Fight For 15: Fast-food workers to launch intensified protests across U.S

[aGameOfThrones]

Fast-food workers to launch intensified protests across U.S.


Credit: Reuters/Jim Young
Demonstrators chant in the driveway during a protest at the McDonald's headquarters in Oak Brook, Illinois, May 21, 2014.

Credit: Reuters/Jim Young
(Reuters) - McDonald's line cooks, Burger King cashiers and other fast-food restaurant workers across the U.S. plan to walk off the job on Thursday in an ongoing battle with their employers to gain a $15 hourly wage, organizers said on Monday.

The protests, announced on Twitter by organizer Fight For 15, come as cities across the nation propose minimum wage increases while Democrats seek to raise the federal minimum wage ahead of this year's mid-term congressional elections.

Fast food workers have launched a series of protests over the last nearly two years to bring awareness to their demands, which include the right to unionize without retaliation.

In one of the last major actions, restaurant workers launched rallies in 150 cities, including Boston, Chicago, New York and Miami in May.

This time, organizers are staging walkouts in more than 100 cities and plan to use nonviolent civil disobedience tactics such as sit-ins, The New York Times reported.

Unlike the protest in May, thousands of home care workers are expected to join in solidarity, the Times reported.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/02/us-usa-restaurants-strike-idUSKBN0GX07320140902



Fast-food workers plan nationwide protest Thursday


Nancy Salgado, a cashier at a Chicago McDonald's, plans to strike this Thursday. Union organizers say workers are prepared to be arrested if need be.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney)



Union organizers say workers will walk off their jobs Thursday in 150 cities nationwide. Restaurants that they say will be affected include McDonald's (MCD), Burger King (BKW) , Wendy's and KFC, which is owned by Yum Brands (YUM).

The action would be the latest in a two-year effort to get employers to pay them a minimum wage of $15 an hour and allow them to form unions without retaliation.

Nancy Salgado, a 27 year old single mother of a 3 year old boy and an 8 year old girl, plans to strike.

Salgado works at a McDonald's in the Logan Square area of Chicago earning $8.25 an hour, or about $600 a month take home pay.

After splitting rent and utilities with 3 roommates, and paying for child care, she's left with a little over $100 a month for food and everything else.

"If I have a dollar at the end of the month it's a miracle," Salgado said.

Union organizers say the movement has elevated the debate about inequality in the U.S. and helped raise the minimum wage in some states, including Connecticut and New Jersey.

Public policy group Demos says CEO compensation in the industry since 2000 quadrupled to $24 million, while the average fast-food worker's wage only increased 0.3%. Fast-food CEOs make 1,000 times more than the average worker in the industry, according to Demos.

U.S. census data show that the face of the fast-food worker has changed dramatically over the years. Workers over the age of 20 now make up 70% of the workforce and nearly 40% have children. A third of them have spent some time in college.

Salgado, who didn't finish high school, said she'll do whatever she has to to win the fight for a $15 minimum wage and a union.

"My 8 year old daughter tells me 'Everything is OK mommy,' and I tell her, 'yes,'" said Salgado. "But when she goes to sleep I know it's not OK."


http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/01/news/companies/fast-food-worker-strike/

[bunklocoempire]

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y442/bunklocoempirehi/minimumwage15_zps9b0ba50b.jpg

[RonPaulIsGreat]

Look for the burger flipper robot stock to skyrocket!

[CaptUSA]

http://nebraskaenergyobserver.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/xsnje74.jpg

[green73]

The quotes in title are mine, not WaPo's.



NEW YORK — McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food restaurants are expected to be targeted with acts of civil disobedience that could lead to arrests Thursday as labor organizers escalate their campaign to unionize the industry’s workers.

Kendall Fells, an organizing director for Fast Food Forward, said in an interview that workers in a couple of dozen cities were trained to peacefully engage in civil disobedience ahead of this week’s planned protests.

Fells declined to say what exactly is in store for the protests in around 150 U.S. cities. But workers involved in the movement recently cited sit-ins as an example of strategies they could use to intensify their push for higher pay and unionization. Past protests have targeted a couple of restaurants in each city.

The “Fight for $15” campaign is being backed by the Service Employees International Union and has gained national attention at a time when growing income disparities have become a hot political issue.

President Obama and others have said raising wages for those at the bottom of the economic ladder could help strengthen the middle class.

cont.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/fast-food-workers-plan-acts-of-peaceful-civil-disobedience/2014/09/01/acf4f38e-3228-11e4-a723-fa3895a25d02_story.html

[DamianTV]

Revolution comes in roughly three stages.

Stage 1: The spread of information. This is where the identification of specific problems occurs. It is, in essence, what this entire forum is about. Trying to identify the root problems and make meaningful peaceful change.

Stage 2: Public Disobedience. Once problems become severe enough, people start to disobey. They recognize the problem is the laws themselves are designed to enslave them, not to free them. This is starting to happen in this example, in places like Ferguson, Bundy Ranch in Nevada, the Occupy Movement, etc.

Stage 3: Violent Revolution. This is a worst case scenario. Unfortunately, it is already happening in many places around the world right at this very moment. It has been going on in Syria for several years, and many other places that the US has gotten involved with. It needs to be avoided at all costs as that is where the consequences result in human lives. If people were unwilling to participate in either of the first two stages, this stage is very likely to fail. Those who are unaware of why they are fighting will not be able to achieve anything by fighting.

The Level of Tyranny in this country is reaching critical mass. Teachers are arrested for writing books about school shootings, people are shot by cops practically on a daily basis with no measure of recourse, parents are criminalized over vaccines and disobedience to the Medical Industrial Complex, people are demonized for upholding the values of a free society with a limited government. People are going to disobey. And I fear this is exactly what the powers that be are trying to provoke. They want violence because it is the one thing they are exceedingly good at. They sure as shit dont want to solve the problems because that leaves more for those at the bottom and undermines the authority of the very tippy top. Our laws have been weaponized against the people they are supposed to protect. And provoking violence to enact a permanent state of Martial Law is the only way they know how to keep their power.

We are transitioning from Brave New World where citizens are distracted with drugs and entertainment and waking up to 1984 where Big Brother literally has a gun pointed at your head every second of every day. If we do not make meaningful change soon, very few of us truly realize just how screwed we really are.

[Ronin Truth]

They may want to round up some smarter folks to lead it.

[tod evans]

If we do not make meaningful change soon, very few of us truly realize just how screwed we really are.

Meaningful change won't be brought around with signs and chants anymore than through a Diebold machine.....

[juleswin]

They may want to round up some smarter folks to lead it.

You make a grave mistake by underestimating your opponent. They have smart people behind them, but they put up the "common man" type to give the illusion that they came up with the idea instead of some political operative in Washington whose goal is just to rally more democrats to the polls come voting time.

No fast food worker in their right mind is insane enough to ask for $15/hr for what he/she does. This kind of lunacy comes straight from Washington.n

[Ronin Truth]

You make a grave mistake by underestimating your opponent. They have smart people behind them, but they put up the "common man" type to give the illusion that they came up with the idea instead of some political operative in Washington whose goal is just to rally more democrats to the polls come voting time.

No fast food worker in their right mind is insane enough to ask for $15/hr for what he/she does. This kind of lunacy comes straight from Washington.n
Good point! ;) :)

[Acala]

This is going to send the price of grass-fed beef and fresh vegetables through the roof! Oh wait . . .

[DamianTV]

Meaningful change won't be brought around with signs and chants anymore than through a Diebold machine.....

Exactly why Stage 2 is now in effect. The Civil Disobedience is mostly localized right now, but will soon become widespread and wont be limited to specific incidents either.

[hardrightedge]

Meet Pepper...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HXhsKpETXE

[kylejack]

Kudos to these workers for engaging in free speech and freedom of association.

[Acala]

Kudos to these workers for engaging in free speech and freedom of association.

Too bad they don't realize that doubling their wages will mean that many of them will be out of work.

[The Free Hornet]

No fast food worker in their right mind is insane enough to ask for $15/hr for what he/she does. This kind of lunacy comes straight from Washington.n

If the average is worth $8, I suspect many shift supers, line leaders, and the better cashiers can easily be worth $15. However, they are dragged down by the $4 workers getting paid twice as much. I have no evidence for that aside from being in lots of situations where adding more dumbfucks doesn't help but some smart leadership does. And a cashier can lead too by not wasting time on the regulars (whose orders she knows) and helping the guy with the 'uhhhmmms' by telling him about the special sandwich du jour (plus they know how to upsell and - also important - how not to upsell).

[mad cow]

I remember pulling up to a Taco Bell take out window many years ago on a busy night.
You can look through the window right into the kitchen and the dude there was turning out and wrapping tacos and burritos quicker than I can type about it,quicker than I could possibly do it after working there for a few years.

He was probably getting the same wage as the girl at the window who rang up my order on a cash register with pictures of food on the keys because of minimum wage laws.

[tsai3904]

LA City Councilman wants to raise minimum wage so poor can buy Starbucks coffee


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-ozgCh6Ghs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-ozgCh6Ghs

[Jackie Moon]

Kudos to these workers for engaging in free speech and freedom of association.

I agree. There's nothing wrong with employees asking for higher wages. Nothing wrong with organizing, or striking.

The problem comes when they want to get the government involved and use force.


Nancy Salgado, a 27 year old single mother of a 3 year old boy and an 8 year old girl, plans to strike.

Salgado works at a McDonald's in the Logan Square area of Chicago earning $8.25 an hour, or about $600 a month take home pay.

The right way for her to make more than $8.25 an hour is to become so valuable to her employer that he decides it's better to pay her more to stay than to let her leave and replace her with someone new.

[John F Kennedy III]

I work at McDonalds. But I know math. You won't see me pushing for $15/hr. I'd be lucky to get enough hours to still get the same paycheck.

[John F Kennedy III]

They love to mention how much the CEOs make compared to us. For better or worse it's the top level people making the big money decisions.

Listen up statists, flipping burgers don't equal $9,000/hr.

[kylejack]

Organizing a union and striking are legitimate free market actions. McDonald's employees in some countries like Denmark are making $21 an hour, so don't tell me they can't still turn a profit. If you don't want to strike that's up to you, but why criticize others for putting pressure on the bosses for more money? No skin off your nose. Let them do their thing.

[kylejack]

The right way for her to make more than $8.25 an hour is to become so valuable to her employer that he decides it's better to pay her more to stay than to let her leave and replace her with someone new.
Sometimes employers don't pay their employees a fair market rate because they want to save money. Strikes help expose these cases. The employer can then either find others willing to do the work for the same price or pay the existing workers more. Nothing wrong with that.

[Acala]

Sometimes employers don't pay their employees a fair market rate because they want to save money. .

False. Sellers of labor (the workers) and buyers of labor (the employer) arrive at a wage rate through a market process. The employer will try to pay as little as possible to get the labor needed to do the job, but if an employer tries to buy labor at below the market rate, nobody will sell - nobody will take the job.

Strikes are an attempt to artificially restrict the supply of labor to boost prices. As long as there is no violence, destruction of property, or interference with people's movement, then I have no complaint. I also have no complaint if the employer fires them all and replaces them from the long line of people willing to work for the wages being offered.

[Acala]

The right way for her to make more than $8.25 an hour is to become so valuable to her employer that he decides it's better to pay her more to stay than to let her leave and replace her with someone new.

And perhaps not have children she can't afford to raise? Science actually has a pretty good idea how children happen and there are reliable ways to avoid it.

[kylejack]

False. Sellers of labor (the workers) and buyers of labor (the employer) arrive at a wage rate through a market process. The employer will try to pay as little as possible to get the labor needed to do the job, but if an employer tries to buy labor at below the market rate, nobody will sell - nobody will take the job.

Strikes are an attempt to artificially restrict the supply of labor to boost prices. As long as there is no violence, destruction of property, or interference with people's movement, then I have no complaint. I also have no complaint if the employer fires them all and replaces them from the long line of people willing to work for the wages being offered.
There's nothing artificial about the labor supply created by a strike. If I refuse to work for you for X dollars I'm not available to you as labor supply at that price. I'm a free individual and don't have to work for a wage I don't find sufficient.

This is just the free market at work. Employers don't have to pay a wage they consider too high and employees don't have to work at a wage they consider too low.

[DamianTV]

War of Escalation.

The thing is, this is inevitable. But as soon as these guys get $15 an hour for minimum wage, prices on everything will go up to the point that it completely nullifies the quantity increase of the raise. The increase in quantity will decrease the value of each individual dollar. Then people will want $20 an hour minimum wage. Prices again will increase, and that minimum wage increase will again be nullified. Then up to $25 bucks per hour for minimum wage. Followed by $30. Then $40, then $50, $60, $70. It wont stop. Unemployment will continue to rise. More jobs will be handed over to the less expensive robots. Disposable people will have been completely disposed of.

[Jackie Moon]

Sometimes employers don't pay their employees a fair market rate because they want to save money. Strikes help expose these cases. The employer can then either find others willing to do the work for the same price or pay the existing workers more. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree that striking and petitioning your employer for higher wages is fine and sometimes necessary.

Then the employer either decides it's worth the extra money to keep his current employees or finds someone else willing to work for less.

The problem comes when they instead want to get government involved to force the employer to pay higher wages.

[John F Kennedy III]

Organizing a union and striking are legitimate free market actions. McDonald's employees in some countries like Denmark are making $21 an hour, so don't tell me they can't still turn a profit. If you don't want to strike that's up to you, but why criticize others for putting pressure on the bosses for more money? No skin off your nose. Let them do their thing.

Actually now it would negatively effect me so fuck no $15/hr.

[kylejack]

If the wages of your coworkers was raised to $15 per hour, I'm sure they'd be willing to give you a lot more hours at $8/hr or whatever, since you would then be cheaper.

[mad cow]

If the wages of your coworkers was raised to $15 per hour, I'm sure they'd be willing to give you a lot more hours at $8/hr or whatever, since you would then be cheaper.

Not if it was against the law!
That's the whole point.

[kylejack]

Not if it was against the law!
That's the whole point.
The strike is mainly against the companies. I know a few of them have asked for minimum wage to be raised, but in general this movement has been to get the companies to raise wages.

[mad cow]

The strike is mainly against the companies. I know a few of them have asked for minimum wage to be raised, but in general this movement has been to get the companies to raise wages.

I have no problem with them striking for $100 an hour as long as they leave the Government out of it.

Then,of course,you're right.The man asking for $8 an hour would get all the hours he wants.
Ain't the free market grand?

[kylejack]

As per the articles in the OP, "McDonald's line cooks, Burger King cashiers and other fast-food restaurant workers across the U.S. plan to walk off the job on Thursday in an ongoing battle with their employers to gain a $15 hourly wage, organizers said on Monday."

[erowe1]

Look for the burger flipper robot stock to skyrocket!

What are some good public corporations to look at for this angle?

[mad cow]

As per the articles in the OP, "McDonald's line cooks, Burger King cashiers and other fast-food restaurant workers across the U.S. plan to walk off the job on Thursday in an ongoing battle with their employers to gain a $15 hourly wage, organizers said on Monday."

The article also says:

The protests, announced on Twitter by organizer Fight For 15, come as cities across the nation propose minimum wage increases while Democrats seek to raise the federal minimum wage ahead of this year's mid-term congressional elections.

[kylejack]

The article also says:
Democrats in public office seek to raise the minimum wage, yes. Not the protesters, necessarily.

Also, it's moot because Democrats do not have a majority in Congress. They will not be able to raise the minimum wage ahead of this year's mid-term elections.

[euphemia]

They love to mention how much the CEOs make compared to us. For better or worse it's the top level people making the big money decisions.

The people who have the most to risk are those who have a financial investment in the company. That's the part people fail to see.

People who expect $15 an hour should improve their English and math and get better jobs somewhere else. As it happens I worked McDonalds in a couple of the best stores in the nation. The technology has improved so dramatically they don't need to know as much as I did 25+ years ago when minimum wage was about $3.20 an hour. McD's has regular wage and performace reviews. You want more money? Earn it.

[kylejack]

That would have been at least 33 years ago.

[mad cow]

That would have been at least 33 years ago.

And 33 years ago,and tomorrow,the minimum wage should have been $0.00 an hour.

It is none of the Government's business what anybody wants to sell an hour of his labor for or what anybody else is willing to pay for it.

[kylejack]

And 33 years ago,and tomorrow,the minimum wage should have been $0.00 an hour.

It is none of the Government's business what anybody wants to sell an hour of his labor for or what anybody else is willing to pay for it.
The strike and protest are about the rate between employer and employee.

[mad cow]

The strike and protest are about the rate between employer and employee.

Also nobodies business but those that agreed to the contract.As long as you agree,we have no argument.

What's the ratio between Bezos and an Amazon warehouse worker?Walton and a Wal-Mart stock boy?Between Jobs and an Apple store genius?

Who cares?Don't like the pay,don't take the job.Don't like the ratio,don't take the job.

[LibForestPaul]

Meaningful change won't be brought around with signs and chants anymore than through a Diebold machine.....

Dammit, I didn't want to log in tonight.

[kylejack]

Also nobodies business but those that agreed to the contract.As long as you agree,we have no argument.

What's the ratio between Bezos and an Amazon warehouse worker?Walton and a Wal-Mart stock boy?Between Jobs and an Apple store genius?

Who cares?Don't like the pay,don't take the job.Don't like the ratio,don't take the job.
Right.

Which is why I said I respect workers' and employers' right to freely associate and their freedom of speech.

[euphemia]

That would have been at least 33 years ago.

Indeed. I'm a grandmother.

[CaseyJones]

Here's The Burger-Flipping Robot That Could Put Fast-Food Workers Out Of A Job

http://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-machines-burger-robot-2014-8


A company called Momentum Machines has built a robot that could radically change the fast-food industry and have some line cooks looking for new jobs.

The company's robot can "slice toppings like tomatoes and pickles immediately before it places the slice onto your burger, giving you the freshest burger possible." The robot is "more consistent, more sanitary, and can produce ~360 hamburgers per hour." That's one burger every 10 seconds.

The next generation of the device will offer "custom meat grinds for every single customer. Want a patty with 1/3 pork and 2/3 bison ground to order? No problem."

Momentum Machines cofounder Alexandros Vardakostas told Xconomy his "device isn’t meant to make employees more efficient. It’s meant to completely obviate them." Indeed, marketing copy on the company's site reads that their automaton "does everything employees can do, except better."

[DamianTV]

If we ever do manage to invent a human level of AI, guaranteed that the folks at the top will start feeling the pinch of obsolescence as well. Dont bother becoming a Stock Broker to rip people off, just let an AI do it for you! Dont bother with Cops, have an AI in your car that issues you tickets for any infractions, if youre even allowed to drive at all! Need a programmer? Just give it to the AI. Electronics Engineering? Give it to the AI. Math Teacher? Give it to the AI. Tax Attorney? Give it to the AI. Hell even the Courts will face obsolescence in the face of AI.

Then you have the next problem. The only way to be able to survive is to make the AI dependant on you. Who ever controls the AI will even be at risk of being replaced by the AI. It will start, bigtime, as a push to replace the exensive low hanging fruit, the minimum wage employees, and several steps up from the very bottom. Burger Flippers, Walmart Greeters, Stockers, Truck and Cab Drivers, Farming, Mining, maybe Construction. Then other jobs will be threatened. The more academic ones. CPAs, Doctors, Invention, etc. Once AI has the ability to replace the Status Quo at the top, they will panic, but by then, it will be too late for the rest of us. Keep in mind that we cant think in terms of Weeks or Months, but Centuries. This WILL happen.

It seems the only Freedoms we are being given any more is the Freedom from things we can no longer have. Freedom from Jobs. Freedom from Wealth. Freedom from having Health Insurance cuz we cant afford it. Freedom from Choice. Freedom from Success. Freedom from Responsibility. Freedom from Speech. Freedom from Privacy. Freedom from Rights. Freedom from having a home. Freedom from owning a car or private property. Freedom from Representation.

Here is a riddle. What does the poor man have that the rich man wants? Nothing. The poor man has nothing and the rich man wants nothing. We will have Freedom from everything that we do want, and left everything we dont want.

[mello]

I think of the unintended consequences of what will happen if they do get $15 per hour.

• The price of your meal will go up.
• The big Fast Food chains will install automated kiosks for customers to order & pay themselves.
• Employees will probably be fired (around 25-50%).
• Any employee still there will have hours cut so they are not full-time.
• A large chunk of mom and pop restaurants will be forced to close because they can no longer afford to stay in business.
• A large uptick of people applying for unemployment / government assistance.

Can anyone think of anything else that may happen?

[dannno]

I remember pulling up to a Taco Bell take out window many years ago on a busy night.
You can look through the window right into the kitchen and the dude there was turning out and wrapping tacos and burritos quicker than I can type about it,quicker than I could possibly do it after working there for a few years.

He was probably getting the same wage as the girl at the window who rang up my order on a cash register with pictures of food on the keys because of minimum wage laws.

I knew a guy who could roll a joint one handed while driving a stick shift.

[Philhelm]

I think of the unintended consequences of what will happen if they do get $15 per hour.

• The price of your meal will go up.
• The big Fast Food chains will install automated kiosks for customers to order & pay themselves.
• Employees will probably be fired (around 25-50%).
• Any employee still there will have hours cut so they are not full-time.
• A large chunk of mom and pop restaurants will be forced to close because they can no longer afford to stay in business.
• A large uptick of people applying for unemployment / government assistance.

Can anyone think of anything else that may happen?

The people hoping for the raise are slitting their own throats as they will be replaced by other people with degrees, clean criminal records, better language skills, better appearance, etc. Hell, I'd consider quitting my job to flip burgers for $15/hr., and I'm sure that a college degree would become a requirement for employment, and I'm sure there are many grads that would love to earn $15/hr. This would result in:

-Easier verbal communication.
-Higher order accuracy.
-Less theft.
-Less spitting/urinating/splooging in food.
-Greater compliance with health protocol.
-Better customer service.
-Higher employee moral.

[dannno]

Here's The Burger-Flipping Robot That Could Put Fast-Food Workers Out Of A Job


The next generation of the device will offer "custom meat grinds for every single customer. Want a patty with 1/3 pork and 2/3 bison ground to order? No problem."
http://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-machines-burger-robot-2014-8

Now that's what I'm talking about..

[aGameOfThrones]

The people hoping for the raise are slitting their own throats as they will be replaced by other people with degrees, clean criminal records, better language skills, better appearance, etc. Hell, I'd consider quitting my job to flip burgers for $15/hr., and I'm sure that a college degree would become a requirement for employment, and I'm sure there are many grads that would love to earn $15/hr. This would result in:

-Easier verbal communication.
-Higher order accuracy.
-Less theft.
-Less spitting/urinating/splooging in food.
-Greater compliance with health protocol.
-Better customer service.
-Higher employee moral.


why would they hire a,

"Salgado, who didn't finish high school, said she'll do whatever she has to to win the fight for a $15 minimum wage and a union,"

when they can hire someone with some form of college education?


BTW, I read that they are blocking traffic to fight for 15.

[Philhelm]

why would they hire a,

"Salgado, who didn't finish high school, said she'll do whatever she has to to win the fight for a $15 minimum wage and a union,"

when they can hire someone with some form of college education?

Good point. If Salgado is attractive and will really do whatever she has to do in order to keep the position, she could provide a challenge.

[aGameOfThrones]

..



Fast-food workers in Minneapolis, around country rally for better pay

Some workers at McDonald’s and other Twin Cities restaurants Thursday joined a nationwide “strike” against fast-food chains for better pay.

The strike was more of a protest than a mass walkout, one aimed at focusing attention on fast-food wages. The protestors’ message, being played out in cities across the country Thursday, is that wages now in the $8 to $9 range should be $15 an hour — and that workers should unionize.

“It’s really important to raise the wage so I can support my family economically,” said Eneida Jaimes, a striking worker at the Uptown Minneapolis McDonald’s.

Jaimes, who has two daughters ages 12 and 14, said she’s worked at the Uptown McDonald’s for 10 years and gets paid $8.90 an hour.

She was among about 25 workers at 10 restaurants locally who walked out on their jobs Thursday, said Brian Payne, director of Centro de Trabajadores Unidos en la Lucha (CTUL), which organized the Twin Cities event. About half of those restaurants were McDonald’s, he said, but the strike has also targeted Burger King and Subway.

Workers and labor supporters held demonstrations at two local McDonald’s, one at 1440 Stinson Blvd. in Minneapolis, the second at 2929 Hennepin Ave. S. in Uptown.

Around 12:30 p.m., about 75 protestors massed at the Uptown restaurant, chanting slogans like, “Hey McDonald’s, you’re no good, pay your workers like you should.” The demonstration broke up peacefully.

http://www.startribune.com/business/274001191.html







Arrests in fast-food worker strikes

NEW YORK (CNNMoney)

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/140904142150-civil-disobedience-620xa.jpg

Fast-food workers have made good on a promise of civil disobedience in protests aimed at boosting pay to $15 an hour and allowing them to join a union without retaliation.

There were 19 arrests Thursday morning for obstructing traffic outside of a McDonald's in New York's Times Square.

But that number is expected to grow after a midday protest outside another McDonald's (MCD)a few blocks away.

"There have been more arrests since this morning," said Detective Marc Nell of the New York Police Department.

In Detroit, police said 30 people were detained outside a McDonald's, with 24 of them being ticketed for disorderly conduct and six people arrested for outstanding traffic warrants.

In Chicago, police said 19 people were detained and ticketed for standing in the roadway near a McDonald's.

In Milwaukee, police said 27 people were arrested and cited for disorderly conduct related to disrupting traffic outside a McDonald's.

One of those arrested was Rep. Gwen Moore, a Wisconsin Democrat, who received a $691 ticket for disorderly conduct. Her office in Washington said she will pay out of her own pocket.

McDonald's said Thursday's events were "staged demonstrations" in which people were transported to fast-food locations with the help of union organizers.

"We've had no reports thus far of service disruptions," the company said in a news release.


The actions are the latest in a two-year effort by fast-food workers to get employers to pay a minimum wage of $15 an hour and allow them to form unions.

The average pay for a food prep and service worker is $8.74 an hour, or about $18,000 a year. That's roughly $5,000 lower than the Census Bureau's poverty threshold level of $23,000 for a family of four.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/09/04/news/companies/fast-food-strikes/

[Carlybee]

http://www.click2houston.com/news/fast-food-workers-protest-for-higher-wages/27881008

[phill4paul]

Fast food workers are subsidized workers. What they cannot afford taxpayers make up in enforced charity. The government should be entirely out of the debate. Let the workers find resolve on their own. One random day a week, with so large a majority of strikers, could convince corporate chains to change policy. Without government interference.

[juleswin]

Fast food workers are subsidized workers. What they cannot afford taxpayers make up in enforced charity. The government should be entirely out of the debate. Let the workers find resolve on their own. One random day a week, with so large a majority of strikers, could convince corporate chains to change policy. Without government interference.

If the damage from the strikes were big enough, the corporate chains might decided to go with a more reliable source of workers.

Edit: the picture I was trying to post is not exactly coming out right. So just imagine a conveyor belt and cooker preparing your orders

say hello to your new and improved burger flipper. $15 is so unrealistic a number that no manager is going to sit down with anyone starting at $15. I wish more people will start asking what happened to the $15+ factory jobs the US used to have and why is there so much inflation? but no, they want a $15 minimum wage.

[mad cow]

If the damage from the strikes were big enough, the corporate chains might decided to go with a more reliable source of workers.

data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxQSEhQUEhQVFhQUFBUYGBUXFRgXFRUUFxQXFhQVFB UZHCggGBomHBcUITEhJSkrLi4uFx80ODMsNygtLisBCgoKDg0O FxAQGiwgHxwsLCwsLCssLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLC wsLCwsLCwsKywsLCwsLCwsLCwsK//AABEIAMIBAwMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAbAAABBQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFAAIDBAYBB//EAEgQAAEDAQUCCgUJBgcAAwEAAAEAAhEDBAUSITFBUQYTImFxg ZGhsdEWMkJUwQcUIzNScpTS8FNigpKishUkQ5PC4fE0Y3MX/8QAGQEBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF/8QAJREBAAMAAQQCAgIDAAAAAAAAAAECEQMSITFBBFETIjORFEJ h/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwC1YOCFidVqA2amQAIEHzRIcCbB7rS7D5q 3dQ+lq9DfAIxCzqs96EWD3Sl2HzS9CLv90pdh81oUkGe9CLB7p S7D5rh4E2D3Sl2HzWihcITRmLPwLsBrOHzWlhFJxiDEyI286n9 Cbv8AdKXYfNHbLT+ked1M/wDFSIM96EXf7pS7D5pehFg90pdh81oUkGe9Cbv90pdh81z0JsH ulLsPmtFCUIM76E2D3Sl2HzS9CbB7pS7D5rQwlCDP0+A1hcQBZ KUnmPmjVP5ObtAg2SkeeDM9qDcJLxewhlNxaYlxaYJ3CdRv6wt HwMvF1az8sy5ji2d4gOHiR1LtPDaKdbHXHVgXU+Tm7tllpjqJ+ KrVfk6sWyzUewj4rZWh0OPQD3ZoRUvV2rGS0bTt6Fw2W2Su75P 7MynFayUy6TnrlszBU54FWD3Wl2HzWss15NcYILT3FdtrAQHRB 8QU2RkfQuwe60uw+a56F2D3Wl2HzWhIXFRn/Qywe60uw+aaeBlg91pdh81oYXCgz/oZYPdaXYfNN9DbD7rS7D5rQlNQAPQ2w+60uw+aY/gbYfdaXYfNaApr0GQurgnY3VK4dZ6ZDX5Ag5AzkM0RPA2w+60u w+atXWIrWjnc0/0jzRNxQAW8DrDn/laXYd3Su+hth91pdh80Ys5JmDtOzoTi+DEt7YVyQF9DbD7rS7D 5pI1xnR2/9JJkhtz/AFtXq8Ai6E3N9ZW6R4BF1AkoXUoQchcIT4XCEEtjp8iq7q7goY Vyxj6Gr94eAVWEDYShOhJA2FyE+EoQMhKFJhXIQYe/3zWqcxjsAHwWh+Tepya42A0z2h/kFmb5P0tT7x8StD8mmlp+9SHY1x+IX0uT+D+nmr/IP33UgO+55yqjLxGADC3CO47Nqs3sRjIOmEfHzQNllwDPmIzgx zbM14+CKzb9ne252Fm0BUEsMFvKDefm7FZfVxMB+22fMLO2a8H U3SOfrnKEXpnDTpsOrQSelxmOzxU54pFv1K7nc2FyE8ri5NGLh TiFxA0ppCeVxAwpjlI4JrggGWFsV6vPH9rVfqDJQUKcVHO3geA XK9tAkN5RGu4dLtB4qhUTDTrm8jJRWi1jRkuI1iIEbC45Dx5kO q2suyaC/PRkimCftO293Qpm3aXfWOy/ZtEMHWIJ7lqNRE+8886tMHdhmOvEJ7ElfbZQBADQBsAgdiSdIt XJ69b7w8EXmNckG4P61vv7VBclIW2q9lQPxUwMWMBrWuOrWsJn LfEZLfFxdfmciGbWwcba6ZMB7Cd2IT4qZALysNKgTABju6EMp3 +Q7CXOw7NJHcvRb4VvNZ1iOaPbZJFAaF8H7c6atHiFZbfLTu8O 9cL/ABuSvmG45KyOWN3JqjmB/tUQChuu0h/GEfZ8MCnXCWnElSvi8eIYHYC4uMAaAZEy47slVsN+Yxm0A9Pmu kcVpr1R4TqjcGElR/xRswWkeCitN/U2esHdIErPRP0uiaSp2O96NUwyoJ+ycj1A6q9CkxMeTXn1+iK1 T758VoPkwaRStBJmbREwBpTY4ARuDwEM4R3JVrWkhtRlOm5oJO IcY7QEARyBMZneivB+jWsYNM0RxBknC7FUxQOWc+VIAyG4RovX yc1Z4orDlWk9WiV51PpXc0DuCr451z6c0HvLhHSDieWZcdGnIb JlQM4TUD7RHS0j4Lw+3ceaGgyGNB38o9gcSAntdJHOULo3pSf6 tRp6wr1mMuCC+VwhOIXCFpDCE0hSFNhAxNKeVwoGlMKemlABqv rOdgLASWBxGLDTEkgAn136HYBzKVl2A/WuxxowDDTH8I168uZWqn17P/yPc4KcrSGWezy0BoAAechlAgaDRTvs2UqAPIaYJ9bySrVs+Ud3 YVuPCI3vAOi4kWgpLXYOuE5VvvH4ptuoMeQXtDiNHZh7fuvBDg OtO4PvhtUnTG6ejMEjtUtookzgIdugcrrYM+yQuUTMd4WY0GvG 42V2hrqlaAZEvxgHCRqczqdSVAeDk/6p2asHmustVqZk9lJzh9ipgOuch2n/AGnUb4qT9LR4tuEku41joMiGw3PMSepda/L5I9k/HjN7IbNcL3uD6VUudhw4cDoAEgy0HIzPWFJVsNduTsE7nYm9xC 03yfVqZoE0wWtc90SSScPI1JJjk5LTVrM14hwDhuOa6/5fJHiXL8VWJ4ECrSq1eMjBUDcLQQQC0GStpaHgFuhB+IPkELrX K0OBpktOuH1h1HUdZUNubUbhORiDAMmGnMxuXnvebz1S6RGdhG 22Nlem+nABIkHc4Zg/rnXnNWpUoGOLqFwkEnNvS3ANFrKd5565LOXhSc6q57ajocXHDJ AktDdh2Q3s5yt8XNNIzNhm1NCbdfJawveDiEZTGpA25jsROy2l tWm3QgtB1G0aHnTXsqgRlUGKSHEGWTMCfajLcqjaDZbipOpuOE YmOIGcCYzAEzzgRvXpr8njnzGMTS3qVa12fCcjGeWmozgI/wAH+EjqbhTtMlhgNedWk5AOP2ecoVWujjXAGpUBYQ4EhhhwiII g7euCrVqsQp03Pe8uwtJHJa0TECYz1jary83DaqVraJb6nZA0Y qZGJ3KxOE4pjIkEbolTl+Q8N3MgfB63l1lpyZcwBpPgr3znI/eHeF4HY6vYKT/WY0nfGZQO97gpgtcymCzR7QBO0gh2uZgQATzIyLQl86A1VpMRO 4TGgLOBtItBcMNTU4c2gzIGczGXYilnsNRntNfzkAO6yFa48Lv HBYlXC07RmmwhvCbG6h9GQHBwmQSMJyOh3xmsi3g89xD3PYGtk EDHLyRlviCJyW6VifM4kzjfkJpWGs1O00pFKriAJ/1WkgiRHLjcew7lLZ71vARiol+/6sjtaSV0/B9WhOv/AI2cJpQu6L2fVcWVaNSk8CZLTgI012FFCuVqzWclqJ1xNKco3P G8doWcA+t9cz7jx3g/BWiqtf66l/H4FW4WhAdD94fBdqUpXHaO6WlcdXzjd0rUIdh6ElzjR+gfJJUN uJn0dUDUudrpOevMhbrfFUUvVdObHmHtEHNuxwmMxIRfg66WOP 77vFXLdd9Ku3DVY14Gk6j7pGY6lzjPayHsrGIOY3OAI7DkpKVG g48qkBztJHdMeCFWvg3XpQbHXOEHOlW5Qjc1/ZrHSoaN5V6WVps1Ru99NuNvSQCYHQSunRvidZ37a9tSnTDRSya BERzk9e1XKdtgEnYO1ZZttY8S2o0jp27iDp1qxStMtyMiQZBBG u9Z8K0brUcmZYnHlOjZ5bOgJWy6KGIV8P0tNpDajSWvAcRLcjB BICyV+XyaDC8GHOc0N6Jl2oIHJDtivXVwvZUAFQDPoae31Xf0r rXhtavVDM3iJyUN40KhJOATriAyIkesBBmJzz6UAr2zDUDMMzJ JnQCObn7luxeFlqyBVYHN1EgPbt5TT1dqr2a57M6pjDsZJy0ie YRmuU8do9NbDO0ab3iWU3uH7rSY7FG98GDkRsORHUt08YRDXuy 2GC39dCCXzSbWGYPGtIgj1ug/aaf/ADNSM9gDZ8sRnUz0CAPght90KldzWCeLGbtYLssPTGatVaVoD3 NBptwwMLmuxTGZMbDqIUlh48F3GmmW5YcDXA7ZxSehZlrp7bqz dTzTaW6SB2hEadfkO++B2Mk/3BDalSMypadcmmzZOJ3aYb/S0KotmrIg7VXFvYyWA6SIh3J0nZmM00PTHUmkyWid8Znp3qC1/iDD7QO3MgZb8/1kpGWjaDluy8ULqWRh1bpzu58tdMzlzlSUaYYIbMTOe/agsXrafoX9A/uCiu22DCWvbkebEOvauh+eaqXhWrtcOJoUntjMmpxbgZOgwmRE JqxGr/zak4y0Cc9DETMmB0ntK6y7mlwILhG4jeDu3gHqQ6jWq1J42hxR AnE2q10mdMgEyjbKoqtYx0yTk7P7IH/JWJJjGku+wQ5xL3EZRJzESBn0QP4edPbUNWuabCWspxjMYS8kS GhxEEb4M5FVbZebaFJ1R8kNLQcIzJc4NEDpKv3RZyaLJ1LQ52R kl0uiZ2SulIjJmWJ3ss2qxscQ0sGYMmA7LdnvlUzwYsm2gzs8l JQim94aI9XKeZSWi24WOduaT2BSu+Iklhrwo0uPqMoji204ALS 8AmYdiz2c2xNtvB6s4h1OqzL/AO2pu2EN3wVnheZL3uOr3uJ6S6VobqtD30XGlU4txcBiwB4yGf Jy3jbsXt5t467DnT9pyU93G1UzgrAVGkjlY2lzc9STBcOqUXHr HM/w57faVW7w+AKtRtR8nlNZgBaNOTJ/RVqRE4ewk+AXj6uru7ZiU1BuPYkmBrTtjmxFJXAuDX1Z++UYBQ fg79V/EUVlcZVJK7KZK7KCOvZKb/Xpsd95jXeIS+bMDcIaABoGgNA6I0UsrhTZRi+HNL6MBsni3hzv ulpAPaQsnY7VGR0jsXpuEG0EEAgtAIIkERmCNyo3lwOo1JNL6N x2asJ8W9XYvZ8f5EUjJc701iLM0ML3NLvpHYnSdsAZZcw7ERs1 of7LiOvI9Sq3ldVWzuAeNRIgyIkjUdHeE6wVF9KtotHZ57RMNV wX4Uca59B5l9MkB20xqCNZG/aidsrQWu3OAJ5jl3GD2rHPtGCHDJzXA5DMwdu/LJHLwrPq1WWagOUXB1R08mlTHKl52TEAanONF8z5XHFbbHt347 bAle1kLm46ccYGnXRw+yfEdCGOsFqZTe6rxUjDgayTj1xCSRGQ EZbVp64aYDfZaBOkkbYVK+aocxkbT4Lz9XbHTGVB42o2KhwEHF TwcoERk585DM5ROWqMD4KCM52823XI79dqlxLCnkrkqOU4FA5K E13MjFnu5rYJlx59J6EGGt/CcMrGk2k54A9cGBI9bXs7VLT4TMAl1N4jYCD5LbWi7qLyS+lTc TtLRPbEoZV4K2UmeLjoe8fFdq2487wzMSB+lNnwhxLwCJzpnTf ki13WMVGMr0z67SRMiWmYPNqVas3B6zMMik0n94l/c4kIpKxbp/1WN9gF6XZVqNDABBe0uz9kZmN5kBaK4KruIa14AqDJwGmWQ15g FEVbs7WgDlCekdmalZyJj7We+Blts1UV3PaWOY4CRihzSMshEE daoXpaSKVQGQcDoB2nCdDtRo0cIOfX3z2koNbqeKQcxu3qx2nU eX2Wm6u8ikJMk5mBE6knetjcNDiKLWvc3HLiYeDBJ0nohVb74L U2+q8sa8tEFnGSXZASM42ZqrU4FCYqVOeA0AnscYXo5eWt48s1 rMNXRrHEACN87MiMslb+cH7I747wgd03XSswPFgy6MTi9xc6N8 YQOgK25+fsx93lT0uJC8254bXTaR9lnaF1CKttcCYJ/p/Iup1GDVw/VDpKJAobcn1Q/W1XwVlUkrsqOUi9BKCkSomPTnFANpO/zR+6P7SjIKBUXf5s9HwKNgoiG8LCyuzA8dBGrTvB/UrHWrg7VpHktL272Ce7ULcSuyu3HzW4/DNqRZ502661TAeKczEQfpBhLQD7TZk/Faew2UUhDdpJcdrnHVzjtJ/WiM16eIc/6yQ8pycs8k7KVrFfC/RAHKdp4qjeNbHnoBpz7FHWqk5boy5p70GtF7h1X5tSc01yxxA1 AIzwEiYcROumS4zOQ3ELS6k4EEtcMLhqF2EDQngJBqcGoJLGya jemezNHZQi7Byz934hFJVHSU2UiU1B2VwlNJTS9QOJUTbzElvG 0sQmQQ7KNZIyHWuVKsAnmQ6lVs1CHVsQrWkupsLZJJI5ZduABA nnSZn0uatVLWCJAYR9um8HPqzVam8k5GRPhmelALdcoL/oqtSmQRtxN27D5ojdNVzWtbUcH1DxhLm5ANa+B8FImfcGJ75zj mdTPY+R4J14nlzzBVr0fl1t7nJ1d8nqCpBpKhtVobTY57zDWgk ncBqnyhF+8t9no7KlXE8b2Um44PMXYEFB9e1PONrKbGuzDXk4w 06YoEAxnGxJErU7lFdQam6Pqmq7Ko3X9U3oVyUD5UNZyklQVzk pI7SerAfKHNcrVI5JApUf/lno+BRsFA6A/wAyT+sgUYBVRLKUpkrsoHyoa1CdMp/XUnyuyqAdrLi404OmQ2unaCMg1VRcrKRdUaxvGO1cBmAdgO7II 9anRyto7xuHOg9+XxgaZGExtImOcbOhY6f22V30GXhacNVtd9R wIZgcweq7CeQ7PQjlDnkTpmrsvUVMpB1II1GcGRtA39CbZbe2p TccOMPBbUa8ANEAlhaQQct2pJyGRQw0mUg12TadMTj1LftOcds 7tNkTrtdagFOVC23ZxrWYn1GhonkudTJkD15z2aFV7JdYpvBD6 pcAcn1S4RmJLJ03dIU76ZGeR+7ncv8AhPiETxIPdx5f8J/4olKMpS5MLkzEuYlQ4uTCVwlNJUAq8LaZGAEOlzQHhzDIyLmyM wJ1Weq3vXrYaXGioBUhuJjeTHrEPIBGn9K0drsjjULvWBDYBPq ls5tnQmR2LPuuisw1CGNeHZANcGYWkQ6AQQcsusqw14cs951Jl 7cicjnPNs3IlYHHFq3EKbRBOZDiX6dcrNW9pe4U20Xsg5zhmTm cxkNu9W69Uhzn4i0AiXCThYAJ54GYRF687e7E6mQ2Q1xmTscPJ XS95j1NOdZWvbHms9uoDCQZyy1gnM7TzohwdvNoaTaa2fLI0kt BgHCIz5lNBkl/7nehVWTa2aYmUKhGRww97Bntnkp1or1HsZUpua0OxEAuHqsBLi 6c92So8H31fnFdtoINRjWCQBGB5LmtBGo+MhNBC0WZ5cTLc42H ckiFFgInp7jCSA5d31behWZVWxeo3oVgFA+VXrnJTSq1oOSSIq ZVqk5U6ZU7HKQSr2Z/+ZI+94ORgFZmw1P89UG5p+K0YKqJJSxJkroKB8rqZKUqjtVgcC D/AOc6x/Ca6MDqdSHVKeKHtk5HYYGonwWuLlXtsFsHME5jqKgy930KlQMD QA0aYTDDvmRqcpJ3cwhzg6icbg3kObiacw0zIOYzEgdx1Wmu6n t3ZDmUV72DjBibGMDIHJrtzSYMZ5zmqac2uKgxDbsOw7QUHdYY rGoSSBjDZeSSHhpMCSIDg4AZZHmlXbvsnEgtccT3RLswDA9VrS ThAzy2zJldq0hrzzqg7Y/X6j8EQlDrP646HeCuyoHkrkpspSqESmkrpTHFQIlMcUiVGSgE3 jUp0zygcTiTyYJIO0NMTEg67Fy77BDZIaQ4Aw9knOScjkMzz7F X4RuhzTBPJdAAkzmdOpZmx2mrjLrQ54pQQ7FiGZAw4TsOR0RWh tdWyMqBlSjRD9R9FGgJkFoOwKd12WWpyjSZnnIe8TO3MhZm8KN HGMJMkcl+IvDhB3k5RtCI8F7NUtBLRVfTwOj2XNcCMokQIQFBw fsuxjxrpVcRmZ0kq1Suuk1xe3GHOa1py1DZLZy2SVnbxvCpZ3B rqgqboYGyJiNs6KK4LydUtFo5D2erixHaAWtDQBAB5XYg1TGYR AzGefX0riistWWNJJmN66oDdkacDcjpuU4Ydx7FNYqkMaOZWBU 6VrEUsDtx7FBWouPslGmPG8qy2r09aYMuyyVPslTCw1PsnuR+q 8ZaDrC6GHYpi6x9guauLZUqOZDHNgOxN1z2TK0Asb93ePNXzTP QonU3b+8q4it8zfuHaE11ncNnZmrHKHtd65xpHtfFMFMuXMStO rE6x1gKB1MHm61BHKgtRyHSPirBpbiFSvKQ0ZH1hpn4ILlkHJC kcVBRdDQEnVFpEdpbIyyOoPPsVdz5AO/NSVKqpVHQOSDlOR593kip6XrN6/BW25mEOsbXlw5Dtvsnd0IzYrMTJOUb5HSoGcQf0EuIPP2K8LOd 6Ro/veCmSvZRNHpTHUOlX+J5ylxY396ZIHGz9PYmGz85RPixu71WvG 006LC9w5gJzc7YAmSAN42M4w+cmxs051y2WLjBhqMa9u7TwQW2 Xg+s7E4xrAGQaObf0rZWOsHsYcpc0HrjNMGYqcH6ZwwKtMs9Ut hwGUe0CYhQ2fg+absVK0ET7LgWyT62h2ral0JAh2RHaFcTXm98 cHLSawqUwCG5tAcCRBlsAkKxZaNVjsFQPH0bOUWmOT7IdGfrE5 56rdvsrNxHQSEw0I0qdRj4ZpisiyqGiMQySR2vOIywHnAbB/qSUwFKAIaMxoN6mE83afJMotyHQFOxq0jrGu3gdp8laZQdtf2N jvkplNWqbkDG2VozMuPOZVlqQCe0qojIP/h84Ubwdx7W+athy7CoGua86Dtd5AqF9kqO1c0dAJ8YRchD77c4 Ui5pwkETG6Y+KgYy72jWSf1sTX3duK8r4VX9edKvhoVarqbmhw wtkt2EExzT1oI6/r4d7doH8LR4hZV7S6wPGglQV7K+PVK8ZN43u727Qeto8lWr1Lz 9t9eOeoI/uQe1NpEcydxjh7R7V41YbmvOuJYamHa51XC3btnPTYiNn4B3k/16oZyw0zWcSG5csYdRsiQT3rPVH2uPUnWh32/6/wDtQvtew1Gkbi8Ed5Xm9s+TS1icFoFTIRJeyTJmZcY0G+Z5kIH AK3kxg03vEaxkSYTrj7MeoWvhG2yYXPIfQmHlrsTqO55aDLmb4 07loKd92UgO+cUYIkHjG5g5g6rwUcEK4dheQxw2HEewq0OBz8M GpTy0MHfoTtC1Eo9udf8AYxraaP8AuBQVOFlhbra6I/jXkFj4L0qZ+lLajnHktkjIA4hAPKnuhHLPdlKnBFGmDzME82Z1 XDk+RFJyXenBNo1vDw1u/wB7pHoJPgFHaOG93sMOtLJGzC7yWXpWdrjhhs7AQIP7onKVUtF gY716TDP7jTG+SdO9c4+ZE+m5+NP21T/lDu4f6/Yx3kg3CO9haHgsniwBhnIkmCXEbNg6kEfwcspIfhwYXBwGgJGY G6ObJWH2mjhH0jDJIGEyZnOY0/8AF0p8itpyHK3DaprTmI0n9QvRaFkwU2NHstaJ26ZrzO11sNF7 qZBMEMP72jezXqWdsXC+2WXIufA35f8AR7F6HJ7HWs9TYSeuFD LmnlEjrHmshc/ymUn5WgO6jGfNsPaFtruvGyWgAsqNJOxxIPeYPUUFaoJJJk57/wDtSWeiN4HTKM/MGj2R2JCiBsHYpgoiiPtDsSRCBuXExT6Fl5Iy2DwTvmytUKfJb 0DwUnFq4ilxUJwCt8Uuiz8yYIGPhStrDcnfNUvmqB7Kw3KVtQK uLKU4WcoLGSgtlEPpvbvaR3ZLvFFOYCg82velhg9XkhpK0d/2b6xu4mOrMLJVLUBHwUFo1d/cBkOgDr2lPs1OnUqU21HfRlxk5tmAYAxAESYGzVC3W/KWjnjOfBVq94nIRBBBkHdnkdQZWZjsr1Lk0qZdADGNyDARA0Aj QeC5QtQqhr2HkZguxNgfeB29a8rt981ixzRaK4xAS0ubUYctvG AnsQe8rwtNRgHzl8RBbDWCN3IaJHSvP+KZ8umw9ss1qY4kU3Mf hyAnmEaNJOzvTLdb205eWPcAcJgF2WKMgOoryW677rsiK5bho8 WBgYQchnOGdx1BXad82trAOPrSAQGsa1rYxTmcJPgs/jsuw9B4XOa2k8zhykVHSWMcJguGsaAxnmFibuvdtcANc0OB5TS 0wfumfNBrfx9YQynaHuykv4x4jYQXaZrlzcF7QHhz6T2gZ+qZ7 xHeu/HWYjuxaY9NNarKyp64GXqkSHDXaNNSqdeyVAGilaXtDG4W4iHg N6HaabOpGBZan2Hf0j4pOsj9oA6SPNamsT5SLTHhlKrLc3JtfE N4wz05hVq4tzg4GpUIIg5t0BmNMs9y2Yu1x0bPRn4KdlwVjpTf/LU/Ip+Ov01+S3283Fmr6u4w9Lp+CJ3dd7mE5QIG2c95W6HBm0n/AEqn+26O9q56F2o/6Tp5mtHi4KxXEm2sjUp5aDLcI/RVavRB1/XUtq/5PrWYhpz3mm2Ox5U9L5NbRtdH8bfIlbYeX2u6WHTk+HYq/wA2qMcXUzh6HGO/Ves//wAsqn229dQ+Ap/FWafyV76jZ6XH4BFec3Rw7tdmgOLi0dY/lOXYAt3cnyn0amVZkHe04T/K4x/UiB+SlhHKqD+Un/kFyn8kFm2vJ/gI8ahRB1nCOxuAPGxOwsfPXAISQ9nyYWYCA+pA3RCSo8CHCu3e 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

say hello to your new and improved burger flipper

Scary picture,dude.

[aGameOfThrones]

Here's What the Owner of the Oldest Operating McDonald's Has to Say About Minimum Wage




Sixty-one years ago last month, the third-ever McDonald's opened in Downey, Calif., a suburb of Los Angeles and home to Apollo, the third-ever NASA manned spaceflight program. McDonald's went to 119 countries from Baku, Azerbaijan, to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; Apollo went to the moon.

.
Adam Chandler

A man who witnessed much of this history is Ron Piazza, who owns the landmark McDonald's in Downey —the world's oldest-operating McDonald's— along with nine other golden-arched franchises in the area.

Piazza is something of a throwback. Plainspoken and serious, he is the type of business owner whose name and phone number are printed at the bottom of all the customer receipts.

He started on the McDonald's fryers in 1967 when he was fifteen-years-old and worked his way up through the crew to management to ownership. Piazza remembers the introduction of breakfast, the Big Mac, the Beanie Baby Happy Meal craze, the veggie burger flop, and everything in between. He is also a steadfast advocate of not only (the perhaps bygone convention of) the American Dream, but of the American Dream actionably realized through a career at McDonald's.

As fast-food workers and their champions protest in 150 cities today in pursuit of a $15 minimum wage (with some arrests reported already), a wide gulf remains between the company line and the aspirations of the protestors. You'll no doubt be hearing about the demonstrations, which unions have encouraged two million home-care workers to participate in, as well as the calls for civil disobedience by organizers.

What you probably won't be hearing is the case against the minimum wage campaign. Enter Ron Piazza. The Wire caught up with him last month to talk about the business of fast food as well as his take on the ongoing efforts by fast-food workers and activists to push for a large minimum wage increase.
History of the Oldest-Operating McDonald's.


What fueled a public outrage about the possible destruction of a fundamentally inefficient McDonald's outpost (despite the fact that the fast-food enterprise's historical raison d'être was efficiency) is one lens through which the ongoing debate about the minimum wage can be viewed.

The American Dream embodied by long tenures at the same company, a gold watch, a retirement egg, and a living wage all sound like the rhetorical hokum of an erstwhile era. The argument posited by protestors, pundits, politicians, and others is that this model no longer applies as education has become more expensive and income inequality has grown.

We're a company where more people have come up through the ranks and become successful than maybe any other company in maybe the world.”

As the Times noted, President Obama gave a verbal nod to the campaign unfolding across the country today in a speech he delivered on Labor Day:

“All across the country right now there’s a national movement going on made up of fast-food workers organizing to lift wages so they can provide for their families with pride and dignity.”

In his speech on Monday, President Obama also added that he would join a union if he were a fast-food worker.

But Piazza pushes back against the idea that the minimum wage and poverty are inextricably linked.

I started at a dollar an hour. Poverty is as severe as it was when I was making a dollar an hour. The minimum wage increase, frankly, hasn't reduced our poverty problem.

Do I think it’s fair that people live in poverty? Of course not. But I don’t know how you can say that business is responsible for that."

As we noted, McDonald's was dealt a serious blow in late July after the National Labor Relations Board ruled that both the McDonald's Corporation and its franchisees were jointly responsible for the treatment of its workers. This precedent set workers at McDonald's and other fast-food restaurants on a course toward unionization, a long elusive goal and means by which employees could more effectively file unfair practice complaints.


It was in the wake of that decision that we sat down with Piazza at the Downey McDonald's. He not only pointed to the company's humble roots, but traced a different trajectory for its workers than the characterizations made in the minimum wage debate.

We're an all-American company and we are one of the few countries that was built by its bootstraps. Every one of my managers started as a crew person on french fries, my supervisors, my son, myself. I have four people who worked for me who went on to own their own McDonald's restaurants. I would say that we're a company where more people have come up through the ranks and become successful than maybe any other company in maybe the world."

Piazza told me the story of a man he had just promoted from manager to supervisor who had escaped the killing fields of Cambodia with his mother and made it to America.

They went to New York and first thing off the boat, they went to McDonald's for food. He said 'Mom, I'm going to work there someday.' He came to work and I hired him when he was 15-and-a-half. He worked his way up to crew and then management, became a U.S. citizen, a store manager, and now a supervisor. We have those kinds of examples all the time."

The Minimum Wage

If that story sounds a bit old school, it's because Piazza (and many other business owners like him) still believe that hard work is the pathway to both advancement and wages.

When you raise the minimum wage you’re asking everybody to weigh in on the poverty situation. What you’re not saying is that the job is worth any more.

As he recently told a junior high school: "There is so much opportunity in America for those who want to work hard."


Piazza says his managers make roughly $55,000 per year, which he notes is more than a teacher ("a noble profession"), and that his employees can flourish no matter "what schooling you have."

"People think we're a dead-end job. Well, I'm not a dead-ender. I've got 585 employees and 55 managers, they're not dead-enders."

As for the minimum wage, Piazza sees it as a disincentive for hard work. For an example, he went through the hypothetical hiring of someone who makes an $8 an hour minimum wage and, at the end of two years, makes $10 an hour after learning more of the job and moving up.

When the minimum wage is $10 an hour, you lose all that because I’m going to bring someone in at $10 an hour. What incentive did you have to learn your job?"

He added:

The way we have tried to bring our employees together is to motivate them, since the fact is, they do need motivation. The way you motivate them is with wage and perks and things that you give them. You take all that away when the government forces people to increase the wages."

I asked what the perks were and he offered several examples. Beyond free food and free uniforms, he spoke of flexible schedules for people in school or with other commitments. He also seemed particularly prideful of the professional training that the company provides for the employees for whom McDonald's is their first job and that this training involves teaching employees how to cash their checks.

I think that’s something that’s really important and I believe that McDonald’s started all that. I believe that we had a large part to play in the American Dream for an awful lot of people. I have a lot of people who still call us for references for people who worked for us 10 or 12 years ago because they honor the fact that somebody came through a McDonald’s, learned the job, taught themselves the skills, and then moved onto something else."


http://news.yahoo.com/heres-owner-oldest-operating-mcdonalds-minimum-wage-172319373.html

[JustinTime]

Fat lot of good it would do them.

When I started working minimum wage was $3.85 a hour, whats it now, $7.35? That would have seemed like a dream to me 25 years ago, but raising it didn't eliminate poverty at all. The employers just raised prices and with all the debt devaluing the dollar people at entry level jobs have lost ground.

Raise it to $15 and it wont be very long at all before $15 an hour is "working poor".

[kylejack]

Fat lot of good it would do them.

When I started working minimum wage was $3.85 a hour, whats it now, $7.35? That would have seemed like a dream to me 25 years ago, but raising it didn't eliminate poverty at all. The employers just raised prices and with all the debt devaluing the dollar people at entry level jobs have lost ground.

Raise it to $15 and it wont be very long at all before $15 an hour is "working poor".
Put another way, the minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation.

[tod evans]

Fire ALL government employees and end ALL government freebees and poof, $7.35 is worth something.........

[HOLLYWOOD]

If we ever do manage to invent a human level of AI, guaranteed that the folks at the top will start feeling the pinch of obsolescence as well. .
http://johnkennethmuir.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/robby64b.jpg

[RickyJ]

They need new jobs if they want 15 bucks an hour, fast food places won't give that to them unless they are assistant managers or managers.

[RonPaulIsGreat]

It'll be awesome once those fast food robots go into mass production then you can get one for yourself!!! I'd pay 10K for a home combo meal maker. Just put in some potatoes, some hamburger, lettuce, cheese, go take a dump and when you get back new food. Awesome. Maybe the whole fast food industry will be killed off by these fast food robots. I can see factories installing them for their workers convenience. I used to have to spend like 10 minutes of my 1/2 hour lunch break driving to the wendy's or mcdonalds.

[kylejack]

They need new jobs if they want 15 bucks an hour, fast food places won't give that to them unless they are assistant managers or managers.
These same companies already pay $21/hr in some countries. So it is possible.

[juleswin]

These same companies already pay $21/hr in some countries. So it is possible.

Care to give examples? I would like to hear at about these countries where a burger flipper gets paid $21/hr. Not saying its impossible, I just want names so I can investigate it myself

[euphemia]

I wonder how many of those protesters actually work at McDonalds. Just curious.

[euphemia]

For that matter, how many of them actually work?

[Working Poor]

He was probably getting the same wage as the girl at the window who rang up my order on a cash register with pictures of food on the keys because of minimum wage laws.

I don't know if you understand that being the one on the front can be a very daunting task. Dealing with the public at a FF restaurant has to be the pits. I am a restaurant person and if I had to work in FF I would want to work in the back not the front because the public is terrible in a ff joint. You possibly have no idea how bad it is.

[mad cow]

I don't know if you understand that being the one on the front can be a very daunting task. Dealing with the public at a FF restaurant has to be the pits. I am a restaurant person and if I had to work in FF I would want to work in the back not the front because the public is terrible in a ff joint. You possibly have no idea how bad it is.

That may be true,I have never worked at a fast food restaurant.The point is that this kid,I called him a dude but he was obviously a teenager,was very,very good.
If his employer had $X/hr to pay for Y employees,and no more to still turn a profit,then this kid wasn't getting his due because his employer was forced to pay some of them more than they were possibly worth because of minimum wage laws.

Millions of Americans in 2014 make negative $X/hour and nobody bats an eye.
Students pay to learn how to be Barbers,Beauticians,Hair Braiders,Butchers,Bakers and Candlestick Makers,Geologists,Archeologists,Plumbers,Welders and on and on and on sometimes working long hours,for hundreds or thousands of hours,often paying their teachers more than the minimum wage per hour for the privilege.

I do agree that it is totally up to the owner of the business to decide which of his employees is worth what,even if it is for very stupid reasons.
In most cases,the free market will take care of that.

[kylejack]

Care to give examples? I would like to hear at about these countries where a burger flipper gets paid $21/hr. Not saying its impossible, I just want names so I can investigate it myself
Sure, McDonald's pays the equivalent of $21/hr in Denmark. http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/05/15/fight-for-15-try-21/

[willwash]

I agree. There's nothing wrong with employees asking for higher wages. Nothing wrong with organizing, or striking.

The problem comes when they want to get the government involved and use force.



The right way for her to make more than $8.25 an hour is to become so valuable to her employer that he decides it's better to pay her more to stay than to let her leave and replace her with someone new.

Precisely. They aren't asking for higher wages from their employers. They are lobbying the government to increase the minimum wage.

[kylejack]

Precisely. They aren't asking for higher wages from their employers. They are lobbying the government to increase the minimum wage.
No they aren't, they're striking against their employers.

Yes, a few have mentioned minimum wage, but this is primarily a strike against employers that pay poorly.

[John F Kennedy III]

No they aren't, they're striking against their employers.

Yes, a few have mentioned minimum wage, but this is primarily a strike against employers that pay poorly.

They could find a better paying job. Get a degree. Do something.

[mad cow]

Sure, McDonald's pays the equivalent of $21/hr in Denmark. http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/05/15/fight-for-15-try-21/


The most expensive Big Macs in the world come from Denmark, Switzerland, Norway and Iceland. A Big Mac in Denmark will cost you 27.75 Danish kroner ($5.08 US). The same sandwich costs 6.30 Swiss francs ($5.20) or 40 Norwegian kroner ($6.88). The most expensive Big Mac in the world can be purchased in Iceland. It’ll cost you a whopping 469 kronur ($7.61).
Conversely, the cheapest Big Macs in the world can be purchased in Hong Kong and China, where they can be purchased for 12 dollars ($1.54) and 11 Yuan ($1.45) respectively.


http://most-expensive.com/big-mac

Surely just a coincidence.

Edit:
The newest comment on that link is 256 weeks,or ~ five years ago.
I am quite sure that the price of a Big mac in Denmark has gone up since then.
That is if there are still any McDonalds in Denmark that haven't gone bankrupt.

[cindy25]

I sort of support them; not the mandatory minimum part but couldn't this be done thru incentive? pay $15/hour and then have max corp tax of 15%

it's not fair for their non-customers to subsidize the food and medical care of their employees

[Jackie Moon]

http://most-expensive.com/big-mac

Surely just a coincidence.

Edit:
The newest comment on that link is 256 weeks,or ~ five years ago.
I am quite sure that the price of a Big mac in Denmark has gone up since then.
That is if there are still any McDonalds in Denmark that haven't gone bankrupt.

This site compares the cost of living in Denmark and shows:


Combo Meal at McDonalds or Similar - $11.48

Overall the cost of living seems like it's pretty high. A lot of the items it lists are 50% to 100% more expensive than the US average:



Coke/Pepsi (0.33 liter bottle) (11.16 ounces) - $3.64

Eggs (12) - $4.05

Gasoline (1 gallon) - $7.95

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Denmark&displayCurrency=USD


Plus they have to pay high income taxes and a 25% VAT.


Cost of Living

Due to a strong trade union movement, wages in Denmark are generally higher than in the United States. Negotiated minimum wage is approximately $20/hour.

Income tax in Denmark, however, is high by international standards, and ranges from 45% to a high 56%.

The flat-rate VAT in Denmark is 25%. Major exemptions from VAT are rents, medicine and newspapers.

The cost of living in Denmark is considerably higher than in the United States. Copenhagen is among the five most expensive cities in the world.

http://denmark.usembassy.gov/living-in-denmark.html

[mad cow]

Coke/Pepsi (0.33 liter bottle) (11.16 ounces) - $3.64
That is over ten times what I pay at my local supermarket,tax included.

[John F Kennedy III]

$3.64 for less than a can of soda? I better get an orgasm with that. Sweet jumpin Jeebus.

[kylejack]

They could find a better paying job. Get a degree. Do something.
They are exercising their free speech.

[kylejack]

I'd gladly pay $11.48 for my combo meals if the employees got a decent living wage.

[COpatriot]

I would be very careful if I were these people. While you're out there bitching about the fact that nobody is going to pay you $15/hr to work a grease-fryer and repeatedly screw up orders, there's a whole flood of people sneaking into this country who will gladly work at that wage and do it better than you.

[tod evans]

I'd gladly pay $11.48 for my combo meals if the employees got a decent living wage.

Well that's doable...

Simply give tips to your favorite fast food employee just don't try to mandate that I tip them too...

[KingNothing]

"Salgado, who didn't finish high school, said she'll do whatever she has to to win the fight for a $15 minimum wage and a union,"

Graduating high school might, in fact, be a tremendous first step to increasing your wage, Salgado.

[KingNothing]

I'd gladly pay $11.48 for my combo meals if the employees got a decent living wage.

That's your prerogative, and I wouldn't have a problem with it either. Obviously you see that your prerogative is all this is, though, right?

[John F Kennedy III]

They are exercising their free speech.

What they are doing is fine when they aren't trying to use the gubmint to strongarm their employer. But with that big of a wage change you would see cuts in hours likely to where youd see a very similar paycheck anyway plus raised menu prices.

[John F Kennedy III]

I'd gladly pay $11.48 for my combo meals if the employees got a decent living wage.


There isn't any fastfood worth $11.48, especially McDonalds. I only eat there because I get it for free.

[euphemia]

They are exercising their free speech.

Let me tell you what happened when the garbage people in my town tried that. My town invested in new trash cans and new trucks. What used to be a six- or eight-man crew is now one guy. Trash gets picked up on time, no debris left on the street, and the can is right where it should be at the end of the day. Recycling bin is the same design, different color. One guy with a truck.

It's not free speech. It's demanding something for nothing. If someone wants more money, they should improve their skills and get better jobs. Or maybe get better skills to do the job they have and move up the ladder. McDonalds is opening new stores all the time. Learn English and math, develop some people skills and become a supervisor or manager.

[NewRightLibertarian]

I'd gladly pay $11.48 for my combo meals if the employees got a decent living wage.

You are in the minority, and subsidizing the idiocy of these assholes who are protesting with your poor decision-making.


It's not free speech. It's demanding something for nothing. If someone wants more money, they should improve their skills and get better jobs. Or maybe get better skills to do the job they have and move up the ladder. McDonalds is opening new stores all the time. Learn English and math, develop some people skills and become a supervisor or manager.

But that's not fair. The dregs should get paid $20 an hour even if they have no skills. After all, they have 6 kids at home on welfare and that's 'our' problem because some bureaucrat says so.

[euphemia]

I'd gladly pay $11.48 for my combo meals if the employees got a decent living wage.

Clearly you make much more than that. When workers demand that other workers spend an hour's worth of work (or more) for a hamburger, fries, and a drink, there is a decision to be made about how much someone's time is worth.

[TheTexan]

Raising minimum wage to $15/hr wouldn't be fair though to everyone making >= $15/hr.

Instead, what's a really great idea, is we should just give everyone a $5/hr raise. "Additional wage" instead of "minimum wage"!

It would be great for the economy.

[tod evans]

Raising minimum wage to $15/hr wouldn't be fair though to everyone making >= $15/hr.

Instead, what's a really great idea, is we should just give everyone a $5/hr raise. "Additional wage" instead of "minimum wage"!

It would be great for the economy.

I'd rather eliminate 7500 federal jobs and 10,000 federal pensions...

If that doesn't help the economy then do it again.

[parocks]

I'd rather eliminate 7500 federal jobs and 10,000 federal pensions...

If that doesn't help the economy then do it again.

Right.

The minimum wage is in place because the Fed Gov takes our money. We'd have the money to go to McD, but we don't, because the Fed Gov takes it.

The invisible hand works, but we don't live in a free market when the Fed Gov takes so much of our money.

[kylejack]

Let me tell you what happened when the garbage people in my town tried that. My town invested in new trash cans and new trucks. What used to be a six- or eight-man crew is now one guy. Trash gets picked up on time, no debris left on the street, and the can is right where it should be at the end of the day. Recycling bin is the same design, different color. One guy with a truck.

It's not free speech. It's demanding something for nothing. If someone wants more money, they should improve their skills and get better jobs. Or maybe get better skills to do the job they have and move up the ladder. McDonalds is opening new stores all the time. Learn English and math, develop some people skills and become a supervisor or manager.
Every person gets to decide whether they're willing to work for the wage offered. Nobody can make me work for a wage I don't agree to. To think otherwise is endorsing involuntary servitude.

Free speech is when they're marching with signs, etc.

[kylejack]

But that's not fair. The dregs should get paid $20 an hour even if they have no skills. After all, they have 6 kids at home on welfare and that's 'our' problem because some bureaucrat says so.
Oh, they do have some skills. That's why they're needed.

[Jackie Moon]

I would be very careful if I were these people. While you're out there bitching about the fact that nobody is going to pay you $15/hr to work a grease-fryer and repeatedly screw up orders, there's a whole flood of people sneaking into this country who will gladly work at that wage and do it better than you.

There are a lot of people born here also that would gladly work at McDonalds if they started paying $15 an hour.

Anyone that currently worked at a different fast food restaurant would try to switch to McDonalds.

McDonalds would be flooded with applications and would be able to choose only the best workers.

That means that a lot of the people who are currently working at McDonalds and protesting for $15 an hour would end up being fired and replaced by someone better.

[Natural Citizen]

Everyone shoud just stop eating the shit. It's not good for you anyway. What is it? Like 70% of the country is obese and trustees in modern pharmaceuticals that keep them upright and going back for more? That's a revolving circle. It's a crying shame that employment in a country like the US has to revolve around mcfuggindonalds. No wonder the rest of the free world is leaving us in the dust. It's pathetic.

[DamianTV]

This seems to me like we are trying to climb the escalator that is going down, and it just keeps going faster and faster. As wages and prices both go up up up, everyone on the escalator is getting pulled down down down. Fair to people that have never earned above $12 in their lives? They'll be all for it. How about those that are making $15 now? Is it saying they are no better than anyone else? You know they are all going to want a raise. Should those people all get raises?

This is one of the ways the middle class gets destroyed. Just because minimum wage goes up, it does not mean everyone else that earns above the new minimum wage also goes up. It might be great for the people at the bottom, but only at the beginning. Everyone else, its like getting a $7 an hour pay cut as those prices will very quickly be passed right back along to the consumer. Places that try to not raise their prices by very much will end up going under, unemployment will continue to get worse, MSM will continue to tell us "there are signs the economy is improving", and those at the bottom who do benefit will now have to contend with higher costs everwhere for everything, working fewer hours, and fewer other available jobs. No business likes cutting prices unless it increases sales, and this doesnt. No employee likes getting a pay cut. Take from the middle, stuff on the bottom and thats gonna fix everything by causing even more damage to the middle class.

[69360]

It just seems impossible that fast food employees could be so unintelligent that they believe they are skilled enough to deserve $15 an hour. So i have to believe that they are willingly looking for a handout for themselves and don't really care about anything else.

[DamianTV]

Intelligence isnt a prerequisite for getting paid jack shit.

Oh, dont forget about Govt Subsidies. Take an average McDonalds or Walmart worker right now. They dont work full time. Many qualify for food stamps or other govt handouts that supplement the their wages. Thats the Govt subsidizing the companies that pay minimum wage. Work em just a litttle bit, and we'll give em welfare. Welfare at everyone elses expense. The Welfare aspect throws off the entire Free Market potential of self correction. With Welfare, the Supply and Demand ratio remains unbalanced. People can afford the ever increasingly higher prices because of Govt subsidizing those companies with Welfare. It feeds into the Demand side of things where the demand remains the same, regardless of price charged. If these minimum wage companies were not subsidized by welfare, the demand for the products would go down, thus, either the supply must come down, or the prices of those goods would also have to come down. Some seasonal stuff does contribute here, but Welfare unbalances the self correction mechanism.

Other problems will stem from the first stage of the self correction. In a truly Free Market, the next stage of self correction would happen. At the supplier level, they have a surplus of goods. In order to move the surplus of goods to Walmart or other final sale positions, the prices must also come down. Once those prices come down, then over production will cease, which can cost jobs. There are lots of stages in between. In this world, products and goods are typically bought and resold many times, each incrementally increasing the cost of a product. Free Market helps by getting rid of this man in the middle, where the prices are incrementally increased by each middle man.

Most products and goods travel several thousand miles before being sold. Free Market supports and promotes local distribution. Walmart doesnt get its lettuce and corn from local farmers, they get so much of their shit from China it is unbelievable. China is booming because our demand is fed by their cheap supply. Free Market creates local demand which creates local jobs. Govt subsidization promotes and encourages exporting jobs while importing our products and goods. Made in America? That works if it is cost effective to buy American over Chinese.

The cost of fuel to transport the products and goods excessive distances should have also triggered the self correction mechanism. It should cost more to buy corn sold in California when it is grown in Argentina than if it was grown and sold in California. Had a Free Market been allowed to do what it does, the price of fuel would not have had nearly the impact that it did. However, due to Govt subsidization (Welfare, Foreign Tariffs, paying to NOT grow or produce), it became more cost effective to buy shit from China and India than homegrown. The result of transporting everything is that everything is now tied directly to the price of fuel. If the cost of fuel goes up by 3 times, the cost of all products and goods must also increase by how much fuel it takes to transport those products and goods half way around the world. When gas hits $10 bucks a gallon on average, the price of products and goods will also increase. Milk would now also be about $10 bucks per gallon. Same thing for Corn. Cereal. Fruits and Vegetables. Meat. Everything. Ever wonder why Fast Food prices just go up up up? Look at here they get what they need to make their products. McDonalds gets most of its meat (if one can really call it that) from New Zealand. And not bagging on New Zealand, but its just an example. If it becomes cheaper for McDonalds to buy cow meat from Australia or China, then the supply of meat for the US will come from Australia or China, but definitely NOT the US.

People are demanding higher wages because of a higher cost of living, that will continuously go up up up. A Free Market solution would require a LACK of Govt over-interference which would bring the prices back down. This results because the value of each dollar would increase. If we want to further the problem, then continue to demand MORE Welfare and MORE Govt Subsidies and an ever increasing price scale. If we want the problem to actually be solved, then the prices need to come down, which means the value of each individual dollar has to go up. But Govt insists on contributing to this problem by printing money and throwing at people who partcipate in the War Machine, which trickles back down in the form of more money which results in each individual dollar having less value. Think of Ron Paul's definition of Inflation. Inflation is an increase in the money supply. That is the source of the problem. The results of the initial problem of increasing the money in cirulation leads to the individual value of each dollar being lower, which results in higher costs of everything, which results in people crying out that they are not getting paid enough to live, and partly, they are correct. They are partly correct because of the individual value having gone down, but dont see the solution of lowering the costs, they see the solution as demanding an even further increase in the money supply. Oh shit, there is a gasoline fire! Lets put it out by pouring even more gasoline on it. Thats definitely where they get it wrong.

One things for sure, bullshit rolls downhill. It starts with the Fed. It feeds into Banks and the Stock Market. And it buries the people at the bottom who do not have the power to create wealth. When true Wealth comes from the products created or services provided, the wealth flows to the bottom, the creators and providers. But when Wealth is measured only in the volume of dollars, the Wealth is transferred to those with the ability to print money, the Fed and Banks. Everyone else is buried.

The theft of money can come in two forms. Theft of Quantity. I'll charge you three times as much as I used to for this burger. Easy to spot. The other is Theft of Value. It is why Fiat Currency destroys societies. I'll just photocopy this dollar a bunch of times to steal the Value, but leave you with the same Quantity. People think the Value of Money is a constant. Even today. It isnt. If people dont see any change in the Quantity of Money, they think nothing has been stolen from them, even if the Value has changed significantly. Stealing the Value also makes it very difficult for people to point the finger at someone. You took my thing that is unique. Theft of Quantity. If it could be traced, finding out who took such a unique thing would easily identify who the thief is. But stealing the Value makes it much much more difficult because it is distributed among everyone who has a dollar in their pocket.

So the real solution to this is to Lower the Cost by stopping the Printing Press of money and getting rid of Govt subsidization because it all rolls downhill and crushes those at the bottom under the weight of the Fiat Currency. I swear that seems to be their goal as it is total empowerment of the 0.1% at the top, the Money Manipulators.

[euphemia]

Oh, they do have some skills. That's why they're needed.

Then why are they still making minimum wage? McDonald's policy is for regular performance and wage reviews.

I've done that work before. It takes no skill at all. Learn the system and repeat the process over and over. The good people get raises and promotions.

[John F Kennedy III]

Oh, they do have some skills. That's why they're needed.

Yes but their skills and their job have to justify their wage. At best McDonalds managers should make $15/hr. Certainly not the barely any training necessary positions beneath them.

[PRB]

everybody already forgot, all back to work, business as usual. Nobody cares about these whiney fast food workers, if they wanna say "Costco pays more" they can go apply at Costco.

[John F Kennedy III]

Yep fast food places higher 2-3 times the employees needed and work them 10-25hrs a week. Makes the unemployment look significantly better than reality.

[PRB]

Yep fast food places higher 2-3 times the employees needed and work them 10-25hrs a week. Makes the unemployment look significantly better than reality.

a bit backwards think from Americans. they blame people who hire, rather than people who don't hire.

[John F Kennedy III]

a bit backwards think from Americans. they blame people who hire, rather than people who don't hire.

I'm pointing out a clear manipulation of unemployment numbers. If they cut their employees in half and doubled the hours for the those who remained then their employees would be able to support an apartment on their own.

How much higher would unemployment look if it wasn't done this way? It doesn't benefit the companies to have double employees and half the hours or less each. It benefits those that call themselves our government.

[kylejack]

Then why are they still making minimum wage? McDonald's policy is for regular performance and wage reviews.

I've done that work before. It takes no skill at all. Learn the system and repeat the process over and over. The good people get raises and promotions.
You can work for that wage, if you want to. Others get to decide if they're willing to work for that wage. They are striking because they want a better wage, as is their right.

[kylejack]

Yes but their skills and their job have to justify their wage. At best McDonalds managers should make $15/hr. Certainly not the barely any training necessary positions beneath them.
Well, in some countries they're making that much, more in fact, even just on the front lines.

[John F Kennedy III]

You can work for that wage, if you want to. Others get to decide if they're willing to work for that wage. They are striking because they want a better wage, as is their right.

That appears to be all you have to say on the subject.

[John F Kennedy III]

Well, in some countries they're making that much, more in fact, even just on the front lines.

You ignored that detailed post someone made last night that shredded your gibberish.

[kylejack]

That appears to be all you have to say on the subject.
Well, it is important to nail down these basics, because people are saying things like:


It's not free speech. It's demanding something for nothing. If someone wants more money, they should improve their skills and get better jobs. Or maybe get better skills to do the job they have and move up the ladder. McDonalds is opening new stores all the time. Learn English and math, develop some people skills and become a supervisor or manager.

Even if they are "demanding something for nothing", that is their free speech right to do so. I find it odd that this has to be explained in a forum with so many libertarian/voluntaryist-minded people.

[kylejack]

You ignored that detailed post someone made last night that shredded your gibberish.
Perhaps you could point it out? I didn't see one that shredded my so-called gibberish of defending the First Amendment, free assembly, freedom of association, and free speech.

[euphemia]

You can work for that wage, if you want to. Others get to decide if they're willing to work for that wage. They are striking because they want a better wage, as is their right.

Deciding whether I am willing to work for a given wage means I work for that employer or not. It doesn't mean I take to the streets to try to force the employer to pay higher wages.

[69360]

Well, in some countries they're making that much, more in fact, even just on the front lines.

So do you personally think flipping a burger or standing at a cash register is a skill that deserves $15 an hour?

Or is it that you think that everyone is entitled to $15 an hour and government should enforce that.

[RonPaulIsGreat]

I eat less at fast food already, it cost like 8.00 bucks for a wendy's combo meal. Ridiculous, that is like 5.00 on the cost of the raw materials. I went to dairy queen and ordered a large blizzard, it was almost 4.00 bucks and it was like a medium soft drink cup. That couldn't have cost more than a 1.00 in raw materials.

Anyway, it's good I guess in a way, my cheapness is overpowering my laziness.

I couldn't see paying 11 bucks for a mcdonald's combo meal which is below a wendy's combo meal that would to crazy. Mcdonalds raw materials are probably like like 2.50 if that.

Raise the cost if they wish, and pay them 15.00, I'll just go less. Mcdonalds always has the best mixed soda though, so I might bring my lunch and just buy a soda. :)

[juleswin]

Sure, McDonald's pays the equivalent of $21/hr in Denmark. http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/05/15/fight-for-15-try-21/

Yea, like some other posters have mentioned. It not really $21 in US terms. There is an economic theory called the purchasing power parity that explains this phenomena. So in essence, they maybe paid $21 /hr and then everything cost then double the price it would cost someone in the US making their real wage close to USD10:50 than USD21.


Purchasing power parity (PPP) is a component of some economic theories and is a technique used to determine the relative value of different currencies.

Theories that invoke purchasing power parity assume that in some circumstances (for example, as a long-run tendency) it would cost exactly the same number of, say, US dollars to buy euros and then to use the proceeds to buy a market basket of goods as it would cost to use those dollars directly in purchasing the market basket of goods.

The concept of purchasing power parity allows one to estimate what the exchange rate between two currencies would have to be in order for the exchange to be at par with the purchasing power of the two countries' currencies. Using that PPP rate for hypothetical currency conversions, a given amount of one currency thus has the same purchasing power whether used directly to purchase a market basket of goods or used to convert at the PPP rate to the other currency and then purchase the market basket using that currency. Observed deviations of the exchange rate from purchasing power parity are measured by deviations of the real exchange rate from its PPP value of 1.

PPP exchange rates help to minimize misleading international comparisons that can arise with the use of market exchange rates. For example, suppose that two countries produce the same physical amounts of goods as each other in each of two different years. Since market exchange rates fluctuate substantially, when the GDP of one country measured in its own currency is converted to the other country's currency using market exchange rates, one country might be inferred to have higher real GDP than the other country in one year but lower in the other; both of these inferences would fail to reflect the reality of their relative levels of production. But if one country's GDP is converted into the other country's currency using PPP exchange rates instead of observed market exchange rates, the false inference will not occur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

[jclay2]

I eat less at fast food already, it cost like 8.00 bucks for a wendy's combo meal. Ridiculous, that is like 5.00 on the cost of the raw materials. I went to dairy queen and ordered a large blizzard, it was almost 4.00 bucks and it was like a medium soft drink cup. That couldn't have cost more than a 1.00 in raw materials.

Anyway, it's good I guess in a way, my cheapness is overpowering my laziness.

I couldn't see paying 11 bucks for a mcdonald's combo meal which is below a wendy's combo meal that would to crazy. Mcdonalds raw materials are probably like like 2.50 if that.

Raise the cost if they wish, and pay them 15.00, I'll just go less. Mcdonalds always has the best mixed soda though, so I might bring my lunch and just buy a soda. :)

That is what the dollar menu is for bro. 2 McChickens + small fry + ice water = $3.20-$3.30.

[LibForestPaul]

• The big Fast Food chains will install automated kiosks for customers to order & pay themselves.
• Any employee still there will have hours cut so they are not full-time.
• A large chunk of mom and pop restaurants will be forced to close because they can no longer afford to stay in business.


Who actually wants this pay raise needs to be thought through carefully, no?

[kylejack]

Deciding whether I am willing to work for a given wage means I work for that employer or not. It doesn't mean I take to the streets to try to force the employer to pay higher wages.
What you choose to do is what you choose to do. What they are doing is their right as an American, exercising their free speech about what they consider poor pay. It's okay if you don't agree with their position. We don't all have to agree with each other on everything.

[kylejack]

So do you personally think flipping a burger or standing at a cash register is a skill that deserves $15 an hour?

Or is it that you think that everyone is entitled to $15 an hour and government should enforce that.
We aren't talking about the minimum wage, this is people protesting and striking against their employer for a better wage. I know some local independent fast food restaurants that are paying much better than minimum wage.

[69360]

We aren't talking about the minimum wage, this is people protesting and striking against their employer for a better wage. I know some local independent fast food restaurants that are paying much better than minimum wage.

But do YOU think flipping burgers and punching cash register keys requires skills that are worth $15 an hour?

Or do you just think everyone should get the $15 because they are entitled to it.

By your avoidance of the question, I'd guess the later.

[alucard13mm]

How come they don't strike for short term goals like adding 1 or 2 usd more per hour on what they make now? Right now, they argue for double. Unless they argue for a lot, but hoping to negotiate down.

[tangent4ronpaul]

When I saw the title I was thinking freshman 15 - esp considering the time of the year...

-t

[PRB]

I'm pointing out a clear manipulation of unemployment numbers. If they cut their employees in half and doubled the hours for the those who remained then their employees would be able to support an apartment on their own.

How much higher would unemployment look if it wasn't done this way? It doesn't benefit the companies to have double employees and half the hours or less each. It benefits those that call themselves our government.

Luckily only politicians care about unemployment numbers. Voters don't, employers don't, and employees, rich or poor, don't know, don't care.

It slightly benefits having more employees working half the time each, because each person is less overworked, and/or possible evade required benefits costs, bathroom breaks...etc.

[PRB]

How come they don't strike for short term goals like adding 1 or 2 usd more per hour on what they make now? Right now, they argue for double. Unless they argue for a lot, but hoping to negotiate down.

Some do, but that has more to do with raising minimum wage across the board for all jobs. In this case, fast food workers themselves believe they deserve $15 for their work. Yes, it's possible they argue for more and prepare to settle for a bit less.

I don't want fast food workers better paid than they are now, but I can somewhat imagine that fast food workers, and restaurant workers that supposedly depend on tips to survive, ought to blame their high pay to begin with. Isn't it likely they are given so much time pressure and stress because they can't have the help of 1-2 more people at the same time if each were paid $3-5 per hour? Isn't that $4-8 extra an hour the burden on them to produce what would take 2 people without the time pressure to do?

[PRB]

But do YOU think flipping burgers and punching cash register keys requires skills that are worth $15 an hour?


Per se? Nothing. But there's a difference between flipping burgers and flipping burgers under pressure of time.

It's possible they were intended to be $5 per hour jobs, but because minimum wage forced them to be paid $8 per hour, the employer now lost employees (and employees lost help) due to having to pay 30% more per hour. So what would normally be easy, effortless, low stress, now is high stress, high obligation.



Or do you just think everyone should get the $15 because they are entitled to it.

By your avoidance of the question, I'd guess the later.

I know the liberal answer to it "I need $15 an hour to survive, I don't care if you can't afford it! I'd rather have no job at all if you can't give me $15 an hour!!!!"

[PRB]

There are a lot of people born here also that would gladly work at McDonalds if they started paying $15 an hour.


Maybe, but there's people here that'll also do it for $5 if it were legal.



Anyone that currently worked at a different fast food restaurant would try to switch to McDonalds.


That explains why everybody went and applied at Costco, and none were hired.



McDonalds would be flooded with applications and would be able to choose only the best workers.


Yeah, so the people demanding $15 would've just fucked themselves out of the job they had.



That means that a lot of the people who are currently working at McDonalds and protesting for $15 an hour would end up being fired and replaced by someone better.

yeah, exactly, sorry I didn't read it when I wrote the line above :)

[PRB]

Everyone shoud just stop eating the shit. It's not good for you anyway. What is it? Like 70% of the country is obese and trustees in modern pharmaceuticals that keep them upright and going back for more? That's a revolving circle. It's a crying shame that employment in a country like the US has to revolve around mcfuggindonalds. No wonder the rest of the free world is leaving us in the dust. It's pathetic.

it's not optimal, but it sure beats starving or canned foods.

obesity isn't healthy, but it sure as hell beats anorexia or starving dead.

[PRB]

It just seems impossible that fast food employees could be so unintelligent that they believe they are skilled enough to deserve $15 an hour. So i have to believe that they are willingly looking for a handout for themselves and don't really care about anything else.

it has more to do with ignorance and selfishness. they think if they need it ,they can demand it. they think if they need it, nobody else will replace them. yes, it's most likely they don't care about other people, which is just what you expect from poor liberals who have no perspective on reality.

Well, I take that back, liberals are aware that natural resources are limited, conservatives are aware money is limited.

[euphemia]

Running a register might be worth $15 an hour if the person running the register can actually do math and turn in an accurate count at the end of the shift. McDonald's assigns a drawer for the shift and the managers count at the end. Where I work, we are assigned house banks and we have to turn in accurate receipts as well as keep the bank at the assigned amount. We are personally responsible for the bank and the key to the little vault.

[DamianTV]

You know all those Middle Class jobs that dried up? Think about where those people went to work, if they could find jobs. McDonalds and Walmarx.

Assuming that people that work in fast food are ignorant teenagers is a stereotype. There is more competition for the jobs at the bottom because they are what is left. The result is you have "normal" people working in shit jobs and trying to hold families together because their previous jobs went overseas and havent come back. Anyone that is dumb enough to believe Inflation is at 2% is drinking their specially flavored brand of Kool-Aid. Our economy has just passed the edge of the hyper-inflation cliff, but only just. Inflation is starting to pick up speed. Personally I'd estimate that Inflation is somewere around 9%-12% annually. Minimum wage has not been increased in some time. So the consequences of Inflation are cumulative. Im not trying to advocate for an increase in minimum wage, but due to Govt Subsidization (Welfare), this is what happens without a Free Market. The mega corporations will exploit the people at the bottom for everything they are worth. A Free Market would self correct and people would walk away from these jobs, but lets face it, Inflation is not at 2% per year, $7 is not a livable wage, and corporations will not pay people what they need because Govt has its hands in every single Free Market self correction mechanism. People have become completely disposable. And not just the stereotyped pimply faced irresponsible teenager, but the ones who work for Minimum Wage because there is nothing else out there.

An increase in Minimum Wage is a Band Aid Solution for the problems that result from not having a Free Market. A Free Market would drive prices of goods and services down and / or wages up to livable standards, and it would take from the mouths of the parasitic ruling class who have far more than they need already. Increasing Minimum Wage is going to have its own set of severe consequences, but not increasing Minimum Wage is going to have a totally different set of severe consequences.

Exchanging one set of nasty consequences for another is not a viable long term solution.

Now, the question was asked, and quoting "Or do you just think everyone should get the $15 because they are entitled to it". I'll go ahead an answer that, partly with another question. Does a victim of theft deserve just compensation? I abolutely believe they deserve just compensation. In this case, the compensation that is being demanded is to increase Minimum Wage to $15 per hour. I do not believe that is "just compensation". I also do not believe Govt should be the one to enforce this as they are the ones that were committing the theft to begin with. One has to understand that the theft that occured is the Value, the Purchasing Power of the money. The compensation that is being demanded is an increase of Quantity of money, which does not restore is Value. Demanding an increase in Quantity can only result in an escalation of this problem. Entitlements escalate the problem. Inflation escalates the problem. Lack of Free Market escalates the problem. We need to stop escalating the problem and focus on how to fix the problem itself.

To fix, I mean really fix this problem, we need to go to the heart of the problem, not one of many cascading consequences. The decrease in the Value of the money is only a consequence, but is not the source of the problem. The real problem is the Fiat Currency which transfers wealth from those who are depenant on that Fiat Currency to those that print and create the Fiat Currency.

Does anyone, other than ZippyJuan, disagree with any of this?

[69360]

Want $15 an hour minimum wage?

Fine you got it but the limits for snap, tanf and medicare get raised to compensate, see how that works for them.

These people looking for $15 an hour for unskilled jobs think they are going to be able to double dip and it's just not possible in this economy.

[DamianTV]

This article is pretty well related. What happens when we just replace the $15 per hour employee with a Robot?

What Happens When It’s Easier To Pay No Wages Rather Than A Minimum
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-07/what-happens-when-it%E2%80%99s-easier-pay-no-wages-rather-minimum

[kylejack]

But do YOU think flipping burgers and punching cash register keys requires skills that are worth $15 an hour?

Or do you just think everyone should get the $15 because they are entitled to it.

By your avoidance of the question, I'd guess the later.
I think it's worth more than the trivial wages being paid by the large fast food companies, yes. Maybe not $15, perhaps $12.

[tod evans]

I think it's worth more than the trivial wages being paid by the large fast food companies, yes. Maybe not $15, perhaps $12.

Once again; Jump on it dude!

Those folks will be genuinely grateful for all the tips you want to give them..

But you'd best stay the fuck out of my hip pocket!

[kylejack]

Once again; Jump on it dude!

Those folks will be genuinely grateful for all the tips you want to give them..

But you'd best stay the fuck out of my hip pocket!
I'm not anywhere near your pocket, man. I've been defending their free speech rights, which a few here don't seem to think they should be entitled to.

[tod evans]

I'm not anywhere near your pocket, man. I've been defending their free speech rights, which a few here don't seem to think they should be entitled to.

Are you okay with the companies they're protesting against firing them for sullying the company name?

I am.

I'm also okay with them protesting..

[kylejack]

Are you okay with the companies they're protesting against firing them for sullying the company name?

I am.

I'm also okay with them protesting..
Of course. That's how strikes work in non-unionized work forces. They're free to do so.

[PRB]

Want $15 an hour minimum wage?

Fine you got it but the limits for snap, tanf and medicare get raised to compensate, see how that works for them.

These people looking for $15 an hour for unskilled jobs think they are going to be able to double dip and it's just not possible in this economy.

No deal, you have to limit (or eliminate) SNAP, TANF and medicare FIRST, then we can talk about cutting wages!

Liberals and gubmint have fooled us too long, we need to see the cut and savings before spending.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Liberals...have fooled us too long,

You sure have. Especially with your user accounts PRB, TheCount, and Josh_LA!

[PRB]

Are you okay with the companies they're protesting against firing them for sullying the company name?

I am.

I'm also okay with them protesting..

I'm always OK with people being fired as long as there's no agreement that prohibits them, which is just what unions do.

[PRB]

You sure have. Especially with your user accounts PRB, TheCount, and Josh_LA!

I only have one account on this site, ever.

[PRB]

This article is pretty well related. What happens when we just replace the $15 per hour employee with a Robot?

What Happens When It’s Easier To Pay No Wages Rather Than A Minimum
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-07/what-happens-when-it%E2%80%99s-easier-pay-no-wages-rather-minimum

I'll tell you what WON'T happen : nobody will be complaining on behalf of the robots that they're being overworked, underpaid.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I only have one account on this site, ever.


So where did you get your other user name "The Count?" Do you like Dracula movies or were you just counting the number of user names you have created on this site?

[PRB]

You know all those Middle Class jobs that dried up? Think about where those people went to work, if they could find jobs. McDonalds and Walmarx.

Assuming that people that work in fast food are ignorant teenagers is a stereotype.


Teenagers? No, but ignorant and demanding? Yes. And anybody can do that, even if they are not ignorant, anybody can be selfishly demanding.

McD's and WalMart are not the only jobs, they're just jobs that are likely available in every city. Among other chains.

What were those middle class jobs dried up? Real estate? Manufacturing? Management? Data entry?



There is more competition for the jobs at the bottom because they are what is left. The result is you have "normal" people working in shit jobs and trying to hold families together because their previous jobs went overseas and havent come back.


Yes, it's possible that people working fast food jobs may have been yesterday's $20/hr people. But so what? Their jobs were shipped or replaced by machines which they should've begged for back, now they're going to join yesterday's $10 per hour people to fight to keep these jobs, before they're gone too.



Anyone that is dumb enough to believe Inflation is at 2% is drinking their specially flavored brand of Kool-Aid. Our economy has just passed the edge of the hyper-inflation cliff, but only just.


While I agree cost of living and inflation are not as simple as 2%, I don't care for your hyperinflation fearmongering. that shit has been said so many million times that nobody needs to take them seriously.



Inflation is starting to pick up speed. Personally I'd estimate that Inflation is somewere around 9%-12% annually. Minimum wage has not been increased in some time.


I'd almost want to agree, 10% inflation when high, 2% inflation when low, select markets such as gasoline and electronics have deflation, housing bubble just popped. Tuition and healthcare bubbles might be next. So while I don't think it's 10% a year consistently, I'd agree it's not 2% a year either.

Minimum wage hasn't increased, and it shouldn't. The government shouldn't force anybody to be paid anything when it has no idea how much work is involved.



So the consequences of Inflation are cumulative. Im not trying to advocate for an increase in minimum wage, but due to Govt Subsidization (Welfare), this is what happens without a Free Market.


Well thank God! I was for a moment afraid I found another resident liberal commie.



The mega corporations will exploit the people at the bottom for everything they are worth.


You could do without the classism, any employer can and should exploit any person he can find, not just the rich corporations.



A Free Market would self correct and people would walk away from these jobs, but lets face it, Inflation is not at 2% per year, $7 is not a livable wage, and corporations will not pay people what they need because Govt has its hands in every single Free Market self correction mechanism.


The only thing the government is doing that's preventing people from taking shit jobs is paying people to not work, which still runs out after time. It's been recently debated that unemployment should be extended, I actually don't remember what happened, I just know I was never one of those people. How is the government keeping people from quitting? I have no idea!

$7 IS a livable wage, unless you have a different definition of living than I do.



People have become completely disposable. And not just the stereotyped pimply faced irresponsible teenager, but the ones who work for Minimum Wage because there is nothing else out there.


How exactly is free market going to fix this ? Or how exactly is the government forcing anybody to take these shit jobs? Nobody is preventing them from quitting.



An increase in Minimum Wage is a Band Aid Solution for the problems that result from not having a Free Market. A Free Market would drive prices of goods and services down and / or wages up to livable standards, and it would take from the mouths of the parasitic ruling class who have far more than they need already. Increasing Minimum Wage is going to have its own set of severe consequences, but not increasing Minimum Wage is going to have a totally different set of severe consequences.


When in doubt, I err on less government and less spending. So I have no reason to think MW increase would help people who are NOT the workers, and since I am not the workers, I do not want anybody to be paid more.



Exchanging one set of nasty consequences for another is not a viable long term solution.


Agreed.

[PRB]

So where did you get your other user name "The Count?" Do you like Dracula movies or were you just counting the number of user names you have created on this site?

it's not mine.

[PRB]

Now, the question was asked, and quoting "Or do you just think everyone should get the $15 because they are entitled to it". I'll go ahead an answer that, partly with another question. Does a victim of theft deserve just compensation?


Morally yes. But I don't believe minimum workers are victims of theft.



I abolutely believe they deserve just compensation. In this case, the compensation that is being demanded is to increase Minimum Wage to $15 per hour. I do not believe that is "just compensation". I also do not believe Govt should be the one to enforce this as they are the ones that were committing the theft to begin with. One has to understand that the theft that occured is the Value, the Purchasing Power of the money. The compensation that is being demanded is an increase of Quantity of money, which does not restore is Value. Demanding an increase in Quantity can only result in an escalation of this problem. Entitlements escalate the problem. Inflation escalates the problem. Lack of Free Market escalates the problem. We need to stop escalating the problem and focus on how to fix the problem itself.

To fix, I mean really fix this problem, we need to go to the heart of the problem, not one of many cascading consequences. The decrease in the Value of the money is only a consequence, but is not the source of the problem. The real problem is the Fiat Currency which transfers wealth from those who are depenant on that Fiat Currency to those that print and create the Fiat Currency.

Does anyone, other than ZippyJuan, disagree with any of this?

you had me until you said fiat currency. Why can't we just agree that the government should not regulate wages and let more people compete over shit jobs?

Why can't we just agree nobody is forcing anybody to take shit pay jobs nor is anybody threatened by force or deprivation of property to keep said jobs?

How exactly is a free market going to either hire more people or keep more jobs in the country or pay people more?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

it's not mine.


Yes, "TheCount" is also you, PRB. You post here under multiple accounts. You don't even bother to disguise it any more. You're just basically a lazy troll who thought nobody would catch on.

By the way, did you notice that The Counts green bars went from 4 bars to 3 bars? Looks like your alter ego account got neg repped.

[PRB]

Yes, "TheCount" is also you, PRB. You post here under multiple accounts. You don't even bother to disguise it any more. You're just basically a lazy troll who thought nobody would catch on.

you have no proof of that, but keep accusing.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

you have no proof of that, but keep accusing.


Your writing styles are the same. You speak on the same topics. You both try to disguise yourselves as something other than libs, but it's obvious you're both libs. "The Count" even responded to me the same way you did when you and I had the same conversation about trolling.

[PRB]

Your writing styles are the same. You speak on the same topics. You both try to disguise yourselves as something other than libs, but it's obvious you're both libs. "The Count" even responded to me the same way you did when you and I had the same conversation about trolling.

what would you have said if somebody accused you?

I am not aware of how he responded, but feel free to post it here.

[UWDude]

It just seems impossible that fast food employees could be so unintelligent that they believe they are skilled enough to deserve $15 an hour. So i have to believe that they are willingly looking for a handout for themselves and don't really care about anything else.

That is the fundamentals of a free market. Always look out for number one and number one only. That is how the free market works its magic. So you can't fault them for trying.


anybody can be selfishly demanding.

For the free market to work, they are supposed to be. remember? Adam Smith, every man working for his own gain, all that jazz?


you had me until you said fiat currency. Why can't we just agree that the government should not regulate wages and let more people compete over shit jobs?

A free market should not regulate immigration either. Let the free market take care of it. People trying to use the force of government to keep out Latin Americans are communists trying to artificially raise wages with central planning. Competition for shit jobs? Stop making existing in a the labor market of your choice a crime, amirite, RPF?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

what would you have said if somebody accused you?



I would at least take note, change my posting style, and manage my fake accounts a little better. Your user account called "TheCount" just lost a green bar. Seriously dude, you're just lazy. It's no wonder you liberals want government to do everything for you.

[PRB]

I would at least take note, change my posting style, and manage my fake accounts a little better.


But that assumes you HAVE other fake accounts, you don't (or I haven't noticed) and I don't. So what would a person who only has one account, when accused of having multiple do? Surely you'd know!

I didn't ignore any of your accusations, I denied them as soon as I see them. I don't know if I can change my posting style, I certainly wouldn't just to please you.



Your user account called "TheCount" just lost a green bar. Seriously dude, you're just lazy. It's no wonder you liberals want government to do everything for you.

you can accuse me of being lazy, but save what you want to say about thecount for him, PM him even, it has nothing to do with me.

[PRB]

For the free market to work, they are supposed to be. remember? Adam Smith, every man working for his own gain, all that jazz?

if you ignore game theory and tragedy of commons, yeah.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

But that assumes you HAVE other fake accounts, you don't (or I haven't noticed) and I don't. So what would a person who only has one account, when accused of having multiple do? Surely you'd know!

I didn't ignore any of your accusations, I denied them as soon as I see them. I don't know if I can change my posting style, I certainly wouldn't just to please you.



you can accuse me of being lazy, but save what you want to say about thecount for him, PM him even, it has nothing to do with me.


Dude, cut the crap. You've been posting here since 2007. You either really, really dislike libertarians, or you're with some half-assed organization and you get paid to do this. Looks to me like the latter.

I'd say they're wasting their money for two reasons:

1. Your trolling is horrible.

2. The idea that they are influencing opinions is foolhardy.


I'm guessing number two is not going to change, so let's focus on number one. You probably don't want to put to much effort into all this because it's fairly apparent that you're lazy. I will post some of your crap, but I am not going to work for the pittance they pay you. Go back to your boss. Tell them I will work for them. Salary is negotiable.

[UWDude]

if you ignore game theory and tragedy of commons, yeah.

Wait a minute, are you saying that the free market doesn't automatically correct all economic ills? That every man for himself has downsides?
Is that a hammer in your left and a sickle in your right?

[PRB]

Dude, cut the crap. You've been posting here since 2007. You either really, really dislike libertarians, or you're with some half-assed organization and you get paid to do this. Looks to me like the latter.

I'd say they're wasting their money for two reasons:

1. Your trolling is horrible.

2. The idea that they are influencing opinions is foolhardy.


I'm guessing number two is not going to change, so let's focus on number one. You probably don't want to put to much effort into all this because it's fairly apparent that you're lazy. I will post some of your crap, but I am not going to work for the pittance they pay you. Go back to your boss. Tell them I will work for them. Salary is negotiable.

I'd agree with you my trolling is horrible, so why do you insist I am paid by somebody? Who do you think is stupid enough to pay for my troll quality?

I don't really really dislike libertarians, I just don't mind laughing at some.

[PRB]

Wait a minute, are you saying that the free market doesn't automatically correct all economic ills? That every man for himself has downsides?
Is that a hammer in your left and a sickle in your right?

Free market allows the maximum opportunity to correct economic ills, but not automatic or guaranteed.

Every man for himself has consequences, whether it's upside or downside is subjective.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

PM him even, it has nothing to do with me.

No, I am not going to PM, notify the moderators, or any other diversion that you or your other user name might suggest. We'll leave it right here in the open to expose both your PRB and TheCount user names.

[PRB]

No, I am not going to PM, notify the moderators, or any other diversion that you or your other user name might suggest. We'll leave it right here in the open to expose both your PRB and TheCount user names.

have it your way :) doesn't hurt me.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I'd agree with you my trolling is horrible, so why do you insist I am paid by somebody? Who do you think is stupid enough to pay for my troll quality?


Because that is the nature of today's work. People pay crap and don't care about their final product.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Free market allows the maximum opportunity to correct economic ills, but not automatic or guaranteed.

Every man for himself has consequences, whether it's upside or downside is subjective.

Nothing is guaranteed or automatic. You liberals like to think that government addresses this, but government intervention has consequences of its own.

[PRB]

Nothing is guaranteed or automatic. You liberals like to think that government addresses this, but government intervention has consequences of its own.

I am not a liberal, but I doubt any liberal thinks government intervention DOESN'T have consequences.

[PRB]

Because that is the nature of today's work. People pay crap and don't care about their final product.

Ok, let's say they don't care about the product and results, what would you think is the "goal"? to get some Democrat elected? to get a law passed? Or some long term subtle strategy to get people out of the already irrelevant and harmless "liberty movement"?

Or, even forget the liberty movement, what has this forum achieved that you think liberals (or anybody) would bother paying another person to troll, disrupt or achieve in counter?

I don't even think this site has enough readers to make good advertising investment (but that's just my opinion, I don't know the numbers).

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I am not a liberal...

You're not only a liberal, but you're an extreme liberal.

[John F Kennedy III]

Dude, cut the crap. You've been posting here since 2007. You either really, really dislike libertarians, or you're with some half-assed organization and you get paid to do this. Looks to me like the latter.

I'd say they're wasting their money for two reasons:

1. Your trolling is horrible.

2. The idea that they are influencing opinions is foolhardy.


I'm guessing number two is not going to change, so let's focus on number one. You probably don't want to put to much effort into all this because it's fairly apparent that you're lazy. I will post some of your crap, but I am not going to work for the pittance they pay you. Go back to your boss. Tell them I will work for them. Salary is negotiable.

Don't shake their hand til they give you the same pay Zippy gets.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Or, even forget the liberty movement, what has this forum achieved that you think liberals (or anybody) would bother paying another person to troll, disrupt or achieve in counter?


You tell me. You're the troll. People waste money on all kinds of things. If it's not your money, then you tend to be more wasteful. Look at the government. They waste money on all kinds of nonsense. Some of the most idiotic attempts to influence public opinion have been exposed. Other organizations do things just as ridiculous.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Don't shake their hand til they give you the same pay Zippy gets.


I once asked both PRB and Zip how many times each + repped the other. Both of them declined to answer.

[PRB]

You tell me. You're the troll. People waste money on all kinds of things. If it's not your money, then you tend to be more wasteful. Look at the government. They waste money on all kinds of nonsense. Some of the most idiotic attempts to influence public opinion have been exposed. Other organizations do things just as ridiculous.

I told you my goal, you think my goal is worth paying for?

[PRB]

I once asked both PRB and Zip how many times each + repped the other. Both of them declined to answer.

Ask theCount, I bet he'll tell you.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Here's a good example of a troll post:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?459340-Regarding-the-2nd-Amendment&


This guy is full of crap because there is not one reference to hand grenades in the comments section. It took me about 20 seconds to check. He made it up.

His whole first post is so ridiculous that it looks like he took it straight off the troll template. This knucklehead--if it's not PRB--won't even come back. If he does, he'll claim he confused the grenade comment with another article.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Ask theCount, I bet he'll tell you.

Why would you bet that?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I told you my goal, you think my goal is worth paying for?

You're obviously lying on this forum. You really exposed yourself in our gun conversation. You confirmed that you own at least four guns, but even declined to name the brands. Your silly answers to my gun questions pretty much demonstrated that you probably never even held a gun (let alone fire one or own one).

[PRB]

You're obviously lying on this forum. You really exposed yourself in our gun conversation. You confirmed that you own at least four guns, but even declined to name the brands. Your silly answers to my gun questions pretty much demonstrated that you probably never even held a gun (let alone fire one or own one).

so me declining to talk about what guns I own means I'm a liar?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

so me declining to talk about what guns I own means I'm a liar?


If you claim you own at least four guns and then post the most know nothing, ridiculous answers to the most basic questions, then yeah, you're making it up.

[PRB]

Here's a good example of a troll post:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?459340-Regarding-the-2nd-Amendment&


This guy is full of crap because there is not one reference to hand grenades in the comments section. It took me about 20 seconds to check. He made it up.

His whole first post is so ridiculous that it looks like he took it straight off the troll template. This knucklehead--if it's not PRB--won't even come back. If he does, he'll claim he confused the grenade comment with another article.

you're right, I looked and I indeed don't see any comment talking about hand grenade. I was even willing to consider, maybe he just forgot the name of the weapon, but I couldn't find the word "rare" on the page. So I don't know what he's talking about, at least not from the comments he supposedly read.

[PRB]

If you claim you own at least four guns and then post the most know nothing, ridiculous answers to the most basic questions, then yeah, you're making it up.

so give me your name, address, social security, and facebook password, otherwise I know you don't have one.

[PRB]

Why would you bet that?

because he's not me???

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

you're right, I looked and I indeed don't see any comment talking about hand grenade. I was even willing to consider, maybe he just forgot the name of the weapon, but I couldn't find the word "rare" on the page. So I don't know what he's talking about, at least not from the comments he supposedly read.


You don't even have to read the comments. Just look at the typical trolling template he used in his post. Sort of looks like your handiwork. Wouldn't be surprised.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

because he's not me???

Why would you bet that TheCount would tell me as opposed to not telling me? Why is your inclination so strong that you would bet on it?

I would not bet on it. What do you know that I don't know?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

so give me your name, address, social security, and facebook password, otherwise I know you don't have one.

Well, that is an excellent comparison because SS numbers and passwords are the exact same thing as sharing the brand of gun you own. :rolleyes:

[PRB]

Well, that is an excellent comparison because SS numbers and passwords are the exact same thing as sharing the brand of gun you own. :rolleyes:

for purposes of not revealing private information? yes.

I don't talk about my guns just like I don't talk about my cars.

[PRB]

Why would you bet that TheCount would tell me as opposed to not telling me? Why is your inclination so strong that you would bet on it?

I would not bet on it. What do you know that I don't know?

it's not strong

[PRB]

You don't even have to read the comments. Just look at the typical trolling template he used in his post. Sort of looks like your handiwork. Wouldn't be surprised.

it does look like trolling template, but even a template trolls better than me. I can't take credit for that one.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

it's not strong


It's strong enough for you to bet on it. Why would you bet on it? Based on what?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

for purposes of not revealing private information? yes.

I don't talk about my guns just like I don't talk about my cars.


Right, because someone saying he drives a Toyota is as private as an SS number or a password.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

///

[DamianTV]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lku7qdgu0F1qjswkso1_250.gif

[euphemia]

I'm not anywhere near your pocket, man. I've been defending their free speech rights, which a few here don't seem to think they should be entitled to.

Again, it is not an exercise in free speech. It is an attempt to force an employer to pay more money. Don't like the money? Quit and go somewhere else.

[kylejack]

Again, it is not an exercise in free speech. It is an attempt to force an employer to pay more money. Don't like the money? Quit and go somewhere else.
I don't think you understand what force is. Refusing to work for someone is NOT force.

[DamianTV]

Ya know, instead of arguing about who is wrong about what, why dont we apply the Scientific Method, identify the problem, then propose real solutions?

I'll just throw some questions out there so feel free to shoot them down.

Instead of increasing Minimum Wage, could another possible solution be to bring prices on everything down?

If we increase Minimum Wage, would the value of money collected in taxes by States and Local Govt go up or down?

If Minimum Wage does increase, does that screw anyone who is currently getting paid above the current rate?

Do Employees have a Right to try to get paid more than they currently do?

Will the costs of raising the Minimum Wage be passed directly back to the consumer, or will those costs be subsidized by Govt through Welfare and other programs?

If an Employee is given a 2% raise per year, but Inflation is higher, does that qualify as Theft? If so, who benefits? If not, why does it not qualify as Theft?

Would replacing all Employees with Robots solve our problems, or create new problems?

Would a Libertarian and a Socialist add up 2 + 2 and come up with different numbers? How?

Is Economics a Science or Pseudo-Science?

To whom is the National Debt owed to?

Is the Federal Reserve a part of the US Govt, or is it a Private Bank?

What exactly is Inflation?

Why did we have the Revolutionary War?

Why is a Greenback considered as having zero value, even in its day?

Would a Gold Standard fix any of this?

Would eliminating Fractional Reserve Requirements for Banks to make Loans fix any of this?

Would stopping the endless Wars that cost so much fix any of this?

Where does the value of our currency come from?

Would this thread be more productive if we werent making personalized "your wrong and Im right" statements?

[euphemia]

I don't think you understand what force is. Refusing to work for someone is NOT force.

Striking is not refusing to work for someone. It is taking work time to demonstrate that the employer is doing something you don't like and force them to change.

[kylejack]

Striking is not refusing to work for someone. It is taking work time to demonstrate that the employer is doing something you don't like and force them to change.
It's not work time. Strikers are not typically paid during the strike, especially non-unionized strikers like these. So no, it isn't "work time." I have a right to stop working for my employer any time I please if I'm not under a contract, even "during work time." They have a right to fire me.

[RonPaulIsGreat]

15 or spit!
15 or spit!
We don't give a shit.
15 or spit!

Fries with a side of pubes, it's your choice, we won't lose.

15 or spit!

[GunnyFreedom]

Striking is not refusing to work for someone. It is taking work time to demonstrate that the employer is doing something you don't like and force them to change.

Now I'm no liberal by any stretch of the imagination, and I believe that legally raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour is a bad idea* for a whole bunch of reasons, most of which will harm those who want it most...but describing a strike as 'force' does not sit well with me. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. The employers do not own the employees. The employees can quit any time they want, the employers can (almost) lay them off any time they want. The employers can raise the wages, or not as they see fit. If their current employees walk away, they can hire new employees.

A strike may well be a kind of discussion or argument, but until one of the sides draws a gun and demands compliance with whatever, then there is not 'force' being applied. The way the above statement was worded in a way that looked like the employees were violating the Non Aggression Principle. Until THEY are using actual FORCE to prevent non-striking workers from entering the property, then they are not using force.

-

*bad idea: Just because raising the minimum wage legally will cause more harm than good does not mean that I do not recognize the plight of the minimum wage worker, I do, but I think there are different strategies that will do a lot more good than doubling the minimum wage, which will harm the economy and lead to more automation and more unemployment.

[PRB]

which will harm the economy and lead to more automation and more unemployment.

more automation and more unemployment is not harm on the economy.

[juleswin]

more automation and more unemployment is not harm on the economy.

Not if it was forced onto the economy by increased regulation.

[DamianTV]

@Gunny - So is a Strike a method or tool of self correction, or is it a form of violence?

@PRB - '... more unemployment is not harm on the economy'? How does that work? And which are you referring to, unemployment meaning unemployment benefits or unemployment meaning increase in people that do not have jobs and collect no benefits? Just lookin for clarification...

[PRB]

Not if it was forced onto the economy by increased regulation.

how do you force automation? automation requires that there's actually the technology capable of doing it, AND that it's cheaper. who has a problem using slaves if robots are not available?

[PRB]

@Gunny - So is a Strike a method or tool of self correction, or is it a form of violence?

@PRB - '... more unemployment is not harm on the economy'? How does that work? And which are you referring to, unemployment meaning unemployment benefits or unemployment meaning increase in people that do not have jobs and collect no benefits? Just lookin for clarification...

by unemployment I meant people not being employed, nothing to do with collecting government assistance.

[DamianTV]

by unemployment I meant people not being employed, nothing to do with collecting government assistance.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Now I can mildly dispute a bit better. The Govt and the Economy may not be harmed directly, but will be indirectly. The people that are ousted from the workforce dont have any money to spend on the local businesses that normally survive on their income. One person wont be enough to take down a small business, but the effect is cumulative when more and more people have no money to spend. That small business folds, which will also become cumulative on the larger businesses. Of course, the larger businesses can just as easily move overseas. Moving is a luxury that big businesses have that is beyond the reach of mom and pop shops.

One might argue that a single jobless individual wont have any effect on the economy at all because the money still exists. It also depends on ones definition of money and how it is used. Average Joe will use it to pay for goods, services, and bills. However, if the money lands in the hands of say a Bank, that money is used to create New Debt that can never be fully repaid by everyone and works against the economy. Totally debatable though as money is used for many different things by everyone. In the end, its is the exaccerbation of public debt that harms people and indirectly, the economy because of their lack of ability to spend what they once had.

[PRB]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Now I can mildly dispute a bit better. The Govt and the Economy may not be harmed directly, but will be indirectly.


I don't care about the government being harmed, the economy? I wouldn't get out of my way to "save" or avoid hurting it either.



The people that are ousted from the workforce dont have any money to spend on the local businesses that normally survive on their income. One person wont be enough to take down a small business, but the effect is cumulative when more and more people have no money to spend.


You gotta be kidding, this is the exact justification for liberals who want the government to force employment and force higher wages, because if what you say is true, it's only logical to make everybody employed and well paid, that's how we keep an economy alive and businesses running. It's NONSENSE.

Yes, it's true that without income you'll have less to spend, but why is that a bad thing? Why do people like you keep insisting that keeping jobs and keeping businesses open is per se a good thing? It's not.

Businesses stay alive when they are profitable, provide value, and aren't forced by government to stay open. Businesses can and should fail when they aren't profitable, don't provide value, and are only forced by government propping. I don't want businesses to stay alive or go bust by any government force, only market force.



That small business folds, which will also become cumulative on the larger businesses. Of course, the larger businesses can just as easily move overseas. Moving is a luxury that big businesses have that is beyond the reach of mom and pop shops.


Rich people have more options and power, shocker, got a point to make?



One might argue that a single jobless individual wont have any effect on the economy at all because the money still exists. It also depends on ones definition of money and how it is used. Average Joe will use it to pay for goods, services, and bills.


Millions jobless will have an appreciable effect on economy, and it's not always a bad thing. Average Joe CAN spend it, but isn't guaranteed.



However, if the money lands in the hands of say a Bank, that money is used to create New Debt that can never be fully repaid by everyone and works against the economy.


Luckily, even that has limit to how long the effects can be. See housing bubble.



Totally debatable though as money is used for many different things by everyone.


Agreed here.



In the end, its is the exaccerbation of public debt that harms people and indirectly, the economy because of their lack of ability to spend what they once had.

which isn't anything to do with unemployment, is it?

[juleswin]

how do you force automation? automation requires that there's actually the technology capable of doing it, AND that it's cheaper. who has a problem using slaves if robots are not available?

Its sometimes hard to tell if you are trying to wind me up or if you are really serious with your question. This thread is filled with people talking about minimum wage causing companies to mechanize and then you ask me how it is forced automation? The minimum wage laws are forced on business who in their attempt to get under the law mechanize.

[PRB]

Its sometime hard to tell if you are trying to wind me up or if you are really serious with your question. This thread is filled with people talking about minimum wage causing companies to mechanize and then you ask me how it is forced automation? The minimum wage laws are forced on business who in their attempt to get under the law mechanize.

I thought about it a bit, and I admit I answered part of my question myself, or you did.

You can't force automation if the technology isn't ready, at best you can be willing to use automation that's more expensive than cheap labor if cheap labor is illegal.

Which will have the same effect as temporarily outsourcing jobs to overseas, in a sense it's "forced" if low wages are illegal domestically.

There's tons of demand for a self driving car, but it's just not ready, or it's not cheap enough for anybody to want it. So can you "force" this automation? I doubt it. the most you can expect is that a robot that requires $100 a day will replace drivers if drivers are forced to be paid $200 a day. But unless and until the robot is made, you can't force it to happen, it just won't.

If tomorrow, the government said every driver on the road must pay a $1M road tax, or he can't drive, people won't find robots to drive cars, although they'd want to, $1M is no guarantee you'll find a robot to do the job. That's what I mean by "you can't force automation".

[GunnyFreedom]

@Gunny - So is a Strike a method or tool of self correction, or is it a form of violence?

Neither, I don't think. It's just a labor dispute. The strikers may be right or they may be wrong. The only thing a strike really says is that there is a labor dispute in progress. The strikers likely consider it a method of self correction. I just consider it an argument writ large.

[GunnyFreedom]

I thought about it a bit, and I admit I answered part of my question myself, or Gunny did.

You can't force automation if the technology isn't ready, at best you can be willing to use automation that's more expensive than cheap labor if cheap labor is illegal.

Which will have the same effect as temporarily outsourcing jobs to overseas, in a sense it's "forced" if low wages are illegal domestically.

There's tons of demand for a self driving car, but it's just not ready, or it's not cheap enough for anybody to want it. So can you "force" this automation? I doubt it. the most you can expect is that a robot that requires $100 a day will replace drivers if drivers are forced to be paid $200 a day. But unless and until the robot is made, you can't force it to happen, it just won't.

Airbags are a technological innovation in automated crash safety, you can't "force" that automation eithe.... oh wait.

[PRB]

Airbags are a technological innovation in automated crash safety, you can't "force" that automation eithe.... oh wait.

airbags were invented whenever they were invented, they were not invented by forcing anybody to.

[DamianTV]

@PRB - Relax dude, Im not disagreeing with any specific point or generalized. Nor do I believe all the points that I mention are the right course of action. Im throwing them out there so they can be torn apart by perspectives other than my own, which often communicate why certain ideas fail better than I can.

The only point (that I think we dont disagree on) that is my own is that Govt involvement is closer to the root of the problem, not the solution. The root, I do believe, is the unlimited printing of money.

[PRB]

@PRB - Relax dude, Im not disagreeing with any specific point or generalized. Nor do I believe all the points that I mention are the right course of action. Im throwing them out there so they can be torn apart by perspectives other than my own, which often communicate why certain ideas fail better than I can.

The only point (that I think we dont disagree on) that is my own is that Govt involvement is closer to the root of the problem, not the solution. The root, I do believe, is the unlimited printing of money.

cool. only minor disagreement.

i don't think it's per se harmful to print money, no more than it's per se harmful for rich people to hoard money. consumers still have a choice whether to spend it or borrow it.

[GunnyFreedom]

airbags were invented whenever they were invented, they were not invented by forcing anybody to.

Robots have also already been invented. Nobody forced robots to be invented either.

[PRB]

Robots have also already been invented.


For what? Driving cars?



Nobody forced robots to be invented either.

Correct, I'm not the one who claims automation can be force created by anything other than innovation itself.

[euphemia]

Let's just clear up some basic misconceptions made in this thread:

1. This is not a free speech issue. People have always been free to say what they want to about businesses and wages.

2. This is also not a labor issue. If people think they should make a certain amount of money, they are certainly free to take their current skills set and go find a job that pays them what they think they are worth.

Fast food has never paid a lot of money. Taking to the streets with signs is really not going to change that.

[GunnyFreedom]

For what? Driving cars?



Correct, I'm not the one who claims automation can be force created by anything other than innovation itself.

Nobody else is claiming that either. Others are claiming that automation can be forced into adoption due to government regulations, not forced into invention.

[PRB]

Nobody else is claiming that either. Others are claiming that automation can be forced into adoption due to government regulations, not forced into invention.

it can only be forced into adoption if it's invented first.

[PRB]

Let's just clear up some basic misconceptions made in this thread:

1. This is not a free speech issue. People have always been free to say what they want to about businesses and wages.

2. This is also not a labor issue. If people think they should make a certain amount of money, they are certainly free to take their current skills set and go find a job that pays them what they think they are worth.

Fast food has never paid a lot of money. Taking to the streets with signs is really not going to change that.

God forbid if some politicians or ballot initiatives think they know better.

[GunnyFreedom]

it can only be forced into adoption if it's invented first.

Apparently the only one who thinks fast food automation has not been invented yet, is you.

[otherone]

Fast food has never paid a lot of money.

Neither has picking cotton.

[GunnyFreedom]

http://momentummachines.com/


Our alpha machine frees up all of the hamburger line cooks in a restaurant.It does everything employees can do except better:

It slices toppings like tomatoes and pickles immediately before it places the slice onto your burger, giving you the freshest burger possible.

Our next revision will offer custom meat grinds for every single customer. Want a patty with 1/3 pork and 2/3 bison ground to order? No problem.

Also, our next revision will use gourmet cooking techniques never before used in a fast food restaurant, giving the patty the perfect char but keeping in all the juices.

It’s more consistent, more sanitary, and can produce ~360 hamburgers per hour.

The labor savings allow a restaurant to spend approximately twice as much on high quality ingredients and the gourmet cooking techniques make the ingredients taste that much better.

Will 360 fully cooked and served hamburgers per hour meet the demand at your average McDonalds? I think so.

It's already invented. Just like the cotton gin.

[GunnyFreedom]

Automated order takers, automated food makers. You are going to end up with one guy all alone in a store just bagging food up and handing it out. Maybe two people scheduled for rushes - one bagging everything up and the other handing it all out. They won't need much management, so there is a cost savings, but it would probably be a good idea to have a solid technician nearby.

[PRB]

Apparently the only one who thinks fast food automation has not been invented yet, is you.

I didn't say that.

[PRB]

http://momentummachines.com/



Will 360 fully cooked and served hamburgers per hour meet the demand at your average McDonalds? I think so.

It's already invented. Just like the cotton gin.

I've heard of these a few weeks ago. If they're cheap enough, they won't need to wait until wages are $15 an hour. I'm looking forward to them taking over either way.

[kylejack]

Let's just clear up some basic misconceptions made in this thread:

1. This is not a free speech issue. People have always been free to say what they want to about businesses and wages.
Sure it's a free speech issue. The people are marching with signs for better wages. They're engaging in protected free speech. (You called this "force".)



2. This is also not a labor issue. If people think they should make a certain amount of money, they are certainly free to take their current skills set and go find a job that pays them what they think they are worth.
They are also free to go on strike. It's still a [mostly] free country.


Fast food has never paid a lot of money. Taking to the streets with signs is really not going to change that.
Whether you think that or not, they have a right to do it, and it is NOT force.

[PRB]

Sure it's a free speech issue. The people are marching with signs for better wages. They're engaging in protected free speech. (You called this "force".)


but that's not the issue. nobody said they can't or shouldn't be allowed to.

what they're asking for though, may be using force, which is forcing people to pay more than market.



They are also free to go on strike. It's still a [mostly] free country.


Whether you think that or not, they have a right to do it, and it is NOT force.

who's disagreeing?

[kylejack]

but that's not the issue. nobody said they can't or shouldn't be allowed to.
tobismom did, actually, she said they're using force and implied they are violating the NAP, which they're not.



who's disagreeing?
tobismom.


It's not free speech. It's demanding something for nothing. If someone wants more money, they should improve their skills and get better jobs. Or maybe get better skills to do the job they have and move up the ladder. McDonalds is opening new stores all the time. Learn English and math, develop some people skills and become a supervisor or manager.


Striking is not refusing to work for someone. It is taking work time to demonstrate that the employer is doing something you don't like and force them to change.

Going on strike is the right of every individual that's not in a contract.

[PRB]

tobismom did, actually, she said they're using force and implied they are violating the NAP, which they're not.



tobismom.





Going on strike is the right of every individual that's not in a contract.

forcing people to change is not always "using force". forcing change is a loose use of the word force.

[kylejack]

forcing people to change is not always "using force". forcing change is a loose use of the word force.
As long as tobismom agrees that people have a right to strike and to carry signs, fine, but I feel she has been evasive on those points, especially the first one.

[euphemia]

tobismom did, actually, she said they're using force and implied they are violating the NAP, which they're not.

Um, no, that's not anything like what I said. I said "strikers" are trying to force McDonalds to pay them more money. That is not the same as "using force."

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, apparently.

I have a full time job that uses actual skills and have not evaded anything. I just don't have time to stay on the internet all day.

[kylejack]

Um, no, that's not anything like what I said. I said "strikers" are trying to force McDonalds to pay them more money. That is not the same as "using force."

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, apparently.

I have a full time job that uses actual skills and have not evaded anything. I just don't have time to stay on the internet all day.
Would you stop dancing around the issue? Point blank question: Do you believe employees have a right to go on strike, and to not report for work at their scheduled time?

[euphemia]

Sure it's a free speech issue. The people are marching with signs for better wages. They're engaging in protected free speech. (You called this "force".)

Again, no, I didn't. People can march all they want as long as they do not restrict my right-of-way through the streets or into my job. McDonalds is not doing anything illegal. They pay what they pay. Striking is not going to change that. What I'm arguing is the benefit of striking in this case.

PS: I have not seen a single fast food restaurant striker where I live.

[kylejack]

What I'm arguing is the benefit of striking in this case.

We can agree to disagree on the benefits. I've been trying to engage you on whether they have the right...which they do.

[euphemia]

This is not a free speech issues. Nobody has challenged the right to free speech. Maybe it's not clear, but I have a full time job that uses actual English and math, so I don't sit around on the Internet all day.

How old are you?

[otherone]

How old are you?

Why make this personal?

[euphemia]

It's not work time. Strikers are not typically paid during the strike, especially non-unionized strikers like these. So no, it isn't "work time." I have a right to stop working for my employer any time I please if I'm not under a contract, even "during work time." They have a right to fire me.

They have the right to voice an opinion. Everyone has that. The employer does not have to listen, or respond. And the employee runs all the risk if the employer decides to fire them.

[DamianTV]

This is not a free speech issues. Nobody has challenged the right to free speech. Maybe it's not clear, but I have a full time job that uses actual English and math, so I don't sit around on the Internet all day.

How old are you?

Oooh ooh, I am Eleventeen years old, with a couple years of experience! Whaddya mean Eleventeen isnt a real number?!?! :p

(sorry, had to try to lighten the tone in this thread)

[kylejack]

They have the right to voice an opinion. Everyone has that. The employer does not have to listen, or respond. And the employee runs all the risk if the employer decides to fire them.
And they have a right to go on strike. And the employer has a right to fire them.

[Anti Federalist]

And so it goes, arguing over scraps from Longshanks table...

[GunnyFreedom]

shudder

[Rond]

I manage a large staff and must keep a payroll budget biweekly.

These dolts have never had to budget anything in their entire life. Just completely brain dead.

[UWDude]

I manage a large staff and must keep a payroll budget biweekly.

These dolts have never had to budget anything in their entire life. Just completely brain dead.

Do you mean your employees?
Do you think managing a payroll is anything special?
OOoh... ...you have a job that requires math 93.
I am sure the plebes beneath you are in awe of your massive brainpower and intelligence!

[Rond]

Do you mean your employees?
Do you think managing a payroll is anything special?
OOoh... ...you have a job that requires math 93.

Do you have a job?

[PRB]

Do you mean your employees?
Do you think managing a payroll is anything special?
OOoh... ...you have a job that requires math 93.
I am sure the plebes beneath you are in awe of your massive brainpower and intelligence!

not massive, but beats people who don't have the ability or desire to learn.

[euphemia]

Why make this personal?

It was an honest question.

[kylejack]

It was an honest question.
Then I'm 33.

Anyway, I'm glad you agree with me that people have a right to strike. Now we can move on to other discussions.

[UWDude]

Do you have a job?

Yes. I am an assistant manager, as a matter of fact, and I had taken calculus in high school, and many of my first jobs were menial. Just because someone is nto in charge of payroll doesn't mean they are incapable of it. Finding someone that knows how to add, subtract, multiply, divide and use Excel is nothing special.

[PRB]

Yes. I am an assistant manager, as a matter of fact, and I had taken calculus in high school, and many of my first jobs were menial. Just because someone is nto in charge of payroll doesn't mean they are incapable of it. Finding someone that knows how to add, subtract, multiply, divide and use Excel is nothing special.

special is relative, isn't it?