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Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 10:27 AM
Cops and paddyrollers killing people have been a problem since modern policing has been around.



Ferguson Follow-Up: “Any Felony Rule,” Velvet Gloves for the Iron Fist

William Norman Grigg

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/ferguson-follow-up-any-felony-rule-velvet-gloves-for-the-iron-fist/

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson, in a press conference notable for its brevity, identified the officer who shot Michael Brown as Darren Wilson, a six-year veteran of his department. Information distributed to the media included reports suggesting that Brown was a suspect in a strong-arm robbery of a package of cigars at a local convenience store. Still photographs, reportedly of the incident in the local QuikTrip, show a large young man resembling Brown involved in what appeared to be an assault on a much smaller individual in the store.

If Brown was a suspect in a crime of that kind, this case would have uncanny similarities to the 1974 incident in which another teenaged suspect, Edward Garner, was fatally shot while attempting to flee from a Memphis police officer following a burglary. As noted previously, that case went before the Supreme Court a decade later, resulting in the 1985 Tennessee v. Garner ruling in which the Court held that “The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable.” This was a rejection of the “Any Felony Rule” under which officers in many states, including Tennessee, were authorized to use deadly force to stop a fleeing or resisting suspect.

The “Any Felony Rule,” it should be pointed out, didn’t enjoy universal approval, even in the supposedly barbarous 19th Century. In an 1858 editorial, the New York Times expressed alarm over the promiscuous use of lethal force by officers of the newly created NYPD against fleeing suspects: “The pistols are not used in self-defense, but to stop the men who are running away. They are considered substitutes for swift feet and long arms… [W]e doubt the propriety of employing them for such a purpose. A Policeman has no right to shoot a man for running away from him.”

The paper’s editorial board expressed concerns about “the policy of arming our Policemen with revolvers.” Today, of course, the thoroughly militarized NYPD is, as former Mayor Michael Bloomberg boasted a few years ago, the seventh-largest army in the world.

Disclosure of Officer Wilson’s name will increase public pressure for a criminal investigation into the shooting. However, there is still abundant reason to believe that the likely outcome of this matter will be a finding that Wilson — owing to his perception of the situation — acted justifiably under the “reasonable officer” standard. This may be complicated somewhat by eyewitness accounts that Brown was surrendering at the time he was fatally shot.

Chief Jackson claims that Wilson was “injured” in the reported struggle with Brown, and that he received treatment at a nearby hospital. No explanation has been provided for the fact that Brown, after being shot at a distance of about 35 feet from Wilson’s patrol vehicle, was left face-down in the street and received no medical attention. His lifeless body was eventually carried away in the back of an SUV.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wt8yEGacIs&feature=player_embedded

Following several nights of protests and counter-insurgency warfare by the Ferguson PD, Missouri Governor Jay Nixon removed the Goon Squad and placed the Highway Patrol in charge of “public safety” in the city. The on-scene commander is Captain Ron Johnson, an African-American who was born and raised in the area.

One “emerging lesson” from Ferguson, apparently, is that after authorities employ the Iron Fist, they should quickly deploy people dressed in velvet gloves. Successful counter-insurgency operations, after all, require an effort to “win the hearts and minds” of the targeted population.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 10:29 AM
I think Grigg should quit while he is behind in this particular instance. Or at least wait until the investigation is completed. This is the wrong hill to die on IMHO.

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 10:40 AM
I think Grigg should quit while he is behind in this particular instance. Or at least wait until the investigation is completed. This is the wrong hill to die on IMHO.

That battle is already lost.

For the next few years, every cop abuse will be met with, "Yeah, but remember Ferguson?"

acptulsa
08-15-2014, 10:43 AM
I think Grigg should quit while he is behind in this particular instance. Or at least wait until the investigation is completed. This is the wrong hill to die on IMHO.

Standing with the Burger Court when it said summary execution is not an appropriate response to a suspected criminal attempting to flee is 'the wrong hill to die on'?

Who says that hill is so besieged that the defenders will die there? Those Americans who think trying to outrun a donut-laden cop warrants the death penalty are a distinct minority. I don't know how carefully you have to pick your friends to be unaware of this, but it's true nonetheless.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 10:46 AM
Standing with the Burger Court when it said summary execution is not an appropriate response to a suspected criminal attempting to flee is 'the wrong hill to die on'?

Who says that hill is so besieged that the defenders will die there? Those Americans who think trying to outrun a donut-laden cop warrants the death penalty are a distinct minority. I don't know how carefully you have to pick your friends to be unaware of this, but it's true nonetheless.

We still don't know if this 6-4 294 pound man child escalated the situation. And based off of the prior incident in the convenience store as well as the tale of a struggle occurring within the car, I'm willing to theorize that our friend wasn't initially fleeing. Now that's not to say that cops on occasion don't shoot and ask questions later because it's well-documented that they have. I don't think Grigg's piece is entirely applicable without a full portrayal of what happened. And that's still up in the air.

acptulsa
08-15-2014, 10:56 AM
I don't think Grigg's piece is entirely applicable without a full portrayal of what happened. And that's still up in the air.

You've been saying for days that you don't think the witnesses told the whole story and you were right about that--to no one's surprise. But no one has intimated for a second that the cops were aware that a large black man-child helped himself to a pack of blunt-makings. And even though a reasonable truth could have saved millions of dollars worth of damage we we haven't heard anything out of the authoritahs that would lead you to say we've been exposed to the truth.

Furthermore, if you tell me there's a holsterable handgun that can propel a 294 pound body thirty-five feet without breaking the wrist of the person who fires it with the recoil I will happily call you a liar.

Up in the air indeed. Airborne for thirty-five feet. Why are you trying to help them insult my intelligence?

Warlord
08-15-2014, 11:04 AM
Contempt of cop. Punishment: street execution

AuH20
08-15-2014, 11:05 AM
You've been saying for days that you don't think the witnesses told the whole story and you were right about that--to no one's surprise. But no one has intimated for a second that the cops were aware that a large black man-child helped himself to a pack of blunt-makings. And even though a reasonable truth could have saved millions of dollars worth of damage we we haven't heard anything out of the authoritahs that would lead you to say we've been exposed to the truth.

Furthermore, if you tell me there's a holsterable handgun that can propel a 294 pound body thirty-five feet without breaking the wrist of the person who fires it with the recoil I will happily call you a liar.

Up in the air indeed. Airborne for thirty-five feet. Why are you trying to help them insult my intelligence?

I think you bring up a valid point. But Dorian Johnson did tell the FBI that his friend did indeed steal the boxes of cigars. Secondly, there are prevalent rumors that the police could have easily prevented the looting but decided not to intervene. So perhaps the Ferguson PD was rope-a-doping the community the entire time for maximum effect. Let the savages be savages and then steal their thunder once the smoke clears.

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 11:15 AM
I think you bring up a valid point. But Dorian Johnson did tell the FBI that his friend did indeed steal the boxes of cigars. Secondly, there are prevalent rumors that the police could have easily prevented the looting but decided not to intervene. So perhaps the Ferguson PD was rope-a-doping the community the entire time for maximum effect. Let the savages be savages and then steal their thunder once the smoke clears.

Given the damage, that would be yet an additional major felony - which would be consistent with the PD's behavior to date.

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 12:17 PM
Contempt of cop. Punishment: street execution

I still stand by this assessment of the entire situation.

acptulsa
08-15-2014, 12:27 PM
I still stand by this assessment of the entire situation.

Certainly a video of someone who might or might not be the dead man-child stealing a pack of smelly cigarilloes and pushing--not punching, but pushing--the clerk who confronts him hasn't done a thing to reassure me that this was all justified. Especially since that video footage makes it pretty clear that said smoke snatcher was not packing heat.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 12:31 PM
Certainly a video of someone who might or might not be the dead man-child stealing a pack of smelly cigarilloes and pushing--not punching, but pushing--the clerk who confronts him hasn't done a thing to reassure me that this was all justified. Especially since that video footage makes it pretty clear that said smoke snatcher was not packing heat.

IF Brown doesn't decide to steal boxes of cigars for his habit, he probably never meets officer friendly. In fact, he actually had a reprieve if he simply surrendered to the officer. So at the end of the day, the gentle giant chose poorly.

http://myreactiongifs.com/gifs/hechosepoorlyindianajoneslastcrusade.gif



He received an F for situational awareness not once but twice. People want to blame the cops but we intimately know what cops do. It's the same reason you don't run into the Alaskan wilderness with shell steaks strapped to your back. Ya know. Brown bears.

acptulsa
08-15-2014, 12:40 PM
IF Brown doesn't decide to steal boxes of cigars for his habit, he probably never meets officer friendly. In fact, he actually had a reprieve if he simply surrendered to the officer. So at the end of the day, the gentle giant chose poorly.

I'm rejecting this one out of hand until you provide proof that anyone anywhere said anything that gives any indication whatsoever that this cop was responding to a call about purloined candy cigarilloes, or that he was even vaguely aware that such an incident had taken place.

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 12:40 PM
The problem with that analogy is that, in free society anyway, every encounter with a cop should not HAVE to be treated with the same apprehension as meeting an Alaskan bear which is ready to rip your head off at any second.

Better yet, why have we built a society where armed grizzlies are wandering around amongst us all the time in the first place?


IF Brown doesn't decide to steal boxes of cigars for his habit, he probably never meets officer friendly. In fact, he actually had a reprieve if he simply surrendered to the officer. So at the end of the day, the gentle giant chose poorly.

http://myreactiongifs.com/gifs/hechosepoorlyindianajoneslastcrusade.gif



He received an F for situational awareness not once but twice. People want to blame the cops but we intimately know what cops do. It's the same reason you don't run into the Alaskan wilderness with shell steaks strapped to your back. Ya know. Brown bears.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 12:43 PM
I'm rejecting this one out of hand until you provide proof that anyone anywhere said anything that gives any indication whatsoever that this cop was responding to a call about purloined candy cigarilloes, or that he was even vaguely aware that such an incident had taken place.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/15/1408118210816_wps_12_LOCATOR_MAP_Ferguson_shoo.jpg

http://www.imgur.com/fnqpnjd.jpeg

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750x970/documents/2michaelbrown.jpg

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 12:45 PM
I'm rejecting this one out of hand until you provide proof that anyone anywhere said anything that gives any indication whatsoever that this cop was responding to a call about purloined candy cigarilloes, or that he was even vaguely aware that such an incident had taken place.

This.

At best, all this shows is perhaps why Brown ran.

Ineffectively, as it turns out, due in no small part to the fact that, being "in the style", he had his pants halfway to his knees.

And I'm serious about this, not just taking a middle aged white man's slap at a ridiculous black fashion trend.

Pull your fucking pants up...your life may depend on it.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 12:46 PM
The problem with that analogy is that, in free society anyway, every encounter with a cop should not HAVE to be treated with the same apprehension as meeting an Alaskan bear which is ready to rip your head off at any second.

Better yet, why have we built a society where armed grizzlies are wandering around amongst us all the time in the first place?

Society is reeling out of control (people foolishly expect teachers and cops to raise their kids) and in turn, we have let police become too unwieldy and revenue hungry. That's the issue we're faced with. I'm not looking forward to playing the role of Mr. Civilization Officer in the future when the entire illusion of a civil society falls apart. I'm really not.

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 12:47 PM
He received an F for situational awareness not once but twice.

You are earning an F in situational awareness as well. Michael Brown is not your problem. Militarized, murderous police forces all over the country functionally eliminating your inalienable rights are.

Please explain to me what you are not getting as to which one is the important thing you should be focused on.

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 12:52 PM
Wait...how could a report time stamped at 1151 hours name Brown and Johnson and the details subsequent shooting, before it happened?


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/15/1408118210816_wps_12_LOCATOR_MAP_Ferguson_shoo.jpg

http://www.imgur.com/fnqpnjd.jpeg

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750x970/documents/2michaelbrown.jpg

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 12:56 PM
Society is reeling out of control (people foolishly expect teachers and cops to raise their kids) and in turn, we have let police become too unwieldy and revenue hungry. That's the issue we're faced with. I'm not looking forward to playing the role of Mr. Civilization Officer in the future when the entire illusion of a civil society falls apart. I'm really not.

So all this striving for freedom is pointless, then.

Your contention is that without a heavy handed, authoritarian force to keep "the savages" in line, we'll devolve into barbarism?

AuH20
08-15-2014, 12:57 PM
You are earning an F in situational awareness as well. Michael Brown is not your problem. Militarized, murderous police forces all over the country functionally eliminating your inalienable rights are.

Please explain to me what you are not getting as to which one is the important thing you should be focused on.

Actually, Michael Brown and his ilk are my problem because they give TPTB the perfect excuse to enact martial law. What do you think would happen if the EBT card system goes offline? Remember that trial episode a year or two ago? It was complete pandemonium.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 12:59 PM
So all this striving for freedom is pointless, then.

Your contention is that without a heavy handed, authoritarian force to keep "the savages" in line, we'll devolve into barbarism?

No. If people took responsibility for each other and their kids (and this cuts across all demographics), we wouldn't need police. What we're witnessing is the great passing of the buck and the government is excellent at concentrating this mentality into raw power.

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 01:01 PM
Actually, Michael Brown and his ilk are my problem because they give TPTB the perfect excuse to enact martial law. What do you think would happen if the EBT card system goes offline? Remember that trial episode a year or two ago? It was complete pandemonium.

Looks like TPTB have successfully managed to transfer your anger at them to a subset of your fellow citizens - a subset which is in the condition it is in precisely because they have been abused by TPTB for so many generations.

Mission accomplished, for somebody.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 01:04 PM
Looks like TPTB have successfully managed to transfer your anger at them to a subset of your fellow citizens.

Mission accomplished, for somebody.

When I go to the ATM tonight, I'm not looking around for the TPTB. Your fellow citizens will just as easily gut you if the price is right. Sure, the TPTB will go through elaborate schemes of control, but don't discount the envy element that they have cultivated to such an alarming potency.

acptulsa
08-15-2014, 01:11 PM
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/15/1408118210816_wps_12_LOCATOR_MAP_Ferguson_shoo.jpg

http://www.imgur.com/fnqpnjd.jpeg

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750x970/documents/2michaelbrown.jpg

So you're seriously trying to convince me that you believe this cop responded to the theft of one pack of cigarilloes, interviewed two or three people, reviewed the footage from at least three cameras, and got a detailed report out on the airwaves between 11:54 and 12:01?

Enjoying being a pawn in their game?

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 01:11 PM
When I go to the ATM tonight, I'm not looking around for the TPTB. Your fellow citizens will just as easily gut you if the price is right. Sure, the TPTB will go through elaborate schemes of control, but don't discount the envy element that they have cultivated to such an alarming potency.

Maybe it's just where I live or my personal view, but I have no fear of either ululating Jihadists OR hordes of urban savages storming my home, shooting my dog, blowing up my home or ventilating my body with a couple hundred rounds of 5.56 or .40 S and W.

Or stealing my cash.

JK/SEA
08-15-2014, 01:13 PM
Actually, Michael Brown and his ilk are my problem because they give TPTB the perfect excuse to enact martial law. What do you think would happen if the EBT card system goes offline? Remember that trial episode a year or two ago? It was complete pandemonium.

you're trying too hard.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 01:13 PM
Maybe it's just where I live or my personal view, but I have no fear of either ululating Jihadists OR hordes of urban savages storming my home, shooting my dog, blowing up my home or ventilating my body with a couple hundred rounds of 5.56 or .40 S and W.

You're lucky. I'm on the outskirts of NYC off a main road. Bad news if this experiment falls. Most likely marauding gangs are in my future.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 01:14 PM
So you're seriously trying to convince me that you believe this cop responded to the theft of one pack of cigarilloes, interviewed two or three people, reviewed the footage from at least three cameras, and got a detailed report out on the airwaves between 11:54 and 12:01?

Enjoying being a pawn in their game?

It's a called a APB via radio dispatch. Officer responded to description and known location. This isn't complex.

acptulsa
08-15-2014, 01:16 PM
You're lucky. I'm on the outskirts of NYC off a main road. Bad news if this experiment falls.

Why are you ducking my question?

Could you do all that in seven minutes? Even if you were headed to that store for coffee when the call came in?


It's a called a APB via radio dispatch. Officer responded to description and known location. This isn't complex.

Radio waves travel at the speed of light. But verbal reports travel at the speed of sound. And video playbacks are hard to make out on fast forward. The cop didn't have time to view more than two camera angles in seven minutes, even assuming he skipped the interviews and had Scotty beam him to the store.

Care to try again?

AuH20
08-15-2014, 01:17 PM
Why are you ducking my question?

Could you do all that in seven minutes? Even if you were headed to that store for coffee when the call came in?

Did you read my response. A 911 call was placed and redirected to dispatch. There wasn't any time intensive investigative work to be made. Wilson just needed to have his radio on. See the map.

moostraks
08-15-2014, 01:21 PM
No. If people took responsibility for each other and their kids (and this cuts across all demographics), we wouldn't need police. What we're witnessing is the great passing of the buck and the government is excellent at concentrating this mentality into raw power.

So now we need to get rid of the idea that children belong to their families and realize they belong to the community? Wow, your propaganda is going for horrid to hell bound.

acptulsa
08-15-2014, 01:23 PM
Did you read my response. A 911 call was placed and redirected to dispatch. There wasn't any time intensive investigative work to be made. Wilson just needed to have his radio on. See the map.

Who's talking about Wilson? I wasn't talking about the killer. I was talking about the cop that you allege drove to a store, interviewed at least two people, cued up and watched at least three videos, wrote up a report and called it in in six minutes flat.

Why don't you want to talk about him? Seems to me someone that talented is well worth remarking upon!

AuH20
08-15-2014, 01:23 PM
So now we need to get rid of the idea that children belong to their families and realize they belong to the community? Wow, your propaganda is going for horrid to hell bound.

I never said that. I said that people have passed the buck instead of doing their job. If you expect teachers and police to teach and discipline your children, you're delusional. That's where we are as a society.

phill4paul
08-15-2014, 01:25 PM
Who's talking about Wilson? I wasn't talking about the killer. I was talking about the cop that you allege drove to a store, interviewed at least two people, cued up and watched at least three videos, wrote up a report and called it in in six minutes flat.

Why don't you want to talk about him? Seems to me someone that talented is well worth remarking upon!

I don't believe the officer that took the report is the same one that encountered Brown. In the subsequent release of events it seemed to also reference the Brown shooting incident which led me to believe that it was a different officer.

Edit: Sorry, I misread. Very efficient indeed.

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 01:28 PM
I never said that. I said that people have passed the buck instead of doing their job. If you expect teachers and police to teach and discipline your children, you're delusional. That's where we are as a society.

Their fathers are gone because the government replaces the income they normally provide to a family. These people are in this condition due to the very government that today summarily executes them in the streets. Yet somehow it is the fault of boys who are raised in ignorance, violence, poverty, and a police state that pre-existed their births.

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 01:30 PM
Radio waves travel at the speed of light. But verbal reports travel at the speed of sound. And video playbacks are hard to make out on fast forward. The cop didn't have time to view more than two camera angles in seven minutes, even assuming he skipped the interviews and had Scotty beam him to the store.

Care to try again?

I'm beginning to see what happened here, I think.

I'm not buying that timeline at all, but I'm thinking that St. Louis Co. PD just won the PR lottery, by matching up Brown and Johnson ripping off that store, to justify themselves, after the fact.

That would explain the delay in making any of this public, as they ginned up the reports, but not competently enough to make sure the time stamps lined up properly.

Would also explain why Brown pushed Wilson back into the car and tried to haul ass, figuring he was going to get busted for shoplifting.

What Brown did not reckon correctly is that he would get executed for that.

phill4paul
08-15-2014, 01:34 PM
I'm beginning to see what happened here, I think.

I'm not buying that timeline at all, but I'm thinking that St. Louis Co. PD just won the PR lottery, by matching up Brown and Johnson ripping off that store, to justify themselves, after the fact.

That would explain the delay in making any of this public, as they ginned up the reports, but not competently enough to make sure the time stamps lined up properly.

Would also explain why Brown pushed Wilson back into the car and tried to haul ass, figuring he was going to get busted for shoplifting.

What Brown did not reckon correctly is that he would get executed for that.



The police chief in the St. Louis suburb where an unarmed black teenager was fatally shot by police says the officer didn't know the teen was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting.

http://politics.suntimes.com/article/washington/ferguson-cop-who-shot-michael-brown-didnt-know-he-was-suspect/fri-08152014-225pm

May well have been nothing more than "contempt of cop."

AuH20
08-15-2014, 01:35 PM
http://politics.suntimes.com/article/washington/ferguson-cop-who-shot-michael-brown-didnt-know-he-was-suspect/fri-08152014-225pm

May well have been nothing more than "contempt of cop."

More like "Shit, blue got me" which would explain how the tussle started.

phill4paul
08-15-2014, 01:39 PM
More like "Shit, blue got me" which would explain how the tussle started.

If I had just robbed a store and a cop told me to get out of the street wouldn't I simply comply with his demands as he rode on by?

Philhelm
08-15-2014, 01:39 PM
Better yet, why have we built a society where armed grizzlies are wandering around amongst us all the time in the first place?

We have to get bear arms somewhere.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 01:41 PM
If I had just robbed a store and a cop told me to get out of the street wouldn't I simply comply with his demands as he rode on by?

Yes, but the fugitive mind works in mysterious ways when under duress. ;) Perhaps, he thought he was getting pinched after acquiring those boxes of ceegars?

Philhelm
08-15-2014, 01:41 PM
I'm beginning to see what happened here, I think.

I'm not buying that timeline at all, but I'm thinking that St. Louis Co. PD just won the PR lottery, by matching up Brown and Johnson ripping off that store, to justify themselves, after the fact.

That would explain the delay in making any of this public, as they ginned up the reports, but not competently enough to make sure the time stamps lined up properly.

Would also explain why Brown pushed Wilson back into the car and tried to haul ass, figuring he was going to get busted for shoplifting.

What Brown did not reckon correctly is that he would get executed for that.

Spot on, most likely.

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 01:45 PM
Did you read my response. A 911 call was placed and redirected to dispatch. There wasn't any time intensive investigative work to be made. Wilson just needed to have his radio on. See the map.

On another thread it's been noted that Wilson did NOT know about the robbery or have reason to suspect his victim had committed a crime when he approached them with intent to use deadly force.

aGameOfThrones
08-15-2014, 01:48 PM
The police chief in the St. Louis suburb where an unarmed black teenager was fatally shot by police says the officer didn't know the teen was a robbery suspect at the time of the shooting.

and you still defend the cop.

SeanTX
08-15-2014, 01:48 PM
Would also explain why Brown pushed Wilson back into the car and tried to haul ass, figuring he was going to get busted for shoplifting.

What Brown did not reckon correctly is that he would get executed for that.

Are eyewitness reports now saying that he did in fact push him back into the car?


Because I remember at least two witnesses early on saying that the officer started to drive off, then backed up quickly after hearing someone mouth off, nearly hitting the two, then he opened his driver's side door, striking Brown with it . If that's so, Brown could have instinctively pushed back on the door that slammed into him, which could be considered "pushing the cop back into his car."

Perhaps an "accident", though I've seen video of a cop intentionally slamming a door on somebody's leg -- many cops do love to "put lumps on people", and not even their apologists can deny that one.

This may well have started with contempt of cop, then a possible assault by a police officer (or accidental striking of Brown), then Brown pushes back against the door, the cop reacts by grabbing him -- then on and on it went, spiraling out of control. Not everyone who the police choose to aggressively encounter over some minor thing is just going to sit back and take it.

Or who knows, maybe the cop striking him with the door never happened . Or , like AF speculated , he had just shoplifted and thought he might be going down for that, so he decided to attack the cop rather than be arrested. Who knows -- it doesn't help that the damn police want to drag out releasing even the most basic information -- they just open themselves up to all this speculation (then they complain about it).

AuH20
08-15-2014, 01:55 PM
Are eyewitness reports now saying that he did in fact push him back into the car?


Because I remember at least two witnesses early on saying that the officer started to drive off, then backed up quickly after hearing someone mouth off, nearly hitting the two, then he opened his driver's side door, striking Brown with it . If that's so, Brown could have instinctively pushed back on the door that slammed into him, which could be considered "pushing the cop back into his car."

Perhaps an "accident", though I've seen video of a cop intentionally slamming a door on somebody's leg -- many cops do love to "put lumps on people", and not even their apologists can deny that one.

This may well have started with contempt of cop, then a possible assault by a police officer (or accidental striking of Brown), then Brown pushes back against the door, the cop reacts by grabbing him -- then on and on it went, spiraling out of control. Not everyone who the police choose to aggressively encounter over some minor thing is just going to sit back and take it.

Or who knows, maybe the cop striking him with the door never happened .

Here is another third person account from a friend of the officer. Woman called in. Note she said that he originally drove past them before turning back AFTER RECEIVING THE CALL:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzBdY6WXeRE#t=118

2:40 mark - Assailant apparently taunted the officer before charging while gun was still pointed at him. DUMB DUMB DUMB. Good riddance. Categorize this one as young and dumb.

Philhelm
08-15-2014, 01:55 PM
The arguments over this issue are ridiculous. It's pretty fucking obvious that the murderous, militaristic police are a far greater threat to liberty than some teenage hoodlum stealing candy bars.

aGameOfThrones
08-15-2014, 01:57 PM
"robbery suspect"= not the main point

contempt of cop= is the main point!

Lucille
08-15-2014, 01:59 PM
"robbery suspect"= not the main point

contempt of cop= is the main point!

The cop didn't even know (http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/15/would-police-have-withheld-claim-that-mi) he was a suspect at the time.

aGameOfThrones
08-15-2014, 02:02 PM
The cop didn't even know (http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/15/would-police-have-withheld-claim-that-mi) he was a suspect at the time.

I know. my comment is for that murderer defender.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 02:07 PM
The cop didn't even know (http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/15/would-police-have-withheld-claim-that-mi) he was a suspect at the time.

Not exactly. Officer never accosted or pulled over both suspects after 1st encounter. He simply wanted them to move over so he could pass. During this encounter words were muttered by both suspects and the officer kept going but he pulled up ahead being suspicious of what had just transpired. That's when the call came in detailing the stolen cigars and descriptions.

kcchiefs6465
08-15-2014, 02:09 PM
Not exactly. Officer never accosted or pulled over both suspects after 1st encounter. He simply wanted them to move over so he could pass. During this encounter words were muttered by both suspects and the officer kept going but he pulled up ahead being suspicious of what had just transpired. That's when the call came in detailing the stolen cigars and descriptions.
Source?

AuH20
08-15-2014, 02:10 PM
Source?

Go to post #47.

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 02:17 PM
Go to post #47.

Multiple sources reporting Ferguson PD saying Wilson had no knowledge of the robbery and was not responding to a call.

Danke
08-15-2014, 02:19 PM
Here is another third person account from a friend of the officer. Woman called in. Note she said that he originally drove past them before turning back AFTER RECEIVING THE CALL:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzBdY6WXeRE#t=118

2:40 mark - Assailant apparently taunted the officer before charging while gun was still pointed at him. DUMB DUMB DUMB. Good riddance. Categorize this one as young and dumb.


Too bad the encounter wasn't recorded.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 02:20 PM
Multiple sources reporting Ferguson PD saying Wilson had no knowledge of the robbery and was not responding to a call.

True initially. He ran into them completely at random. Then a call was made per 911 dispatch sent in by the Pakistani store owner. According to reports, Wilson never accosted them after telling them to move out of the road so he could pass. It was afterwards when he reversed back when all hell broke loose.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 02:21 PM
Too bad the encounter wasn't recorded.

A woman said she was about to record it during the initial struggle but ran away after a round went off.

aGameOfThrones
08-15-2014, 02:22 PM
I hope you atone for your 200 pro murderer posts. Eric garner deserved to be choked to death cuz he was "allegedly"(even when there is no actual proof he was doing that)selling untaxed cigarettes, am I right?

AuH20
08-15-2014, 02:23 PM
I hope you atone for your 200 pro murderer posts. Eric garner deserved to be choked to death cuz he was "allegedly"(even when there is no actual proof he was doing that)selling untaxed cigarettes, am I right?

Nope. Just because I disagree with you in this instance doesn't mean I'm pro-Cop. Garner shouldn't have been touched. He was selling freaking cigarettes. He didn't hurt anybody or steal their property.

aGameOfThrones
08-15-2014, 02:27 PM
Nope. Just because I disagree with you in this instance doesn't mean I'm pro-Cop. Garner shouldn't have been touched. He was selling freaking cigarettes. He didn't hurt anybody or steal their property.


brown= deserved it because he allegedly did something illegal(unknown to the hero)

garner= didn't deserved it even when he allegedly did something illegal.

Occam's Banana
08-15-2014, 02:50 PM
I'm not looking forward to playing the role of Mr. Civilization Officer in the future when the entire illusion of a civil society falls apart. I'm really not.

In this meantime of the pre-apocalypse, maybe you should get that complex checked out ...
... 'coz we ain't looking forward to you playing the role of "Mr. Civilization Officer" either. :rolleyes:

Warlord
08-15-2014, 02:56 PM
brown= deserved it because he allegedly did something illegal(unknown to the hero)

garner= didn't deserved it even when he allegedly did something illegal.

Kelly THomas did it to himself too lest we forget.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 02:59 PM
Kelly Thomas didn't assault a store clerk or police officer. And he didn't take someone else s property. Don't disrespect his memory by even equating him with this Darwin Award winner.

aGameOfThrones
08-15-2014, 03:05 PM
Kelly Thomas didn't assault a store clerk or police officer. And he didn't take someone else s property. Don't disrespect his memory by even equating him with this Darwin Award winner.

Eric garner took the state's property(tax money), Eric garner hurt the state.

Kelly Thomas did this....

http://images.onset.freedom.com/ocregister/lead/mx40gu-b781218380z.120131130195632000gdr1h8kur.2.jpg

SeanTX
08-15-2014, 03:41 PM
Kelly Thomas did this....



The two cases are remotely similar in some respects. Both started as a stop for a minor offense, that was then escalated.

Kelly Thomas was found to have had "stolen mail" from some law firm in his backpack. A possible federal offense, among other things (possible identity theft, etc). Maybe not as bad as "strong arm robbery", but perhaps equally illegal in the eyes of the law, or even more so.

And never mind that it may have been mail that was thrown away. Officer Ramos had no way of knowing that. He was just doing his job, investigating a possible crime. Then Kelly Thomas resisted arrest, and paid the ultimate price for contempt of cop. He did it to himself -- just as Mike Brown did.

We also shouldn't forget that a few years prior to this Kelly Thomas violently attacked his grandfather (that was trotted out during all of that, when of course it had nothing to do with the police murdering him ).

CPUd
08-15-2014, 05:19 PM
From the dispatch audio (within the first 10 minutes or so), they had a call about a woman having a panic attack inside a store. The first mention of 'crowd control' came maybe a minute later. I don't know if the panic attack call was related to the robbery (they do give the address though).

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 07:03 PM
I'm rejecting this one out of hand until you provide proof that anyone anywhere said anything that gives any indication whatsoever that this cop was responding to a call about purloined candy cigarilloes, or that he was even vaguely aware that such an incident had taken place.

Nailed it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?457985-Police-Officer-Wasn-t-Aware-Michael-Brown-Was-a-Suspect-in-Alleged-Robbery&p=5618249#post5618249

Danke
08-15-2014, 07:10 PM
Nailed it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?457985-Police-Officer-Wasn-t-Aware-Michael-Brown-Was-a-Suspect-in-Alleged-Robbery&p=5618249#post5618249

Listen to the whole Q&A from the police chief (not the edited down version). All he admits to is Wilson didn't initially know about the robbery.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 07:14 PM
Listen to the whole Q&A from the police chief (not the edited down version). All he admits to is Wilson didn't initially know about the robbery.

Correct. Good find. They are trying to placate both sides and don't want to embarrass a grieving family.

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 07:19 PM
Listen to the whole Q&A from the police chief (not the edited down version). All he admits to is Wilson didn't initially know about the robbery.

Right, so the initial contact could not have been related to the robbery.

Cop stops Brown and Johnson.

Cop gives them lip.

They give it back.

Cop stops and throws door open.

Brown figures, "Oh shit, I'm busted."

Slams door of cop car back on Wilson who draws and fires one shot.

Brown attempts to haul ass, but can't because his pants are around his knees.

Brown makes about ten yards.

Wilson shoots, however many times, and kills him.

phill4paul
08-15-2014, 07:19 PM
Correct. Good find. They are trying to placate both sides and don't want to embarrass a grieving family.

No. The police chief is just an idiot that gets flustered and can't read from a prepared statement in front of a crowd. A timeline of events should have been presented by, at most, the second day into this. They are either incompetent or criminal. Perhaps a bit of both.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 07:25 PM
Right, so the initial contact could not have been related to the robbery.

Cop stops Brown and Johnson.

Cop gives them lip.

They give it back.

Cop stops and throws door open.

Brown figures, "Oh shit, I'm busted."

Slams door of cop car back on Wilson who draws and fires one shot.

Brown attempts to haul ass, but can't because his pants are around his knees.

Brown makes about ten yards.

Wilson shoots, however many times, and kills him.

Based on the recount of what happened from a family friend. This is what allegedly happened:

Cop sees Brown and Johnson in middle of road. He tells them to move to side so he can pass. As he's passing they curse at him under their breath. Cop keeps going but puzzled by reaction. Pulls up ahead to side of the road monitoring them. Not soon after a call comes in from dispatch with info from the convenience store robbery. Cop sees that Johnson is carrying the cigars and clothing matches. Reverses course and drama ensues.

phill4paul
08-15-2014, 07:29 PM
Based on the recount of what happened from a family friend. This is what allegedly happened:

Cop sees Brown and Johnson in middle of road. He tells them to move to side so he can pass. As he's passing they curse at him under his breath. Cop keeps going but puzzled by reaction. Pulls up ahead to side of the road monitoring them. Not soon after a call comes in from dispatch with info from the convenience store robbery. Cop sees that Johnson is carrying the cigars and clothing matches. Reverses course and drama ensues.

So a cops friend, who hears it from the cops wife, account is taken as gospel by you but none of the eyewitness accounts do. Interesting. Where is that "let's wait to see the facts" attitude from you?

AuH20
08-15-2014, 07:38 PM
So a cops friend, who hears it from the cops wife, account is taken as gospel by you but none of the eyewitness accounts do. Interesting. Where is that "let's wait to see the facts" attitude from you?

I wouldn't say gospel but it makes far more sense than the other accounts. Especially after the prime eyewitness (suspect) was already shown to be lying. The original testimony is unraveling and now we learn key facts were omitted. Secondly, the police officer in question had a spotless record. No filed complaints or infractions in his 6 year career. Usually, sociopaths leave behind a paper trail to follow. It doesn't add up how this cop would suddenly deviate and kill with impunity. Meanwhile, we have Brown who already displayed his belligerent nature on the surveillance tape.

aGameOfThrones
08-15-2014, 07:41 PM
I wouldn't say gospel but it makes far more sense than the other accounts. Especially after the prime eyewitness (suspect) was already shown to be lying. Secondly, the police officer in question had a sterling record. No filed complaints or infractions in his 6 year career. It doesn't add up how this cop would suddenly deviate and kill with impunity.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/08/Jack-Nicholson-lol.gif

AuH20
08-15-2014, 07:52 PM
Here it is:


"He pulled up ahead of them. And then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery. And, they gave a description. And, he’s looking at them and they got something in their hands and it looks like it could be what, you know those cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them. Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did. And, then he opened the car again. He tried to get out. He stands up.

And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and them Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off. [which would explain the round going off in car]

Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, “Freeze!” Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.”

It should be interesting to see what the toxicology reports reveal in 4 weeks.

jclay2
08-15-2014, 08:49 PM
Escalating any situation to the finality of death. This, unfortunately, is standard operating procedure for cops. RIP peacemakers.

jclay2
08-15-2014, 08:57 PM
I wouldn't say gospel but it makes far more sense than the other accounts. Especially after the prime eyewitness (suspect) was already shown to be lying. The original testimony is unraveling and now we learn key facts were omitted. Secondly, the police officer in question had a spotless record. No filed complaints or infractions in his 6 year career. Usually, sociopaths leave behind a paper trail to follow. It doesn't add up how this cop would suddenly deviate and kill with impunity. Meanwhile, we have Brown who already displayed his belligerent nature on the surveillance tape.

It is true that the details are still very fuzzy surrounding this. But do you really think that this stupid young kid provoked the cop to the point of his own execution? Sure it is possible, I just find it hard to believe.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 09:02 PM
It is true that the details are still very fuzzy surrounding this. But do you really think that this stupid young kid provoked the cop to the point of his own execution? Sure it is possible, I just find it hard to believe.

I'm thinking the kid wanted to get out of there and the only way was through the cop. Fight or flight response. And being a man mountain with a likely history of physical conquests, he probably thought he would overpower the cop since the cop would be too frightened to shoot him in a black neighborhood.

Danke
08-15-2014, 09:02 PM
Right, so the initial contact could not have been related to the robbery.

Cop stops Brown and Johnson.

Cop gives them lip.

They give it back.

Cop stops and throws door open.

Brown figures, "Oh shit, I'm busted."

Slams door of cop car back on Wilson who draws and fires one shot.

Brown attempts to haul ass, but can't because his pants are around his knees.

Brown makes about ten yards.

Wilson shoots, however many times, and kills him.

You weren't there, I wasn't there. So you are just speculating.

No recording. So no one really knows.

But we have a cop with a busied face, how did that happen?

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 09:09 PM
But we have a cop with a busied face, how did that happen?

from writing gay slurs on restaurant receipts

orenbus
08-15-2014, 09:48 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiLX0MpzzF4

Danke
08-15-2014, 10:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiLX0MpzzF4

Post this crap at Daily Kos or Democratic Underground.

The Young Turks propaganda doesn't belong here.

You and Zippy get a room.

AuH20
08-15-2014, 10:26 PM
Post this crap at Daily Kos or Democratic Underground.

The Young Turks propaganda doesn't belong here.

You and Zippy get a room.

You're not down with the struggle Danke? :) You don't want to see social justice served?

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 10:34 PM
Post this crap at Daily Kos or Democratic Underground.

The Young Turks propaganda doesn't belong here.

You and Zippy get a room.

Did this place suddenly turn into freerepublic.com? There's nothing even slightly objectionable about the TYT content.

Anti Federalist
08-15-2014, 10:40 PM
You're not down with the struggle Danke? :) You don't want to see social justice served?

He's just pissed because I won't pay for his rehab stint.

Danke
08-15-2014, 10:45 PM
Did this place suddenly turn into freerepublic.com? There's nothing even slightly objectionable about the TYT content.

No, they both slam and misrepresent liberty candidates like Ron Paul and his son. Get a clue.

kcchiefs6465
08-15-2014, 10:48 PM
Here it is:

It should be interesting to see what the toxicology reports reveal in 4 weeks.
Marijuana. Possibly some pills.

It'd be more interesting to see the autopsy report. That's been completed, right?

Curious it hasn't vindicated the officer yet.

orenbus
08-15-2014, 11:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4f74qeppJo

thoughtomator
08-15-2014, 11:23 PM
No, they both slam and misrepresent liberty candidates like Ron Paul and his son. Get a clue.

Did you miss their glowing praise for Rand Paul's TIME essay?

moostraks
08-16-2014, 05:30 AM
I never said that. I said that people have passed the buck instead of doing their job. If you expect teachers and police to teach and discipline your children, you're delusional. That's where we are as a society.

Interesting because you advocate people taking more responsibility "for each other". In my world I am responsible for myself and my children until they are adults and then they are responsible for their own actions. I am not responsible for what an other adult chooses to do. The police get paid supposed to protect and serve and yet treat the community like a sandbox and walk around like the playground bully. Teachers are responsible as surrogate parents because parents abdicate their responsibilities when they are under the guidance of a teacher. It is people not wanting to be responsible for what choices they make in careers be it parents, teachers, or police and the duties involved in such a career path. Seems as though you think the blame should be lumped completely on parents whilst wringing your hands about the poor government agents. You speak out both sides of your mouth...

acptulsa
08-16-2014, 06:36 AM
Based on the recount of what happened from a family friend. This is what allegedly happened:

Cop sees Brown and Johnson in middle of road. He tells them to move to side so he can pass. As he's passing they curse at him under their breath. Cop keeps going but puzzled by reaction. Pulls up ahead to side of the road monitoring them. Not soon after a call comes in from dispatch with info from the convenience store robbery. Cop sees that Johnson is carrying the cigars and clothing matches. Reverses course and drama ensues.

So now we have a cop going to the store, interviewing at least two witnesses, cueing up and watching at least three videos, writing his report and getting it called in in seven minutes flat.

Still rather miraculous.


I'm thinking the kid wanted to get out of there and the only way was through the cop. Fight or flight response. And being a man mountain with a likely history of physical conquests, he probably thought he would overpower the cop since the cop would be too frightened to shoot him in a black neighborhood.

He figured he was fat enough to bum rush an armed man from over thirty-five feet away after retreating over thirty-five feet?

But you're not reaching at all, right?

Thank you, though, for admitting that the official version of events is too silly to defend.