Feds upset that technology is making it more difficult to spy on people

[green73]

Federal law enforcement and intelligence authorities say they are increasingly struggling to conduct court-ordered wiretaps [read: sham FISA "court"] on suspects because of a surge in chat services, instant messaging and other online communications that lack the technical means to be intercepted.

A “large percentage” of wiretap orders to pick up the communications of suspected spies and foreign agents are not being fulfilled, FBI officials said. Law enforcement agents are citing the same challenge in criminal cases; agents, they say, often decline to even seek orders when they know firms lack the means to tap into a suspect’s communications in real time.

“It’s a significant problem, and it’s continuing to get worse,” Amy S. Hess, executive assistant director of the FBI’s Science and Technology Branch, said in a recent interview.

One former U.S. official said that each year “hundreds” of individualized wiretap orders for foreign intelligence are not being fully executed because of a growing gap between the government’s legal authority and its practical ability to capture communications — a problem that bureau officials have called “going dark.”

Officials have expressed alarm for several years about the expansion of online communication services that — unlike traditional and cellular telephone communications — lack intercept capabilities because they are not required by law to build them in.

But the proliferation of these services and a greater wariness — if not hostility — toward government agencies in the wake of revelations about broad National Security Agency surveillance have become a double whammy for law enforcement and intelligence agencies, according to FBI officials and others.

Today, at least 4,000 companies in the United States provide some form of communication service, and a “significant portion” are not required by law to make sure their platforms are wiretap-ready, Hess said. Among the types of services that were unthinkable not long ago are photo-sharing services, which say they allow users to send photos that are automatically deleted, and peer-to-peer Internet phone calls, for which there are no practical means for interception.

Meanwhile, the disclosures by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden have fostered a widespread view that the government is excessively sweeping up all manner of Americans’ communications. Founded or not, that impression, FBI officials argue, has unfairly extended to the investigations of law enforcement and intelligence agencies that obtain individual warrants to intercept the calls, chats and instant messages of suspected criminals and spies.

cont.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/proliferation-of-new-online-communications-services-poses-hurdles-for-law-enforcement/2014/07/25/645b13aa-0d21-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

[VBRonPaulFan]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-G84uzvuoXdQ/UlR4gOqQrEI/AAAAAAAAABY/Ztgvfxhzi18/s288/grumpy-cat-hates-easter-good-dogs-1366980895.jpg

[Kotin]

cry me a fucking river.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I think if I found such a voyeur jacking off outside my window, while watching me change - well, I would probably try and catch the SOB, string them up by their balls from the nearest tree limb, cover their body in honey and kick the shit out of the nearest nest of fire ants...

Jus sayin...

-t

[lib3rtarian]

Whenever the law enforcement wants to push for more police state and surveillance, it's always gift-wrapped in causes like catching pedophiles, child porn etc. Causes which no one dare say no to. But in reality, once the cops get the goodies they want, 1% of the time it's used against a pedophile or a rapist (someone who actually deserves it), and the other 99% it's used to crush innocent people.

[LibertyEsq]

Mostly good but when it comes to p2p phone calls, there really needs to be some mechanism to trace calls when there is a reasonable basis of suspicion to do so (and when authorities already know who/what they are looking for)...just look up the phenomenon of "swatting" if you want to know why. People can cause chaos via prank calls these days, including having swat teams kick down doors, put families on the floor and arrest people who actually did nothing, without a warrant, because of an "anonymous tip." The story of the flashbang in the baby crib kinda exacerbates this point..

[muh_roads]

It's only going to get worse for them as new protocols are created with their spying bullshit in mind.

Thank you Edward Snowden for shining light on these rats.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Whenever the law enforcement wants to push for more police state and surveillance, it's always gift-wrapped in causes like catching pedophiles, child porn etc. Causes which no one dare say no to. But in reality, once the cops get the goodies they want, 1% of the time it's used against a pedophile or a rapist (someone who actually deserves it), and the other 99% it's used to crush innocent people.

You are off by 1%...

Take for example the massive video surveillance and licence plate scanner network sold to the DC area public as a measure to recover stolen vehicles. Guess how many stolen cars have been recovered...

yeah...

ppl trackers r us...


Mostly good but when it comes to p2p phone calls, there really needs to be some mechanism to trace calls when there is a reasonable basis of suspicion to do so (and when authorities already know who/what they are looking for)...just look up the phenomenon of "swatting" if you want to know why. People can cause chaos via prank calls these days, including having swat teams kick down doors, put families on the floor and arrest people who actually did nothing, without a warrant, because of an "anonymous tip." The story of the flashbang in the baby crib kinda exacerbates this point..

How about we just de-militarize the police and get rid of SWAT teams...

What about if we made raiding the wrong house and killing the occupant(s) a felony with a mandatory min of life in prison.
How about a cop killing a family pet worth 10 years.
About cops responding to a call for help and killing those they were called to help... wow! Some days I really don't want to read this forum...

What my mom told me: A police man is your friend.
What I'd tell any kid today: If you see a cop - run the fuck away!

Both pieces of advice are good in their respective eras. (sp)
I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK! :(

-t

[LibertyEsq]

How about we just de-militarize the police and get rid of SWAT teams...

What my mom told me: A police man is your friend.
What I'd tell any kid today: If you see a cop - run the fuck away!

-t

Fair point but as things stand right now, the concept of anonymous tips really needs to be remedied

[VBRonPaulFan]

Fair point but as things stand right now, the concept of anonymous tips really needs to be remedied

what? you mean with... actual... police work... ?

naw, fuck that. let's just run up on this dudes house and test out our new bearcat.

[LibertyEsq]

what? you mean with... actual... police work... ?

naw, fuck that. let's just run up on this dudes house and test out our new bearcat.

No you don't understand what I'm saying, I'm talking about the guy making the call not the innocent guy getting his door knocked down. If the fraudulent call is made over an IP masker (which can be done over programs similar to Skype) police can't trace it and they usually have to get the FBI involved to even begin to figure out where the call came from...long after they've already kicked the door down/arrested the family/etc

[mad cow]

Fair point but as things stand right now, the concept of anonymous tips really needs to be remedied

The Sixth Amendment:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

[LibertyEsq]

The Sixth Amendment:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Exactly... Sadly, anonymous tips right now can be used by police in place of a warrant in certain situations (or to get a warrant quickly), even if an anonymous tip could never actually be used against someone in court

[FindLiberty]

Why the fuss now? ...gave it up, inch by inch: http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fourth_amendment

[Anti Federalist]

Founded or not, that impression, FBI officials argue, has unfairly extended to the investigations of law enforcement and intelligence agencies that obtain individual warrants to intercept the calls, chats and instant messages of suspected criminals and spies.

FOAD

[Anti Federalist]

Founded or not, that impression, FBI officials argue, has unfairly extended to the investigations of law enforcement and intelligence agencies that obtain individual warrants to intercept the calls, chats and instant messages of suspected criminals and spies.

FOAD

[LibertyEsq]

One of the most egregious examples of what I'm talking about (pay attention to the box on the right in the video):


Caller ID spoofing, social engineering, TTY, prank calls and phone phreaking techniques may be variously combined. 911 systems (including telephony and human operators) have been tricked by calls placed from cities hundreds of miles away or even from other countries.[9] The caller typically places a 911 call using a spoofed phone number with the goal of tricking emergency authorities into responding to an address with a SWAT team to an emergency which doesn't exist.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VifzzVJXK08&feature=share

http://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFails/comments/2admyl/n0thingtv_getting_swatted/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting


Swatting is the tricking of any emergency service (via such as a 9-1-1 dispatcher) into dispatching an emergency response based on the false report of an on-going critical incident. Episodes range from large to small, from the deployment of bomb squads, SWAT units and other police units and the concurrent evacuations of schools and businesses to a single fabricated police report meant to discredit an individual as a prank or personal vendetta. While it is a misdemeanor or a felony in every state (of the USA) in and of itself to report any untruth to law enforcement, swatting can cause massive disruption to the civil order and the public peace by the hoaxed deployment of police and other civic resources such as ambulances and fire departments.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a country where a call claiming an emergency in a home could be traced (just traced, not wiretapped) to verify the claim, and fraudulent callers prosecuted, rather than one where the above can happen regularly.

[otherone]

The Sixth Amendment:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

The Constitution predates organized police in this country. It's "protections" seem quaint against the angry tonnage of 'roided predators empowered to prowl the streets.

[LibForestPaul]

Mostly good but when it comes to p2p phone calls, there really needs to be some mechanism to trace calls when there is a reasonable basis of suspicion to do so (and when authorities already know who/what they are looking for)...just look up the phenomenon of "swatting" if you want to know why. People can cause chaos via prank calls these days, including having swat teams kick down doors, put families on the floor and arrest people who actually did nothing, without a warrant, because of an "anonymous tip." The story of the flashbang in the baby crib kinda exacerbates this point..

State does not have the authority to force communications to be identifiable.

[LibertyEsq]

State does not have the authority to force communications to be identifiable.

Maybe not, but perhaps companies should be more willing to voluntarily allow for mechanisms that do so. The kind of thing I am talking about could lead not only to scary SWAT situations but possibly wrongful convictions for serious crimes. It would just be better for police to know where these threats/pranks are coming from before the SWAT raids and not months after the fact by subpoena. I'm not advocating for wiretapping or spying, just for identifying the source of "anonymous tips" that do nothing but cause chaos and disrupt people's lives, so such people can be held accountable

[DamianTV]

Waah, get a Warrant first. Oh, they dont even think they should have to do that.

All they are accompishing is driving everyone underground. They are gonna make real threats to the people even harder to spot. Perhaps this is exactly what is needed. Everyone making a collective effort to be free to communicate without being monitored. The sad thing is that the Feds are so accustomed to lying and getting away with it that they are really lying to themselves. They are creating the Fascist Dystopian Nightmare and suffocating people in order to prevent that same suffocation from happening at the purported threat by someone else.

The Feds abuse of power is going to result in millions of people saying the Feds can go fuck themselves.

[nobody's_hero]

See, I think it's quite the opposite. Technology makes it EASIER for the feds to spy on you.

It's hard for me to imagine a bunch of colonists in the 1700s complaining about the drone capabilities of King George when drones hadn't been invented yet. But these days a drone the size of a moth can listen in on your conversation. I believe that if such technology had been possible 250 years ago, the war for American independence would never have succeeded, if it had been able to start at all.

But I'm a luddite, like anti-Federalist.

[DamianTV]

See, I think it's quite the opposite. Technology makes it EASIER for the feds to spy on you.

It's hard for me to imagine a bunch of colonists in the 1700s complaining about the drone capabilities of King George when drones hadn't been invented yet. But these days a drone the size of a moth can listen in on your conversation. I believe that if such technology had been possible 250 years ago, the war for American independence would never have succeeded, if it had been able to start at all.

But I'm a luddite, like anti-Federalist.

Yeah, this:

Is a Future Revolution Possible Without Privacy?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry.php?842-Is-a-Future-Revolution-Possible-Without-Privacy

[devil21]

I couldn't even get past the first sentence.



Federal law enforcement and intelligence authorities say they are increasingly struggling to conduct court-ordered wiretaps [read: sham FISA "court"] on suspects because of a surge in chat services, instant messaging and other online communications that lack the technical means to be intercepted.

Oh, you mean like the same sort of chat and IM programs the IRS used to avoid email archive laws, as admitted by Mr. Koskinen in last week's House hearing? Those same programs?

[helmuth_hubener]

I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a country where a call claiming an emergency in a home could be traced Luckily, technology does not respond to your wishes.

This is not a policy decision. This is technological reality. But, you're welcome to write your Congressman with your concerns. ;)

[LibertyEsq]

Luckily, technology does not respond to your wishes.

This is not a policy decision. This is technological reality. But, you're welcome to write your Congressman with your concerns. ;)

That's not true at all, companies who supply this technology have means to trace p2p calls. That's how anyone ever gets caught right now, except right now it has to get routed through the FBI and takes months to find out. Its completely unsustainable, really. A few kids who know how to mask their IPs can constantly raise hell for the rest of us.

[DamianTV]

That's not true at all, companies who supply this technology have means to trace p2p calls. That's how anyone ever gets caught right now, except right now it has to get routed through the FBI and takes months to find out. Its completely unsustainable, really. A few kids who know how to mask their IPs can constantly raise hell for the rest of us.

Hell being defined as talking about "our Govt is out of balance"? Technology can be used for either good or evil, just like a gun, just like the law, just like any tool... There are threats out there. But I think your reaction to "not being protected by Govt" is both Govt's expected response, and disproportionate from the actual Level of Threat.

[LibertyEsq]

Hell being defined as talking about "our Govt is out of balance"? Technology can be used for either good or evil, just like a gun, just like the law, just like any tool... There are threats out there. But I think your reaction to "not being protected by Govt" is both Govt's expected response, and disproportionate from the actual Level of Threat.

That's not what I am saying at all...it is the government itself that is being abused due to its ineptitude. I don't want to be protected by Govt, I want to be protected FROM government ineptitude, in this case due to anonymous tips - which is a problem generally, not just in the p2p prank call context

[DamianTV]

That's not what I am saying at all...it is the government itself that is being abused due to its ineptitude. I don't want to be protected by Govt, I want to be protected FROM government ineptitude, in this case due to anonymous tips - which is a problem generally, not just in the p2p prank call context

True. People get the Govt they demand. And many, too many, all want the "protect me" and "take care of me" from Govt to the point that said Govt becomes inept. There are two sides to this. The people that want Govt, and the Govt that gives people what they want. One thing to remember for those types of people is a Govt big enough to give them everything they want is big enough to take it all away as well.

[TheTexan]

I don't know about you, but I'd rather live in a country where a call claiming an emergency in a home could be traced (just traced, not wiretapped) to verify the claim, and fraudulent callers prosecuted, rather than one where the above can happen regularly.

I'd rather live in a country where there were no cops and it wasn't simply OK to break into someone's home based on what amounts to zero evidence

[Schifference]

Maybe it should be illegal for any police action to be implemented from an anonymous tip or any person not willing to go on record and be verified/identified. Then old fashion police detective work should be performed to determine if the claim has merit. What is the problem with gathering some non lethal intel and verifying the evidence prior to any type of police action.
There should be a check list and pertinent criteria should be mandated to be met. If a library book is past due or a guy is selling non taxed loose cigarettes on the street corner that would not meet the criteria for a no knock bash the door down raid.
The no knock raid does away with any type of investigative police work.
I am not for any infringement on my privacy. But, if my rights are going to be violated and my home is going to be swatted I would prefer a moth drone to peep through the window and diminish the threat prior to my family member getting blown away.
The cops are operating with brutal force and a stone age mentality. What is so hard with making sure you have the right person, place and cause before sending in the brutal gang?
I am a nurse and I need to verify that I have the right person and am administering the right medication, the right dose, at the right time. If I fuck up I can lose my job, license, and get sued. Doctors that operate on the wrong patient or cut off the wrong arm or leg are held accountable.

[Constitutional Paulicy]

cry me a fucking river.

Dude...I almost posted this exact phrase. Usually after I read the threads, there is little I can say, that hasn't been said already.

[Constitutional Paulicy]

One former U.S. official said that each year “hundreds” of individualized wiretap orders for foreign intelligence are not being fully executed because of a growing gap between the government’s legal authority and its practical ability to capture communications — a problem that bureau officials have called “going dark.”

First of all, since when does legal authority play a role in preventing them from getting what they want. Secondly wouldn't "going dark" define our government.


http://th09.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2010/170/8/9/Join_the_Darkside_by_Xadrea.png

[helmuth_hubener]

That's not true at all, companies who supply this technology have means to trace p2p calls. That's how anyone ever gets caught right now, except right now it has to get routed through the FBI and takes months to find out. Its completely unsustainable, really. A few kids who know how to mask their IPs can constantly raise hell for the rest of us.

It is a technological reality. The game you're wanting the government to play is called "Swat-A-Mole."

Do we play Swat-A-Mole, or do we not play Swat-A-Mole? That is a policy decision. You can please feel free to write your Congressman about it.

Are p2p phone calls going to be made easily traceable? That is a question of technological reality. The answer is no. That answer could only be changed through a lot of hard work by knowledgeable persons in creating a counter-technology. Even then, it might not be possible.

You are welcome to wish for Swat-A-Mole. The government will probably be happy to play. They played it with music downloading. They played it with movie downloading. How hard will it be to add a phone call feature to uTorrent?