Commiefornia and 2X4's

[tod evans]

Marin judge orders Lowe's Home Centers to pay $1.6 million settlement

http://www.marinij.com/marinnews/ci_26419809/marin-judge-orders-lowes-home-centers-pay-1

North Carolina-based Lowe's Home Centers has been ordered to pay $1.6 million to settle a lawsuit by prosecutors from Marin and four other counties alleging inaccurate and misleading advertising, the district attorney's office announced Wednesday.

The settlement, ordered by Marin Superior Court Judge Paul M. Haakenson, is the culmination of a civil enforcement action filed in Marin Superior Court and led by the district attorneys of Marin, Los Angeles, Monterey, San Joaquin and Stanislaus counties. It was alleged Lowe's stores throughout the state unlawfully advertised structural dimensional building products for sale, such as lumber, using incorrect product dimensions. In some instances, Lowe's advertisements restated misleading or inaccurate product dimensions provided by the manufacturers or suppliers.

"Consumers should expect when making product purchases that retailers are providing accurate information especially when misinformation could adversely affect building projects that more often than not rely on precise measurements," said District Attorney Ed Berberian.

Karen Cobb, spokesperson for Lowe's, said in a statement: "Periodically, representatives of local Weights and Measures departments visit retailers and they expressed concerns about common product measurements, such as a 2x4 piece of lumber. These visits were initiated as a result of standards set by California's Division of Measurement Standards, which relies upon guidance from the National Institute of Standards and Technology concerning the sale of certain commodity products.

"Historically, Lowe's provided information about product dimensions received from vendors. Moving forward, customers will now be able to locate product by actual and common dimensions as provided by vendors for certain building products. For example, for a piece of lumber commonly known as a 2X4, customers will see both the common name (2x4) and the actual product dimensions (1.5 x 3.5 inches).

"Both Lowe's and the California DAs agreed that a settlement is in the best interest of all parties. It allows us to continue moving forward with our program to provide both actual and common product dimensions and meet our shared goals."

Under the settlement, Lowe's is required to immediately remove products from sale or correct false, misleading, deceptive or inaccurate product descriptions. Lowe's must pay $1.47 million in civil penalties and costs of the investigation. An additional $150,000 will be paid to fund further consumer protection-related activities including quality control and price verification programs conducted by the California Department of Food and Agriculture. The store will be bound under the terms of a permanent injunction prohibiting similar future violations of law.

According to the district attorney's office, Lowe's was cooperative throughout the investigation and has implemented enhanced policies and procedures designed to eliminate the use of misleading or inaccurate product dimensions in their advertisements.

[AuH20]

http://www.velvetgeek.com/wp-content/themes/gallerific/image.php?width=570&image=http://www.velvetgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Hacksaw.jpg

[dannno]

Obviously none of these people took woodshop in school....or know anything about construction...

Way to make building materials more expensive...

[Acala]

Incredible. The stupidity of this has overwhelmed me. For those who don't deal in such things, standard construction lumber is NEVER the actual dimensions used to designate it. It never has been in my lifetime. Not anywhere.

[kcchiefs6465]

"Both Lowe's and the California DAs agreed that a settlement is in the best interest of all parties. It allows us to continue moving forward with our program to provide both actual and common product dimensions and meet our shared goals."
Lol.

[The Free Hornet]

What I've read is that lumbar starts at 2"x4" (green) and is then kiln dried and planed to a uniform dimension. Many people report that, decades ago, this proces resulted in a 1-3/4" x 3-3/4" but accounting/engineering has reduced this to 1.5"x3.5". The article didn't show the advertising in question but I would hope this is remedied by simply listing 2x4 and not 2"x4" (which is awkward and inaccurate).

[brushfire]

Who knew..? 5th generation inbreds build houses? Well done CA, you're always finding new lows at lowes.

Morons...

[Danke]

I hope they don't come after me because of my nickname.

[brushfire]

I hope they don't come after me because of my nickname.

2 inch by 4 inch. Sir-girthstump - aka A1C Danke.

[Dr.3D]

What I've read is that lumbar starts at 2"x4" (green) and is then kiln dried and planed to a uniform dimension. Many people report that, decades ago, this proces resulted in a 1-3/4" x 3-3/4" but accounting/engineering has reduced this to 1.5"x3.5". The article didn't show the advertising in question but I would hope this is remedied by simply listing 2x4 and not 2"x4" (which is awkward and inaccurate).
I think it's interesting, the house I live in was build in 1880 and all of the 2x4s measure 2" x 4". They are rough but that doesn't matter, they are there to hold up the lath the plaster is stuck to. Some how, I bet they decided they could make 2x4s smaller and thus get more of them per log. I'll bet now days, they never measured a true 2" by 4", even when green.

[axiomata]

Is it wrong that this makes me just as mad as if some government agent smacked an innocent lady over the head with a 2x4 for no reason?

It may be the structural engineer in me.

I'm guessing they now have to call what was known as 3 inch pipe 3.5" pipe and what was 3-1/2 inch pipe 4" pipe. I see no unintended consequences there.

[Dr.3D]

Is it wrong that this makes me just as mad as if some government agent smacked an innocent lady over the head with a 2x4 for no reason?

It may be the structural engineer in me.

I'm guessing they now have to call what was known as 3 inch pipe 3.5" pipe and what was 3-1/2 inch pipe 4" pipe. I see no unintended consequences there.

It would just make it harder for the plumbers and pipefitters to thread them with their 3" and 4" dies. Of course, most of that is grooved now anyway.

[AuH20]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb5c0tVTfR1qdkrl2o1_400.jpg

[brushfire]

I think it's interesting, the house I live in was build in 1880 and all of the 2x4s measure 2" x 4". They are rough but that doesn't matter, they are there to hold up the lath the plaster is stuck to. Some how, I bet they decided they could make 2x4s smaller and thus get more of them per log. I'll bet now days, they never measured a true 2" by 4", even when green.

Nominal lumber dimensions have been used for my entire life. Once the old growth forests disappeared, lumber become more expensive. It was all about cost savings while maintaining traditional terms.

What's really funny is how bad the lumber is at almost every big-box store. Most lumber is not even the actual dimension, or as you point out, is so wet, checked or warped, that its worthless. On my old phone, I used to keep pictures of the so called lumber - piles of twisted, knotty, wayned, and checked crap. With maybe a few nice boards at the very bottom.

I just spend extra and go to a real lumber yard. Who has time to move piles of wood back and forth, while sorting though lowes/hoe depot's sh!t stock? What's really sad is that just like what the super market did to the butcher, most of these big box stores have all but shut out every lumber yard out there. I have to travel quite a ways (40 minutes) to get to a real lumber yard.

[Dr.3D]

Nominal lumber dimensions have been used for my entire life. Once the old growth forests disappeared, lumber become more expensive. It was all about cost savings while maintaining traditional terms.

What's really funny is how bad the lumber is at almost every big-box store. Most lumber is not even the actual dimension, or as you point out, is so wet, checked or warped, that its worthless. On my old phone, I used to keep pictures of the so called lumber - piles of twisted, knotty, wayned, and checked crap. With maybe a few nice boards at the very bottom.

I just spend extra and go to a real lumber yard. Who has time to move piles of wood back and forth, while sorting though lowes/hoe depot's sh!t stock? What's really sad is that just like what the super market did to the butcher, most of these big box stores have all but shut out every lumber yard out there. I have to travel quite a ways (40 minutes) to get to a real lumber yard.
Yeah, when I was a kid, I used to camp out behind the lumber mill. I noticed they had all of the rough lumber in stacks out there. I always thought it was so the lumber would dry and still stay straight in the stacks so when they finally cut it for finishing, it wouldn't shrink or warp. I suppose they don't do that so much anymore.

[idiom]

Maybe it is actually just more of the SKIM in the US.

Here all products match their dimensions. A 4x2 is 100mm by 50mm.

Probably California is correct and what you are seeing is just graft as suppliers see what they can get away with.

[specsaregood]

Obviously none of these people took woodshop in school....or know anything about construction...


I'm wondering some lawyer do it yourselfer with no experience bought a bunch of lumber and got mad when he started building something and found how his plans wouldn't work any longer using the actual dimensions.

Maybe next time he'll make like me and bring his measuring tape to the store whenever buying building materials.

[dannno]

Maybe it is actually just more of the SKIM in the US.

Here all products match their dimensions. A 4x2 is 100mm by 50mm.

Probably California is correct and what you are seeing is just graft as suppliers see what they can get away with.

It has been this way for at least many many decades, everywhere in the US. The main reason the dimensions are off is because the wood is rough cut 2"x4", then planed and cured and ends up 1.5" x 3.5". I can't tell you how many times I've been told this by everyone from woodshop instructors, boyscout leaders and construction people. It's just common knowledge in the industry.

[luctor-et-emergo]

Bureaucrats shouldn't be involved with construction. Period.
All they can do is make it harder for the people doing the actual work while reducing the quality or design.

Professionally the same system is used here. DIY stores sell wood with their 'actual' dimensions but this is even more frustrating since it's usually smaller then (they are cheap). For instance 18x50mm is more like 17x48mm and it's usually 5-10mm shorter than what they say.

[FindLiberty]

What, now* they only measure 1-3/4" x 3-3/4"?

You know, I've handled a whole lot of modern, rounded edge 2x4s and always though my hands were just getting bigger...

[stops typing, tilts head and stares into his hairy palms]

Oh noes, I guess this means my short arm must actually be getting smaller too!

+++

[*100 year old rough cut, square edged construction "lumber" really did/does measure 2x4, 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 etc...]

[Suzanimal]

It has been this way for at least many many decades, everywhere in the US. The main reason the dimensions are off is because the wood is rough cut 2"x4", then planed and cured and ends up 1.5" x 3.5". I can't tell you how many times I've been told this by everyone from woodshop instructors, boyscout leaders and construction people. It's just common knowledge in the industry.

Yep, I even knew that and my woodworking skills are "sketchy" on a good day.

[mad cow]

Lowe's should take the initiative and also list the dimensions in metric before some illegal alien sues them.

[Acala]

I am sure there is at least 1/16th of an inch variation, if not more, from one board to the next. Each board needs to be measured exactly and marked at the point of sale.

[phill4paul]

Nominal lumber dimensions have been used for my entire life. Once the old growth forests disappeared, lumber become more expensive. It was all about cost savings while maintaining traditional terms.

What's really funny is how bad the lumber is at almost every big-box store. Most lumber is not even the actual dimension, or as you point out, is so wet, checked or warped, that its worthless. On my old phone, I used to keep pictures of the so called lumber - piles of twisted, knotty, wayned, and checked crap. With maybe a few nice boards at the very bottom.

I just spend extra and go to a real lumber yard. Who has time to move piles of wood back and forth, while sorting though lowes/hoe depot's sh!t stock? What's really sad is that just like what the super market did to the butcher, most of these big box stores have all but shut out every lumber yard out there. I have to travel quite a ways (40 minutes) to get to a real lumber yard.

Don't even get me started! Everything you have just posted is my biggest gripe doing handyman work these days. And I am like you and will travel to an actual yard. Damned spending an hour in a big box picking through lumber. When I absolutely HAVE to go I just pile the crap pieces on the floor. I'm not gonna spend mine and a customers time restocking it.

[tod evans]

Even the hardwood lumber industry is trying to chisel the small shop and end consumer..

Just a decade ago I would order 4/4 rough lumber and if I was careful could surface it to a true 4/4...

With some species and some mill/kiln operators it's still that way but many are trying to squeeze the extra footage with bandmills and tight tolerances...

[Barrex]

I see both sides of argument here.

More clear cut case is:

1 Gb=1024 MB

But Hard drive manufacturers count 1000 MB as 1 GB!!! When you buy 1Tb HDD you lose 24GB of space that way. In this instance i say sue the living shit out of them.

[Carson]

Maybe it is actually just more of the SKIM in the US.

Here all products match their dimensions. A 4x2 is 100mm by 50mm.

Probably California is correct and what you are seeing is just graft as suppliers see what they can get away with.


A new push to see what they could get away with was what I was wondering about this story.

Everyone seems to have grown accustomed to the green size and the shrinkage size. I did a Google search and see that even that has been manipulated with over my life time.


Lumber's nominal dimensions are larger than the actual standard dimensions of finished lumber. Historically, the nominal dimensions were the size of the green (not dried), rough (unfinished) boards that eventually became smaller finished lumber through drying and planing (to smooth the wood). Today, the standards specify the final finished dimensions and the mill cuts the logs to whatever size it needs to achieve those final dimensions. Typically, that rough cut is smaller than the nominal dimensions because modern technology makes it possible and it uses the logs more efficiently. For example, a "2x4" board historically started out as a green, rough board actually 2 inches by 4 inches. After drying and planing, it would be smaller, by a nonstandard amount. Today, a "2x4" board starts out as something smaller than 2 inches by 4 inches and not specified by standards, and after drying and planing is reliably 1 1⁄2 inches x 3 1⁄2 inches.

Early standards called for green rough lumber to be of full nominal dimension when dry. However, the dimensions have diminished over time. In 1910, a typical finished 1-inch- (25 mm) board was 13⁄16 in (21 mm). In 1928, that was reduced by 4%, and yet again by 4% in 1956. In 1961, at a meeting in Scottsdale, Arizona, the Committee on Grade Simplification and Standardization agreed to what is now the current U.S. standard: in part, the dressed size of a 1 inch (nominal) board was fixed at 3⁄4 inch; while the dressed size of 2 inch (nominal) lumber was reduced from 1 5⁄8 inch to the current 1 1⁄2 inch.[8]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumber


I'm sort of wondering if they tried cutting the dimensions some more one their own and had people having to buy the next size larger and having it milled to get repairs made on old construction.


P.S. I just read someones post that he "had an order come in 1 3/8 x 3 1/2". (https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060730224833AAFTsjE)


P.S.P.S. I think we've crossed the line from being able to say the reason lumber is smaller is because of kiln drying or milling. We are firmly into the territory that it is caused by chumps and thieving weasels.

[axiomata]

P.S.P.S. I think we've crossed the line from being able to say the reason lumber is smaller is because of kiln drying or milling. We are firmly into the territory that it is caused by chumps and thieving weasels.

The nominal 2x4 was standardized as 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" in the dried dressed condition back in the early 1960's. Why is it a bad thing that mills no longer need a full 2"x4" rough green lumber in order to meet that final standard? Sure, the mills who were at the forefront of improving their processes and reducing waste earned a profit for their innovation but is that a bad thing? And now that all mills are competing against each other pretty much only on price it is the consumer who is benefiting.

It is true that rough 2x4's were larger before standardization but is that a good thing? 1) It is more efficient to dress rough 2x4's at the central mill than down the distribution chain 2) It is more cost effective to transport lighter lumber 3) It is a better use of natural resources to use lighter members and dress the members in a central place where the sawdust can be collected and repurposed 4) structurally, a dry dressed 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" is about the same product as a rough green 2"x4" since it will shrink over time as it dries and an engineer must assume worst case section properties

The only chumps are those that criticize businesses for improving customer's value.

[axiomata]

The County of Marin, by Ordinance No. 3549http://www.marincounty.org/images/www_icon.png (http://marin.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=36&clip_id=4547&meta_id=484564) has adopted the following codes:
2010 California Building Code incorporating the 2009 International Building Code

By reference, the 2009 International Building code adopts:


NDS-05
National Design Specification (NDS) for Wood Construction with 2005 Supplement




NDS-05 gives allowable stress values based on nominal size classification such as:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/537/wMbVlr.png (http://imageshack.com/f/exwMbVlrp)

As an engineer, can I sue Marin county for $1.6 million for having their building code utilize the industry standard nominal sizing in some places?

[oyarde]

So how much can I get for a real oak 2x 4 ?

[axiomata]

So how much can I get for a real oak 2x 4 ?

Whatever the market will bear of course.

It's not illegal (yet) to sell a "Real 2x4" (TM)

[tod evans]

So how much can I get for a real oak 2x 4 ?

8/4 red oak in the rough is $2.45, white oak $3.10 bf

S4S is extra

[acptulsa]

Well, now, if California keeps this up, people will be getting arrested for saying they have a one liter bike because all motorcycle manufacturers who make one make it about 995 ccs to avoid running afoul of weird European tax laws. And people will get arrested for saying they bought a fifth when they bought 750 ml. And they'll have inspectors with micrometers measuring any cigarettes that make that '100' claim; people might be required to specify they want '103's. And the next thing you know, those people will be speaking a completely different language from the rest of us. Which might just convince us it's time to give it back to Mexico.

Totally tubular, man.


As an engineer, can I sue Marin county for $1.6 million for having their building code utilize the industry standard nominal sizing in some places?

Worth a try.

Think you can look all butthurt about it?

[oyarde]

8/4 red oak in the rough is $2.45, white oak $3.10 bf

S4S is extra
$3.10 , I had no idea, Good retirement info , I may have to put the Mrs to work :) She will be delighted to learn of my plans .

[axiomata]

I need a pint. And it better be an English imperial pint and not a weak US pint . And make sure it is exactly 38 degrees Fahrenheit and at atmospheric pressure .

[idiom]

Its not just lumber. Its pervasive in American society these days.

Do yourself a favour everybody, go read this. Its short enough:

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229385

[tangent4ronpaul]

Yeah, it's called Planned obsolescence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

Has anyone noted grocery stores in recent years. Seems that started about when the subsidy on ethanol went away, packages were the same size but the contents got less while the price stayed the same. Then the container AND the contents got smaller while the price stayed the same. Then the price went up...

Same with food delivery, only a lot faster. We used to order out a fair amount and for a while there the prices went up every time we ordered. Like weekly. We always put the latest menu on the message board. Over time the prices on everything more than doubled and we cut down on ordering out.

Then there is milk and gas... for milk it was about $1.50 a gallon a few years ago. Last year it was $3.50, last month it was $4.00 this week it's $5.00 a gallon...

It seems like we are in free fall economic collapse.

oh, and did you know ink jet ink is more expensive than french perfume?

-t

[tod evans]

oyarde asked about the cost of oak 2X4's and the pricing I gave earlier was for 8/4 lumber in the rough, price per board foot...

In order to translate that to 2X4 pricing the board foot cost will need to be multiplied by 5.333 for an 8 footer, if the consumer wants planed, radiused edge lumber the cost goes up quickly.

[libertyjam]

The nominal 2x4 was standardized as 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" in the dried dressed condition back in the early 1960's. Why is it a bad thing that mills no longer need a full 2"x4" rough green lumber in order to meet that final standard? Sure, the mills who were at the forefront of improving their processes and reducing waste earned a profit for their innovation but is that a bad thing? And now that all mills are competing against each other pretty much only on price it is the consumer who is benefiting.

It is true that rough 2x4's were larger before standardization but is that a good thing? 1) It is more efficient to dress rough 2x4's at the central mill than down the distribution chain 2) It is more cost effective to transport lighter lumber 3) It is a better use of natural resources to use lighter members and dress the members in a central place where the sawdust can be collected and repurposed 4) structurally, a dry dressed 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" is about the same product as a rough green 2"x4" since it will shrink over time as it dries and an engineer must assume worst case section properties

The only chumps are those that criticize businesses for improving customer's value.

I want to know if that is the case then why was I able to get grade 1 2x4's up into the '80's that were 1 7/8s x 3 3/4s ?

A full 1/2 inch below nominal was nothing but a shaving for profit at the expense of the consumer and nothing will ever convince otherwise.