we are losing the battle with the interventionists

[cindy25]

over and over, on Fox, on CNN its one interventionist after another. Foley is being treated like Pearl Harbor.

the non-interventionists of the late 30s (led by Lindburgh, Taft, and Wheeler ) did a much better job, and the media then was just as pro-war as now.

[kcchiefs6465]

We make substantial gains, it would seem, but the propaganda is infectious and progress is retarded. Ironically, by retards. (and no offense to the mentally challenged, I really shouldn't group them with the sort of people advocating intervention after intervention)

"Better job" would be subjective. Butler was speaking of these issues since after WWI and we still were dragged into WWII.

Many people here are of the belief that a given majority has the authority to do what it wishes. They hold collectivist beliefs. So they chalk up be taken from as nothing more than democratic or republican process and they feel that the money, (which is already gone but is still up in the air as to how it should be spent), should be spent 'helping' Iraq (for whatever reason) instead of funding this or that (for again, whatever arbitrary reason). Rather than rejecting robbery on moral or utilitarian grounds, they embrace it. I can hear them offering me to move to Somalia from here.

[LibertyEagle]

over and over, on Fox, on CNN its one interventionist after another. Foley is being treated like Pearl Harbor.

the non-interventionists of the late 30s (led by Lindburgh, Taft, and Wheeler ) did a much better job, and the media then was just as pro-war as now.

That's just the talking heads, who are paid to say what they do.

[MRK]

I knew we were going to be in trouble when I felt a strong urge to punish the miscreant who beheaded Foley (I watched the video; PirateBay: James Foley).

If I was foremost overwhelmed with the feeling that I wouldn't mind seeing justice be served to that guy in the form of missiles or ground troops, then we're in for a hell of a ride, because this is going to sell big time to the American public. I really hope I'm wrong.

[Original_Intent]

we are losing because we are the minority that have been, more or less, immunized to propaganda.
There is no "herd immunity", and I think it will be all of our undoing.

[RonPaulIsGreat]

Let's do this, not a mini war but a full out war, where all the pro war death worshipers can go and prove their manliness.

[cindy25]

I am listening to the audio of Those Angry Days, about the battle between Lindburgh and FDR before Pearl Harbor, and it seems amazing how much Obama is following the FDR playbook, either by accident or design.

[Keith and stuff]

We have been losing this battle since well before I was born. I don't see us winning anytime soon :(

[Cleaner44]

The media and their talking heads are simply a loud minority.

[TheTexan]

Intervention is necessary... unless you want the terrorists to win.

[lilymc]

Keep exposing and pointing out the propaganda to those who still rely on the talking heads and believe all the BS.

Maybe if we do that enough times, it will slowly get through the thick heads of those who are still asleep.

Speaking of that, I just did a quick video/blog post on the topic of deception and propaganda. Here it is (http://www.ashestobeauty.net/deception-abounds-be-wise/), if anyone wants to watch it or pass it along. :)

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Because people are easily manipulated via emotional appeals. Rational discussion lost out for almost 1500 years until the 16th Century for instance, and even then it just gets worse in some areas. There are still people today who'd rather rely on the word of one guy in their local church, or on some papal throne thousands of miles away instead of scientific evidence to try and understand the world, for instance. It's always a battle against multiple fronts of propaganda. Governments are the most dangerous now-a-days, so my efforts are on that front for the most part.

[COpatriot]

Because people are easily manipulated via emotional appeals. Rational discussion lost out for almost 1500 years until the 16th Century for instance, and even then it just gets worse in some areas. There are still people today who'd rather rely on the word of one guy in their local church, or on some papal throne thousands of miles away instead of scientific evidence to try and understand the world, for instance. It's always a battle against multiple fronts of propaganda. Governments are the most dangerous now-a-days, so my efforts are on that front for the most part.

Well said.

Listening to the talk radio and cable news windbags feels like I'm in 2003 all over again. They're all itching for another war and so are their followers. All you hear is "blah blah Hitler blah blah blah hit them before they hit us blah blah Neville Chamberlain."

[JK/SEA]

Intervention is necessary... unless you want the terrorists to win.

there really is no debate is there?....

brb...Cabelas has a sale today...

[Anti Federalist]

Intervention is necessary... unless you want the terrorists to win.

USA!

USA!

USA!

[69360]

The problem is that Obama already intervened in the Iraq/IS mess. That's an undeniable fact and sometimes RPF tends to think more in philosophical terms rather than facts and reality. I wish he hadn't, but he did. So now it's more trying to find a balance of protecting the US now and preventing future interventions. Because of Obama's actions, the US military may have to take out IS.

[GunnyFreedom]

over and over, on Fox, on CNN its one interventionist after another. Foley is being treated like Pearl Harbor.

the non-interventionists of the late 30s (led by Lindburgh, Taft, and Wheeler ) did a much better job, and the media then was just as pro-war as now.

That level of desperation would seem to imply that we are actually winning the battle of the hearts and minds. The media is now working overdesperate to make them feel isolated and alone. If we can demonstrate that the media picture is false, that they are NOT isolated and alone, then we win that round of the guerilla war.

[JK/SEA]

Obama is a puppet...

anyone who disputes that is fooling themselves...

look past Obama...look to who owns this frickin' rock...

the only way to stop these genocidal maniacs is to put people in office who just flat out reject this notion we have to police the world. Leave now. Pull everything out...yesterday...

let God sort it out and leave me and my family and money alone. Go play your childish pissing contest somewhere else.

wake the fuck up....if you can.

[Philhelm]

The media and their talking heads are simply a loud minority.

Don't you mean the media and their rolling heads?

[acptulsa]

That's just the talking heads, who are paid to say what they do.

This. You don't listen to the media to find out what the consensus is. You listen to the media to find out what the powers that be (a.k.a. the enemy) wants the consensus to be.


The problem is that Obama already intervened in the Iraq/IS mess. That's an undeniable fact and sometimes RPF tends to think more in philosophical terms rather than facts and reality. I wish he hadn't, but he did. So now it's more trying to find a balance of protecting the US now and preventing future interventions. Because of Obama's actions, the US military may have to take out IS.

Uh huh. So you've told us. We can't leave until we clean up our mess. Only thing is, if we clean up the mess we made in their living room, they'll just get madder and madder because we'll put everything they own back in the wrong spot where they can't find it. We've done that before. That's how the powers that be keep us on this merry-go-round, in fact. You're pleading their case. You're either doing it unwittingly, or you lie when you pretend you aren't with their program, but either way you're carrying water for them.

I'm actually enjoying the hell out of watching Rand Paul troll them. Ron Paul was like old-style cavalry before the days of aerial reconnaissance. He blundered into their traps and they were sprung on him. Now, we analyzed the hell out of those traps, and now Rand seems to blunder into them like his father did, but when they spring the trap on him, he springs his own trap on them, and it turns out to be them who blundered into the trap.

He's too good. We aren't losing this battle. The fat lady ain't even warming up yet.

[69360]

Uh huh. So you've told us. We can't leave until we clean up our mess. Only thing is, if we clean up the mess we made in their living room, they'll just get madder and madder because we'll put everything they own back in the wrong spot where they can't find it. We've done that before. That's how the powers that be keep us on this merry-go-round, in fact. You're pleading their case. You're either doing it unwittingly, or you lie when you pretend you aren't with their program, but either way you're carrying water for them.

I'm not for this intervention in Iraq or the previous one. But Obama did this. The threats have been made and IS has the funding to follow through. RPF seems to sit on it's collective high horse and ignore that. I sincerely doubt that IS is going to accept "sorry" for getting bombed and not take revenge. Something has to be done to remove the threat Obama created.

[acptulsa]

I'm not for this intervention in Iraq or the previous one. But Obama did this. The threats have been made and IS has the funding to follow through. RPF seems to sit on it's collective high horse and ignore that. I sincerely doubt that IS is going to accept "sorry" for getting bombed and not take revenge. Something has to be done to remove the threat Obama created.

Your 'the best defense is a good offense' thinking is what got us into this mess, and is what has kept us in this mess.

Now, you may not be sick of this mess yet, but I am. I am seriously sick of this shit. Long ago.

Sometimes the best defense is a good defense. Straight up. And if you don't believe me, I'll see what I can do about introducing you to the Chiefs' defense, give you a football, and see if you can prove me wrong.

[Ronin Truth]

I prefer to not intervene.

[Warlord]

Boobus loves to rally round the flag and go to war

[klamath]

Every side has their propaganda. And the cycle goes on.

[newbitech]

It's only going to take one highly visible and well timed attack on the CONUS to rewind us back to 9/11 as far as battling the propaganda. In fact, just look at what is getting spun up from a freaking twitter post that ANYBODY could have made.

It is almost comical to me how all the pieces just seem to have neatly fallen in to place. If you pay any attention at all to the MSM, this country has lurched from one crisis to another on a daily basis for the last 30-40 years.

The propaganda is just getting better and better thanks to enhanced media outlets via the internet and what I am now calling the national socialist(NAZI) media (FKA social media).

Yes we are definitely losing the propaganda battle and that doesn't bode well for a successful revolution of ideas. I think one thing most of us have in common with the patriots of the bloody revolution is that we understand the need to win the war of ideas. We understand the propaganda battlefield is where those ideas are won and lost. The problem I think is, we aren't successful on that battlefield because today our communications efforts aren't backed up with disruptive actions.

I think modern patriots are really good at communication and ideas and persuasion through letters and committees which parallel things like Thomas Paine's "common sense" and Correspondence Committees.

The failures I believe are summed up from these words I just read. Basically we do a poor job of handling the "Loyalist".

http://www.ushistory.org/us/11b.asp



Patriots subjected Loyalists to public humiliation and violence. Many Loyalists found their property vandalized, looted, and burned. The patriots controlled public discourse. Woe to the citizen who publicly proclaimed sympathy to Britain.
Families were sometimes divided over the revolution. Benjamin Franklin's son, William, a Loyalist governor of New Jersey, supported the British effort during the war.

I know that the idea of violence scares people. Vandalizing, looting, and burning property don't seem like principled or moral activities for Patriots wanting freedom from oppression.

I also want to be careful to not advocate that type of activity today. The political landscape is much different than it was during the American Revolution. I think those types of activities would be counter productive and obviously illegal. In many ways, I think our country is in much greater danger than it was in its infancy. At the same time, I believe that we have a much stronger advantage than the original patriots in terms of our ability to win the propaganda war.

The idea of freedom and liberty has evolved in those 200+ years. I don't believe we need to violently shame and humiliate the "loyalist". I think we have much better and more effective tools for doing that than violence. So no, I don't advocate for violence against loyalist, but I do advocate SHAMING and HUMILIATING them.

So I think it would be a good discussion to find ways to publicly humiliate and shame those among us who are loyal to our tyrannical masters who ARE violent in shaming and humiliating us.

I think we must start winning the propaganda war and we must start using a more active strategy of public shame and humiliation for those people who are diametrically opposed to the ideas of America.

In doing so in a peaceful way, I believe the fence sitters will be more persuaded to find allegiance with the cause of freedom and liberty for the simple fact of not wanting to be associated to those who have been publicly exposed, shamed and humiliated for their resistance to the movement of freedom and liberty and their active roll in supporting those "rulers" who are our enemies in the propaganda wars.

We are smarter than the patriots of the bloody revolution because we know we have better tools to win the propaganda war and we know how to use those tools without violence. We just need to make our approach to winning hearts and minds move from the 1d or 2d planes of "education" or "education and self reinforcing gatherings" to the 3d planes of "education, self reinforcing gatherings AND public humiliation and shame of our adversaries".

[69360]

Your 'the best defense is a good offense' thinking is what got us into this mess, and is what has kept us in this mess.

Now, you may not be sick of this mess yet, but I am. I am seriously sick of this shit. Long ago.

Sometimes the best defense is a good defense. Straight up. And if you don't believe me, I'll see what I can do about introducing you to the Chiefs' defense, give you a football, and see if you can prove me wrong.

Way to distort what I said.

I don't think there should have been any offense in Iraq. It wasn't our problem or concern. But Obama has now made it ours and we are now threatened by IS, so it has to be dealt with.

You can't just wish away the reality of the threat because you opposed the intervention in the first place.

I'm sick of it too. I'm sick of our nobel peace prize winner getting involved in yet another conflict.

[Cleaner44]

I'm not for this intervention in Iraq or the previous one. But Obama did this. The threats have been made and IS has the funding to follow through. RPF seems to sit on it's collective high horse and ignore that. I sincerely doubt that IS is going to accept "sorry" for getting bombed and not take revenge. Something has to be done to remove the threat Obama created.

This neocon bullshit is a never ending cycle of violence where America never wins. There is always another threat that has to be taken out. It never stops, that is the reality, that is the fact.

Here we are after 13 years or so over waging war against the terrorists and the threat hasn't been eliminated, but instead has grown.

Are you somehow under the delusional idea that all our military needs to do is wipe out the IS forces and then all will be well and we will have peace?

[acptulsa]

Way to distort what I said.

I don't think there should have been any offense in Iraq. It wasn't our problem or concern. But Obama has now made it ours and we are now threatened by IS, so it has to be dealt with.

You can't just wish away the reality of the threat because you opposed the intervention in the first place.

I'm sick of it too. I'm sick of our nobel peace prize winner getting involved in yet another conflict.

I did not distort any of that crap. Nor did I say you didn't oppose the last round of intervention in the first place. Way to distort what I said. And thank you very much.

What I said was...


This neocon bullshit is a never ending cycle of violence where America never wins. There is always another threat that has to be taken out. It never stops, that is the reality, that is the fact.

Here we are after 13 years or so over waging war against the terrorists and the threat hasn't been eliminated, but instead has grown.

Are you somehow under the delusional idea that all our military needs to do is wipe out the IS forces and then all will be well and we will have peace?

...and now that you've heard it explained to you two different ways, maybe just maybe you'll listen. Even if it doesn't change your mind, maybe you'll stop engaging in trollish behavior and move the adult conversation forward by addressing these legitimate points instead of repeating yourself yet again.

Ya think?

[pcosmar]

I'm sick of it too. I'm sick of our nobel peace prize winner getting involved in yet another conflict.
Me too.
But the last to "R" options were guaranteeing an increase in conflicts.
It is the "Rs" that pushed Libya and Syria as much or more than Obama.

It is Obama's domestic policies that are far worse, But if the "Rs" had won I expect things would be even worse.

Our best hope is a Meteorite Strike,, or Super Volcano.. Take your pick.
Total Financial meltdown might work,, but that can and has been artificially propped up.

[thoughtomator]

The workings of the propaganda machine become more and more transparent with each iteration, and in doing so enable vast numbers of people to see through it.

The real message people will receive is that ISIS is such a horrible, imminent threat that their President will throw the borders open and go golfing.

[dillo]

Imagine if we had helped ISIS overthrow Assad a year ago.....

[newbitech]

The workings of the propaganda machine become more and more transparent with each iteration, and in doing so enable vast numbers of people to see through it.

The real message people will receive is that ISIS is such a horrible, imminent threat that their President will throw the borders open and go golfing.

i don't know, this seems to have played out before.


the principle & which is quite true in itself & that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily

[newbitech]

also, this


To attract people, to win over people to that which I have realized as being true, that is called propaganda. In the beginning there is the understanding, this understanding uses propaganda as a tool to find those men, that shall turn understanding into politics. Success is the important thing. Propaganda is not a matter for average minds, but rather a matter for practitioners. It is not supposed to be lovely or theoretically correct. I do not care if I give wonderful, aesthetically elegant speeches, or speak so that women cry. The point of a political speech is to persuade people of what we think right. I speak differently in the provinces than I do in Berlin, and when I speak in Bayreuth, I say different things than I say in the Pharus Hall. That is a matter of practice, not of theory. We do not want to be a movement of a few straw brains, but rather a movement that can conquer the broad masses. Propaganda should be popular, not intellectually pleasing. It is not the task of propaganda to discover intellectual truths. Those are found in other circumstances, I find them when thinking at my desk, but not in the meeting hall.

I think that is where the public shame and humiliation come in to play.

[pessimist]

The elites don't care about popular opinion.

[acptulsa]

The elites don't care about popular opinion.

Must be why they spend billions maintaining msnbc, NBC in general, CBS (both of which are owned by defense contractors, GE and Westinghouse respectively), Fox, CNN and all the rest of their ilk...

[bolil]

we are losing because we are the minority that have been, more or less, immunized to propaganda.
There is no "herd immunity", and I think it will be all of our undoing.

No one is immune. That would be like saying we are immune to information. Never underestimate the ubiquity and power of propaganda. I thought after Syria a corner had been turned, but then I forgot the animalistic nature of humans.

[AngryCanadian]

over and over, on Fox, on CNN its one interventionist after another. Foley is being treated like Pearl Harbor.

the non-interventionists of the late 30s (led by Lindburgh, Taft, and Wheeler ) did a much better job, and the media then was just as pro-war as now.


As for the claim that we non-interventionists we are of the late 30s the best way to counter that claim is this.

"Why did America and Rest of Europe wait so long for Hitler and Fascists to take Over Europe before doing something at last given moments? its as if America wanted to occupy with the exception of claiming to be liberators. :rolleyes:

[charrob]

Let's do this, not a mini war but a full out war, where all the pro war death worshipers can go and prove their manliness.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfAATmWznH4&feature=youtu.be

[AngryCanadian]

The elites don't care about popular opinion.

No they dont care about anything. Like you said neither of our opinions no matter what we say.