Court convicts Adam Kokesh; could serve 15 years in prison

[Matt Collins]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/va-court-convicts-gun-rights-activist-adam-kokesh/2014/06/12/30eb6d3c-f262-11e3-9ebc-2ee6f81ed217_story.html






Gun rights activist Adam Kok*esh, (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/activist-adam-kokesh-has-history-of-rabble-rousing-and-self-promotion/2013/05/13/95a0ddcc-b986-11e2-bd07-b6e0e6152528_story.html) who was convicted of drug and gun charges Thursday in a Fairfax County court, did not contest the allegations, but he called the raid that led to his arrest “political persecution.”

Kokesh, 32, entered an Alford plea in Circuit Court to two felonies related to his possession of hallucinogenic mushrooms while possessing a gun. In an Alford plea, a defendant does not admit guilt but acknowledges that prosecutors have enough evidence to obtain a conviction.

Kokesh faces a maximum of 15 years in prison when he is sentenced Sept. 5.

Kokesh was arrested in July when federal and local authorities raided the Herndon home he shared with other activists.
Prosecutors said Thursday that police found 10 guns and drugs, including LSD, marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy and mushrooms.

[Natural Citizen]

Dang. Party huh?

[fr33]

Stuff like this is why I don't shed any tears over the Vegas cop-killers. It's unfortunate that the shooters were not reacting in self defense though. I don't cheer for such things but I also don't care.

But the officials involved in a case like in the OP; Yes, everyone of them deserve it from the top (judge and DA) to bottom (arresting officers and prison guards).

Arresting, prosecuting, and punishing someone for possessing weapons and/or drugs is insane.

[TomtheTinker]

I don't agree with Adam on every thing and he has certainly made multiple tactical blunders. But screw what your average non informed person has to say about him...at least he has a mind and a pair of balls. That's more than I can say about 95% of the people I meet these days. Although my situation is different, I know how it feels to be betrayed and jailed for a victimless crime...I'm going in for a year the 13th of august and I promise it will only make my convictions stronger. Bless Adam and all the men who aren't afraid to be men.

[Anti Federalist]

At no other time in your posting history, Matt, would you have been likely to post even a snip of the article in question.

Except in this case, in order to gloat over Kokesh possibly going to prison.

Enjoy your schadenfreude Matt, while you can.

All the rest of you as well.

Because in the end, we're all going to prison.

SMMFH in disgust...

[JK/SEA]

Matt does that because he doesn't like an online web site dedicated to RON PAUL to be inhabited by the likes of 'people' who may hold more 'radical' views...and as an example, behold Matts 'focus' on Adam Kokesh...

makes no sense to me why anybody would disparage someone like Adam due to other people supporting Ron Paul.

seems oppressive to me.

[Matt Collins]

he doesn't like an online web site dedicated to RON PAUL to be inhabited by the likes of 'people' who may hold more 'radical' views...No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

[Cleaner44]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

By riff-raff, you mean hobbits?

[phill4paul]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

riff-raff (noun)

1) an individual that does not play politics because they see it as useless.
2) an individual that seeks to educate for social change as opposed to working within a corrupt and unchangeable system.
3) an individual that does not support financially the efforts of those that claim to work within a corrupt and unchangeable political system.
4) an individual that is unacceptable because they are perceived to have low political status.

[bunklocoempire]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

I'm riff-raff. :( You just broke my heart there Matt -and I forgive you -you're young. I pray that you get an easy clue.

Not everyone resists in the same way, and God help me if I ever think I know the best way for another individual to resist.

The word of the month a lifetime? Conscience.

[Brian4Liberty]

So the American Bolsheviks want to send the anarchist agitator to Siberia on trumped up charges? Shocking!

[Barrex]

This is bad. He didnt hurt anyone.

I hope he doesnt go to jail... I also hope that he doesnt die while barricaded in his home resisting when they come to send him to jail.

[kcchiefs6465]

riff-raff (noun)

1) an individual that does not play politics because they see it as useless.
2) an individual that seeks to educate for social change as opposed to working within a corrupt and unchangeable system.
3) an individual that does not support financially the efforts of those that claim to work within a corrupt and unchangeable political system.
4) an individual that is unacceptable because they are perceived to have low political status.
5) an individual that posts MLM schemes in an effort to bilk fellow liberty minded folk out of what they can.

[CaptUSA]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.
Now, there's a winning strategy... :rolleyes:

Listen, I'm not really a fan of Kokesh. I think he's troubled and needs help. I think he could be an extremely valuable part of this movement if he could focus his energies.

But, at least he's doing something. Everyone has to do it in their own way, but dammit, don't shut them down when they do something. Liberty isn't just for those who share your opinions about how the strategy should work. Somehow, Matt, you think it's part of your job to sit in here and snipe at those that you think are doing it wrong. I see this as what I call "LP Syndrome". I was a member of the Libertarian Party for a couple decades, but they are afflicted with your same problem. They don't understand how infighting is far more damaging than simply allowing others to act in the manner they find most useful.

Matt, you're working your angle. That's great. But to think that your angle is the only one that should be pursued is just arrogance. And it is the same arrogance that is displayed in those who seek power. Understand a little more about this, and you will be more valuable to this movement yourself.

[donnay]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.


You seem to think you are something else-- don't flatter yourself. You think YOU make the movement look better by gloating about the misfortune of others? You remind me of those self-righteous neocons who pound their puffed out chest shouting, "LAW and ORDER!" Until they get caught breaking the very unconstitutional law they were all for.

Disgusting, really. With people such as yourself in this movement, I am becoming a political atheist more and more.

[JK/SEA]

by the way everyone, this thread isn't about Adam Kokesh, its about Matt Collins...

[JK/SEA]

You seem to think you are something else-- don't flatter yourself. You think YOU make the movement look better by gloating about the misfortune of others? You remind me of those self-righteous neocons who pound their puffed out chest shouting, "LAW and ORDER!" Until they get caught breaking the very unconstitutional law they were all for.

Disgusting, really. With people such as yourself in this movement, I am becoming a political atheist more and more.

this is Matts goal...to push the voices that infer a 'radical' ideal out of Ron Paul forums...

too bad Rev9 bailed, but i understand his frustration...

[CaptUSA]

Somehow, this seemed fitting.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10342899_732728950104126_3518761945007946176_n.png

[fisharmor]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

I think people who endorse Mitt Romney for president while Ron Paul is still in the race make this movement look bad.

[Matt Collins]

Somehow, this seemed fitting.If by power lust she also means greed, then yes. There is nothing wrong with power, just like there is nothing wrong with money. People rationally should seek to acquire both.

[Matt Collins]

I think people who endorse Mitt Romney for president while Ron Paul is still in the race make this movement look bad.Ron was no longer in the race at that point, he couldn't win, and wasn't running. Remember, he dropped out just before Rand made the endorsement.

[pcosmar]

At no other time in your posting history, Matt, would you have been likely to post even a snip of the article in question.

Except in this case, in order to gloat over Kokesh possibly going to prison.

Enjoy your schadenfreude Matt, while you can.

All the rest of you as well.

Because in the end, we're all going to prison.

SMMFH in disgust...

He expects to be spared for being a good toady.

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/016/1/9/Familiar_by_xJade1358x.jpg

[bunklocoempire]

At no other time in your posting history, Matt, would you have been likely to post even a snip of the article in question.

Except in this case, in order to gloat over Kokesh possibly going to prison.

Enjoy your schadenfreude Matt, while you can.

All the rest of you as well.

Because in the end, we're all going to prison.

SMMFH in disgust...

"Because in the end..."

Quoted for truth.

"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." B.F.

That's not a suggestion, it's a fact. That is wisdom that comes with experience.

It is certainly the strategy (twisted) that the opposition is employing -and isn't it telling when the opposition throws someone under the bus?

Doubt and fear is a killer.

[CaptUSA]

Disgusting, really. With people such as yourself in this movement, I am becoming a political atheist more and more.See this, Matt? THIS is the result of your division. It returns apathy to those who would be your allies.

[fisharmor]

Ron was no longer in the race at that point, he couldn't win, and wasn't running. Remember, he dropped out just before Rand made the endorsement.

No matter how many times you type this out, it still doesn't make it true.

[Cap]

Napoleon complex on display her folks.

[Matt Collins]

Listen, I'm not really a fan of Kokesh. I think he's troubled and needs help. I think he could be an extremely valuable part of this movement if he could focus his energies.

But, at least he's doing something. Everyone has to do it in their own way, but dammit, don't shut them down when they do something.Wrong, when someone actively damages the movement and hurts our chances at winning because they give ammo to the opposition to use against us, they need to be distanced. Guilt by association is a very viable tactic in politics which is why one must be careful about ones associations.



And it is the same arrogance that is displayed in those who seek power. Everyone who wants to change things should seek power. There is nothing wrong with seeking power, just like there is nothing wrong with acquiring money.

[Matt Collins]

No matter how many times you type this out, it still doesn't make it true.
Ron sent out an e-mail saying that he was no longer seeking the nomination. A day or two later Rand endorsed Romney. Are you incapable of remembering the facts? If so, go look it up.

[Cap]

See this, Matt? THIS is the result of your division. It returns apathy to those who would be your allies.He seriously doesn't care. There is a serious disconnect inside.

[Matt Collins]

You think YOU make the movement look better by gloating about the misfortune of others?

1- I am not gloating at all.

2- This wasn't "misfortune" as if he got hit by a tornado or something. This was the direct consequence of his own ill-conceived actions



I am becoming a political atheist more and more.I guess your rights don't mean anything to you then.

[CaptUSA]

Everyone who wants to change things should seek power. There is nothing wrong with seeking power, just like there is nothing wrong with acquiring money.Wow, that's a pretty good drug, you've tasted, eh? Let's hope they don't make it illegal - you'll end up just like Kokesh.

Wealth and power are not the same. Wealth happens when you give. Power happens when you take.

[Matt Collins]

See this, Matt? THIS is the result of your division. It returns apathy to those who would be your allies.No it's not... it's the result of someone who doesn't want to take the time and make the sacrifice and do the work necessary to win back our rights.

[Matt Collins]

Wealth and power are not the same. Wealth happens when you give. Power happens when you take.What is wrong with taking power from those who use it for their own self-interest?

[donnay]

Napoleon complex on display here folks.

Indeed. I could definitely see Matt working for DHS as a little snitch.

[DamianTV]

I thought the Drug Charges brought up against Kokesh were already declared in court as having been Falsified and were dropped?

[CaptUSA]

What is wrong with taking power from those who use it for their own self-interest?The goal should be to limit the power that others have taken. Not to take it for yourself.

[fisharmor]

Ron sent out an e-mail saying that he was no longer seeking the nomination. A day or two later Rand endorsed Romney. Are you incapable of remembering the facts? If so, go look it up.

I already have, troll.
Rand endorsed on 6/7/2012.
The stories that Ron had dropped out started on 5/14/2012.
Here are some of the stories quoting him as saying he didn't drop out.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/ron-paul-i-cant-win-the-nomination-but-im-not-dropping-out/2012/05/15/gIQAuPUNRU_blog.html
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/ron-paul-has-dropped-out-of-the-presidential-race-or-has-he.html
http://julieborowski.wordpress.com/2012/05/14/did-ron-paul-just-drop-out/

Were you to have done your homework, you'd realize that he ended active campaigning in PRIMARY states only on 5/14 and the media entered a feeding frenzy stating he had dropped out of the race. He continued campaigning in caucus states afterward.

Moreover, there IS NO NEWS ARTICLE STATING UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT HE ENDED HIS CAMPAIGN, because HE DID NOT END HIS CAMPAIGN.

So do us all a favor - fix your memory, because it's faulty. Or quit fucking lying through your teeth. Whichever is applicable.



ETA here's the full text of RP's email.

As I reflect on our 2012 Presidential campaign, I am humbled by the supporters who have worked so hard and sacrificed so much. And I am so proud of what we have accomplished. We will not stop until we have restored what once made America the greatest country in human history.This campaign fought hard and won electoral success that the talking heads and pundits never thought possible. But, this campaign is also about more than just the 2012 election. It has been part of a quest I began 40 years ago and that so many have joined. It is about the campaign for Liberty, which has taken a tremendous leap forward in this election and will continue to grow stronger in the future until we finally win.Our campaign will continue to work in the state convention process. We will continue to take leadership positions, win delegates, and carry a strong message to the Republican National Convention that Liberty is the way of the future.Moving forward, however, we will no longer spend resources campaigning in primaries in states that have not yet voted. Doing so with any hope of success would take many tens of millions of dollars we simply do not have. I encourage all supporters of Liberty to make sure you get to the polls and make your voices heard, particularly in the local, state, and Congressional elections, where so many defenders of Freedom are fighting and need your support.I hope all supporters of Liberty will remain deeply involved – become delegates, win office, and take leadership positions. I will be right there with you. In the coming days, my campaign leadership will lay out to you our delegate strategy and what you can do to help, so please stay tuned.For Liberty,Ron Paul

[purplechoe]

If by power lust she also means greed, then yes. There is nothing wrong with power, just like there is nothing wrong with money. People rationally should seek to acquire both.

Oh please, you've proven to us that you're ignorant about what Ron Paul stood for. Remember before the Ron Paul channel opened and you kept trying to have us not be so hung up on foreign policy and then a week or so later Ron said that it was one of the main reason he ran for president. You're either too stupid to understand this movement or are trolling it... :rolleyes:

[phill4paul]

No it's not... it's the result of someone who doesn't want to take the time and make the sacrifice and do the work necessary to win back our rights.

I was born with my rights. I don't need to win them back. I live and die with them. I would like for others to join with me in securing our natural rights. You. I do not need.

[tod evans]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

I'll have no part in your "we"......

Judging from the responses in this thread neither will many upstanding members here..

Just who do you think you are trying to include others in your hatred and bigotry?

[phill4paul]

I already have, troll.
Rand endorsed on 6/7/2012.
The stories that Ron had dropped out started on 5/14/2012.
Here are some of the stories quoting him as saying he didn't drop out.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/ron-paul-i-cant-win-the-nomination-but-im-not-dropping-out/2012/05/15/gIQAuPUNRU_blog.html
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/05/ron-paul-has-dropped-out-of-the-presidential-race-or-has-he.html
http://julieborowski.wordpress.com/2012/05/14/did-ron-paul-just-drop-out/

Were you to have done your homework, you'd realize that he ended active campaigning in PRIMARY states only on 5/14 and the media entered a feeding frenzy stating he had dropped out of the race. He continued campaigning in caucus states afterward.

Moreover, there IS NO NEWS ARTICLE STATING UNEQUIVOCALLY THAT HE ENDED HIS CAMPAIGN, because HE DID NOT END HIS CAMPAIGN.

So do us all a favor - fix your memory, because it's faulty. Or quit fucking lying through your teeth. Whichever is applicable.



ETA here's the full text of RP's email.

As I reflect on our 2012 Presidential campaign, I am humbled by the supporters who have worked so hard and sacrificed so much. And I am so proud of what we have accomplished. We will not stop until we have restored what once made America the greatest country in human history.This campaign fought hard and won electoral success that the talking heads and pundits never thought possible. But, this campaign is also about more than just the 2012 election. It has been part of a quest I began 40 years ago and that so many have joined. It is about the campaign for Liberty, which has taken a tremendous leap forward in this election and will continue to grow stronger in the future until we finally win.Our campaign will continue to work in the state convention process. We will continue to take leadership positions, win delegates, and carry a strong message to the Republican National Convention that Liberty is the way of the future.Moving forward, however, we will no longer spend resources campaigning in primaries in states that have not yet voted. Doing so with any hope of success would take many tens of millions of dollars we simply do not have. I encourage all supporters of Liberty to make sure you get to the polls and make your voices heard, particularly in the local, state, and Congressional elections, where so many defenders of Freedom are fighting and need your support.I hope all supporters of Liberty will remain deeply involved – become delegates, win office, and take leadership positions. I will be right there with you. In the coming days, my campaign leadership will lay out to you our delegate strategy and what you can do to help, so please stay tuned.For Liberty,Ron Paul

Thanks for that. Let's keep the facts front and center when teh Collinz is on the troll.

[purplechoe]

Wrong, when someone actively damages the movement and hurts our chances at winning because they give ammo to the opposition to use against us, they need to be distanced. Guilt by association is a very viable tactic in politics which is why one must be careful about ones associations.


Everyone who wants to change things should seek power. There is nothing wrong with seeking power, just like there is nothing wrong with acquiring money.


It's not your movement and you certainly don't represent Ron's views. I'm ashamed that I stood up for you on this forum in the past...

[donnay]

1- I am not gloating at all.

2- This wasn't "misfortune" as if he got hit by a tornado or something. This was the direct consequence of his own ill-conceived actions

The second amendment means what it says and says what it means. Civil disobedience is what keeps the spark of liberty going. The drugs they allegedly found, I believed were planted. They are notorious with doing things like this to activist in the past.



I guess your rights don't mean anything to you then.

My rights mean everything to me. They are unalienable. Do you know what that means? Maybe you ought to take a Michael Badnarik course to understand.

[Christian Liberty]

Stuff like this is why I don't shed any tears over the Vegas cop-killers. It's unfortunate that the shooters were not reacting in self defense though. I don't cheer for such things but I also don't care.

But the officials involved in a case like in the OP; Yes, everyone of them deserve it from the top (judge and DA) to bottom (arresting officers and prison guards).

Arresting, prosecuting, and punishing someone for possessing weapons and/or drugs is insane.

I hear you, but I have a hard time saying that they deserve death if they are still under the impression that what they are doing is right. I have a hard time being indifferent to death but I get your point. I'm not mourning them any more than I mourn the people who just die every day.


At no other time in your posting history, Matt, would you have been likely to post even a snip of the article in question.

Except in this case, in order to gloat over Kokesh possibly going to prison.

Enjoy your schadenfreude Matt, while you can.

All the rest of you as well.

Because in the end, we're all going to prison.

SMMFH in disgust...

I hope we can avoid going to prison, but otherwise I agree with you. Matt's gloating is repulsive. I think I'm going to report him. Bryan should ban this self-righteous cancer from his forum, because frankly, as far as I can tell, he's making the rest of us look bad.

You seem to think you are something else-- don't flatter yourself. You think YOU make the movement look better by gloating about the misfortune of others? You remind me of those self-righteous neocons who pound their puffed out chest shouting, "LAW and ORDER!" Until they get caught breaking the very unconstitutional law they were all for.

Disgusting, really. With people such as yourself in this movement, I am becoming a political atheist more and more.

Don't give up on the few decent people that are around over idiots like Collins. I think I'll pass on voting for Rand if Collins is working for his campaign, just out of spite. Yes I am that ticked.

I think people who endorse Mitt Romney for president while Ron Paul is still in the race make this movement look bad.

Agreed:p

I mean, I get why Rand did it, I dislike it but I get it. Rand's playing politics and I get that. But of all the things that make our movement look bad.

1- I am not gloating at all.

2- This wasn't "misfortune" as if he got hit by a tornado or something. This was the direct consequence of his own ill-conceived actions



What actions? Using drugs? I agree that that's foolhardy but it doesn't deserve any action from the State. Owning a gun? 2nd amendment hello!



I guess your rights don't mean anything to you then.

My rights mean a heck of a lot to me. Scumbags like you do not.

[Christian Liberty]

I'll have no part in your "we"......

Judging from the responses in this thread neither will many upstanding members here..

Just who do you think you are trying to include others in your hatred and bigotry?

Probly just compromise, TaftFan, and eduardo. I have no part in his "we" either. I rather like Kokesh actually. But even if I hated the man's guts, owning drugs and guns is no just cause for aggressive violence from the State. And if Kokesh defends himself, that is his right.

[fisharmor]

What actions? Using drugs? I agree that that's foolhardy but it doesn't deserve any action from the State.

Hey, if you don't want your dog shot, don't own a dog.
Your own ill-conceived actions are ultimately responsible for your dead dog, you know.

[Matt Collins]

The goal should be to limit the power that others have taken. Not to take it for yourself.You have to have power in order to diffuse it.

[Christian Liberty]

Hey, if you don't want your dog shot, don't own a dog.
Your own ill-conceived actions are ultimately responsible for your dead dog, you know.

Yeah, that's literally the stupidity of it. BTW: My reason for saying don't do drugs isn't even that cops will use aggression against you for it. I just happen to believe that its not a good idea. But, I have way more of an issue with people who wear the blue uniform than I do people who smoke pot or otherwise enjoy drugs without abusing family members or so forth.

[Matt Collins]

Were you to have done your homework, you'd realize that he ended active campaigning in PRIMARY states only on 5/14 and the media entered a feeding frenzy stating he had dropped out of the race. He continued campaigning in caucus states afterward.
That effectively meant ending campaigning. Can you not read between the lines? :rolleyes:

[Natural Citizen]

My rights mean everything to me. They are unalienable.

Pronounced unaleeeenable.

Just throwing that in for shits n giggles.:)

Is true none the less.

[Matt Collins]

I was born with my rights. I don't need to win them back. Try smoking a joint in front of a cop. Or try not paying property taxes. Then come back to me and tell me that you don't need to win back your rights :rolleyes:

[malkusm]

This thread makes me sad for several reasons, the main one being that I agree with Collins more than everyone else.

Regardless of what you think of the intent behind creation of the thread, it's a news story about a person who has been tied to libertarian causes in the past, and probably would have been posted anyway.

I fail to see the fallacy in stating that it's politically prudent to distance yourself from people who are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as loose cannons or bad apples, or from causes that can easily be used to mischaracterize your position. Lest we forget the lessons of Debra Medina et al.

Support Adam Kokesh privately if you wish, but do everyone a favor and don't associate him with libertarian principles - else libertarian principles become harder to sell to the electorate. Again, rightly or wrongly.

[ChristianAnarchist]

I've only met Kokesh a couple of times but I consider him a brother in the cause. I guess I'm riff-raff too...

[Matt Collins]

I think I'll pass on voting for Rand if Collins is working for his campaign, just out of spite. Yes I am that ticked.Then liberty is obviously not important to you if you are willing to give up just because you don't like someone.

[Matt Collins]

This thread makes me sad for several reasons, the main one being that I agree with Collins more than everyone else.

Regardless of what you think of the intent behind creation of the thread, it's a news story about a person who has been tied to libertarian causes in the past, and probably would have been posted anyway.

I fail to see the fallacy in stating that it's politically prudent to distance yourself from people who are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as loose cannons or bad apples, or from causes that can easily be used to mischaracterize your position. Lest we forget the lessons of Debra Medina et al.

Support Adam Kokesh privately if you wish, but do everyone a favor and don't associate him with libertarian principles - else libertarian principles become harder to sell to the electorate. Again, rightly or wrongly.



http://www.optionsbingo.org/bingo-card.gif

[CaptUSA]

You have to have power in order to diffuse it.Ok, Frodo... Be careful trying that ring on...

(Sorry... that was not meant to be offensive...)

[donnay]

Pronounced unaleeeenable.

Just throwing that in for shits n giggles.:)

Is true none the less.

Yes, you pronounced that right.


“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

"Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred." Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523.

Inalienable rights: Rights which are not capable of being surrendered or transferred without the consent of the one possessing such rights. Morrison v. State, Mo. App., 252 S.W.2d 97, 101.

http://www.unalienable.com/unalien.htm


"It does not take a majority to prevail... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men."
~ Samuel Adams

[Christian Liberty]

Then liberty is obviously not important to you if you are willing to give up just because you don't like someone.

Rand Paul is only a borderline liberty candidate at best. I don't despise him like some here, but I really don't think he'd do all that much. A Rand Presidency also has the potential to be disastrous. See here (http://reformedlibertarian.com/articles/politics/unfortunately-a-rand-paul-presidency-would-be-devastating-for-the-liberty-movement/) for an explanation of why.

All that said, you have no right to be lecturing anybody about their commitment to liberty.

[Christian Liberty]

This thread makes me sad for several reasons, the main one being that I agree with Collins more than everyone else.

Regardless of what you think of the intent behind creation of the thread, it's a news story about a person who has been tied to libertarian causes in the past, and probably would have been posted anyway.

I fail to see the fallacy in stating that it's politically prudent to distance yourself from people who are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as loose cannons or bad apples, or from causes that can easily be used to mischaracterize your position. Lest we forget the lessons of Debra Medina et al.

Support Adam Kokesh privately if you wish, but do everyone a favor and don't associate him with libertarian principles - else libertarian principles become harder to sell to the electorate. Again, rightly or wrongly.

I would have no issue with anyone else posting the thread, with the possible exception of compromise. AF identified exactly the problem with this thread. Collins never posts text from his links in threads. So its obvious that he's gloating here. Heck, I can't read signals like ever, and I can see what Collins is doing here. Its just painfully obvious.

As for "bad apples", I think civil disobedience is a completely valid tactic to use against the State. You don't have to do it, I don't do it either at present, but I don't see any issue with it either. I couldn't care less what boobus thinks about the people we support.

[DamianTV]

I thought the Drug Charges brought up against Kokesh were already declared in court as having been Falsified and were dropped?

Anyone? ^^^

(Trying to stay away from Collins Bashing in general, but a small quote from the article linked to, when allowed by that site, would be appreciated.)

[Natural Citizen]

Yes, you pronounced that right.


"Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred." Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523.

Inalienable rights: Rights which are not capable of being surrendered or transferred without the consent of the one possessing such rights. Morrison v. State, Mo. App., 252 S.W.2d 97, 101.

http://www.unalienable.com/unalien.htm


"It does not take a majority to prevail... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men."
~ Samuel Adams

Whew. Yer quick on the draw. Probably had all of that in yer head already, huh. :)

[donnay]

I would have no issue with anyone else posting the thread, with the possible exception of compromise. AF identified exactly the problem with this thread. Collins never posts text from his links in threads. So its obvious that he's gloating here. Heck, I can't read signals like ever, and I can see what Collins is doing here. Its just painfully obvious.

As for "bad apples", I think civil disobedience is a completely valid tactic to use against the State. You don't have to do it, I don't do it either at present, but I don't see any issue with it either. I couldn't care less what boobus thinks about the people we support.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Bingo_card_-_02.jpg/458px-Bingo_card_-_02.jpg

Case in point: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453927-TN-Agriculture-Officials-Unveil-Industrial-Hemp-Webpage-Draft-Licensing-Regs

[donnay]

Whew. Yer quick on the draw. Probably had all of that in yer head already, huh. :)

I guess you can say I had it in my head. ;) I have been an activist for a long time, railing about this very thing.

[phill4paul]

Try smoking a joint in front of a cop. Or try not paying property taxes. Then come back to me and tell me that you don't need to win back your rights :rolleyes:

Kokesh smoked and he got arrested. Tens of thousands do daily. They exercise their rights. Which is a helluva lot more than you will ever do. I don't pay taxes. Neither state nor federal. I do have to pay more than asking price from merchants that surcharge for the taxes they are responsible for collecting for the state or federal government. Since they are not allowed to operate without doing so and do not join me in in the big "fuck-you" and operate anyway then I have to pay the surcharge.
I don't need to win back anything Collins. I live the way I live everyday. Which may not be perfect. But, I'll warrant, is a helluva lot closer than you have ever come to it.

[Christian Liberty]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Bingo_card_-_02.jpg/458px-Bingo_card_-_02.jpg

Case in point: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453927-TN-Agriculture-Officials-Unveil-Industrial-Hemp-Webpage-Draft-Licensing-Regs

Exactly. Just a link. No other text. And I've never seen him post text before, ever. He picks now to do it. Its obvious that Collins is gloating. I can just imagine his cackling behind his computer screen. I hope this doesn't count as "advocating violence" but it makes you want to slap him across the face.

[Christian Liberty]

So you admit that we have no rights. Kokesh smoked and he got arrested. Tens of thousands do daily. They exercise their rights. Which is a helluva lot more than you will ever do. I don't pay taxes. Neither state nor federal. I do have to pay more than asking price from merchants that surcharge for the taxes they are responsible for collecting for the state or federal government. Since they are not allowed to operate without doing so and do not join me in in the big "fuck-you" and operate anyway then I have to pay the surcharge.
I don't need to win back anything Collins. I live the way I live everyday. Which may not be perfect. But, I'll warrant, is a helluva lot closer than you have ever come to it.

I respect you for doing that, but why would you want to advertise it on the internet?

[donnay]

So we can stop the sensationalism...


Wedler claims she and her group watched officers carrying brown bags “full of matter” into the basement before emerging with the illegal drugs. “Officers kept coming in and out of the basement. We literally watched some of them carrying brown ‘evidence bags’ with matter in them down into the basement.”

Phillips, who was not present during the raid, said the situation is “very odd.” He said, “The month previously Adam was arrested twice and got off because the state didn’t have a good enough case. The police hate him. This time, they knew they had to get him on something. So it is very likely that they actually planted mushrooms on him. When Adam made the D.C. video, he expected attention from police. We knew police were coming, so why would we leave drugs out? We had actually done a clean of the whole house because we expected police to show up.”

He also mentioned that “Adam has never even spoken about, nor does he like mushrooms.”
http://benswann.com/adam-kokesh-a-modern-day-political-prisoner/


WASHINGTON DC | ABC 7 WJLA is reporting that Adam Kokesh had pleaded guilty to carrying a shotgun, possession of an unregistered firearm, unlawful possession of ammunition, and marijuana possession at an unscheduled hearing this morning.
http://nextnewsnetwork.com/news/breaking-adam-kokesh-pleads-guilty/

[Anti Federalist]

I respect you for doing that, but why would you want to advertise it on the internet?

Phill knows.

Phill don't care.

[Matt Collins]

Rand Paul is only a borderline liberty candidate at best. You're free to believe whatever delusional thing you want, but you are factually inaccurate.

[Christian Liberty]

Phill knows.

Phill don't care.

Fair enough. Personally, I'd RATHER not go to jail. I know it will probably happen eventually when free speech gets made illegal, but I'd like to try to avoid it until then.


You're free to believe whatever delusional thing you want, but you are factually inaccurate.

Define "liberty candidate."

Heck, define "liberty" and explain how Rand Paul believes in it.

[phill4paul]

I respect you for doing that, but why would you want to advertise it on the internet?

Because... I don't care. I live my life the way I choose to live it. I have morals. My moral values will not allow me to support Leviathan financially if I can avoid it.

[Matt Collins]

I don't pay taxes. Neither state nor federal. You don't pay sales tax when you buy something? Of course you do. And not to mention you do pay the inflation tax (unless you operate 100% on bitcoin).





I do have to pay more than asking price from merchants that surcharge for the taxes they are responsible for collecting for the state or federal government. Since they are not allowed to operate without doing so and do not join me in in the big "fuck-you" and operate anyway then I have to pay the surcharge. I don't need to win back anything Collins.You just contradicted yourself. You have to pay taxes, but yet you say you are free.


Taxation is a direct result of politics. Gain political power, then maybe you can change your level of taxation, hopefully down to zero.

[Matt Collins]

Because... I don't care. I live my life the way I choose to live it. I have morals. My moral values will not allow me to support Leviathan financially if I can avoid it.
But you can't avoid it, that's the point.

The only way to stop it is to gain political power and minimize their effect.

[phill4paul]

Fair enough. Personally, I'd RATHER not go to jail. I know it will probably happen eventually when free speech gets made illegal, but I'd like to try to avoid it until then.


I will not go to jail. I will not be cuffed. I will not subjugate myself to an immoral Just Us system.

[Matt Collins]

Define "liberty candidate."

Heck, define "liberty" and explain how Rand Paul believes in it.
I don't speak for Rand at this time, but generally it is any candidate who advocates for liberty (less government).

[phill4paul]

But you can't avoid it, that's the point.

The only way to stop it is to gain political power and minimize their effect.

You keep tilting windmills. All was lost when the Constitution was written and there ain't no way in hell it will ever be brought back to a point before that politically.

[DamianTV]

Adam Kokesh Says Drugs Were Planted
http://dcist.com/2013/07/adam_kokesh_says_drugs_were_planted.php


...

U.S. Park Police served a warrant a few days later, and on the evening of July 9, Kokesh's home was searched. Police found a parcel of hallucinogenic mushrooms and also found a gun in the house. Kokesh was arrested by Herndon police and charged with possession of a schedule I or II substance, which in Virginia can carry a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and a fine of up to $2,500. Having a gun while in possession of those drugs can bring an additional two years behind bars. Kokesh has not been charged in connection with the video in the District of Columbia, where carrying a loaded firearm can bring a five years in prison and a $5,000 fine.

...

In the Fox 5 interview, Kokesh says the mushrooms were not his. When reporter John Henrahan asks where they came from, Kokesh nods to the evidence bags police brought in when they entered his house and claims the mushrooms were planted. After initially refusing to answer any questions in court, Kokesh was granted $5,000 bond earlier this week, but he remains in Fairfax County lockup while his supporters try to raise money for bail.

...

They want Kokesh gone.

[Matt Collins]

I will not go to jail. I will not be cuffed. I will not subjugate myself to an immoral Just Us system.Go smoke a joint in front of a LEO and then tell me how well that works out for you.

[Natural Citizen]

I don't speak for Rand at this time, but generally it is any candidate who advocates for liberty (less government).

Man, you sure do take an ass whippin' around here, huh.

[Matt Collins]

You keep tilting windmills. All was lost when the Constitution was written and there ain't no way in hell it will ever be brought back to a point before that politically.
I do tend to agree that reigning in the federal government is a lost cause, but the state governments are not. And relatively speaking, it is VERY easy to manipulate your state legislature. Not to mention that if you get good enough at it, you can get your state government to reject the feds.

[phill4paul]

You don't pay sales tax when you buy something? Of course you do. And not to mention you do pay the inflation tax (unless you operate 100% on bitcoin).

You just contradicted yourself. You have to pay taxes, but yet you say you are free.


Taxation is a direct result of politics. Gain political power, then maybe you can change your level of taxation, hopefully down to zero.

You have reading comprehension. Read my above posts again.

[phill4paul]

I do tend to agree that reigning in the federal government is a lost cause, but the state governments are not. And relatively speaking, it is VERY easy to manipulate your state legislature. Not to mention that if you get good enough at it, you can get your state government to reject the feds.

Name one successful 10th amendment legislative proposal that has passed the federal court process.

[phill4paul]

Go smoke a joint in front of a LEO and then tell me how well that works out for you.

You seem to mistake freedom for power. Which is why you fail in this capacity you have chosen for yourself. Freedom doesn't mean you will win in an occupied reality. Freedom is a state of mind.
If I and twenty others, armed, were to smoke a joint in front of an L.E.O. in a situation were in he had no back up then I guarantee there would be no problem. We are living in an occupied country. Occupied by powerful individuals that own powerful companies that own powerful politicians that own the occupying army.
I would have thought in all this time on these forums you would have at least got that.
I chose not to smoke a joint in front of an L.E.O. for the same reason I do not chose to just walk into the station and go postal. I chose to live. Unless otherwise pushed to extreme.
Want to smoke a joint in front of a cop? Then do so in numbers. It was happening in Colorado before legalization at the smoke outs.
THAT is my point. If we don't start standing together then we will hang separate.
And it has nothing to do politics.

[Anti Federalist]

I do tend to agree that reigning in the federal government is a lost cause, but the state governments are not. And relatively speaking, it is VERY easy to manipulate your state legislature. Not to mention that if you get good enough at it, you can get your state government to reject the feds.

Which, if taken to its logical conclusion, would mean secession and revolution.

It would also re-set the clock to zero.

Which you'll find no disagreement with me on.

In fact, I don't disagree with that post at all.

What I find repulsive is your gloating over the very real prospect of years in a rape cage, most likely on trumped up charges, for one of our own, just because you disagree with his methods.

[Anti Federalist]

You seem to mistake freedom for power. Which is why you fail in this capacity you have chosen for yourself. Freedom doesn't mean you will win in an occupied reality. Freedom is a state of mind.
If I and twenty others. Armed. Were to smoke a joint in front of an L.E.O. in a situation were in he had no back up then I guarantee there would be no problem. We are living in an occupied country. Occupied by powerful individuals that own powerful companies that own powerful politicians that own the occupying army.
I would have thought in all this time on these forums you would have at least got that.
I chose not to smoke a joint in front of an L.E.O. for the same reason I do not chose to just walk into the station and go postal. I chose to live. Unless otherwise pushed to extreme.

Want to smoke a joint in front of a cop? Then do so in numbers. It was happening in Colorado before legalization at the smoke outs.
THAT is my point. If we don't start standing together then we will hang separate.

And it has nothing to do politics.

http://forum.unity3d.com/attachments/29490-picard-applause-clapping-gif-s5nz-gif.84691/

[William Tell]

You keep tilting windmills. All was lost when the Constitution was written and there ain't no way in hell it will ever be brought back to a point before that politically.

Do you know of any real solution, besides or instead of politics? Good candidates help spread the message of liberty, I see that as a positive.

[phill4paul]

Do you know of any real solution, besides or instead of politics? Good candidates help spread the message of liberty, I see that as a positive.

The Bundy Ranch stand down is the best example of a real solution I have seen to date.

[cajuncocoa]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.
So when are you leaving?

[fisharmor]

That effectively meant ending campaigning. Can you not read between the lines? :rolleyes:

I can tell the difference between not wasting campaign money on primaries, and officially dropping out of the race.
I can also tell backpedalling when I see it.

[fisharmor]

Then liberty is obviously not important to you if you are willing to give up just because you don't like someone.

Unless, of course, that someone is Adam Kokesh.
http://www.blog.equals6.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/mind-blown.gif

[cajuncocoa]

This thread makes me sad for several reasons, the main one being that I agree with Collins more than everyone else.

Regardless of what you think of the intent behind creation of the thread, it's a news story about a person who has been tied to libertarian causes in the past, and probably would have been posted anyway.

I fail to see the fallacy in stating that it's politically prudent to distance yourself from people who are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as loose cannons or bad apples, or from causes that can easily be used to mischaracterize your position. Lest we forget the lessons of Debra Medina et al.

Support Adam Kokesh privately if you wish, but do everyone a favor and don't associate him with libertarian principles - else libertarian principles become harder to sell to the electorate. Again, rightly or wrongly.

LOL...no, let's keep associating Glenn Beck with libertarian principles instead. Who cares if it's not true, so long as it dupes Boobus, right?

[William Tell]

The Bundy Ranch stand down is the best example of a real solution I have seen to date.

In that case, we are doomed. People came from all over the country to help him, which is great. But how many of our neighbors would actually take that stand for us?

[Anti Federalist]

By riff-raff, you mean hobbits?

Maybe this guy:

http://whiteraverrafting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/riff-raff1.jpg

Or maybe this guy:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130506000530/rockyhorror/images/5/54/Riff_Raff.jpg

[Vanguard101]

Kokesh is an idiot. Respect the dude but he's an idiot.

[Anti Federalist]

In that case, we are doomed. People came from all over the country to help him, which is great. But how many of our neighbors would actually take that stand for us?

Possibly.

But maybe if we can convince them that their future does not lie with electing some new politician or judge or sheriff, but instead lies with taking a stand with family and neighbors and facing the beast down, eye to eye.

[Matt Collins]

Which, if taken to its logical conclusion, would mean secession and revolution.

It would also re-set the clock to zero.

Which you'll find no disagreement with me on.

In fact, I don't disagree with that post at all.

We are not anywhere near secession and revolution. We can turn this around through the political system without violence. Although the founders did do such for much less offenses.



What I find repulsive is your gloating over the very real prospect of years in a rape cage, most likely on trumped up charges, for one of our own, just because you disagree with his methods.I am not gloating at all.

[Matt Collins]

Name one successful 10th amendment legislative proposal that has passed the federal court process.Who cares what the federal courts say about it. The states are supreme over the federal government, except on the 21 powers they delegated away to the federal government.

[phill4paul]

In that case, we are doomed. People came from all over the country to help him, which is great. But how many of our neighbors would actually take that stand for us?

It's gotta start bottom up. Start with family. Then friends. Neighbors. It may well be that we are doomed. But politicians are not the ones that will lead us from the brink. On that I would bet my life.

[Matt Collins]

You seem to mistake freedom for power. Which is why you fail in this capacity you have chosen for yourself. Freedom doesn't mean you will win in an occupied reality. Freedom is a state of mind.
If I and twenty others, armed, were to smoke a joint in front of an L.E.O. in a situation were in he had no back up then I guarantee there would be no problem. We are living in an occupied country. Occupied by powerful individuals that own powerful companies that own powerful politicians that own the occupying army.Uh no, not all the politicians are "owned". Most of them can be manipulated on most issues. If you can threaten their reelection, then you can control them.




And it has nothing to do politics. Politics is how society divides up power, power which decides what laws exists and how they are enforced. Politics is inescapable. Politics is human nature. Failure to see that is blindness.

[William Tell]

It's gotta start bottom up. Start with family. Then friends. Neighbors. It may well be that we are doomed. But politicians are not the ones that will lead us from the brink. On that I would bet my life.

Maybe you are right, maybe Ron Paul should never have run for office. He should have gone to barbecues instead.;)

[phill4paul]

Who cares what the federal courts say about it. The states are supreme over the federal government, except on the 21 powers they delegated away to the federal government.

You do not live in this reality. You live in a world of written words that have no force of measure since 1865.

[Matt Collins]

It's gotta start bottom up. Start with family. Then friends. Neighbors.No, that's not how it works.

You get a list of people who care about your issue. You get them to pressure the politicians. Then you mobilize that list to persuade likely voters to vote against that politician.

That is how you win.

[cajuncocoa]

In order for politics to do any good, you have to start with an informed electorate.

Politics may be inevitable, but that doesn't mean anything good can be achieved that way under the current circumstances.

When you have to pretend that Adam Kokesh doesn't represent libertarian values, but Glenn Beck does, you're going to get more of the same problems that haunt us right now.

[Vanguard101]

Maybe you are right, maybe Ron Paul should never have run for office. He should have gone to barbecues instead.;)

But none of us would be friends if this happened :(

I would probably be a Kucinicher or like Huntsman


In order for politics to do any good, you have to start with an informed electorate.

Politics may be inevitable, but that doesn't mean anything good can be achieved that way under the current circumstances.

When you have to pretend that Adam Kokesh doesn't represent libertarian values, but Glenn Beck does, you're going to get more of the same problems that haunt us right now.
Adam Kokesh doesn't even come off as a libertarian. He comes off more as a hater than anything. That's not a good sign. He probably doesn't understand the message and is more anarchist due to the sins of the state than actually philosophically rejecting the state.

He just comes off as some1 who hit his head after war. That's not a good sign

[Matt Collins]

You do not live in this reality. You live in a world of written words that have no force of measure since 1865.
I completely understand and agree with this. I get it.

But the state governments can change this, and they are on their way to changing it in a few instances. But it is going to take liberty people working to push their state legislatures into submission which is quite possible. I know because I've seen it done, and I've done it myself.

[Matt Collins]

In order for politics to do any good, you have to start with an informed electorate.No, not true. Most contested elections are won with under 10% of the population. You just need to sway tiny fractions of the likely voters to vote for/against a candidate, and in a lot of cases that is enough to win.

[William Tell]

In order for politics to do any good, you have to start with an informed electorate.

Yes, and that's why I am thankful for true local liberty candidates, who knock on thousands of their neighbors doors, spreading the message of liberty.:D

[William Tell]

But none of us would be friends if this happened :(

That is EXACTLY my point! Thanks for running, Ron!:)

[cajuncocoa]

No, not true. Most contested elections are won with under 10% of the population. You just need to sway tiny fractions of the likely voters to vote for/against a candidate, and in a lot of cases that is enough to win.
If what I said isn't true, why do you keep making statements like "must keep riffraff away"? Why the fear of Adam Kokesh? Conspiracy theories?

[cajuncocoa]

Adam Kokesh doesn't even come off as a libertarian. He comes off more as a hater than anything. That's not a good sign. He probably doesn't understand the message and is more anarchist due to the sins of the state than actually philosophically rejecting the state.

He just comes off as some1 who hit his head after war. That's not a good sign
I disagree. Adam comes off exactly as I would expect a libertarian to act.

He's more libertarian than those who wear the label around here, in my opinion.

I'll agree...he's not safe to bring home to Boobus (Boobus gets scared easily) but being libertarian isn't about being "safe".

[fr33]

This thread makes me sad for several reasons, the main one being that I agree with Collins more than everyone else.

Regardless of what you think of the intent behind creation of the thread, it's a news story about a person who has been tied to libertarian causes in the past, and probably would have been posted anyway.

I fail to see the fallacy in stating that it's politically prudent to distance yourself from people who are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as loose cannons or bad apples, or from causes that can easily be used to mischaracterize your position. Lest we forget the lessons of Debra Medina et al.

Support Adam Kokesh privately if you wish, but do everyone a favor and don't associate him with libertarian principles - else libertarian principles become harder to sell to the electorate. Again, rightly or wrongly.

If we're going to distance ourselves from people because they use drugs or own weapons, there won't be anyone left. Almost everybody uses drugs... Like well over 90% of us, whether FDA approved or not. Holding a shotgun on the street is a basic right.

This topic turned into diss or defend Kokesh for things completely unrelated to the OP. It should have been a discussion about the injustice Kokesh is suffering.

[jclay2]

You must spread some Reputation around before DEDUCTING it from Matt Collins.

My current dilemma.

[Anti Federalist]

We are not anywhere near secession and revolution. We can turn this around through the political system without violence. Although the founders did do such for much less offenses.

What do you think will happen if a state "rejects the feds"?


I am not gloating at all.

I do not believe you.

[Vanguard101]

Yes, and that's why I am thankful for true local liberty candidates, who knock on thousands of their neighbors doors, spreading the message of liberty.:D
Stickland :D

[Spikender]

The war against ourselves rumbles on without a hitch.

A man is laughing in a corner somewhere with a stogie between his lips.

[heavenlyboy34]

Well-deserved and well-done smackdown on teh Collinz inhere. :cool: I applaud you all. ~hugs~ :D

[Schifference]

It seems to me that if Kokesh had looming drug with gun charges hanging over his head it would have been prudent to lay low until they were resolved. I don't think he did himself any favors advocating for the husband/wife duo random cop killers.

[Natural Citizen]

Well-deserved and well-done smackdown on teh Collinz inhere. :cool: I applaud you all. ~hugs~ :D

He's actually correct about a lot of things if we're just speaking in terms of general politics.

[Spikender]

It seems to me that if Kokesh had looming drug with gun charges hanging over his head it would have been prudent to lay low until they were resolved. I don't think he did himself any favors advocating for the husband/wife duo random cop killers.

That never happened.

[Schifference]

Maybe not but it was inferred that if cops are doing bad things just because you shoot them at lunch doesn't mean that they did not deserve it. Also inferred that lives were or could have been saved by the cops being dead.

[William Tell]

Stickland :D

Eby:cool: Fabby:cool:

[Occam's Banana]

At no other time in your posting history, Matt, would you have been likely to post even a snip of the article in question.

Except in this case, in order to gloat over Kokesh possibly going to prison.

Enjoy your schadenfreude Matt, while you can.

You just don't understand, AF.

You see, in politics, perception is reality ... or reality becomes the perception of politics ... or perception of reality has to come through the political process ... or something like that. And defeatism, too! I know something about defeatism should be in there somewhere. It's all very complicated ... or, no, wait! ... maybe it's all very simple? ... I don't really remember. Anyway, Matt can probably explain it to you better than I can ...


We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

There! You see now? "Matt Collins, Sergeant at Arms for the Liberty Movement, reporting for duty!"

I know I will sleep ever so much better knowing that Matt is policing "riff-raff" like Kokesh out of the Liberty Movement.
(I do worry that somebody should tell the Liberty Movement, though - some of them don't seem to have noticed ...)

[Matt Collins]

If what I said isn't true, why do you keep making statements like "must keep riffraff away"? Why the fear of Adam Kokesh? Conspiracy theories?

I disagree. Adam comes off exactly as I would expect a libertarian to act.

He's more libertarian than those who wear the label around here, in my opinion.

I'll agree...he's not safe to bring home to Boobus (Boobus gets scared easily) but being libertarian isn't about being "safe".

You don't win votes by scaring voters away from you or making them think you are crazy.

[Matt Collins]

What do you think will happen if a state "rejects the feds"?Who knows....hopefully the feds will peacefully just let it go (like they are with marijuana in some places). Maybe the feds will be too broke to be able to do anything about it? Maybe the political will to combat the states will not exist. Not sure. but that is our only course of action is through the state legislatures.

[Carlybee]

Sorry to hear about Adam.

[cajuncocoa]

You don't win votes by scaring voters away from you or making them think you are crazy.
But you just said you don't even need those people! Just worry about the 10% and let the rest of us do what we want to do.

Got it?

[Bastiat's The Law]

Kokesh always seemed douchey to me. Hard to have sympathy for him.

[Spikender]

Maybe not but it was inferred that if cops are doing bad things just because you shoot them at lunch doesn't mean that they did not deserve it. Also inferred that lives were or could have been saved by the cops being dead.

If you watch the whole video, Adam did not excuse what they did and reiterated several times that this sort of violence doesn't work. His entire point was that they were politicizing the event when they really should be examining what caused these two people to resort to such extreme measures. It's true that he said near the end of the video that it wasn't necessarily "unjustified", but he also pointed out that what they did was dumb and he'd rather they be here with him so that he could bring them over to the non-violent side of things.

Adam was point, anyone who says otherwise did not watch the entire video.


Kokesh always seemed douchey to me. Hard to have sympathy for him.

Yeah, because I find someone douchey, he deserves to spend fifteen years alongside violent criminals and be deprived of life and liberty.

A man who preaches non-violence and has fought for liberty more than either you or I have... he definitely deserves to rot in a cell.

[Occam's Banana]

2- This wasn't "misfortune" as if he got hit by a tornado or something. This was the direct consequence of his own ill-conceived actions

What actions? Using drugs? I agree that that's foolhardy but it doesn't deserve any action from the State. Owning a gun? 2nd amendment hello!

Hey, if you don't want your dog shot, don't own a dog.
Your own ill-conceived actions are ultimately responsible for your dead dog, you know.

:rolleyes: Matt IOW: "Adam Kokesh did this to himself."

[Spikender]

Matt Collins's Alt Account: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?2658-FrankRep

[UWDude]

Who knows....hopefully the feds will peacefully just let it go (like they are with marijuana in some places). Maybe the feds will be too broke to be able to do anything about it? Maybe the political will to combat the states will not exist. Not sure. but that is our only course of action is through the state legislatures.

Just as much a fart in the wind as Adam's civil disobedience and youtube channel.

There is no hope.

None.

The only thing that will change America's course is complete, and utter catastrophe. Probably utter defeat and destruction in WW III.

[Right Wing]

Ron was no longer in the race at that point, he couldn't win, and wasn't running. Remember, he dropped out just before Rand made the endorsement.

You must have forgotten about the delegate strategy. With this, there was still a possibility for Ron. At the time of Rand's endorsement, we didn't know the RNC would end up not seating delegates and changing the rules at the last second with a sham vote. So, when Rand endorsed Romney, Ron technically still had a chance.

[Natural Citizen]

Matt Collins's Alt Account: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?2658-FrankRep

Jump back....no fuggin way. Really? I wondered what happened to FrankRep. How do you know this?

[Spikender]

Jump back....no fuggin way. Really? I wondered what happened to FrankRep. How do you know this?

I was joking.

But I wasn't joking when it comes to Matt and Frank using the exact same logic to justify these sort of things happening.


2- This wasn't "misfortune" as if he got hit by a tornado or something. This was the direct consequence of his own ill-conceived actions.


Adam has zero sympathy here, he completely brought all of it on himself, unnecessarily so.


The video is 30 mins long, give me some time.

Kelly Thomas continues to act like an idiot.

Kelly Thomas doesn't know his name, claims to not know English while speaking English, now doesn't know how to get on his knees or on to the ground.

Holy Shit people, The cops were wrong.

Kelly Thomas is still an idiot.


Kelly Thomas is being held down and told to stop resisting.

What does Kelly Thomas do?

Resist and Fight.

What does Kelly Thomas do after being tasered?

Resist and Fight.

Kelly Thomas did this to himself.

Birds of a feather.

[Natural Citizen]

I was joking.

But I wasn't joking when it comes to Matt and Frank using the exact same logic to justify these sort of things happening.

Birds of a feather.

Oh. Heh. :)

[Spikender]

Oh. Heh. :)

In regards to the rep you gave me, Frank wasn't that bad before that topic. I never detected this sort of hate or vitriol from him beforehand. In fact, many people in that topic were caught off guard with his flagrant defense of the officer who essentially murdered Kelly Thomas, myself included.

Regardless, the logic is the same and that's what disgusts me here. The fact that people honestly think it's okay that Adam is going to be hauled off to prison for defending liberty is what blows my mind. If you think he "acted douchey" that's one thing, but the guy stuck to his guns and stayed non-violent and practiced what he preached.

He has my respect.

[Natural Citizen]

In regards to the rep you gave me, Frank wasn't that bad before that topic. I never detected this sort of hate or vitriol from him beforehand. In fact, many people in that topic were caught off guard with his flagrant defense of the officer who essentially murdered Kelly Thomas, myself included.

Regardless, the logic is the same and that's what disgusts me here. The fact that people honestly think it's okay that Adam is going to be hauled off to prison for defending liberty is what blows my mind. If you think he "acted douchey" that's one thing, but the guy stuck to his guns and stayed non-violent and practiced what he preached.

He has my respect.

No, I didn't really have a bad impression of Frank either. I could debate Frank without being at the receiving end of vitriol like you get with some folks. I don't recall participating in that thread you reference and I do try to stay out of those threads because they generate so much bad energy. There is just sooooo much violence and destruction of life that I read here. It's every day.

As far as Kokesh, it's not him, per se, that gives me pause. He was a peaceful protestor. But we have a lot of people out there that are followers in a general sense of the word. People who have no real vision of scope to the cause nor the desire or intention to learn or to learn to lead in a manner that may stimulate change in a practical way. These are often products of the cheap sort of meme activism that has become so rampant as well. This brand of activism isn't designed to educate in any way. It's introduced to solicit people to mimmick in a fragmented way. This is dangerous in a variety of ways.

From a contemporary political perspective, I understand where Matt is coming from. When I say contemporary political perspective, I mean trying to just hurry up and get elected (which, interestingly, has become a meme based sort of activism itself) as opposed to the statesman's model of changing the course of history. These are very different and often opposing phenomenon and I'm not confident that actual change is too high up on the list for some trustees in the hurry up and just get elected model. This is where I'd tend to disagree with Matt's "advice" the most. Hopefully that makes sense.

[Spikender]

No, I didn't really have a bad impression of Frank either. I could debate Frank without being at the receiving end of vitriol like you get with some folks. I don't recall participating in that thread you reference and I do try to stay out of those threads because they generate so much bad energy. There is just sooooo much violence and destruction of life that I read here. It's every day.

Frank left because of that topic about Kelly Thomas, so that's why he hasn't been around at all.

To be fair I never really debated Frank before that topic, that was really my first time, so it skewed my impression of him. Looking back at his post history, though, he didn't seem so bad. I'm not sure what happened with him in that topic and why he behaved that way.

Can't argue with you on the point about bad energy. I should start coming to RPF with a pack of cigs ready just to cool off after reading through some of these topics.

[Occam's Banana]

I fail to see the fallacy in stating that it's politically prudent to distance yourself from people who are viewed (rightly or wrongly) as loose cannons or bad apples, or from causes that can easily be used to mischaracterize your position.

If we were to adopt and follow the "politically prudent" advice being offered here, then the political establishment and associated media will have been given the perfect formula for effectively neutralizing any of their significantly "radical" critics. All they'd have to do is successfully portray so-and-so as a "loose cannon" or a "bad apple" - or use some cause to mischaracterize some position. Of course, they already try to do that anyway - but it would be absolutely insane for us to actually go along with it. If your position is being mischaracterized, the correct response is to deny, refute and correct the mischaracterization - it is NOT to cater to the mischaracterizers by "distancing" oneself from the postion they have mischaracterized ...

The concepts of "rightly" and "wrongly" are also being lumped together here as if the distinction between them makes no difference. But it makes all the difference in the world. If you "distance" yourself from some person or cause you agree with merely because that person or cause has been (or is being) wrongly viewed or portrayed by others, then you are being an intellectual and moral coward. You may imagine that you are being "practical" or "politically prudent," but you are not. You are simply rewarding, encouraging and empowering those who wrongly view or portray the persons and causes you agree with.

Of course, it may be that you think some person or position associated with your cause is rightly being portrayed as a "bad apple" or some other sort of liability. But if that is the case, your two-fold task should be to (1) explain the deviance or incorrectness of the liability to "outsiders" and provide them with what you believe to be the proper understanding, and (2) persuade "insiders" who disagree with your assessment that yours is the correct position. When you fail at either of these things (as you inevitably will), just move along and continue to offer correction when and as appropriate. Do not wag your finger at others and admonish them to shut up, decamp and/or GTFO. Do not indulge the arrogant presumption that you are some kind of "railroad dick" on the Liberty Train, whose job is to shoo off the "hobos" and keep out the "riff-raff" (as if such things were even possible to begin with).


Support Adam Kokesh privately if you wish, but do everyone a favor and don't associate him with libertarian principles - else libertarian principles become harder to sell to the electorate.

If I wish? I do support Adam Kokesh, and I do so publicly - and I will continue doing so, thank you very much!

Like it or not, Adam Kokesh vocally and vehemently associates himself with "libertarian principles" - and neither you nor I nor Matt Collins nor anyone else can prevent this association from being made. So for better or worse, we're all just gonna have to deal with it ...

But even setting all that aside, I don't understand what you are getting at when you admonish us to support Adam only "privately." What is that supposed to mean? It clearly can't mean "associating him with libertarian principles," since you explicitly tell us we shouldn't do that. May we "privately" support him by telling only family and close friends about him and encouraging them to read, watch or listen to him? No - that would directly result in him being "associated with libertarian principles" (which we shouldn't do). May we "privately" support him by donating money to his efforts, then? Wouldn't that just enable him to continue "associating him(self) with libertarian principles?" But if none of these ... what, then? How can we possibly support Adam ("privately" or otherwise) in such a way that does not result in him being "associated with libertarian principles?" AFAICT, it can't be done ...


Again, rightly or wrongly.

Again, where is the sense (moral, practical or other) in urging people to do something "rightly or wrongly?"
Why should we expect that others will want to do things that they have judged to be "wrongly" based?

P.S.: I would also like to add that without "loose cannons" to "push the envelope," the Liberty Movement is just going to end up running around in tight little circles within the snug confines of conventionally acceptable opinion. As awkward and inconvenient as it may sometimes be, the "envelope pushers" serve a critical need. (Pioneers come before the settlers, not after them, and are not noted for their domesticated habits ...)

P.P.S.: People you disagree with - even the "bad apples" on your own side (hell, especially the "bad apples" on your own side) - are often excellent whetstones against which you can and should hone your "internal" understanding of things (as well as your "external" presentations of that understanding).

[Czolgosz]

Somehow, this seemed fitting.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/10342899_732728950104126_3518761945007946176_n.png

Zing.

[Czolgosz]

I don't agree with Adam on every thing and he has certainly made multiple tactical blunders. But screw what your average non informed person has to say about him...at least he has a mind and a pair of balls. That's more than I can say about 95% of the people I meet these days. Although my situation is different, I know how it feels to be betrayed and jailed for a victimless crime...I'm going in for a year the 13th of august and I promise it will only make my convictions stronger. Bless Adam and all the men who aren't afraid to be men.

Qft.

[Czolgosz]

Fuck you matt collins.

To.
The.
Fucking.
Point.

[Occam's Banana]

Adam Kokesh doesn't even come off as a libertarian. He comes off more as a hater than anything. That's not a good sign. He probably doesn't understand the message and is more anarchist due to the sins of the state than actually philosophically rejecting the state.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with, approve of or even "like" Adam Kokesh, anyone who thinks that he is a "hater" who "probably doesn't understand the message" of libertarianism (or that his anarchism is not grounded in "philosophically rejecting the state") has more than amply demonstrated a total and utter ignorance of Kokesh, what he believes, and why he believes it.


He just comes off as some1 who hit his head after war. That's not a good sign

And you come off as someone who has no idea what he's talking about. "That's not a good sign."

But then, haters gonna hate, I guess ...

Anyone who has an interest in actually understanding what Adam Kokesh thinks & believes (as opposed to merely spouting uninformed nonsense about him, like the above) should read his new book: [click the image below for a PDF or see here: http://www.adamvstheman.com/freedom/]

http://www.adamvstheman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/FREEDOM-cover-231x300.jpg (http://www.adamvstheman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/FREEDOM-ebook.pdf)

[Suzanimal]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

:(
Well, I guess I'm out too.

[klamath]

Frank left because of that topic about Kelly Thomas, so that's why he hasn't been around at all.

To be fair I never really debated Frank before that topic, that was really my first time, so it skewed my impression of him. Looking back at his post history, though, he didn't seem so bad. I'm not sure what happened with him in that topic and why he behaved that way.

Can't argue with you on the point about bad energy. I should start coming to RPF with a pack of cigs ready just to cool off after reading through some of these topics.I think Frank lost it when he read posters saying the family and children of cops should be raped and killed. Not just those cops but all cops.
I am sure that is ok around here though.

[Spikender]

I think Frank lost it when he read posters saying the family and children of cops should be raped and killed. Not just those cops but all cops.
I am sure that is ok around here though.

Source?

Not that that would excuse Frank saying that Kelly Thomas deserved to die for not maintaining the correct posture, but now you've got me curious.

[moostraks]

:(
Well, I guess I'm out too.

I think most of us would be if you put our lives under a microscope. It is those who put themselves out such as Kokesh has done that draw the scrutiny because they confront the enemy. Rather than address legitimate points brought up by Kokesh, tptb just changed the story line. Some here seem rather inclined to chase their own tail rather than focus in on the reason why they are being led to disassociate with each liberty advocate that becomes a loud voice against the establishment. I mean, why stop with Kokesh? Shall we hash out dropping Dr. Paul because of those newsletters?

[moostraks]

You seem to think you are something else-- don't flatter yourself. You think YOU make the movement look better by gloating about the misfortune of others? You remind me of those self-righteous neocons who pound their puffed out chest shouting, "LAW and ORDER!" Until they get caught breaking the very unconstitutional law they were all for.

Disgusting, really. With people such as yourself in this movement, I am becoming a political atheist more and more.


...There is nothing wrong with power, just like there is nothing wrong with money. People rationally should seek to acquire both.


No it's not... it's the result of someone who doesn't want to take the time and make the sacrifice and do the work necessary to win back our rights.

It ain't about being lazy. It is about not wanting to associate with and give energy to people who are of a mindset that they are somehow entitled to power for the effort they are putting in and fancy themselves finer specimens than their fellow man so they gloat when another liberty lover is brought down. You would be the very least likely person I would want in a position of power because of your condescending, arrogant demeanor as it is easily corrupted into thinking it should manage others it views as less desirable.

[Cap]

http://blog.nj.com/southjerseylife/2009/05/large_PortraitDelaroche.jpg

Quick question concerning trivia, does anyone know why Napolean held his hand inside shirt?










Answer: to hide his pinky ring. ;)

[angelatc]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

And yet here you are.

[angelatc]

..... your condescending, arrogant demeanor as it is easily corrupted into thinking it should manage others it views as less desirable.

He is already there. The second post in - he's anointed himself gatekeeper. Nothing we say will change his mind - he already knows that he is superior to all of us.

[Barrex]

Unless, of course, that someone is Adam Kokesh.
http://www.blog.equals6.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/mind-blown.gif
What is this picture about? Where is it from? I am seeing it frequently on this forum.

[klamath]

Source?

Not that that would excuse Frank saying that Kelly Thomas deserved to die for not maintaining the correct posture, but now you've got me curious.It was in the Kelly Thomas thread. Some of them got deleted.

[Spikender]

It was in the Kelly Thomas thread. Some of them got deleted.

Actually, none of the posts you're talking about were deleted. There were multiple topics about Kelly Thomas. I think the ones you're talking about are in this topic:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?441365-Police-officers-not-guilty-in-Kelly-Thomas-beating-death

That topic was nothing but fighting amongst members and people venting about the verdict. I don't take things like that seriously on the Internet, especially since I think most people were just venting. Neither should you. I've seen far worse than people wishing that cops' families were murdered by other cops so they learn a lesson. It was just venting. PaulConventionWV even pointed that out in that very topic. I didn't even see FrankRep post in that topic, so I doubt that's what caused him to leave. I'm pretty sure the "Him making uninformed and ignorant comments about the video where Kelly Thomas was beaten to death and then being called out for it by every other member" was the real reason he left.

[nayjevin]

Wrong, when someone actively damages the movement and hurts our chances at winning because they give ammo to the opposition to use against us, they need to be distanced.

By whom? A candidate, or a fellow in the liberty movement? Each may have a different answer. Live and let live, Matt!


Guilt by association is a very viable tactic in politics which is why one must be careful about ones associations.

This lesson is important, and efforts to teach it are a positive step. But people make their own choices - it is a totally different thing to say we need to police the movement and kick people out of it. No one speaks for the liberty movement - and anyone who tries is likely an aspiring authoritarian.

I am not a fan of possessing drugs. I am also not a fan of prosecuting for possession based on what is found in a house occupied by multiple people. I also believe that police raids need greater accountability as to chain of custody. Political persecution does occur - and planting evidence does occur. I see it as slightly more likely than the average case that foulplay has occurred here - I would just hope that reasonable doubt is consistently applied in all cases.

[Matt Collins]

Jump back....no fuggin way. Really? I wondered what happened to FrankRep. How do you know this?
No, that is not me.

[Matt Collins]

Like it or not, Adam Kokesh vocally and vehemently associates himself with "libertarian principles" - and neither you nor I nor Matt Collins nor anyone else can prevent this association from being made. So for better or worse, we're all just gonna have to deal with it ...And the way we "deal with it" is by distancing and ostracizing those who make us look bad.

[LibertyEagle]

Disgusting, really. With people such as yourself in this movement, I am becoming a political atheist more and more.

Oh, come on. You threw in the towel a LONG time ago.

Collins isn't who arrested Kokesh. Stop taking it all out on him. Sheesh.

[tod evans]

And the way we "deal with it" is by distancing and ostracizing those who make us look bad.


"We" and "Us"..........

Not I!

Try speaking as just you Matt, there's not many who agree with you in the first place and the inclusive verbiage just makes you look conceited...

[klamath]

Actually, none of the posts you're talking about were deleted. There were multiple topics about Kelly Thomas. I think the ones you're talking about are in this topic:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?441365-Police-officers-not-guilty-in-Kelly-Thomas-beating-death

That topic was nothing but fighting amongst members and people venting about the verdict. I don't take things like that seriously on the Internet, especially since I think most people were just venting. Neither should you. I've seen far worse than people wishing that cops' families were murdered by other cops so they learn a lesson. It was just venting. PaulConventionWV even pointed that out in that very topic. I didn't even see FrankRep post in that topic, so I doubt that's what caused him to leave. I'm pretty sure the "Him making uninformed and ignorant comments about the video where Kelly Thomas was beaten to death and then being called out for it by every other member" was the real reason he left.venting eh:rolleyes: Well maybe I should post all those vents in my sign line. I guess it is ok for child rapists to vent but not Frank rep to vent:rolleyes: I totally disagree with what frank said however I also totally disagree with those "venting". As has been pointed out he didn't have a history of that kind of disgusting statements, those other venter's absolutely do. So which one is more likely venting and which one is telling it like they really feel.

[LibertyEagle]

And the way we "deal with it" is by distancing and ostracizing those who make us look bad.

Who is "us"? While successful political campaigns must do the above, because I agree with you that perception is reality in politics, no one has the right to dictate who is and who isn't welcome in the larger liberty movement.

[chudrockz]

And the way we "deal with it" is by distancing and ostracizing those who make us look bad.

To 90% of the people on this rock we inhabit (or at least the portion of them paying attention at all), Ron Paul looks bad. Like scary bad. Doesn't mean shit to me, as he is right and they are morons. But should we try to get THAT man to keep quiet, tone it down a little?

[pcosmar]

And the way we "deal with it" is by distancing and ostracizing those who make us look bad.

ostracize thyself.

[Spikender]

venting eh:rolleyes: Well maybe I should post all those vents in my sign line. I guess it is ok for child rapists to vent but not Frank rep to vent:rolleyes: I totally disagree with what frank said however I also totally disagree with those "venting". As has been pointed out he didn't have a history of that kind of disgusting statements, those other venter's absolutely do. So which one is more likely venting and which one is telling it like they really feel.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?441470-The-Verdict-Murder-as-an-Official-Entitlement

FrankRep was actually arguing that the cops were completely justified and said that Kelly Thomas brought it on himself.

Everyone else was clearly venting and anyone can clearly see that.

Take your hogwash elsewhere.

[Christian Liberty]

He is already there. The second post in - he's anointed himself gatekeeper. Nothing we say will change his mind - he already knows that he is superior to all of us.
I reported him. He and Compromise should be banned. They're trying to make our movement whore with neocons and it shouldn't be tolerated.


Oh, come on. You threw in the towel a LONG time ago.

Collins isn't who arrested Kokesh. Stop taking it all out on him. Sheesh.

You don't think he was gloating? I do.

venting eh:rolleyes: Well maybe I should post all those vents in my sign line. I guess it is ok for child rapists to vent but not Frank rep to vent:rolleyes: I totally disagree with what frank said however I also totally disagree with those "venting". As has been pointed out he didn't have a history of that kind of disgusting statements, those other venter's absolutely do. So which one is more likely venting and which one is telling it like they really feel.

FrankRep is repulsive. The cops that murdered Kelly Thomas absolutely deserve to die. And anyone who would defend them is someone I want nothing to do with. There are some things that just don't need "a history." And I don't think there's any anti-police statement with regards to those particular cops that would be disgusting. I don't think there's anything you could advocate doing to them that would be half as disgusting as what Frank was justifying.

[Christian Liberty]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?441470-The-Verdict-Murder-as-an-Official-Entitlement

FrankRep was actually arguing that the cops were completely justified and said that Kelly Thomas brought it on himself.

Everyone else was clearly venting and anyone can clearly see that.

Take your hogwash elsewhere.

Frank is evil.

And, with the "relative evil" question that tod evans asked me awhile back in mind... I think Frank and those who agree with him on this are more evil than cops who realize that beating people to death is wrong.

[klamath]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?441470-The-Verdict-Murder-as-an-Official-Entitlement

FrankRep was actually arguing that the cops were completely justified and said that Kelly Thomas brought it on himself.

Everyone else was clearly venting and anyone can clearly see that.

Take your hogwash elsewhere.AH so when these people get the violent revolution they so desperately want I wonder what their venting will be like? Wait until that person is someone that they know and love, that fights along with them, has saved their lives in battle, that gets killed by the opposition? They do this when they vent.
The Haditha incident (also called the Haditha killings or the Haditha massacre) refers to the incident in which 24 unarmed Iraqi men, women and children, all civilians,[1][2] were killed by a group of United States Marines on November 19, 2005 in Haditha, a city in the western Iraqi province of Al Anbar. The dead included several children and elderly people, who were shot multiple times at close range while unarmed. It has been alleged that the killings were retribution for the attack on a convoy of Marines with an improvised explosive device that killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas. Many news reports have compared the incident to the My Lai massacre




The Mỹ Lai Massacre (Vietnamese: was the Vietnam War mass murder of between 347 and 504 unarmed civilians in South Vietnam on March 16, 1968. It was committed by U.S. Army soldiers from the Company C of the 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade of the 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division. Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated

So don't give me this fucking shit it is just venting. The twisted Brain wants to go beyond killing the guilty. Add months and years of combat stress and that mind that thinks along those lines WILL do a My Lai.

[Christian Liberty]

AH so when these people get the violent revolution they so desperately want I wonder what their venting will be like? Wait until that person is someone that they know and love, that fights along with them, has saved their lives in battle, that gets killed by the opposition? They do this when they vent.



So don't give me this fucking shit it is just venting. The twisted Brain wants to go beyond killing the guilty. Add months and years of combat stress and that mind that thinks along those lines WILL do a My Lai.


Nobody is advocating the killing of the guilty, just saying that if it happens it will be completely justified and that we won't consider those who kill them to be morally responsible (note that I'm talking about those specific cops, not all cops.)

Nobody is even hinting at going beyond killing the guilty.

I'd like to avoid war if at all possible. War is hell.

[klamath]

Nobody is advocating the killing of the guilty, just saying that if it happens it will be completely justified and that we won't consider those who kill them to be morally responsible (note that I'm talking about those specific cops, not all cops.)

Nobody is even hinting at going beyond killing the guilty.

I'd like to avoid war if at all possible. War is hell.:rolleyes:

[Occam's Banana]

Join us now for another installment of "As the Gerbil Wheel Turns." In today's episode ...


Like it or not, Adam Kokesh vocally and vehemently associates himself with "libertarian principles" - and neither you nor I nor Matt Collins nor anyone else can prevent this association from being made. So for better or worse, we're all just gonna have to deal with it ...

And the way we "deal with it" is by distancing and ostracizing those who make us look bad.

:confused: ... "we" ... ? "us" ... ? *snort* yeah, right ... :rolleyes:

So how's your eviction effort coming along there, boss?
Has Kokesh vacated the premises and turned in his keys yet?
No? Oh ... well, be sure to let "us" know when you get that done, Sarge!

ETA: Say, maybe your "distancing and ostracizing" juju would work better if you used voodoo dolls ... it's just an idea ... but it certainly can't work any more poorly than what you have been doing so far in this regard ...

[Christian Liberty]

:rolleyes:

What?

[klamath]

What? How about for starters, for 50 years I have heard that fucking line "War is hell" every time someone wanted to justify a "venting" action by a side you identify with. Last time I heard it was on these forums when the communist Serbian/Canadian poster used it to justify the women and children getting killed in Bosnia by his unit.

[JK/SEA]

from Adam's facebook page...

''Libertarianism says that violence is the last resort. Statism says it's the first.''

ya see?...its crazy bastards like Adam that make Matt look bad.....

go figure.

[Christian Liberty]

By whom? A candidate, or a fellow in the liberty movement? Each may have a different answer. Live and let live, Matt!

Matt is against liberty, and his purpose here is to co-op the movement. This is the only purpose mods should have on this forum, to keep neocons who are pretending to be libertarians and trying to water down the message out. Matt should be banned.




This lesson is important, and efforts to teach it are a positive step. But people make their own choices - it is a totally different thing to say we need to police the movement and kick people out of it. No one speaks for the liberty movement - and anyone who tries is likely an aspiring authoritarian.

Matt is an aspiring authoritarian.


I am not a fan of possessing drugs. I am also not a fan of prosecuting for possession based on what is found in a house occupied by multiple people.

I'm not a fan of possessing drugs either. But, are you in favor of prosecuting drugs in ANY case? Because that seems like a very non-liberty minded position. Even if the drugs were Adam's, so what? That doesn't mean he should be arrested. You don't have to be a fan of something to say that thugs in blue costumes have no right to threaten violence to prevent it.



I also believe that police raids need greater accountability as to chain of custody. Political persecution does occur - and planting evidence does occur. I see it as slightly more likely than the average case that foulplay has occurred here - I would just hope that reasonable doubt is consistently applied in all cases.

I doubt that it will be, but I hope so to.

How about for starters, for 50 years I have heard that fucking line "War is hell" every time someone wanted to justify a "venting" action by a side you identify with. Last time I heard it was on these forums when the communist Serbian/Canadian poster used it to justify the women and children getting killed in Bosnia by his unit.

Did you read the context of my post? I wasn't justifying anything with that quote. I was using it as a reason to avoid war. Duh.

[Christian Liberty]

from Adam's facebook page...

''Libertarianism says that violence is the last resort. Statism says it's the first.''

ya see?...its crazy bastards like Adam that make Matt look bad.....

go figure.

Because Matt is a statist, and Adam is a libertarian.

I'll side with Adam Kokesh over Matt Collins any day.

[oldietech]

I hope that Adam's activism gives others the courage to activate. If I was tossed in the gulag for my civil disobedience, Adam would be the man I would hope to find "inside".

[nayjevin]

I'm not a fan of possessing drugs either. But, are you in favor of prosecuting drugs in ANY case? Because that seems like a very non-liberty minded position. Even if the drugs were Adam's, so what? That doesn't mean he should be arrested. You don't have to be a fan of something to say that thugs in blue costumes have no right to threaten violence to prevent it.

I am not opposed to like minded individuals making a rule for their society that drug users will be forcibly removed. I think it would work best for the individual and for the society to make therapy mandatory rather than imprisonment. I am against a theory of social contract whereby members of society are beholden to rules they do not agree with.

From a scientific perspective it would be most illuminating to have at least 1 of the 50 experiments in a Republic be an anti-drug state.

[LibertyEagle]

He and Compromise should be banned. They're trying to make our movement whore with neocons and it shouldn't be tolerated.


FrankRep is repulsive.


Frank is evil.

Who died and left you lord and master?


Matt is against liberty, and his purpose here is to co-op the movement. This is the only purpose mods should have on this forum, to keep neocons who are pretending to be libertarians and trying to water down the message out. Matt should be banned.
:rolleyes: Oh, bull. Matt is very knowledgeable about the tactics of actually getting someone elected. He went to the training, like everyone here could do if they wanted to know same. Thing is, not everyone here is interested in getting our candidates elected and it appears that Matt may not recognize them as a part of the larger movement.

You seem to want to ban everyone who doesn't walk lockstep with you. As long as we all focus on our interests, without trying to destroy the activism of others in the same movement, wouldn't that be a better option?

[Christian Liberty]

I hope that Adam's activism gives others the courage to activate. If I was tossed in the gulag for my civil disobedience, Adam would be the man I would hope to find "inside".

Me too.


I am not opposed to like minded individuals making a rule for their society that drug users will be forcibly removed.

Forcibly removed from what? Their property? Of course they have that right. But their own homes? That's a completely anti-liberty position.

Mind you, I don't want the Federal government telling the states what to do. But from a rights based perspective, rights belong ti individuals, not states or even communities. This is just a variation of "love it or leave it". And it doesn't work.


I think it would work best for the individual and for the society to make therapy mandatory rather than imprisonment.

That would be better, but better still would be to simply stop aggressing against people who do things you personally don't like.




I am against a theory of social contract whereby members of society are beholden to rules they do not agree with.


So, does the drug user agree to get locked up for using drugs? Of course not. Why is this even an issue?

This seems like a variation of "they're taking our freedom to oppress other people away. We didn't agree to this law where people can do whatever peaceful things they want."



From a scientific perspective it would be most illuminating to have at least 1 of the 50 experiments in a Republic be an anti-drug state.


I'll take freedom over "science" any day. But this has already been tried, federally. Its called "war on drugs" and it does not work.


Who died and left you lord and master?

You don't see the downright evil in defending cops who beat people to death? If you don't see that you are evil too.

I'm not lord or master of anything, I just have a conscience. Do you?

[LibertyEagle]

You don't see the downright evil in defending cops who beat people to death? If you don't see that you are evil too.

I'm not lord or master of anything, I just have a conscience. Do you?

I don't have to agree with everyone here. Remind me, weren't you the one who recently was whining about Sola Fide being banned? Now, here you are advocating every other person be banned and why? Because YOU don't agree with their stance on an issue and which does not break any forum guidelines.

Hypocritical much?

[fisharmor]

I do support Adam Kokesh, and I do so publicly - and I will continue doing so, thank you very much!

Me too. And I support Stephan Molyneux as well. I support both of them to a point.
And I say this knowing full well that both are opposed to traditional Christianity, something I subscribe to.
If I'm willing to stake my mortal soul against their being right about some things, why then are others so unwilling to stake their libertarian credentials against them?


What is this picture about? Where is it from? I am seeing it frequently on this forum.

It's just a variation on the "Mind=Blown" meme.
Or, an animated representation of what it would look like if Matt actually spent the brainpower necessary to see that he started this thread for the sole purpose of engaging in the exact thing he accuses other people of.

[Christian Liberty]

I don't have to agree with everyone here. Remind me, weren't you the one who recently was whining about Sola Fide being banned? Now, here you are advocating every other person be banned and why? Because YOU don't agree with their stance on an issue and which does not break any forum guidelines.

Hypocritical much?

Every other person? Only two particular ones. Because they are trolls.

I wouldn't care if they consistently didn't moderate. But to ban for a religious viewpoint and refuse to do so for a political one that blatantly violates site guidelines seems odd to me.

I don't consider celebrating aggressive violence to be just another viewpoint, but I guess that's why I'm an ancap.

[Anti Federalist]

Frank left because of that topic about Kelly Thomas, so that's why he hasn't been around at all.

To be fair I never really debated Frank before that topic, that was really my first time, so it skewed my impression of him. Looking back at his post history, though, he didn't seem so bad. I'm not sure what happened with him in that topic and why he behaved that way.

Can't argue with you on the point about bad energy. I should start coming to RPF with a pack of cigs ready just to cool off after reading through some of these topics.

No, Frank was not that bad at all, and it's a shame he took so much heat for one poorly thought out position.

He should have re-considered just how poorly thought out staking that claim was.

[Christian Liberty]

Me too. And I support Stephan Molyneux as well. I support both of them to a point.
And I say this knowing full well that both are opposed to traditional Christianity, something I subscribe to.
If I'm willing to stake my mortal soul against their being right about some things, why then are others so unwilling to stake their libertarian credentials against them?



It's just a variation on the "Mind=Blown" meme.
Or, an animated representation of what it would look like if Matt actually spent the brainpower necessary to see that he started this thread for the sole purpose of engaging in the exact thing he accuses other people of.

I've never liked Molineux. But I haven't listened to him much either. Or Kokesh for that matter.

[Christian Liberty]

No, Frank was not that bad at all, and it's a shame he took so much heat for one poorly thought out position.

He should have re-considered just how poorly thought out staking that claim was.

I respectfully disagree with you here. Its not just "a position." Its literally, outright supporting murder. It was a position that indicated an extreme amount of worship for the State. It was disgusting.

[PRB]

he didn't contest drug charges?!

[Anti Federalist]

Actually, none of the posts you're talking about were deleted. There were multiple topics about Kelly Thomas. I think the ones you're talking about are in this topic:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?441365-Police-officers-not-guilty-in-Kelly-Thomas-beating-death

That topic was nothing but fighting amongst members and people venting about the verdict. I don't take things like that seriously on the Internet, especially since I think most people were just venting. Neither should you. I've seen far worse than people wishing that cops' families were murdered by other cops so they learn a lesson. It was just venting. PaulConventionWV even pointed that out in that very topic. I didn't even see FrankRep post in that topic, so I doubt that's what caused him to leave. I'm pretty sure the "Him making uninformed and ignorant comments about the video where Kelly Thomas was beaten to death and then being called out for it by every other member" was the real reason he left.

I can assure you, that is correct.

[Anti Federalist]

I respectfully disagree with you here. Its not just "a position." Its literally, outright supporting murder. It was a position that indicated an extreme amount of worship for the State. It was disgusting.

I happen to agree, but he did not see it that way, thus the reference to "position".

I'm sure in his mind he did not see it that way.

Many, many people...corrected...him.

He did not care for that, and left.

[Christian Liberty]

I happen to agree, but he did not see it that way, thus the reference to "position".

I'm sure in his mind he did not see it that way.

Many, many people...corrected...him.

He did not care for that, and left.

I don't see how someone who sincerely supports liberty, even if they are a little misguided on what that looks like, can say something like that.

[purplechoe]

I've never liked Molineux. But I haven't listened to him much either. Or Kokesh for that matter.

I was like that at first as well. Although I have my own points of view that don't line up with Molyneux (mainly Christianity - which I probably disagree with you on quite a bit) I believe he has a ton to contribute to the movement of human liberty and I consider him to be a tremendous asset of philosophical thought.

Zeitgeist Versus the Market - Peter Joseph Debates Stefan Molyneux


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUtv5E6CkLE

Stefan Molyneux Versus Professor Vladimir Safatle 'The Function of the State in Society'


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpqyepCPphA

[angelatc]

The best part about Collins is that he can immediately unify the entire board into a single entity that hates one person more than all others. But that person isn't Adam.

It's like Collins is America, and we are the Shi'ites and the Sunni.

[Occam's Banana]

The best part about Collins is that he can immediately unify the entire board into a single entity that hates one person more than all others. But that person isn't Adam.

It's like Collins is America, and we are the Shi'ites and the Sunni.

Allahu Akbar!

[Schifference]

Do you think good consul would advise Adam to remain quiet until after sentencing?

[purplechoe]

The best part about Collins is that he can immediately unify the entire board into a single entity that hates one person more than all others. But that person isn't Adam.

It's like Collins is America, and we are the Shi'ites and the Sunni.

Yes, I agree. Thanks Matt for bring us a lot closer together.

I was critical of Adam's tactics in bringing the loaded gun to D.C. but he has done more for human liberty then Matt ever has or will do. I remember having a tremendous respect for Adam when I first saw him giving testimony to congress on CSPAN when he returned from Iraq about what he witnessed there before I even knew he was a Ron Paul supporter and that respect has only grown over time. I wish he would stick to using his voice as a weapon because he's very intelligent and has tremendous communication skills.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/001/09/001-0905173005-kokesh_mccain.jpg

http://warisacrime.org/sites/afterdowningstreet.org/files/images/RNC%20Kokesh%20Can%27t%20Win%20An%20Occupation%200 9042008.jpg

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/001/07/001-0715213725-Adam-Kokesh.jpg

http://momslovefreedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/FE_DA_130513kokesh620x413_adam_kokesh.jpg

Adam is a hero!!!

[Christian Liberty]

The best part about Collins is that he can immediately unify the entire board into a single entity that hates one person more than all others. But that person isn't Adam.

It's like Collins is America, and we are the Shi'ites and the Sunni.

LOL!

[Root]

Five pages of this thread, and I still can't figure out who the victim is.

[tod evans]

Five pages of this thread, and I still can't figure out who the victim is.

Matt......

Just send money..:rolleyes:

[bunklocoempire]

To 90% of the people on this rock we inhabit (or at least the portion of them paying attention at all), Ron Paul looks bad. Like scary bad. Doesn't mean shit to me, as he is right and they are morons. But should we try to get THAT man to keep quiet, tone it down a little?

Yes, of course, he should tone down. And don't get me started on newsletters and donors. Should of been way more ostracizing and policing. Matter of fact, I think Ron should disown Rand just to be on the safe side.

Let "us" by all means give the MSM, the establishment, and a bunch of ignorant emotional voters more power. It's the only way "we" "win".
Simple truth and the individual's conscience are WAY overrated, and how important are they really to "win"? However, once "we" "win", THEN "we'll" be able to educate the ignorant emotional voter, and that newly educated mass will chase the establishment out, reform the MSM, and hone their individual consciences.

I've got a cousin (riff-raff) already serving 5 years fed in Ohio for "straw purchasing", I think to play it safe I'll refrain from donating. To get more freedom we're going to need less freedom first.

/s -Except that cousin riff-raff part. :(:mad: My best guess as to why someone would take a ostracizing and policing approach is that they haven't been directly affected in a bad way by what ignorant, emotional voters have done with the help of MSM, and the establishment.

[Badger Paul]

"See this, Matt? THIS is the result of your division. It returns apathy to those who would be your allies."

And he doesn't care in the least. Neither he or members of the "claque" or the "family" of insiders of Paul INC. want your allegience or your help unless you're willing to kiss their ass and GIVE! GIVE! GIVE! They know what kind of campaign they want in 2016 and it doesn't include people who are "independent minded".

I'm certainly not going to defend what Kokesh has said or done because it's indefensible in my eyes. He could have been something special instead became just another inmate. People here on RPF have to find the middle ground between useless radicalism which no one will follow other than people who have "Born to Lose" tattoed on their foreheads and lands you in prison. Or the other extreme which is the Collins and the parasite crew who make living off your donations so they can get government jobs and make a living off your taxes.

Keep this up Collins and believe me the gloating that will take place if McConnell and your old pal JB lose in November will make your snark look like a kiddie party. Sometimes the better course of action in politics is to keep your mouth shut, something you obviously haven't learned yet. Would it have pained you to just have been quiet about this sensitve subject? Certainly not, but I guess you couldn't help yourself. If I lived in Kentucky (and perhaps some on these board who do) I'd have a good mind to vote for Grimes if only to see Benton go down in flames and the look on your face when it happens.

[Badger Paul]

"That effectively meant ending campaigning. Can you not read between the lines?"

If that were true Collins you would have been crapping in your pants because it would have meant no income coming into Paul Inc. and no money for you and your buddies to work with. Most Presidential candidates who quit a race actually say so, they shut down their campaign offices, stop their fundraising efforts, stop speaking to crowds and release their delegates, etc. But RP told us "Go out and get those delegate slots for our campaign!" and he had to. Otherwise no one would have contributed so much as a dime to a campaign that ceased to exist. But that wasn't true and we all know it wasnt true. It would have been a long summer for y'all financially if the Paul 2012 campaign actually did what most normal Presidential campaigns when they cease to be. But most normal campaigns (losing ones that it) don't spend millions on a political rally the day before the convention begins where the candidate won't offer an endorsement of the apparent nominee unlike his little boy. So you're lucky Ron was truly unique in this regard.

Yeah, we read between the lines and he wanted us to keeping going. And so did you, if only to keep yourself from starving.

[LibertyEagle]

"That effectively meant ending campaigning. Can you not read between the lines?"

If that were true Collins you would have been crapping in your pants because it would have meant no income coming into Paul Inc. and no money for you and your buddies to work with. Most Presidential candidates who quit a race actually say so, they shut down their campaign offices, stop their fundraising efforts, stop speaking to crowds and release their delegates, etc. But RP told us "Go out and get those delegate slots for our campaign!" and he had to. Otherwise no one would have contributed so much as a dime to a campaign that ceased to exist. But that wasn't true and we all know it wasnt true. It would have been a long summer for y'all financially if the Paul 2012 campaign actually did what most normal Presidential campaigns when they cease to be. But most normal campaigns (losing ones that it) don't spend millions on a political rally the day before the convention begins where the candidate won't offer an endorsement of the apparent nominee unlike his little boy. So you're lucky Ron was truly unique in this regard.

Yeah, we read between the lines and he wanted us to keeping going. And so did you, if only to keep yourself from starving.

Here's where you went south. This was never just about Ron Paul. Even when he knew he couldn't win, he wanted to continue laying the groundwork for the liberty movement to succeed in the future. And that's what he did. The rally that was held at the convention was all about attempting to show the Republican mainstream that we weren't scary and that we weren't going away, either. That was working pretty well until Walter Block got up there and gave his perverse dissertation about aborting babies. :rolleyes:

Ron HAD announced he had no chance to win. You must have forgotten the email that went out. He wasn't going to win the battle, but he damn sure planned to win the war. Perhaps if we stopped the infighting, we would have a better chance of making that happen.

[Christian Liberty]

"See this, Matt? THIS is the result of your division. It returns apathy to those who would be your allies."

And he doesn't care in the least. Neither he or members of the "claque" or the "family" of insiders of Paul INC. want your allegience or your help unless you're willing to kiss their ass and GIVE! GIVE! GIVE! They know what kind of campaign they want in 2016 and it doesn't include people who are "independent minded".

I'm certainly not going to defend what Kokesh has said or done because it's indefensible in my eyes. He could have been something special instead became just another inmate. People here on RPF have to find the middle ground between useless radicalism which no one will follow other than people who have "Born to Lose" tattoed on their foreheads and lands you in prison. Or the other extreme which is the Collins and the parasite crew who make living off your donations so they can get government jobs and make a living off your taxes.

Keep this up Collins and believe me the gloating that will take place if McConnell and your old pal JB lose in November will make your snark look like a kiddie party. Sometimes the better course of action in politics is to keep your mouth shut, something you obviously haven't learned yet. Would it have pained you to just have been quiet about this sensitve subject? Certainly not, but I guess you couldn't help yourself. If I lived in Kentucky (and perhaps some on these board who do) I'd have a good mind to vote for Grimes if only to see Benton go down in flames and the look on your face when it happens.

Are you aware of what Kokesh actually said? Collins and the OP are lying about what he actually said.

[LibertyEagle]

Every other person? Only two particular ones. Because they are trolls.
Be careful there. Some might consider YOU a troll.


I wouldn't care if they consistently didn't moderate. But to ban for a religious viewpoint and refuse to do so for a political one that blatantly violates site guidelines seems odd to me.
They didn't ban anyone for their religious viewpoint. They were banned because they broke guidelines. For example, one of the illustrious people banned called Deborah K a "slut".


Are you aware of what Kokesh actually said? Collins and the OP are lying about what he actually said.

It's interesting that you accuse someone else of lying, when you know damn well that they weren't banned for their religious viewpoint. Bryan told you that more than once. Yet, you persist claiming that they were.


I don't consider celebrating aggressive violence to be just another viewpoint, but I guess that's why I'm an ancap.

:rolleyes: Ancaps are not the only ones who don't want government to have the monopoly on force. To even imply that on this forum is rather ignorant, don't you think? I'll answer for you. Yes, yes, it is.

[acptulsa]

I wouldn't care if they consistently didn't moderate. But to ban for a religious viewpoint and refuse to do so for a political one that blatantly violates site guidelines seems odd to me.

No one has been banned from this site for having a particular religious viewpoint.

It doesn't matter what a spammer spams, the spammer is banned for spamming.

[mad cow]

Every other person? Only two particular ones. Because they are trolls.

I wouldn't care if they consistently didn't moderate. But to ban for a religious viewpoint and refuse to do so for a political one that blatantly violates site guidelines seems odd to me.

I don't consider celebrating agressive violence to be just another viewpoint, but I guess that's why I'm an ancap.

So are you no longer calling for the execution of cops who shoplift?

[Anti Federalist]

That was working pretty well until Walter Block got up there and gave his perverse dissertation about aborting babies. :rolleyes:

I have to say that did more "damage" than all of Adam's antics, combined.

I remember watching that and thinking, "oh no, no...somebody wave him off, please!"

[Badger Paul]

"Ron HAD announced he had no chance to win."

In those primaries. The caucus and convention votes were a different story. Why couldn't he just say: "The campaign's over, I'm done. It's finished. I'm dropping out. I endorse the winner Mitt Romney." He did not. He continued to speak at universities drawing large crowds, supporters continued to win delegate slots and they continued to ask for funds to help do these things plus stage the rally. As I said before, it was a clever way of keeping the campaign going, maintaining the appearance of a campaign so the money kept coming in until the convention. Yet at its heart it was dishonest. Because they knew more people would have give to the Ron Paul campaign for President than some vague notion of "keeping the liberty movement going" which would have drawn in very little in terms of donations. So they had to make it look like he was still running and any number emails, words from Doug Wead or Jack Hunter or John Tate fed this impression.

Remember conference call fiasco when some campaign flunkie said the campiagn had no intentions of nominating RP from the convention floor? Then John Tate had to email everyone to clarify that the flunkie misspoke. Well as turned out, the flunkie was right. They had no intentions of doing so, not after the crooked deal they entered into for the Louisiana delegation. Because Mitt didn't want us nominate Ron and the campaign did what they were told under Rand's orders.

Bottom line these guys lied and took our money for themselves. And it caused a lot of bad blood that won't heal they're not interested in uniting the movement again. Fine then, Rand will suffer for it.

[purplechoe]

Personally I don't begrudge Adam from smoking marijuana. Someone like him probably went through a lot of stress from his stint in Iraq. I think it's a better alternative than taking some prescription medication like prozac, xanax, or some other medication to make you feel better. A lot of the troops in Vietnam started smoking weed just to help them get by with all the stress involved in being in such a f***** up situation they were put into fighting in those jungles. Even the DMT I saw him experimenting with I can overlook. I would be worried about him if he's doing some other hardcore drugs like cocaine, crack, heroin, meth, etc., which I have not heard about so far, not withstanding what some government thugs are accusing him of... (probably planting evidence, because you know the cops would be totally above doing such a thing :rolleyes:)

[LibertyEagle]

"Ron HAD announced he had no chance to win."

In those primaries. The caucus and convention votes were a different story. Why couldn't he just say: "The campaign's over, I'm done. It's finished. I'm dropping out. I endorse the winner Mitt Romney." He did not. He continued to speak at universities drawing large crowds, supporters continued to win delegate slots and they continued to ask for funds to help do these things plus stage the rally. As I said before, it was a clever way of keeping the campaign going, maintaining the appearance of a campaign so the money kept coming in until the convention. Yet at its heart it was dishonest. Because they knew more people would have give to the Ron Paul campaign for President than some vague notion of "keeping the liberty movement going" which would have drawn in very little in terms of donations. So they had to make it look like he was still running and any number emails, words from Doug Wead or Jack Hunter or John Tate fed this impression.

Remember conference call fiasco when some campaign flunkie said the campiagn had no intentions of nominating RP from the convention floor? Then John Tate had to email everyone to clarify that the flunkie misspoke. Well as turned out, the flunkie was right. They had no intentions of doing so, not after the crooked deal they entered into for the Louisiana delegation. Because Mitt didn't want us nominate Ron and the campaign did what they were told under Rand's orders.

Do you have any proof of that assertion, Badger?


Bottom line these guys lied and took our money for themselves. And it caused a lot of bad blood that won't heal they're not interested in uniting the movement again.
For themselves? As in pocketing it? I don't think so. Not at all.


Fine then, Rand will suffer for it.
Isn't this like biting off your nose to spite your face? Whatever Ron and his campaign did were on Ron. Not Rand. I didn't agree with how everything went down and that includes both of Ron's campaigns. But, the liberty movement would not be where it is now, had Ron not run. The rest is what it is.

[NorfolkPCSolutions]

No, just people who make the movement look bad. We have to police our own and keep the riff-raff out.

Fuck you for that comment, Matt Collins. 33k posts and nearly a decade on these forums and it hasn't sunk in yet...all kinds of people supported Ron Paul, posted here, and will continue to post things you might not find intellectually palatable or presentable to establishment GOP types. They're not the future.

Folks that see Kokesh through the lens of history are. We recognize that Adam Kokesh will be remembered favorably for his actions in 200 years. You and I will not even be remembered. Marinate on that for a moment.

If they can do it to Adam Kokesh, they can do it to Matt Collins or norfolkpcsolutions; the guy was set up. I wonder whether your position moves us closer or further away from the day they do it to us.

[Galileo Galilei]

Ron sent out an e-mail saying that he was no longer seeking the nomination. A day or two later Rand endorsed Romney. Are you incapable of remembering the facts? If so, go look it up.

OMG! People are still bitching about the Romney endorsement? Did people not forget that the Chuck Baldwin endorsement cost Ron the Iowa caucus and straw poll? Get over it.

Paul: I can't win the GOP nomination
5/15/12 10:51 AM EDT
http://www.politico.com/blogs/charlie-mahtesian/2012/05/paul-i-cant-win-the-gop-nomination-123491.html

Rand Paul endorses Romney
6/7/12 9:47 PM EDT
http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2012/06/rand-paul-endorses-romney-125624.html

[Christian Liberty]

Personally I don't begrudge Adam from smoking marijuana. Someone like him probably went through a lot of stress from his stint in Iraq. I think it's a better alternative than taking some prescription medication like prozac, xanax, or some other medication to make you feel better. A lot of the troops in Vietnam started smoking weed just to help them get by with all the stress involved in being in such a f***** up situation they were put into fighting in those jungles. Even the DMT I saw him experimenting with I can overlook. I would be worried about him if he's doing some other hardcore drugs like cocaine, crack, heroin, meth, etc., which I have not heard about so far, not withstanding what some government thugs are accusing him of... (probably planting evidence, because you know the cops would be totally above doing such a thing :rolleyes:)

I can understand worrying about it. But, would you advocate government violence (drug laws) because of that worry? That's the real question. If you support liberty, you should support Kokesh's rights to use any drugs he likes even if you disprove.

[scrosnoe]

One does not have to attend every argument you are invited to. Having said that it saddens me when we don't look out for everyone in the movement. It is one thing to disagree and quite another to tear one another down. Please learn to state your case without being destructive to one another. You never know when you may need one another up ahead. Each one of us see things from a different perspective and not a one of us sees the whole matter.

My prayers are with Adam and the situation that he is in even if they seem to be largely the consequences of his own actions and choices. I pray for him and for us as we move ahead in difficult times. May we find ways to bless and encourage one another whenever and wherever possible.

My prayers are with Matt that he would not be disrespected and learn to communicate in ways that can be heard. May he know that he is among friends.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

[jjdoyle]

OMG! People are still bitching about the Romney endorsement? Did people not forget that the Chuck Baldwin endorsement cost Ron the Iowa caucus and straw poll? Get over it.

Paul: I can't win the GOP nomination
5/15/12 10:51 AM EDT
http://www.politico.com/blogs/charlie-mahtesian/2012/05/paul-i-cant-win-the-gop-nomination-123491.html

Rand Paul endorses Romney
6/7/12 9:47 PM EDT
http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2012/06/rand-paul-endorses-romney-125624.html

The May 15th was walked back by the campaign, but it is also when Jesse Benton went on a press call with members of the press and reconfirmed what had already been reported months earlier, that Ron Paul 2012 was already talking with Romney's campaign, and had been doing so.

Ron Paul sent out an email on June 6th being vague about his chances, the day before Rand endorsed Mitt Romney.
And the reason the campaign walked back the May 15th statement, is because they were still sending out press emails trying to raise money they didn't need in a moneybomb on May 17th:
Portion of email sent May 16th -
"Dear Supporter,

So what’s wrong with limited constitutional government? What’s wrong with restoring our country to its founding principles?

What’s the matter with fighting for a renewed respect for free markets, sound money, individual liberty, and an America-first foreign policy?

In my book, absolutely nothing.

You and I remember the backlash from the Republican “old guard” who didn’t like my father rocking their boat when he ran for the presidency in 2008.

Well, that 2008 presidential run helped launch the Tea Party – not to mention my victorious campaign for the U.S. Senate in 2010.

As for the fruits of Ron Paul’s 2012 run for the White House?

Well, they’re being determined right now.

That’s why I hope you’ll contribute as generously as you can to tomorrow’s Rise for Liberty Money Bomb."

Portion of email sent May 20th:
"Dear Supporter,

Yesterday afternoon, Minnesota was added to the list of Ron Paul wins with a stunning victory.

Out of the 40 national delegates Minnesota will send to the Tampa, Florida Republican National Convention in August, a whopping 32 are Ron Paul supporters!

It was incredible.

But the truth is, we're not done yet!

That's why, if you haven’t yet given to what is likely the final money bomb of Ron Paul's political career, hope you will contribute as generously as you can IMMEDIATELY (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/8703965:12071347081:m:1:261801005:1EB39BC1B316B814 15E3BB54B72E6B03:r).

You see, there are still state conventions in Iowa, Washington, Missouri, and elsewhere where we’re working feverishly to pick up new delegate spots and take over key positions within the Republican Party."

BUT, on this, I do hope that Adam gets off, maybe with probation? But if not, wouldn't it be really ironic if Adam ended up in the same federal prison as some of the Ron Paul 2012 staff if there is more to the Kent Sorenson bribery issue (http://theiowarepublican.com/2014/fec-opens-new-investigation-into-ron-paul-2012-campaign-sorenson-payoff/), and they are convicted of any charges that might be brought up?

[PRB]

The best part about Collins is that he can immediately unify the entire board into a single entity that hates one person more than all others. But that person isn't Adam.

It's like Collins is America, and we are the Shi'ites and the Sunni.

Who is it then?

[Weston White]

Putting the drug charges aside—which I am very perplexed as to why they all did not have the foresight to remove all that paraphernalia prior to pulling their preplanned stunt (Seriously, did he and his crew really not think they would be coming after him for publicly releasing that video?)—isn’t this exactly what Adam wanted? That is to challenge the unconstitutional gun laws in D.C. and have his case heard before the USSC? And to that end, is he not well on his way to meeting that goal? So we should be inspired by his successful act of civil disobedience, no?

But if they had found myriad of drugs including “LSD, marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy and mushrooms”, why was only one drug related charge filed?

Apropos, should criminal charges, ever really be pursued when the case is so very clearly an act of non-violent disobedience in protest of an issue believed by a vast majority of the population to be unconstitutional? Really, isn’t the entire matter underscored by diluted fantasies of public “officials”, while serving at the same time to make a mockery of the justice system itself? Perhaps, it is just me, but images of children playing cops and robbers, throwing tea parties with dollhouses, and gorging themselves on Trix spring into my mind. Now seriously, it cannot just be me can it?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

No, that's not how it works.

You get a list of people who care about your issue. You get them to pressure the politicians. Then you mobilize that list to persuade likely voters to vote against that politician.

That is how you win.



I completely understand and agree with this. I get it.

But the state governments can change this, and they are on their way to changing it in a few instances. But it is going to take liberty people working to push their state legislatures into submission which is quite possible. I know because I've seen it done, and I've done it myself.


So can you give some detailed examples where you have done this yourself? What have you done in your locale? What list of people, and where are you getting these lists? You also mentioned how you have pressured politicians who are scared of losing their jobs. What are the names of these politicians?


Edit: Oh, by the way, I clicked on your home page link attached to your profile and got a broken link. What is your home page?

[PRB]

So can you give some detailed examples where you have done this yourself? What have you done in your locale? What list of people, and where are you getting these lists? You also mentioned how you have pressured politicians who are scared of losing their jobs. What are the names of these politicians?


Edit: Oh, by the way, I clicked on your home page link attached to your profile and got a broken link. What is your home page?

I am honestly interested in hearing examples too. Not to put him on the spot, but I love to know things are doable, I don't like to give up on my dreams.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

The best part about Collins is that he can immediately unify the entire board into a single entity that hates one person more than all others. But that person isn't Adam.










Who is it then? Well, since you joined the thread, it's probably a tie.

[PRB]

Well, since you joined the thread, it's probably a tie.

what does Collins have to do with me being hated?

[PRB]

repeat deleted

[Weston White]

Support Adam Kokesh privately if you wish, but do everyone a favor and don't associate him with libertarian principles - else libertarian principles become harder to sell to the electorate. Again, rightly or wrongly.

Ah, the source of the confusion, Adam’s ideology lies much more in the anarchist’s camp than the libertarian’s.

[PRB]

repeat. sorry.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I am honestly interested in hearing examples too. Not to put him on the spot,...


Oh, I'm sure you'd love some examples. It would take attention off of you.

You must be eating this thread up.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

what does Collins have to do with me being hated?

If you really want an answer, then I could set up a poll.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I've never liked this guy. Too much of his animus was coming from a disrespect of authority. He's just a kid who found a suitable stage to play out the drama of his life, he's got a lot of growing up to do.

Hopefully his time in prison teaches him a valuable lesson.

[fisharmor]

OMG! People are still bitching about the Romney endorsement? Did people not forget that the Chuck Baldwin endorsement cost Ron the Iowa caucus and straw poll? Get over it.

Dude, it was explained in detail twice in this thread before you showed up to just pronounce, again, that Ron had dropped out.
I even posted links showing that Ron didn't drop out.

As long as you and everyone else who thinks he dropped out continue to completely lack basic reading comprehension skills, we absolutely will not stop "bitching" about it.

There is no "movement" as long as some people in it are incapable of reading and processing a mere paragraph's worth of data.

ETA, whoops, that was too many words to make my point, again. Damn. I guess I should give up.

[LibertyEagle]

Dude, it was explained in detail twice in this thread before you showed up to just pronounce, again, that Ron had dropped out.
I even posted links showing that Ron didn't drop out.

As long as you and everyone else who thinks he dropped out continue to completely lack basic reading comprehension skills, we absolutely will not stop "bitching" about it.

There is no "movement" as long as some people in it are incapable of reading and processing a mere paragraph's worth of data.

ETA, whoops, that was too many words to make my point, again. Damn. I guess I should give up.

No, he didn't officially drop out, he just basically said he had no chance to win. :rolleyes:

[Badger Paul]

"Do you have any proof of that assertion, Badger?"

Do I have an internal memo? No. But I, like any thinking human being, can deduce than young Rand Paul wants to run for President someday and also knows his chances are greatly enhanced if he's seen as good company man instead of being a wrecker. I can also deduce that one of the primary strategies for the Paul 2012 campaign is not to do anything that would hurt Rand's chances of winning the nomination in 2016. Rand wants to make a speech at the GOP Convention in 2012. He knows the only way he can do so is by endorsing Mitt and handing over valuable voter lists to the Romney campaign. The senior staffers of the campaign also know their futures in the party are tied to "go-along-get-along" approach too. Mitt has the nomination wrapped up and wants the campaign to end. But the Paul INC. team also know that ending the campaign in May/June with the convention not until late August/September would jeopardize their fundraising. Who's going to give to a moneybomb for a campaign that's no longer in business? So they devise a clever scheme to where Rand pays the proper homage to Mitt and top-level Paul INC. staffers are awarded jobs throughout the company (Benton with McConnell, Howard with the RNC, Tate with CFL, ect) while Ron goes about the country "giving the message" and grassroots supporters go about getting delegates and contributing money to do so making it look like this is still a competitive race when it wasn't. And people getting those delegate slots weren't sacrificing their time and money going to conventions all over their respective states just so they could look good on TV in Tampa. They wanted to be a part of a delibrative process, one which nominated Ron Paul as a Presidential candidate at the convention. Yes he would have lost but at least the process would have been followed and validated. Mitt Romney said no, everything has to perfect, 100 percent for me in my little North Korean politburo meeting aka the GOP National Convention. I hope Mitt isn't still wondering why he lost in 2012.

This goes way beyond just an endorsement or about "winding things down." Its just one of many examples throughout 2011-12 campaign along with the Sorenson bribe allegations, the lack of campaigning in Virginia against Romney or not campaigning against Romney in Michigan, allegations of back room dealing with the Romney campaign, which leaves grassroots supporters upset as to how the campaign was run and their money which made it possible was used (or some cases not used). All of these things have alienated those supporters to the point, as we see thread, where many will be sitting out 2016. Now in my opinion I don't think Collins and those folks really care if we help Rand 2016. And that's fine. But you can't blame us for being just little resentful at how the Paul movement transferred itself from a grassroots show (especially for those of us who were there in the beginning in February 2007) to being run now by a bunch of selfish pricks. Maybe that's just the evolution of politics but we don't have to like it or support it anymore.

[Cap]

I don't think Collins and those folks really care if we help Rand 2016. And that's fine. But you can't blame us for being just little resentful at how the Paul movement transferred itself from a grassroots show (especially for those of us who were there in the beginning in February 2007) to being run now by a bunch of selfish pricks. Maybe that's just the evolution of politics but we don't have to like it or support it anymore.Good post. The Collinz should pack up his keyboard and take residence over at freerepublic. He wouldn't be missed here.

[donnay]

One does not have to attend every argument you are invited to. Having said that it saddens me when we don't look out for everyone in the movement. It is one thing to disagree and quite another to tear one another down. Please learn to state your case without being destructive to one another. You never know when you may need one another up ahead. Each one of us see things from a different perspective and not a one of us sees the whole matter.

My prayers are with Adam and the situation that he is in even if they seem to be largely the consequences of his own actions and choices. I pray for him and for us as we move ahead in difficult times. May we find ways to bless and encourage one another whenever and wherever possible.

My prayers are with Matt that he would not be disrespected and learn to communicate in ways that can be heard. May he know that he is among friends.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

Beautifully put. I wished more people would think like this. +rep

[Chester Copperpot]

i didnt even know this qas was going on... i thought he got out on everything last year?

[Matt Collins]

So can you give some detailed examples where you have done this yourself? What have you done in your locale? What list of people, and where are you getting these lists? You also mentioned how you have pressured politicians who are scared of losing their jobs. What are the names of these politicians?I am not putting my entire CV out there for any opposition researcher to use against me (which is why I didn't populate my LinkedIn page). I have done a lot of stuff, but the most visible accomplishment I can say was to kill a bill in TN that would've taken DNA from everyone arrested for a felony, even non-violent felonies. I stopped that from becoming law by mobilizing as many people as possible.

As far as list building, take some Campaign for Liberty classes (http://www.facltraining.org/facl2/schools.htm), and you'll learn how to build lists.

[Spikender]

I've never liked this guy. Too much of his animus was coming from a disrespect of authority. He's just a kid who found a suitable stage to play out the drama of his life, he's got a lot of growing up to do.

Hopefully his time in prison teaches him a valuable lesson.

This is what every good little neocon thinks to himself as he watches Adam get hauled off to jail for the most bullshit, anti-freedom hogwash of the century.

Glad to see we are representing this segment of the populace here on RPF.

[Matt Collins]

Folks that see Kokesh through the lens of history are. We recognize that Adam Kokesh will be remembered favorably for his actions in 200 years. You and I will not even be remembered. Marinate on that for a moment.LOL, yeah, no one will remember Adam in 200 days, much less 200 years ha ha ha.

[Matt Collins]

"Ron HAD announced he had no chance to win."

In those primaries. The caucus and convention votes were a different story. Why couldn't he just say: "The campaign's over, I'm done. It's finished. I'm dropping out. I endorse the winner Mitt Romney." He did not. He continued to speak at universities drawing large crowds, supporters continued to win delegate slots and they continued to ask for funds to help do these things plus stage the rally. As I said before, it was a clever way of keeping the campaign going, maintaining the appearance of a campaign so the money kept coming in until the convention. Yet at its heart it was dishonest. Not at all... there were still state conventions that the campaign was working in order to accrue delegates. And Ron had a tremendous platform to talk about liberty at the time, so he took advantage of it. Not to mention the campaign still had to have funds to be able to do operations at the RNC.

[pcosmar]

No, he didn't officially drop out, he just basically said he had no chance to win. :rolleyes:

HE said he didn't know. That he had little chance.. It was a long shot..

And he had always said that.. He has never been arrogant about his chances of winning. Hopeful a few times.. Pleased and pleasantly surprised a few times.
But he has never given the impression that it was anything but a long shot.

And I would have still liked it if he had stayed in and on the ballot,, even if he had to run as a protest vote.

[Matt Collins]

"That effectively meant ending campaigning. Can you not read between the lines?"

If that were true Collins you would have been crapping in your pants because it would have meant no income coming into Paul Inc. and no money for you and your buddies to work with. LOL no... I was laid off in March along with the bulk of the staff. I wasn't back on payroll again except for 1 month when I was brought in to do the SunDome rally.



Most Presidential candidates who quit a race actually say so, they shut down their campaign offices, stop their fundraising efforts, stop speaking to crowds and release their delegates, etc. But RP told us "Go out and get those delegate slots for our campaign!" and he had to. Otherwise no one would have contributed so much as a dime to a campaign that ceased to exist. But that wasn't true and we all know it wasnt true. It would have been a long summer for y'all financially if the Paul 2012 campaign actually did what most normal Presidential campaigns when they cease to be. But most normal campaigns (losing ones that it) don't spend millions on a political rally the day before the convention begins where the candidate won't offer an endorsement of the apparent nominee unlike his little boy. So you're lucky Ron was truly unique in this regard. Your ignorance is showing here on multiple fronts.

The PCC did not spend "millions of dollars" on the rally. :rolleyes:

And RP2012 wasn't a normal campaign like some of the other hacks in the race, we are building for the long term, not just one cycle.

[Matt Collins]

Matt is against liberty, and his purpose here is to co-op the movement. This is the only purpose mods should have on this forum, to keep neocons who are pretending to be libertarians and trying to water down the message out. Matt should be banned.Nice to see you trying to censor people you disagree with. Hypocrite much?

[Matt Collins]

To 90% of the people on this rock we inhabit (or at least the portion of them paying attention at all), Ron Paul looks bad. Like scary bad. Doesn't mean shit to me, as he is right and they are morons. But should we try to get THAT man to keep quiet, tone it down a little?In most cases 90% of those people don't vote in Republican primaries, so their voices are not heard during election season.

[Matt Collins]

No one speaks for the liberty movement - and anyone who tries is likely an aspiring authoritarian.I agree, but the opposition will find the most radical unstable person they can, and push that individual forward as the person who speaks with the liberty movement. It is important to distance ourselves from those who could be tied to us as a boat anchor.

[Matt Collins]

You must have forgotten about the delegate strategy. With this, there was still a possibility for Ron. At the time of Rand's endorsement, we didn't know the RNC would end up not seating delegates and changing the rules at the last second with a sham vote. So, when Rand endorsed Romney, Ron technically still had a chance.No, Ron did not have enough delegates at the time to be able to secure the nomination.

[Matt Collins]

Just as much a fart in the wind as Adam's civil disobedience and youtube channel.

There is no hope.

None.

The only thing that will change America's course is complete, and utter catastrophe. Probably utter defeat and destruction in WW III.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defeatist

[Anti Federalist]

I've never liked this guy. Too much of his animus was coming from a disrespect of authority. He's just a kid who found a suitable stage to play out the drama of his life, he's got a lot of growing up to do.

Hopefully his time in prison teaches him a valuable lesson.

...


Challenge everything and the path will be clear

LOL

[Feeding the Abscess]

i didnt even know this qas was going on... i thought he got out on everything last year?

Federal charges were dropped, but the state charges were still pending.

[PRB]

If you really want an answer, then I could set up a poll.

go ahead. sorry for the repeat posts, either my browser or the forum had an error.

[purplechoe]

"Do you have any proof of that assertion, Badger?"

Do I have an internal memo? No. But I, like any thinking human being, can deduce than young Rand Paul wants to run for President someday and also knows his chances are greatly enhanced if he's seen as good company man instead of being a wrecker. I can also deduce that one of the primary strategies for the Paul 2012 campaign is not to do anything that would hurt Rand's chances of winning the nomination in 2016. Rand wants to make a speech at the GOP Convention in 2012. He knows the only way he can do so is by endorsing Mitt and handing over valuable voter lists to the Romney campaign. The senior staffers of the campaign also know their futures in the party are tied to "go-along-get-along" approach too. Mitt has the nomination wrapped up and wants the campaign to end. But the Paul INC. team also know that ending the campaign in May/June with the convention not until late August/September would jeopardize their fundraising. Who's going to give to a moneybomb for a campaign that's no longer in business? So they devise a clever scheme to where Rand pays the proper homage to Mitt and top-level Paul INC. staffers are awarded jobs throughout the company (Benton with McConnell, Howard with the RNC, Tate with CFL, ect) while Ron goes about the country "giving the message" and grassroots supporters go about getting delegates and contributing money to do so making it look like this is still a competitive race when it wasn't. And people getting those delegate slots weren't sacrificing their time and money going to conventions all over their respective states just so they could look good on TV in Tampa. They wanted to be a part of a delibrative process, one which nominated Ron Paul as a Presidential candidate at the convention. Yes he would have lost but at least the process would have been followed and validated. Mitt Romney said no, everything has to perfect, 100 percent for me in my little North Korean politburo meeting aka the GOP National Convention. I hope Mitt isn't still wondering why he lost in 2012.

This goes way beyond just an endorsement or about "winding things down." Its just one of many examples throughout 2011-12 campaign along with the Sorenson bribe allegations, the lack of campaigning in Virginia against Romney or not campaigning against Romney in Michigan, allegations of back room dealing with the Romney campaign, which leaves grassroots supporters upset as to how the campaign was run and their money which made it possible was used (or some cases not used). All of these things have alienated those supporters to the point, as we see thread, where many will be sitting out 2016. Now in my opinion I don't think Collins and those folks really care if we help Rand 2016. And that's fine. But you can't blame us for being just little resentful at how the Paul movement transferred itself from a grassroots show (especially for those of us who were there in the beginning in February 2007) to being run now by a bunch of selfish pricks. Maybe that's just the evolution of politics but we don't have to like it or support it anymore.

Here, here! Bravo sir, you nailed it...

http://www.silveryhat.com/fun_pix/data/129157477066831452.gif

[Bastiat's The Law]

I think Adam is mentally unstable.

[purplechoe]

LOL, yeah, no one will remember Adam in 200 days, much less 200 years ha ha ha.

You are delusional. 200 days? Adam has been a hero for the last 7 years. I feel sorry for you, you clearly cannot handle reality. You should go and start your own movement because it is clear that you in no shape or form represent Ron Paul and his ideals...

[purplechoe]

I think Adam is mentally unstable.

I think the same about you...