 million Czechs were back under German rule — this time Berlin, not Vienna.

Ethnonationalism had torn Czechoslovakia apart as it had the parent Hapsburg Empire. Yet, no vital British interest was imperiled.

And though Hitler had used brutal Bismarckian diplomacy, not force, Chamberlain was humiliated. The altarpiece of his career, the Munich accord, was now an object of mockery.

Made a fool of by Hitler, baited by his backbenchers, goaded by Lord Halifax, facing a vote of no confidence, on March 31, 1939, Chamberlain made the greatest blunder in British diplomatic history. He handed an unsolicited war guarantee to the Polish colonels who had just bitten off a chunk of Czechoslovakia.

Lunacy, raged Lloyd George, who was echoed by British leaders and almost every historian since.

With the British Empire behind it, Warsaw now refused even to discuss a return of Danzig, the Baltic town, 95 percent German, which even Chamberlain thought should be returned.

Hitler did not want a war with Poland. Had he wanted war, he would have demanded the return of the entire Polish Corridor taken from Germany in 1919. He wanted Danzig back and Poland as an ally in his anti-Comintern Pact. Nor did he want war with a Britain he admired and always saw as a natural ally.

Nor did he want war with France, or he would have demanded the return of Alsace.

But Hitler was out on a limb with Danzig and could not crawl back.

Repeatedly, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. Repeatedly, the Poles rebuffed him. Seeing the Allies courting Josef Stalin, Hitler decided to cut his own deal with the detested Bolsheviks and settle the Polish issue by force.

Though Britain had no plans to aid Poland, no intention of aiding Poland and would do nothing to aid Poland — Churchill would cede half that nation to Stalin and the other half to Stalin’s stooges — Britain declared war for Poland.

The most awful war in all of history followed, which would bankrupt Britain, bring down her empire and bring Stalin’s Red Army into Prague, Berlin and Vienna. But Hitler was dead and Germany in ashes.

Cost: 50 million lives. “But ’twas a famous victory.”

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2009/04/patrick-j-buchanan/it-didnt-have-to-happen/

[Brian4Liberty]

They were just discussing this on CNN (Erin Burnett). She was asking the "expert" (Phil Mudd) why Islamic Facebook posts that seem threatening aren't all investigated (by the FBI and Facebook itself). He said the volume was too high, too many threats on the internet. And then he said something to the effect that "you never know when the light will come on and an Islamic radical will do violence. It's the same as the white supremacists, you never know when they might act." The "expert" must be connected to the SPLC, or at least he drank a whole lot of their kool-aid.