1 in 4 Americans open to secession

[green73]

(Reuters) - The failed Scottish vote to pull out from the United Kingdom stirred secessionist hopes for some in the United States, where almost a quarter of people are open to their states leaving the union, a new Reuters/Ipsos poll found.

Some 23.9 percent of Americans polled from Aug. 23 through Sept. 16 said they strongly supported or tended to support the idea of their state breaking away, while 53.3 percent of the 8,952 respondents strongly opposed or tended to oppose the notion.

The urge to sever ties with Washington cuts across party lines and regions, though Republicans and residents of rural Western states are generally warmer to the idea than Democrats and Northeasterners, according to the poll.

cont.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/19/us-usa-secession-exclusive-idUSKBN0HE19U20140919

[presence]

I'm curious to see a state by state breakdown

[oyarde]

I would vote yes

[Madison320]

These are the "good" times. Wait until the dollar collapses and the federal government has to tighten the screws.

[Ronin Truth]

Wake me when it's 3 of 4.

[Root]

I'm in. Do we need to get a permit or something? </sarc>

[oyarde]

I'm in. Do we need to get a permit or something? </sarc>

During the Civil War ,one town and township in my State seceded , I do not think they ever lifted it.It is in a county Northeast of me by a county .

[tod evans]

I'm curious to see a state by state breakdown

I'd like to see the demographic of the states too...

What percentage of their populace sucks the tit has got to play a major factor...

[brushfire]

I would vote yes

When do we start, and where?

[AuH20]

That is a pretty scary statistic for the establishment. I expect it to hit a third in the next 5 years.

[Cutlerzzz]

That is a pretty scary statistic for the establishment. I expect it to hit a third in the next 5 years.

A quarter are undecided. That means it is already at a third: 26-52%. I imagine in some areas it could be more like 32-45%. Given another stock market crash and unpopular war and we probably see a majority supporting secession in some states.

[SovereignMN]

I'm curious to see a state by state breakdown
Here's a regional breakdown

http://blogs.reuters.com/jamesrgaines/2014/09/19/one-in-four-americans-want-their-state-to-secede-from-the-u-s-but-why/

[pessimist]

lol the neocons would just invade and drag them back.

[Suzanimal]

I'm in. Do we need to get a permit or something? </sarc>

:) Of course we need a permit silly.

"Sorry, guys, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit." -Tod

[Reece]

Wow, look at the age break down. Younger people seem significantly more likely to support secession than older people:

60+: 67.4 oppose, 15.3 support
40-59: 58.4 oppose, 23.5 support
18-39: 43.2 oppose, 32.2 support

http://polling.reuters.com/#!response/TM350Y14/type/day/dates/20140823-20140919

[69360]

My breakaway country would be VT NH ME along with NB and NS from Canada.

Pretty much nothing would ever happen there.

[Anti Federalist]

My breakaway country would be VT NH ME along with NB and NS from Canada.

Pretty much nothing would ever happen there.

I, literally, dream of the day.

VT - ME - NH allied with NB - NS - Newfoundland and Labrador, seperated by a Quebec barrier after they secede.

Oil, natural gas, stunning scenic beauty for tourism, fisheries, coal, ice free ports, timber, gold and granite, along with hi-tech industries.

All free from the tyrants in DC and Ottowa.

*sigh*

[Anti Federalist]

My breakaway country would be VT NH ME along with NB and NS from Canada.

Pretty much nothing would ever happen there.

I, literally, dream of the day.

VT - ME - NH allied with NB - NS - Newfoundland and Labrador, seperated by a Quebec barrier after they secede.

Oil, natural gas, stunning scenic beauty for tourism, fisheries, coal, ice free ports, timber, gold and granite, along with hi-tech industries.

All free from the tyrants in DC and Ottowa.

*sigh*

[Anti Federalist]

Independence from the British Empire is ridiculous...never happens. :rolleyes:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v0t5wKp80uA/VBmuXQaDEaI/AAAAAAAASLo/aWE1XHGIVq8/s1600/iL1YeMW9PON0.jpg

[69360]

Yet the UK STILL won't let Northern Ireland go.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[fisharmor]

23.9 percent of Americans just got their names on the no-fly list.

[cindy25]

Northern Ireland wouldn't vote for independence until the demographics shift

[Southron]

In general, it replaces a far-away tyrant with a tyrant in your own back yard.

In other words, it puts them in rifle range.

[ctiger2]

It is going to happen but not until 2032.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/09/11/will-the-usa-also-break-up-into-regions/


It appears that Hillary will be the Democratic candidate and that will merely solidify the Republic split. By 2032, the other side of this 51.6 year wave looks to be a starkly different world. The USA will split and China will become the Financial Capital of the World.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[56ktarget]

There is nothing less treasonous than wanting to split from America. Ironic, considering the daily attacks from Paulites about the "treasonous" obama.

[fisharmor]

There is nothing less treasonous than wanting to split from America. Ironic, considering the daily attacks from Paulites about the "treasonous" obama.
Then explain to us why there exists a formal, US federal government blessed process for renouncing US citizenship.

[osan]

I'd like to see the demographic of the states too...

What percentage of their populace sucks the tit has got to play a major factor...

I have the sneaking suspicion we already know the truth on that one.

[osan]

That is a pretty scary statistic for the establishment. I expect it to hit a third in the next 5 years.

At the rate things are proceeding, in 5 years the question may be moot.

[osan]

Secession is likely to have little to no meaning. Imagine, for example, that there were only three states. The "union" runs up a huge debt and then one of the states secedes. Since it is the United States that ran up the debt, the two states in the union would be left holding the bag for the extra 1/3 of the debt from which the third state stepped away upon seceding. I doubt the people of the remaining union would be terribly thrilled. Therefore, their better interested would likely drive them to place all manner of conditions upon the act of secession, one those being that the people of the seceded state would have to honor the debt, which itself raises some interesting issues.

I cannot imagine the feds allowing any state to secede without attaching to the act the yearly or even quarterly reiteration of their duty to honor the proportion of the outstanding debt to which they were obliged as a state. Given that, in certain terms the seceded state will suffer all the losses without enjoying any of the benefits. Unless the break leaves one free and clear, the value of secession remains questionable. Regardless, for me one of the central elements that would have to be present would be the dislocation of all debt obligations for the people of the exiting state. The feds would NEVER allow this. I do firmly believe the only way this would happen would be in the aftermath of a shooting war. Such a precedent would be disastrous for Themme. It would also be catastrophic for those states remaining in the union, becoming ever more so as the rats begin jumping ship. Just imagine if the only states remaining were NY, NJ, CT, RI, MA, DE, MD, and Ill-Annoy and they were left holding the bag for, say, $20 trillion. Do you see why bullets would likely be the only way this could ever be pulled off?

[oyarde]

There is nothing less treasonous than wanting to split from America. Ironic, considering the daily attacks from Paulites about the "treasonous" obama.

I just do not want to pay for the bloated , treasonous fed govt. I like my state about as well as I would any other place .

[56ktarget]

Then explain to us why there exists a formal, US federal government blessed process for renouncing US citizenship.
We are talking about secession. Not the renunciation of one's citizenship. Read the OP lol

[Ronin Truth]

We are talking about secession. Not the renunciation of one's citizenship. Read the OP lol

How would an individual secede? (Rhetorical question.)

[tod evans]

How would an individual secede?

With extreme prejudice, the exact same way government intends to keep one from seceding...

[Ronin Truth]

With extreme prejudice, the exact same way government intends to keep one from seceding...


How'd that all work out for the USSR and the Warsaw Pact? I seem to recall it as somehow being an idea whose time became. Vote with your feet. It's really hard to beat achieving critical mass. ;)

[LibForestPaul]

Interesting how the abandoned southwestern states seems to be the highest.

[Ronin Truth]

Interesting how the abandoned southwestern states seems to be the highest.
Maybe Mexico is starting to look better to them now. If they can just wait a bit, the happy, happy NAU will straighten it all out.

[FloralScent]

lol the neocons would just invade and drag them back.

With who's army?

[FloralScent]

There is nothing less treasonous than wanting to split from America. Ironic, considering the daily attacks from Paulites about the "treasonous" obama.

It's only 'tresonous' if those making the accusation can do anything about it. The United States hasn't the stomach for a real war, much less against any southern state where they currently get most of their combat troops. Who would bring them back into the fold to face such charges? Guy's like you? Guy's like you are pussies.

[Acala]

There is nothing less treasonous than wanting to split from America. Ironic, considering the daily attacks from Paulites about the "treasonous" obama.
What I find ironic is how talk about secession exposes the involuntary servitude that underlies the progressive agenda. As soon as the modern slaves can walk away from the plantation, the scheme falls apart. Secession is nothing more than the logical conclusion of government by the consent of the governed, but it exposes the immoral basis of socialism, hence secessionists must be vilified in the strongest possible terms.

[Christian Liberty]

Any state that secedes should just default on its debt and stop using FRNs....

[Anti Federalist]

There is nothing less treasonous than wanting to split from America. Ironic, considering the daily attacks from Paulites about the "treasonous" obama.

And that is, quite literally, one of the most laughable and idiotic statements I have ever seen here.

The primary founding document of this nation makes it very clear that rebellion, revolution and separation from tyrannical regimes are fundamental human rights.

[Christian Liberty]

And that is, quite literally, one of the most laughable and idiotic statements I have ever seen here.

The primary founding document of this nation makes it very clear that rebellion, revolution and separation from tyrannical regimes are fundamental human rights.

To my understanding the DoI has no actual legal standing (you could argue that this is morally and ethically irrelevant, but it is worth pointing out at least.) The Constitution, on the other hand, actually does allow secession via silence via 10th amendment. Also: the constitution specifically defines treason, and supporting secession or engaging in secession does not qualify. In fact, per the constitutional definition of treason, if you accept Lincoln's argument that the southern states never left the Union, that would mean that Abraham Lincoln was a traitor because he made war against (some of) the United States.

I guess John Wilkes Booth was just a vigilante then, rather than a murderer....

[Anti Federalist]

To my understanding the DoI has no actual legal standing (you could argue that this is morally and ethically irrelevant, but it is worth pointing out at least.) The Constitution, on the other hand, actually does allow secession via silence via 10th amendment. Also: the constitution specifically defines treason, and supporting secession or engaging in secession does not qualify. In fact, per the constitutional definition of treason, if you accept Lincoln's argument that the southern states never left the Union, that would mean that Abraham Lincoln was a traitor because he made war against (some of) the United States.

I guess John Wilkes Booth was just a vigilante then, rather than a murderer....

Never said it was "legal".

It is a powerful manifesto, is what it is.

[Christian Liberty]

Never said it was "legal".

It is a powerful manifesto, is what it is.

OK, fair enough. I agree. But I do find it funny that even the law (that is, the plain text of the US constitution) agrees with me here, and not with 56Ktarget's ridiculous assertions. Constitutionally the southern states were never traitors. Constitutionally, Saint Abraham (Abe Lincoln) was guilty of treason.

[Ronin Truth]

To my understanding the DoI has no actual legal standing (you could argue that this is morally and ethically irrelevant, but it is worth pointing out at least.) The Constitution, on the other hand, actually does allow secession via silence via 10th amendment. Also: the constitution specifically defines treason, and supporting secession or engaging in secession does not qualify. In fact, per the constitutional definition of treason, if you accept Lincoln's argument that the southern states never left the Union, that would mean that Abraham Lincoln was a traitor because he made war against (some of) the United States.

I guess John Wilkes Booth was just a vigilante then, rather than a murderer.... I believe that the Supreme Court has ruled otherwise on the D of I. I'll check.

UPDATE: Looks like a mixed hodge podge of opinions in the Google link bomb. https://www.google.com/search?q=declaration+of+independence+supreme+court +legal+standing&hl=en&gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=

[Anti Federalist]

OK, fair enough. I agree. But I do find it funny that even the law (that is, the plain text of the US constitution) agrees with me here, and not with 56Ktarget's ridiculous assertions. Constitutionally the southern states were never traitors. Constitutionally, Saint Abraham (Abe Lincoln) was guilty of treason.

Quite right.

[Christian Liberty]

I believe that the Supreme Court has ruled otherwise on the D of I. I'll check.

UPDATE: Looks like a mixed hodge podge of opinions in the Google link bomb. https://www.google.com/search?q=declaration+of+independence+supreme+court +legal+standing&hl=en&gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=

Fair enough. The DoI certainly makes the case for secession even stronger. I just thought it was interesting, and worth noting, that even if we're only allowed to use the US Constitution, we still win.

[56ktarget]

And that is, quite literally, one of the most laughable and idiotic statements I have ever seen here.

The primary founding document of this nation makes it very clear that rebellion, revolution and separation from tyrannical regimes are fundamental human rights.
Lol, I guess Lincoln and Washington and other founding fathers are just cranks then right? lol. The courts have consistently interpreted secession to be illegal and unconstitutional. I'm sure you know a lot more of the law than the combined weight of our judicial system of the past ~150 years.

[William Tell]

Lol, I guess Lincoln and Washington and other founding fathers are just cranks then right? lol. The courts have consistently interpreted secession to be illegal and unconstitutional. I'm sure you know a lot more of the law than the combined weight of our judicial system of the past ~150 years.

The Courts suck, Declaration of Independence trumps silly lawyers. The Constitution was supposed to uphold the ideals of the DOI.

[oyarde]

Any state that secedes should just default on its debt and stop using FRNs....

And institute a real money .

[oyarde]

If it was on a ballot , I would vote yes .

[56ktarget]

The Courts suck, Declaration of Independence trumps silly lawyers. The Constitution was supposed to uphold the ideals of the DOI.

Umm no the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Funny how paulites espouse the constitution until it conflicts with their ideology.

[TheTexan]

There is nothing less treasonous than wanting to split from America. Ironic, considering the daily attacks from Paulites about the "treasonous" obama.

Indeed. The Great Lincoln, Freer of Slaves, and Unifier of States, settled this dispute a long time ago.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/assets_c/2011/03/Abraham%20Lincoln%20riding%20a%20grizzly%20bear-thumb-600x337-45749.jpg

[William Tell]

Umm no the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Funny how paulites espouse the constitution until it conflicts with their ideology.
You are confusing the Courts with the Constitution. The Courts no longer uphold the Constitution.

[Christian Liberty]

Lol, I guess Lincoln and Washington and other founding fathers are just cranks then right? lol. The courts have consistently interpreted secession to be illegal and unconstitutional. I'm sure you know a lot more of the law than the combined weight of our judicial system of the past ~150 years.

Lincoln was far worse than a "crank".


And institute a real money .

Yes.


The Courts suck, Declaration of Independence trumps silly lawyers. The Constitution was supposed to uphold the ideals of the DOI.


Umm no the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Funny how paulites espouse the constitution until it conflicts with their ideology.

I'm not a constitutionalist. But, if the elected leaders can't even stand by the document they agreed to stand by, that's a problem.

[Acala]

Umm no the constitution is the supreme law of the land. Funny how paulites espouse the constitution until it conflicts with their ideology.

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. But nowhere in the Constitution does it say that the SCOTUS has the last word on what the Constitution says. Indeed, for the Framers, who were VERY worried about creating an unrestrained political power, to have arranged to have the new government have the last word on the limits of its own power would have been adsurd. Both Jefferson and Madison, writing separately in the Virgina and Kentucky resolutions, agreed that the STATES have the last word on what the Constitution says and have the duty to interpose and nullify Federal law that exceeds Constitutional authority.

Furthermore, the Supremacy Clause only applies to laws passed within the strict limits of the enumerated powers. All other laws are void at birth and need not be followed.

And, as noted by a previous poster, there is nothing in the Constitution granting the Federal government the power to hold states in the union by force. Powers not enumerated do not exist. Any attempt to stop secession by force is unconstitutional.

The Constitution, like all other statutes, is interpreted in light of the intent of the legislature at the time of enactment. Surely you don't think that the States agreed to a Constitution that authorized the Federal government to conscript an army and use it to invade and crush any state that wanted to leave the union? The USA is a republic, not the mafia. If the States didn't intend that power, then the constitution doesn't grant that power.

Finally, the principle that formed the foundation of the Revolution of 1776 was that the only legitimate government is by consent of the governed. As soon as the people withdraw that consent any further attempt to govern is without authority. We have had an outlaw government since at least the time of the Civil War.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Demigod]

With who's army?

-What is left of the standing army and police
-Oligarch private armies
-Criminals who are offered to pillage what they take
-Political and religious extremists

There are always more than enough people willing to fight.


Lol, I guess Lincoln and Washington and other founding fathers are just cranks then right? lol. The courts have consistently interpreted secession to be illegal and unconstitutional. I'm sure you know a lot more of the law than the combined weight of our judicial system of the past ~150 years.

Anyone who thinks that a government will declare that secession from it is legal is a crank.There is no chance that a government would allow a court to rule that secession is legal.Every second day someone would be voting to secede and there would be no way for the state to function properly.

[Acala]

-Anyone who thinks that a government will declare that secession from it is legal is a crank.There is no chance that a government would allow a court to rule that secession is legal.Every second day someone would be voting to secede and there would be no way for the state to function properly.

Actually I think it is pretty likely that the UK will allow Scotland to secede peacefully. And I think that it is likely that Canada will allow Quebec to secede peacefully. And after a point, even the USSR allowed its dominions to secede peacefully. So, really, the bloodythirsty crony-capitalist Father Abraham was unusual in his use of extreme violence to prevent secession.

[Demigod]

Actually I think it is pretty likely that the UK will allow Scotland to secede peacefully. And I think that it is likely that Canada will allow Quebec to secede peacefully. And after a point, even the USSR allowed its dominions to secede peacefully. So, really, the bloodythirsty crony-capitalist Father Abraham was unusual in his use of extreme violence to prevent secession.

There is a difference between the government allowing regions to vote on secession and having the courts rule that secession is legal ,which is what I was replaying to.If a court rules that secession is legal than everyone will start having referendums all the time.It will be impossible to have an organized country.

[Acala]

There is a difference between the government allowing regions to vote on secession and having the courts rule that secession is legal ,which is what I was replaying to.If a court rules that secession is legal than everyone will start having referendums all the time.It will be impossible to have an organized country.

The only reason a Scottish or Quebec secession would not go to court is because the governments will not oppose them. An Arizona secession also would not go to court if the US government did not oppose it.

And not only could you have an organized country with peaceful secession allowed, you would have a much BETTER country because the government would have to treat people fairly or lose them.