PDA

View Full Version : Oklahoma Affirms Gold and Silver as Legal Tender




acptulsa
09-24-2014, 01:56 AM
And hats off to Nathan Dahm, among others, for pulling it off! That makes us the fourth state to do this.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/markets/item/18426-oklahoma-affirms-gold-and-silver-as-legal-tender


Gold and silver coins issued by the United States government are legal tender in the State of Oklahoma.

No person may compel another person to tender or accept gold or silver coins that are issued by the United States government, except as agreed upon by contract.

For taxable years beginning on or after January 1, 2015, there shall be exempt from Oklahoma taxable income, or in the case of an individual, the Oklahoma adjusted gross income, any amount of net capital gains ... which result from the sale or exchange of gold or silver for another form of legal tender.

Zippyjuan
09-24-2014, 02:08 AM
Does "legal tender" mean accepted at face value of the coins?

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 02:20 AM
Does "legal tender" mean accepted at face value of the coins?

My, we're full of silly questions tonight.

Yes, you may accept a silver dollar as one silver U.S. dollar. You don't have to honor it at the valueless rate of one FRN the way you have to do silver certificates.


'Along with the solemn assurance of freedom and equality goes the guarantee of the right of the individual to possess, enjoy, and control the dollar which he earms, and the principle that it shall not be taken away without due process of law. This necessarily goes with any theory of independence or of liberty, which would be only a mockery unless it secured to the individual the rewards of his own effort and industry.'--Calvin Coolidge

Zippyjuan
09-24-2014, 03:08 AM
Why is it a silly question? The law in Oklahoma does not define "legal tender". A Federal Reserve $1 note is legal tender and worth its face value of one dollar. A quarter dollar coin is legal tender at 25 cents- not their paper or metal content value. Seems what the law really does is to remove the sales tax on gold and silver coins. http://kfor.com/2014/06/05/law-makes-gold-silver-coins-legal-tender-in-oklahoma-does-away-with-nonsensical-tax/

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/considered-legal-tender-us-61883.html


What Is Considered Legal Tender in the US?

“Legal tender” means that the financial instrument in question legally serves to pay any public or private debt. Federal law guarantees its printed value regardless of its intrinsic convertible value, which in the case of modern currency is essentially zero. Some people refer to this as “fiat money.” The practice of legal tender originally caused economic turmoil and was even briefly ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1869. This resulted in a financial crisis and the Court reversed itself within a month. Legal tender subsequently became more common, and today dominates the U.S. currency system.



(I notice the Oklahoma story was back in June)

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 03:21 AM
Why is it a silly question? The law in Oklahoma does not define "legal tender". A Federal Reserve $1 note is legal tender and worth its face value of one dollar. A quarter dollar coin is legal tender at 25 cents- not their paper or metal content value.

So? The Federal government does do that--not that under the Fed the word 'dollar' means anything; it means less every day under quantitative 'easing'. And so does the Japanese government, except it establishes the value of its national legal tender at a yen, of course. The European Union does, and Russia does, and lots and lots of places do.

If one government's actions had any effect on another's, then we'd have had to print trillion dollar notes when Zimbabwe did just to buy bread. So, what's your point?


Seems what the law really does is to remove the sales tax on gold and silver coins.

Has a little something to do with capital gains, too.

Zippyjuan
09-24-2014, 03:30 AM
Point is that if "legal tender" means accepted at face value the law really won't mean gold and silver will be legal tender and become widely used (or even used in limited cases)- people won't be willing to spend their metal coins at face value so that part of the law is meaningless. But if you are willing to buy say an apple from me priced at a dollar and pay me with a one ounce gold eagle, I would be happy to give you back $49 in change.

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 03:56 AM
Point is that if "legal tender" means accepted at face value the law really won't mean gold and silver will be legal tender and become widely used (or even used in limited cases)- people won't be willing to spend their metal coins at face value so that part of the law is meaningless. But if you are willing to buy say an apple from me priced at a dollar and pay me with a one ounce gold eagle, I would be happy to give you back $49 in change.

I don't see how that follows. A real dollar and an FRN are clearly two completely different animals. Humans aren't going to have a great deal of difficulty distinguishing them. One has held its value pretty well for two hundred thirty years, the other shrinks like wool in a hot dryer. That makes the difference pretty easy to spot.

oyarde
09-24-2014, 08:45 AM
I like the sales tax exemptionWhy would there be a tax on money ?.

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 10:52 AM
I like the sales tax exemptionWhy would there be a tax on money ?.

Yeah, that.

I've never heard of a sales tax being applied to a foreigner exchanging money to spend on his or her visit to the country. Haven't heard of sales tax on stocks or bonds, either.

Ronin Truth
09-24-2014, 11:03 AM
What about Canadian silver?

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 11:21 AM
What about Canadian silver?

The law specifies coinage minted in the U.S. It's useful for fans of junk silver; otherwise it's a bit problematic. But it's better than what 46 states have.

Ronin Truth
09-24-2014, 11:25 AM
The law specifies coinage minted in the U.S. It's useful for fans of junk silver; otherwise it's a bit problematic. But it's better than what 46 states have. Seems like an ounce of silver is an ounce of silver. I see absolutely no reason to be all nationalistic about it.

Zippyjuan
09-24-2014, 11:36 AM
I don't see how that follows. A real dollar and an FRN are clearly two completely different animals. Humans aren't going to have a great deal of difficulty distinguishing them. One has held its value pretty well for two hundred thirty years, the other shrinks like wool in a hot dryer. That makes the difference pretty easy to spot.

What is a "real dollar"?

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 11:37 AM
Seems like and ounce of silver is an ounce of silver. I see absolutely no reason to be all nationalistic about it.

LOL you don't have a bunch of Oklahomans for constituents, either.

Anything that makes it harder for the IRS and the Fed to vilify it, I say. At least for now. Later, after this much has been proven to have no direct effect on whether the sky falls or not...


What is a "real dollar"?

A former anachronism whose time has come again because the alternative we were sold just ain't working for us. A method of exchange that works, so we don't need an internet full of paid apologists trying and failing to sell us on the idea that letting the world's richest banks eat our life savings is a good thing. You know. Something of actual value.

Zippyjuan
09-24-2014, 11:52 AM
A former anachronism whose time has come again because the alternative we were sold just ain't working for us. A method of exchange that works, so we don't need an internet full of paid apologists trying and failing to sell us on the idea that letting the world's richest banks eat our life savings is a good thing. You know. Something of actual value.


A real dollar and an FRN are clearly two completely different animals. Humans aren't going to have a great deal of difficulty distinguishing them.

So what is a "real dollar"? Can you use them at the grocery store? Since "anybody can tell the difference" what does one look like? Where can you get one? Who accepts them?

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 11:57 AM
So what is a "real dollar"? Can you use them at the grocery store? Since "anybody can tell the difference" what does one look like? Where can you get one? Who accepts them?

What grocery store? What does a silver dollar look like? Who needs to get one--you mean you don't have one already? Who in their right mind wouldn't accept one?

Do you have a valid reason for asking a whole laundry list of questions you already know the answers to, or are you just paid by the word like Dickens?

Zippyjuan
09-24-2014, 12:00 PM
Any grocery store. Or other store. It was just an example. Do you need an address for a specific store? Do you use silver dollars for purchases since they are "real dollars" and you don't like FRNs?

Ronin Truth
09-24-2014, 12:03 PM
So what is a "real dollar"? Can you use them at the grocery store? Since "anybody can tell the difference" what does one look like? Where can you get one? Who accepts them? The old long time standard was 1/20th of an ounce of gold or 1 ounce of silver. We could just start there and then adjust accordingly up or down to the market.

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 12:04 PM
Do you use silver dollars for purchases since they are "real dollars"?Is this a childish attempt at entrapment? I suppose you want to know if I did that thing before June? You taking names to help the Feds bust people for obeying Oklahoma law? If barter is illegal, were we not all criminals from the first moment we traded baseball cards with our third grade classmates?

You ever hear of the Fifth Amendment? Well I have. Do you figure standing on it makes me a 'terrist'?

Zippyjuan
09-24-2014, 12:06 PM
So you use FRNs instead of silver dollars. Like everybody else. Just as the Oklahoma law won't change what people use for purchases.

Fifth amendment? How does that apply? What crime is even being discussed? Or are we in silly time now?

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 12:10 PM
So you use FRNs instead of silver dollars. Like everybody else. Just as the Oklahoma law won't change what people use for purchases.

So you lie in hopes I'll call you a liar and entrap myself. Nice try.


Fifth amendment? How does that apply?

Theoretically. As in, theoretically it's the law of the land.

So, if I did nothing illegal I don't need it, right? So if a ham sandwich has a lawyer who invokes the Fifth, your knee jerk reaction is to indict that ham sandwich, right?

Did I say 'nice try'? Well, it was a white lie. I was really trying to be nice about this ham-handed interrogation on behalf of the Bankster Police.

Zippyjuan
09-24-2014, 12:16 PM
Now you have done it. I am telling Mom on you. MOMMM!!!!!

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 12:19 PM
Now you have done it. I am telling Mom on you. MOMMM!!!!!

Give your mum my regards. Tell her it's all right; I'm sure her other children earn an honest living.

Lucille
09-24-2014, 12:24 PM
RPF deserves a better class of troll. It's the same convo with this one, over and over and over. Either he's being deliberately obtuse,or really is ineducable.


Now you have done it. I am telling Mom on you. MOMMM!!!!!

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh239/myhandsaremadeofspite/GIFs/14bt46w.gif

GunnyFreedom
09-24-2014, 12:35 PM
Huzzah!

As I posted to fedbook:

https://www.facebook.com/glenbradley/posts/10152792226863274

Oklahoma has now joined the ranks of States that have secured protection in the event of a serious US Dollar crisis. When will North Carolina allow our citizens to conduct business in bullion, without capital gains? After all, this is what the US Constitution requires.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/markets/item/18426-oklahoma-affirms-gold-and-silver-as-legal-tender

Simply authorizing the transaction of business using bullion as cash, works to protect the State against an economic collapse in the event of a Dollar crisis. Even if almost no business is conducted in bullion now, the mere creation of an infrastructure to deal with bullion will mitigate much of the effect of a Dollar collapse, because it will become easier for an economy to transition into a structure that already exists.

Ronin Truth
09-24-2014, 12:36 PM
Maybe the Freemasons could be persuaded to set up some money changers in the temple. :) Exchange some of my maple leafs for some Amerikan silver Eagles.

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 01:02 PM
RPF deserves a better class of troll. It's the same convo with this one, over and over and over. Either he's being deliberately obtuse,or really is ineducable.

'A lie told often enough becomes the truth.'--Vladimir Lenin

Well, you know what Will Rogers said...


"I guess there is no two races of people in worse repute with everybody than the international bankers and the folks that put all those pins in new shirts."--Will Rogers

Now that the lawyers have decided that 83 pins in one new shirt could be a liability issue, I guess the banksters and their paid lapdogs are in a class by themselves.

Of course, Z2.0 will now be tempted to pop up and deny being paid. But I'll never say that about him. I'm pretty sure that accusing someone of being stupid enough to be of service to the richest, most thievous villains on the face of the earth for hours on end, day after day, for nothing at all would be some kind of forum violation or another.

heavenlyboy34
09-24-2014, 01:19 PM
LOL you don't have a bunch of Oklahomans for constituents, either.

Anything that makes it harder for the IRS and the Fed to vilify it, I say. At least for now. Later, after this much has been proven to have no direct effect on whether the sky falls or not...



A former anachronism whose time has come again because the alternative we were sold just ain't working for us. A method of exchange that works, so we don't need an internet full of paid apologists trying and failing to sell us on the idea that letting the world's richest banks eat our life savings is a good thing. You know. Something of actual value.
You have a lot of good things going in this thread, but I want to nitpick this a little. It is an economic fact that value is subjective. Even if the FRN went to zero relative to the Euro, for example, there may be people who would still want some. (collectors, people who prefer dealing in paper for some personal reason, etc). As an Austrian, RP would back me up on this. ~hugs~

acptulsa
09-24-2014, 01:26 PM
You have a lot of good things going in this thread, but I want to nitpick this a little. It is an economic fact that value is subjective. Even if the FRN went to zero relative to the Euro, for example, there may be people who would still want some. (collectors, people who prefer dealing in paper for some personal reason, etc). As an Austrian, RP would back me up on this. ~hugs~

I thought I started this thread to celebrate a step toward competing currencies. Now, let's see, why did I start this thread really? To pwn Z2.0? Naw, that's too easy. It'd be like saying, I feel like a challenge today, I think I'll attempt to take the cap off the toothpaste...

Besides, I find value in the FRN myself. Indeed, I value it as much as the last several presidents value the Constitution.

Just don't use too much of it without flushing--it will clog your toilet.