Are we paying to bring all these people from south of the border ?

[mrsat_98]

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=c6d7c0050b912fbc917a46d6709d38bd&tab=core&tabmode=list&=s=opportunity&mode=form&id=c6d7c0050b912fbc917a46d6709d38bd&tab=core&tabmode=list&amp


Escort Services for Unaccompanied Alien Children
Solicitation Number: BERKS-RFI
Agency: Department of Homeland Security
Office: Immigration & Customs Enforcement
Location: ICE-OAQ-DM



More at the link

[CPUd]

http://i.imgur.com/KdufBwp.gif

[Origanalist]

http://i.imgur.com/KdufBwp.gif

I don't get it.

[Constitutional Paulicy]

I don't get it.

It's CPU'd. He's run out of relevant gifs.

[donnay]

That's the plan...flood out this country with illegals so they suck off the system and bankrupt us. :mad:

[Carlybee]

Yes plus paying to feed them, house them and help them find their relatives but most people here think that's just fine and if you disagree you are not for liberty.

[AuH20]

This one needs to go viral. Maybe the synapses will fire for the dimwitted:

http://clashdaily.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/1011576_425918390858278_1434448673_n-630x444.png

[mczerone]

I don't know about you, but the only thing I'm paying for is the appearance of being a "good taxpaying citizen".

Anything they do with that money after it's left my pocket is out of my control.

[donnay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEEXGInmVZ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEEXGInmVZ8

[AuH20]

The Mexican government is supposedly issuing special 30 day passes for these migrants to pass through their country. That's how orchestrated this whole event is. Normally, the southern Mexican border is near impossible to cross due to the high security there.

[donnay]

North Texas Charities Feel Strain of Illegal Immigrant Tidal Wave

by Kristin Tate

HOUSTON, Texas--Charities and attorneys in North Texas are strained as a result of the tidal wave of immigrants entering the U.S. illegally, hundreds of miles away at the U.S.-Mexico border.

Catholic Charities in Fort Worth has organized aid and shelter for more than 200 illegal immigrant minors from Central America. Heather Reynolds, the president of Catholic Charities Fort Worth, told the Fort Worth Star Telegram, "Our nation is facing a humanitarian crisis. We are called to step up."

Most of the youngsters in Fort Worth have reportedly been reunited with relatives. Others were placed in foster care, according to the Telegram.

Reynolds' organization is additionally assisting other charities set up housing facilities for the wave of minors.

Less than one hour away, in Dallas, charities are apparently attempting to train volunteer lawyers who will give legal advice to the migrants. Catholic Charities and Human Rights Initiative of North Texas--a nonprofit--sponsored a training session for people interested in doing pro-bono work for the immigrants.

In addition, Dallas has started a separate juvenile docket to accommodate the cases involving the migrant children, according to the Associated Press.

Charities have played an increasingly critical role in accommodating the young immigrants as federal resources and facilities have become completely overwhelmed. Daniel Tirado, a Rio Grande Valley Border Patrol spokesman, told Breitbart Texas that more than 1,000 individuals are apprehended for illegal entry into the U.S. each day.

In addition to helping to provide shelter and legal advice, volunteers have also been pivotal in providing medical care for the foreigners. Students from the University of Texas-Pan American (UTPA) in the physician assistant program have been helping out at Border Patrol stations, according to Valley Central. Several infections and diseases have already been discovered within the migrant population--most notably, scabies.

Continued... (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/06/21/North-Texas-Charities-Feel-Strain-of-Illegal-Immigrant-Tidal-Wave)

[qh4dotcom]

This one needs to go viral. Maybe the synapses will fire for the dimwitted:

http://clashdaily.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/1011576_425918390858278_1434448673_n-630x444.png

Hmmm...the illegals are not bombing anyone...the wars have cost taxpayers trillions...illegals cost a fraction of that...many illegals don't cost anything.

[puppetmaster]

Freedom for everyone...except us.

Now I have to get back to work to support these POS invaders, Now don't I feel just like a slave...yep
AlLL THE WHILE MY KIDS ASK WHY I AM ALWAYS AT WORK.

[donnay]

Hmmm...the illegals are not bombing anyone...the wars have cost taxpayers trillions...illegals cost a fraction of that...many illegals don't cost anything.


It will cause a war here. Illegals coming into this country wanting to have a better life, I have no problems with. But when we (taxpayers) are forced at the barrel of a gun to pay for them---the cost is more than we can bear.

The agenda has always been to bankrupt the American people so that government can come in and save the day--these illegals will be lambs to the slaughter...the FEMA camps will be ready for them and people will gleefully cheer it on.

The bigger picture is not a pretty one.

[AuH20]

Freedom for everyone...except us.

Now I have to get back to work to support these POS invaders, Now don't I feel just like a slave...yep
AlLL THE WHILE MY KIDS ASK WHY I AM ALWAYS AT WORK.

They were interviewing a young man from El Salvador who told the interviewer point blank that the U.S. would take care of him and his mother. This is madness. We are dead broke as nation, essentially living off credit, yet we are embarking on a social experiment of this magnitude that will most likely fail. And the funny thing is that no one will be any freer after this mass exodus. All parties lose in the long run, of course except for the elites.

[kcchiefs6465]

Well after being robbed to pay for this bullshit, the only logical solution I can think of is to be robbed to pay for the interdiction as well.

Jobs for everyone.

[Danke]

"Everybody Knows"

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows
Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died

Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you've been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you've been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

And everybody knows that it's now or never
Everybody knows that it's me or you
And everybody knows that you live forever
Ah when you've done a line or two
Everybody knows the deal is rotten
Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton
For your ribbons and bows
And everybody knows

And everybody knows that the Plague is coming
Everybody knows that it's moving fast
Everybody knows that the naked man and woman
Are just a shining artifact of the past
Everybody knows the scene is dead
But there's gonna be a meter on your bed
That will disclose
What everybody knows

And everybody knows that you're in trouble
Everybody knows what you've been through
From the bloody cross on top of Calvary
To the beach of Malibu
Everybody knows it's coming apart
Take one last look at this Sacred Heart
Before it blows
And everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Oh everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows

[kcchiefs6465]

Hmmm...the illegals are not bombing anyone...the wars have cost taxpayers trillions...illegals cost a fraction of that...many illegals don't cost anything.
That insults my deep seated, subconsciously blind nationalism.

Invaders are the migrants looking for jobs. The troops are freedom spreaders.

[AuH20]

Hmmm...the illegals are not bombing anyone...the wars have cost taxpayers trillions...illegals cost a fraction of that...many illegals don't cost anything.

It's solely about contracts. Fed gov agreed to pay for the after-career health care of it's servicemen. That's the issue here. The hypocrisy is stunning. Treating non-citizens better than those that are contractually obligated to care for.

[Ender]

That insults my deep seated, subconsciously blind nationalism.

Invaders are the migrants looking for jobs. The troops are freedom spreaders.

Heck yeah! Let's all concentrate on the declining number of illegal "invaders" and get our minds off of the Military/Industrial complex that is trying to rule the world, while we pay for it.

[kcchiefs6465]

It's solely about contracts. Fed gov agreed to pay for the after-career health care of it's servicemen. That's the issue here. The hypocrisy is stunning. Treating non-citizens better than those that are contractually obligated to care for.
It is impossible, you know.

It would be like me signing a contract to change the color of the sky. Sure, some folks might sign that contract. At the end of the day, people would be wise to know that the contract is unfulfillable. Much as they cannot provide fifty years of health care to severely disabled veterans. More so than immigrants across the border, the price to be paid for this empire and century of militaristic adventurism will be what collapses the dollar (a trillion dollars a year, right off the bat). But contracts are contracts, and morality is void when collectives act.

[Carlybee]

Hmmm...the illegals are not bombing anyone...the wars have cost taxpayers trillions...illegals cost a fraction of that...many illegals don't cost anything.

Bullcrap..no one is comparing it to the cost of war but if you don't think they receive entitlements you must not know any. I will repeat ..illegal immigrants cost Texans 12.1 billion dollars annually but I guess if you don't live here it doesn't matter to you.

[Valli6]

Who fed these people during the 22 day trip? Who is supplying the rafts to cross the Rio Grande?
Which country's "armed police" charged them $15.40 to pass - on 8 different occasions?

This Honduran woman is heading for Lexington, Kentucky and talks as though there is already a job ready and waiting for her. :confused:
She says that she has not yet decided if she wants to stay.


...It took them 22 days to travel from their home in Honduras to the US before they were caught by Border Patrol agents just minutes after crossing the Rio Grande in a raft.

“He took everything from us, and he screamed at us and he told us to give him everything,” Maria said in Spanish. “He took our shoe laces, lotions, clothes, sweater and it was really cold. He just left us with the shirt we were wearing and the rest he threw away."

Maria never expected this to be her welcome to the US.

Maria and her son left their home in Honduras and embarked on a dangerous journey through Central America and Mexico.

She faced armed police along the way whom only let her pass if she paid 200 pesos ($15.40).

This happened to her eight times throughout her journey.

One time, Maria was also forced to hide her son so they wouldn't take him from her.

Maria thought the worst was over but she had a rude awakening when she and her son arrived in the Promise Land...
---
...Maria is headed to Lexington, Kentucky to reunite with her brother....

http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=1060927#.U6hQqygdXZY (video at link)

[AuH20]

Who fed these people during the 22 day trip? Who is supplying the rafts to cross the Rio Grande?
Which country's "armed police" charged them $15.40 to pass - on 8 different occasions?

This Honduran woman is heading for Lexington, Kentucky and talks as though there is already a job ready and waiting for her. :confused:
She says that she has not yet decided if she wants to stay.

"No matter what your stances are we are still human beings and so that’s what this is about that’s what we are doing here is being human beings,” Canales said. “Treating people like human beings with dignity. Whatever their immigration status is that doesn't mean they are less of a person."

"Dignity" costs money in real world terms. Money that is robbed at gunpoint. We don't need any more excuses made so they can plunder our incomes even further or debase the currency.

http://svdanneskjold.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/socialism-gun-robbery.jpg

[eduardo89]

The Mexican government is supposedly issuing special 30 day passes for these migrants to pass through their country. That's how orchestrated this whole event is. Normally, the southern Mexican border is near impossible to cross due to the high security there.

Source for that?

[Madison320]

Bullcrap..no one is comparing it to the cost of war but if you don't think they receive entitlements you must not know any. I will repeat ..illegal immigrants cost Texans 12.1 billion dollars annually but I guess if you don't live here it doesn't matter to you.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I'd sure like to see some free market solutions instead of government force solutions. The answer is not to buld a wall and prosecute businesses for hiring illegals (many of those businesses would be bankrupt if they weren't able to hire illegals. at least they are hiring some americans. that's better than none). Anyway there are lots of free market solutions. Mainly we need to remove the cost the government imposes on hiring legal workers. Get rid of the minimum wage. Payroll taxes. Discrimination lawsuits. Obamacare. If it costs the same to hire an illegal worker as a legal one, every single business would hire legal workers. Also if we legalized drugs there would be no need for illegals to enter the US to smuggle drugs.

[Carlybee]

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I'd sure like to see some free market solutions instead of government force solutions. The answer is not to buld a wall and prosecute businesses for hiring illegals (many of those businesses would be bankrupt if they weren't able to hire illegals. at least they are hiring some americans. that's better than none). Anyway there are lots of free market solutions. Mainly we need to remove the cost the government imposes on hiring legal workers. Get rid of the minimum wage. Payroll taxes. Discrimination lawsuits. Obamacare. If it costs the same to hire an illegal worker as a legal one, every single business would hire legal workers. Also if we legalized drugs there would be no need for illegals to enter the US to smuggle drugs.


I would like to see some free market solutions as well but we know that is not going to happen before millions more are over here. It is not fair to have an immigration system where everyone except those who come through the southern border are required to not only comply with Visa regulations but they have to pay through the nose too. Why did my husband have to sign documents with DHS that he would not and could not apply or receive any sort of assistance as well as pay around 3 grand to immigrate legally from Canada while the govt is actively encouraging illegals from the south to come here ?

[AuH20]

I would like to see some free market solutions as well but we know that is not going to happen before millions more are over here. It is not fair to have an immigration system where everyone except those who come through the southern border are required to not only comply with Visa regulations but they have to pay through the nose too. Why did my husband have to sign documents with DHS that he would not and could not apply or receive any sort of assistance as well as pay around 3 grand to immigrate legally from Canada while the govt is actively encouraging illegals from the south to come here ?

We're not going to see free market solutions until the government crashes and is beaten to a pulp. That's just a fact.

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=c6d7c0050b912fbc917a46d6709d38bd&tab=core&tabmode=list&=s=opportunity&mode=form&id=c6d7c0050b912fbc917a46d6709d38bd&tab=core&tabmode=list&



Escort Services for Unaccompanied Alien Children
Solicitation Number: BERKS-RFI
Agency: Department of Homeland Security
Office: Immigration & Customs Enforcement
Location: ICE-OAQ-DM



More at the link

There has been an increasing influx of children coming across the border since at least 2010 (while total net immigration has been zero). The position was advertised at least three years after that (January 2014) to help deal with the kids already here- not to bring in more of them. NY Times article from 2012 describing some of the problems: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/us/more-young-illegal-immigrants-face-deportation.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

[Carlybee]

We're not going to see free market solutions until the government crashes and is beaten to a pulp. That's just a fact.

Yep and meanwhile.....

[Constitutional Paulicy]

The way we've gone about caring for these people appears to be better than they were capable of caring for themselves. Free room and board, food, air conditioning, transportation to their desired destination. If Mexico granted them visas, then I'd send them back across the border. Once their Mexican visas expire, its Mexico's problem. If they traveled though Mexico illegally then Mexico can ship them back. Seems their border patrol failed at their duty. Just keep sending them across the border until they get the message.

The red carpet treatment is going to encourage a flood of immigrants. Harsher treatment will discourage this.

[Ender]

I would like to see some free market solutions as well but we know that is not going to happen before millions more are over here. It is not fair to have an immigration system where everyone except those who come through the southern border are required to not only comply with Visa regulations but they have to pay through the nose too. Why did my husband have to sign documents with DHS that he would not and could not apply or receive any sort of assistance as well as pay around 3 grand to immigrate legally from Canada while the govt is actively encouraging illegals from the south to come here ?

Fair? Name me anything that's fair in gov nowadays?

Social Security? Us young'ns should pay for the old guys' retirement, because SS is a Ponzi Scheme?

Madison is on the nose.

Free market has to start somewhere- asking for more laws to curtail everyone's freedom is NOT the answer- making major changes in Big Gov, is.


Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but I'd sure like to see some free market solutions instead of government force solutions. The answer is not to buld a wall and prosecute businesses for hiring illegals (many of those businesses would be bankrupt if they weren't able to hire illegals. at least they are hiring some americans. that's better than none). Anyway there are lots of free market solutions. Mainly we need to remove the cost the government imposes on hiring legal workers. Get rid of the minimum wage. Payroll taxes. Discrimination lawsuits. Obamacare. If it costs the same to hire an illegal worker as a legal one, every single business would hire legal workers. Also if we legalized drugs there would be no need for illegals to enter the US to smuggle drugs.

[Madison320]

I would like to see some free market solutions as well but we know that is not going to happen before millions more are over here. It is not fair to have an immigration system where everyone except those who come through the southern border are required to not only comply with Visa regulations but they have to pay through the nose too. Why did my husband have to sign documents with DHS that he would not and could not apply or receive any sort of assistance as well as pay around 3 grand to immigrate legally from Canada while the govt is actively encouraging illegals from the south to come here ?

One problem is that, for the most part, latin immigrants vote almost exclusively for the democratic party. So the democratic party wants to get spanish speaking immigrants here and voting by any means necessary.

But I'd still like to hear free market solutions. The problem is the republican party OPPOSES all of the free market solutions.

I'm afraid we will solve the problem by turning the US into a socialistic nightmare where no one is going to want to sneak in. From what I've heard that is already starting to happen a little bit.

Do you support laws against hiring illegal immigrants?

[FloralScent]

Yes plus paying to feed them, house them and help them find their relatives but most people here think that's just fine and if you disagree you are not for liberty.

"Most people" are Communist infiltrators.

[kcchiefs6465]

Fair? Name me anything that's fair in gov nowadays?

Social Security? Us young'ns should pay for the old guys' retirement, because SS is a Ponzi Scheme?

Madison is on the nose.

Free market has to start somewhere- asking for more laws to curtail everyone's freedom is NOT the answer- making major changes in Big Gov, is.
Between that and the MIC, two trillion dollars gone.

As in, two thousand billion dollars.

http://i.imgur.com/HVZlDuF.jpg?1

Unfunded liabilities in the dozens of trillions. Ten dozen trillion by 2035.

To say there is no comparison between the invading counterfeiters of DC who on whim debase the currency 65 billion dollars a month, who rob the entirety of this country of every penny they're able to pay for death and destruction along with their ongoing global hegemony, and the migrants from the South would be such an understatement words are troubling to find. It's an unfunny joke how some speak with such certainty that I ought be robbed and able to purchase less and less yearly because of some faulty and shortsighted 'obligation' to someone. Nothing is more progressive in nature than such an implicit endorsement of the social contract and collectivist will.

The dollar will collapse. And not because of poor peasants from Latin America, either.

[AuH20]

One problem is that, for the most part, latin immigrants vote almost exclusively for the democratic party. So the democratic party wants to get spanish speaking immigrants here and voting by any means necessary.

But I'd still like to hear free market solutions. The problem is the republican party OPPOSES all of the free market solutions.

I'm afraid we will solve the problem by turning the US into a socialistic nightmare where no one is going to want to sneak in. From what I've heard that is already starting to happen a little bit.

Do you support laws against hiring illegal immigrants?

Here's the problem. Corporate America became so dependent on the Federal Reserve that they are now directly suffering from it's malfeasance. As a result of rising overhead costs (price contraction has been basically outlawed), they have decided that cheap, immigrant labor is the only remedy for their declining profits. Immigrant labor is a temporary relief to the monster they created. I'm of the mind that Corporate America should endure what the rest of country deals with on a daily basis.

[Zippyjuan]

What does the "big picture" look like?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/PH-unauthorized-immigrants-1-01.png

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/23/chart-of-the-day-is-illegal-immigration-on-the-rise-again/

[Carlybee]

Fair? Name me anything that's fair in gov nowadays?

Social Security? Us young'ns should pay for the old guys' retirement, because SS is a Ponzi Scheme?

Madison is on the nose.

Free market has to start somewhere- asking for more laws to curtail everyone's freedom is NOT the answer- making major changes in Big Gov, is.


Me wonders why thou doth protest so much FOR illegal immigration.

[Carlybee]

What does the "big picture" look like?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/PH-unauthorized-immigrants-1-01.png

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/23/chart-of-the-day-is-illegal-immigration-on-the-rise-again/

Old news now

[Carlybee]

One problem is that, for the most part, latin immigrants vote almost exclusively for the democratic party. So the democratic party wants to get spanish speaking immigrants here and voting by any means necessary.

But I'd still like to hear free market solutions. The problem is the republican party OPPOSES all of the free market solutions.

I'm afraid we will solve the problem by turning the US into a socialistic nightmare where no one is going to want to sneak in. From what I've heard that is already starting to happen a little bit.

Do you support laws against hiring illegal immigrants?


Laws against hiring illegal immigrants don't work if they are paid under the table or if they themselves become independent contractors. As for eVerify...well just another layer of bureaucracy...I would rather stem the tide. I know someone who is illegal who makes 80k a year as a paint contractor...her 5 kids are all on free medical and free lunches. I don't know how she slides by the tax return thing.


Oh and the gang members don't work..they do steal..if you can call that a profession. Drug war isn't ending in my lifetime.

[Zippyjuan]

Illegal aliens are not eligible for food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security.

[Ender]

Me wonders why thou doth protest so much FOR illegal immigration.

A) Because I know a lot of Mexicans who are the hardest workers on the planet.
B) Because this is all blown out of reality; the immigration rate is DOWN.
C) I do NOT want more laws restricting MY freedom.
D) I'm a Cherokee and y'all look like illegal immigrants to me. ;)

We need to fix what is broken- not break more of America with more stupid laws that will effect citizens as much, or more, as immigrants.

[AuH20]

Illegal aliens are not eligible for food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security.

But current law allows American-born, adult children of illegal aliens to seek green cards for their parents and siblings. You could drive a 12 wheeler through this loophole.

[AuH20]

Screwed with a capital S!!

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-public-benefits-can-green-card-holder-receive.html




Supplemental Security Income (SSI)

SSI is a federal benefits program that provides cash assistance to low-income seniors (65 years or older) and low-income disabled children and adults.

Permanent residents cannot apply for SSI benefits until they have lived in the U.S. for five years. After five years in the U.S., a permanent resident will qualify for SSI only if he or she has credit for 40 quarters of work. There are special rules about how to count the 40 quarters, including:

Only work in the U.S. counts towards the 40-quarter requirement.

If the person receives any “means-tested public benefits” during a quarter, no credit will be given for that quarter.

The work of parents performed while a permanent resident is under age 18 can be counted, and

The work of a spouse performed during the marriage (as long as there was no divorce or annulment) can be counted.

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF)

TANF is a federal program that provides money to states to reduce poverty. Low-income families that qualify receive cash assistance, but must also participate in job training and other programs designed to eliminate dependence on cash assistance.

Permanent residents who have maintained their lawful resident status for five years can qualify for TANF, assuming they meet other program requirements. Even if an LPR meets general eligibility requirements, however, it is possible that the “deeming rules” described above will prevent the person from receiving TANF.

Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)

SNAP is a federal program that provides money to states so that they can help people with limited income purchase food. People who qualify for SNAP receive electronic debit cards that they can use to purchase groceries.

Permanent residents who are under 18 years of age may qualify for SNAP benefits. A permanent resident who is older than 18 will qualify for SNAP only if he or she:

has been in lawful permanent resident status for five years

is receiving “assistance” based on a disability (but only if the rules used to make the disability determination are as strict as SSI rules regarding disability determinations), and

has credit for 40 quarters of work.

As with TANF, the “deeming rules” described above may result in ineligibility.

Medicaid (Full-Scope and Emergency)

Medicaid is a health coverage program for low-income individuals, children, families, elderly, and the disabled. Each state runs a Medicaid program, though many give it a different name.

Two types of opportunities for medical care are offered under Medicaid: Emergency Medicaid and Full-Scope Medicaid. Permanent residents generally qualify for Emergency Medicaid without exception, assuming they meet the general, non-immigration-related eligibility requirements.

But to qualify for Full-Scope Medicaid, permanent residents must:

have been a permanent resident for five years, and

be in a federal foster care program, or

be a child under 21 AND live in a state that provides Full-Scope Medicaid to permanent residents, or

be pregnant AND live in a state that provides Full-Scope Medicaid to permanent residents.

Also, the “deeming rules” described above may apply.

To find out whether your state provides Full-Scope Medicaid to permanent residents who are under 21 or pregnant, contact your local, county or state public benefits office.

Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP)

CHIP provides health coverage to children living in families that cannot get Medicaid because their income is too high, but do not have enough money to pay for private insurance.

To qualify for CHIP, permanent residents must:

have been a permanent resident for five years, and

be a child under 21 AND live in a state that provides Full-Scope Medicaid to permanent residents, or

be pregnant AND live in a state that provides Full-Scope Medicaid to permanent residents

The “deeming rules” described above may apply.

Medicare (Hospitalization/Free and Buy-In)

There are two types of Medicare: Hospitalization/Free and Buy-in.

Hospitalization/free Medicare provides health benefits to people who have worked in the U.S. and paid Social Security taxes long enough and are:

65 years or older

Disabled, or

Facing permanent kidney failure

Persons who have not worked long enough may qualify for the “buy-in” option.

Hospitalization/Free Medicare is generally available to all U.S. permanent residents, assuming they meet the other general, non-immigration-related eligibility requirements.

Buy-in Medicare is available to permanent residents only if they have held this status for at least five years.

Federally Funded Public Housing and “Section 8” Housing

Section 8 is a voucher program that gives low-income individuals and families money so that they can rent housing in the private market. Federally funded public housing provides government-owned housing to low-income individuals, families, the disabled, and the elderly. Usually, the federally funded public housing is owned or managed by a local government's “housing authority.”

Permanent residents are generally eligible for federally funded public housing and “Section 8.”

If there is one permanent resident in the household and other people living in the home who are not eligible for federal public housing or Section 8, the rent will probably be prorated so that the only person receiving the federal housing benefit is the permanent resident.
Social Security Benefits

Permanent residents are generally eligible for Social Security, which provides retirement payments based on work and earnings history. But one important eligibility criteria is that if the permanent resident's Social Security number was issued on or after January 1, 2004, the number must have been valid for work or the work for which the permanent resident is seeking credit must have been performed while the LPR was temporarily in the U.S. and had status as a businessperson or crewman.

Expect the Public Benefits Agency to Verify LPR Status

Usually, a permanent resident can simply show a green card to prove the required immigration status. But the public benefits agency may also get in touch with immigration authorities to verify the applicant's immigration status.

When the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) receives this sort of request to check on immigration status, DHS is not supposed to use the information to start removal (deportation) proceedings – except where the permanent resident has committed certain crimes.

If you have been charged with or convicted of any crimes (even if you received “diversion” or other alternative sentencing programs and even if any convictions have been expunged or “cleaned” from your record) you should, therefore, talk to an attorney before applying for public benefits.

[kahless]

83% of the minors coming over are male and age 14+. If they are not deported and we have that unbalanced poor demographic it is only a matter of time they become an insurgent army with in our borders. People think it cannot happen here but that is a common theme throughout history and today outside the US.

[Carlybee]

Illegal aliens are not eligible for food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security.


Doesn't mean they aren't getting them



http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/06/22/Prevent-illegal-immigrants-from-receiving-federal-benefits

[Zippyjuan]

Screwed with a capital S!!

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-public-benefits-can-green-card-holder-receive.html


Thanks for the link. SSI is only available to LEGAL residents after at least five years. Same for SNAP. TANIF is not payable to :
Ineligible or illegal aliens. http://www.dphhs.mt.gov/hcsd/tanf/tanfeligibility.shtml

CHIP? From the link in post above:

To qualify for CHIP, permanent residents must:

have been a permanent resident for five years, and
Illegal immigrants are not "permanent residents".

[Carlybee]

A) Because I know a lot of Mexicans who are the hardest workers on the planet.
B) Because this is all blown out of reality; the immigration rate is DOWN.
C) I do NOT want more laws restricting MY freedom.
D) I'm a Cherokee and y'all look like illegal immigrants to me. ;)

We need to fix what is broken- not break more of America with more stupid laws that will effect citizens as much, or more, as immigrants.

I'm part Chickasaw...my ggrandmother is on the Dawes Roll..so bite me. You are looking at old statistics..what is in question here is this current influx that is costing my state 12 billion dollars a year. We do t need more laws...we need to enforce existing laws. Oh and yes there are many lovely people from down there but there are also 100 000 gangs in Texas and Los Zetas is recruiting from illegals and from prisons.

[Zippyjuan]

Doesn't mean they aren't getting them



http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/06/22/Prevent-illegal-immigrants-from-receiving-federal-benefits

There is greater fraud among US Citizens but yes, fraud does occur. And they do pay taxes (unless they are paid in cash).


The benefit multiplies over the long haul. As the baby boomers retire, the post-boom generation’s burden to finance their retirement is greatly alleviated by undocumented immigrants. Stephen Goss, chief actuary for the Social Security Administration, told me that undocumented workers contribute about $15 billion a year to Social Security through payroll taxes. They only take out $1 billion (very few undocumented workers are eligible to receive benefits). Over the years, undocumented workers have contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magazine/do-illegal-immigrants-actually-hurt-the-us-economy.html?pagewanted=all

[Carlybee]

Thanks for the link. SSI is only available to LEGAL residents after at least five years. Same for SNAP. TANIF is not payable to : http://www.dphhs.mt.gov/hcsd/tanf/tanfeligibility.shtml

CHIP? From the link in post above:

Illegal immigrants are not "permanent residents".


Yes because they never use faked documents and social services always does such a bang up job on verification. Rofl

[Carlybee]

There is greater fraud among US Citizens but yes, fraud does occur.

Really? Is it not bad enough to get stuck with the bill for our own fraudsters?

[Carlybee]

Good Lord..the naïveté is staggering. I've had these same debates with liberals and with Mexicans who want to retake Texas and who think we should give them reparations.

[Dianne]

It will cause a war here. Illegals coming into this country wanting to have a better life, I have no problems with. But when we (taxpayers) are forced at the barrel of a gun to pay for them---the cost is more than we can bear.

The agenda has always been to bankrupt the American people so that government can come in and save the day--these illegals will be lambs to the slaughter...the FEMA camps will be ready for them and people will gleefully cheer it on.

The bigger picture is not a pretty one.

A few border patrol agents have pointed out the serious diseases, including tb, that are being brought into the country. It seems their own countries are more than happy to get rid of their worst. The agents are now under a gag order to keep their mouths shut. From what I have read, these people are either being sent by bus or plane to the deep interior of the U.S. at taxpayer's expense ... probably to live out their lives on food stamps/welfare/ disability/free housing for the rest of their lives ... similar to Obama's Aunt, an illegal that is still sponging off us.

[libertyjam]

Illegal, but Not Undocumented
Identity Theft, Document Fraud, and Illegal Employment

By Ronald W. Mortensen June 2009

http://cis.org/mortensen/identitytheft
(http://cis.org/mortensen/identitytheft)
Why is it that Illegal Aliens Get Free Food Stamps, Health Insurance and Pay No Taxes?
http://thelawdictionary.org/article/why-is-it-that-illegal-aliens-get-free-food-stamps-health-insurance-and-pay-no-taxes/

Americans who are struggling to survive due to high unemployment and low wages may be asking why illegal aliens receive benefits from state and federal governments. Federal law does prevent illegal aliens from receiving benefits meant for American citizens. The only benefit that illegal aliens are allowed is emergency medical care.

Just because illegal aliens are not legally entitled to these benefits does not mean they do not apply for them. Yes. It is true that illegal aliens have received grants, professional accreditations, loans, WIC, disability, public housing, college educations, food stamps, unemployment benefits, and tax credits from state and federal agencies.
...
Another way illegal aliens enter the U.S. is by using forged documents. If people at port authorities (http://thelawdictionary.org/authorities/), international airports, and border crossings are not catching forged documents, foreign citizens have just entered the U.S. without question.
Once illegal immigrants arrive, they buy forged documents saying they are U.S. citizens. The only way to stop this is to crack down on those who make and sell forged documents. If employers, state, and federal agencies cannot tell a forged document from a real document, then of course illegal aliens will receive benefits.


Law Dictionary: Why is it that Illegal Aliens Get Free Food Stamps, Health Insurance and Pay No Taxes? (http://thelawdictionary.org/article/why-is-it-that-illegal-aliens-get-free-food-stamps-health-insurance-and-pay-no-taxes/#ixzz35UdiKGjU)

http://www.abc2news.com/news/local-news/illegal-immigrants-got-fake-green-cards-social-security-cards-and-drivers-licenses

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/13105209/ns/us_news-security/t/fake-immigration-id-sellers-unfazed-threats/

[Carlybee]

Just a little primer on Los Zetos coming to a town near you.


http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/7/ruthless-mexican-drug-cartel-recruiting-in-the-us/?page=all

[Zippyjuan]

Yes- immigrants are all welfare using illness laden drug smuggling baby making liberal voting gang bangers.

[eduardo89]

Just a little primer on Los Zetos coming to a town near you.

At least get their name right. It's Los Zetas.

[Carlybee]

Yes- immigrants are all welfare using illness laden drug smuggling baby making liberal voting gang bangers.

No one is saying they all are and illegal immigrants are not immigrants who have chosen to immigrate here legally. Granted I believe it should be an easier process having seen it first hand. No one is saying they all leach off the system but enough do. No one is saying they are all criminals but enough are. Their home countries need to get their shit together and stop leaching off ours.

[Carlybee]

At least get their name right. It's Los Zetas.


It was a typo. Don't be an ass fetus.

[Madison320]

Here's the problem. Corporate America became so dependent on the Federal Reserve that they are now directly suffering from it's malfeasance. As a result of rising overhead costs (price contraction has been basically outlawed), they have decided that cheap, immigrant labor is the only remedy for their declining profits. Immigrant labor is a temporary relief to the monster they created. I'm of the mind that Corporate America should endure what the rest of country deals with on a daily basis.

I agree that businesses should have to live with the same laws the rest of us do. The problem is that businesses have MUCH more onerous laws to deal with than common citizens. For example a business owner can't discrimnate, employees can.

[Madison320]

Laws against hiring illegal immigrants don't work if they are paid under the table or if they themselves become independent contractors. As for eVerify...well just another layer of bureaucracy...I would rather stem the tide.

If you believe in liberty we should not have laws against business owners hiring illegals. If we're going to have laws against non-citizens entering the country, the government should enforce those laws at the border or in public areas. Business should not have to bear that burden. Businesses should not be required to prove their employees are legal in a free country. That would be like having the government enter your house and demand proof that everyone living there was legal.

[Carlybee]

If you believe in liberty we should not have laws against business owners hiring illegals. If we're going to have laws against non-citizens entering the country, the government should enforce those laws at the border or in public areas. Business should not have to bear that burden. Businesses should not be required to prove their employees are legal in a free country. That would be like having the government enter your house and demand proof that everyone living there was legal.

They don't...eVerify is voluntary. They do have to fill out an I9 form when someone is hired which requires certain forms of identification and that is a labor law so good luck getting rid of the Dept. Of Labor. All these things sound good in theory but would not work unless you get rid of the government in total. Oh and please tell me about this free country thing. My concern is with the outpouring of state funds to feed, cloth and house people who have no stake whatsoever in taking personal responsibility for themselves. It's bad enough legal citizens do it. Again why do we have to pay out 12 billion dollars a year in Texas and only recoup 1.7 billion for illegal aliens? That's a loss and cost to taxpayers of over 10 billion dollars A YEAR. Does your state pay out 10 billion dollars a year?

[Carlybee]

Once again.



Rothbard made distinctions between the Nation State vs The
Individual State



Rothbard from Nations by Consent: Decomposing the Nation State




Rothbard from National Determination








Tom Woods
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/liberty-and-immigration

If you see Texas or any other state as a contractual community able to determine their own immigration policy then the individual state is itself the individual.

Unfortunately our leaders in the state by agreeing to become part of "The State", ie the United States of America, have agreed to acquiesce to national laws, hence why Article IV Section IV of the Constitution is what forces the Nation State to in turn be obligated to provide for the protection of the border. Where we split s what determines invasion. I think there can be non military invasion that still serves the purpose and can carry the same threat of loss to life and property as a military invasion in the esoteric sense. Obviously most on here disagree but I think it's all in the distinction of details.




In addition, and bear in mind this was from 1995


.

Thomas Woods

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/liberty-and-immigration

[Carlybee]

//

[Zippyjuan]

All these things sound good in theory but would not work unless you get rid of the government in total.

Which would allow anybody to come anytime they wanted to and do whatever they want when they get here.

Interesting study I found:
http://www.workingimmigrants.com/2006/12/new_texas_study_says_illegal_i.html


New Texas study says illegal immigrants are net benefit to economy

The Texas Controller, Carolyn Strayhorn, issued on 12/9 what she calls the first comprehensive financial analysis by a state of the impact of undocumented immigrants on a state's budget and economy, looking at gross state product, revenues generated, taxes paid and the cost of state services. Thanks to Cliff Treese for alerting me to it.

A supporter of a guest worker program, Stayhorn concludes that the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services they received. However, local governments bore the burden of $1.44 billion in uncompensated health care costs and local law enforcement costs not paid for by the state.

[Brian4Liberty]

Yes- immigrants are all welfare using illness laden drug smuggling baby making liberal voting gang bangers.

Stop being so collectivist. It depends upon which immigrants you are talking about. Get your propaganda straight. Here's a guide:

- If they come across the southern border, they are the hardest working libertarians on the face of the planet.
- If they come in from Asia or South Asia, they are the smartest, best educated and hardest working libertarians on the face of the planet.
- If they come from northern Europe, they are white supremacists.
- If they come from Southern Europe, North Africa, or the Middle-East, they are Muslim terrists.
- If they come from Canada, they are just hosers.

[Carlybee]

Which would allow anybody to come anytime they wanted to and do whatever they want when they get here.

Interesting study I found:
http://www.workingimmigrants.com/2006/12/new_texas_study_says_illegal_i.html


Wow from the NY Times no less and from 2006. Keep trying... You're doing a great job propping up the liberal agenda. We in Texas will do whatever we have to do.

Oh here's an interesting study. http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-texans


Here's the pdf http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/research-pub/TexasCostStudy_2014.pdf

[Zippyjuan]

Of course that comes from an anti-immigration site.
One article criticizes border security while indicating that border apprehensions are down by 80% from their peak (a point they gloss over).


Controlling our borders was not always as great a problem as it is today. In 1965, the number of aliens apprehended by the Border Patrol coming across the border was 110,000. That number rose to more than one million annually by 1977 and has only ebbed below that level since 2007. Most of those apprehensions have been along the U.S. Mexican border. They have accounted for more than 97 percent of apprehensions until recently, and even with the recent drop they still have been more than 96 percent of total apprehensions.

Reality:
http://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/PH-unauthorized-immigrants-1-02.png
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/23/chart-of-the-day-is-illegal-immigration-on-the-rise-again/


The extent of border control and continued illegal entry of aliens and contraband and the extent to which it represents a national security treat remain a major issue in the ongoing immigration reform debate. The proponents of an amnesty for the existing illegal alien population attempt to convince lawmakers that there is now sufficient border control overcome concerns that their proposal will lead to a further influx of illegal aliens as did the general amnesty for illegal aliens in 1986.

MMmm. Treats. Makes me hungry!

Keep in mind that about half of all illegal immigrants also entered the country legally. A completely sealed border (which is impossible) would at best keep half away.

[Carson]

I'm convinced that this is just the sort of thing the central banks love. Not only do they make money loaning the money to pay for such programs, it's also a way of getting the things they want done, done by having politicians will to spend taxpayers money to do it.

I'm also convinced a lot of money percolates from one place to another to see these special politicians get elected.


Remember the Solyndra money that went into Solyndra and then Solyndra made contributions to both parties.

Solyndra.


The argument for or against illegal immigration can be boiled down to two concepts.

Either you live by the rule of law or you don't.

The don'ts even want new laws for them to not follow!

Most of the do's would settle for seeing the laws we have enforced.

[cajuncocoa]

Me wonders why thou doth protest so much FOR illegal immigration.
I'm going to take a guess that those who protest in favor of illegal immigration are anarchists who don't think we should have laws (any laws) in the first place.

That's fine. And I'm not saying I'm opposed to the anarchist philosophy....I actually embrace it more than oppose it.

But the problem is, as I see it....you have to do things in stages. You can't have millions of illegal poor people coming to this country in order to take more hand-outs: crippling our already crumbling educational system.... overburdening a health care system that is going to be overwhelmed with Obamacare in the coming years....think of any other social entitlement program, and it will be even more strained than it already is...and all of this at taxpayer expense.

When we can convince the American people that we need to scale way back on these entitlement programs, then we can talk about open borders. When we're ready to say to everyone who comes into this country "Welcome. Now get to work, and enjoy the freedom the U.S. has to offer!" then and only then will it work.

Until then, we must secure our borders.

That's my opinion.

[LibForestPaul]

The Mexican government is supposedly issuing special 30 day passes for these migrants to pass through their country. That's how orchestrated this whole event is. Normally, the southern Mexican border is near impossible to cross due to the high security there.

I wonder if Mexicans can make a little extra by building high speed rail from South to Northern border, non-stop.

[Carlybee]

I'm going to take a guess that those who protest in favor of illegal immigration are anarchists who don't think we should have laws (any laws) in the first place.

That's fine. And I'm not saying I'm opposed to the anarchist philosophy....I actually embrace it more than oppose it.

But the problem is, as I see it....you have to do things in stages. You can't have millions of illegal poor people coming to this country in order to take more hand-outs: crippling our already crumbling educational system.... overburdening a health care system that is going to be overwhelmed with Obamacare in the coming years....think of any other social entitlement program, and it will be even more strained than it already is...and all of this at taxpayer expense.

When we can convince the American people that we need to scale way back on these entitlement programs, then we can talk about open borders. When we're ready to say to everyone who comes into this country "Welcome. Now get to work, and enjoy the freedom the U.S. has to offer!" then and only then will it work.

Until then, we must secure our borders.

That's my opinion.


And that's basically what I am saying. Either we protect our borders or we go all out Lord of the Flies...and this country is not ready for that without considerable loss of life. The PTB want us to overpopulate and keep cutting the pie thinner and thinner until the middle class is once and for all decimated.

[TheCount]

Source for that?

Sources? Facts? We don't need no steenking facts! We have feelings! I feel like there are a lot of illegal immigrants, and I feel like they are taking my jerbs and my tax money, therefore it is true and a problem.


Also, some people in the media said so and that means it's real.

[Carlybee]

Sources? Facts? We don't need no steenking facts! We have feelings! I feel like there are a lot of illegal immigrants, and I feel like they are taking my jerbs and my tax money, therefore it is true and a problem.


Also, some people in the media said so and that means it's real.


Just like some FEEL that the poor, hardworking immigrants are being shat upon by the mean ol people who don't want to support them monetarily. Think of the children! I've posted plenty of sources in various threads including articles from people like Ron Paul supporting the right to protect our sovereignty.

[Carson]

Here is an old list of money going to La Raza.

Keep in mind we didn't have any money to give and had to borrow from the central bank that counterfeited it up and devalued our currency.




FY 2000

Recipient Name

State

Federal Funding (for this search)

CENTRO CULTURAL DE LA RAZA

California$89,083

LA CASA DE LA RAZA

California$10,000

LA CLINICA DE LA RAZA

California$2,994,422

LA RAZA

District of Columbia$1,196,000

LA RAZA NEWSPAPER

Illinois$675,000

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA

District of Columbia$3,045,062

NATIONAL COUNCIL ON LA RAZA

District of Columbia$70,500

PLAZA DE LA RAZA INC.

California$20,000


Federal funding for the year : $8,100,067


FY 2001

Recipient Name

State

Federal Funding (for this search)

LA CLINICA DE LA RAZA

California$3,504,422

LA RAZA

District of Columbia$896,000

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA

District of Columbia$2,337,997

NATIONAL COUNCIL ON LA RAZA

District of Columbia$514,049

PLAZA DE LA RAZA INC.

California$18,000

Federal funding for the year : $7,270,468



FY 2002

Recipient Name

State

Federal Funding (for this search)

LA CLINICA DE LA RAZA

California$7,516,195

LA RAZA

District of Columbia$768,878

LA RAZA FARM LABOR LA RAZA FARM LABOR

Wisconsin$85,260

LA RAZA LLP AND UNIDO LLP

Wisconsin$206,250

NATIONAL COUNCIL LA RAZA

District of Columbia$100,000

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA

District of Columbia$1,034,733

NATIONAL COUNCIL ON LA RAZA

District of Columbia$180,000

PLAZA DE LA RAZA INC.

California$20,000

Federal funding for the year : $9,911,316


FY 2003

Recipient Name

State

Federal Funding (for this search)

LA CLINICA DE LA RAZA

California$4,987,360

LA RAZA

District of Columbia$873,247

LA RAZA AUTO REPAIR INC

Florida$3,000

NATIONAL COUNCIL LA RAZA

District of Columbia$9,542

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA

District of Columbia$1,228,123

Federal funding for the year : $7,101,272


FY 2004

Recipient Name

State

Federal Funding (for this search)

CENTRO LEGAL DE LA RAZA

California$150,000

DISCOTECA LA RAZA

North Carolina$25,000

LA CLINICA DE LA RAZA

California$5,499,626

LA RAZA CENTRO LEGAL, INC.

California$62,500

LA RAZA GALERIA POSADA

California$74,568

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA

District of Columbia$2,928,695

Federal funding for the year : $8,740,389


FY 2005

Recipient Name

State

Federal Funding (for this search)

GULF COAST COUNCIL OF LA RAZA

Texas$200,000

LA CLINICA DE LA RAZA

California$5,439,732

LA RAZA CENTRO LEGAL, INC.

California$97,500

NATIONAL COUNCIL LA RAZA

District of Columbia$-7,345 **

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA

District of Columbia$1,509,850

SUPER LA RAZA

California$353,000

Federal funding for the year : $7,592,737

From an article posted here;

http://www.alipac.us/f9/dont-use-my-tax-money-buy-americas-hangin-rope-56948/

[HOLLYWOOD]

The Intention is to overwhelm the system, justify more spending... does anyone think these people give a shit more about the US Constitution or the freebees from Uncle Sugar and the Socialist States? These people will not fight the tyranny of the government hand that gives them free shit. This is the secret policies to continue to lower the standard of living in the U.S., all the while, inject more and more people to maintain the PONZI/PYRAMID schemes.


http://i58.tinypic.com/2zzutk3.png

[Christian Liberty]

I'm going to take a guess that those who protest in favor of illegal immigration are anarchists who don't think we should have laws (any laws) in the first place.

That's fine. And I'm not saying I'm opposed to the anarchist philosophy....I actually embrace it more than oppose it.

But the problem is, as I see it....you have to do things in stages. You can't have millions of illegal poor people coming to this country in order to take more hand-outs: crippling our already crumbling educational system.... overburdening a health care system that is going to be overwhelmed with Obamacare in the coming years....think of any other social entitlement program, and it will be even more strained than it already is...and all of this at taxpayer expense.

When we can convince the American people that we need to scale way back on these entitlement programs, then we can talk about open borders. When we're ready to say to everyone who comes into this country "Welcome. Now get to work, and enjoy the freedom the U.S. has to offer!" then and only then will it work.

Until then, we must secure our borders.

That's my opinion.

I don't think the bold is accurate. The Rothbardian anarchists at LRC (who I mostly identify with, though I defend similar positions with a different epistemological justification) certainly believe laws should exist. Its the monopoly on law-making and law enforcement that we disagree with.

Regarding immigration, its never been my biggest issue because I just don't feel like it affects me that much. I think its completely appropriate to deny these people government handouts (while such handouts exist, though they shouldn't.) But I don't think its appropriate to deny them the right to work in an arrangement they agree to with some private employer. I see absolutely no good reason we can't have our cake and eat it too here. Political partisanship would be the only reason.

Allow free immigration, but limit government handouts of any kind (while they still exist) only to people who were born in the US.

Problem solved.

[donnay]

The Intention is to overwhelm the system, justify more spending... does anyone think these people give a shit more about the US Constitution or the freebees from Uncle Sugar and the Socialist States? These people will not fight the tyranny of the government hand that gives them free shit. This is the secret policies to continue to lower the standard of living in the U.S., all the while, inject more and more people to maintain the PONZI/PYRAMID schemes.


http://i58.tinypic.com/2zzutk3.png

^^^This!

That is what so many people cannot wrap their heads around...this illegal hijacked government want to put Americans in the poor house.

I have absolutely no problem with people from other countries coming to America to search for a better life. I have a problem when they come here and I am forced to pay for them and their families better life!

[AuH20]

The Intention is to overwhelm the system, justify more spending... does anyone think these people give a shit more about the US Constitution or the freebees from Uncle Sugar and the Socialist States? These people will not fight the tyranny of the government hand that gives them free shit. This is the secret policies to continue to lower the standard of living in the U.S., all the while, inject more and more people to maintain the PONZI/PYRAMID schemes.


http://i58.tinypic.com/2zzutk3.png

What's funny is that United States was intentionally created as a sanctuary to escape from the mob mentality which perpetrated the empires of old. Now we're simply turning our back on the design and letting the dregs of humanity in, until there will be nothing left but that which exists outside our borders. It's already bad enough that we are saddled with these traitorous elites and now let's augment the mob factor by 10.

Freedom is actively being suppressed in this country. The answer to our woes is more people who self-identify as a specific group from a lower socioeconomic class. You have to be a world class idiot to believe this ruse.

[Carlybee]

Well I for one am tired of trying to convince people. To the open borders people be careful what you wish for...because it's here. Keep slicing the pie.

[Ender]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/02/becky-akers/illegal-immigrants/


What Will Jesus Do?
By Becky Akers
February 10, 2012

Like all wars, the one the Feds wage on our freedom of movement groans with ruined lives, human agony, and casualties.

Many of those horrors are on display at the airports, as the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) sexually assaults, irradiates, harasses, and steals from passengers. And though most of the witnesses to these atrocities used to claim that the agency only needed more money and power to transform its inept brutes and sociopaths into efficient Warriors on Terror, increasing numbers now admit such change is impossible. Thanks to the TSA's depredations, they understand that the Warriors threaten us far more than any free-lance bad guys ever could.

Let's hope such realization dawns in another theater of the War on Movement, the one at the borders. There the comrades-in-arms of the TSA's brutes and sociopaths sexually assault, irradiate, harass, and steal from American citizens — and the occasional "illegal" immigrant. Somehow, their persecution of the latter justifies their abuse of the former for far too many taxpayers.

Among the persecuted is 35-year-old Jesus Navarro. He's one of those bold folks all of freedom's friends should admire, a guy who refused to obey an unconstitutional law prohibiting people from stepping over an imaginary line on the ground.

Alas, surprising numbers of Constitutionalists who cry "Foul!" at imperialism, the PATRIOT Act, the NDAA of 2012 and other violations actually urge the Feds to eviscerate the highest law of the land when it comes to immigration. Nothing in the Constitution empowers the central government to patrol the country's borders — and let those who dispute that cite the article and clause supporting their position. If they can, they're one up on the Supreme Court of the 1870's and 1880's: when its clowns invented an "interest" for the Feds in immigration, they appealed to every authority but the Constitution.

Over the next decades, the Injustices frequently discovered refinements for this new "interest," further categories of "men, endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" whose right to movement was alienable, after all. Just as today's undesirables are "bad" for the country, they were then, too. Eugenics had begun poisoning America, and testimony from its enthusiasts helped persuade congresscriminals to pass the Immigration Acts of 1921 and 1924. These laws established the arbitrary and utterly cruel "quotas" that barred lesser peoples from polluting our sacred soil.

Indeed, no less a fan of racial purity than Adolph Hitler praised Americans' sagacity; after a century of open borders, we had finally come to our senses: "There is today one state in which at least weak beginnings toward a better conception are noticeable," the future Führer fulminated in Mein Kampf. "Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the American Union, in which an effort is made to consult reason at least partially. By refusing immigration on principle to elements in poor health, by simply excluding certain races from naturalization, it professes in slow beginnings a view which is peculiar to the [nationalistic] concept."

Such unutterable evil didn't deter Mr. Navarro. After taking that one small step for a man and giant leap for mankind, he continued spitting in Leviathan's eye: for the last 14 years, Mr. Navarro's lived in Oakland, CA, without the papers Our Rulers require. Bravo, Mr. Navarro!

Contrary to the stereotype of "illegals," our hero worked at Pacific Steel. (There is no pleasing some people: the very curmudgeons who decry "illegals'" alleged exploitation of welfare condemn Mr. Navarro for "stealing" a job.) So when his kidneys failed, the company's insurance paid for his dialysis. And now, when that no longer suffices, it will pay for a transplant. Otherwise, he'll die.

Mr. Navarro even boasts a donor: his wife. So we might expect a happy ending to this story as a dying husband and father receives the life-saving surgery he needs at no cost whatever to "real" Americans.

Count on the Feds to smash this fairy-tale. Their unconstitutional, unconscionable laws against freedom of movement have convinced the hospital not to treat Mr. Navarro. "Administrators at UC San Francisco Medical Center are refusing to transplant a kidney from Navarro’s wife, saying there is no guarantee he will receive adequate follow-up care, given his uncertain status." That's because Mr. Navarro "was caught up in an immigration audit and lost his foundry job this month." Leviathan could deport him at any moment; ergo, the Center hides behind the excuse of "[in]adequate follow-up care."

Right. And the Center just happens to be affiliated with a public university. So the State, not the Hippocratic Oath or humanity, calls the shots here. Imagine how much more merciless American medicine will grow when the government manages all of it under Obamacare. Disputing your taxes with the IRS? Fighting a traffic-ticket in court? Critical of the president, Congress, the TSA, the Post Office, the EPA, etc, ad nauseam, in online fora? No treatment for you, amigo, sorry.

Like many native-born Americans, Mr. Navarro has a family that deeply loves him. "'I started crying and crying and crying [when the hospital declined to operate],' said his wife, who asked that her name be withheld because she is also in the country illegally." Meanwhile, "her husband chase[d] their 3-year-old daughter" as "ethicists" lament the doctors' dilemma.

"'It puts the doctors in a very awkward and torn position,' [University of Pennsylvania bioethics professor Arthur Caplan] said. u2018You come into this trying to do good and find yourself stuck in the middle of a fight about immigration.'" Yep, this is what passes for critical and, worse, "moral" reasoning in the Amerikan Empire.

However pitiable, Mr. Navarro is merely one of the War on Movement's millions of victims. These men, women, and children suffer just as needlessly and grotesquely, even if the local newspaper doesn't report their heartrending cases. Perhaps that's why the Founders never empowered heartless bureaucrats and politicians to control anyone's travels into or out of the country. Yet most Americans cheer the State's tormenting of immigrants — even when one with his own donor and private insurance will die.

Their animus baffles. From what I can discern, most of those who hate Mexicans — and let's be honest: no one's upset about the Canadians sneaking across the northern border — do so because they assume these penniless migrants are sucking down welfare. Food stamps, residence in the slums the government runs, kids indoctrinated for "free" in "our" schools, are a few of the very questionable benefits "illegals" supposedly hog.

But this is an argument against socialism and Leviathan's welfare, not freedom of movement. I suspect it's also a red herring. And here's why: suppose we barred "illegals" from chaining themselves with Leviathan's golden manacles. Does that eliminate the objection, or should the Feds still police the borders?

Actually, Congress passed exactly that law in 1996, with its "Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act." This legislation tightened already existing restrictions on all immigrants, not just ones lacking a bureaucrat's permission, that inhibit their sponging off their neighbors. Currently, just about the only welfare still available to "illegals" is treatment in hospitals' emergency rooms (courtesy of federal law) and so-called public education for their kids (though states increasingly discourage that). Would that we could similarly wean natives from their dependence on government! Yet the hostility against people who come here to work — usually at jobs so difficult and poorly paid that natives won't take them — only seems to rise.

We could cite numerous statistics proving that "illegals" boost the economy and even Social Security, that they are a net benefit instead of a drain on the country, or, for those in Mr. Navarro's painful plight, that more of them donate organs than receive them.

But we who love liberty never echo the eugenicists and justify a man's exercise of his freedom based on how valuable he is to society; gracious, were that our criteria, we'd immediately deport all politicians and bureaucrats! Liberty is the highest end, in and of itself; we need not earn it, regardless of where we were born, what language we speak, or what culture we embrace: the simple fact of our humanity entitles every one of us to it.

Even Jesus Navarro.

February 10, 2012

[AuH20]

Well I for one am tired of trying to convince people. To the open borders people be careful what you wish for...because it's here. Keep slicing the pie.

Gentlemen far more erudite that you or I have already settled the matter. Specifically, Mr Madison:


It is no doubt very desirable that we should hold out as many inducements as possible for the worthy part of mankind to come and settle amongst us, and throw their fortunes into a common lot with ours. But why is this desirable? Not merely to swell the catalogue of people.

[P3ter_Griffin]

Yes plus paying to feed them, house them and help them find their relatives but most people here think that's just fine and if you disagree you are not for liberty.

lol... You know that aint true Carlybee. I sympathize with you on the effects that government policy is having on you, but treating them with more government policy isn't the right answer (I see the correlation, KC, bunkloco, and anti-fed :)). If we agree its effects of government policy causing the problems, then lets fight to restrict the government rather than fighting to restrict the people.

[Ender]

lol... You know that aint true Carlybee. I sympathize with you on the effects that government policy is having on you, but treating them with more government policy isn't the right answer (I see the correlation, KC, bunkloco, and anti-fed :)). If we agree its effects of government policy causing the problems, then lets fight to restrict the government rather than fighting to restrict the people.

Exactly my position- and +rep.

[donnay]

lol... You know that aint true Carlybee. I sympathize with you on the effects that government policy is having on you, but treating them with more government policy isn't the right answer (I see the correlation, KC, bunkloco, and anti-fed :)). If we agree its effects of government policy causing the problems, then lets fight to restrict the government rather than fighting to restrict the people.

Solution? (It's a serious question.)

[AuH20]

Facebook and JPM schmoozing with La Raza? And they give RP hell over Don Black? Really?

http://www.nclr.org/index.php/about_us/news/news_releases/nclr_announces_exciting_lineup_for_its_2014_annual _conference/


This year’s Conference features a list of impressive speakers, including Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti; Senator Elizabeth Warren (D–MA); Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer of JPMorgan Chase & Co. Jamie Dimon; Facebook Chief Operating Officer Sheryl Sandberg; California Attorney General Kamala Harris; actress and philanthropist Eva Longoria; and many more to come. Los Angeles Archbishop José H. Gomez is confirmed to give the invocation on Saturday, July 19 at the NCLR Conference luncheon.

[puppetmaster]

Of course that comes from an anti-immigration site.
One article criticizes border security while indicating that border apprehensions are down by 80% from their peak (a point they gloss over).



Reality:
http://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/09/PH-unauthorized-immigrants-1-02.png
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/23/chart-of-the-day-is-illegal-immigration-on-the-rise-again/



MMmm. Treats. Makes me hungry!

Keep in mind that about half of all illegal immigrants also entered the country legally. A completely sealed border (which is impossible) would at best keep half away.

Yours comes from pro immigration site. Common sense should prevail but utopian minded folks dream.

[Carlybee]

lol... You know that aint true Carlybee. I sympathize with you on the effects that government policy is having on you, but treating them with more government policy isn't the right answer (I see the correlation, KC, bunkloco, and anti-fed :)). If we agree its effects of government policy causing the problems, then lets fight to restrict the government rather than fighting to restrict the people.


I didn't ask for more government policy but to adhere to existing law. How's that restricting government working out for you anyway? I've been seeing the SOS on this site since 2007. Nobody has restricted anything and if anything we are worse off in terms of freedom. We as taxpaying LEGAL citizens are spied on, searched, expected to show "papers" for every daily transaction, yet we are not supposed to question letting anybody and everybody come here and then we are supposed to be happy to pay for them to do so. Well...nothing says liberty more than being forced to have uninvited guests over for dinner, foot the tab, have them spend the night and then pay for their children to boot. So when you get that whole restricting government thing sorted out...let me know. Preferably before another 70,000 come over this year and before another 12 billion is spent here and before another 100,000 gang members spring up just in my state alone and before no telling how many more cases of TB come over...mmmmkay? Just wait until West Africa's ebola epidemic goes on the move. You DO know it's not just latinos sneaking over the border right? Everybody in the world knows if you need to get into the US just come to the southern border. Some of you are a progressive's wet dream.

[Ender]

Solution? (It's a serious question.)

Change will only come from liberty-minded people getting involved in local government and starting the reintroduction of freedom there.

[AuH20]

I didn't ask for more government policy but to adhere to existing law. How's that restricting government working out for you anyway? I've been seeing the SOS on this site since 2007. Nobody has restricted anything and if anything we are worse off in terms of freedom. We as taxpaying LEGAL citizens are spied on, searched, expected to show "papers" for every daily transaction, yet we are not supposed to question letting anybody and everybody come here and then we are supposed to be happy to pay for them to do so. Well...nothing says liberty more than being forced to have uninvited guests over for dinner, foot the tab, have them spend the night and then pay for their children to boot. So when you get that whole restricting government thing sorted out...let me know. Preferably before another 70,000 come over this year and before another 12 billion is spent here and before another 100,000 gang members spring up just in my state alone and before no telling how many more cases of TB come over...mmmmkay? Just wait until West Africa's ebola epidemic goes on the move. You DO know it's not just latinos sneaking over the border right? Everybody in the world knows if you need to get into the US just come to the southern border. Some of you are a progressive's wet dream.

Open the borders yet we can't get one single solitary federal department closed?

http://www.justice.gov/crt/508/report2/agencies.php

We can't even get a small agency abolished.

[Carlybee]

Open the borders yet we can't get one single solitary federal department closed?

http://www.justice.gov/crt/508/report2/agencies.php

We can't even get a small agency abolished.


You cannot have an open border and provide entitlements. Forcing taxpayers to pay for the care and upkeep of immigrants violate personal property rights. People who think these immigrants do not apply for and get every single freebie they can the minute they get here is living in a land of unicorns and flying babies with gossamer wings. Not to mention the criminals who steal, assault, murder, rape...if that is not a violation of personal property I don't know what is.

[P3ter_Griffin]

Solution? (It's a serious question.)

The ultimate solution is for the government to get out of the way and leave risk and self responsibility as the source of natural selection as to whom immigrates. It was offered in a different thread, and I think it is a natural progression, that welfare to immigrants- legalized or not- be the first to go on our road to eliminating the welfare state. And this includes ending the war on drugs.

[P3ter_Griffin]

I didn't ask for more government policy but to adhere to existing law. How's that restricting government working out for you anyway? I've been seeing the SOS on this site since 2007. Nobody has restricted anything and if anything we are worse off in terms of freedom. We as taxpaying LEGAL citizens are spied on, searched, expected to show "papers" for every daily transaction, yet we are not supposed to question letting anybody and everybody come here and then we are supposed to be happy to pay for them to do so. Well...nothing says liberty more than being forced to have uninvited guests over for dinner, foot the tab, have them spend the night and then pay for their children to boot. So when you get that whole restricting government thing sorted out...let me know. Preferably before another 70,000 come over this year and before another 12 billion is spent here and before another 100,000 gang members spring up just in my state alone and before no telling how many more cases of TB come over...mmmmkay? Just wait until West Africa's ebola epidemic goes on the move. You DO know it's not just latinos sneaking over the border right? Everybody in the world knows if you need to get into the US just come to the southern border. Some of you are a progressive's wet dream.

Enforcing a law more stringently than it currently is is "more government policy" enough to me. We could also solve the problem of the drug cartels and gangster immigrants if we arrested all the drug using Americans. And if we followed drug policy more stringently that's what it'd be.

Restricting the government is going so bad that I'm hopeful. Unfortunately it seems like a person generally needs to be negatively effected themselves by the government to understand the need to restrict the government. So luckily the government is in high gear selling our message.

To be honest I'm much more worried about the poor souls who've lost their freedom for the possession of drugs, or of individuals who seek a better life but have government policy inhibiting it, than of 70,000 immigrants. I'm worried about fixing the problems not enforcing laws meant to mask it.

Please keep the ebola away from Wisconsin.

[Carlybee]

Enforcing a law more stringently than it currently is is "more government policy" enough to me. We could also solve the problem of the drug cartels and gangster immigrants if we arrested all the drug using Americans. And if we followed drug policy more stringently that's what it'd be.

Restricting the government is going so bad that I'm hopeful. Unfortunately it seems like a person generally needs to be negatively effected themselves by the government to understand the need to restrict the government. So luckily the government is in high gear selling our message.

To be honest I'm much more worried about the poor souls who've lost their freedom for the possession of drugs, or of individuals who seek a better life but have government policy inhibiting it, than of 70,000 immigrants. I'm worried about fixing the problems not enforcing laws meant to mask it.

Please keep the ebola away from Wisconsin.

And what do you call it when it is not only not being enforced but you have a president who uses executive privilege to orchestrate this exodus of children from their home countries over the border for political brownie points? So he can tick off his own brand of immigration reform outside of Congress in order to fulfill the legacy he wishes to leave? How is not enforcing the law restricting the government in any way? Of course it doesn't mean Jack squat to someone living 2000 miles away. If you aren't affected by it and your state is not paying for it and your only answer is an ideological solution that will never materialize then you are not engaged in the problem or an effective solution.

Not to mention that by allowing, encouraging and funding this, it is interventionism. You can't call for no foreign intervention out of one side of your mouth while ignoring that countries south of the border are indeed foreign, and while we may not be invading them, we allow them to invade us at the very least in an economic sense. By not securing the border, by expecting taxpayers to support them once they get here, we are compromising our own sovereignty and indeed engaging in foreign intervention. By taking the stance that these poor people need to be saved from their own harsh and impoverished conditions, it is no different than trying to spread democracy overseas.

[Madison320]

They don't...eVerify is voluntary. They do have to fill out an I9 form when someone is hired which requires certain forms of identification and that is a labor law so good luck getting rid of the Dept. Of Labor. All these things sound good in theory but would not work unless you get rid of the government in total. Oh and please tell me about this free country thing. My concern is with the outpouring of state funds to feed, cloth and house people who have no stake whatsoever in taking personal responsibility for themselves. It's bad enough legal citizens do it. Again why do we have to pay out 12 billion dollars a year in Texas and only recoup 1.7 billion for illegal aliens? That's a loss and cost to taxpayers of over 10 billion dollars A YEAR. Does your state pay out 10 billion dollars a year?

I agree with you. I don't think illegals should receive any form of welfare. My issue is with laws that harass employers.

[Carlybee]

I agree with you. I don't think illegals should receive any form of welfare. My issue is with laws that harass employers.


By the same token, is it fair that a carpenter loses his job to an illegal who will work for much less? They don't just come here and take the crappy jobs that nobody wants, they take skilled labor jobs too and I am not talking about overpaid union jobs. To look at the entitlement problem among our own citizens one has to look at unemployment. Are people too lazy to work or are they priced out of their own industry? It's a conundrum.

[kcchiefs6465]

By the same token, is it fair that a carpenter loses his job to an illegal who will work for much less? They don't just come here and take the crappy jobs that nobody wants, they take skilled labor jobs too and I am not talking about overpaid union jobs. To look at the entitlement problem among our own citizens one has to look at unemployment. Are people too lazy to work or are they priced out of their own industry? It's a conundrum.
You are ignoring the consumer.

It isn't fair that business is taxed and regulated to the point of becoming an endangered species. That people must compete for by and large worthless jobs, for depreciating dollars, and are prevented from bettering themselves in any meaningful way. Where free trade is stifled for all sorts of protectionist, foolish, shortsighted policies.

What of the people who could not afford the labor else wise? (and why is a majority coming together at some point in time sufficient to dictate who they can hire to do what) What about the money they've saved on a particular service being used elsewhere? What about producers and laborers finding creative ways to remain competitive? Why, nothing about them. The government will help fix a price and everyone will be visibly better off for it (after all, who cares to look at the larger picture). The same could be said of the reasoning behind the minimum wage, licensing schemes, and any other protectionist restrictions to the market.

[AuH20]

By the same token, is it fair that a carpenter loses his job to an illegal who will work for much less? They don't just come here and take the crappy jobs that nobody wants, they take skilled labor jobs too and I am not talking about overpaid union jobs. To look at the entitlement problem among our own citizens one has to look at unemployment. Are people too lazy to work or are they priced out of their own industry? It's a conundrum.

Illegal labor is not on par with the trade schools. You get what you pay for in some instances.

[mczerone]

You cannot have an open border and provide entitlements. Forcing taxpayers to pay for the care and upkeep of immigrants violate personal property rights. People who think these immigrants do not apply for and get every single freebie they can the minute they get here is living in a land of unicorns and flying babies with gossamer wings. Not to mention the criminals who steal, assault, murder, rape...if that is not a violation of personal property I don't know what is.

Where's your evidence?

What I've seen is that most immigrants, documented or otherwise, tend to shy away from involving themselves in govt programs: they see it not as a handout, but as another way to risk being investigated by ICE.

The only "handout" that I would see being used prolifically would be the public schools, where its easy to enroll and if you don't enroll your kids, you'll only be drawing more attention.

Also, the crime rate among undocumented immigrants is lower than any other demographic. Again - THEY DON'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT.

[Ender]

By the same token, is it fair that a carpenter loses his job to an illegal who will work for much less? They don't just come here and take the crappy jobs that nobody wants, they take skilled labor jobs too and I am not talking about overpaid union jobs. To look at the entitlement problem among our own citizens one has to look at unemployment. Are people too lazy to work or are they priced out of their own industry? It's a conundrum.

I said this on another thread-

I lived in a high-end ski town; the service jobs were all Latinos because NO ONE would take them. They paid well over min.wage and were good jobs, however, the community was much too good to take a job in house-keeping, maintenance or construction. One home-healthcare lady could not get anyone to fill good-paying jobs taking care of the elderly at home. After months, she did finally find a couple of Latino ladies who did the job and did it well.

So "fair"? I first want someone who will take the job- secondly, I want someone who can do the job. If a Latino immigrant is a better carpenter than the one I've got, who do you think I should hire? No one is going to hire someone just because they're cheap. They have to be able to do the job or the boss-man will lose his customers.

The very best workers in the service industry, that I have encountered, are Mexicans- no brag, just fact.

[Ender]

Where's your evidence?

What I've seen is that most immigrants, documented or otherwise, tend to shy away from involving themselves in govt programs: they see it not as a handout, but as another way to risk being investigated by ICE.

The only "handout" that I would see being used prolifically would be the public schools, where its easy to enroll and if you don't enroll your kids, you'll only be drawing more attention.

Also, the crime rate among undocumented immigrants is lower than any other demographic. Again - THEY DON'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT.

Yep.

[Carlybee]

Where's your evidence?

What I've seen is that most immigrants, documented or otherwise, tend to shy away from involving themselves in govt programs: they see it not as a handout, but as another way to risk being investigated by ICE.

The only "handout" that I would see being used prolifically would be the public schools, where its easy to enroll and if you don't enroll your kids, you'll only be drawing more attention.

Also, the crime rate among undocumented immigrants is lower than any other demographic. Again - THEY DON'T WANT TO GET CAUGHT.

Lmao...I know a bunch of them. And I suggest you go read the statistics on gang activity. We have 100,000 gang members in Houston, many of them culled from and recruited by cartels. You show some recent statistics that don't include non border states for Your claims.

[Carlybee]

Illegal labor is not on par with the trade schools. You get what you pay for in some instances.

Not true...there are many skilled illegals working in the construction industry from cabinetmakers to plumbers.

[AuH20]

Not true...there are many skilled illegals working in the construction industry from cabinetmakers to plumbers.

I work in the industry. Trade school labor is better on average, especially in the MEPS divisions.

[Carlybee]

I said this on another thread-

I lived in a high-end ski town; the service jobs were all Latinos because NO ONE would take them. They paid well over min.wage and were good jobs, however, the community was much too good to take a job in house-keeping, maintenance or construction. One home-healthcare lady could not get anyone to fill good-paying jobs taking care of the elderly at home. After months, she did finally find a couple of Latino ladies who did the job and did it well.

So "fair"? I first want someone who will take the job- secondly, I want someone who can do the job. If a Latino immigrant is a better carpenter than the one I've got, who do you think I should hire? No one is going to hire someone just because they're cheap. They have to be able to do the job or the boss-man will lose his customers.

The very best workers in the service industry, that I have encountered, are Mexicans- no brag, just fact.

Well I don't live in a ski town. I live in a city with oil industry and construction jobs. Granted very few want to be a roughneck on a drilling rig but they are high paying jobs and many of them require skilled labor.

[Carlybee]

I work in the industry. Trade school labor is better on average, especially in the MEPS divisions.

I don't know what that means. I am not talking about trade schools. I am talking about illegals making up many skilled crafts jobs. I know a cabinetmaker who lost his job and is now doing it on his own because he can't make the same money he once did due to the hiring of illegals who work cheaper than he is willing to.

[AuH20]

I don't know what that means. I am not talking about trade schools. I am talking about illegals making up many skilled crafts jobs. I know a cabinetmaker who lost his job and is now doing it on his own because he can't make the same money he once did due to the hiring of illegals who work cheaper than he is willing to.

I'm talking about union labor that is groomed though their own internal trade schools.

[Carlybee]

You are ignoring the consumer.

It isn't fair that business is taxed and regulated to the point of becoming an endangered species. That people must compete for by and large worthless jobs, for depreciating dollars, and are prevented from bettering themselves in any meaningful way. Where free trade is stifled for all sorts of protectionist, foolish, shortsighted policies.

What of the people who could not afford the labor else wise? (and why is a majority coming together at some point in time sufficient to dictate who they can hire to do what) What about the money they've saved on a particular service being used elsewhere? What about producers and laborers finding creative ways to remain competitive? Why, nothing about them. The government will help fix a price and everyone will be visibly better off for it (after all, who cares to look at the larger picture). The same could be said of the reasoning behind the minimum wage, licensing schemes, and any other protectionist restrictions to the market.


So screw American workers then? A carpenter should cut his asking rate considerably so companies can hire illegals cheaper? And on top of that pay taxes to support them coming over here?

[Carlybee]

I'm talking about union labor that is groomed though their own internal trade schools.


I specifically said I wasn't referring to union jobs. Most jobs here are non union.

[Carlybee]

You are entitled to your opinions. My stance is the same as Ron Paul's.



http://youtube.com/watch?v=8y3zEP75kFM

Can't get it to imbed

[Ender]

Lmao...I know a bunch of them. And I suggest you go read the statistics on gang activity. We have 100,000 gang members in Houston, many of them culled from and recruited by cartels. You show some recent statistics that don't include non border states for Your claims.

This is because of the WoD and the alphabets and NOT about illegals-

[kcchiefs6465]

So screw American workers then? A carpenter should cut his asking rate considerably so companies can hire illegals cheaper? And on top of that pay taxes to support them coming over here?
Well, that might be how the likes of Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, or other demagogues may word it however I wouldn't so much say, "Down with American labor," as I would say, "Up with competition." A carpenter should ask what they wish to ask (what one prices their labor at does not concern me, it is their business). If their work is exceptional they will be able to ask more for it. They could even cater specifically to those who do not like foreign labor if there was such a market for it. They can use slogans of 'Made in America' or what have you and people could consider their options accordingly. On principle, and in effect, what you propose is in line with the dozens of other things proposed. I do not particularly see how you make the distinction between which protectionist policies are of the good kind and which are of the bad. Certainly you wouldn't agree with the bulk of foolish progressive [protectionist] policies.

Preferably people would realize their foolish ways and not extort anyone to pay for anything they do not want. You are in Texas. How can it not be passed? Nullification of No Child Left Behind, a rejection of federal policy dictating the education system, a dissolution of Social Security. It would appear to me that your fellow countrymen have something to be gained in this as well. Quid pro quo voting. Their schemes and plunderous ways will bankrupt this country long before immigration policy. Yet most aren't so vehemently against them. In short, I have to go to work, I'll respond more later, but no, no one should be robbed to pay for anyone.

[HOLLYWOOD]

You cannot have an open border and provide entitlements. Forcing taxpayers to pay for the care and upkeep of immigrants violate personal property rights.

People who think these immigrants do not apply for and get every single freebie they can the minute they get here is living in a land of unicorns and flying babies with gossamer wings. Not to mention the criminals who steal, assault, murder, rape...if that is not a violation of personal property I don't know what is.
http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/sickle.gif

How "Marxist" Has
the United States
Become?
http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/tenplanks.html


You know these politicians always use symbols for political gain, like using the flag and children ...it's all going accordingly to plan:


The Ten Planks of the
Communist Manifesto

1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.
The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more "eminent domain" power than was originally intended, Under the rubric of "eminent domain" and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Management property taxes, and "environmental" excuses, private property rights have become very diluted and private property in landis, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the "forfeiture" provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs..

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), and various State income taxes, established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Another Marxian attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death. Instead, government bureaucrats get their greedy hands involved .

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
We call it government seizures, tax liens, "forfeiture" Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a "national bank" and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank, another major socialist objective. Yet, most Americans naively believe the U.S. of A. is far from a Marxist or socialist nation.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.
In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 -- not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL -- outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enteprrise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartelized through the government's regulatory-industrial complex.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
While the U.S. does not have vast "collective farms" (which failed so miserably in the Soviet Union), we nevertheless do have a significant degree of government involvement in agriculture in the form of price support subsidies and acreage alotments and land-use controls. The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.

10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.
People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" .

[Carlybee]

This is because of the WoD and the alphabets and NOT about illegals-

Regardless it's happening and it is a threat to life and property

[TruckinMike]

Illegals and war are the health of the state. ...why else would the state be encouraging it?;-)

/thread.

[AuH20]

Are you kidding me? Another POS mandarin in a black robe. What if the federal government is derelict in it's duty? Then what?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/23/court-strikes-montana-immigration-law/11276379/


HELENA, Mont. — A Montana judge has ruled that enactment of the state's 2012 voter-approved law banning undocumented immigrants from accessing state services is pre-empted by federal law and is unenforceable.

The law, which aims to deny government jobs and assistance to people in the U.S. illegally, required certain state agencies to certify through a federal database that those requesting services were United States citizens. If a person was not in the country legally, the Montana agency must turn over the name to federal immigration officials.

[Ender]

Regardless it's happening and it is a threat to life and property

So, let's all work together on the BIG PICTURE and not be pushing for more laws that will come back to bite the average American in the butt.

[Ender]

THIS is the real prob:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?454609-New-ACLU-report-takes-a-snapshot-of-police-militarization-in-the-United-States

[AuH20]

THIS is the real prob:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?454609-New-ACLU-report-takes-a-snapshot-of-police-militarization-in-the-United-States

And if illegals had it their way, there would be no 2nd amendment, among other things. No mounting of a resistance against the police state would be allowed.

[Carlybee]

So, let's all work together on the BIG PICTURE and not be pushing for more laws that will come back to bite the average American in the butt.

Ender...what new laws have I suggested or promoted?

[Brian4Liberty]

You cannot have an open border and provide entitlements.

Somehow, that long time, well respected opinion (in libertarian circles) has been thrown away. One factor is probably the success of Marxist-progressive conditioning. They have demonized all prerequisites, caveats, rules, conditions and laws related to immigration.

[Carlybee]

Somehow, that long time, well respected opinion (in libertarian circles) has been thrown away. One factor is probably the success of Marxist-progressive conditioning. They have demonized all prerequisites, caveats, rules, conditions and laws related to immigration.


It appears to have been thrown away among some of the libertarians on this forum.

[AuH20]

It just keeps getting better....

http://www.latinodecisions.com/blog/2013/03/12/latino-voters-favor-gun-restrictions/

http://www.latinodecisions.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/image_thumb12.png


Conditioned to be subservient?:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/04/latinos-less-likely-than-whites-blacks-own-guns-gallup_n_2618165.html


“Many of us come from countries where only the police, the military, and the criminal element have access to firearms,” Cuban-American commentator Raul Más Canosa writes in an op-ed published by Fox News Latino. “In most of Latin America it is difficult, if not impossible, for the average person to legally obtain a firearm for self-protection or sporting use.”

[cajuncocoa]

You cannot have an open border and provide entitlements.
Why is this so hard to understand? We can pretend we live in a perfect world, where we just expect these people to come here and work hard -- and poof! they will because we want them to. But the fact of the matter is, the majority are coming here because we're handing out freebies. Heck, people in our own country are standing in line every day for those same freebies....why would immigrants be any different?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of paying for entitlements for those who are legally here. Let's not add illegals to the tab.

[Carlybee]

Why is this so hard to understand? We can pretend we live in a perfect world, where we just expect these people to come here and work hard -- and poof! they will because we want them to. But the fact of the matter is, the majority are coming here because we're handing out freebies. Heck, people in our own country are standing in line every day for those same freebies....why would immigrants be any different?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of paying for entitlements for those who are legally here. Let's not add illegals to the tab.

The prevailing thought process seems to be...oh well, they don't eat much.

[Carlybee]

They do however need underwear

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/06/24/homeland-security-seeks-thousands-of-pairs-of-underwear-for-detained-immigrants/

[Carlybee]

Can we bill someone for this? Oh silly me...

http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/06/23/u-s-plans-child-migrant-processing-center-in-texas/

[AuH20]

Why is this so hard to understand? We can pretend we live in a perfect world, where we just expect these people to come here and work hard -- and poof! they will because we want them to. But the fact of the matter is, the majority are coming here because we're handing out freebies. Heck, people in our own country are standing in line every day for those same freebies....why would immigrants be any different?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of paying for entitlements for those who are legally here. Let's not add illegals to the tab.

If you took 4 million Americans and suddenly airdropped them into the heart of Brazil there would be problems. And I wouldn't fault the Brazilians from acting negatively towards their new guests. But apparently only Americans can be racist when entire blocs from Mexico and other Central American countries move into our country. There are profound cultural differences between us, along with the scarcity of resources which you pointed out.

[Christian Liberty]

It appears to have been thrown away among some of the libertarians on this forum.

Not me. But again, why can't we have our cake and eat it to? Make a law saying that people not born in the US cannot receive any money from the government.

It just keeps getting better....

http://www.latinodecisions.com/blog/2013/03/12/latino-voters-favor-gun-restrictions/

http://www.latinodecisions.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/image_thumb12.png


Conditioned to be subservient?:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/04/latinos-less-likely-than-whites-blacks-own-guns-gallup_n_2618165.html

How does that compare to the rest of the country?

[cajuncocoa]

Not me. But again, why can't we have our cake and eat it to? Make a law saying that people not born in the US cannot receive any money from the government.

Why not just enforce laws already on the books instead of creating a need for new ones? And why not scale back on some of these entitlements that are bleeding us dry even without an influx of illegals coming in through our porous borders?

[Carlybee]

Not me. But again, why can't we have our cake and eat it to? Make a law saying that people not born in the US cannot receive any money from the government.


?

Because you have to have an administration and congress that allows laws to be enforced.

[Christian Liberty]

Why not just enforce laws already on the books instead of creating a need for new ones?

The thing is, if someone wants to come here to work, or someone wants to hire them, I don't see why that should be in any way a crime. Its not an aggressive action.




And why not scale back on some of these entitlements that are bleeding us dry even without an influx of illegals coming in through our porous borders?

Well, yes, I would agree with destroying all of those regardless.

[AuH20]

Because you have to have an administration and congress that allows laws to be enforced.

And the court system intervenes if a state is finally fed up. See Montana.

[Christian Liberty]

Because you have to have an administration and congress that allows laws to be enforced.

I know what you're trying to say here, but in reality this is somewhat bizarre. Our administration and congress "allows" millions upon millions of laws to be enforced. Just not those few that might actually be useful. They want to make it so they can pass more laws.

I'm not generally a "law and order" type but I do agree with what you are saying here. It has nothing to do with desire for freedom on the Obama Admin's part. It has to do with wanting to bring more subservient, government-dependent people in. I can agree that that's a bad thing, even if I do object to regulating immigration (anywhere, and my issues relate to the NAP, not fake racism charges) on principle.

That's why I've never cared much about this one. Libertarians agree on the correct end-game result, I think. The only disagreements are over what the second-best option is, and I don't know the answer to that.

[Carlybee]

The thing is, if someone wants to come here to work, or someone wants to hire them, I don't see why that should be in any way a crime. Its not an aggressive action.



Well, yes, I would agree with destroying all of those regardless.

Any worker not coming through the southern border has to jump through hoops for a work visa, why should those coming from Mexico and Latin America get a free pass while others don't? Is there ever a limit? Should we wait until we are as overcrowded as China before we say enough? Are we now globalists?

[Madison320]

By the same token, is it fair that a carpenter loses his job to an illegal who will work for much less? They don't just come here and take the crappy jobs that nobody wants, they take skilled labor jobs too and I am not talking about overpaid union jobs. To look at the entitlement problem among our own citizens one has to look at unemployment. Are people too lazy to work or are they priced out of their own industry? It's a conundrum.

No one has a right to a job. It's wrong to protect the carpenter at the expense of everyone else who has to buy his overpriced services.

What you need to understand is that businesses don't have unlimited resources. If they are forced to pay more for a legal worker there's a good chance that they'll go out of business. It's just like raising the minimum wage. People think if you raise the minimum wage, businesses will just pay it out of their pool of unlimited resources. What happens in reality when you raise the minimum wage is that businesses have LIMITED resources and have to cut jobs or raise prices or go out of business.

[AuH20]

Any worker not coming through the southern border has to jump through hoops for a work visa, why should those coming from Mexico and Latin America get a free pass while others don't? Is there ever a limit? Should we wait until we are as overcrowded as China before we say enough? Are we now globalists?

Globalists want to intervene globally and we suffer domestically because of their pigheadness. It's all tied together. Commerce is one thing, but adopting a sizable percentage of another nation isn't our responsibility.

[Carlybee]

No one has a right to a job. It's wrong to protect the carpenter at the expense of everyone else who has to buy his overpriced services.

What you need to understand is that businesses don't have unlimited resources. If they are forced to pay more for a legal worker there's a good chance that they'll go out of business. It's just like raising the minimum wage. People think if you raise the minimum wage, businesses will just pay it out of their pool of unlimited resources. What happens in reality when you raise the minimum wage is that businesses have LIMITED resources and have to cut jobs or raise prices or go out of business.

For the record I am opposed to unions and to the raising of minimum wages. I just think a local carpenter shouldn't be forced out of his profession because cheap labor is encouraged to come here illegally. It's bad enough legal immigrants come here on work visas and work cheaper taking American jobs without encouraging illegals.

[Carlybee]

Globalists want to intervene globally and we suffer domestically because of their pigheadness. It's all tied together. Commerce is one thing, but adopting a sizable percentage of another nation isn't our responsibility.

And we are acquiring a sizeable percentage of several nations residents. And paying them for it by way of financial aid.

[AuH20]

And we are acquiring a sizeable percentage of several nations residents. And paying them for it by way of financial aid.

Case in point. CIA creates havoc in Syria and we pay for it TWICE!! The globalists need to be eradicated.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/05/us-syria-crisis-usa-refugees-idUSBREA141ZQ20140205

[Carlybee]

Case in point. CIA creates havoc in Syria and we pay for it TWICE!! The globalists need to be eradicated.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/05/us-syria-crisis-usa-refugees-idUSBREA141ZQ20140205


Agreed...same thing with paying to let illegals in and them again when they set up residence. No way do they ever bring in what it costs us. But...it's for the children!

[cajuncocoa]

Carlybee was having problems posting this from her phone...I told her I'd catch it since I'm on a laptop


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y3zEP75kFM

[Madison320]

For the record I am opposed to unions and to the raising of minimum wages. I just think a local carpenter shouldn't be forced out of his profession because cheap labor is encouraged to come here illegally. It's bad enough legal immigrants come here on work visas and work cheaper taking American jobs without encouraging illegals.

But it's the same principle.

Suppose business A has only 1 employee who makes $5 an hour. That's all business A can afford. Would you be in favor of closing that business because they are violating the minimum wage law?

Suppose business B has only 1 employee, an illegal carpenter, who makes $5 an hour. That's all business B can afford. Would you be in favor of closing that business because they are violating the illegal worker law?

[Christian Liberty]

I more or less agree with Ron, but I'm not exactly sympathetic to the police that are having a hard time identifying immigrants when there are as many laws as there are. Send anyone who commits a violent crime home? Absolutely. Should you have to have your immigration status checked if you are pulled over for a silly and absurd traffic infraction? No. Not so much for the benefit of the illegal as for the benefit of people who actually are legally here... there is no reason they should have to waste any more of their time being harassed by cops. I doubt Ron Paul actually disagrees with this, but I wish he would clarify.

[Carlybee]

But it's the same principle.

Suppose business A has only 1 employee who makes $5 an hour. That's all business A can afford. Would you be in favor of closing that business because they are violating the minimum wage law?

Suppose business B has only 1 employee, an illegal carpenter, who makes $5 an hour. That's all business B can afford. Would you be in favor of closing that business because they are violating the illegal worker law?

First of all I never said anything about closing businesses or forcing businesses to comply with anything. By the same token I don't think taxpayers should have to suffer paying for the cost of illegal immigration just so business B can get cheaper labor ergo enforce existing laws. You are not just taking on Jose the awesome yet cheap carpenter, you are taking on his wife and 5 kids in many cases. Even if they don't move with him, he is claiming them, paying zero withholding tax while using his fake social security documents while Joe Blow American carpenter is now on his 12th month of unemployment...which costs guess who? The employer and ultimately the taxpayer by the time we pay for all his assistance.

[Carlybee]

I more or less agree with Ron, but I'm not exactly sympathetic to the police that are having a hard time identifying immigrants when there are as many laws as there are. Send anyone who commits a violent crime home? Absolutely. Should you have to have your immigration status checked if you are pulled over for a silly and absurd traffic infraction? No. Not so much for the benefit of the illegal as for the benefit of people who actually are legally here... there is no reason they should have to waste any more of their time being harassed by cops. I doubt Ron Paul actually disagrees with this, but I wish he would clarify.


I live in a sanctuary city..the cops are not allowed to ask them their citizenship status. Plus once they are here there's not much you can do..I am talking about stemming the tide at the border and I don't believe on the further militarization of the police or using police at the border.

[Madison320]

First of all I never said anything about closing businesses or forcing businesses to comply with anything. By the same token I don't think taxpayers should have to suffer paying for the cost of illegal immigration just so business B can get cheaper labor ergo enforce existing laws. You are not just taking on Jose the awesome yet cheap carpenter, you are taking on his wife and 5 kids in many cases. Even if they don't move with him, he is claiming them, paying zero withholding tax while using his fake social security documents while Joe Blow American carpenter is now on his 12th month of unemployment...which costs guess who? The employer and ultimately the taxpayer by the time we pay for all his assistance.

27 wrongs don't make a right.

You lost me. Can you answer those 2 questions? Here they are again, I changed the wording although the logic is the same:

Suppose business A has only 1 employee who makes $5 an hour. That's all business A can afford. Would you be in favor of enforcing the the minimum wage law?

Suppose business B has only 1 employee, an illegal carpenter, who makes $5 an hour. That's all business B can afford. Would you be in favor of enforcing the illegal worker law?

I would take no action in either case because I think both laws are immoral. The only thing I'd be in favor of is deporting the illegal worker if the cops found him thru a traffic stop or something like that. But what I'm really opposed to is punishing the business owner. They shouldn't be punished for entering into a voluntary contract with an employee.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

You cannot have an open border and provide entitlements. Forcing taxpayers to pay for the care and upkeep of immigrants violate personal property rights. People who think these immigrants do not apply for and get every single freebie they can the minute they get here is living in a land of unicorns and flying babies with gossamer wings. Not to mention the criminals who steal, assault, murder, rape...if that is not a violation of personal property I don't know what is.

You keep complaining about entitlements and yet "illegals" are at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to welfare recipients. And for future, you cannot use property rights to defend immigration restriction when what you advocate for steals money from me and prevents businesses to choose who they want to hire.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

How is not enforcing the law restricting the government in any way?

Because not enforcing it means the government is not stealing from me? Just because it's already an existing law, does not mean it's justified. Hell, what you want the government to enforce isn't even constitutional.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Lmao...I know a bunch of them. And I suggest you go read the statistics on gang activity. We have 100,000 gang members in Houston, many of them culled from and recruited by cartels. You show some recent statistics that don't include non border states for Your claims.

And why do the gangs exist? Drugs.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

So screw American workers then? A carpenter should cut his asking rate considerably so companies can hire illegals cheaper? And on top of that pay taxes to support them coming over here?

Oh heavens no! Not free market competition!!!!

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Illegals and war are the health of the state. ...why else would the state be encouraging it?;-)

/thread.

Pretty sure the "illegals" are not in favor of war, or at least not as much as compared to white Republicans.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

And if illegals had it their way, there would be no 2nd amendment, among other things. No mounting of a resistance against the police state would be allowed.

Really, who gets fucked over more by the police state, whites or minorities?

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Somehow, that long time, well respected opinion (in libertarian circles) has been thrown away. One factor is probably the success of Marxist-progressive conditioning. They have demonized all prerequisites, caveats, rules, conditions and laws related to immigration.

Yeah, how Marxist of us libertarians to not want the government to tell us who we can and cannot interact with on our own property :rolleyes:

[Carlybee]

Oh heavens no! Not free market competition!!!!


There is nothing free market about supporting illegals, giving them entitlements, and taking up the slack for the taxes we have to pay and they don't. Nowhere else could someone who pays no withholding actually get a refund for something they never paid in by using fake documents to file returns claiming so many dependents they are exempt from paying, even if their dependents don't even live here..or even exist for that matter. If you or I did that we would be arrested for fraud.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

For the record I am opposed to unions and to the raising of minimum wages. I just think a local carpenter shouldn't be forced out of his profession because cheap labor is encouraged to come here illegally. It's bad enough legal immigrants come here on work visas and work cheaper taking American jobs without encouraging illegals.

So if an unemployed American citizen who desperately wanted a job was willing to work for significantly lower pay, that would be acceptable, but when someone who was born on the other side of a line does the same thing, it's not okay?

[Carlybee]

Yeah, how Marxist of us libertarians to not want the government to tell us who we can and cannot interact with on our own property :rolleyes:

My property is not your property. If they have to go through my property to get to your property and I don't want them on my property they are violating my rights.

[Carlybee]

So if an unemployed American citizen who desperately wanted a job was willing to work for significantly lower pay, that would be acceptable, but when someone who was born on the other side of a line does the same thing, it's not okay?

Sure it's okay if they get to the back of the immigration line. They have no stake in the well being of this country. They haven't spent a lifetime paying taxes to support this country nor have they contributed in any way.

[Carlybee]

And why do the gangs exist? Drugs.

And? You keep thinking the drug war is going to end tomorrow. Not even close.

[Carlybee]

27 wrongs don't make a right.

You lost me. Can you answer those 2 questions? Here they are again, I changed the wording although the logic is the same:

Suppose business A has only 1 employee who makes $5 an hour. That's all business A can afford. Would you be in favor of enforcing the the minimum wage law?

Suppose business B has only 1 employee, an illegal carpenter, who makes $5 an hour. That's all business B can afford. Would you be in favor of enforcing the illegal worker law?

I would take no action in either case because I think both laws are immoral. The only thing I'd be in favor of is deporting the illegal worker if the cops found him thru a traffic stop or something like that. But what I'm really opposed to is punishing the business owner. They shouldn't be punished for entering into a voluntary contract with an employee.

I disagree and I never said anything about punishing business owners. Not my problem if they can't afford to pay anyone but an illegal. Which is Bullcrap. Straw man argument.

[Carlybee]

You keep complaining about entitlements and yet "illegals" are at the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to welfare recipients. And for future, you cannot use property rights to defend immigration restriction when what you advocate for steals money from me and prevents businesses to choose who they want to hire.


Really? Prove they are at the bottom of the totem pole. And preferably from some state that actually had a large influx of illegals. Not Bumfuck, Iowa or someplace like that. Did you even watch the Ron Paul video




The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers (2010)
The full report is available in pdf format.

Executive Summary

This report estimates the annual costs of illegal immigration at the federal, state and local level to be about $113 billion; nearly $29 billion at the federal level and $84 billion at the state and local level. The study also estimates tax collections from illegal alien workers, both those in the above-ground economy and those in the underground economy. Those receipts do not come close to the level of expenditures and, in any case, are misleading as an offset because over time unemployed and underemployed U.S. workers would replace illegal alien workers.

Key Findings
Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level. The bulk of the costs — some $84 billion — are absorbed by state and local governments.
The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per native-headed household of $1,117. The fiscal impact per household varies considerably because the greatest share of the burden falls on state and local taxpayers whose burden depends on the size of the illegal alien population in that locality
Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion. Nearly all of those costs are absorbed by state and local governments.
At the federal level, about one-third of outlays are matched by tax collections from illegal aliens. At the state and local level, an average of less than 5 percent of the public costs associated with illegal immigration is recouped through taxes collected from illegal aliens.
Most illegal aliens do not pay income taxes. Among those who do, much of the revenues collected are refunded to the illegal aliens when they file tax returns. Many are also claiming tax credits resulting in payments from the U.S. Treasury.


http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-u-s-taxpayers

[Madison320]

I disagree and I never said anything about punishing business owners. Not my problem if they can't afford to pay anyone but an illegal. Which is Bullcrap. Straw man argument.

OK, I asked twice and no response. I give up. I thought we might actually agree ...

[kcchiefs6465]

The prevailing thought process seems to be...oh well, they don't eat much.
The prevailing thought seems to be, "I can't compete with a half-illiterate, non-English speaking, just crossed the river migrant, please, government, there ought to be a law!"

Much as the progressives whine about minimum wages, and dream up union schemes.

Or it is, "Ermahgod, who will protect me from the criminals!? I'm not willing to provide my own defense and neither are my neighbors so please, government, save me!"

Much as the progressives whine for a police presence.

Or even more common it's, "You ought pay for my kid's education, the military is needed to protect the homeland, and by God, we need agents guarding the border 24/7/365. So we'll just vote to take your money for our projects. But goddamn those dirty foreigners taking money for theirs."

Much as the progressives whine and organize for subsidies.

Shall I continue to insultingly assume your prevailing thought process?

I have explained my thought process. It is because I am anti-collectivist. It is because there is such a thing called freedom. And it's because I despise fascists.

[Carlybee]

The prevailing thought seems to be, "I can't compete with a half-illiterate, non-English speaking, just crossed the river migrant, please, government, there ought to be a law!"

Much as the progressives whine about minimum wages, and dream up union schemes.

Or it is, "Ermahgod, who will protect me from the criminals!? I'm not willing to provide my own defense and neither are my neighbors so please, government, save me!"

Much as the progressives whine for a police presence.

Or even more common it's, "You ought pay for my kid's education, the military is needed to protect the homeland, and by God, we need agents guarding the border 24/7/365. So we'll just vote to take your money for our projects. But goddamn those dirty foreigners taking money for theirs."

Much as the progressives whine and organize for subsidies.

Shall I continue to insultingly assume your prevailing thought process?

I have explained my thought process. It is because I am anti-collectivist. It is because there is such a thing called freedom. And it's because I despise fascists.

There is no free market and as long as entitlements are given to illegals at the expense of taxpayers there will never be a true case for open borders. I find being forced to fund them to be fascist. I find being told to be all inclusive to be socialist. I find being told that it doesn't matter if my earned income can go to house and feed masses of people coming over the border as long as employers get to have cheap labor to be totally screwed up. It's not my responsibility to pay for illegals so employers can hire them and to tell me I must do so or I am not for liberty is screwed up. I guess Ron Paul must not be for liberty either. Actually your insistence that they must be allowed regardless is exactly what progressives want so that is indeed collectivist and utopian. And for the record I asked for no new laws so that comment was disingenuous.

[Carlybee]

OK, I asked twice and no response. I give up. I thought we might actually agree ...

And I answered.

[LibForestPaul]

This report estimates the annual costs of illegal immigration at the federal, state and local level to be about $113 billion
Also known as private reward, public risk.
I prefer fraudulent immigration term over illegal immigration.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

My property is not your property. If they have to go through my property to get to your property and I don't want them on my property they are violating my rights.

How are they going through your property?

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Sure it's okay if they get to the back of the immigration line. They have no stake in the well being of this country. They haven't spent a lifetime paying taxes to support this country nor have they contributed in any way.

Why does there have to be this line? What purpose does it serve? If the person is qualified enough and the employer sees what he/she likes, that should be enough.

And how would you define the well being of a nation as diverse as the U.S.? These immigrants are coming over, putting their heads down, and working. What else do you want from them? To pay federal taxes that only contribute to the police state, military industrial complex, and corporatism? If anything, these people are starving the beast so they should be applauded.

[Carlybee]

How are they going through your property?


Same way they are on "our" property. It was an analogy to the fact that they are coming through my state. In this case the taxpayers and property owners are the owners of the state as a sovereign entity.

[Carlybee]

Why does there have to be this line? What purpose does it serve? If the person is qualified enough and the employer sees what he/she likes, that should be enough.

And how would you define the well being of a nation as diverse as the U.S.? These immigrants are coming over, putting their heads down, and working. What else do you want from them? To pay federal taxes that only contribute to the police state, military industrial complex, and corporatism? If anything, these people are starving the beast so they should be applauded.


They are not all working...some of them are criminals. Unless you count robbing the corner store as "working". The little punk gang members aren't working. We have a bunch of sex offenders coming in over the border...but hey..as long as they are hard workers..the rest of your comments are retarded. Unless I can adopt one and write him off as a dependent, they aren't doing me any favors. Do you not get that when they don't pay, we have to pay their share? I'm beginning to suspect you are someone's sock puppet.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Same way they are on "our" property. It was an analogy to the fact that they are coming through my state. In this case the taxpayers and property owners are the owners of the state as a sovereign entity.

I have the right to choose who to interact with, both on a business and personal level. You do not have the right to restrict that liberty.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

They are not all working...some of them are criminals. Unless you count robbing the corner store as "working". The little punk gang members aren't working. We have a bunch of sex offenders coming in over the border...but hey..as long as they are hard workers..the rest of your comments are retarded. Unless I can adopt one and write him off as a dependent, they aren't doing me any favors. Do you not get that when they don't pay, we have to pay their share? I'm beginning to suspect you are someone's sock puppet.

Yes, some are criminals, just like there are American citizens who are criminals. I guess we'd better set up borders around Chicago and Detroit so the criminal element from those cities doesn't cross into the surrounding Midwestern states.

But since I'm a libertarian and not a Marxist, I don't treat people collectively like you do.

[Carlybee]

I have the right to choose who to interact with, both on a business and personal level. You do not have the right to restrict that liberty.

Actually no you don't. I you hire an illegal...whether you are for or against it, you are breaking the law. Like it or not and for better of worse, we are still a country of laws. The fact that our government sees fit to enforce them selectively is beside the point. You seem to think that we live in a free market society. We do not. You seem to think that it's okay for me to pay higher taxes to support people who break the law to come here for work. You want to change the law? You want amnesty? Then you and La Raza would get along well because you have the same agenda. You want to stop entitlements to illegals? Then we can talk about open borders because until that happens al it does is incentivize them to come here and play the system.

[Carlybee]

Yes, some are criminals, just like there are American citizens who are criminals. I guess we'd better set up borders around Chicago and Detroit so the criminal element from those cities doesn't cross into the surrounding Midwestern states.

But since I'm a libertarian and not a Marxist, I don't treat people collectively like you do.


The difference is that those criminals are under our jurisdiction. Illegal alien criminals if caught get deported and come right back over the border. If you are a libertarian then you would have gotten something from the Ron Paul interview that was posted. Are you calling him a Marxist? Because I have sad on more than one occasion I share his stance on this issue and he is right. Until entitlements to illegals are stopped there should be no open borders. Now you are either very young, or very naive if you think this country is anywhere close to being able to operate under a free market system. Yes we must work toward that but meanwhile there are circumstances that must be addressed with the resources we have and while far from ideal, it is what it is for now.

[kcchiefs6465]

Actually no you don't. I you hire an illegal...whether you are for or against it, you are breaking the law. Like it or not and for better of worse, we are still a country of laws. The fact that our government sees fit to enforce them selectively is beside the point. You seem to think that we live in a free market society. We do not. You seem to think that it's okay for me to pay higher taxes to support people who break the law to come here for work. You want to change the law? You want amnesty? Then you and La Raza would get along well because you have the same agenda. You want to stop entitlements to illegals? Then we can talk about open borders because until that happens al it does is incentivize them to come here and play the system.
http://i.imgur.com/SUKnwQT.gif?1

[Carlybee]

http://i.imgur.com/SUKnwQT.gif?1


Okay I'm done trying to discuss this with you. I'll defer to Ron Paul and Thomas Woods on this topic, you can defer to the Democrats, La Raza and the pro-amnesty Repukelicans. After all it is such a free country and all.

[Carlybee]

//

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Actually no you don't. If you hire an illegal...whether you are for or against it, you are breaking the law. Like it or not and for better of worse, we are still a country of laws. The fact that our government sees fit to enforce them selectively is beside the point. You seem to think that we live in a free market society. We do not. You seem to think that it's okay for me to pay higher taxes to support people who break the law to come here for work. You want to change the law? You want amnesty? Then you and La Raza would get along well because you have the same agenda. You want to stop entitlements to illegals? Then we can talk about open borders because until that happens al it does is incentivize them to come here and play the system.

I don't give a shit what the law says, natural rights >>>>>> social contract theory.

And when did I say we live in a free market? We obviously don't with the current levels of government intervention, so I'm arguing for a move in that direction. Giving the government power over immigration does not accomplish that and only sets us back further. As has been pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. You cannot expand freedom by taking it away at the same time.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Why are we helping illegal immigrants when 22 veteran commit suicide everyday, Veterans dying wait-listed(intentionally), more people in poverty than ever before, more working age Americans out of work than ever before(92 Million)... by god, we don't even help our own homeless which are now coming from all walks of life/economic levels?

Yet those that break the laws, are assisted and cared for as priority one and American taxpayers have to pickup the bills?

[Carlybee]

I don't give a shit what the law says, natural rights >>>>>> social contract theory.

And when did I say we live in a free market? We obviously don't with the current levels of government intervention, so I'm arguing for a move in that direction. Giving the government power over immigration does not accomplish that and only sets us back further. As has been pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. You cannot expand freedom by taking it away at the same time.


We have been moving in that direction at least on this board since 2007. Unfortunately the inroads made politically have been basically zilch. And you seem to think it's okay to encroach upon my freedom with forced integration. Not only that but forced integration that ultimately I have to pay for.


It is puzzling why so many libertarians have so enthusiastically and uncritically accepted the “open borders” position. It leads, in fact, to an infringement on the property rights of millions of homeowners, and a tremendous increase in state power.
Thomas E. Woods



There is a more subtle reason to be wary of the kind of radical heterogeneity that a continuation of current policy promises. In order to destroy the cultural and ethnic cohesion that acts as a bulwark against its expansion, the state has a history of engaging in deliberate demographic scrambling. When this forced integration inevitably produces animosity, the state is all too eager to impose order on a chaos of its own creation.
Thomas E. Woods

[Carlybee]

Why are we helping illegal immigrants when 22 veteran commit suicide everyday, Veterans dying wait-listed(intentionally), more people in poverty than ever before, more working age Americans out of work than ever before(92 Million)... by god, we don't even help our own homeless which are now coming from all walks of life/economic levels?

Yet those that break the laws, are assisted and cared for as priority one and American taxpayers have to pickup the bills?


Because we have allowed the federal government to decide that we are to be subjected to forced integration in pursuit of the one world order agenda.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

The difference is that those criminals are under our jurisdiction. Illegal alien criminals if caught get deported and come right back over the border. If you are a libertarian then you would have gotten something from the Ron Paul interview that was posted. Are you calling him a Marxist? Because I have sad on more than one occasion I share his stance on this issue and he is right. Until entitlements to illegals are stopped there should be no open borders. Now you are either very young, or very naive if you think this country is anywhere close to being able to operate under a free market system. Yes we must work toward that but meanwhile there are circumstances that must be addressed with the resources we have and while far from ideal, it is what it is for now.

If they're under our jurisdiction, why are you okay with them having the freedom to move wherever they choose? A majority of violent crimes in the ghettos either go unsolved, police force an illegitimate confession out of someone, or an innocent person is wrongfully identified. I would hardly call it a contained situation.

[kcchiefs6465]

Okay I'm done trying to discuss this with you. I'll defer to Ron Paul and Thomas Woods on this topic, you can defer to the Democrats, La Raza and the pro-amnesty Repukelicans. After all it is such a free country and all.
I have a few of their books, if you'd like more insight on the matter.

What I'd particularly encourage you to read into would be the subject of legal positivism, its relation to collectivist thought and propaganda and why your previous post might be funny on its face, if it weren't so unfunny (after all, they assassinate American citizens, destroy evidence of their wrongdoing and encourage their agents to lie to the courts). In fact, they laugh at Congress openly in between five minute redirects, rehearsed propaganda, and outright lies. We are a nation of laws.

We are a nation of laws when it is your pet issues being funded (to hell with my property). I will try to limit the amount of times I mock you with that nonsense as you complain about this or that. Simply a nation of laws. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Carlybee]

I have a few of their books, if you'd like more insight on the matter.

What I'd particularly encourage you to read into would be the subject of legal positivism, its relation to collectivist thought and propaganda and why your previous post might be funny on its face, if it weren't so unfunny (after all, they assassinate American citizens, destroy evidence of their wrongdoing and encourage their agents to lie to the courts). In fact, they laugh at Congress openly in between five minute redirects, rehearsed propaganda, and outright lies. We are a nation of laws.

We are a nation of laws when it is your pet issues being funded (to hell with my property). I will try to limit the amount of times I mock you with that nonsense as you complain about this or that. Simply a nation of laws. Nothing more, nothing less.


The Constitution is a set of laws, no?

[Carlybee]

With regard to the OT



Immigration End Game Revealed: New Law Would Give Illegal Immigrants The Right To Vote, Collect Government Benefits
Mac Slavo
June 17th, 2014


In recent weeks tens of thousands of illegal immigrants have flooded the southern border of the United States. So much so that border patrol agents are overwhelmed to the point where security along the Rio Grande river has become virtually non-existent. Instead of making arrests, detaining and deporting those who cross into America illegally, many immigration agents are reportedly mixing baby food and changing diapers for children left displaced by parents who’ve abandoned them in the hopes their kids would find greener pastures in the U.S.

The inaction on the part of the Federal government has left many bewildered. Some insiders at Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) have even gone so far as to suggest that the entire situation has been orchestrated by the Obama administration in an effort to increase their voter base ahead of the upcoming national elections this year and in 2016. That allegation may have seemed ridiculous to supporters of amnesty legislation and immigration reform, who argue that allowing immigrants into America is a humanitarian issue.

But a new legislative proposal from Democratic Senator Guestavo Rivera of New York may have just proven that opponents of lax border policies have a legitimate concern as it relates to diluting the Conservative and Libertarian voter block, as well as the burden of more government spending to accommodate the influx of people requiring assistance.

If passed, the new law would give illegal immigrants the right to not only vote in local and state elections, but they’d also enjoy many of the taxpayer funded benefits available to American citizens.

In terms of the broad benefits available to non-citizens, this bill is the first of its kind in America.

The main objective of the New York Is Home Act, according to Rivera, is to integrate illegal immigrants, who are estranged from participation in civic, economic and political life.

The legislation not only gives illegal immigrants the right to vote, but establishes a kind of second-tiered citizenship on a state level, in which illegal immigrants can apply for tuition assistance, health insurance and driver’s and professional licenses, among other benefits.

“It’s mind-boggling,” says Michael Olivas, a professor at the University of Houston Law Center who specializes in immigration law, according to Businessweek. “I don’t believe there’s ever been a serious attempt to codify so many benefits and opportunities.



While Homeland Security and domestic intelligence agencies monitor the activities of American citizens and militarize local police forces under the pretext of safety, we now have a pretty good idea as to why our southern border has been left completely unprotected.



http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/immigration-end-game-revealed-democrat-senator-proposes-new-law-to-allow-illegal-immigrants-to-vote-collect-government-benefits_06172014

[kcchiefs6465]

Why are we helping illegal immigrants when 22 veteran commit suicide everyday, Veterans dying wait-listed(intentionally), more people in poverty than ever before, more working age Americans out of work than ever before(92 Million)... by god, we don't even help our own homeless which are now coming from all walks of life/economic levels?

Yet those that break the laws, are assisted and cared for as priority one and American taxpayers have to pickup the bills?

Why are 22 veterans committing suicide daily?

I feel bad for the homeless. I give what I can.

If they really wanted to help the homeless, which they don't, (nor do they want to help the peasants of South America), they'd start eliminating any number of the ~100,000 regulations. But they won't. So we must argue for more.

[kcchiefs6465]

The Constitution is a set of laws, no?

No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labour, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due.
That is was. Some laws being less lawful than others, of course.

[Carlybee]

That is was. Some laws being less lawful than others, of course.


So do you think we should toss the Constitution? Have absolutely no laws and total chaos? That would actually be fine by me because I have always said, we either enforce the laws we have or we go all out anarchy. Kind of tosses the NAP in the garbage though. I would like to wait until I can get some weaponry and ammunition however because I won't go gentle into that good night.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

David Friedman:

Living on welfare might look like a good deal for someone whose only experience is trying to survive in an impoverished third world country, but less so after a decade or so living and working in a first world country at first world wages.

Jeffrey Tucker:

Immigration has brought not only economic growth but a much-needed cultural shift to [Alabama]. We now have ever more museums, schools, houses of worship of many varieties, and our theaters, movie houses, and orchestras are actually enjoying support. Alabama now has highly skilled hands that can do a variety of tasks that were impossible to get done before, from complex engineering to intricate tile work in public spaces.

Of course the agriculture issue is gigantic: nearly all the workers were undocumented and now they are gone. Then there’s the food issue: without immigration, Alabama would be mostly burgers and chicken fingers. All of these industries, to one extent or another, rely on workers with sketchy documentation.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather craft my own argument rather than name drop prominent libertarians and quote their positions.

[Carlybee]

David Friedman:

Living on welfare might look like a good deal for someone whose only experience is trying to survive in an impoverished third world country, but less so after a decade or so living and working in a first world country at first world wages.

Jeffrey Tucker:

Immigration has brought not only economic growth but a much-needed cultural shift to [Alabama]. We now have ever more museums, schools, houses of worship of many varieties, and our theaters, movie houses, and orchestras are actually enjoying support. Alabama now has highly skilled hands that can do a variety of tasks that were impossible to get done before, from complex engineering to intricate tile work in public spaces.

Of course the agriculture issue is gigantic: nearly all the workers were undocumented and now they are gone. Then there’s the food issue: without immigration, Alabama would be mostly burgers and chicken fingers. All of these industries, to one extent or another, rely on workers with sketchy documentation.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather craft my own argument rather than name drop prominent libertarians and quote their positions.


Oh you mean like you just did? I don't have a problem at all name dropping Ron Paul on the Ron Paul Forum. For the record I disagree with Tucker. A lot of big ag uses machinery now. I dont buy big ag food anyway, I buy from local organic growers who don't employ illegals but local high school kids. Of course the whole of the nation unfortunately depends on Walmart for most of their food supplies. Wonder what America did before they had big ag? Hmmm.

Take away the welfare state. Citizens would learn to work at whatever job they could and illegals would have no incentive to come here.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

So do you think we should toss the Constitution? Have absolutely no laws and total chaos?

Anarchy does not equal chaos but rather:

http://freetheanimal.com/images/2014/05/tumblr-m8qcxifilU1rrtk1bo1-500-1.jpg

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Oh you mean like you just did? I don't have a problem at all name dropping Ron Paul on the Ron Paul Forum.

I did it to show that I can play that game too.

[Carlybee]

I did it to show that I can play that game too.


So would you like a gold star to stick on your binder? I am not playing a game, I am trying to quote some people whom I would think would be well regarded around here in order to support my viewpoint.

[kcchiefs6465]

So do you think we should toss the Constitution? Have absolutely no laws and total chaos? That would actually be fine by me because I have always said, we either enforce the laws we have or we go all out anarchy. Kind of tosses the NAP in the garbage though. I would like to wait until I can get some weaponry and ammunition however because I won't go gentle into that good night.
They've already tossed the Constitution. Today it is only given the barest of lip service while simultaneously behind the scenes they are acting as only sanctioned thugs could. I could offer example after example. I have written countless pages on the matter. I have wasted hours watching their hearings, documenting their crimes.

Now I have no doubts your motivations are in the right place and I also have no doubt that them following the Constitution would be leaps and bounds better than most all of recorded history but quite quickly the Constitution took the back burner to Man's corruption and ambitions for power. It was predictable. To add onto the trouble naturally arising from Man's inherent flaws, there are inherent flaws of a given collective. People feed off of each other's emotions, a policy of group think is realized, and people's natural fears of what others think of them if being anything less than what they themselves perceive normalcy to be, encourages a society to become complacent. Techniques of propaganda were studied and mastered. Socialist ideals were fast becoming the trend. In short, the people themselves were not diligent in their efforts to retain a system which promised them freedom. Bastiat predicted as much in what, 1848? A system of plunder promoted the negligence of all's diligence for freedom.

The issue ought not be that well people rob, so we must install the worst group of robbers into a position of prominence. It isn't that well people kill, so murderers must protect us. The numbers that do so are always the minority. That they exist is unfortunate but to think that because they exist, a class of related crooks must be installed to rule over us is necessary is misguided.

In any case, it is what it is. Whether it's the IRS ("whoops, where'd the emails go"), the US Marshals (encouraging police departments to lie about their warrantless acquisition of evidence), the NSA (James Clapper lying under oath), the CIA (Benghazi, Stinger missile systems laundered to insurgents in the Middle East [not to mention their ties to drug kingpins), the DEA (their protection of class one traffickers), the FBI (their murdering of witnesses, protection of the mob), the ATF (and their gun walking operation)... I mean, this is just absurd.

Presidents from over a hundred years ago were speaking of being able to act without Congressional consent.

[Carlybee]

They've already tossed the Constitution. Today it is only given the barest of lip service while simultaneously behind the scenes they are acting as only sanctioned thugs could. I could offer example after example. I have written countless pages on the matter. I have wasted hours watching their hearings, documenting their crimes.

Now I have no doubts your motivations are in the right place and I also have no doubt that them following the Constitution would be leaps and bounds better than most all of recorded history but quite quickly the Constitution took the back burner to Man's corruption and ambitions for power. It was predictable. To add onto the trouble naturally arising from Man's inherent flaws, there are inherent flaws of a given collective. People feed off of each other's emotions, a policy of group think is realized, and people's natural fears of what others think of them if being anything less than what they themselves perceive normalcy to be, encourages a society to become complacent. Techniques of propaganda were studied and mastered. Socialist ideals were fast becoming the trend. In short, the people themselves were not diligent in their efforts to retain a system which promised them freedom. Bastiat predicted as much in what, 1848? A system of plunder promoted the negligence of all's diligence for freedom.

The issue ought not be that well people rob, so we must install the worst group of robbers into a position of prominence. It isn't that well people kill, so murderers must protect us. The numbers that do so are always the minority. That they exist is unfortunate but to think that because they exist, a class of related crooks must be installed to rule over us is necessary is misguided.

In any case, it is what it is. Whether it's the IRS ("whoops, where'd the emails go"), the US Marshals (encouraging police departments to lie about their warrantless acquisition of evidence), the NSA (James Clapper lying under oath), the CIA (Benghazi, Stinger missile systems laundered to insurgents in the Middle East [not to mention their ties to drug kingpins), the DEA (their protection of class one traffickers), the FBI (their murdering of witnesses, protection of the mob), the ATF (and their gun walking operation)... I mean, this is just absurd.

Presidents from over a hundred years ago were speaking of being able to act without Congressional consent.

I don't disagree with that but we do still have at least some legal precedent afforded us by the Constitution. Not much, but right now it's all we have.

[Carlybee]

//

[kcchiefs6465]

[...] I am trying to quote some people whom I would think would be well regarded around here in order to support my viewpoint.


Immigration

There seem to be two extreme positions on immigration: completely closed borders and totally open borders. The Constitution, common sense, and the philosophy of freedom offer a principled alternative to these two rash options.

It’s best to try to understand why immigration is such a hot-button issue for most Americans. There are many reasons why the politics of immigration are so emotionally charged. The most telling reason is related to economic concerns and violence; immigrants, it is said, take jobs from American working people; federal mandates require states to provide free medical and educational benefits to illegals; a weak economy exaggerates the economic consequences of legal and illegal immigration.

The political motivations are important contributing factors as well and are the concerns of many Americans. It is assumed that all immigrants, including illegals, will benefit liberals and Democrats at the voting booth. Evidence exists that some illegals do vote and they don’t vote for Republicans. Illegals are counted in the census, creating a situation where they can statistically add up to several congressional districts. Texas, for instance, gained four new seats after the 2010 census was completed and this was, to a large degree, a reflection of our immigration policies.

Due to the immensity of this emotionally charged problem, a simple answer under current conditions will not be easily found. In the ideal libertarian world, borders would be blurred and open. It would be something similar to what the Constitution did with the borders between the various states. Civilization has not yet come even close to being capable of such a policy, though it engages some in a theoretical discussion. The libertarians who argue for completely open borders for the free flow of goods and people fail to realize that a truly libertarian society would not necessarily be that open. The land and property would be privately owned and controlled by the owners, who would have the right to prevent newcomers from entering without their permission. There would be no government havens or welfare benefits and new immigrants would come only after a sponsor’s permission.

Under today’s circumstances, with a government-precipitated recession (a depression for those who earn under $30,000 a year) and promises of welfare, obviously some rules are required.

It’s important to note that the greatest resentment comes from government-mandated free services and a government-created unemployment crisis. Fix these two problems and finding a scapegoat for our economic crisis wouldn't be necessary.

A free and prosperous economy always looks for labor; immigrant workers would be needed and welcomed. This need could be managed by a generous guest worker program, not by illegal immigrants receiving benefits for the family and securing an easy route to permanent citizenship and thus becoming pawns of partisan political
interests.

Since Washington will not soon come to its senses and allow for the needed economic corrections to restore a healthy free market economy, we are forced to deal with current conditions, which are rapidly deteriorating.

Even today with all our government excesses we have millions of people and businesses protected by private security. Dow Chemical has fences and private security guards, as do most of the chemical plants located a few miles from where I live. There are no trespassers and if a problem occurs, the police or sheriff is called.

But if a rancher on our border wants to stop trespassers on his land, he is forbidden to do so. The Feds don’t even allow the state law enforcement officers to interfere! This, they argue, could lead to violence if an appropriate use of force is not used. Shooting suspected illegal aliens on sight would be a horrendous error and serious people are concerned about it happening.

At the federal government–maintained borders, where a war is going on, the violence is already out of control and growing. The conditions we have created with illegal trafficking in immigrants is serious, but the recent escalation has involved the drug cartels and border guards, the military, and the police, a consequence of the ridiculous notion that drug prohibition is a sensible social policy.

Everyone by now should know that our current war on drugs makes no more sense than alcohol prohibition did in the 1920s. One only needs to study the drug trade and corruption ongoing in Afghanistan to see the danger of the war on drugs. The huge profits that can be made are a significant incentive for corruption across the board.

Even with a healthy economy and stricter border controls, the issue of what to do with twelve-million-plus illegals already here would persist. One side says use the U.S. Army, round them up, and ship them home. The other side says give them amnesty, make them full-fledged citizens, and reward the lawbreakers, thus insulting and unfairly penalizing those who have patiently waited and obeyed our immigration laws.

The first choice—sending twelve to fifteen million illegals home—isn't going to happen and should not happen. Neither the determination or the ability to accomplish it exists. Besides, if each case is looked at separately, we would find ourselves splitting up families and deporting some who have lived here for decades, if not their entire life, and who never lived for any length of time in Mexico. This would hardly be a Good Samaritan approach to the problem. It would be incompatible with human rights.

The toughest part of showing any compassion or tolerance to the illegal immigrants who are very much Americanized is the tremendous encouragement it gives for more immigrants to come illegally and avoid the wait and bureaucracy. Considering what they face at home, they see the risk of sneaking in as being minor compared to the risk of dying in poverty in Central America.

Some of the resentment by Americans is that many immigrants are “Americanized” rather quickly.

Most immigrants do not come for handouts; rather, they come for survival reasons and have a work ethic superior to many of our own citizens who have grown dependent on welfare and unemployment benefits. This anger may reflect embarrassment as much as anything.

Many claim that illegal immigrants take American jobs. This is true, but most of the jobs they “take” are the ones unemployed Americans refuse at the wage offered. Rarely is this even minimum wage; it’s usually higher. It’s hard to hide the fact that resentment toward a Hispanic immigrant is more common than that toward a European illegal immigrant.

Immigration laws, out of practicality, can never be equally enforced on those who have been assimilated for five to ten or even twenty years as compared to those caught currently coming through our border states in the Southwest. On the immigration issue I have found no one with the wisdom of Solomon. My humble suggestions on what to do follow.

Restore our economy to a healthy free market with sound money and eliminate deficit-financed government. A vibrant economy will minimize the problems and produce a high demand for both domestic and immigrant labor.

Abolish the welfare state. The incentive to always take a job—at whatever wage available—must prevail. A healthy economy, absent Federal Reserve–induced recession or depression and inflation, will keep real wages high.

With free markets and private property, a need for immigrant labor becomes obvious. Make it legal and easy with a generous visitor work program.

Enforce the laws now on the books with more border guards; permit states to enforce the law; allow landowners to provide private property security assistance, just as we do every day throughout the United States, and to work with Federal Border Control authorities. Private landowners have a right to post No Trespassing signs on their property to achieve this.

Do not grant automatic citizenship to children of illegal immigrants born in the United States, deliberately or accidentally.

Stop all federal mandates on the states to provide free education and medical care for illegal immigrants. The absurdity that South Texas schools are overburdened with Mexican children going back and forth over the border each day to our public school systems is resented by cash-strapped school districts.

Bilingualism should always be voluntary and not compelled by law.

Don’t punish third parties for not being keen to act as law enforcement agents in regard to illegal immigration. Blaming American employers and fining them for hiring an individual, directly or indirectly, possibly with a counterfeit identification, strikes me as a compulsory servitude not permitted under the Constitution. Determining who is legal or not is a police and court function, not a responsibility of private business.

Same goes for the Catholic Church. When those who suffer the chaos of immigration and drug wars on the border are helped by the Church, the Church should never be seen as an accomplice to a crime. Let the Church show the compassion that’s required to pick up the pieces of a government-created mess.

End the drug war. The deteriorating economic conditions and the mess with immigration invite the violence of the drug lords and corrupt officials on both sides. It’s time to break up the coalition of the religious drug warriors and the drug dealers who fight any effort to decriminalize drugs. It’s time to treat all drugs the way we treat alcohol and cigarettes, substances that kill millions more than hard drugs do. The drug war is deadly and allows drug lords to make a lot more money than legalized drugs ever would. The drug war and the illegal immigration across our southern borders cannot be separated.

Immigrants who can’t be sent back due to the magnitude of the problem should not be given citizenship—no amnesty should be granted. Maybe a “green card” with an asterisk could be issued. This in-between status, keeping illegal immigrants in limbo, will be condemned by the welfare left as being too harsh and condemned by the confused right as being too generous. It will be said that it will create a class of second-class citizens. Yet it could be argued that it may well allow some immigrants who come here illegally a beneficial status without automatic citizenship or tax-supported benefits—a much better option than deportation.

Those immigrants, legal or illegal, who incite violence or commit crimes of violence should be prosecuted under the law and lose their right to stay in this country.

The police should not be prohibited from determining an individual’s citizenship if the person is caught participating in a crime. This is far different from stopping anyone anytime and demanding the individual present documentation of a legal status. That invokes the principle of “reasonable cause,” not reasonable suspicion.

This solution is far from perfect, but solutions to government-induced problems are never easy. Since our economic problems have been the major contributing factor, all other solutions come up short. Maximum freedom for everyone is the best way to go in solving any of our problems.

Another concern I have with the immigration issue is that the strong border protection proponents are as interested in regulating our right to freely exit the country as they are in preventing illegal entry. No longer can we travel even to Canada or Mexico without a U.S. passport. Our government keeps tabs on our every move, which involves a lot more than looking for drug dealers, illegal immigrants, or stopping a potential terrorist.

Financial controls have been growing since the 1970s, and as the financial crisis worsens, not only will our coming and going be closely monitored, so will all our financial transactions.

Taking your money out of the country physically or electronically is strictly regulated by the eagle eyes of the FBI, the CIA, the Department of Homeland Security, and, you would never guess, the IRS as well. Violations of currency transaction laws, even when not associated with any criminal activity, are severely punished. Expatriation is frowned upon. Currency controls—limits on all overseas transactions and purchases—are commonplace in a faltering economy with a falling currency, which we will have to deal with one day.

A tight border policy to keep certain people out is one thing, but tight border control to limit our ability to leave when we please is something else. America is already working on an electronic financial curtain, which I predict will steadily get worse. The leaders of neither the Republican nor the Democratic party can expect to protect our civil liberties when times get tough: Both support illegal wars; both support Patriot Act suppression of our privacy; both strongly endorse the multitrillion dollar bailout of Wall Street. Neither party will protect our right to vote with our feet and take our money with us. The right of a citizen to leave the country anytime with his wealth and without government interference is a sharp dividing line between a free society and a dictatorship.

We must be vigilant when the cry is for closed borders, since such a policy may turn out to be more harmful to us than those who come here illegally. The Patriot Act did great harm to the liberties of the American people, and that sacrifice has not made us safer. Arizona-type immigration legislation can turn out to be harmful. Being able to stop any American citizen under the vague charge of “suspicion” is dangerous, even more so in the age of secret prisons and a stated position of assassinating American citizens if deemed a “threat,” without charges ever being made. The Real ID, supported by those demanding stricter control of our borders, was rejected by many because it was eventually seen as a step toward a national ID card.

There’s no reason to assume that any single group of hardworking Americans won’t accept the principles of a free society. That’s what most immigrants seek regardless of the color of their skin. Why shouldn’t they be open to the arguments of defending private property, free markets, sound money, right to life, low taxes, less war, protection of civil liberties, and especially a foreign policy designed for peace rather than perpetual war?

Some conservatives and Republicans, in my view, insult many minorities by appealing for their votes only by trying to outdo the Democrats with giveaway programs. Why shouldn't a strong message of personal liberty, self-reliance, and economic opportunity be appealing to immigrants as well as lifelong citizens? With the total failure of the welfare state and our foreign policy, it will become more evident that the door is wide open for the solutions that a free society provides.

Paul, Ron (2011-04-19). Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our Freedom (Kindle Locations 1928-2045). Grand Central Publishing. Kindle Edition.

[Carlybee]

And is this not what I have been saying?


Enforce the laws now on the books with more border guards; permit states to enforce the law; allow landowners to provide private property security assistance, just as we do every day throughout the United States, and to work with Federal Border Control authorities. Private landowners have a right to post No Trespassing signs on their property to achieve this.

Do not grant automatic citizenship to children of illegal immigrants born in the United States, deliberately or accidentally.

Stop all federal mandates on the states to provide free education and medical care for illegal immigrants. The absurdity that South Texas schools are overburdened with Mexican children going back and forth over the border each day to our public school systems is resented by cash-strapped school districts.



I disagree with him in a couple of ways but the main gist of it I support.

[Ender]

Paul, Ron (2011-04-19). Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our Freedom (Kindle Locations 1928-2045). Grand Central Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Thank you- awesome ponderings by RP.

[kcchiefs6465]

And is this not what I have been saying?

I disagree with him in a couple of ways but the main gist of it I support.
Why do you think I posted it?

There were a few points made that illustrate my position (more or less) that could have been posted absent the entirety... the entire context was warranted. I could go through and illustrate the points on which Ron Paul is correct (I think this should be especially noted: "This solution is far from perfect, but solutions to government-induced problems are never easy. Since our economic problems have been the major contributing factor, all other solutions come up short. Maximum freedom for everyone is the best way to go in solving any of our problems.") and I could illustrate that he is wrong on a few things (notably border agents.... if he wishes to fund them, that would be his prerogative. Lysander Spooner effectively destroyed any case to be had with regards to the social contract theory in No Treason).

I figured you'd enjoy the read. I do think that my arguments in favor of that which I've argued (that I should not be robbed to pay for both the immigrant's journey and/or lifestyle as well as interdiction efforts) have been sound.

[Carlybee]

Why do you think I posted it?

There were a few points made that illustrate my position (more or less) that could have been posted absent the entirety... the entire context was warranted. I could go through and illustrate the points on which Ron Paul is correct (I think this should be especially noted: "This solution is far from perfect, but solutions to government-induced problems are never easy. Since our economic problems have been the major contributing factor, all other solutions come up short. Maximum freedom for everyone is the best way to go in solving any of our problems.") and I could illustrate that he is wrong on a few things (notably border agents.... if he wishes to fund them, that would be his prerogative. Lysander Spooner effectively destroyed any case to be had with regards to the social contract theory in No Treason).

I figured you'd enjoy the read. I do think that my arguments in favor of that which I've argued (that I should not be robbed to pay for both the immigrant's journey and/or lifestyle as well as interdiction efforts) have been sound.

Look I don't particularly want to pay for any additional interdiction efforts. Ideally this would be something a state militia (in our case a state national guard reserve) (I dont trust the border patrol or local law enforcement) and as RP said working with property owners, but unfortunately we have a governor who contradicts himself at every turn saying on one hand he wants no federal help and on the other hand saying he does. However, I do know that if this continues at this pace the states affected are going to be in big trouble economically...actually the state itself won't be...they'll just pass it on to the homeowners and taxpayers.

[Zippyjuan]

the entire situation has been orchestrated by the Obama administration in an effort to increase their voter base ahead of the upcoming national elections this year and in 2016.

IF the amnesty law is passed (and still a big if), those eligible could APPLY for citizenship after another ten years. Then the process takes several more years. (and recent border crosser are not eligible for the program) which would only apply to those who have already been here and going to school and working for at least ten years). Only after being granted citizenship (assuming they make it though all that process) can they then register to vote. It would be impossible for them to vote in 2016- maybe in fifteen to twenty years.

[Zippyjuan]

Look I don't particularly want to pay for any additional interdiction efforts. Ideally this would be something a state militia (in our case a state national guard reserve) (I dont trust the border patrol or local law enforcement) and as RP said working with property owners, but unfortunately we have a governor who contradicts himself at every turn saying on one hand he wants no federal help and on the other hand saying he does. However, I do know that if this continues at this pace the states affected are going to be in big trouble economically...actually the state itself won't be...they'll just pass it on to the homeowners and taxpayers.

A state militia or National Guard Reserve is still paid for by your taxes.


(I dont trust the border patrol or local law enforcement)

National Guard or state militia would still be a local or national government enforcement force.

Who would be responsible for "due process"- insuring that those suspected of being here illegally are proven to be so (and those "suspected" or "accused" of being here illegally separated out)? This is one reason that it takes time to expel those coming now- deciding who deserves to be deported (thousands have been getting deported but it is getting harder to keep up on the process).

[Carlybee]

A state militia or National Guard Reserve is still paid for by your taxes.



National Guard or state militia would still be a local or national government enforcement force.

Who would be responsible for "due process"- insuring that those suspected of being here illegally are proven to be so (and those "suspected" or "accused" of being here illegally separated out)? This is one reason that it takes time to expel those coming now- deciding who deserves to be deported (thousands have been getting deported but it is getting harder to keep up on the process).

They are paid for by my taxes anyway..regardless what their assignment is. And my concern is keeping them out. Not much good in doing much about the ones who are already here except to cut off entitlements.

[Zippyjuan]

They are paid for by my taxes anyway..regardless what their assignment is. And my concern is keeping them out. Not much good in doing much about the ones who are already here except to cut off entitlements.

Talk to your state. They are not eligible for Federal entitlements like food stamps (SNAP), Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid, Obamacare.

[Carlybee]

Talk to your state. They are not eligible for Federal entitlements like food stamps (SNAP), Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid, Obamacare.

No they are not eligible but they get them. Social services is inept and rarely verify. Ron Paul has spoken about this. Recently in Nevada they found 4000 had been added to Obamacare with subsidies. Seriously Juan have you looked at anything I have posted? Do you think my state cares? Do you think they aren't aware of the fraud? They don't even do anything about the legal citizen fraud. Oh and if they go undetected long enough they can work a few years and draw social security. The agencies in charge have probably been told to look the other way, just like ICE at the border recently.

[P3ter_Griffin]

They are paid for by my taxes anyway..regardless what their assignment is. And my concern is keeping them out. Not much good in doing much about the ones who are already here except to cut off entitlements.

Finally some honesty from you. Why don't you, instead of demagoguing that your opposition wants welfare for immigrants, argue your beliefs. Protectionism has been pretty well destroyed around here, but at least your arguments wouldn't be based off strawmen.

[LibForestPaul]

I don't give a shit what the law says, natural rights >>>>>> social contract theory.

And when did I say we live in a free market? We obviously don't with the current levels of government intervention, so I'm arguing for a move in that direction. Giving the government power over immigration does not accomplish that and only sets us back further. As has been pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. You cannot expand freedom by taking it away at the same time.

When you stop paying you income tax, then I will listen to your bull. Let me know how that natural rights > social contract theory works out for you. I'll be your pen pale.

[Carlybee]

Finally some honesty from you. Why don't you, instead of demagoguing that your opposition wants welfare for immigrants, argue your beliefs. Protectionism has been pretty well destroyed around here, but at least your arguments wouldn't be based off strawmen.


My concern is keeping them out until there is some sort of reform, ie, getting rid of entitlements. And I am referring to the current influx of thousands of them coming over. I am not against immigration itself. Most people who immigrate legally are not here because of the freebies. They come here because they are interested in having a stake in the country. Call it what you want. I am not calling for rounding up the ones already here. I do think this current exodus...mostly out of Central America needs to be stopped before it gets any worse. I do feel badly for people down there who are afraid for their lives, but instead of putting pressure on those countries to take care of their own citizens, we send them money.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

When you stop paying you income tax, then I will listen to your bull. Let me know how that natural rights > social contract theory works out for you. I'll be your pen pale.

Where did I say anything about not paying my income tax? Just because I don't want to go to jail doesn't mean that the law is any less bullshit.

But let me know how continuing to grant the government an immoral power works out for you, since, you know, the government never abuses abuses its authority. Yup, that piece of paper keeps everyone in check and has never allowed the government to increase its powers...

[AuH20]

A Japanese American Professor Who Understands What Is At Work.

http://www.infowars.com/uc-professor-immigration-influx-is-about-re-education-of-society/


Hamamoto warns that the influx of illegal immigrants into the U.S. and by extension into the college education system is part of a deliberate plot, “to exclude the American middle class from a UC education and create a new demographic of largely immigrant or foreign national undergraduate population that can be re-educated from the ground up and controlled much more readily.”

Hamamoto’s warning is noteworthy given his position at one of the most liberal institutions in the United States. The professor acknowledged that his vocal stance against illegal immigration has already prompted a backlash, but that he had no reservations in going public.

“I am fairly certain that this is also going on at UT and other “public” institutions of higher learning, so Infowars subscribers will “get it,” wrote Hamamoto. “Everyone else will be really pissed off at me….I am already being harassed by the administration and informed on by trained student-rats, so truly this is not a risk for me.”

It's about replacing unpredictable Americans with subservient, dependent foreigners who are just happy to survive, essentially ushering in the perfect slave class to serve the elites and their interests. Think about it. A group of slaves that refuse firearm ownership and openly embrace the state? Does it not get any better than that? If I was an elite I could sleep easy knowing how easily I could buy off and control Latinos.

[LibForestPaul]

A Japanese American Professor Who Understands What Is At Work.

http://www.infowars.com/uc-professor-immigration-influx-is-about-re-education-of-society/


It's about replacing unpredictable Americans with subservient, dependent foreigners who are just happy to survive, essentially ushering in the perfect slave class to serve the elites and their interests. Think about it. A group of slaves that refuse firearm ownership and openly embrace the state? Does it not get any better than that? If I was an elite I could sleep easy knowing how easily I could buy off and control Latinos.

What does one do with a government that not only no longer serves its people it has been entrusted to represent, but actively attempts to undermine their life, their liberties, and their pursuit of happiness?

[NIU Students for Liberty]

A Japanese American Professor Who Understands What Is At Work.

http://www.infowars.com/uc-professor-immigration-influx-is-about-re-education-of-society/


It's about replacing unpredictable Americans with subservient, dependent foreigners who are just happy to survive, essentially ushering in the perfect slave class to serve the elites and their interests. Think about it. A group of slaves that refuse firearm ownership and openly embrace the state? Does it not get any better than that? If I was an elite I could sleep easy knowing how easily I could buy off and control Latinos.

Yes, a group of hard working men and women that are taking the jobs that American citizens won't fulfill also happen to be a part of some covert plot to install Marxism. And when you mention embracing the state, do you not realize that what you are advocating for gives more power to the state in regards to economic and civil liberties?

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/47674010.jpg

This is how ridiculous you sound.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

What does one do with a government that not only no longer serves its people it has been entrusted to represent, but actively attempts to undermine their life, their liberties, and their pursuit of happiness?

I don't know, maybe end policies that restrict the movement of human beings?

[LibertyEagle]

I don't know, maybe end policies that restrict the movement of human beings?

Not everyone in the world wants to live under the same set of principles. So, those who do, carve out a piece of the world for themselves. Others can do the same.

Just because someone has legs to walk into that area, does not mean they agree to those principles.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Not everyone in the world wants to live under the same set of principles.

So let's use coercion to force everyone else to abide by the policies you prefer?

[TheCount]

Not everyone in the world wants to live under the same set of principles.


If movement was free, why would a person move to an area with principles different from their own?

[LibertyEagle]

If movement was free, why would a person move to an area with principles different from their own?

Handouts. Where ya been?

[LibertyEagle]

So let's use coercion to force everyone else to abide by the policies you prefer?

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I don't think you are, either. This country was founded on certain principles. It is those same principles that Ron Paul has been fighting for all his life. The fact that an illegal alien doesn't like those principles... I fail to see why I should give a damn.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I don't think you are, either. This country was founded on certain principles. It is those same principles that Ron Paul has been fighting for all his life. The fact that an illegal alien doesn't like those principles... I fail to see why I should give a damn.

You mean principles like freedom? Pretty sure open immigration, which is what the U.S. was founded on, falls under that principle. Telling someone that they can't cross an imaginary line and interact with another consenting party on THEIR private property is the complete opposite of that.

[Carlybee]

You mean principles like freedom? Pretty sure open immigration, which is what the U.S. was founded on, falls under that principle. Telling someone that they can't cross an imaginary line and interact with another consenting party on THEIR private property is the complete opposite of that.

When I am taxed to pay for their freebies that I certainly don't get, they are compromising my liberty. You keep ignoring that fact or act like it's no big deal. If I don't believe in welfare, have never drawn welfare why should I support them coming here to get it on my dime? I don't think you even know wtf is going on at the border right now.

[Zippyjuan]

My concern is keeping them out until there is some sort of reform, ie, getting rid of entitlements. And I am referring to the current influx of thousands of them coming over. I am not against immigration itself. Most people who immigrate legally are not here because of the freebies. They come here because they are interested in having a stake in the country. Call it what you want. I am not calling for rounding up the ones already here. I do think this current exodus...mostly out of Central America needs to be stopped before it gets any worse. I do feel badly for people down there who are afraid for their lives, but instead of putting pressure on those countries to take care of their own citizens, we send them money.

Bold part we definately agree on.

[Ender]

A Japanese American Professor Who Understands What Is At Work.

http://www.infowars.com/uc-professor-immigration-influx-is-about-re-education-of-society/


It's about replacing unpredictable Americans with subservient, dependent foreigners who are just happy to survive, essentially ushering in the perfect slave class to serve the elites and their interests. Think about it. A group of slaves that refuse firearm ownership and openly embrace the state? Does it not get any better than that? If I was an elite I could sleep easy knowing how easily I could buy off and control Latinos.

That is exactly why the public school system was concocted; has nothing to do with foreigners.

As far as Latinos go- which is it: They come here to form gangs and terrorize or they come here to comply and refuse firearm ownership?

And if you think you can easily "buy off and control Latinos" you don't know very many Latinos.

[Ender]

Though life in Ireland was cruel, emigrating to America was not a joyful event...it was referred to as the American Wake for these people knew they would never see Ireland again. Those who pursued this path did so only because they new their future in Ireland would only be more poverty, disease, and English oppression. America became their dream. Early immigrant letters described it as a land of abundance and urged others to follow them through the "Golden Door." These letters were read at social events encouraging the young to join them in this wonderful new country. They left in droves on ships that were so crowded, with conditions so terrible, that they were referred to as Coffin Ships.

Even as the boat was docking, these immigrants to America learned that life in America was going to be a battle for survival. Hundreds of runners, usually large greedy men, swarmed aboard the ship grabbing immigrants and their bags trying to force them to their favorite tenement house and then exact an outrageous fee for their services. As the poor immigrant had no means of moving on, they settled in the port of arrival. Almshouses were filled with these Irish immigrants. They begged on every street. One honest immigrant wrote home at the height of the potato famine exodus, "My master is a great tyrant, he treats me as badly as if I was a common Irishman." The writer further added, "Our position in America is one of shame and poverty." No group was considered lower than an Irishman in America during the 1850s.

Free land did not lure them. They rejected the land for the land had rejected them; yet even so they always spoke reverently of the old sod in Ireland. All major cities had their "Irish Town" or "Shanty Town" where the Irish clung together. Our immigrant ancestors were not wanted in America. Ads for employment often were followed by "NO IRISH NEED APPLY." They were forced to live in cellars and shanties, partly because of poverty but also because they were considered bad for the neighborhood...they were unfamiliar with plumbing and running water. These living conditions bred sickness and early death. It was estimated that 80% of all infants born to Irish immigrants in New York City died. Their brogue and dress provoked ridicule; their poverty and illiteracy provoked scorn.

The Chicago Post wrote, "The Irish fill our prisons, our poor houses...Scratch a convict or a pauper, and the chances are that you tickle the skin of an Irish Catholic. Putting them on a boat and sending them home would end crime in this country."

http://www.kinsella.org/history/histira.htm

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[TheCount]

Handouts. Where ya been? Socialism is a principle. People who agree with the principle of socialism would move to areas with socialism, and others would leave. Where's the problem again, exactly?

[Carlybee]

Socialism is a principle. People who agree with the principle of socialism would move to areas with socialism, and others would leave. Where's the problem again, exactly?


Yes because Texas is so well known as a socialist haven.

[Carlybee]

http://www.kinsella.org/history/histira.htm

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Except that the current influx of immigrants have not only been encouraged to come here and work but they have been allowed to take advantage of social services. Those who have gone through the legal process are not allowed to do that. They have to sign a document before they get a visa stating they will not ask nor apply for assistance. The fact that millions of illegal immigrants are living here, working here, many getting entitlements should tell you that they have been treated anything but like the Irish. Also MY Northern Irish immigrant ancestors came here, bought land..some received land grants, farmed the land, improved the land and fought the British for the land. They didn't just tumble off the ship expecting a handout. You keep trying to infer an element of racism here. This has nothing to do with race. It has to do with a group of people encouraged by their own country to come here and take advantage of a flawed system funded by taxpayers. Are you even aware there are thousands of children traveling unescorted from Central America through Mexico to come here and when they get here we have to house, clothe and feed them? Not to mention the fact that it is perilous to them to travel like that. Many are kidnapped and brought here by human slavery rings and forced to work as prostitutes. But I guess that's okay cause ....liberty.

[Carlybee]

Zuckerbergs for amnesty....think of all those cheap high tech workers. Who gives a damn if people here get replaced. Mo unemployment...yay. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/06/26/Zuckerberg-s-FWD-us-Launches-Day-of-Action-for-Amnesty

[kcchiefs6465]

Zuckerbergs for amnesty....think of all those cheap high tech workers. Who gives a damn if people here get replaced. Mo unemployment...yay. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/06/26/Zuckerberg-s-FWD-us-Launches-Day-of-Action-for-Amnesty
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/44145

[Carlybee]

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/44145


Bastiat asserted that the sole purpose of government is to protect the right of an individual to life, liberty, and property.


"I do not dispute their right to invent social combinations, to advertise them, to advocate them, and to try them upon themselves, at their own expense and risk. But I do dispute their right to impose these plans upon us by law – by force – and to compel us to pay for them with our taxes". Bastiat

And that is exactly what is happening with forced integration.


To the OP....Yes..WE are paying,

[charrob]

Zuckerbergs for amnesty....think of all those cheap high tech workers. Who gives a damn if people here get replaced. Mo unemployment...yay. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/06/26/Zuckerberg-s-FWD-us-Launches-Day-of-Action-for-Amnesty

That's been going on for years. Middle class Americans in their 50's and 60's who are not ready to retire but have worked hard their whole lives and accrued vacation, pensions, etc., are being made to train immigrants from China and India to take their tech jobs IN ORDER TO GET SEVERANCE PAY. Many of these Americans then lose everything-- their home, and their life. In the meantime these immigrants works at 1/2 the cost and the Zuckerbergs laugh all the way to the bank. It's despicable.

If this immigration bill goes through, they plan to *TRIPLE* legal immigration. Because of chain migration, by 2040 there will be an additional 100 million humans living in the United States. About 1/3 more than we have right now.

The center and north parts of the country may not see this as a problem and say 'the country has lots of room'. Unfortunately these people will migrate to more populated areas simply because those areas have the jobs and those areas are nicer to live in. As it is on the east and west coasts, the roads are a parking lot 24 hours a day. How many more lanes are we going to add to the highways. Instead of the current 10 lanes (5 each way) are we going to have 20 lanes? When is enough enough? Do we all have to crawl on top of each other before people finally admit the politically incorrect conclusion that overpopulation decreases everyone's standard of living?

[kcchiefs6465]

Bastiat asserted that the sole purpose of government is to protect the right of an individual to life, liberty, and property.

"I do not dispute their right to invent social combinations, to advertise them, to advocate them, and to try them upon themselves, at their own expense and risk. But I do dispute their right to impose these plans upon us by law – by force – and to compel us to pay for them with our taxes". Bastiat

And that is exactly what is happening with forced integration.

To the OP....Yes..WE are paying,
One, have you read the book?

Two, forced 'integration', huh?

Three, the irony of you posting that quote slipped you.

[Carlybee]

One, have you read the book?

Two, forced 'integration', huh?

Three, the irony of you posting that quote slipped you.


The quote speaks exactly to the current administration encouraging illegals to come here while we pay for it. And yes when it's being charged to the taxpayer without our consent it is forced. Really? I'm at work...you want me to read a book before I comment? I own that book. I reserve the right to analogize to the current situation. Until we actually have a free market that is an ideal not a reality.

[AuH20]

http://www.kinsella.org/history/histira.htm

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Too bad the current numbers dwarf immigration from the late 1800s. We were dealing with hundred thousands as opposed to millions. Secondly, we have a robust welfare state and multilingual aids that counter the assimilation process. Many incoming immigrants from south of the border are not even literate in their own language!!! How limited are their job prospects and prospects for upward economic mobility in an anglo dominated business climate? There is a reason why the Latino high school dropout rate is double that of both white and black Americans.

[Carlybee]

Study: All Employment Growth Since 2000 Went to Immigrants
By NRO Staff
June 26, 2014 7:22


According to a major new report from the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), net employment growth in the United States since 2000 has gone entirely to immigrants, legal and illegal. Using data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, CIS scholars Steven A. Camarota and Karen Zeigler found that there were 127,000 fewer working-age natives holding a job in the first quarter of 2014 than in 2000, while the number of immigrants with a job was 5.7 million above the 2000 level.

The rapidity with which immigrants recovered from the Great Recession, as well as the fact that they held a disproportionate share of jobs relative to their share of population growth before the recession, help to explain their findings, the authors report. In addition, native-born Americans and immigrants were affected differently by the recession.

Other significant findings include:

Because the native-born population grew significantly, but the number working actually fell, there were 17 million more working-age natives not working in the first quarter of 2014 than in 2000.
The share of natives working or looking for work, referred to as labor force participation, shows the same decline as the employment rate. In fact, labor force participation has continued to decline for working-age natives even after the jobs recovery began in 2010.
Immigrants have made gains across the labor market, including lower-skilled jobs such as maintenance, construction, and food service; middle-skilled jobs like office support and health care support; and high*er-skilled jobs, including management, computers, and health care practitioners.
The supply of potential workers is enormous: 8.7 million native college graduates are not working, as are 17 million with some college, and 25.3 million with no more than a high school education.
According to the study, 58 million working-age natives are not employed.

Camarota and Zeigler report three conclusions:

First, the long-term decline in the employment for natives across age and education levels is a clear in*dication that there is no general labor shortage, which is a primary justification for the large increases in immigration (skilled and unskilled) in the Schumer-Rubio bill and similar House proposals.
Second, the decline in work among the native-born over the last 14 years of high immigration is consis*tent with research showing that immigration reduces employment for natives.
Third, the trends since 2000 challenge the argument that immigration on balance increases job oppor*tunities for natives. Over 17 million immigrants arrived in the country in the last 14 years, yet native employment has deteriorated significantly.
The Center for Immigration Studies is a non-profit research institute. Founded in 1985, the organization is regularly consulted by policymakers, the academic community, and the media on matters of immigration policy.




*enter argument that Americans are too lazy to work...

[HOLLYWOOD]

Take a trip to Silicon Valley and you can see exactly what's going on in this country. Annually(11 years now) I get confirmation by an executive contact in Human Resources of a Fortune 500 company the 'importing of bodies' plan continues. Don't let anybody tell you, this immigration influx is not happening on purpose. Notice all the jawing going on in Washington, yet the same corporate welfare continues as CEOs move jobs overseas and dilute workers within the borders. It'
s not free markets, it's racketeering and organized crime.


Study: All Employment Growth Since 2000 Went to Immigrants
By NRO Staff
June 26, 2014 7:22

According to a major new report from the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), net employment growth in the United States since 2000 has gone entirely to immigrants, legal and illegal. Using data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, CIS scholars Steven A. Camarota and Karen Zeigler found that there were 127,000 fewer working-age natives holding a job in the first quarter of 2014 than in 2000, while the number of immigrants with a job was 5.7 million above the 2000 level.

The rapidity with which immigrants recovered from the Great Recession, as well as the fact that they held a disproportionate share of jobs relative to their share of population growth before the recession, help to explain their findings, the authors report. In addition, native-born Americans and immigrants were affected differently by the recession.

[Carlybee]

Take a trip to Silicon Valley and you can see exactly what's going on in this country. Annually(11 years now) I get confirmation by an executive contact in Human Resources of a Fortune 500 company the 'importing of bodies' plan continues. Don't let anybody tell you, this immigration influx is not happening on purpose. Notice all the jawing going on in Washington, yet the same corporate welfare continues as CEOs move jobs overseas and dilute workers within the borders. It'
s not free markets, it's racketeering and organized crime.

It's killing the middle class and promotes anti wealth building. Kinda hard to stick anything back when your industry hires out your job cheaper and immediately devalues your earning power. Yes it creates competition...if you don't mind earning what you earned when you had no experience. It actually encourages people to apply for entitlements.

[AuH20]

What does one do with a government that not only no longer serves its people it has been entrusted to represent, but actively attempts to undermine their life, their liberties, and their pursuit of happiness?

Train for inevitable.

[Ender]

Too bad the current numbers dwarf immigration from the late 1800s. We were dealing with hundred thousands as opposed to millions. Secondly, we have a robust welfare state and multilingual aids that counter the assimilation process. Many incoming immigrants from south of the border are not even literate in their own language!!! How limited are their job prospects and prospects for upward economic mobility in an anglo dominated business climate? There is a reason why the Latino high school dropout rate is double that of both white and black Americans.


With hope for a brighter future, nearly 12 million immigrants arrived in the United States between 1870 and 1900. During the 1870s and 1880s, the vast majority of these people were from Germany, Ireland, and England--the principal sources of immigration before the Civil War.

12 million in 30 years, dude.

http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/presentationsandactivities/presentations/timeline/riseind/immgnts/

[Ender]

It's killing the middle class and promotes anti wealth building. Kinda hard to stick anything back when your industry hires out your job cheaper and immediately devalues your earning power. Yes it creates competition...if you don't mind earning what you earned when you had no experience. It actually encourages people to apply for entitlements.

This problem is NOT immigration- it is FED GOV regulation of private business. Get the government OUT and economic growth will be phenomenal.

[Carlybee]

This problem is NOT immigration- it is FED GOV regulation of private business. Get the government OUT and economic growth will be phenomenal.

Okay. Let's just wait. 2706

[Zippyjuan]

12 million in 30 years, dude.

http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/presentationsandactivities/presentations/timeline/riseind/immgnts/

As a percentage of the total population we had a lot more immigrants back then. (and negative two million in the last seven years dude).

Interesting tidbit:
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2014/06/26/fastest-growing-minority-group-in-2013-not-latinos-drop-in-immigration-may-be/


Fastest-Growing Minority Group In 2013? Not Latinos; Drop In Immigration May Be Cause

WASHINGTON (AP) – The United States Census Bureau released data on Thursday showing that the Latino population is no longer the fastest-growing minority group in the country.

Non-Hispanic whites are still by far the largest racial group in the United States with a population of 197.8 million. (All other racial and ethnic groups make up 37 percent of the population, or 118.3 million.) But Asians, not Hispanics, were the fastest-growing group in 2013.

The country's Asian population rose by almost 2.9 percent to 19.4 million, an increase of about 554,000. That increase was fueled by immigration, which accounted for 61 percent of the population increase.

While Asians grew the fastest last year, Hispanics still are the second-largest ethnic group in the United States, making up 17.1 percent of the total population in 2013. The Hispanic and Latino population grew by 2.1 percent to more than 54 million, a rise fueled by natural increase, which accounted for 78 percent of the of the total population change.


More at link.

[Carlybee]

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[Carlybee]

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[Carlybee]

2710

[Zippyjuan]

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/23/net-migration-from-mexico-falls-to-zero-and-perhaps-less/


Net Migration from Mexico Falls to Zero—and Perhaps Less

The largest wave of immigration in history from a single country to the United States has come to a standstill. After four decades that brought 12 million current immigrants—most of whom came illegally—the net migration flow from Mexico to the United States has stopped and may have reversed, according to a new analysis of government data from both countries by the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center.

The standstill appears to be the result of many factors, including the weakened U.S. job and housing construction markets, heightened border enforcement, a rise in deportations, the growing dangers associated with illegal border crossings, the long-term decline in Mexico’s birth rates and broader economic conditions in Mexico.

[Carlybee]

Border Patrol Looking To House Immigrants In Abandoned Warehouses Along Rio Grande





SOUTH TEXAS (KRLD) – More than 52,000 children have entered the country illegal in recent months, many of them coming into the U.S. through South Texas. Former Zapata County Sheriff Gonzales, who now works as a consult with law enforcement agencies along the Texas border, says space is running out to house the children and adults that are coming across.
“The local governments are being overwhelmed because of the possibilities for diseases. There are people that are being apprehended that are coming in with warrants for murders or prior convictions for child abuse, and these are the guys that are coming in the same groups with 12 year olds and 5 year olds,” says Zapata. “They’re looking at some centers in the valley… abandoned buildings where they’re going to put fences inside the buildings to create detention cells and just throw people in there. “
Zapata says the situation is unprecedented, but the closest comparison would be to how the Astrodome in Houston was used during Hurricane Katrina, when 25,000 evacuees were housed inside of it.


More. http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/06/27/report-border-patrol-looking-to-house-immigrants-in-abandoned-buildings-along-rio-grande/

[Carlybee]

http://www.krgv.com/news/brooks-county-ranchers-worry-about-criminal-immigrants/






FALFURRIAS - Sex offenders, murder suspects and gang members are making their way through the vast rangelands of Brooks County.

The Vickers ranch is one of the many land spreads affected by the surge in illegal immigration. What is more concerning to the ranch owners is the type of people trekking through their land.

Linda Vickers never wanders away from her house without her trusty canine companions - Blitz, Elsa, Schotten and Tinkerbell.

The dogs provide a sense of security in a land of insecurity.

"The safety factor out here has changed," Vickers said.

Vickers and her husband own and operate a nearly-1,000-acre ranch in Brooks County.

Vickers reports anyone who crosses her fence line to Border Patrol.

"As of yesterday, 196 illegal immigrants with 136 apprehensions by Border Patrol," she said.

The dogs sniff out those hiding in the brush.

"There are some good, helpless people. Then, there are some really bad ones," Vickers said.

Earlier this week, Vickers took a photo of a man on her front porch. She said the man had a Tango Blast tattoo.

Tango Blast is the largest and one of the most dangerous gangs operating in the state, according to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

"I sometimes have to take a step back and realize the jeopardy that could happen out here," Vickers said.

It's not just gang members that worry Vickers. Border Patrol agents arrested a wanted murderer near Falfurrias and sex offenders in the Rio Grande Valley last weekend.

"They're everywhere," Vickers said.

Border Patrol Spokesman Oscar Saldana said criminals won't turn themselves in like families and unaccompanied children.

"They may have something to hide," Saldana said. "Some of that criminal history can be very dangerous."

Still, Vickers won't leave her land.

"Even my husband couldn't blast me outta here," she said with a laugh

[kcchiefs6465]

The quote speaks exactly to the current administration encouraging illegals to come here while we pay for it.
It also speaks exactly of me being forced by certain protectionist busy bodies to pay for the interdiction of migrants.



And yes when it's being charged to the taxpayer without our consent it is forced.
Your true sentiments on the matter coming to light was more my point. You have gone from calling out welfare abusers, to caring about the plight of American workers, to wishing to be safe from a criminal element, to citing positivist laws to letting the point be known: integration is the issue.



Really? I'm at work...you want me to read a book before I comment?
It would be useful to read a book before commenting on it, yes.


I own that book. I reserve the right to analogize to the current situation. Until we actually have a free market that is an ideal not a reality.
Until we actually have a free market we cannot have a free market.

I wonder how far I could analogize that mind frame.

[Carlybee]

It also speaks exactly of me being forced by certain protectionist busy bodies to pay for the interdiction of migrants.


Your true sentiments on the matter coming to light was more my point. You have gone from calling out welfare abusers, to caring about the plight of American workers, to wishing to be safe from a criminal element, to citing positivist laws to letting the point be known: integration is the issue.


It would be useful to read a book before commenting on it, yes.


Until we actually have a free market we cannot have a free market.

I wonder how far I could analogize that mind frame.

Do you honestly think we can act on free market principles with a government that thinks it's okay to bring people with no stake in this country into the welfare system and charge it to the taxpayers? If you do then you must share their mindset which is contradictory to any sort of free market solution. So you can reference Bastiat all you want but the ideal doesn't match up to the reality. That's the whole damn reason we all wanted Ron Paul to win to begin with and I guess you've forgotten what they did to keep that from happening. So yes...until the PTB embraces the free market it's only either socialism or a form of fascism depending on who is in office. Meanwhile the border is being breached by parasites and criminals. And yes...forced integration is an antithesis to liberty.


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