View Full Version : Creating a Free Town or County
helmuth_hubener
07-23-2014, 10:05 AM
This has been discussed before. I want to bring it up again and see how much interest there still is.
If there are about 1,000 liberty-lovers willing to relocate, we could all relocate to a town or county of population 1,000 or so and join with the locals to move the town or county closer to liberty.
Who would be interested and willing to do such a thing?
TonySutton
07-23-2014, 10:30 AM
I agree although I would change the wording from "take over" to "join with the locals to move the county/town closer to liberty." Words matter
echo1
07-23-2014, 10:31 AM
While I love the idea...
I have to wonder, is such a thing possible?
If you take over a town, the County, State and Federal Codes and Law still rule you.
How do you get around that?
Just curious
TonySutton
07-23-2014, 10:53 AM
Here is some data for you, counties under 1k pop (2012 est)
Loving County, Texas 71
Kalawao County, Hawaii 90
King County, Texas 276
Kenedy County, Texas 431
Arthur County, Nebraska 486
McPherson County, Nebraska 509
Petroleum County, Montana 511
Blaine County, Nebraska 514
Loup County, Nebraska 589
Borden County, Texas 616
Grant County, Nebraska 629
Yakutat City and Borough, Alaska 668
Thomas County, Nebraska 676
San Juan County, Colorado 690
Harding County, New Mexico 707
Mineral County, Colorado 709
McMullen County, Texas 726
Hooker County, Nebraska 727
Treasure County, Montana 736
Slope County, North Dakota 758
Banner County, Nebraska 760
Logan County, Nebraska 765
Esmeralda County, Nevada 775
Keya Paha County, Nebraska 804
Wheeler County, Nebraska 805
Hinsdale County, Colorado 810
Golden Valley County, Montana 839
Kent County, Texas 839
Roberts County, Texas 854
Clark County, Idaho 869
Billings County, North Dakota 905
Terrell County, Texas 917
Hayes County, Nebraska 953
Skagway Municipality, Alaska 959
Bristol Bay Borough, Alaska 991
Acala
07-23-2014, 11:04 AM
While I love the idea...
I have to wonder, is such a thing possible?
If you take over a town, the County, State and Federal Codes and Law still rule you.
How do you get around that?
Just curious
Federal and state law depends to a large extent on local enforcement. If city and county law enforcement are limited in their authority. State and federal law will still be in effect in theory, but not so much in practice. However, if someone complains to a State or Federal agency about something (like labor law violations, for example) it is likely that state or federal agents would come to town and do their thing.
So you couldn't create a fully free town or county but you could move a fair bit in the right direction.
muzzled dogg
07-23-2014, 11:10 AM
freestateproject.org
ZENemy
07-23-2014, 11:26 AM
If I did not have to move across the country, yes I would consider it.
PaulConventionWV
07-23-2014, 11:45 AM
While I love the idea...
I have to wonder, is such a thing possible?
If you take over a town, the County, State and Federal Codes and Law still rule you.
How do you get around that?
Just curious
It takes a lot of resources for federal and state governments to enforce federal and state laws, especially if a local government decides to go against them. For instance, marijuana is still illegal on the federal level, meaning Washington and Colorado are technically defying the US government. Obviously, there are limits to what you can do, but there are a great number of local codes and edicts that can be changed or done away with that will greatly improve freedom and won't attract too much attention.
From what I can tell, the Free State Project in NH has done some good things for that state, so the only real issue is getting enough people on board.
CaptUSA
07-23-2014, 12:13 PM
Here is some data for you, counties under 1k pop (2012 est)
Loving County, Texas 71
Kalawao County, Hawaii 90
King County, Texas 276
Kenedy County, Texas 431
Arthur County, Nebraska 486
McPherson County, Nebraska 509
Petroleum County, Montana 511
Blaine County, Nebraska 514
Loup County, Nebraska 589
Borden County, Texas 616
Grant County, Nebraska 629
Yakutat City and Borough, Alaska 668
Thomas County, Nebraska 676
San Juan County, Colorado 690
Harding County, New Mexico 707
Mineral County, Colorado 709
McMullen County, Texas 726
Hooker County, Nebraska 727
Treasure County, Montana 736
Slope County, North Dakota 758
Banner County, Nebraska 760
Logan County, Nebraska 765
Esmeralda County, Nevada 775
Keya Paha County, Nebraska 804
Wheeler County, Nebraska 805
Hinsdale County, Colorado 810
Golden Valley County, Montana 839
Kent County, Texas 839
Roberts County, Texas 854
Clark County, Idaho 869
Billings County, North Dakota 905
Terrell County, Texas 917
Hayes County, Nebraska 953
Skagway Municipality, Alaska 959
Bristol Bay Borough, Alaska 991
I vote for Hawaii.
Keith and stuff
07-23-2014, 12:13 PM
freestateproject.org
I think what the OP is taking about more relates to Grafton, New Hampshire. Of course, no one is trying to take over Grafton or anything, as that would obviously be wrong!
There used to be a thing called the Free Town Project. It looked at various communities in the US including Loving County, TX, Dalton, NH and Grafton, NH.
Dalton, NH was decided against because after talking to some of the locals, some of the more wacky people involved in the FTP decided it best not to move there. The FTP's wackist folks were unwelcomed by the sane people moving to Grafton for more liberty. Then these same wacky people tried to move to Loving County, TX. However, it appears as though they violated the law and warrants were issued for their arrest if they went to Loving County, so the wacky folks make sure to stay out of Loving County, TX.
Even before the Free State Project (which isn't connected to the Free Town Project), there was a lady that tried to get a bunch of libertarians to move to the city she lived in - Ft. Collins, CO. Obviously, that was a complete failure.
Anyway, both the Free State Project and folks moving to Grafton are still happening. Actually, they are both by far the most successful of such movements in the nation. You can do both by moving to Grafton or just one of them by moving to anywhere else in New Hampshire.
Keith and stuff
07-23-2014, 12:19 PM
This has been discussed before. I want to bring it up again and see how much interest there still is.
If there are about 1,000 liberty-lovers willing to relocate, we could all relocate to a town or county of population 1,000 or so and take over.
Who would be interested and willing to do such a thing?
Taking over a town isn't moral, IMO.
But almost all of the people in the nation that currently would be willing to relocate to a low populated, somewhat liberty leaning place with the goal of bringing about liberty in their lifetime have either already moved to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project, signed up for the Free State Project but haven't moved early or are considering signing up for the Free State Project. That is your market right there. Perhaps you might want to go to NH and try to convince free staters of the idea that it would by okay and even moral to take over an area? I don't think many will agree but it might be worth a shot.
To go along with Tony's table....
Property Tax rates
United States
1.38
Alaska
1.80
Alabama
0.65
Arkansas
0.88
Arizona
1.21
California
0.68
Colorado
1.08
Connecticut
1.72
District of Columbia
1.31
Delaware
0.68
Florida
1.20
Georgia
1.52
Hawaii
0.40
Iowa
2.15
Idaho
1.42
Illinois
1.79
Indiana
2.12
Kansas
2.09
Kentucky
0.96
Louisiana
1.02
Massachusetts
1.07
Maryland
1.06
Maine
1.75
Michigan
1.91
Minnesota
1.27
Missouri
1.42
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/ads/images/misc/spacer.gif
Mississippi
1.44
Montana
1.65
North Carolina
1.10
North Dakota
1.84
Nebraska
2.15
New Hampshire
2.21
New Jersey
1.78
New Mexico
0.72
Nevada
0.83
New York
1.76
Ohio
1.81
Oklahoma
1.03
Oregon
1.22
Pennsylvania
1.70
Rhode Island
1.52
South Carolina
1.38
South Dakota
1.96
Tennessee
1.07
Texas
2.57
Utah
1.31
Virginia
1.12
Vermont
2.06
Washington
1.13
Wisconsin
2.09
West Virginia
0.95
Wyoming
2.18
In addition to an area with low enough population and property tax rates, it would be nice to live in a fairly hospitable area that meets Joel Skousen's criteria for relative safety in terms of being removed from population centers and likely disaster areas.
TonySutton
07-23-2014, 12:30 PM
I vote for Hawaii.
Unfortunately, Kalawao County is actually the old leper colony. The population is limited to the living original inhabitants and no new inhabitants are allowed.
Taking over a town isn't moral, IMO.
But almost all of the people in the nation that currently would be willing to relocate to a low populated, somewhat liberty leaning place with the goal of bringing about liberty in their lifetime have either already moved to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project, signed up for the Free State Project but haven't moved early or are considering signing up for the Free State Project. That is your market right there. Perhaps you might want to go to NH and try to convince free staters of the idea that it would by okay and even moral to take over an area? I don't think many will agree but it might be worth a shot.
One thing that has me puzzled about many of the FSP folks is refusal to participate in the system. Imagine if none of the Free Staters believed in voting (I know many do, but many don't). If they don't vote, existing voters have tremendous power over them; elections are not going to be invalidated just because a small percentage of eligible voters actually vote. That leaves the system in place to continue to oppress the Free Staters.
TonySutton
07-23-2014, 12:44 PM
Overall tax burden by state from taxfoundation.org
United States 9.80%
Wyoming 6.90%
Alaska 7.00%
South Dakota 7.10%
Texas 7.50%
Louisiana 7.60%
Tennessee 7.60%
New Hampshire 8.00%
Nevada 8.10%
Alabama 8.30%
South Carolina 8.30%
Mississippi 8.40%
Oklahoma 8.50%
Montana 8.60%
New Mexico 8.60%
Georgia 8.80%
North Dakota 8.80%
Arizona 8.90%
Colorado 9.00%
Missouri 9.00%
Florida 9.20%
Virginia 9.20%
Iowa 9.30%
Kansas 9.40%
Nebraska 9.40%
Utah 9.40%
Washington 9.40%
Idaho 9.50%
Indiana 9.50%
Kentucky 9.50%
Hawaii 9.60%
Michigan 9.60%
Ohio 9.70%
West Virginia 9.70%
North Carolina 9.80%
Delaware 10.10%
Oregon 10.10%
Illinois 10.20%
Maine 10.20%
Arkansas 10.30%
Massachusetts 10.30%
Pennsylvania 10.30%
Rhode Island 10.50%
Vermont 10.50%
Maryland 10.60%
Minnesota 10.70%
Wisconsin 11.00%
California 11.40%
Connecticut 11.90%
New Jersey 12.30%
New York 12.60%
P3ter_Griffin
07-23-2014, 01:21 PM
Loving County, Texas 71
This is in the permian basin. I'm not familiar with Texas geography but it looks like its around 50 miles out of Midland/Odessa area which is the 'boomiest' area for oil jobs in Texas. Which = good paying jobs even if you aren't in the oilfield sector. This'll be on my radar whether its a 'free county' or not.
the county is also the least densely populated county outside of Alaska.
I think I'm in love :D
helmuth_hubener
07-23-2014, 01:31 PM
Keith's reader's digest version is probably accurate enough to go by. What I'd like to do is this:
There's a network effect making certain things desirable to do only if a whole lot of other people do them too. Sites such as Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com)and IndieGoGo (https://www.indiegogo.com/) successfully solve this problem. They make it possible for people to donate or invest small amounts of money to a large project, but only on the condition that a whole lot of other people do too. The money is only collected if the required threshold of pledges is reached within a given time-frame.
The Free State Project (FSP) attempted to solve the network problem in exactly the same way. Unfortunately, it suffered from some major design flaws. I don't want to criticize the FSP; it's terrific. It's doing great things. Being the first attempt at something of its kind, it's understandable and in fact predictable that it would have problems.
Problem 1 was that the rules were not set in stone, as they are on Kickstarter (and other sites like that, but I'll just refer to Kickstarter for simplicity). They were not cut-and-dried. Or, perhaps it would be better to say that they were cut-and-dried, but then that was changed arbitrarily. On Kickstarter, there are two limiting conditions: that a certain amount of pledges (https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics) be made, and that that happen within a definite time limit (https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/shortening-the-maximum-project-length). The FSP had two similar limiting conditions: a certain number of pledges to move, within a certain time limit. To quote:
Q. What is the time frame for the Free State Project?
A. The Participation Guidelines state that a signature on the Statement of Intent becomes void, and must be renewed by the signer, if three years pass before we reach 5,000 members and select the state. The Participation Guidelines also state that once we reach 20,000 members, everyone has five years to move to the selected state. The Participation Guidelines do not specify a requisite time period between reaching 5,000 members and reaching 20,000 members. However, the assumption has always been that if 20,000 is not close at hand within five years of the launch of the Free State Project (officially September 1st, 2001), the Project will fold. To get 20,000 signers by September 2006, we will need approximately 15 new signatures per day on average. In the month of September 2002 we averaged 7 new signatures per day, while in August and October we have averaged about 20 signatures per day, compared to 4 per day in February and below 1 per day before then. As we continue to expand our publicity and advertising efforts, a constant average of 15 per day should be well within reach.
There were not 20,000 signers by September, 2006, of course. Not even close (7,291). However, the project did not fold. One reason goes to an important feature of Kickstarter not shared by the FSP: separation of powers. Oversight. In the FSP, the curator/rule-enforcer and the project management were one and the same. Not so on Kickstarter. How often has a US President issued an executive order to imprison himself for violating the Constitution? Exactly.
Problem 2 was that the "which state?" vote was held too early. Much of the interest and forum traffic on the FSP site centered around the advantages and disadvantages of the various state candidates. Once the vote results were in, interest and enthusiasm died away quickly. In 2003, it was impossible to be active in the internet libertarian community and not be aware of the Free State Project. The idea was viral. Things were on fire. It was a principal -- probably the principal -- focal point of the movement. Then, in 2005? Not so much. By 2007? Barely a blip on the radar screen. And then the radar screen got bigger. Tens of thousands have come into the liberty movement since, due mostly to Ron Paul and the grassroots campaign we ran around him, and many (most?) of them are completely unfamiliar with the FSP. Virtually none of them have gotten actively involved in it. In retrospect, FSPers will agree that we jumped the gun on the vote. If the state vote had been delayed until the target number of pledges had been met, excitement and intensity and urgency would have been more likely to have been maintained.
Problem 3 was that there was too little skin in the game. There may have been 5,000 instances of pledges on the website. OK. How many of those were real people? How many were duplicates? Anti-liberty jokers? Even of the ones who were actual liberty-lovers, who pledged in good faith, how many could actually be counted on to move? 75%? 50%? These percentages were completely unknown (and still are). They're a total black box. To address this, more commitment should have been required, and more verification of seriousness. An annual meeting should have been held, where pledgers could meet one another. If a man isn't willing to come to a meeting for a few days for the cause, is he really going to be willing to permanently relocate his entire family? I wouldn't count on it. I'd say that's doubtful. If there are ten thousand pledgers but only 10 people are showing up to the annual convention, that tells you something -- bad news. If there are ten thousand pledgers and eight-to-twelve thousand are showing up, that tells you you're on the right track. You've really got something and it's going to work. There also should have been a monetary requirement. In order to pledge, you would have to pay some amount. Perhaps $20. This would probably largely eliminate "joke" and duplicate sign-ups.
Others here may be able to think of other measures that could be used to verify reality of commitment from the pledgers.
Problem 4 was that too large of a chunk was bitten off. A state turns out to be too large, in my opinion, for a variety of reasons. Why start out large when you can start out small and then scale? It seems only wise and prudent. There may not be twenty thousand liberty-lovers willing to relocate to geographically concentrate themselves. There don't seem to be. There certainly aren't that many that the FSP knows about. And twenty thousand may not be enough to effectively control the politics of a state with a million, or even half a million, residents. There are a lot of unknowns. A lot could go wrong. A lot almost certainly will go wrong, as it always does with new start-ups. This geographical concentration idea has no real track record of any successes. It's unproven. So let's start small and succeed. We can prove the concept. We can work out the bugs.
So, I propose to re-boot the geographical concentration concept. It is a wonderful model, and one with a very good chance of success, if done right. We will learn from all the mistakes of the FSP (and of the other initiatives Keith mentioned, for that matter) and build upon that foundation. We will get firm commitments, from real people. We will get the project on a Kickstarter-like platform that can enforce the rules and be independent of us, so that participants can rest assured the rules will be followed. We will target a small jurisdiction in which we can be confident of being a decisive factor, and we will choose it only once we already have enough people ready to mobilize and become that factor.
RonPaulIsGreat
07-23-2014, 01:41 PM
I don't think the value in like minded people getting together regionally is so much in the value of changing anything much in the present. In my view it is more of a benefit if SHTF.
I'd only be interested if the goals weren't primarily political, but deeper than that. Such as promotion of decentralization in all things possible. One of the reasons the government has so much power is because of centralization (centralized electricity generation, food production, manufacturing, etc...). It's not hard to control a large system if there are a few bottleneck systems all rely on.
As far as the politics go, I'm less and less concerned, as my view is we lost the battle long ago, and the ship is going to slowly sink. Why not start building life boats?
PaulConventionWV
07-23-2014, 01:46 PM
To go along with Tony's table....
Property Tax rates
United States
1.38
Alaska
1.80
Alabama
0.65
Arkansas
0.88
Arizona
1.21
California
0.68
Colorado
1.08
Connecticut
1.72
District of Columbia
1.31
Delaware
0.68
Florida
1.20
Georgia
1.52
Hawaii
0.40
Iowa
2.15
Idaho
1.42
Illinois
1.79
Indiana
2.12
Kansas
2.09
Kentucky
0.96
Louisiana
1.02
Massachusetts
1.07
Maryland
1.06
Maine
1.75
Michigan
1.91
Minnesota
1.27
Missouri
1.42
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/ads/images/misc/spacer.gif
Mississippi
1.44
Montana
1.65
North Carolina
1.10
North Dakota
1.84
Nebraska
2.15
New Hampshire
2.21
New Jersey
1.78
New Mexico
0.72
Nevada
0.83
New York
1.76
Ohio
1.81
Oklahoma
1.03
Oregon
1.22
Pennsylvania
1.70
Rhode Island
1.52
South Carolina
1.38
South Dakota
1.96
Tennessee
1.07
Texas
2.57
Utah
1.31
Virginia
1.12
Vermont
2.06
Washington
1.13
Wisconsin
2.09
West Virginia
0.95
Wyoming
2.18
In addition to an area with low enough population and property tax rates, it would be nice to live in a fairly hospitable area that meets Joel Skousen's criteria for relative safety in terms of being removed from population centers and likely disaster areas.
Just wanna say you guys are welcome here in WV. I don't know how much I could really do, but if I get a house in the near future like I anticipate, then I would be willing to help people get settled in. There's obviously a lot that needs to be done before any decisions can be made, but I would definitely be willing to help out. My town is about a thousand people and is currently being occupied by the oil & gas industry workers, so there are job opportunities here as well.
The property taxes are low and the people here are working class.
ZENemy
07-23-2014, 01:56 PM
Keith's reader's digest version is probably accurate enough to go by. What I'd like to do is this:
There's a network effect making certain things desirable to do only if a whole lot of other people do them too. Sites such as Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com)and IndieGoGo (https://www.indiegogo.com/) successfully solve this problem. They make it possible for people to donate or invest small amounts of money to a large project, but only on the condition that a whole lot of other people do too. The money is only collected if the required threshold of pledges is reached within a given time-frame.
The Free State Project (FSP) attempted to solve the network problem in exactly the same way. Unfortunately, it suffered from some major design flaws. I don't want to criticize the FSP; it's terrific. It's doing great things. Being the first attempt at something of its kind, it's understandable and in fact predictable that it would have problems.
Problem 1 was that the rules were not set in stone, as they are on Kickstarter (and other sites like that, but I'll just refer to Kickstarter for simplicity). They were not cut-and-dried. Or, perhaps it would be better to say that they were cut-and-dried, but then that was changed arbitrarily. On Kickstarter, there are two limiting conditions: that a certain amount of pledges (https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics) be made, and that that happen within a definite time limit (https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/shortening-the-maximum-project-length). The FSP had two similar limiting conditions: a certain number of pledges to move, within a certain time limit. To quote:
Q. What is the time frame for the Free State Project?
A. The Participation Guidelines state that a signature on the Statement of Intent becomes void, and must be renewed by the signer, if three years pass before we reach 5,000 members and select the state. The Participation Guidelines also state that once we reach 20,000 members, everyone has five years to move to the selected state. The Participation Guidelines do not specify a requisite time period between reaching 5,000 members and reaching 20,000 members. However, the assumption has always been that if 20,000 is not close at hand within five years of the launch of the Free State Project (officially September 1st, 2001), the Project will fold. To get 20,000 signers by September 2006, we will need approximately 15 new signatures per day on average. In the month of September 2002 we averaged 7 new signatures per day, while in August and October we have averaged about 20 signatures per day, compared to 4 per day in February and below 1 per day before then. As we continue to expand our publicity and advertising efforts, a constant average of 15 per day should be well within reach.
There were not 20,000 signers by September, 2006, of course. Not even close (7,291). However, the project did not fold. One reason goes to an important feature of Kickstarter not shared by the FSP: separation of powers. Oversight. In the FSP, the curator/rule-enforcer and the project management were one and the same. Not so on Kickstarter. How often has a US President issued an executive order to imprison himself for violating the Constitution? Exactly.
Problem 2 was that the "which state?" vote was held too early. Much of the interest and forum traffic on the FSP site centered around the advantages and disadvantages of the various state candidates. Once the vote results were in, interest and enthusiasm died away quickly. In 2003, it was impossible to be active in the internet libertarian community and not be aware of the Free State Project. The idea was viral. Things were on fire. It was a principal -- probably the principal -- focal point of the movement. Then, in 2005? Not so much. By 2007? Barely a blip on the radar screen. And then the radar screen got bigger. Tens of thousands have come into the liberty movement since, due mostly to Ron Paul and the grassroots campaign we ran around him, and many (most?) of them are completely unfamiliar with the FSP. Virtually none of them have gotten actively involved in it. In retrospect, FSPers will agree that we jumped the gun on the vote. If the state vote had been delayed until the target number of pledges had been met, excitement and intensity and urgency would have been more likely to have been maintained.
Problem 3 was that there was too little skin in the game. There may have been 5,000 instances of pledges on the website. OK. How many of those were real people? How many were duplicates? Anti-liberty jokers? Even of the ones who were actual liberty-lovers, who pledged in good faith, how many could actually be counted on to move? 75%? 50%? These percentages were completely unknown (and still are). They're a total black box. To address this, more commitment should have been required, and more verification of seriousness. An annual meeting should have been held, where pledgers could meet one another. If a man isn't willing to come to a meeting for a few days for the cause, is he really going to be willing to permanently relocate his entire family? I wouldn't count on it. I'd say that's doubtful. If there are ten thousand pledgers but only 10 people are showing up to the annual convention, that tells you something -- bad news. If there are ten thousand pledgers and eight-to-twelve thousand are showing up, that tells you you're on the right track. You've really got something and it's going to work. There also should have been a monetary requirement. In order to pledge, you would have to pay some amount. Perhaps $20. This would probably largely eliminate "joke" and duplicate sign-ups.
Others here may be able to think of other measures that could be used to verify reality of commitment from the pledgers.
Problem 4 was that too large of a chunk was bitten off. A state turns out to be too large, in my opinion, for a variety of reasons. Why start out large when you can start out small and then scale? It seems only wise and prudent. There may not be twenty thousand liberty-lovers willing to relocate to geographically concentrate themselves. There don't seem to be. There certainly aren't that many that the FSP knows about. And twenty thousand may not be enough to effectively control the politics of a state with a million, or even half a million, residents. There are a lot of unknowns. A lot could go wrong. A lot almost certainly will go wrong, as it always does with new start-ups. This geographical concentration idea has no real track record of any successes. It's unproven. So let's start small and succeed. We can prove the concept. We can work out the bugs.
So, I propose to re-boot the geographical concentration concept. It is a wonderful model, and one with a very good chance of success, if done right. We will learn from all the mistakes of the FSP (and of the other initiatives Keith mentioned, for that matter) and build upon that foundation. We will get firm commitments, from real people. We will get the project on a Kickstarter-like platform that can enforce the rules and be independent of us, so that participants can rest assured the rules will be followed. We will target a small jurisdiction in which we can be confident of being a decisive factor, and we will choose it only once we already have enough people ready to mobilize and become that factor.
Great post.
What would be the first step in your reboot?
Acala
07-23-2014, 02:02 PM
Overall tax burden by state from taxfoundation.org
United States 9.80%
Wyoming 6.90%
Alaska 7.00%
South Dakota 7.10%
Texas 7.50%
Louisiana 7.60%
Tennessee 7.60%
New Hampshire 8.00%
Nevada 8.10%
Alabama 8.30%
South Carolina 8.30%
Mississippi 8.40%
Oklahoma 8.50%
Montana 8.60%
New Mexico 8.60%
Georgia 8.80%
North Dakota 8.80%
Arizona 8.90%
Colorado 9.00%
Missouri 9.00%
Florida 9.20%
Virginia 9.20%
Iowa 9.30%
Kansas 9.40%
Nebraska 9.40%
Utah 9.40%
Washington 9.40%
Idaho 9.50%
Indiana 9.50%
Kentucky 9.50%
Hawaii 9.60%
Michigan 9.60%
Ohio 9.70%
West Virginia 9.70%
North Carolina 9.80%
Delaware 10.10%
Oregon 10.10%
Illinois 10.20%
Maine 10.20%
Arkansas 10.30%
Massachusetts 10.30%
Pennsylvania 10.30%
Rhode Island 10.50%
Vermont 10.50%
Maryland 10.60%
Minnesota 10.70%
Wisconsin 11.00%
California 11.40%
Connecticut 11.90%
New Jersey 12.30%
New York 12.60%
The total tax burden question is really complicated. You have some combination of income tax, property tax, and/or sales tax and there are advantages and disadvantages to each depending on your own personal factors. Then there are in many states various exemptions from those taxes again depending on your personal situation. I'm flumoxed. What is needed is a spread sheet type program into which you can enter your personal circumstances and which will then compare tax burdens among the states.
Keith and stuff
07-23-2014, 02:03 PM
So, I propose to re-boot the geographical concentration concept. It is a wonderful model, and one with a very good chance of success, if done right. We will learn from all the mistakes of the FSP (and of the other initiatives Keith mentioned, for that matter) and build upon that foundation. We will get firm commitments, from real people. We will get the project on a Kickstarter-like platform that can enforce the rules and be independent of us, so that participants can rest assured the rules will be followed. We will target a small jurisdiction in which we can be confident of being a decisive factor, and we will choose it only once we already have enough people ready to mobilize and become that factor.
One of the mistakes from past efforts is the idea of taking over an area. That's perhaps the most important mistake to learn.
As for a re-boot, since something similar to what you are talking about has been happening for years, and is still happening in Grafton, NH, why even reboot? The idea is real and is happening now. Dozens have already relocated. The 7th Annual Burning Porcupine Festival happens in August in Grafton. You should come and check it out. The event is free, like it always has been. Your family and friends are also welcome to attend :)
56ktarget
07-23-2014, 02:19 PM
This had been tried before. It ended in mass suicide.
Keith and stuff
07-23-2014, 02:37 PM
This had been tried before. It ended in mass suicide.
I don't recall that. Can you remind us? I know a whites are best person is trying this in a tiny community in ND - take over. He has gathered widespread opposition from around the nation (and for good reason) and his plan to take over the town is completely failing. The people in the community don't even want to sell property to those evil people (good for them). They ended up arresting the guy and putting him in jail.
15 January 2014 Last updated at 14:31 ET
The North Dakota town that thwarted a neo-Nazi takeover
By Jude Sheerin BBC News, Leith, North Dakota
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25646954
Acala
07-23-2014, 02:45 PM
One of the mistakes from past efforts is the idea of taking over an area. That's perhaps the most important mistake to learn.
As for a re-boot, since something similar to what you are talking about has been happening for years, and is still happening in Grafton, NH, why even reboot? The idea is real and is happening now. Dozens have already relocated. The 7th Annual Burning Porcupine Festival happens in August in Grafton. You should come and check it out. The event is free, like it always has been. Your family and friends are also welcome to attend :)
What is the terrain of the Grafton area?
One of the mistakes from past efforts is the idea of taking over an area. That's perhaps the most important mistake to learn.
As for a re-boot, since something similar to what you are talking about has been happening for years, and is still happening in Grafton, NH, why even reboot? The idea is real and is happening now. Dozens have already relocated. The 7th Annual Burning Porcupine Festival happens in August in Grafton. You should come and check it out. The event is free, like it always has been. Your family and friends are also welcome to attend :)
What, in your view, is the "proper" idea?
PaulConventionWV
07-23-2014, 02:51 PM
I don't recall that. Can you remind us? I know a whites are best person is trying this in a tiny community in ND - take over. He has gathered widespread opposition from around the nation (and for good reason) and his plan to take over the town is completely failing. The people in the community don't even want to sell property to those evil people (good for them). They ended up arresting the guy and putting him in jail.
15 January 2014 Last updated at 14:31 ET
The North Dakota town that thwarted a neo-Nazi takeover
By Jude Sheerin BBC News, Leith, North Dakota
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25646954
He's probably talking about the Jonestown settlement in Africa. In which case, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we're a religious cult...
What is the terrain of the Grafton area?
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=grafton,+nh&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ei=0R_QU6TIEMGayAT6j4CoCQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ
You can turn on terrain and photos. Not as rough as I expected; looks nice to me!
He's probably talking about the Jonestown settlement in Africa. In which case, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we're a religious cult...
I think so too (it was in Guyana, South America)
The US has a lot of "utopian" communities in its past, often with religious/socialist roots. They were all the rage in the 1800's. There were several here in Ohio.
Zoar Village
http://historiczoarvillage.com/explore/take-a-virtual-tour/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoar,_Ohio
....Zoar was founded by German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) religious dissenters called the Society of Separatists of Zoar in 1817. It was a communal society, with many German-style structures that have been restored and are part of the Zoar Village State Memorial. There are presently ten restored buildings. According to the Ohio Historical Society, Zoar is an island of Old-World charm in east-central Ohio.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoar,_Ohio#cite_note-4)
The Separatists, or Zoarites, emigrated from the kingdom of Württemberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%BCrttemberg) in southwestern Germany due to religious oppression from the Lutheran church. Leading among their group were some natives of Rottenacker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rottenacker) on the Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube). Having separated from the established church, their theology was based in part on the writings of Jakob Böhme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_B%C3%B6hme). They did not practice baptism or confirmation and did not celebrate religious holidays except for the Sabbath. A central flower garden in Zoar is based on the Book of Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation) with a towering tree in the middle representing Christ and other elements surrounding it representing other allegorical elements.
The leader of the society was named Joseph Bimeler (also known as Joseph Bäumler or Bäumeler, born 1778), a pipemaker as well as teacher from Ulm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulm). His charismatic leadership carried the village through a number of crises.
An early event critical to the success of the colony was the digging of the Ohio and Erie Canal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_and_Erie_Canal). The Zoarites had purchased 5,000 acres (20 km2) of land sight unseen and used loans to pay for it. The loans were to be paid off by 1830. The Society struggled for many years to determine what products and services they could produce in their village to pay off the loans. The state of Ohio required some of the Zoarite land to be used as a right of way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-of-way_%28transportation%29) and offered the Zoarites an opportunity to assist in digging the canals for money. The state gave them a choice of digging it themselves for pay or having the state pay others to dig the canal. The Zoarites then spent several years in the 1820s digging the canal and thus were able to pay off their loans on time with much money to spare.
Bimeler's death on August 31, 1853 led to a slow decline in the cohesion of the village. By 1898, the village voted to disband the communal society and the property was divided among the remaining residents.....
List of Utopian Communities in the US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Utopian_communities
LibForestPaul
07-23-2014, 05:00 PM
Waco, pop
-quite a few domestic terrorists.
LibForestPaul
07-23-2014, 05:01 PM
you will be free when you are ready to die and kill.
PaulConventionWV
07-23-2014, 06:00 PM
I think so too (it was in Guyana, South America)
Oh, my mistake.
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 09:33 AM
Great post.
What would be the first step in your reboot?
I would be interested in having any ideas you have. But as a rough starting idea, I was thinking that we could first identify people who would support such a thing. I have brought this up occasionally and as such have a little list of RPFers who have PMed me over the years that they are very excited about the possibility. If there is enough interest, perhaps we can convince Bryan, the site owner, to set us up a little sub-section where we can talk and build a community.
Then we can find some sort of crowdfunding-type site that we can talk into listing the project on their site, with the variant that number of pledgers is a limiting factor as well as total amount of dollars pledged. Or we could find some other trustworthy and uninterested third party; an escrow service perhaps.
So the first step is to gauge the feasibility by trying to find as many people as possible who are so sick of not having liberty and committed to getting liberty that they are willing to uproot themselves and relocate. Then we can gather together here as like-minded individuals and take stock of the situation.
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 09:36 AM
I agree although I would change the wording from "take over" to "join with the locals to move the county/town closer to liberty." Words matter
Yes, that does sound better, and is a much better description of what we'd be actually doing.
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 09:38 AM
While I love the idea...
I have to wonder, is such a thing possible?
If you take over a town, the County, State and Federal Codes and Law still rule you.
How do you get around that?
Just curious Having a very libertarian town or county would go a very long way to creating the kind of society we want in that town or county. Not all the way, true. But you'd best at least hold a small hill somewhere before you spend too much time making elaborate plans for conquering Europe.
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 09:40 AM
Here is some data for you, counties under 1k pop (2012 est)
Loving County, Texas 71
Kalawao County, Hawaii 90
...
Thanks, Tony! And as a note, I have personally seen with my own eyes both of the smallest: Loving County, out in the flatlands of Texas, and the leper colony on Molokai.
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 09:44 AM
Federal and state law depends to a large extent on local enforcement. If city and county law enforcement are limited in their authority, State and federal law will still be in effect in theory, but not so much in practice. However, if someone complains to a State or Federal agency about something (like labor law violations, for example) it is likely that state or federal agents would come to town and do their thing.
So you couldn't create a fully free town or county but you could move a fair bit in the right direction.
It takes a lot of resources for federal and state governments to enforce federal and state laws, especially if a local government decides to go against them. For instance, marijuana is still illegal on the federal level, meaning Washington and Colorado are technically defying the US government. Obviously, there are limits to what you can do, but there are a great number of local codes and edicts that can be changed or done away with that will greatly improve freedom and won't attract too much attention.
From what I can tell, the Free State Project in NH has done some good things for that state, so the only real issue is getting enough people on board.
Exactly, men!
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 09:47 AM
Unfortunately, Kalawao County is actually the old leper colony. The population is limited to the living original inhabitants and no new inhabitants are allowed. I actually know people on Molokai. I have family there. I am pretty confident that this could be changed, if need be. So that option is not closed to us.
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 10:00 AM
This is in the permian basin. I'm not familiar with Texas geography but it looks like its around 50 miles out of Midland/Odessa area which is the 'boomiest' area for oil jobs in Texas.
There are, indeed, many, many oil wells sprouting out of the flat, flat earth there. And it is flat. As I was driving down the highway on my scouting expedition to check out the county, I had to at one point stop the car and just look all around me at the panorama of astonishing, other-worldly flatness, seemingly stretching out into the infinite. Just total, barren flatness, with the ribbon of straight, perfectly-flat road stretching through it. It was very beautiful, at least I thought so.
Loving is right next-door to the sizable town of Pecos, and yes, it's close to Odessa/Midland.
ZENemy
07-24-2014, 11:02 AM
I would be interested in having any ideas you have. But as a rough starting idea, I was thinking that we could first identify people who would support such a thing. I have brought this up occasionally and as such have a little list of RPFers who have PMed me over the years that they are very excited about the possibility. If there is enough interest, perhaps we can convince Bryan, the site owner, to set us up a little sub-section where we can talk and build a community.
Then we can find some sort of crowdfunding-type site that we can talk into listing the project on their site, with the variant that number of pledgers is a limiting factor as well as total amount of dollars pledged. Or we could find some other trustworthy and uninterested third party; an escrow service perhaps.
So the first step is to gauge the feasibility by trying to find as many people as possible who are so sick of not having liberty and committed to getting liberty that they are willing to uproot themselves and relocate. Then we can gather together here as like-minded individuals and take stock of the situation.
I agree.
I feel that if we are ever to move forward in a somewhat focused effort that we first must collect those that are ready to stop complaining, bitching and telling everyone how it "cant be done" or "its been done before".
Its a good thing that its been done before, good, we have tons of mistakes that we do not have to make by learning from past examples.
I like the idea of starting small...something like moving into and creating the idea of "liberty" apartment complexes all over the country. Maybe like a traveling freestateproject? I know this is not the greatest idea but its just something Ive randomly thought about, I think whats most important is for local like minded people to get together IN REAL LIFE and discuss these idea. Just packing 30 people into a room in REAL life, not in a damn chat window. I feel flesh and blood discussions in one night can do a lot more than years of back and forth on facebook or other social sites.
What I would love to see is people to stop saying "that will never work...you are wasting your time" and start saying "that's gonna be tough but we should make it work and can make it work" I feel that many people miss how important just TALKING about a move like this is. Once we are all talking about it and have agreed that we are going to make it work then NOTHING can stop us.
erowe1
07-24-2014, 11:09 AM
I don't think such a thing is possible, this side of the return of Jesus.
Freedom is an asymptote. We might be able to get closer and closer to it, but we'll never quite be there.
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 12:02 PM
I don't think such a thing is possible, this side of the return of Jesus.
Freedom is an asymptote. We might be able to get closer and closer to it, but we'll never quite be there.
That's all we're trying to do, erowe! Get closer to it! We're not trying to set up some kind of heaven-on-earth, pierce the fifth dimension, nor even to re-found Shangri-La or Atlantis. Our goals are more modest. Don't go all meta-physical on us!
Is this a straight line segment? Or is it a segment of an asymptote?
http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=10011783
It very well may not be a straight line segment. But it will probably do for practical purposes! At least a lot better than this:
http://danwilliamsstuff.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/note-4.png
helmuth_hubener
07-24-2014, 04:36 PM
you will be free when you are ready to die and kill.
Umm, how about when I'm ready to live?
MedgeFTL
07-25-2014, 10:26 AM
Many people have pointed out that the Free State Project is flawed, and it is, everything is flawed, but I have been watching people come up with the idea to move someplace else for years. The VAST majority of these projects fail before the first person moves, but even the ones that have had people move, have had no where near the impact the FSP has had. Before you expend valuable time planning the next failure, please, read this list of past failures, study them, learn from them. This really is a fool's errand.
https://www.facebook.com/MoveHereProject
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 10:33 AM
Many people have pointed out that the Free State Project is flawed, and it is, everything is flawed, but I have been watching people come up with the idea to move someplace else for years. The VAST majority of these projects fail before the first person moves, but even the ones that have had people move, have had no where near the impact the FSP has had. Before you expend valuable time planning the next failure, please, read this list of past failures, study them, learn from them. This really is a fool's errand. So the Shire Society and FreeKeene are failed errands of fools, which now lay smoldering in ruins?
Have you shared your thoughts on this with Ian?
MedgeFTL
07-25-2014, 11:20 AM
If I gave the impression that everything on the list was a total failure, my apologies, but I think we can both agree that the majority of the projects that are unaffiliated with the FSP are incipient or failures. I think the Blue Ridge Liberty Project is an exception, at this point, but they could have done everything they have done in New Hampshire that they have done in Asheville. Can we agree that the vast majority of projects are incipient or failures?
Obviously, some people are not going to listen to my advise, they are going to go on and try it. The purpose of the list is to list their successes and failures as they can be viewed from outside. The successes of the FSP are daunting competition for any competing project.
Moving anywhere for more freedom is a giant commitment, a commitment that 1600 people have made to the FSP. There isn't a project that can claim a tenth of that.
Keith and stuff
07-25-2014, 11:24 AM
Many people have pointed out that the Free State Project is flawed, and it is, everything is flawed, but I have been watching people come up with the idea to move someplace else for years. The VAST majority of these projects fail before the first person moves, but even the ones that have had people move, have had no where near the impact the FSP has had. Before you expend valuable time planning the next failure, please, read this list of past failures, study them, learn from them. This really is a fool's errand.
https://www.facebook.com/MoveHereProject
QFT! There isn't a project outside of New Hampshire that has been even 1% as successful as the Free State Project has been.
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 11:50 AM
I do appreciate your naysaying. As it happens, I am already aware of a great many of the projects you have listed. Also, as it happens, the plan I am proposing to do is completely unaffiliated with and has nothing to do with any of them. So, their experiences do not reflect badly on me. You may want their alleged failures to somehow rub off or tarnish my ideas, thus you come to post them here, but I do not think that they do.
If I gave the impression that everything on the list was a total failure, my apologies Apology accepted! I can only go based on what you wrote, and so since you wrote that I should "read this list of past failures," and that my idea is "a fool's errand," I took your meaning as quite clear. Surely you can understand my "incorrect impression."
The successes of the FSP are daunting competition for any competing project. Is the success of Apple "daunting competition" for Printrbot (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1042541137/printrbot-your-first-3d-printer)?
Moving anywhere for more freedom is a giant commitment, a commitment that 1600 people have made to the FSP. There isn't a project that can claim a tenth of that. I do not think that the FSP can claim that either.
I do think that they can claim a tenth of that.
MedgeFTL
07-25-2014, 01:16 PM
I do appreciate your naysaying. As it happens, I am already aware of a great many of the projects you have listed. Also, as it happens, the plan I am proposing to do is completely unaffiliated with and has nothing to do with any of them. So, their experiences do not reflect badly on me. You may want their alleged failures to somehow rub off or tarnish my ideas, thus you come to post them here, but I do not think that they do.
I WANT all other projects to be a success, but they are generally not. One of the reasons they are not is the competition for movers. In most cases, one can only be a member of one project at a time, and moving is costly. That is why I believe your and all other projects not affiliated with the FSP to be fool's errands. I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again, but on this issue, I am among the top .00001% (certainly .0001%) on this topic and feel comfortable in saying that yours and most competing projects will fail. Good luck, I will buy in if you succeed, but my advice is to just put away your complaints about the FSP, as I have, and move.
Apology accepted! I can only go based on what you wrote, and so since you wrote that I should "read this list of past failures," and that my idea is "a fool's errand," I took your meaning as quite clear. Surely you can understand my "incorrect impression."
Again, I am sorry for the confusion. I am saying that most projects on the list are failures and I am predicting the same for yours, but I will be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong, although likely jealous that you didn't do it in NH. If you are sufficiently more successful than the FSP, in my estimation, I will move for your project.
Is the success of Apple "daunting competition" for Printrbot (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1042541137/printrbot-your-first-3d-printer)?
I suspect they appeal to a different group of people, so no. The FSP appeals to a very wide group of liberty lovers.
I do not think that the FSP can claim that either.
I do think that they can claim a tenth of that.
Are you claiming that the FSP is overstating its mover number by a wide margin? Certainly people have moved out, that have not been recorded, but we have had plenty of people move that never signed up because they don't like lists or something. I live here everyday. I see the Porcs that are involved at the State House, in media, in civ dis, locally and the ones that don't do much at all. I think 1600 is a pretty fair number of people that have moved here because of the FSP. I don't care if they signed up.
A few dozen more people moving to Grafton would truly tip the scales there. Go visit. If you want to 'take over' a town, Grafton fits your bill and is much easier than getting 1000 people to move.
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 01:42 PM
although likely jealous that you didn't do it in NH. Who says we won't end up in New Hampshire? Where did I say that? Where did I rule that out?
Just because Keith sicced you down here to rain on my parade doesn't mean I'm trying to rain on yours.
MedgeFTL
07-25-2014, 02:56 PM
Who says we won't end up in New Hampshire? Where did I say that? Where did I rule that out?
Just because Keith sicced you down here to rain on my parade doesn't mean I'm trying to rain on yours.
I can't honestly remember how I got to this page. That is frightening to me. It was just this morning!
In any event, I care about people and I know what a huge cost it is to move. So, I put together my little list on Facebook to try to educate folks. I predict far better results from a move to NH than other places, if you do pick someplace else, make it awesome and warm, I need a winter home ;).
BTW, this is one of our favorite topics on FTL. I'd love for you to call in with different ideas. We never get to discuss this, because we are such zealots for the FSP that no one will talk to us about the problems with the FSP or how one can do it better.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/24/real_estate/town-for-sale/index.html
For sale: Town of Aladdin, Wyo., for $1.5 million
MedgeFTL
07-25-2014, 03:12 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/24/real_estate/town-for-sale/index.html
For sale: Town of Aladdin, Wyo., for $1.5 million
Wyoming is a Home Rule state and that is good, but their Home Rule law is weak and has essentially been gutted.
http://trib.com/opinion/editorial/wyo-should-re-examine-application-of-home-rule/article_a4df2db8-5a9c-54a3-8192-bf920f321787.html
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 03:13 PM
BTW, this is one of our favorite topics on FTL. I'd love for you to call in with different ideas. We never get to discuss this, because we are such zealots for the FSP that no one will talk to us about the problems with the FSP or how one can do it better.That's cool, maybe I will. I do enjoy FTL occasionally and I am very, very impressed with what you guys have accomplished with that.
I think that Grafton, NH is a terrific idea with a lot of potential. I personally would consider it a top candidate for a plan like this. Perhaps the top candidate. I can't think of a better one at the moment anyway.
The first task is to gauge interest. This may be a no-go from the get-go. There may not be enough people willing to do it, much less serious, respectable people willing to do it. In that case, I shrug and shelve it.
if you do pick someplace else, make it awesome and warm, I need a winter home ;). Kalaupapa is calling....
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/ccrbumblebee/Smileys/hulasmiley.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/ccrbumblebee/Smileys/hulasmiley.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/ccrbumblebee/Smileys/hulasmiley.gif
Keith and stuff
07-25-2014, 03:21 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/24/real_estate/town-for-sale/index.html
For sale: Town of Aladdin, Wyo., for $1.5 million
It is just 30 acres. The MSM loves to lie about this!
MedgeFTL
07-25-2014, 03:23 PM
That's cool, maybe I will. I do enjoy FTL occasionally and I am very, very impressed with what you guys have accomplished with that.
I think that Grafton, NH is a terrific idea with a lot of potential. I personally would consider it a top candidate for a plan like this. Perhaps the top candidate. I can't think of a better one at the moment anyway.
The first task is to gauge interest. This may be a no-go from the get-go. There may not be enough people willing to do it, much less serious, respectable people willing to do it. In that case, I shrug and shelve it.
Kalaupapa is calling....
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/ccrbumblebee/Smileys/hulasmiley.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/ccrbumblebee/Smileys/hulasmiley.gifhttp://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j173/ccrbumblebee/Smileys/hulasmiley.gif
There is nothing to shelve with Grafton. The activists there are numerous and busy. Just being there you will at the very least see what it takes to be successful elsewhere. Bring people with you if you can, sure, but go visit for a week. Someone will gladly put you up. It is amazing what they are doing there. If you want abuse from statists, Keene is just an hour or so away.
I thought someone said Kalaupapa is off-limits. Is that not so?
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 03:34 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-owJ3XtF_Rf4/U74TjoL36RI/AAAAAAAAJCs/xdhv5Wpohi8/s1600/DSC_0608-001.JPG
Wow, thanks, Thor! I have actually been to Aladdin! Maybe I'll go back again and check things out. Certainly if there's interest I could. It's a very small place.
And I know a bunch of Free State Wyomingers and others in the area with houses and/or land nearby.
Here's the Street View of it:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Aladdin,+WY+82710/@44.639818,-104.182866,3a,75y,308.33h,79.61t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srrjx_h2UMQ9FtIKyBmisBA!2e0!4m7 !1m4!3m3!1s0x5332f49fdf519fc1:0xd8399ce81694dfd3!2 sAladdin,+WY+82710!3b1!3m1!1s0x5332f49fdf519fc1:0x d8399ce81694dfd3!6m1!1e1
Thoughts?
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 03:35 PM
Wyoming is a Home Rule state and that is good, but their Home Rule law is weak and has essentially been gutted.
http://trib.com/opinion/editorial/wyo-should-re-examine-application-of-home-rule/article_a4df2db8-5a9c-54a3-8192-bf920f321787.html
Interesting... I had no idea about this, and I was living there. You do keep up on things! Thanks for the info. Sharing stuff like this is very productive.
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 03:41 PM
There is nothing to shelve with Grafton. The activists there are numerous and busy. Just being there you will at the very least see what it takes to be successful elsewhere. Bring people with you if you can, sure, but go visit for a week. Someone will gladly put you up. It is amazing what they are doing there. If you want abuse from statists, Keene is just an hour or so away. That does sound good!
I thought someone said Kalaupapa is off-limits. Is that not so? Well, limits can change (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?456305-Creating-a-Free-Town-or-County&p=5598110&viewfull=1#post5598110). They most certainly will change eventually (relatively soon), because the people living there are getting up there in age. It's not an issue right now since they are still alive and no one else is clamoring to live there.
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 03:43 PM
Oh, and I hung out in Keene. Everyone was very hospitable. I wasn't abused once!
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 04:12 PM
I have actually been to Aladdin! I'm starting to doubt myself now. I may have just driven through Alva and not made it as far as Aladdin; I can't remember for sure.
The fireworks show at Devil's Tower was great, though. Just a bunch of old duffers lighting them off. And they'd get distracted watching them, so then there were long gaps in between bursts while they lit some up again.
Oh, and they had a boy about 10 years old helping them light them (not too concerned about safety regs at Devil's Tower, Wyoming, thank goodness) and when he'd light one, he'd stand there all ready, kind of tense, and then as soon as it went off he'd jump into the air! Boom!
And that was just the "official" show. The other cool thing was that there was probably approximately as much artillery of the unofficial variety. Everyone had brought fireworks, it seemed; big fireworks, fireworks just as cool as the official ones. And they lit them off before and after the show whenever they wanted. That's what a fireworks celebration should be! An actual atmosphere of freedom and fun, not a controlled, centralized, sterilized, tax-funded presentation with all mere citizens prohibited from lighting off their own.
Keith and stuff
07-25-2014, 04:18 PM
I have also been to Aladdin and even climbed Devil's Tower. Well, I didn't make it to the top but you have to contact the government ahead of time and get legal permission to climb it. I don't do that. I love rock climbing in WY, SD, IL or NH even. I never get government permission so I cannot go all the way up Devil's Tower :( Thankfully, I don't have that problem in NH ;)
helmuth_hubener
07-25-2014, 04:56 PM
I have also been to Aladdin and even climbed Devil's Tower. Well, I didn't make it to the top but you have to contact the government ahead of time and get legal permission to climb it. I don't do that. I love rock climbing in WY, SD, IL or NH even. I never get government permission so I cannot go all the way up Devil's Tower :( Thankfully, I don't have that problem in NH ;)
I may or may not have climbed up Mt. Rushmore (I admit nothing!) so I could stand on top of Abe Lincoln's ugly head and spit on it. Security is not tight. They do have a guard building up there, though.
Keith and stuff
07-25-2014, 04:59 PM
I may or may not have climbed up Mt. Rushmore (I admit nothing!) so I could stand on top of Abe Lincoln's ugly head and spit on it. Security is not tight. They do have a guard building up there, though.
You likely didn't climb all the way up Mt. Rushmore :(
Keith and stuff
07-25-2014, 05:48 PM
Silly comment deleted. To make up for the silly comment, enjoy this photo.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/files/2012/12/Beautifull-cat-cats-14749885-1600-1200.jpg
helmuth_hubener
07-26-2014, 12:55 PM
So does anyone else have some place they love and think would be a likely candidate?
Keith and stuff
07-26-2014, 01:16 PM
Maybe rural Alaska in the Bush. There are places without even roads. Check out the TV show Alaska State Troopers. If the Alaska State Police were eliminated, a lot of those Bush communities would be pretty free.
pcosmar
07-26-2014, 02:22 PM
So does anyone else have some place they love and think would be a likely candidate?
Yes,, but I won't publicize it.
mad cow
07-26-2014, 03:14 PM
Here is some data for you, counties under 1k pop (2012 est)
Loving County, Texas 71
Kalawao County, Hawaii 90
King County, Texas 276
Kenedy County, Texas 431
Arthur County, Nebraska 486
McPherson County, Nebraska 509
Petroleum County, Montana 511
Blaine County, Nebraska 514
Loup County, Nebraska 589
Borden County, Texas 616
Grant County, Nebraska 629
Yakutat City and Borough, Alaska 668
Thomas County, Nebraska 676
San Juan County, Colorado 690
Harding County, New Mexico 707
Mineral County, Colorado 709
McMullen County, Texas 726
Hooker County, Nebraska 727
Treasure County, Montana 736
Slope County, North Dakota 758
Banner County, Nebraska 760
Logan County, Nebraska 765
Esmeralda County, Nevada 775
Keya Paha County, Nebraska 804
Wheeler County, Nebraska 805
Hinsdale County, Colorado 810
Golden Valley County, Montana 839
Kent County, Texas 839
Roberts County, Texas 854
Clark County, Idaho 869
Billings County, North Dakota 905
Terrell County, Texas 917
Hayes County, Nebraska 953
Skagway Municipality, Alaska 959
Bristol Bay Borough, Alaska 991
Yakutat,larger than Connecticut and Rhode Island combined,is inaccessible by either road or rail.The only way in or out is by boat or plane.
I have been there twice,on a commercial fishing boat,I still have a hoody with Sitka Sound Seafoods-Yakutat,Alaska on it.
Tywysog Cymru
07-26-2014, 03:22 PM
is inaccessible by either road or rail.
That means it's perfect for Libertarians!
RonPaulIsGreat
07-26-2014, 04:13 PM
I think libertarians need to think in the 3rd dimension. If you build underground and control the entry points, then the law beyond the gates no longer applies.
We must tunnel!!!.
helmuth_hubener
07-28-2014, 08:44 AM
That means it's perfect for Libertarians!
Hmmm.....
Keith and stuff
07-28-2014, 09:14 AM
I think libertarians need to think in the 3rd dimension. If you build underground and control the entry points, then the law beyond the gates no longer applies.
We must tunnel!!!.
That does not work. The locals tried in during Vietnam and the US government hunted them down and killed them. Some underground railroad locations were raided. The underground tunnels between the US and Mexican border are hunted down and destroyed. The Israel government is destroying the underground tunnels over there. Big governments hate tunnels.
Hobbit home destroyed. http://www.off-grid.net/2013/08/14/hobbit-home-destroyed/
You could buy a former bomb shelter or missile storage facility but the government would likely have the plans to it. Plus, if the government got mad, it could just seal up the air events, killing everyone inside.
echo1
07-28-2014, 06:51 PM
As this thread passes into extinction, I thought I'd take a moment to express a couple of thoughts I've had about the OP.
There have been a few brilliant ideas expressed by the membership on how such a community could be set up. I would find it an interesting experience sharing such a community with many of you.
IMHO, none of these brilliant ideas were any better than the founding principles our country was supposedly built on. Rather than finding a new location, I would encourage people to take back government at the local level. This is something that can be done.
Did your Mayor just have an 80 year old man arrested for asking him to speak up? You can have that Mayor out of office and in jail pretty darn quick. If we want it.
At the local level, we can have Agenda 21 policies removed from Codes and Ordinances. At the local level, we can give back property rights to the property owners. Let local business' run without local government interference.
It requires no more energy to fix the existing problem than it does to create a whole new community.
Let's fix what we have...that's my point I think.
This has been discussed before. I want to bring it up again and see how much interest there still is.
If there are about 1,000 liberty-lovers willing to relocate, we could all relocate to a town or county of population 1,000 or so and take over.
Who would be interested and willing to do such a thing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leith,_North_Dakota
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 08:48 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leith,_North_Dakota Why is it that some of you want to associate me with unsavory people? People with which I have nothing to do? What is the purpose of that?
NorthCarolinaLiberty
07-29-2014, 08:57 AM
Why is it that some of you want to associate me with unsavory people? People with which I have nothing to do? What is the purpose of that?
PRB's purpose here is trolling. He has been a liberal troll right from the start. Just take a look at his posting history, including the thread where you and I had a conversation about him. He gets another neg rep from me. I recommend a neg rep party for him.
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 09:01 AM
As this thread passes into extinction, I thought I'd take a moment to express a couple of thoughts I've had about the OP.
Thanks! We're just getting started, though!
There have been a few brilliant ideas expressed by the membership on how such a community could be set up. I would find it an interesting experience sharing such a community with many of you. True. I agree.
IMHO, none of these brilliant ideas were any better than the founding principles our country was supposedly built on. I haven't seen anyone express anything about principles like this. We are, in fact, working to implement the exact same principles: liberty, freedom, and independence. The same principles as the founders. The Spirit of '76, if you will.
We are seeking to apply those principles effectively to our situation. That is a different situation than the founders found themselves in. Tactical innovation is most certainly called for. The innovative and the determined will always win the day.
Rather than finding a new location, I would encourage people to take back government at the local level. This is something that can be done. Is it? I am not so sure as you. I would want proof. I am interested in things that work, that succeed. And my standard for success in this case is pretty high -- not unreasonably high, but higher than what I believe I can get by trying to "take back" my local government.
Did your Mayor just have an 80 year old man arrested for asking him to speak up? You can have that Mayor out of office and in jail pretty darn quick. If we want it. I really do not think I can. I do not have that kind of power. Maybe if I devoted my life to it for the next year. But I don't want to do that. And I don't really see how it would solve anything. The next guy will be not much better. Nothing will truly change.
At the local level, we can have Agenda 21 policies removed from Codes and Ordinances. At the local level, we can give back property rights to the property owners. Let local business' run without local government interference. These are enormous projects. All of these would be made much easier with a majority backing them. Don't you think?
It requires no more energy to fix the existing problem than it does to create a whole new community. I think that forming a new community from scratch is too ambitious and not realistic. I propose something much more normal: move into an existing town. Act normal. Go about life. But bring along with you your strong political belief in liberty.
Let's fix what we have...that's my point I think. I think that the geographical concentration tactic is a very interesting and potentially effective method to do exactly what you are wanting to do. Why go it alone when you can have backup? Why lose, when you can win?
Keith and stuff
07-29-2014, 10:36 AM
Why is it that some of you want to associate me with unsavory people? People with which I have nothing to do? What is the purpose of that?
Both that idea and your idea were originally stated as taking over a local government by bringing in a group of outsiders to out vote the existing population. My biggest problem with your idea was that trying to take over a group of people in such a way isn't moral or likely to succeeded, IMO. For example, there is talk of removing the company charter for that town if even people move in to take over by force. Seems like a reasonable way to react to a bunch of people with guns moving into a town to take it over by force.
I think you changed the idea to do like what is happening in Grafton, NH. It isn't a take over effort there but because it once appeared to be, there is still some push back. Plus obviously the expected push back from people working for the government, people with family members working for the government, liberals, Democrats RINOs and so on. But IMO, a take over effort maybe even should be opposed by locals on principle. States can remove company charters for towns and counties if they want to do so.
The FSP was never, ever about taking over or overwhelming the population with numbers. But because in a separate paper that predates the FSP, the person that eventually founded the FSP used the words take over, the MSM still to this day lies about the FSP calling it a take over... So you might want to move this thread to Hot Topic or have it deleted completely. Or maybe just ask everyone to edit their posts to remove the language. I'll do it if you do it ;) Because this very thread, especially what you types in it, may haunt your project, if it gets off the group, for many, many years. Low informed people are not well informed. They make up the majority of voters and I don't want to see the people that might join your project have to face extra, unneeded prejudice.
Why is it that some of you want to associate me with unsavory people? People with which I have nothing to do? What is the purpose of that?
what you say?
PRB's purpose here is trolling. He has been a liberal troll right from the start. Just take a look at his posting history, including the thread where you and I had a conversation about him. He gets another neg rep from me. I recommend a neg rep party for him.
what about my posting history makes me a liberal?
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 11:25 AM
what you say? I am saying: what is the purpose of your post?
I am saying: what is the purpose of your post?
I heard of a town which people tried to "take over due to a small population, for their own political purpose" so I posted that.
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 11:53 AM
Thanks.
You're too late, though. Keith already tried smearing me by association to these neo-Nazis. And then to the bizarre and disturbing events of Jonestown by replying to 56k. You have to get up pretty early in the morning to beat Keith to something like this. :)
Keith and stuff
07-29-2014, 11:58 AM
Thanks.
You're too late, though. Keith already tried smearing me by association to these neo-Nazis. And then to the bizarre and disturbing events of Jonestown by replying to 56k. You have to get up pretty early in the morning to beat Keith to something like this. :)
I'm sorry. I'm not trying to smear you. Saying take over was a smear that you put on yourself. I was trying to show you why it is a smear. That those neo-Nazis did was try to take over a small town. It backfired and they went to jail. Now the town is thinking of ending it's corporate charter to make sure that it will be impossible for outsiders with guns to take them over.
If you want, I will ask a moderator to delete my reply to Jonestown. I honestly didn't know what the person was talking about. There have been so many failed take over ideas, it is hard to keep up with all of them :D
Thankfully you haven't used your real name in relation to any of this. Still, by calling it a take over in your first post, you are still swearing the idea, IMO.
Keith and stuff
07-29-2014, 12:00 PM
I heard of a town which people tried to "take over due to a small population, for their own political purpose" so I posted that.
Seems like a rational reason to post it, IMO.
I'm sorry. I'm not trying to smear you. Saying take over was a smear that you put on yourself. I was trying to show you why it is a smear. That those neo-Nazis did was try to take over a small town. It backfired and they went to jail. Now the town is thinking of ending it's corporate charter to make sure that it will be impossible for outsiders with guns to take them over.
If you want, I will ask a moderator to delete my reply to Jonestown. I honestly didn't know what the person was talking about. There have been so many failed take over ideas, it is hard to keep up with all of them :D
Thankfully you haven't used your real name in relation to any of this. Still, by calling it a take over in your first post, you are still swearing the idea, IMO.
what did they go to jail for? that I was never clear on.
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 12:14 PM
I'm sorry. Hey, no hard feelings!
I'm not trying to smear you. Saying take over was a smear that you put on yourself. I was trying to show you why it is a smear. Well then why not just say that, like TonySutton did? Come on, you and I have been on these forums a long time. I know that your number 1 priority is convincing people to move to New Hampshire. My thread seemed like it might constitute a threat to that agenda. It's only fair (and predictable) that you would descend on it to attack it however you could. No hard feelings; no problem. I just prefer that the thread keep moving in a more productive direction, instead of Koolaid and neo-Nazis.
That those neo-Nazis did was try to take over a small town. It backfired and they went to jail. Now the town is thinking of ending it's corporate charter to make sure that it will be impossible for outsiders with guns to take them over.
1. They were neo-Nazis
2. They were crazy
3. They were living in non-first-world conditions -- no plumbing, etc.
4. These were very marginal people -- even by the standards of other neo-Nazis!
They were just weird, marginal people. Same thing with Zach Bass.
I am not interested in doing some strange, bizarre, kooky thing. I am not interested in setting up hippy camp. Even some of the stuff in Keene -- the communal house where people can sleep on the couch or whatever -- is a bit too much like hippy camp for me.
There are high-quality, successful people who believe in libertarian ideas. Getting together and implementing a geographical concentration strategy, wherein we join with the locals to move the county or town closer to liberty, is a reasonable idea. So, we are discussing it. It's worth discussing.
Thankfully you haven't used your real name in relation to any of this. Still, by calling it a take over in your first post, you are still smearing the idea, IMO.
Taking over is exactly what the FSP is doing, exactly what the FSP is all about. If you are that hung up about verbiage, though, perhaps other lesser persons will be, too. I will change my first post.
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 12:18 PM
what did they go to jail for? that I was never clear on. For going out on the town waving their rifles around and shouting. Looking like they were out to make trouble. They were also drunk, I believe.
This is just a crazy, crazy guy, and his most crazy, loony friends. No semi-normal person would want to associate with him. Even other neo-Nazis don't want to associate with him.
For going out on the town waving their rifles around and shouting. Looking like they were out to make trouble. They were also drunk, I believe.
This is just a crazy, crazy guy, and his most crazy, loony friends. No semi-normal person would want to associate with him. Even other neo-Nazis don't want to associate with him.
crazy as they may be, they never hurt anybody, did they? you don't need to associate with them, but unless they committed any actual crimes, don't they deserve SOME sympathy for being the victims of overreaching government?
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 12:26 PM
crazy as they may be, they never hurt anybody, did they? you don't need to associate with them, but unless they committed any actual crimes, don't they deserve SOME sympathy for being the victims of overreaching government? I have only so much sympathy to go around.
Keith and stuff
07-29-2014, 12:27 PM
what did they go to jail for? that I was never clear on.
It looks like several small things. Terrorizing was a term that was used. There is a good chance they went to jail because they were crazy people that wanted to move to a small town to take it over and that highly pissed off the locals. So the locals made sure the people went to jail. I suspect many people will gladly break the law to stop outsiders from taking over a town that they consider to be their town, especially in a tightly nit small community where new movers are generally vetted and not trusted by the locals anyway.
Even in Grafton, NH where the movers have explained over and over again that the new movers aren't in anyway trying to take over (because they aren't), there have been issues. For example, several people were investigated for voter fraud (which obviously they didn't commit) to waste time and scare people. It wasted a lot of time. There was also an effort to create zoning laws but that too failed.
Now imaging if the new movers with the expressed goal of taking over move to a small country town with a shrinking population and the new movers like to get drunk, frequently open carry and have what many people consider extreme ideas... Even if race wasn't an issue, it will likely still get many in the town and near-by towns to organize against them.
I have only so much sympathy to go around.
can't argue with that. in your case, you have your own fight.
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 12:28 PM
Pericles was trying to set up a Free Community out in West Texas a while back. Was anyone involved? Pericles, could you give us the detailed story on how things played out with that? I think it would be very useful.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?367289-Free-Community-Project/
Keith and stuff
07-29-2014, 12:30 PM
crazy as they may be, they never hurt anybody, did they? you don't need to associate with them, but unless they committed any actual crimes, don't they deserve SOME sympathy for being the victims of overreaching government?
The overreaching government of the community they moved to is a common and expected human reaction. They should have known they were be hated and people what try to do what it takes to control them via the government and other methods. You just don't try to take people over. it causes nothing but problems.
It looks like several small things. Terrorizing was a term that was used. There is a good chance they went to jail because they were crazy people that wanted to move to a small town to take it over and that highly pissed off the locals. So the locals made sure the people went to jail. I suspect many people will gladly break the law to stop outsiders from taking over a town that they consider to be their town, especially in a tightly nit small community where new movers are generally vetted and not trusted by the locals anyway.
Even in Grafton, NH where the movers have explained over and over again that the new movers aren't in anyway trying to take over (because they aren't), there have been issues. For example, several people were investigated for voter fraud (which obviously they didn't commit) to waste time and scare people. It wasted a lot of time. There was also an effort to create zoning laws but that too failed.
Now imaging if the new movers with the expressed goal of taking over move to a small country town with a shrinking population and the new movers like to get drunk, frequently open carry and have what many people consider extreme ideas... Even if race wasn't an issue, it will likely still get many in the town and near-by towns to organize against them.
the power of local communities :) it doesn't surprise me at all if it was some type of entrapment plus crazy loonies being provoked into small petty crimes.
I don't know how powerful Detroit would be to stop outsiders though :P
NorthCarolinaLiberty
07-29-2014, 12:54 PM
what about my posting history makes me a liberal?
Playing dumb again. Right on cue. At least you didn't deny being a troll, but I'll wait on that in your next post.
Keith and stuff
07-29-2014, 12:55 PM
Hey, no hard feelings!
Taking over is exactly what the FSP is doing, exactly what the FSP is all about. If you are that hung up about verbiage, though, perhaps other lesser persons will be, too. I will change my first post.
The FSP has never been about taking over. In fact, idea that it could be about that is absurd. How could 20,000 people take over 1.3+ million people? It a fight, all 20,000 would be killed. In the voting booth, there were over 700,000 voters in NH in 2008. How many will there be in 2020? Plus, the law in NH currently (thanks to a recent judicial ruling) anyone that is able to vote in any of the 50 states also able to vote in NH. All you have to do is be in NH on election day and swear that you intend to move to NH. You can change your mind the next day. But anyway, the FSP isn't even out just trying to recruit people that are allowed to vote, even. Heck, some free staters don't vote or very rarely vote anyone.
The whole idea of the Free State Project is for liberty activists to do what they want here. Be it media creation, jury rights, charity to help poor people so they have to rely so much on government, peace religious practices, prepping and so on. Here is the Statement of Intent that free staters agree to, if there is any confusion.
I hereby state my solemn intent to move to the State of New Hampshire within 5 years after 20,000 Participants have signed up. Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of individuals' life, liberty, and property.
So the FSP is about trying to find 20,000 people to sign up and move to NH. Once the people move to NH, it's up to them on what they do. The FSP is about PorcFest and Liberty Forum and other things to get the 20,000 signers. It isn't a political organization. In is a charity organization designed to help find 20,000 liberty people to improve their lives by moving to the best state with the highest quality of life in the nation. If the FSP had anything to do with what you said, the IRS wouldn't consider it a charity.
helmuth_hubener
07-29-2014, 02:33 PM
The FSP has never been about taking over. Right. :rolleyes:
It is about joining with the locals to move things closer to liberty, exactly as my proposed project is.
How could 20,000 people take over 1.3+ million people? You answer your own question later in your post.
PaulConventionWV
07-29-2014, 03:15 PM
Thanks.
You're too late, though. Keith already tried smearing me by association to these neo-Nazis. And then to the bizarre and disturbing events of Jonestown by replying to 56k. You have to get up pretty early in the morning to beat Keith to something like this. :)
It also should not be neglected to mention that Jonestown was not a mass suicide, but a mass murder. Half the population were children. They were killed first, and many of the grown-ups were forced to take the poison, and some were shot. Some simply gave up hope when all of the children died and decided it would be best to end their lives as well. It was a sad story and has absolutely nothing to do with liberty.
Keith and stuff
07-29-2014, 03:22 PM
If anyone is interesting to talking to people that having actually moved to a small town for more liberty. If you want to find out what it is like. To find out the positives and the negatives... there is good news for you!
The place where something somewhat like this is currently happening is about to have it's annual camping festival designed to introduce people to the town. Welcome to the seventh annual Burning Porcupine Festival.
2014 Burning Porcupine Festival: August 4–10 in Grafton, NH
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?456724-2014-Burning-Porcupine-Festival-August-4%9610-in-Grafton-NH
NorthCarolinaLiberty
07-29-2014, 04:05 PM
I've read the whole thread. Seems to me that people like Keith and Helmuth have quite the same approach, at least in the context of the rest of the world. There are some differences in approach and--for lack of a better word--marketing, but differences like that often lead to a stronger whole.
Seems to me that the real difference is liberty thinking versus the prejudiced attacks, as expressed by the knuckleheadedness of RPF's two resident trolls, 56K and PRB. They'll compare you to the most extreme examples just for emotional effect. The extreme in the media often does the same thing in this now smaller world. This is where education comes into play to combat simple prejudice.
helmuth_hubener
07-30-2014, 08:18 AM
If anyone is interesting to talking to people that having actually moved to a small town for more liberty. If you want to find out what it is like. To find out the positives and the negatives... there is good news for you!
The place where something somewhat like this is currently happening is about to have it's annual camping festival designed to introduce people to the town. Welcome to the seventh annual Burning Porcupine Festival.
2014 Burning Porcupine Festival: August 4–10 in Grafton, NH
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?456724-2014-Burning-Porcupine-Festival-August-4%9610-in-Grafton-NH Keith, are you going to this?
If not, is there anyone nearby who might consider dropping by?
I agree with Keith that this is an excellent opportunity to pick the brains of some people with some invaluable real-life experience.
helmuth_hubener
07-30-2014, 08:20 AM
I've read the whole thread. Seems to me that people like Keith and Helmuth have quite the same approach, at least in the context of the rest of the world. Yeah, Keith and I are pretty similar.
Keith and stuff
07-30-2014, 05:28 PM
Keith, are you going to this?
If not, is there anyone nearby who might consider dropping by?
I agree with Keith that this is an excellent opportunity to pick the brains of some people with some invaluable real-life experience.
2014 Burning Porcupine Festival: August 4–10 in Grafton, NH
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?456724-2014-Burning-Porcupine-Festival-August-4%9610-in-Grafton-NH
I've been before but am not sure if I can make it this year. I recommend it. Some of the same folks attend Liberty Forum. For a couple years in a row, they have had a Grafton (or even 2) sites in the main area of PorcFest that usually 2 to 4 Grafton folks are sitting out with facts on Grafton, the listing of properties for sale, details on Burning Porcupine and stuff like that.
helmuth_hubener
07-31-2014, 08:14 AM
Thanks, Keith. If that changes and you are able to make it, let us know. We could send you with a list a questions! Do you do videos?
Pericles
07-31-2014, 09:36 AM
Pericles was trying to set up a Free Community out in West Texas a while back. Was anyone involved? Pericles, could you give us the detailed story on how things played out with that? I think it would be very useful.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?367289-Free-Community-Project/
A few comments based on experience-
First, is determining the objective of the project (A) is this a prepper retreat, so in addition to political and economic freedom, a self sustaining community or collection of habitations is the goal (B) creating an environment with the minimal amount of government at any level and not trying to accomplish anything other that showing that freedom works (C) some other goal. This affects to a great extent what you will need in either capital or fellow travelers on the journey.
You will get a great deal of interest in what you are doing and any number of people who will tell you how to do it better and not do any of the work involved. Ignore them.
The prepper retreat or group approach needs an environment where property is in parcels for individual purchase or rent. The more gradual shift toward economic freedom requires capital - starting a business that can be operated in that location, which will provide a living for fellow travelers with cause the population shift which results in votes for eliminating local regulation - which is why such a project only has a reasonable success in states that feature local home rule to a great extent.
helmuth_hubener
08-01-2014, 03:40 PM
Thank you so much, Pericles! I really appreciate your wisdom.
Would you say that your project was/is a success? What do you think was the key to its success?
I am definitely seeking objective (B). It is a very good idea, as you say, to delineate the objective clearly from the beginning, as these objectives you list are very different. For me, give me (B).
helmuth_hubener
08-05-2014, 09:36 AM
Bump!
helmuth_hubener
08-06-2014, 12:39 PM
Here's another town for sale:
The town used as the Hunger Games set for District 12 (http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-henry-river-mill-village).
Pericles
08-06-2014, 12:54 PM
Thank you so much, Pericles! I really appreciate your wisdom.
Would you say that your project was/is a success? What do you think was the key to its success?
I am definitely seeking objective (B). It is a very good idea, as you say, to delineate the objective clearly from the beginning, as these objectives you list are very different. For me, give me (B).
It has to be approached like any other project or business venture. Just posting on the NET, everybody who wants liberty move to X will get another FSP as a result. Raise capital, form corp., and do it. Recapitalize corp. from sales of property / shares to fund expansion.
VoluntaryAmerican
08-22-2014, 09:09 PM
^^^^
He's probably talking about the Jonestown settlement in Africa. In which case, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we're a religious cult...
*puts down voodoo scepter and pentagram box*
... We're not a religious cult?
:(
John F Kennedy III
08-23-2014, 04:45 AM
Here is some data for you, counties under 1k pop (2012 est)
Loving County, Texas 71
Kalawao County, Hawaii 90
King County, Texas 276
Kenedy County, Texas 431
Arthur County, Nebraska 486
McPherson County, Nebraska 509
Petroleum County, Montana 511
Blaine County, Nebraska 514
Loup County, Nebraska 589
Borden County, Texas 616
Grant County, Nebraska 629
Yakutat City and Borough, Alaska 668
Thomas County, Nebraska 676
San Juan County, Colorado 690
Harding County, New Mexico 707
Mineral County, Colorado 709
McMullen County, Texas 726
Hooker County, Nebraska 727
Treasure County, Montana 736
Slope County, North Dakota 758
Banner County, Nebraska 760
Logan County, Nebraska 765
Esmeralda County, Nevada 775
Keya Paha County, Nebraska 804
Wheeler County, Nebraska 805
Hinsdale County, Colorado 810
Golden Valley County, Montana 839
Kent County, Texas 839
Roberts County, Texas 854
Clark County, Idaho 869
Billings County, North Dakota 905
Terrell County, Texas 917
Hayes County, Nebraska 953
Skagway Municipality, Alaska 959
Bristol Bay Borough, Alaska 991
COLORADO.
Demigod
08-23-2014, 05:16 AM
Pericles is the only one who makes sense.You can't make a community based on philosophical ideas only.You need jobs,you need a location and you have to watch out the crowd you attract.Making a community in some Alaskan wilderness without any roads or rail makes no sense unless you can digest wood or are completely ok living in 19 century conditions .
The region where you settle has to either have natural resources or at least be near trading routes. Who comes into the city is also very important because you can bet your ass that there will be informants and provocateurs so attracting normal people is a must.
Keith and stuff
08-23-2014, 08:07 AM
Pericles is the only one who makes sense.You can't make a community based on philosophical ideas only.You need jobs,you need a location and you have to watch out the crowd you attract.
That's one of the main reasons the FSP selected NH instead of WY or MT. There just isn't a large or diverse enough job market in either of those states to attract a broad spectrum of liberty activists. The point has even been proven since copycat groups selected WY and MT. MT had maybe a dozen movers. WY had at several dozen. NH has had well over 1,000 movers and keeps going strong.
helmuth_hubener
08-26-2014, 02:39 PM
COLORADO.
Where in Colorado?
helmuth_hubener
08-26-2014, 02:47 PM
Pericles is the only one who makes sense.You can't make a community based on philosophical ideas only.You need jobs,you need a location and you have to watch out the crowd you attract.Making a community in some Alaskan wilderness without any roads or rail makes no sense unless you can digest wood or are completely ok living in 19 century conditions .
The region where you settle has to either have natural resources or at least be near trading routes. Who comes into the city is also very important because you can bet your ass that there will be informants and provocateurs so attracting normal people is a must.
I like to think that I make sense as well. I am less ambitious than Pericles (or differently-ambitious). My proposed project is not to build a new community (as his is). I have confused the issue by following up on and posting a couple towns for sale, but really I am just thinking we could move a sufficient number of people to a low-population jurisdiction and once there join with the locals to move the town or county closer to liberty.
For instance, moving 1,000 people to any of the counties posted by TonySutton. Or to Grafton, NH. Or to some other low-population jurisdiction. We wouldn't have to build a town from scratch. It would just be a simple matter of moving in, in a normal way. Some additional housing would likely be needed to accomodate the population increase. This could be provided by, for instance, mobile homes.
helmuth_hubener
08-26-2014, 02:57 PM
That's one of the main reasons the FSP selected NH instead of WY or MT. There just isn't a large or diverse enough job market in either of those states to attract a broad spectrum of liberty activists. New Hampshire, Montana, and Wyoming, all have approximately equal labor participation rates. Thus, proportional to their populations, they all have equally large job markets. NH has three times as many jobs as Wyoming, and three times as many people competing to get those jobs.
People in NH have the option of commuting two hours every day to Boston, a much larger job market. However, people in Wyoming have the option of commuting one hour every day to Salt Lake, or one hour and fifteen minutes every day to Denver. So at least for NH vs. WY, it's a wash.
helmuth_hubener
08-26-2014, 02:59 PM
Brainstorm: What would be a business that would stand to gain the most from the existence of a libertarian town or county?
helmuth_hubener
09-02-2014, 09:50 AM
Anyone?
Deborah K
09-02-2014, 11:08 AM
Brainstorm: What would be a business that would stand to gain the most from the existence of a libertarian town or county?
I would think going back to basics would help a free town thrive. Like a local grocery market, butcher, mechanic, print shop, hardware, etc.
Tywysog Cymru
09-02-2014, 11:26 AM
Anyone?
Maybe a gun store?
helmuth_hubener
09-09-2014, 05:21 PM
Thanks for the thoughts. Perhaps some sort of amusement park or other entertainment thing.
Bastiat's The Law
09-09-2014, 06:37 PM
Where would the ideal place be?
You're going to have government intrusion on some level every place on the planet, no?
RonPaulIsGreat
09-09-2014, 06:41 PM
Brainstorm: What would be a business that would stand to gain the most from the existence of a libertarian town or county?
I don't think there is a business that necessarily benefits from a libertarian town.
However, i think there are businesses that could be sustainable almost anywhere if the community agreed to support it as the "initial" growth mechanism.
Like, if you wanted to buy cheap property in a rural setting where there are no or few jobs, well, you'd have to import the cash and jobs somehow. The most obvious would be via the internet. So, finding a rural location next to a fiber trunk line, you could then pay for a fiber run to the community. In essence you could then do almost anything internet related. If you just purchased some random property in the sticks with taking that into account you really could not take advantage of internet related employment.
That's probably what I'd do if I really were committed to starting a liberty town.
1. Get national map of FIBER lines.
2. Overlay map of property / land values along map.
3. Over lay map of water resources / land fertility on map.
4. Once location with best mix for the money found, recruit people that could bring a "job" with them, which would be mostly people deriving income from the internet, or people like truck drivers that work like a week then go home for awhile.
5. Get Fiber line installed, start hosting, building websites, whatever to bring in cash flow.
6. Recruit people in the more traditional jobs areas, like an experienced builder, alternative energy installer, etc...
7. Wait for government to come kill us all.
Also, electricity costs vary greatly, in washington state near the hydro electric plants power is like .03 per kilowatt hour, So, if internet / computer related that has to be a factor as well.
Well, I take that back. Strip clubs, sex work, gambling, etc... would benefit from a libertarian town, if the county or state didn't ban it. But I guess I was thinking more traditional employment.
TomtheTinker
09-09-2014, 08:38 PM
Naked ladies growing pot while toating guns all viewable for the public in person and via live stream.
helmuth_hubener
09-10-2014, 10:53 AM
Where would the ideal place be?
You're going to have government intrusion on some level every place on the planet, no?
I don't know that there is one single "ideal" place.
The main hurdle, in my opinion, is not identifying a location into which to move. The main hurdle is in identifying and gathering a sufficient number of libertarian persons willing to move. With a sufficient number of committed, serious movers, I believe there is a large number of small towns in which we could be successful.
Are you interested in such an idea, Bastiat? I mean, you're a little interested or you wouldn't have posted here, but what is your level of interest?
How about the rest of you? Deb? Tywysog? RPIG? Tom?
Deborah K
09-10-2014, 11:38 AM
I don't know that there is one single "ideal" place.
The main hurdle, in my opinion, is not identifying a location into which to move. The main hurdle is in identifying and gathering a sufficient number of libertarian persons willing to move. With a sufficient number of committed, serious movers, I believe there is a large number of small towns in which we could be successful.
Are you interested in such an idea, Bastiat? I mean, you're a little interested or you wouldn't have posted here, but what is your level of interest?
How about the rest of you? Deb? Tywysog? RPIG? Tom?
HH, I started a thread on this very thing last year. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?421907-If-we-could-buy-1000-acres-or-more-who-would-join-us
I'm all for it, and am working toward that goal.
mad cow
09-10-2014, 12:05 PM
I don't know that there is one single "ideal" place.
The main hurdle, in my opinion, is not identifying a location into which to move. The main hurdle is in identifying and gathering a sufficient number of libertarian persons willing to move. With a sufficient number of committed, serious movers, I believe there is a large number of small towns in which we could be successful.
Are you interested in such an idea, Bastiat? I mean, you're a little interested or you wouldn't have posted here, but what is your level of interest?
How about the rest of you? Deb? Tywysog? RPIG? Tom?
I think you are wrong here.Finding like minded libertarian sorts is the easy part,getting them to agree on a location is much harder.
Climate,scenery,proximity to rock/mountainclimbing,hunting/fishing,hiking/camping/backpacking,canoeing/kayaking/whitewater rafting,soil,weather and water conditions conducive to farming and gardening,Distance to shopping,bars and entertainment etc.etc,all have different values for different people,from unimportant to deal-killer.
Deborah K
09-10-2014, 12:10 PM
I think you are wrong here.Finding like minded libertarian sorts is the easy part,getting them to agree on a location is much harder.
Climate,scenery,proximity to rock/mountainclimbing,hunting/fishing,hiking/camping/backpacking,canoeing/kayaking/whitewater rafting,soil,weather and water conditions conducive to farming and gardening,Distance to shopping,bars and entertainment etc.etc,all have different values for different people,from unimportant to deal-killer.
I believe a consensus on a location can be reached if the criteria is spelled out.
Deborah K
09-10-2014, 12:17 PM
Here are some of my criteria:
gun rights
permitting structures
water and natural resource rights
homeschooling
farming/ranching
independent power via turbine; solar; natural gas; biogasification
taxes (if no state tax, how high is property tax?)
federal land
helmuth_hubener
09-11-2014, 01:06 PM
HH, I started a thread on this very thing last year. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?421907-If-we-could-buy-1000-acres-or-more-who-would-join-us
I'm all for it, and am working toward that goal.
Hey, that's terrific! I'll have to read through that thread.
helmuth_hubener
09-11-2014, 01:20 PM
Here is an eloquent presentation of the kind of thing I am envisioning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBtl36UB_sQ
1:00:30
helmuth_hubener
09-17-2014, 08:30 AM
Here is some excellent information about some freedom community projects that have been planned or done in South America, coming to us from sophiaz from https://www.internationalman.com/im-forum/viewthread/2757/
~~~
First the summary, as best I understand it.
#1: LEC in Cafayate, Argentina
LEC (La Estancia de Cafayate) conceived by Doug Casey has sold about 250 of the 360~400 lots in their liberty-oriented expat community in Cafayate, Argentina. They completed the 18-hole golf course and golf clubhouse years ago. Since then they’ve completed a very extensive and modern indoor fitness center, tennis courts, polo fields, horse stables, social club and other amenities. A small 5-star hotel located itself within the community. Depending on how we count, somewhere around 50 homes are built, under construction, or about to be started. A contact in Cafayate tells me about 9 homes are occupied by owners in winter, and about 30 homes occupied in summer. In short, LEC is fully real, and most of what they promised has been delivered. The only major shortcoming is the HOA fees, which increased dramatically rather than fell.
#2: SVF near Talca, Chile
SVF (Sovereign Valley Farms) conceived by Simon Black was a gorgeous looking organic farm property near Talca, Chile. At various times there were supposed to be 36+ to 50 lots on that property sold to liberty-oriented expats. They would not allow anyone to know anything very specific unless you would fly down to Talca and personally inspect the property. I may not remember the number exactly, but somewhere around 5000 individuals and couples flew down to Chile to inspect the property, and according to SVF literature at least 500 people wanted to buy lots. For some reason Simon changed his mind, decided he didn’t want anyone living on the property he showed to thousands of people, and apparently attempted to find an alternate property to accommodate more people on more lots. Or so their PR claimed. Some have claimed that the larger property Simon was thinking of buying for the community was purchased by the GGC folks before Simon made his final decision. For whatever reason, Simon Black apparently nuked all his plans to create an liberty-oriented expat community. I believe his announcement said “temporarily”, but my interpretation was that “temporary” meant the same thing as when Nixon “temporarily” suspended gold backing for the US dollar. Recently someone who claimed to know (and claimed to be involved with SVF somehow back then), that actually Simon didn’t have even 50 offers to purchase when he was claiming he had over 500 offers. That claim may be BS or true, I have no way to know. At any rate, SVF seems to be gone.
#3: FO near Curacavi, Chile
FO (Freedom Orchard) conceived by Jon Cobin is located south and immediately adjacent to the GGC property. They have not received enough investment money to buy the property, begin serious physical development, and sell lots. This has been the status for at least one year now, and perhaps two or three years (not sure).
#4: GGC near Curacavi, Chile
GGC (Galt’s Gulch Chile) conceived by (not sure who, but with Ken Johnson and Jeff Berwick involved) is located north and immediately adjacent to the FO property. Depending on who you believe, GGC owns at least some of the property the claim to own (but possibly in partnership with previous owners, which may have caused some people confusion). GGC started a “founders club” program starting approximately May of 2013 (about 14 months ago) to sell a number of lots to “founders club members” on very interesting terms. They would get 80% to 100% of their money back over 18 months in 3 payments. Apparently the idea was to get enough revenue from founders to build roads and other infrastructure, which would then make the property attractive enough to sell large numbers of lots, repay the founders, and have enough money left over to continue to improve the property, and bootstrap from there. From what I recall, the founders were supposed to converge on GGC in early November of 2013 (about 8 months ago) and choose their lots. Unfortunately, from what I’ve been able to determine, delays in specifying lot boundaries and/or getting government approval has delayed this by at least 8 months so far, and counting. How this impacts their plans to pay back founders on the original schedule (and spend the revenue from founders on infrastructure expansion) is not clear to me, but I would not be surprised if the timing difficulties might interfere with their bootstrap plans.
——-
That’s my summary. That’s what I’ve heard from various sources (including principles or spokespeople at all these efforts). Needless to say, advocates of each place will want to add rosy sounding details, and omit not-so-rosy sounding details, but I have been as objective and balanced here as I can be. And at various times I was considering all these places as a place to buy. I’ve been trying to afford LEC since 2008, I almost certainly would have bought one of those 50 original lots at SVF if they were actually available, I was turned off by FO because they made clear they consider their community to have a religious-right like “anti-abortion” attitude/slant, and I was interested in GGC as an investment (buy the founders club lot, get a refund over 18 months, then sell the lot). I was not interested in FO or GGC for long-term living because they are much too close to a horribly polluted city (just over a ridge that thankfully keeps much of the air-pollution away), and because I prefer warmer weather and desert environment.
——-
Having said all the above as context, what I want to say is the following. Please understand that this is a personal observation, not criticism of these communities.
I would prefer if these and other potential projects were much smaller scale. I’m not sure why they were conceived as such large endeavors. Perhaps they simply were not thoughtful or creative enough to break free from the example provided by the first case, the Doug Casey LEC community at Cafayate, Argentina. As David Galland stated in another thread a few days ago, three of the instigators of LEC are billionaires! THREE of them. And that’s billionaires, not millionaires. Now, that is serious money. And so, the instigators of LEC could easily afford to spend $10 or $20 million to get LEC built out without worrying about revenue or bank accounts. As a result, LEC has been built pretty much as they promised at the beginning. They were easily able to afford it.
However, it does not appear any of the other liberty-oriented expat communities had anywhere near such extraordinary “deep pockets” going into the project. Yet, they all seemed to choose large scale endeavors. Actually, let me modify that a bit. Originally Simon Black seemed to plan for his 1100 acre farm to have about 50 lots/owners. Now THAT was a reasonable scale plan in my opinion, especially if we assume Simon had already purchased the property with his own money (probably $1M ~ $3M), and the property was already a producing farm (which he claimed, and all his photos certainly indicated). However, for some very strange reason, that plan vaporized and some grandiose plan for thousands of owners got substituted.
Now, why do I say all this?
Frankly, it may not matter at this point. The many problems with SVF, FO and GGC may have made the notion of “liberty oriented expat community” an inherently poison idea to anyone who might ever dare entertain such thoughts.
However, if anyone out there ever does entertain such a notion, I encourage them to THINK SMALLER. The very real and substantial economies of scale from such a project can be captured and realized by much smaller endeavors. Frankly, they can be realized on a scale as small as just a few individuals or families. But perhaps the sweet spot is somewhere between 10 and 30 individuals, couples or families. So the original SVF concept wasn’t out of line.
In addition, I advise the KISS principle. Keep it simpler. For example, don’t legally subdivide. The moment legal subdivision is performed, the amount of money spent on property taxes explodes. Now each individual lot is taxed at a high rate, whereas previously the entire property was taxed at a low rate (as farmland or undeveloped or some other more advantageous category). Better to hold the entire property as a single unit, and divide ownership of that single entity in some way. Perhaps that’s what the original SVF idea was… I’m not sure. Some people immediately say, “no, can’t do that, nobody wants to co-own property”... to which my response is twofold. One, tell that to tens of millions of people who live in a condo (in a condo community), where they don’t even own the entire building they live in, much less the land. And two, what liberty-advocate expat really wants to arrange things to purposely maximize the amount of money taken from their own pocket and paid to government?
~~~
This kind of thing is not exactly what I am envisioning -- I am envisioning something more like what Hans Hoppe describes in the lecture I linked just above -- but it does seem to be more along the lines of what most of the rest of you are envisioning. So maybe what I am envisioning needs to change. Maybe people are not interested in simply moving into an established town, but prefer to start their own. I am open to all ideas. Might I ask, though: why? It seems much harder to me to start a new town from scratch, build your underground earthship, drill for water, etc., than to just move into an existing town, pursue a career in a normal fashion, etc.
oyarde
09-17-2014, 08:41 AM
Brainstorm: What would be a business that would stand to gain the most from the existence of a libertarian town or county?
I would go with a combination , gasoline , bait & tackle , liquor, guns and ammo ,hardware .
helmuth_hubener
09-24-2014, 08:31 AM
So, what about some small town in New Hampshire as Keith suggests? Who would be up for moving and making a little libertarian haven?
Keith and stuff
09-24-2014, 10:37 AM
I'm working on this. In the Democratic Primary for governor, there were 3 candidates. The person that took the 2nd most amount of votes is pro-liberty. In the Republican Primary for governor, 2 of the 4 candidates were pro-liberty. I'm looking at comparing the results for all of the NH towns for both of these races. There are already posted results for the 2012 Ron Paul campaign for all of the towns in NH. Ideally, results for all 4 of these candidates will somehow be combined. That should help us see which towns would do better for this type of things.
Ron Paul 2012
http://liberty603.com/maps/view/8
helmuth_hubener
09-24-2014, 11:14 AM
Wow, cool, Keith!
helmuth_hubener
10-14-2014, 12:28 PM
Big Water, Utah had a Libertarian mayor 1986-1994 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Water,_Utah ) and then again in 2001 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willy_Marshall ). The most recent guy: "In keeping with his libertarian principles, repealed his municipal salary. He also cut municipal taxes by 50 percent and attempted to decriminalize marijuana."
Deborah K
10-14-2014, 01:40 PM
So, what about some small town in New Hampshire as Keith suggests? Who would be up for moving and making a little libertarian haven?
I'm up for it, but am looking at Idaho.
invisible
10-14-2014, 10:25 PM
I'm up for it, but am looking at Idaho.
Unless you want to live some place in the state where it's pretty much impossible to make a living, ID is:
Overpriced (real estate)
Overtaxed (real estate)
Subject to emissions testing of vehicles
Difficult to find a good DX QTH
I had considered ID too, but rejected it for the above reasons. Of course, it does look much better if you only compare it to CA.
Carlybee
10-14-2014, 10:35 PM
So, what about some small town in New Hampshire as Keith suggests? Who would be up for moving and making a little libertarian haven?
I'm still interested..not sure where..but had a setback so have had to back burner it for a couple of years.
Carlybee
10-14-2014, 10:41 PM
Brainstorm: What would be a business that would stand to gain the most from the existence of a libertarian town or county?
Sustainable agriculture supplies and equipment.
economics102
10-15-2014, 01:37 AM
freestateproject.org
freecountyproject.org?
economics102
10-15-2014, 01:43 AM
There's always seasteading...
I agree that, if we could only somehow, some way, get a small little island of real liberty (whether physical or metaphorical), we'd have the rest of the country clamoring for similar freedoms in no time. What we need is an American Hong Kong.
I think the only way we might ever achieve this politically is with a broad coalition compromise, where we basically say to the the uber-progressives, "help us create a small island for liberty, and we'll help you create a small island of progressive government, and then we'll both have the incubators and proving grounds we want." Maybe that would be a big enough coalition to wield the political force to make something happen.
helmuth_hubener
10-15-2014, 08:44 AM
freecountyproject.org?
http://web.archive.org/http://forum.freecountyproject.com (http://web.archive.org/web/20050920055558/http://forum.freecountyproject.com)
Keith and stuff
10-16-2014, 10:10 PM
agree that, if we could only somehow, some way, get a small little island of real liberty (whether physical or metaphorical), we'd have the rest of the country clamoring for similar freedoms in no time. What we need is an American Hong Kong.
That's what Carla, the president of the FSP, always says. She wants to help create a Yankee Hong Kong. I don't see most of her speeches, yet I've still seen 3 or 4 of her speeches where she mentions it. That seems to be her goal and maybe it will happen in New Hampshire?
Pericles
10-17-2014, 11:07 AM
There's always seasteading...
I agree that, if we could only somehow, some way, get a small little island of real liberty (whether physical or metaphorical), we'd have the rest of the country clamoring for similar freedoms in no time. What we need is an American Hong Kong.
I think the only way we might ever achieve this politically is with a broad coalition compromise, where we basically say to the the uber-progressives, "help us create a small island for liberty, and we'll help you create a small island of progressive government, and then we'll both have the incubators and proving grounds we want." Maybe that would be a big enough coalition to wield the political force to make something happen.
A "progressive" knows he has the right answer and is not going to allow someone with a contrary opinion have the opportunity to demonstrate proof of concept.
Once you build it, you will have to be able to defend it.
Carlybee
10-17-2014, 11:50 AM
There's always seasteading...
I agree that, if we could only somehow, some way, get a small little island of real liberty (whether physical or metaphorical), we'd have the rest of the country clamoring for similar freedoms in no time. What we need is an American Hong Kong.
I think the only way we might ever achieve this politically is with a broad coalition compromise, where we basically say to the the uber-progressives, "help us create a small island for liberty, and we'll help you create a small island of progressive government, and then we'll both have the incubators and proving grounds we want." Maybe that would be a big enough coalition to wield the political force to make something happen.
I don't want to live around any uber progressives. For one thing they don't give a crap about liberty.
RonPaulIsGreat
10-17-2014, 03:04 PM
Just need bitcoin to hit 10K and I can start my own cult, I mean freedom town.
Deborah K
10-18-2014, 09:53 AM
Just need bitcoin to hit 10K and I can start my own cult, I mean freedom town.
Define "cult".
RonPaulIsGreat
10-19-2014, 11:10 PM
Define "cult".
Cult:A group of people living in proximity by intent, with strong held beliefs significantly different from those held by the majority in a given society.
helmuth_hubener
10-21-2014, 01:17 PM
Cult:A group of people living in proximity by intent, with strong held beliefs significantly different from those held by the majority in a given society.
So, are you in favor of such a thing, or opposed?
helmuth_hubener
10-21-2014, 01:18 PM
Did anybody listen to the thoughts from Hoppe? Do you think it would be a fruitful avenue?
Deborah K
10-21-2014, 01:31 PM
Cult:A group of people living in proximity by intent, with strong held beliefs significantly different from those held by the majority in a given society.
I cannot find this definition anywhere. Is it your personal view? Or do you have a source for it?
Anti Federalist
10-21-2014, 02:40 PM
Pffft...towns, counties, communities...how very old world and provincial of all of you.
helmuth_hubener
10-21-2014, 03:20 PM
Pffft...towns, counties, communities...how very old world and provincial of all of you.
What did you have in mind, AF?
RonPaulIsGreat
10-21-2014, 07:13 PM
I cannot find this definition anywhere. Is it your personal view? Or do you have a source for it?
It is essentially the standard definition applied to a more generalized context. Generally Cult is defined in a religious nature, but Define:Cult on Google.
Is not that different.
So, yeah, I'm defining it slightly outside its common usage.
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
"a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
synonyms: sect, denomination, group, movement, church, persuasion, body, faction
"a religious cult"
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
"a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for, idolization of, devotion to, worship of, veneration of
"the cult of eternal youth in Hollywood"
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable, especially among a particular section of society.
"a cult film"
helmuth_hubener
10-21-2014, 10:21 PM
RonPaulIsGreat, would you support and be interested in such a thing, or are you opposed?
helmuth_hubener
10-31-2014, 12:12 PM
Religious reasons actually do seem to be successful in providing the motivation level needed for relocations and community formations. There are many successful Amish and Mennonite communities around North America, as well as Hutterite and other groups even more divergent from the surrounding culture than the Amish and Mennonites (the Hutterites, to give you an idea, speak a form of archaic German). The Mormons migrated to Ohio, then to Missouri, then to Illinois, and then finally to Utah and throughout the intermountain West. The early Celtic christians formed monastic communities all over the place.
I wonder if there is any way we could harness the kind of passion and commitment that goes along with religious motivations for a project like this.
helmuth_hubener
11-04-2014, 12:54 PM
https://web.archive.org/web/20030606205305/http://freestateproject.org/spreadsheetstellus.htm
helmuth_hubener
11-12-2014, 06:30 PM
Pffft...towns, counties, communities...how very old world and provincial of all of you.
Again, AF, enlighten us on your brilliant plan. Or elaborate more on what you see as the failings of this one. I mean, if you're going to come try to rain on a parade, do put a little effort into it! Surely you can do better at destroying my plans for freedom than a one-liner.
phill4paul
11-12-2014, 06:43 PM
Again, AF, enlighten us on your brilliant plan. Or elaborate more on what you see as the failings of this one. I mean, if you're going to come try to rain on a parade, do put a little effort into it! Surely you can do better at destroying my plans for freedom than a one-liner.
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Written words are difficult to decipher at times, but it seemed to be a sarcastic comment to me. As in olde world and provincial being something that might be frowned upon. Which it really isn't. I dunno.
helmuth_hubener
12-05-2014, 03:35 PM
And even if it is impossible to win a
majority for a decidedly antidemocratic platform on a nationwide scale, there
appears to be no insurmountable difficulty in winning such a majority in
sufficiently small districts, and for local or regional functions within the overall
democratic government structure. In fact, there seems to be nothing unrealistic in
assuming that such majorities exist at thousands of locations. That is, locations
dispersed all over the country but not evenly dispersed.
But what then? Everything else falls almost automatically from the ultimate goal,
which must be kept permanently in mind, in all of one's activities: the restoration
from the bottom-up of private property and the right to property protection; the
right to self-defense, to exclude or include, and to freedom of contract. And the
answer can be broken down into two parts.
First, what to do within these very small districts, where a pro-private property
candidate and anti-majoritarian personality can win. And second, how to deal with
the higher levels of government, and especially with the central federal
government. First, as an initial step, and I'm referring now to what should be done
on the local level, the first central plank of one's platform should be: one must
attempt to restrict the right to vote on local taxes, in particular on property taxes
and regulations, to property and real estate owners. Only property owners must be
permitted to vote, and their vote is not equal, but in accordance with the value of
the equity owned, and the amount of taxes paid. That is, similar to what Lew
Rockwell already explained has happened in some places in California.
Further, all public employees — teachers, judges, policemen — and all welfare
recipients, must be excluded from voting on local taxes and local regulation
matters. These people are being paid out of taxes and should have no say
whatsoever how high these taxes are. With this platform one cannot of course win
everywhere; you cannot win in Washington, D.C. with a platform like this. but I
dare say that in many locations this can be easily done. The locations have to be
small enough and have to have a good number of decent people.
Consequently, local taxes and rates as well as local tax revenue will inevitably
decrease. Property values and most local incomes would increase whereas the
number and payment of public employees would fall. Now, and this is the most
decisive step, the following thing must be done, and always keep in mind that I am
talking about very small territorial districts, villages.
In this government funding crisis which breaks out once the right to vote has been
taken away from the mob, as a way out of this crisis, all local government assets
must be privatized. An inventory of all public buildings, and on the local level that
is not that much — schools, fire, police station, courthouses, roads, and so forth —
and then property shares or stock should be distributed to the local private property
owners in accordance with the total lifetime amount of taxes — property taxes —
that these people have paid. After all, it is theirs, they paid for these things.
These shares should be freely tradeable, sold and bought, and with this local
government would essentially be abolished. If it were not for the continued
existence of higher superior levels of government, this village or city would now be
a free or liberated territory. What would consequently happen to education and
more importantly, what would happen to property protection and justice?
On the small local level, we can be as certain, or even more so than we could have
been one hundred years ago about what would have happened if the king abdicated,
that what would happen is roughly this: all material resources that were previously
devoted to these functions — schools, police stations, courthouses — still exist, and
so does the manpower. The only difference is that they are now privately owned, or
temporarily unemployed in the case of public employees. Under the realistic
assumption that there continues to be a local demand for education and protection
and justice, the schools, police stations, and courthouses will be still used for the
very same purposes. And many former teachers, policemen and judges would be
rehired or resume their former position on their own account as self-employed
individuals, except that they would be operated or employed by local "bigshots" or
elites who own these things, all of whom are personally known figures. Either as
for-profit enterprises, or as, and what seems to be more likely, some mixture of
charitable and economic organization. Local "bigshots" frequently provide public
goods out of their own private pocket; and they obviously have the greatest interest
in the preservation of local justice and peace.
And this is all easy enough to see to work for schools and policemen, but what
about judges and justice? Recall that the root of all evil is compulsory
monopolization of justice, that is one person says this is right. Accordingly judges
must be freely financed, and free entry into judgeship positions must be assured.
Judges are not elected by vote, but chosen by the effective demand of justice
seekers. Also don't forget that on the small local level under consideration, one is
talking actually about a demand for one or very few judges only. Whether this or
these judges are then employed by the private courthouse association or stock
company, or are self-employed individuals who rent these facilities or offices, it
should be clear that only a handful of local people, and only widely known and
respected local personalities — that is, members of the natural local elite — would
have any chance whatsoever of being so selected as judges of local peace. Only
as members of the natural elite will their decision possess any authority and
become enforceable. And if they come up with judgments that are considered to be
ridiculous, they will be immediately displaced by other local authorities that are
more respectable. If you proceed along these lines on the local level, of course it
cannot be avoided that one will come into direct conflict with the upper and
especially the federal level of government power. How to deal with this problem?
Wouldn't the federales simply crush any such attempt?
They would surely like to, but whether or not they can actually do so is an entirely
different question, and to recognize this, it is only necessary to recognize that the
members of the governmental apparatus always represent, even under conditions of
democracy, merely a teeny proportion of the total population. And even smaller is
the proportion of central government employees.
Only as members of the natural elite will their decision possess any authority and
become enforceable. And if they come up with judgments that are considered to be
ridiculous, they will be immediately displaced by other local authorities that are
more respectable. If you proceed along these lines on the local level, of course it
cannot be avoided that one will come into direct conflict with the upper and
especially the federal level of government power. How to deal with this problem?
Wouldn't the federales simply crush any such attempt?
They would surely like to, but whether or not they can actually do so is an entirely
different question, and to recognize this, it is only necessary to recognize that the
members of the governmental apparatus always represent, even under conditions of
democracy, merely a teeny proportion of the total population. And even smaller is
the proportion of central government employees.
This implies that a central government cannot possibly enforce its legislative will,
or perverted law, upon the entire population unless it finds widespread local
support and cooperation in doing so. This becomes particularly obvious if one
imagines a large number of free cities or villages as I described them before. It is
practically impossible, manpower-wise, as well as from a public relations
standpoint, to take over thousands of territorially widely dispersed localities and
impose direct federal rule on them.
Without local enforcement, by compliant local authorities, the will of the central
government is not much more than hot air. Yet this local support and cooperation is
precisely what needs to be missing. To be sure, so long as the number of liberated
communities is still small, matters seem to be somewhat dangerous. However, even
during this initial phase in the liberation struggle, one can be quite confident.
It would appear to be prudent during this phase to avoid a direct confrontation with
the central government and not openly denounce its authority or even abjure the
realm. Rather, it seems advisable to engage in a policy of passive resistance and
noncooperation. One simply stops to help in the enforcement in each and every
federal law. One assumes the following attitude: "Such are your rules, and you
enforce them. I cannot hinder you, but I will not help you either, as my only
obligation is to my local constituents."
Consistently applied, no cooperation, no assistance whatsoever on any level, the
central government's power would be severely diminished or even evaporate. And
in light of the general public opinion, it would appear highly unlikely that the
federal government would dare to occupy a territory whose inhabitants did nothing
else than trying to mind their own business. Waco, a teeny group of freaks, is one
thing. But to occupy, or to wipe out a significantly large group of normal,
accomplished, upstanding citizens is quite another, and quite a more difficult thing.
Once the number of implicitly seceded territories has reached a critical mass, and
every success in one little location promotes and feeds on the next one, it will
become inevitably further radicalized to a nationwide, municipalization movement,
with explicitly secessionist local policies and openly and contemptuously displayed
noncompliance with federal authority.
And it is in this situation then, when the central government will be forced to
abdicate its protection monopoly and the relationship between the local authorities
that reemerge and the central authorities, who are about to lose their power, can be
put on a purely contractual level, and one might regain the power to defend one's
own property again.
-- Hans-Hermann Hoppe
helmuth_hubener
01-08-2015, 11:36 AM
2015 bump!
Let's build the future! We can do it!
helmuth_hubener
01-24-2015, 02:58 PM
So, again, what is the value proposition? Who really stands to benefit/ Who is really dying to have a free town?
Possibly, the libertarian community. That's certainly one market. But it's the one everyone has focused on already.
How about this: terminally ill people! Right now it takes biotech companies ten years and about a billion dollars (plus or minus, depending) from the time they start up to the time when they can finally sell their first, single pill or treatment or whatever it is to an actual customer. Wow, entrepreneurship is already hard! Try successfully predicting not what customers want, but what they'll want in ten years!
Now, if there were a place, a little town in the cool mountains of Arizona for instance, where the local authorities did not cooperate with the FDA, where the local economy had come to be based upon terminally ill patients coming to try cutting-edge experimental treatments before they are approved by the FDA (long before!), wouldn't that be something? Hmm...
helmuth_hubener
01-27-2015, 05:29 PM
These people are literally dying to have freedom!
idiom
01-27-2015, 11:13 PM
IF you moved 1000 people to one location in New Zealand, they would be far more free than anywhere in the US, plus they would be a big enough swing vote to have their own Member of Parliament.
Just sayin.
helmuth_hubener
01-28-2015, 10:21 AM
IF you moved 1000 people to one location in New Zealand, they would be far more free than anywhere in the US, plus they would be a big enough swing vote to have their own Member of Parliament.
But, member of Parliament isn't that interesting/exciting to me. I think: what if I were a member of Parliament? What would I do? Most likely: vote no on everything, and nothing would change or really be accomplished.
So, more interesting question for me: would those 1,000 have sufficient autonomy to be able to create a completely libertarian community ala Hoppe's road map?
I think the answer to that is probably yes, and so the even more interesting question is:
Can we find 1,000 people who will move to Picton, New Zealand (or whatever the best place in New Zealand is)?
That is a more difficult question. And that question applies equally to any geographical concentration strategy, wherever it is proposed to take place. And so I'm focusing on a question that aspires to answer that question:
What can we offer people to get large numbers of them fired up to move? What kind of value proposition can we put forward? And it has to be a credible offer, not just pie-in-the-sky vaporware. What can freedom do on a town level that will change people's lives and blow their minds?
idiom
01-28-2015, 03:44 PM
But, member of Parliament isn't that interesting/exciting to me. I think: what if I were a member of Parliament? What would I do? Most likely: vote no on everything, and nothing would change or really be accomplished.
So, more interesting question for me: would those 1,000 have sufficient autonomy to be able to create a completely libertarian community ala Hoppe's road map?
I think the answer to that is probably yes, and so the even more interesting question is:
Can we find 1,000 people who will move to Picton, New Zealand (or whatever the best place in New Zealand is)?
That is a more difficult question. And that question applies equally to any geographical concentration strategy, wherever it is proposed to take place. And so I'm focusing on a question that aspires to answer that question:
What can we offer people to get large numbers of them fired up to move? What kind of value proposition can we put forward? And it has to be a credible offer, not just pie-in-the-sky vaporware. What can freedom do on a town level that will change people's lives and blow their minds?
Because its a multi-party system, independent MP's usually hold swing vote power, and can easily gain ministerial positions. You also get a pretty solid national stage in the media if you have something interesting to say, and a place at debates.
Most of New Zealand is already sparsely populated enough that it is effectively autonomous. Most sectors are extremely unregulated, there are no subsidies for any industries to speak of.
If you were a community of 1000 producers, you would be extremely welcome and very much at home.
The country just needs a small kick to move it from very free to very libertarian. None of our politicians are particularly intellectual. A well spoken MP could get other MPs elected with him if he can get 2% of the national vote.
Both sides of the government are ideologically small government, which is pretty weird. The two main factors are the influence of America on the Main right party making them pursue stupid NSA friendly policies, and the left wanting to maintain an effective safety net, with national debt.
Due to the population difference, an activist is 100 times more effective here, so it would be like having a community of 100,000 people.
Keith and stuff
01-28-2015, 03:47 PM
IF you moved 1000 people to one location in New Zealand, they would be far more free than anywhere in the US, plus they would be a big enough swing vote to have their own Member of Parliament.
Just sayin.
Or they could move to Grafton, New Hampshire (or a similar town in NH) and have even more freedom. Plus, they would have the ability to vote. Can regular people with little savings move to New Zealand and vote?
helmuth_hubener
01-28-2015, 05:00 PM
Most of New Zealand is already sparsely populated enough that it is effectively autonomous. Most sectors are extremely unregulated, there are no subsidies for any industries to speak of.
If you were a community of 1000 producers, you would be extremely welcome and very much at home.
The country just needs a small kick to move it from very free to very libertarian. None of our politicians are particularly intellectual. A well spoken MP could get other MPs elected with him if he can get 2% of the national vote. True, New Zealand is very free. It has some very serious advantages already as a jurisdiction, just as you say, with relatively low regulation and a lot of laissez faire.
I'm liking this New Zealand idea!
Where do you think a good location would be, idiom?
helmuth_hubener
02-11-2015, 10:56 AM
Idiom?
helmuth_hubener
02-13-2015, 01:51 PM
How about this: terminally ill people! Right now it takes biotech companies ten years and about a billion dollars (plus or minus, depending) from the time they start up to the time when they can finally sell their first, single pill or treatment or whatever it is to an actual customer. Wow, entrepreneurship is already hard! Try successfully predicting not what customers want, but what they'll want in ten years!
Now, if there were a place, a little town in the cool mountains of Arizona for instance, where the local authorities did not cooperate with the FDA, where the local economy had come to be based upon terminally ill patients coming to try cutting-edge experimental treatments before they are approved by the FDA (long before!), wouldn't that be something? Hmm...
These people are literally dying to have freedom!
No one replied to my experimental medicine haven, perhaps because no one recognized it as referencing a real situation. Here's some background:
"Arizona voters overwhelmingly approved a measure to allow terminally ill patients to obtain experimental drugs that haven’t been approved by the Food and Drug Administration.
"So-called 'right to try' laws, which have passed in several state legislatures this year, got their start with the Goldwater Institute, a conservative think tank. But Arizona was the first to put the issue directly to voters, and they passed Proposition 303 with nearly 80 percent of the vote."
http://www.governing.com/topics/elections/gov-arizona-experimental-drugs-ballots.html
Also:
http://ecorner.stanford.edu/authorMaterialInfo.html?mid=1652
An Entrepreneurial Perspective on the Life Sciences Industry
willwash
02-13-2015, 04:14 PM
I'm starting to think more and more that secession is the only answer.
RonPaulIsGreat
02-13-2015, 05:00 PM
Kim dotcom lives in New Zealand.
It'd be very difficult to move to new zealand. The cheapest method would be, I guess to sell everything, convert to bitcoin, and buy new stuff upon landing. I doubt they just let anyone just show up and proclaim citizenship as well.
We all need to rebel against the criminal U.S and form a new country called the United States of Liberty and have Ron Paul as President!
helmuth_hubener
02-13-2015, 06:09 PM
We all need to rebel against the criminal U.S and form a new country called the United States of Liberty and have Ron Paul as President!
I am all for that -- we are all all for that -- but we need to work out a lot more details than what you just provided. Please stick around and let's work out a actual plan! Post your ideas!
helmuth_hubener
02-13-2015, 06:13 PM
Kim dotcom lives in New Zealand.
It'd be very difficult to move to new zealand. The cheapest method would be, I guess to sell everything, convert to bitcoin, and buy new stuff upon landing. I doubt they just let anyone just show up and proclaim citizenship as well.
1. Shipping a cube is not that complicated, nor expensive. I mean, it's kind of expensive, of course, but so is moving cross-country with a moving truck company.
2. You don't have to convert to bitcoin; indeed I see no reason to for this. Just convert to what we call "money". It's not that complicated.
3. You don't have to be a citizen to move there. You just get a visa. It's not that complicated.
No taxes, no police, very small government, no drug laws, no wars, completely free market, private healthcare and no ridiculous licenses and much more!
Carlybee
02-13-2015, 06:25 PM
Doesn't New Zealand have very strict immigration laws?
helmuth_hubener
02-14-2015, 11:05 AM
Doesn't New Zealand have very strict immigration laws?
I don't know; doesn't look too bad. There's a nice tool at http://nzready.immigration.govt.nz to give you a checklist. They let in about 60,000 people a year. They give preference to people with certain skills in shortage and to investors (min. $2.5 mil). They require a minimum aptitude at English, as determined by a test.
Plus, if you're from the USA, you can just go there, no visa required whatsoever, for up to three months. Probably easier once you're there and have an income and home and are settled somewhat to sort out how to get a residency visa. A residency visa, according to the gov't web site, is somewhat harder to get than other kinds, but it also means you can stay indefinitely -- that is, forever. As long as you like.
Idiom, I am sure you can shed more light on this. How draconian are the immigration laws? As skilled, educated, English-speaking American citizens, is it going to be pretty easy to get in?
helmuth_hubener
02-14-2015, 11:06 AM
No taxes, no police, very small government, no drug laws, no wars, completely free market, private healthcare and no ridiculous licenses and much more!
RG, are you willing to relocate you and your family to someplace where something like this (no taxes, small gov't, etc.) could actually be implemented?
RG, are you willing to relocate you and your family to someplace where something like this (no taxes, small gov't, etc.) could actually be implemented?
WE could start here in America.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_JfHLs2Nc4&list=PL57F6BB69652CE395&index=14
This would be our National Anthem!
helmuth_hubener
02-14-2015, 11:38 AM
WE could start here in America.
But not just anywhere in America, my friend. We can't tackle the entire country (most of a large continent!) at once. Unless, that is, you have some sort of realistic plan to do so. I think you don't. I certainly don't. But what we can do is that many of us could move to one small area, and by so concentrating ourselves give ourselves the ability to implement our desired policy -- Freedom! -- in that one small area.
So, would you be willing to relocate yourself and your family in such a way, in order to participate in a plan to actually achieve your stated goals of freedom?
But not just anywhere in America, my friend. We can't tackle the entire country (most of a large continent!) at once. Unless, that is, you have some sort of realistic plan to do so. I think you don't. I certainly don't. But what we can do is that many of us could move to one small area, and by so concentrating ourselves give ourselves the ability to implement our desired policy -- Freedom! -- in that one small area.
So, would you be willing to relocate yourself and your family in such a way, in order to participate in a plan to actually achieve your stated goals of freedom?
No, other countries are just as bad or even worse than America (U.S). Europe has no gun rights gov controls all of your life and super high taxes!
helmuth_hubener
02-14-2015, 12:05 PM
No, other countries are just as bad or even worse than America (U.S). Europe has no gun rights gov controls all of your life and super high taxes!
You aren't following me, RG. New Zealand is just one possibility. If you will read the rest of the thread, you will see that the main thread is toward options such as:
Kaluapapa, Molokai, Hawaii
Grafton, New Hampshire
Aladdin, Wyoming
Loving, Texas
Arizona
Alaska
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Keene, New Hampshire
These are all places in the United States of America. They are all relatively small places where a group of 1,000 could effect a real political change for freedom.
So my question is: Are you one of the 1,000?
I like the Lord of the Rings music, by the way. Maybe you could write some words to it! An anthem needs words! :)
Wyoming would work because of its lowest population in the country it would make the biggest difference. :)
helmuth_hubener
02-14-2015, 12:58 PM
Its population still is not low enough. Half a million people in Wyoming! Way, way, way too many.
A whole state is simply too much. We need, in my opinion, to be more focused. Like a laser beam. We could, very realistically, take on a small town or small county. Probably, less than 1,000 would be ideal. We come in, it's a done deal. Success is built in to the design of the plan. Though a case could be made for trying in a more populous place, maybe 5,000 or even up to 10,000. But it would be a big risk, and I'm not sure there are any advantages that would outweigh the disadvantages.
Its population still is not low enough. Half a million people in Wyoming! Way, way, way too many.
A whole state is simply too much. We need, in my opinion, to be more focused. Like a laser beam. We could, very realistically, take on a small town or small county. Probably, less than 1,000 would be ideal. We come in, it's a done deal. Success is built in to the design of the plan. Though a case could be made for trying in a more populous place, maybe 5,000 or even up to 10,000. But it would be a big risk, and I'm not sure there are any advantages that would outweigh the disadvantages.
Western South Dakota would definitely work especially Hot Springs,South Dakota, Pop only 3,514. ;)
helmuth_hubener
02-14-2015, 01:41 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Hot_springs_south_dakota_welcome_sign.jpg
http://s3.amazonaws.com/loa.images/inv/928068/928068-1010181622427837-p.jpg
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/20/68/37/falls-with-algae.jpg
It's a nice area!
Or what about Hill City or Keystone?
http://www.allblackhills.com/images/content/4169_vua8d_Keystone_South_Dakota_md.jpg
Closer to civilization (Rapid), but still beautiful.
helmuth_hubener
02-18-2015, 11:21 AM
Just wanted to repost ZENemy's wonderful post. This is the sentiment that I like to imagine is alight in the hearts of thousands of libertarians. I do believe that we can truly do something that would harness it, and bring our ideas to life in the real world.
But I cannot do it alone. I need a co-founder.
So, does anyone else understand my vision and feel the same way, to the extent they want to do something about it?
From ZENemy (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?456305-Creating-a-Free-Town-or-County&p=5598171&viewfull=1#post5598171):
I agree.
I feel that if we are ever to move forward in a somewhat focused effort that we first must collect those that are ready to stop complaining, bitching and telling everyone how it "cant be done" or "its been done before".
Its a good thing that its been done before, good, we have tons of mistakes that we do not have to make by learning from past examples.
I like the idea of starting small...something like moving into and creating the idea of "liberty" apartment complexes all over the country. Maybe like a traveling freestateproject? I know this is not the greatest idea but its just something Ive randomly thought about, I think whats most important is for local like minded people to get together IN REAL LIFE and discuss these idea. Just packing 30 people into a room in REAL life, not in a damn chat window. I feel flesh and blood discussions in one night can do a lot more than years of back and forth on facebook or other social sites.
What I would love to see is people to stop saying "that will never work...you are wasting your time" and start saying "that's gonna be tough but we should make it work and can make it work" I feel that many people miss how important just TALKING about a move like this is. Once we are all talking about it and have agreed that we are going to make it work then NOTHING can stop us.
RonPaulIsGreat
02-18-2015, 09:49 PM
Well, the first thing any group wanting to form a community would have to address is.....
Cold Hard Cash. I've seen no one address this in a real way.
So, a 1000 people move to a small town, they will not have the housing for them, so before they could even move, housing would have to be built. If moving to a 1000 sized town that would mean housing be built for like 750 people or more if excluding kids and just counting adults in the 1000. So, what's the cost to build apartments and or housing for 750+ people? That would have to be raised day 1. Otherwise it'd seem to me that option would be dead on arrival.
It's millions of dollars up front, and sure people could sell their old house after the move, but you'd still need cash before then, and to be blunt about it, alot of liberty lovers are flat broke, just like most of the general population. So, it'd either largely be funded by a minority, or financed via a bank. However going in debt to a bank seems somehow against the whole freedom living concept.
Anyway, here I'll start the Cash Discussion.
I could come up with 30K in a week for a real project.
I also bring my own income. So, don't need to worry about a job in the area, just need internet access.
So, just need 1,970,000 more to start a real discussion.
invisible
02-21-2015, 12:29 AM
$30k would buy an awfully nice chunk of raw land in a prime area of OK, well away from any fracking activity, and within reasonable distance from population centers although it is otherwise pretty isolated and very rural. And even within that area, I know of a town that does have plenty of available housing: an unincorporated town, with no town government, and therefore no building codes, zoning, permits, or other municipal laws or taxes. $30k would probably buy most of that town. And yes, there is supposedly decent internet access available in that area, according to my research.
RonPaulIsGreat
02-21-2015, 11:19 PM
$30k would buy an awfully nice chunk of raw land in a prime area of OK, well away from any fracking activity, and within reasonable distance from population centers although it is otherwise pretty isolated and very rural. And even within that area, I know of a town that does have plenty of available housing: an unincorporated town, with no town government, and therefore no building codes, zoning, permits, or other municipal laws or taxes. $30k would probably buy most of that town. And yes, there is supposedly decent internet access available in that area, according to my research.
30K is enough to buy a good chunk of land, or possibly a few rehab houses in a struggling area. It's no where near enough to get a community going though. 30K from 30 people, then you can start to get somewhere, then a few contractors to refurb those houses, and enough purchasing power to buy bulk, Community equipment, etc..
paleocon1
02-22-2015, 10:14 AM
This has been discussed before. I want to bring it up again and see how much interest there still is.
If there are about 1,000 liberty-lovers willing to relocate, we could all relocate to a town or county of population 1,000 or so and join with the locals to move the town or county closer to liberty.
Who would be interested and willing to do such a thing?
I think the arrival of a horde of outsiders looking to establish their 'zion' would be violently resented anywhere.If the locals wanted what you want- they would already have it.
paleocon1
02-22-2015, 10:26 AM
..................the first central plank of one's platform should be: one must
attempt to restrict the right to vote on local taxes, in particular on property taxes
and regulations, to property and real estate owners. Only property owners must be
permitted to vote, and their vote is not equal, but in accordance with the value of
the equity owned, and the amount of taxes paid. That is, similar to what Lew
Rockwell already explained has happened in some places in California.
Further, all public employees — teachers, judges, policemen — and all welfare
recipients, must be excluded from voting on local taxes and local regulation
matters. These people are being paid out of taxes and should have no say
whatsoever how high these taxes are. ....................................
worthy goals, BUT a guarantee of almost certain defeat if pursued as Agenda Item One.
A goal equally valuable and much easier for which to gather support would be to either disarm local cops or to outright abolish the PD. Success in this effort and the Reality of no harm done to ordinary folk would build momentum for next steps.
helmuth_hubener
02-23-2015, 01:43 PM
violently resented
Violence is one thing.
Resentment is another.
Resentment can be dealt with, no matter how strongly ("violently") felt, and it will eventually dissipate.
Actual violence can be dealt with too, for that matter. And is less likely.
helmuth_hubener
02-23-2015, 01:51 PM
Anyway, here I'll start the Cash Discussion. Thank you. It's a good discussion.
Your starting point is that something like 2 million dollars is probably needed. That may be an over-estimate, or it ay be an under-estimate.
I personally do not share your assumption that large housing developments need to be built, in-house, by the project itself. There is more than one way to meet one's housing needs. One can save up $200,000 and build a new house. True. Or one can save up $20,000 and make a down-payment on an already-existing house. Sounds easier. Or one can start renting an already-existing accommodation for $300 per month. Boy, that last one sounds downright doable!
helmuth_hubener
02-23-2015, 01:54 PM
worthy goals, BUT a guarantee of almost certain defeat if pursued as Agenda Item One.
Here is how democracy works:
Total victory = one more vote than the other side.
That's it! That's the only criterium. If you have one more vote than all of your opponents combined, it seriously does not matter one whit what your agenda is. Whatever your agenda is, you win.
helmuth_hubener
03-31-2015, 09:39 AM
Any other candidate locations?
Any ideas related to how we are going to gather a sufficient number of people to achieve democratic victory?
Keith and stuff
03-31-2015, 11:18 PM
Any ideas related to how we are going to gather a sufficient number of people to achieve democratic victory?
I'll throw out the common idea of encouraging liberty folks from other parts of New Hampshire to relocate to the only place people are trying something similar to this, Grafton, NH.
Don't worry, I have other ideas too :)
Find a rich person to buy a motel in a dying town. Hire a lawyer to make sure the motel can be legally converted to apartments. Recruit young, poor, liberty folks to live in the motel for free.
Find a rich person to set-up a container motel for homeless people. That might be the only way a lawyer could convenience a container motel. Recruit liberty homeless people to live in the motel.
Find a rich person to build a large compound in a very rural part of Texas like the idea behind Paulville. Just in case, ban children from the compound. Let poor liberty folks live in the compound for the price of their labor.
Find a pro-liberty WWOOF farmer with a lot of land in a very rural area. Encourage the farmer to seek out only liberty, long-term laborers.
helmuth_hubener
04-01-2015, 10:43 AM
I'll throw out the common idea of encouraging liberty folks from other parts of New Hampshire to relocate to the only place people are trying something similar to this, Grafton, NH. But how can we find enough of them? That's the rub.
Don't worry, I have other ideas too :) He, He, He! :D
Find a rich person to buy a motel in a dying town. Hire a lawyer to make sure the motel can be legally converted to apartments. Recruit young, poor, liberty folks to live in the motel for free. This would be quite doable. I could do it. BUT, I don't think it would work. You're just going to attract a lot of marginal people. There's a human factor in the success of any community. If there aren't any high-quality people living there, it isn't going to magically become prosperous and awesome.
Find a rich person to set-up a container motel for homeless people. That might be the only way a lawyer could convenience a container motel. Recruit liberty homeless people to live in the motel. Yes, well,... as you can imagine, I find this even further down the wrong path.
Find a rich person to build a large compound in a very rural part of Texas like the idea behind Paulville. Just in case, ban children from the compound. Let poor liberty folks live in the compound for the price of their labor. A rich person is not needed for this. Worthless rural land is cheap. You'd just get together a group of mover-investors, similar to what Pericles and his group are doing.
Find a pro-liberty WWOOF farmer with a lot of land in a very rural area. Encourage the farmer to seek out only liberty, long-term laborers.World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms. OK, I guess this would be kind of a hippie-commune flavor thing, while the previous would be more a cowboy-commune thing.
A New Hampshire resident recently lamented that there is a dire shortage of money coming into the state with Free-Staters (most people are either wage slaves or in some cases, welfare recipients). Is that true?
###########
Are there any places where property taxes are fully directed to the county government , with none going to state government?
Keith and stuff
04-01-2015, 11:05 AM
World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms. OK, I guess this would be kind of a hippie-commune flavor thing, while the previous would be more a cowboy-commune thing.
The idea is that someone find/convert a WWOOF farm owner that is pro-liberty. The farmer agrees to only let pro-liberty folks work on the farm. The farmer drives them to government meetings, elections...
Many WWOOF farms exist in the US. https://www.facebook.com/groups/229551257249475/
helmuth_hubener
04-01-2015, 12:55 PM
The idea is that someone find/convert a WWOOF farm owner that is pro-liberty. The farmer agrees to only let pro-liberty folks work on the farm. The farmer drives them to government meetings, elections...
Like I say, sounds like hippy camp to me. Certainly there is a demographic in the liberty movement to whom that would appeal. I'm not saying it's a bad idea.
helmuth_hubener
04-07-2015, 09:15 AM
A New Hampshire resident recently lamented that there is a dire shortage of money coming into the state with Free-Staters (most people are either wage slaves or in some cases, welfare recipients). Is that true? There is probably some truth to it. Most Americans earn wages, and many are on welfare, and both camps likely include many "free staters."
Are there any places where property taxes are fully directed to the county government , with none going to state government? Not that I know of. However, I would say the local portion is usually bigger. If you can privatize the town or county, you've gone a long, long, long way to privatizing and thus liberating your everyday life.
Keith and stuff
04-07-2015, 10:02 AM
A New Hampshire resident recently lamented that there is a dire shortage of money coming into the state with Free-Staters (most people are either wage slaves or in some cases, welfare recipients). Is that true?
Lol. Haters gonna hate. If that is true, NH voters must love to elect poor people because we have been winning elections like gangbusters. Free staters have won too many elections to keep track. It is well over 100, though :)
Are there any places where property taxes are fully directed to the county government , with none going to state government?
The property tax bill either breaks down into municipal/county/school/state school sections or in some places, there is no tax bill because there are no property taxes.
The state school section doesn't go to the state. A formula is used, and it is sent to school districts around the state. The state government controls the formula. Sen. Shaheen put this in place when she was the governor of NH. She tried to put a sales tax in place, people told her WTF, so she did this instead. It allows the NH state government to pretend that it pays for a huge section of the government k-12 schools, when it is actually local property taxes, raised by local governments, and spent by local governments.
To answer your question, no property tax money goes to the state. As for the county government, that's typically the smallest section of the property tax bill. The counties do very little so they need very little money to operate. The NH system is very local when it comes to taxes and spending. Towns and cities are where the purse strings are at. And in towns, the voters control the purse strings because they literally control how much the town spends/taxes, unlike almost every other state.
helmuth_hubener
04-08-2015, 10:02 AM
Bump.
helmuth_hubener
04-21-2015, 09:02 AM
Bump.
RonPaulIsGreat
04-21-2015, 03:50 PM
This u-haul is getting really expensive, I packed up everything and have been waiting to go for months! Can someone tell me the destination to libertarian paradise please.
helmuth_hubener
05-04-2015, 11:52 AM
This u-haul is getting really expensive, I packed up everything and have been waiting to go for months! Can someone tell me the destination to libertarian paradise please.
Destinations abound, but interested migrants seem scarce. At least on RPF.
The idea is very doable, but it requires a significant number of strongly committed, strongly libertarian individuals and families.
helmuth_hubener
05-07-2015, 10:44 AM
Secession Begins at Home (http://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/01/jeff-deist/secession-begins-at-home/)
Jeff Deist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422579428&v=1p7F8EhY91g&x-yt-cl=85114404
"Imagine what a committed, coordinated libertarian base could achieve in America! 10 percent of the US population, or roughly thirty-two million people, would be an unstoppable force of nonviolent withdrawal from the federal leviathan."
First, let's try finding 32.
Then, maybe 320.
First, let's try liberating a small town or county.
Then, much later, maybe we can realistically think about liberating the whole continent.
helmuth_hubener
06-10-2015, 12:31 PM
Bump.
helmuth_hubener
03-09-2017, 12:24 PM
I still think this is a highly promising idea.
Jesse James
03-09-2017, 12:27 PM
I'm in but it has to be in the South or Alaska
jllundqu
03-09-2017, 12:31 PM
Again I would vote for somewhere in the Midwest/Northwest.... flyover country, as it were.
Confining oneself to the jam-packed northeast was never a smart move. I think enough liberty lovers already live in various places in the center of the country and would more easily relocate to a more centered destination than NH. Hell there's already a massive liberty/prepper community called the American Redoubt. If there were an organized effort to have a freestateproject in the mid/northwest??? Shit you'd have massive influence over the entire state before too long. States like Wyoming, Idaho, etc have very small populations and LOOOOOOOOTS OF LAND.
tod evans
03-09-2017, 12:36 PM
Talking to my neighbor yesterday......
There's a community in Tx. that's all about preserving the old ways, smithing, carpentry, hunting, farming,food/storage etc. He said they were several thousand strong already and his daughter and her husband were moving next month...
Given my knowledge of the family there's a strong Christian bend to the association but I don't see that as a bad thing...
If anybody is curious I'll try and remember to get more details?
Jesse James
03-09-2017, 01:11 PM
Talking to my neighbor yesterday......
There's a community in Tx. that's all about preserving the old ways, smithing, carpentry, hunting, farming,food/storage etc. He said they were several thousand strong already and his daughter and her husband were moving next month...
Given my knowledge of the family there's a strong Christian bend to the association but I don't see that as a bad thing...
If anybody is curious I'll try and remember to get more details?
let's hear it
tod evans
03-09-2017, 01:15 PM
let's hear it
I've given you what I remember of our conversation. I'll try to remember to get more details next time we talk..
Jesse James
03-09-2017, 01:21 PM
I've given you what I remember of our conversation. I'll try to remember to get more details next time we talk..
thanks!
Origanalist
03-09-2017, 03:27 PM
Again I would vote for somewhere in the Midwest/Northwest.... flyover country, as it were.
Confining oneself to the jam-packed northeast was never a smart move. I think enough liberty lovers already live in various places in the center of the country and would more easily relocate to a more centered destination than NH. Hell there's already a massive liberty/prepper community called the American Redoubt. If there were an organized effort to have a freestateproject in the mid/northwest??? Shit you'd have massive influence over the entire state before too long. States like Wyoming, Idaho, etc have very small populations and LOOOOOOOOTS OF LAND.
Northern Idaho is really nice country. And close enough I would seriously consider plopping some money down on a place, I could commute until I established enough connections to get by there.
Jesse James
03-09-2017, 06:04 PM
Liechtenstein is the best choice
Matt Collins
03-09-2017, 08:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg2VZIPfX0U
helmuth_hubener
03-17-2017, 12:39 PM
If there is enough interest, perhaps we can convince Bryan, the site owner, to set us up a little sub-section where we can talk and build a community.
...
So the first step is to gauge the feasibility by trying to find as many people as possible who are so sick of not having liberty and committed to getting liberty that they are willing to uproot themselves and relocate. Then we can gather together here as like-minded individuals and take stock of the situation. So.... what should we talk about? :D
Let's keep the conversation going! What would be interesting, let's see..... well, as long as we're thinking about moving, what goes right along with that is housing. You'll have to live somewhere in the new place.
What would be your ideal home?
Something like this, perhaps?
http://cdn.goodshomedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/beautiful-small-cabins-in-the-middle-of-nowhere-14.jpg
helmuth_hubener
03-17-2017, 12:43 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg2VZIPfX0U Yes, though I imagine he did it satirically with tongue firmly in cheek, the video-maker actually does give a fairly grounded, logical framework for how to go about starting your own country.
I own the book How to Start Your Own Country and it is good as well.
Lonely Planet's Travel Guide to Micronations is a riot and you can see how actual people have actually done it, both successfully and otherwise.
helmuth_hubener
03-17-2017, 12:44 PM
I'm in but it has to be in the South or Alaska
Would you rule out the west?
reduen
03-17-2017, 02:20 PM
I live in northern Arkansas and my son and I have talked about buying a town for just this purpose. I would be up for something like this but I couldn't do this with a bunch of atheist who hate Christians. I can live and let live but my experience has been that atheists can not.
tod evans
03-17-2017, 08:27 PM
I've given you what I remember of our conversation. I'll try to remember to get more details next time we talk..
thanks!
I spoke to the neighbor and remembered to ask...:eek:
http://www.homesteadheritage.com/
I skimmed the site, lotsa good ideas but the Anabaptist doctrine kind of leaves me out....
I'm 100% down with the self sustainability and craftsmanship though....
tod evans
03-17-2017, 08:28 PM
So.... what should we talk about? :D
Let's keep the conversation going! What would be interesting, let's see..... well, as long as we're thinking about moving, what goes right along with that is housing. You'll have to live somewhere in the new place.
What would be your ideal home?
Something like this, perhaps?
http://cdn.goodshomedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/beautiful-small-cabins-in-the-middle-of-nowhere-14.jpg
My tools currently occupy 4000 feet.........And I need a bed/shower and kitchen.
Otherwise Hell Yeah!
Origanalist
03-17-2017, 10:43 PM
So.... what should we talk about? :D
Let's keep the conversation going! What would be interesting, let's see..... well, as long as we're thinking about moving, what goes right along with that is housing. You'll have to live somewhere in the new place.
What would be your ideal home?
Something like this, perhaps?
http://cdn.goodshomedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/beautiful-small-cabins-in-the-middle-of-nowhere-14.jpg
That, is camping.
MallsRGood
03-18-2017, 02:45 PM
Trying to get control of local government is worthwhile, but the gains for liberty are going to be quite small - and quite possibly not worth the cost of a big migration. Most of our oppression is at the hands of the federal government and the states, and one can't meaningfully escape that just by controlling an inferior government. Local governments are creatures of the states, to be altered or abolished as they please. Even if present laws allow substantial autonomy, those laws can be changed - and will be once the authorities realize what's happening.
I'm not saying don't try to do this, but have realistic expectations.
If the goal is to live among like minded people, have a certain local culture, do cooperative prepping, etc great.
If the goal is to actually free yourself from the oppressive laws of this country, you're going to be disappointed.
For the latter to be realistic, you'd have to at least control a state, and even then gains would be limited (see: 1861-65).
Jesse James
03-18-2017, 03:36 PM
Would you rule out the west?
if it is worth it i would not rule out anywhere.
Jesse James
03-18-2017, 03:38 PM
I live in northern Arkansas and my son and I have talked about buying a town for just this purpose. I would be up for something like this but I couldn't do this with a bunch of atheist who hate Christians. I can live and let live but my experience has been that atheists can not.
in 10 years I will hit you up, my girlfriend and I will be buying an old plantation home in the South and we are as Christian as it gets. we could make good neighbors
helmuth_hubener
03-18-2017, 09:17 PM
If the goal is to actually free yourself from the oppressive laws of this country, you're going to be disappointed.
Nay, it is you who will be very, very surprised.
If I manage to round up 1,000 high-quality, moral, principled people, and we move, you don't even know how huge that is. And yes, the initial expectations are going to be modest and reasonable. But you would be very surprised what could be done and how much power a Sheriff has, along with a mayor, city council, county commission, etc., if all are highly intelligent, motivated, and on the same page. As well as patient and firmly determined.
helmuth_hubener
03-18-2017, 09:18 PM
if it is worth it i would not rule out anywhere.Yeah, same here.
I just asked because the west seems to be a popular choice with a lot of people here.
That sounds delightful
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qwHhf8j-t9g/VAm0k7uk0UI/AAAAAAAAAF0/gqh7x0IDygY/s1600/Stewie.jpg
liberty4vince
03-20-2017, 03:26 AM
Hello, I'm here in support of a man who is working to establish a free county in Costilla County Colorado by becoming sheriff. He could use our support.
Jesse James
03-20-2017, 06:23 AM
Hello, I'm here in support of a man who is working to establish a free county in Costilla County Colorado by becoming sheriff. He could use our support.
I have always thought this is the best way to get a county libertarian.
reduen
03-20-2017, 03:20 PM
We basically tried something like this a some years back. (It should be posted around here somewhere..) I made it all the way to the county election commissioners spot but ultimately we failed because people started falling by the wayside when times got tough and we did not get rid of the entire established leadership at the beginning. Our main fault was that we had too much compassion for those who were already established and they stabbed me (us) in the back every chance they got. A lot of time, money and health was the ultimate cost. I learned a lot during the experience but it would take some serious talking to get me to try something like this again. It literally almost killed me.
reduen
03-20-2017, 03:34 PM
Do a quick search on here for "Stone County Arkansas" and you can find a lot of info about what we went through. (Sorry for the double post here..)
helmuth_hubener
03-23-2017, 08:16 AM
Osan, I'm going to answer you over in this thread, for continuity and organization's sake. Hope that's OK.
I still cannot for the life of me grok what possessed people to choose NH. Why not, then, NJ?
There was some... "stacking of the deck"... that went on from NH partisans.
The largest block of FSP members at the time of the vote were people *already living* in New Hampshire! You see, the rule was that one could choose which of the ten states to which one was willing to move, down to and including just one single state, and this rule was taken full advantage of by the NH partisans. They had an aggressive effort to sign up as many NH people as possible, even those not willing to move at all! Perhaps especially those. All they had to do was check one box, New Hampshire, and leave the boxes for Wyoming, Vermont, Maine, Delaware, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Idaho blank.
Not exactly in keeping with the true spirit of the project was such behavior, in my view. But.... it led the NH partisans to victory, so who can argue with results? Of course, it depends how one defines victory. You and I take a somewhat more long-term and more ambitious view.
Osan, I'm going to answer you over in this thread, for continuity and organization's sake. Hope that's OK.
There was some... "stacking of the deck"... that went on from NH partisans.
The largest block of FSP members at the time of the vote were people *already living* in New Hampshire! You see, the rule was that one could choose which of the ten states to which one was willing to move, down to and including just one single state, and this rule was taken full advantage of by the NH partisans. They had an aggressive effort to sign up as many NH people as possible, even those not willing to move at all! Perhaps especially those. All they had to do was check one box, New Hampshire, and leave the boxes for Wyoming, Vermont, Maine, Delaware, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Idaho blank.
Not exactly in keeping with the true spirit of the project was such behavior, in my view. But.... it led the NH partisans to victory, so who can argue with results? Of course, it depends how one defines victory. You and I take a somewhat more long-term and more ambitious view.
OK, so what we had there was just another instance of rank corruption at work.
Based on that alone, I would call the FSP wholly invalid and unworthy of any consideration. Just my worthless opinion on the matter.
THIS is why humanity is doomed. There aren't enough men of nominal integrity to make plausible even the most meager endeavors, and the individual holds no hope of overcoming the collectivist juggernaut that designs to crush him through the corruption that is its lifeblood.
Assuming the veracity of what you have written here, it turns out the high falutin' FSP was born of nothing better than the common corruption of people with no apparent intent to move; born of people just as full of shit as those against whom they complained. There's a part of me that wants to say "I can't believe it", but I will not allow myself that indulgence. Until this moment, I actually never questioned the personal integrity of the people who ran this program, only to find they were just another raft of low-rent crooks. Holy crap.
I didn't think my faith in humanity could sink any lower. I was wrong.
As to arguing, I can argue those results blindfolded, both hands tied behind my back, and in a coma because they were arrived upon through personal corruption and not the adeptly applied objective considerations of capable and honest human beings. FSP has the stink on it, as far as I am concerned, going a long way to explaining why a liberal stooge-hole like NH was chosen. How immensely disappointing.
helmuth_hubener
03-23-2017, 09:33 AM
Oh, and Alaska.
A lot of people left Alaska unchecked, though. ;)
helmuth_hubener
03-23-2017, 09:38 AM
Assuming the veracity of what you have written here.
Well, in fairness, I have focused on one factor, and there were, as in all contests, many factors that led to victory. There were certainly also people not living in NH who voted for NH as the best choice.
But there were more people not living in Wyoming who nevertheless voted for Wyoming.
In my opinion, the aggressive signing up of NH natives was the decisive factor that put NH over the top. Without those extra hundreds of votes, Wyoming, the second-place choice, would have come out on top.
But, there is someone who will probably be along shortly to give you the pro-NH point of view.
But, there is someone who will probably be along shortly to give you the pro-NH point of view.
There is no pro-POV for me. Not in the wake of the truth. I would not have chosen NH in any event. But that's just me.
jllundqu
03-23-2017, 10:55 AM
There is no pro-POV for me. Not in the wake of the truth. I would not have chosen NH in any event. But that's just me.
I have never understood why NH was chosen when there were quite plainly better options on the table. Trying to 'take over' a liberal bastion in New England rather than employ the pioneer spirit and already fertile ground that is the American Midwest, was ignorance on display. I would support a second initiative to create an ACTUAL free state in a place like Wyoming or Idaho... THIS, I would think, would be a cause worthy of my effort and my dollars.
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