Adam Kokesh: Vegas Killers Were ‘Victims,’ Murdering Cops Saves Lives

[compromise]

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/adam-kokesh-vegas-killers-victims-murdering-cops-saves-lives-video/#.U5obRY1dXk1
A libertarian gun activist — who was convicted on weapons charges after he carried a loaded shotgun in downtown Washington, D.C. — this week defended two people who recently went on a shooting rampage in Las Vegas, killing two police officers and another person.

On his Wednesday Internet show, Adam Kokesh blasted the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) for noting that Jerad and Amanda Miller had been inspired by his gun activism.

“You’re not going to get away with it this time USA Today and SPLC,” Kokesh insisted, arguing that the shooters had acted because “authority has become a homicidal institution against freedom.”

Kokesh asserted that the slaying of the two officers was not “murder” because police are likely to kill people.

“Let’s say someone is going around stabbing people, like just stabbing people,” he opined. “It’s not murder to kill someone in that situation. And has been pointed out about the Vegas shooting, when you have police officers that are going around and doing violent things all day long, and then they take a break for lunch, well, it doesn’t mean all of the sudden they’re innocent or they’re being peaceful because they’re taking a break from all of their other anti-freedom, rights-violating violence.”

“Think of how many lives might have been saved by this incident. How many people would these cops have killed had they not been killed?” he asked. “We can only hope that some of the officers in America are listening — if you care about your own safety — to understand that you are hurting people, and you can only push them so far before they hit a breaking point.”

Kokesh argued that blaming Jerad and Amanda Miller was “kind of like blaming the victim,” adding that they could have been thinking about the time his home was raided after he posted the video of himself loading a shotgun in downtown D.C.

After a 15 minute rant about the SPLC, Kokesh concluded that the civil rights group may have confused his time as a “violent psychopath” working for the U.S. Marines with his current anti-government beliefs.

“And they want to say that I’m the guy that has some responsibility for this, that they need to associate me with the Millers. And there is an association, there is. Yeah. There is certainly something to be learned from this connection,” Kokesh said. “Violence begets violence. Turning to the institution of government to deal with these problems, an institution that is based on violence is guaranteed to make the problem worse.”

In the end, Kokesh called the killing “not necessarily unjustified violence,” even if it was “crazy and stupid.”

Watch the video below from Adam Vs. The Man, broadcast June 11, 2014.

Yup, he's lost it.

[JK/SEA]

well, at least i can't call Adam a bootlicker.... right?

[fisharmor]

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/adam-kokesh-vegas-killers-victims-murdering-cops-saves-lives-video/#.U5obRY1dXk1

Yup, he's lost it.

Your viewership, you mean?

I don't think you're the target audience. I think that's the people who have been similarly shoved around and see this situation for what it really is.

[dannno]

Yup, he's lost it.

What would you say if somebody killed some German Concentration Camp officers back in WWII when they were on their lunch break?

[squarepusher]

What would you say if somebody killed some German Concentration Camp officers back in WWII when they were on their lunch break?

keep in mind that the average German citizen probably would have been disgusted by it even then

[Matt Collins]

Yup, he's lost it.
And some around here were confused on WHY many figures in the movement distanced themselves from him :rolleyes:

[JK/SEA]

keep in mind that the average German citizen probably would have been disgusted by it even then

most german citizens were unaware of the camps i believe, but yeah, we can't be killing our masters attack dogs.

[JK/SEA]

And some around here were confused on WHY many figures in the movement distanced themselves from him :rolleyes:

not sure i ever heard Ron say anything about Adam.

[ZENemy]

Kelly Thomas agrees with Adam.

[JK/SEA]

Kelly Thomas agrees with Adam.

willing to bet there are more Kelly Thomases than people in Matts 'movement'...

[dannno]

keep in mind that the average German citizen probably would have been disgusted by it even then

Keep in mind that the average American citizen doesn't read AF's threads.

[presence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UDFOpqqW9M


http://i.imgur.com/Sblx4L7.png


Shooting Someone in the Back of the Head is...

[Christian Liberty]

Your viewership, you mean?

I don't think you're the target audience. I think that's the people who have been similarly shoved around and see this situation for what it really is.

I'm not sure what's worse, the fact that Adam said this, or the fact that compromise is offended by it.

Despite having never been personally bullied by cops, I get the logic. And I get why someone would think that way. But I still think its wrong.

Here's the problem, not every cop goes around stabbing people. And when the crime gets less, the issue gets tricky. Say we're talking about a pickpocket who goes around picking people's pockets. Is it right to shoot him to stop him from pickpocketing. It might be justifiable to stop him in the act (Even then it could be iffy, but it could be justified under the NAP.) But it wouldn't be justified to execute him as a vigilante sanction, or any other kind of penal sanction. Then again, I know its tricky because most cop crimes are "legal" or at least ignored. Even still, we shouldn't be going around shooting cops. Specific cops who have committed specific heinous crimes I can understand, but run of the mill cops? I don't think they're so evil that they deserve to die. That said, the run of the mill cop should probably be exposed to Adam's argument, so they be made to understand what they are really doing.

[ZENemy]

I'm not sure what's worse, the fact that Adam said this, or the fact that compromise is offended by it.

Despite having never been personally bullied by cops, I get the logic. And I get why someone would think that way. But I still think its wrong.

Here's the problem, not every cop goes around stabbing people. And when the crime gets less, the issue gets tricky. Say we're talking about a pickpocket who goes around picking people's pockets. Is it right to shoot him to stop him from pickpocketing. It might be justifiable to stop him in the act (Even then it could be iffy, but it could be justified under the NAP.) But it wouldn't be justified to execute him as a vigilante sanction, or any other kind of penal sanction. Then again, I know its tricky because most cop crimes are "legal" or at least ignored. Even still, we shouldn't be going around shooting cops. Specific cops who have committed specific heinous crimes I can understand, but run of the mill cops? I don't think they're so evil that they deserve to die. That said, the run of the mill cop should probably be exposed to Adam's argument, so they be made to understand what they are really doing.

Excellent post.

I think what the Vegas shooters did was feed the beast where as I feel we need to be starving it.

[Anti Federalist]

Meh, of course the anti-Kokesh contingent will be quick to side with SPLC and throw him under the bus.

But consider this:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453741-As-long-as-we-re-playing-the-guilt-by-association-game&highlight=Chris+dorner

[Christian Liberty]

Excellent post.

I think what the Vegas shooters did was feed the beast where as I feel we need to be starving it.

I just saw a post about a cop who stole from a terminally ill 3 year old. I have a hard time not wanting those types of cops to get shot. I don't care that they aren't technically at the level of a capital crime, they used their position to use aggressive violence against the helpless, knowing that police protect their own and that nothing will ever happen to them. Those types of cops deserve anything that we the citizenry decide to throw at them. My personal threshold to where I'd be willing to use lethal violence in protection of myself or my family is high, but not extraordinarily high. I am not under the impression that anybody has the right to do horrible things to other people just becuase they wear a blue uniform, and I admire anybody who's willing to put themselves out there to avenge something horrible done by the same when they are otherwise untouchable.

On the other hand, I know there are a lot of cops who just show up for work every day and enforce the law. They think doing so is "keeping us safe" and so forth. They haven't realized the moral disconnect in "just doing your job." Keep in mind that the common German soldier was not nurembered either, and while this could perhaps justly have been done, I'm glad that it wasn't. I feel similarly about the average cop that doesn't "get it." He's not good and his evil should be exposed. But he's not a monster and he certainly doesn't deserve the death penalty.

I'm not so worried about feeding the beast at this point. If the officers who killed Kelly Thomas were "murdered" I would say that that action was justified, even though pragmatically it would probably feed the beast since the average idiot would side with the officers. I'm also currently not certain of any strategy that I feel is likely to lead to us winning.

[Anti Federalist]

Excellent post.

I think what the Vegas shooters did was feed the beast where as I feel we need to be starving it.

I agree with Grigg, to an extent.

But I also feel there is something to be said for pushing the beast into the corner and making it act like the rabid savage it is, thus exposing it.

Now, that can backfire in a big way, when you misjudge how much tyranny the average idiot AmeriKan wants and will tolerate.

In fact, with the current crop of Boobus running around, I would say it is likely.

I still say it's better than this insufferable and interminable, daily, maternal, nanny state, "Chinese Water Torture" of soft tyranny we are exposed to every day: the daily dog killing, the loss of a freedom here and there, the SWAT raids, cop assault, the roadside blood draws, the "Compliance Shuffle" we are forced to do at airports, large gatherings, bus and train stations, or the usual political outrage.

Defecate or remove thyself from yon bedpan.

Or, as we discussed in another thread, stop being pansies about it and oppress me like a man, god damn it.

[presence]

Specific cops who have committed specific heinous crimes I can understand,

but run of the mill cops?

I don't think they're so evil that they deserve to die.


http://selfhelptechniques.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/9dcf7b106ae511e2a2c122000a1f9d4d_72.jpg

http://buzz.eewmagazine.com/storage/Choose-Friends-Wisely-title.jpg

[Christian Liberty]

Meh, of course the anti-Kokesh contingent will be quick to side with SPLC and throw him under the bus.

But consider this:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453741-As-long-as-we-re-playing-the-guilt-by-association-game&highlight=Chris+dorner

This is why I think compromise's waving dismissal is just as dangerous as Kokesh's statement. I think Kokesh is wrong but not crazy. And I'd hang with him over the SPLC any day.

[mad cow]

How about our military?They kill civilians.Would anybody here mind if these two heroes sneaked up behind younger,uniformed Glen Bradley,Ron Paul or Adam Kokesh himself and blew their brains out their foreheads?

[Christian Liberty]

I agree with Grigg, to an extent.

But I also feel there is something to be said for pushing the beast into the corner and making it act like the rabid savage it is, thus exposing it.

Now, that can backfire in a big way, when you misjudge how much tyranny the average idiot AmeriKan wants and will tolerate.

In fact, with the current crop of Boobus running around, I would say it is likely.

I still say it's better than this insufferable and interminable, daily, maternal, nanny state, "Chinese Water Torture" of soft tyranny we are exposed to every day: the daily dog killing, the loss of a freedom here and there, the SWAT raids, cop assault or political outrage.

I don't think the average person actually wants these kinds of abuses. I just think the average person has been brainwashed, whether with misinterpretations of Romans 13 or with secular slogans such as "Obey the law and you won't have to deal with cops" and "nothing to hide and nothing to fear". These brainwashings make boobus easy to manipulate. Its not that they actually want people to be exposed to invasive air security measures or that they actually want the government to spy on everyone or that they actually want people in foreign countries to be dead and so forth. Rather, boobus values safety MORE than he values freedom or ethics, which again, makes him easy to manipulate into accepting things that he believes will make him safe as "lesser evils."

[presence]

How about our military?They kill civilians.Would anybody here mind if these two heroes sneaked up behind younger,uniformed Glen Bradley,Ron Paul or Adam Kokesh himself and blew their brains out their foreheads?

...seems Kokesh is doing his best to distance himself from that crowd.


Kokesh concluded that the civil rights group may have confused his time as a “violent psychopath” working for the U.S. Marines

[Christian Liberty]

How about our military?They kill civilians.Would anybody here mind if these two heroes sneaked up behind younger,uniformed Glen Bradley,Ron Paul or Adam Kokesh himself and blew their brains out their foreheads?

Ron Paul was a medic. So he definitely didn't kill civilians. I am not saying that Glen Bradley or Adam Kokesh did either. Not every active duty soldier murders civilians (and not every active duty cop does either.)

I guess the only difference I can see is that the active duty soldier that manages to avoid a combat zone is probably doing nothing harmful, while the active duty cop still has to steal (writing tickets) and kidnap people (victimless crimes arrests.) Even still, I'd need something more than that before I'd be willing to say "execute."

[twomp]

So now Kokesh supports "pre-emptive" murder? Murder to save the rest of us from murderers? How is this situation any different from the foreign policy excuse of "pre-emptive" war? Got to get them before they get us right? Off to Syria, off to Iran, and off to Russia! Bombing
for peace!

It seems Kokesh's hatred for the government and it's policies have now caused him to become more like the very thing he claims he hates.

[torchbearer]

The article doesn't do the video justice.
I just watched the whole thing and can't find anything i disagree with.

[Christian Liberty]

The article doesn't do the video justice.
I just watched the whole thing and can't find anything i disagree with.

I only read the article. Maybe he clarifies in the video. All that said, I doubt that Matt Collins or compromise could even articulate what was wrong with what was said. I bet they just want to say "that's crazy" and expect everyone to believe them.

[torchbearer]

So now Kokesh supports "pre-emptive" murder? Murder to save the rest of us from murderers? How is this situation any different from the foreign policy excuse of "pre-emptive" war? Got to get them before they get us right? Off to Syria, off to Iran, and off to Russia! Bombing for peace!


I always thought super man should take out lex luther just because he knew he was about to hatch an evil plan. super man's weakness was his honor. he couldn't pound lex's head into the ground because lex wasn't doing anything physically aggressive towards him.

[torchbearer]

I only read the article. Maybe he clarifies in the video. All that said, I doubt that Matt Collins or compromise could even articulate what was wrong with what was said. I bet they just want to say "that's crazy" and expect everyone to believe them.


watch the video, i am interested in your perspective afterwards.

[acptulsa]

I'm not so worried about feeding the beast at this point... I'm also currently not certain of any strategy that I feel is likely to lead to us winning.

Has anyone else ever met the kind of person who says, 'I don't know how to rid my house of cockroaches, or even if it can be done. But there's no way I'm going to clean my kitchen up'?


So now Kokesh supports "pre-emptive" murder? Murder to save the rest of us from murderers? How is this situation any different from the foreign policy excuse of "pre-emptive" war? Got to get them before they get us right? Off to Syria, off to Iran, and off to Russia! Bombing for peace!

It seems Kokesh's hatred for the government and it's policies have now caused him to become more like the very thing he claims he hates.

Um, and how does that make him different now from when he was a Marine?

Different target, same loose cannon.

[NewRightLibertarian]

The article doesn't do the video justice.
I just watched the whole thing and can't find anything i disagree with.

Libertarian Republic is Austin Petersen's 'news' website. He never misses an opportunity to slander any libertarian who doesn't worship the troops and cops to play kiss ass with the Republican Party leadership. Although I have some problems with Kokesh, Petersen's a real piece of worthless shit and a wart on the ass of the liberty movement.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

I used to like Kokesh, until he chickened out on the gun march, and now this.

[69360]

SPLC is a hate group, but murdering cops is not the answer.

[torchbearer]

Libertarian Republic is Austin Petersen's 'news' website. He never misses an opportunity to slander any libertarian who doesn't worship the troops and cops to play kiss ass with the Republican Party leadership. Although I have some problems with Kokesh, Petersen's a real piece of worthless shit and a wart on the ass of the liberty movement.


Did not know that.
Thanks for the info.

[ChristianAnarchist]

I always thought super man should take out lex luther just because he knew he was about to hatch an evil plan. super man's weakness was his honor. he couldn't pound lex's head into the ground because lex wasn't doing anything physically aggressive towards him.

Not only that, Superman likes pink...

[torchbearer]

Not only that, Superman likes pink...

I think that is a Krypton thing... I think his environment growing up made him that way. I could be wrong. He is an alien after-all. An ILLEGAL ALIEN!

[presence]

Yup, he's lost it.


And some around here were confused on WHY many figures in the movement distanced themselves from him :rolleyes:

2 individuals that read sexy media twisted headlines and didn't take the time to listen to what Adam actually said before posting.

here's a link again in case you missed it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UDFOpqqW9M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UDFOpqqW9M)

[pcosmar]

SPLC is a hate group, but murdering cops is not the answer.

Yup,, and I listened to some of the shooters videos,, as much as I could stand.

He was mostly correct in his observations,, but wrong on his tactics.

But I suppose that is to be expected,, The unstable with be the first to react.

Though I am not convinced we know the whole story.

[robert9712000]

Your looking at it wrong. While some may be guilty of injustices, the majority are just mindless minions following orders. While they may be ignorant followers, they are not the Evil ones. The ones who are guilty of high crimes, are the ones in leadership, who push to oppress the people for their gain, by manipulating those in position of local authority to do their bidding.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

2 individuals that read sexy headlines and didn't take the time to listen to what Adam actually said before posting.

here's a link again in case you missed it:




"Patriotism is Proof the Patriot isn't Free"

wow you're right, it was completely taken out of context

[Christian Liberty]

watch the video, i am interested in your perspective afterwards.I'm still listening, about halfway through, but so far it seems to be not as bad as what the OP indicates. He's definitely sane and rational. I mostly agree with what he's saying.

[anaconda]

Police as murderers is a discussion worth having. If it takes some provocative rhetoric, so be it.

[NewRightLibertarian]

wow you're right, it was completely taken out of context

That is what Petersen is all about: lying and demogauging and distorting real libertarians on behalf of the war party. This piece of shit was on Facebook defending the murder of children in the name of Israel and decrying those stupid libertarians who just don't understand how necessary it is for the state to murder scores of innocents. Fuck this guy.

[presence]

Police as murderers is a discussion worth having. If it takes some provocative rhetoric, so be it.


You might enjoy "Independence Thesis"

The Independence Thesis: When
Individual and Social Epistemology
Diverge*
Conor Mayo-Wilson, Kevin J. S. Zollman, and David
Danks†‡




Several philosophers of science have argued that epistemically rational individuals
might form epistemically irrational groups and that, conversely, rational groups might
be composed of irrational individuals. We call the conjunction of these two claims the
Independence Thesis, as they entail that methodological prescriptions for scientific
communities and those for individual scientists are logically independent. We defend
the inconsistency thesis by characterizing four criteria for epistemic rationality and
then proving that, under said criteria, individuals will be judged rational when groups
are not and vice versa. We then explain the implications of our results for descriptive
history of science and normative epistemology.




pdf
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mayowilson.org%2FPapers%2FInd ependence_Thesis.pdf&ei=ckSaU_PyO8ibyASFnoDgBw&usg=AFQjCNFczwBkXIzfQ8kbViJrImlfYwSNMA&bvm=bv.68911936,d.aWw

[jkr]

gee
i
dont
know...

...lets ask this guy:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NaEYg86RJII/TECccH0OddI/AAAAAAAAARs/fpNlLymI0zo/s1600/oscar_grant_shooting.png

OOPS!
cant really talk there...

http://breakingbrown.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/oscar-grant.jpg

ok, so Oscar...

Oscar!

Oscar ?

oh
HES FUCKING DEAD

NVM

[Snew]

I haven't watched the video yet, but there's no doubt in my mind that Petersen twisted Kokesh's words, at least a little bit. Par for the course; he's one of those "libertarians" cozying up to Republicans.

That said, I don't think any rational, non-violent person would want to be associated with the two Las Vegas killers. I mean... seriously?

[Cap]

Other than creating dissension on the forums, was there another point to posting said article here?

[Snew]

Other than creating dissension on the forums, was there another point to posting said article here?

Probably not. This is a compromise thread after all ;)

[donnay]

With a moniker like "Compromise" what would you expect?

[NewRightLibertarian]

Other than creating dissension on the forums, was there another point to posting said article here?

Some forum members are always bending over backwards to do the SPLC's work for them

[Matt Collins]

not sure i ever heard Ron say anything about Adam.



http://www.dailypaul.com/250939/adam-kokesh-officially-not-welcome-sun-dome

[Matt Collins]

2 individuals that read sexy media twisted headlines and didn't take the time to listen to what Adam actually said before posting.This is politics which means perception is reality.

[Cap]

An agent provocateur (French for "inciting agent") is an undercover agent who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or rash act or falsely implicate them in partaking in an illegal act. An agent provocateur may be employed by the police or other entity to discredit or harm another group (e.g., peaceful protest or demonstration) by provoking them to commit an act - thus, undermining the protest or demonstration as whole.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

[presence]

This is politics which means perception is reality.


This is the liberty movement.

We read the book before we judge the cover.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-believe-me-the-intellectual-revolution-is-going-on-and-that-has-to-come-first-before-you-see-the-ron-paul-142914.jpg

[Matt Collins]

This is the liberty movement.

We read the book before we judge the cover.

Given the actions and statements of some around here about Rand, I would say that is not as true as we would like it to be.

But regardless, the voting population decides based upon perception, so why give the opposition ammo to defeat us?

[osan]

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/adam-kokesh-vegas-killers-victims-murdering-cops-saves-lives-video/#.U5obRY1dXk1

Yup, he's lost it.

Perhaps, but could he be controlled opposition?

[osan]

What would you say if somebody killed some German Concentration Camp officers back in WWII when they were on their lunch break?


Your point is well taken, but those two appear to have chosen those cops randomly. Few despise police as do I, but random targeting of those of whom you have no evidence of their having committed a specific crime is exactly that which so many of us hold against them. How are we any better if we randomly murder those who may in fact hold no guilt worthy of death? While I may not be particularly broken up by the demise of Vegas cops, particularly in light of some of the things I've seen them do, Kokesh was essentially advocating for "pre-crime", and that is looney-tunes and precisely the sort of thing against which many of us here speak out and fear may one day become actual practice, if it has not already in some cases.

This leads me to wonder how a young man who, going back only two years, seemed reasonable and rational and now appears to be slipping significantly into bizarro mode. Note how it occurred after his conviction, of which I only learned as I read the OP and why I ask whether he may now be controlled opposition. They had him by the balls and little doubt there are those in positions of non-trivial power who would like to see him silenced. Perhaps he was offered a deal he could not refuse?

Now, here I am speaking from brute ignorance so please bear with me and correct me where I am off the rails, but how does one get convicted of such a "crime" and not end up in a rape cage for at least 2 years? If he escaped this, one should ask by what miracle. Perhaps he was offered his freedom in exchange for moving publicly into apparently wild insanity as one of the higher profile gun rights advocates in order to stain the image of all such persons? Just speculating, but my gut reaction is that something seems a little off about being convicted of possession of a shotgun in DC and not ending up in prison for at least a little while. Anyone?

[Working Poor]

I am disappointed that Adam has gone so far with his antics. I had hoped that he would garner a more mainstream appeal. I feel like he is trying to get some some shuffles going. I don't like what he is doing. I had hoped he was smarter.

[Czolgosz]

Take heed government, the strongly worded Lettertarians are coming for you.

[Working Poor]

I am disappointed that Adam has gone so far with his antics. I had hoped that he would garner a more mainstream appeal. I feel like he is trying to get some some shuffles going. I don't like what he is doing. I had hoped he was smarter.

[Christian Liberty]

I haven't watched the video yet, but there's no doubt in my mind that Petersen twisted Kokesh's words, at least a little bit. Par for the course; he's one of those "libertarians" cozying up to Republicans.

That said, I don't think any rational, non-violent person would want to be associated with the two Las Vegas killers. I mean... seriously?


http://www.dailypaul.com/250939/adam-kokesh-officially-not-welcome-sun-dome


An agent provocateur (French for "inciting agent") is an undercover agent who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or rash act or falsely implicate them in partaking in an illegal act. An agent provocateur may be employed by the police or other entity to discredit or harm another group (e.g., peaceful protest or demonstration) by provoking them to commit an act - thus, undermining the protest or demonstration as whole.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur


Given the actions and statements of some around here about Rand, I would say that is not as true as we would like it to be.

But regardless, the voting population decides based upon perception, so why give the opposition ammo to defeat us?


Perhaps, but could he be controlled opposition?


Your point is well taken, but those two appear to have chosen those cops randomly. Few despise police as do I, but random targeting of those of whom you have no evidence of their having committed a specific crime. While I may not be particularly broken up by the demise of Vegas cops, particularly in light of some of the things I've seen them do, Kokesh was essentially advocating for "pre-crime", and that is looney-tunes and precisely the sort of thing against which many of us here speak out and fear may one day become actual practice, if it has not already in some cases.

This leads me to wonder how a young man who, going back only two years, seemed reasonable and rational and now appears to be slipping significantly into bizarro mode. Note how it occurred after his conviction, of which I only learned as I read the OP and why I ask whether he may now be controlled opposition. They had him by the balls and little doubt there are those in positions of non-trivial power who would like to see him silenced. Perhaps he was offered a deal he could not refuse?

Now, here I am speaking from brute ignorance so please bear with me and correct me where I am off the rails, but how does one get convicted of such a "crime" and not end up in a rape cage for at least 2 years? If he escaped this, one should ask by what miracle. Perhaps he was offered his freedom in exchange for moving publicly into apparently wild insanity as one of the higher profile gun rights advocates in order to stain the image of all such persons? Just speculating, but my gut reaction is that something seems a little off about being convicted of possession of a shotgun in DC and not ending up in prison for at least a little while. Anyone?


I am disappointed that Adam has gone so far with his antics. I had hoped that he would garner a more mainstream appeal. I feel like he is trying to get some some shuffles going. I don't like what he is doing. I had hoped he was smarter.

All of you need to watch the video. I watched it and the article is a misrepresentation.

Adam was NOT saying that the shooters were victims in the particular encounter that recently occurred (the shooting of two cops.)

It could be argued that Adam flirted with the idea that the shooting could potentially have been justified under the NAP, on the grounds that cops violate the NAP on a daily basis (similar to Cantwell's argument.) However, Kokesh clearly said that the actions taken by these two people were "stupid" and "ridiculous." He also wasn't happy that it happened, and reiterated that he has been non-violent in his own interactions with police and that he recommends that you do the same.

Kokesh was saying that these people are victims of the American Police State and that they were driven to the point of insanity by it, which was their motivation for doing what they did. He wasn't defending it.

Of course, the liars that want to get elected more than they care about principle don't care about that.

With regards to Collins' link, I don't know if that particular bit was something Ron himself ordered or not. But if Ron actually suggested people call the police in order to prevent Kokesh from showing up at a rally, my respect for Ron is going to drop a little.

[Snew]

All of you need to watch the video. I watched it and the article is a misrepresentation.

Adam was NOT saying that the shooters were victims in the particular encounter that recently occurred (the shooting of two cops.)

It could be argued that Adam flirted with the idea that the shooting could potentially have been justified under the NAP, on the grounds that cops violate the NAP on a daily basis (similar to Cantwell's argument.) However, Kokesh clearly said that the actions taken by these two people were "stupid" and "ridiculous." He also wasn't happy that it happened, and reiterated that he has been non-violent in his own interactions with police and that he recommends that you do the same.

Kokesh was saying that these people are victims of the American Police State and that they were driven to the point of insanity by it, which was their motivation for doing what they did. He wasn't defending it.

Alright, good to hear :cool:

[Anti Federalist]

This is politics which means perception is reality.

Then you change the perception which is illuminating the false reality.

[Anti Federalist]

With regards to Collins' link, I don't know if that particular bit was something Ron himself ordered or not. But if Ron actually suggested people call the police in order to prevent Kokesh from showing up at a rally, my respect for Ron is going to drop a little.

That was Jesse Benton and The Suits.

This has been gone over in great detail on here, in numerous threads.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?387315-what-s-the-scoop-on-Kokesh

[rp08orbust]

I haven't read the article or watched the video (or even read the whole thread for that matter), but I will say that I think Adam's sound bite could be defensible according to the strictest ethics of individual liberty.

First of all, the case could easily be made that all levels of American government are at war with their subjects (simply read any thread started by Anti Federalist for supporting evidence). Individualist ethics, while incompatible with state-conducted warfare, does not preclude participation in a voluntary war of defense. There would be nothing unethical, for example, about participating in armed resistance against the Nazis.

Now in such armed resistance, would one need to be certain that every single Nazi one fired at had already committed a capital offense (if one believes in capital punishment), or be in the act of firing at you first? Of course not. Anyone in Nazi uniform would be fair game for shooting on sight. By donning the Nazi uniform, a person has declared themselves a combatant in a war upon you and that they are willing, if given the orders, to kill you. We can complicate the issue slightly by raising the possibility that a person has been forced into a uniform against their will, but this is not the case in the current context.

Likewise, anyone who puts on a government uniform associated with combat or the application of coercive force is declaring themselves, whether intentionally or not, a combatant against you, even if, sadly, they are a "good cop" who has somehow managed to never initiate force against anyone and still keep their job.

[WM_in_MO]

I agree with Grigg, to an extent.

But I also feel there is something to be said for pushing the beast into the corner and making it act like the rabid savage it is, thus exposing it.

Now, that can backfire in a big way, when you misjudge how much tyranny the average idiot AmeriKan wants and will tolerate.

In fact, with the current crop of Boobus running around, I would say it is likely.

I still say it's better than this insufferable and interminable, daily, maternal, nanny state, "Chinese Water Torture" of soft tyranny we are exposed to every day: the daily dog killing, the loss of a freedom here and there, the SWAT raids, cop assault, the roadside blood draws, the "Compliance Shuffle" we are forced to do at airports, large gatherings, bus and train stations, or the usual political outrage.

Defecate or remove thyself from yon bedpan.

Or, as we discussed in another thread, stop being pansies about it and oppress me like a man, god damn it.

Same here. Lets get the party started while I can still participate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwTDfdck7I

[TruckinMike]

How about our military?They kill civilians.Would anybody here mind if these two heroes sneaked up behind younger,uniformed Glen Bradley,Ron Paul or Adam Kokesh himself and blew their brains out their foreheads?Would anybody here mind if these two heroes sneaked up behind younger,uniformed Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, or Mao Tse Tung himself and blew their brains out their foreheads?

tit-for-tat...now try making a real argument.

[JK/SEA]

So Ron Paul NEVER came out publicly disparaging Adam Kokesh.

Thanks for clearing that up Matt.

[erowe1]

Man alive. I really regret supporting him.

[JK/SEA]

Man alive. I really regret supporting him.

i don't, and still do.

[Christian Liberty]

I haven't read the article or watched the video (or even read the whole thread for that matter), but I will say that I think Adam's sound bite could be defensible according to the strictest ethics of individual liberty.

First of all, the case could easily be made that all levels of American government are at war with their subjects (simply read any thread started by Anti Federalist for supporting evidence). Individualist ethics, while incompatible with state-conducted warfare, does not preclude participation in a voluntary war of defense. There would be nothing unethical, for example, about participating in armed resistance against the Nazis.

Now in such armed resistance, would one need to be certain that every single Nazi one fired at had already committed a capital offense (if one believes in capital punishment), or be in the act of firing at you first? Of course not. Anyone in Nazi uniform would be fair game for shooting on sight. By donning the Nazi uniform, a person has declared themselves a combatant in a war upon you and that they are willing, if given the orders, to kill you. We can complicate the issue slightly by raising the possibility that a person has been forced into a uniform against their will, but this is not the case in the current context.

Likewise, anyone who puts on a government uniform associated with combat or the application of coercive force is declaring themselves, whether intentionally or not, a combatant against you, even if, sadly, they are a "good cop" who has somehow managed to never initiate force against anyone and still keep their job.

This is an interesting argument. I'm not sure the US is quite comparable to the Nazis yet though. I mean, you can still compare them to the Nazis and get away with it. Now, that's not to say that we're still in any sense "free" but I don't know that we're Nazi Germany yet either. And I don't know how bad our government would have to get before I'd be comfortable with that type of total war against police (and yes, I know cops as a collective group started that war, but I think you guys know what I'm talking about.)

Even still, I think this argument is actually erroneous according to the strictest application of the NAP, and would probably actually work better under less strict applications of the NAP. I'm not sure that shooting Nazis at random would even be justified under the strictest application of the NAP. I could justify it (after all, they are agreeing to kill and die for a wicked regime, and the likelihood is well beyond a reasonable doubt that they are going to follow through with it\... it could be argued that putting on the uniform is a threat to violate the NAP) but I don't think it fits with the strictest application of the NAP.

For what its worth, I think politicians are evil in general, but if somebody used that as an excuse to shoot Ron Paul, we wouldn't justify that. And rightly not. I somehow doubt that 1 in 435 cops have the moral character of Ron Paul, but still.

Meh, I'm still a little uncomfortable with this. I'm open to being persuaded. (BTW: I don't have a problem with what Adam actually said. I have a little more of a problem with what the OP acts like he said, that he didn't actually say.)


Man alive. I really regret supporting him.

What does this mean? What are you trying to say here?

[Matt Collins]

Then you change the perception which is illuminating the false reality.
That is not how you win an election, unless you are doing so about your opposition.

[Matt Collins]

i don't, and still do.
That says quite a bit about your (lack of) judgement. :(

[A Son of Liberty]

That is not how you win an election, unless you are doing so about your opposition.

4 years. 8 if you are lucky. 12 if you have a notably positive effect on the economy... which you won't, in the short term.

Nothing changes until Americans generally understand and accept some middling concept of individual liberty.

Playing politics is fine, but it is a very, very, VERY distant second to educational efforts.

[ZENemy]

Your looking at it wrong. While some may be guilty of injustices, the majority are just mindless minions following orders. While they may be ignorant followers, they are not the Evil ones. The ones who are guilty of high crimes, are the ones in leadership, who push to oppress the people for their gain, by manipulating those in position of local authority to do their bidding.

But they can be activated to do evil at the drop of a dime. Your second sentence guarantees this.

[Christian Liberty]

4 years. 8 if you are lucky. 12 if you have a notably positive effect on the economy... which you won't, in the short term.

Nothing changes until Americans generally understand and accept some middling concept of individual liberty.

Playing politics is fine, but it is a very, very, VERY distant second to educational efforts.

Good to see you again!:) And very true. +rep.

I could understand Rand Paul not wanting to touch something like this with a 20 foot pole. Heck, I could see Ron Paul not wanting to touch this sort of thing with a 20 foot pole. The primary goal of a politician is to change policy (I'm talking about liberty minded politicians here, obviously the rest of them just want to control us), in a pro-liberty direction. Blaming the State's hired thugs really just isn't in the job description of a politician. The politician's goal is to change policy so those people are less harmful.

But, I'm not Rand Paul, and I'm not Ron Paul. I'm a regular guy who does not very much like thugs in blue costumes deifying themselves and putting themselves above the moral laws and logical laws that govern every person. Now, I'm not saying that all cops KNOWINGLY do this, which is why I'm hesitant about saying they deserve to die. I actually sort of feel bad for those cops who are family men who think they are just keeping their communities safe. Much like I sort of feel bad for soldiers who leave families behind because they think they are "fighting for our freedoms." The scumbags who lie to them and tell them that's what they're doing are exactly that.... scumbags. The politicians are the main culprits, but regular people just like us except that they continue to feed and propagate the lie are responsible as well. And wanting to win at politics is no excuse for feeding the lie.

Mind you, I don't necessarily have a problem with condemning the statements in the OP (which Kokesh didn't actually say, unfortunately for those who want to feed him to the lions:rolleyes:). I'm not saying you have to be OK with the idea of killing cops. I'm not comfortable with it either. But we have to be honest with ourselves and understand WHY we disagree with those arguments when we choose to disagree with them. None of this "this is radical so I'm just going to shut down."

Mind you, I wouldn't even have this conversation in real life. I wouldn't have it in mixed company. I wouldn't blame anyone for dodging the subject in mixed company. But I think we can discuss it among libertarians. And if some non-libertarian reads it here, they will have enough context to know what we are talking about and how we are defending it if they actually pay attention. And if they don't, they weren't going to convert anyway. The SPLC people are a good example. They don't listen because their agenda is about force. I'm not interesting in convincing their kind, just shaming and shocking them as much as possible.

[Christian Liberty]

But they can be activated to do evil at the drop of a dime. Your second sentence guarantees this.

While I don't think ignorance is an excuse, it is a mitigating factor. While I understand that some libertarian theorists would disagree with this, there's a reason manslaughter is dealt with differently than murder, the intent is different.

Mind you, intent isn't a blanket excuse either. Manslaughter is still a crime. The penalty is just less.

And I think there's a parallel here. Most cops do evil but don't know it. Which isn't an excuse, but makes them not quite as bad as people who knowingly decide to do evil.

[Matt Collins]

4 years. 8 if you are lucky. 12 if you have a notably positive effect on the economy... which you won't, in the short term.

Nothing changes until Americans generally understand and accept some middling concept of individual liberty.

Playing politics is fine, but it is a very, very, VERY distant second to educational efforts.
You have that backwards.... you don't need to "educate" anyone in order to win an election. All you have to do is build a list, raise money, and mobilize voters. Politics is very mechanical. You don't think that all of the sudden the voters in Cantor's district are now followers of the Austrian school do you? You don't think that voters in Ron's district were all libertarians do you?

Getting legislation passed / killed is the same thing. Build a list, raise money, mobilize people who care about that issue.

Trying to change people's worldview is the long road around the mountain and doesn't work most of the time anyway.

[Vanguard101]

He was never on our side to begin with. Dude is crazy

[ZENemy]

While I don't think ignorance is an excuse, it is a mitigating factor. While I understand that some libertarian theorists would disagree with this, there's a reason manslaughter is dealt with differently than murder, the intent is different.

Mind you, intent isn't a blanket excuse either. Manslaughter is still a crime. The penalty is just less.

And I think there's a parallel here. Most cops do evil but don't know it. Which isn't an excuse, but makes them not quite as bad as people who knowingly decide to do evil.

Lay down with dogs; wake up with fleas.

[ZENemy]

You have that backwards.... you don't need to "educate" anyone in order to win an election. All you have to do is build a list, raise money, and mobilize voters. Politics is very mechanical. You don't think that all of the sudden the voters in Cantor's district are now followers of the Austrian school do you? You don't think that voters in Ron's district were all libertarians do you?

Getting legislation passed / killed is the same thing. Build a list, raise money, mobilize people who care about that issue.

Trying to change people's worldview is the long road around the mountain and doesn't work most of the time anyway.

Lol, what?


New study finds US to be ruled by oligarchic elite
Political scientists show that average American has “near-zero” influence on policy outcomes, but their groundbreaking study is not without problems.


Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.



Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.


Democracy is a fantasy.
Plutocracy is the reality.

[Christian Liberty]

You have that backwards.... you don't need to "educate" anyone in order to win an election. All you have to do is build a list, raise money, and mobilize voters. Politics is very mechanical. You don't think that all of the sudden the voters in Cantor's district are now followers of the Austrian school do you? You don't think that voters in Ron's district were all libertarians do you?

Getting legislation passed / killed is the same thing. Build a list, raise money, mobilize people who care about that issue.

Trying to change people's worldview is the long road around the mountain and doesn't work most of the time anyway.

Not all of us are obsessed with elections.

I used to be a neocon. I had potential, but nonetheless I was an evil, disgusting statist. Everybody starts that way, I guess. I'm glad somebody (multiple people, actually) took the time to expose the errors I had picked up from the GOP rather than just trying to manipulate me into voting their way.


He was never on our side to begin with. Dude is crazy

Dude didn't say crazy thing he's being accused of saying. Watch video.

Lay down with dogs; wake up with fleas.

I don't get it.

[Christian Liberty]

Feminists are happy when I tell them that I treat all women like queens. The smiles soon turn to frowns when I tell them that I am an anarchist and don't care for queens.

I know this is off topic, but I love this quote. Who came up with it?

[ZENemy]

I know this is off topic, but I love this quote. Who came up with it?

All good, I love that quote too, I got it from an Anarchist forum when they were berating feminist. It was just a user who gave me permission to use it.

[erowe1]

What does this mean? What are you trying to say here?

I donated money to his congressional run and regret it.

[Matt Collins]

Political scientists show that average American has “near-zero” influence on policy outcomes, I would agree with this because most people don't flex their political muscles.

Most people can't even name their Senators much less their Congressman or state legislators.

If people actually got active in the process, then YES, they would have influence on policy outcomes. Look at how Common Core is being rejected in many states across the country. That's a perfect example of people getting involved on an issue to stop bad government.

[Christian Liberty]

I donated money to his congressional run and regret it.

Because of this? Did you actually watch the video? I don't really see what was wrong with what he actually said. The OP really takes him out of context.

What was wrong with what he actually said?

[Christian Liberty]

All good, I love that quote too, I got it from an Anarchist forum when they were berating feminist. It was just a user who gave me permission to use it.

lol! +rep for an awesome quote.

[JK/SEA]

That says quite a bit about your (lack of) judgement. :(

i was a STATE DELEGATE FOR RON PAUL IN 2008, and almost again in 2012.....

whats that make you motherfucker?

[A Son of Liberty]

You have that backwards.... you don't need to "educate" anyone in order to win an election. All you have to do is build a list, raise money, and mobilize voters. Politics is very mechanical.

That's all you have to do, huh? What's all the fuss been about, then? The wars, the encroachments upon our liberty, the police state, the bureaucratic machine that is entangling humanity with a million barbed tentacles...

For someone who presents himself as so "in the know", your naivete is staggering.

You're facing leviathan, quite literally. The bureaucratic machine of the US government alone - to say nothing about states, counties, and municipalities - reaches into every aspect of every persons life over which it claims authority, and then some. Indeed, it is the very charade of electoral politics which allows them to continue their authoritarian regime unhindered: as long as the hope exists that elections will change things, nothing will ever change. And so, very few people see any problem with the structure of the state; only the management thereof... again, as we have seen decade after decade, changing the management changes nothing.

One thing that crackpot Gerald Celente is right about is that when people have nothing left to lose, they lose it. Then we'll see meaningful change. But you better hope that when they lose it, they lose it in the right direction. Because if they're nothing more than the dumb animals you take them to be and from whom the only thing you've ever expected was a vote for some particular politician of the state, they will turn immediately to the state for a solution... and I don't think I have to describe for you exactly what that means.

So go ahead and play politics, but make sure you are changing the minds of the people around you. If you don't, when the time comes, they will kill you without thinking twice about it. Because the right politician told them that is "the solution".

[mczerone]

You have that backwards.... you don't need to "educate" anyone in order to win an election. All you have to do is build a list, raise money, and mobilize voters. Politics is very mechanical. You don't think that all of the sudden the voters in Cantor's district are now followers of the Austrian school do you? You don't think that voters in Ron's district were all libertarians do you?

Getting legislation passed / killed is the same thing. Build a list, raise money, mobilize people who care about that issue.

Trying to change people's worldview is the long road around the mountain and doesn't work most of the time anyway.

Ah, the "they're all idiots" strategy. Very nice.

[Cap]

i was a STATE DELEGATE FOR RON PAUL IN 2008, and almost again in 2012.....

whats that make you motherfucker?Just some guy wearing a pinky ring.

[Matt Collins]

That's all you have to do, huh? What's all the fuss been about, then? The wars, the encroachments upon our liberty, the police state, the bureaucratic machine that is entangling humanity with a million barbed tentacles...

For someone who presents himself as so "in the know", your naivete is staggering.

You're facing leviathan, quite literally. The bureaucratic machine of the US government alone - to say nothing about states, counties, and municipalities - reaches into every aspect of every persons life over which it claims authority, and then some. Indeed, it is the very charade of electoral politics which allows them to continue their authoritarian regime unhindered: as long as the hope exists that elections will change things, nothing will ever change. And so, very few people see any problem with the structure of the state; only the management thereof... again, as we have seen decade after decade, changing the management changes nothing.

One thing that crackpot Gerald Celente is right about is that when people have nothing left to lose, they lose it. Then we'll see meaningful change. But you better hope that when they lose it, they lose it in the right direction. Because if they're nothing more than the dumb animals you take them to be and from whom the only thing you've ever expected was a vote for some particular politician of the state, they will turn immediately to the state for a solution... and I don't think I have to describe for you exactly what that means.

So go ahead and play politics, but make sure you are changing the minds of the people around you. If you don't, when the time comes, they will kill you without thinking twice about it. Because the right politician told them that is "the solution".
How many bills have you ever gotten killed? How many pro-liberty bills have you ever gotten passed? How many pro-liberty candidates have you gotten elected? How many statists have you gotten thrown out of office?

[A Son of Liberty]

How many bills have you ever gotten killed? How many pro-liberty bills have you ever gotten passed? How many pro-liberty candidates have you gotten elected? How many statists have you gotten thrown out of office?

Are you retarded or drunk?

[JK/SEA]

How many bills have you ever gotten killed? How many pro-liberty bills have you ever gotten passed? How many pro-liberty candidates have you gotten elected? How many statists have you gotten thrown out of office?

geeezus, someone please ban this guy...

[Matt Collins]

Are you retarded or drunk?
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

[A Son of Liberty]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

No, that wasn't a personal attack. It was a serious question, based on your response to my post.

[Anti Federalist]

How many bills have you ever gotten killed? How many pro-liberty bills have you ever gotten passed? How many pro-liberty candidates have you gotten elected? How many statists have you gotten thrown out of office?

More than you would believe. I've been in this "fight" since, probably, before you were born.

And I still have no doubt about the political process ultimately being a "dead end" in the long run.

[mczerone]

No, that wasn't a personal attack. It was a serious question, based on your response to my post.

Nor is pointing out the existence of a logical fallacy a rebuttal of your question.

The fallacy fallacy, I think. (Where something true is stated with a logical fallacy, and someone calls it false for using the fallacy)

[Anti Federalist]

Nor is pointing out the existence of a logical fallacy a rebuttal of your question.

The fallacy fallacy, I think. (Where something true is stated with a logical fallacy, and someone calls it false for using the fallacy)

D'Oh...ouch.

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Your+Mind+Blown.+Tim+and+Eric+Awesome+Show_d781d1_ 3744116.gif

[Christian Liberty]

How many bills have you ever gotten killed? How many pro-liberty bills have you ever gotten passed? How many pro-liberty candidates have you gotten elected? How many statists have you gotten thrown out of office?

How many statists have you put into office, Matt?

I bet you have no idea what a real anti-statist is. Heck, much as I hate to say it, even Ron Paul isn't truly an anti-statist (unlike you, I think Ron is aware of it.) An anti-statist is opposed to the State in any form that it takes.


More than you would believe. I've been in this "fight" since, probably, before you were born.

And I still have no doubt about the political process ultimately being a "dead end" in the long run.

So, what is the solution?

[Christian Liberty]

Ah, the "they're all idiots" strategy. Very nice.

I don't know how to get around it. Its true isn't it? The masses always vote for more government power. Why? Stupid and evil are the only two possible answers.

I also think Matt is in the "all idiots" camp. He thinks he's an exception to it, but he is not. He can't even intellectually articulate why Kokesh is wrong on principle.

[amy31416]

Your point is well taken, but those two appear to have chosen those cops randomly. Few despise police as do I, but random targeting of those of whom you have no evidence of their having committed a specific crime is exactly that which so many of us hold against them. How are we any better if we randomly murder those who may in fact hold no guilt worthy of death? While I may not be particularly broken up by the demise of Vegas cops, particularly in light of some of the things I've seen them do, Kokesh was essentially advocating for "pre-crime", and that is looney-tunes and precisely the sort of thing against which many of us here speak out and fear may one day become actual practice, if it has not already in some cases.

This leads me to wonder how a young man who, going back only two years, seemed reasonable and rational and now appears to be slipping significantly into bizarro mode. Note how it occurred after his conviction, of which I only learned as I read the OP and why I ask whether he may now be controlled opposition. They had him by the balls and little doubt there are those in positions of non-trivial power who would like to see him silenced. Perhaps he was offered a deal he could not refuse?

Now, here I am speaking from brute ignorance so please bear with me and correct me where I am off the rails, but how does one get convicted of such a "crime" and not end up in a rape cage for at least 2 years? If he escaped this, one should ask by what miracle. Perhaps he was offered his freedom in exchange for moving publicly into apparently wild insanity as one of the higher profile gun rights advocates in order to stain the image of all such persons? Just speculating, but my gut reaction is that something seems a little off about being convicted of possession of a shotgun in DC and not ending up in prison for at least a little while. Anyone?

I think you're spot-on. He showed signs of being a bit nutty even at first, but this is contrived and incredibly obvious that he's trying to push other people to do atrocious things.

I dislike him even more than Matt Collins, because he's got a few more people fooled and is trying to push them toward random violence. Nothing pisses me off more than someone who promotes such a thing. It's no better than what the cops do in their "drug" war.

Kokesh can go fuck himself.

[Anti Federalist]

So, what is the solution?

Popular revolution, secession and re-setting the clock to zero.

Thus it has always been, for all of mankind's history.

[Christian Liberty]

I think you're spot-on. He showed signs of being a bit nutty even at first, but this is contrived and incredibly obvious that he's trying to push other people to do atrocious things.

I dislike him even more than Matt Collins, because he's got a few more people fooled and is trying to push them toward random violence. Nothing pisses me off more than someone who promotes such a thing. It's no better than what the cops do in their "drug" war.

Kokesh can go fuck himself.

Kokesh did not say what he is being accused of saying.

That reminds me, I need to neg rep Collins for this cold faced lie. I'm going to report it as well. He should be banned because he is a fake that does not support liberty and is here for the sole purpose of trying to turn people away from actually supporting liberty.

[amy31416]

That says quite a bit about your (lack of) judgement. :(

You're in the same category as Kokesh. You use this movement for simple, personal gain and an attempt at having some semblance of power over other people.

[JK/SEA]

so people aren't allowed to show any passion, or express themselves in ways that evoke other people to stop and think...kinda like a slap to the face, because you're not aware of the extreme danger in our midst....ok Adam, go fuck yourself, i wanna stay asleep...

Yes, there is a danger of waking up latent psychotic disorders, but is that Adams fault....?

[Christian Liberty]

Popular revolution, secession and re-setting the clock to zero.

Thus it has always been been, for all of mankind's history.

What does re-setting the clock to zero mean?

There's a difference between revolution and secession, BTW. Secession means taking a block of land and trying to separate oneself from a government that claims to control it, while revolution means trying to remove the government from existence.

Which are you advocating?

Kokesh did not say what he is being accused of saying.

That reminds me, I need to neg rep Collins for this cold faced lie. I'm going to report it as well. He should be banned because he is a fake that does not support liberty and is here for the sole purpose of trying to turn people away from actually supporting liberty.

BTW: I just remembered it was compromise, not Collins, who wrote the lie that is the OP. I neg repped him and reported him.

[erowe1]

I must be out of the loop.

Are there people in this thread defending the position that it's justifiable to murder someone merely on account of their being a cop?

Tell me that's not what anybody's saying here, please.

[Christian Liberty]

You're in the same category as Kokesh. You use this movement for simple, personal gain and an attempt at having some semblance of power over other people.
When has Kokesh done any of those things? He's an anti-statist and a voluntarist. I don't agree with every detail either, but I do not see how he is doing what you say he's doing.

Matt Collins, on the other hand... well, everyone knows that's what he's doing;)

[amy31416]

How many bills have you ever gotten killed? How many pro-liberty bills have you ever gotten passed? How many pro-liberty candidates have you gotten elected? How many statists have you gotten thrown out of office?

How many have you?

This should be good. :D

[brandon]

Hopefully he can get some mental health treatment while he's in prison. Guy has really lost it.

[Christian Liberty]

I must be out of the loop.

Are there people in this thread defending the position that it's justifiable to murder someone merely on account of their being a cop?

Tell me that's not what anybody's saying here, please.

I don't think so. Chris Cantwell has pretty much said that, but he's the only one. His argument was essentially that cops are NAP violators simply by putting on the uniform because by doing so they are threatening violence against other people. I don't think his argument works, and I don't think anyone else here does either. For what its worth, I'm not sure Cantwell is any more wrong than people who say that its OK to use aggressive violence just because you are a cop. They're equally wrong in opposite directions.

Listen to the actual video. There's no way Kokesh is actually saying that its OK to kill cops. He defends non-violence multiple times in the video. When Kokesh calls the Miller's "victims" he is saying that the Police State is what drove them to the madness of killing cops. That doesn't justify it anymore than talking about blowback justifies terrorism.

The guy who wrote the article is a moron, compromise is a moron, and I've learned to think twice before trusting ANYTHING that compromise or Matt Collins write. That's about it.

[dannno]

I think you're spot-on. He showed signs of being a bit nutty even at first, but this is contrived and incredibly obvious that he's trying to push other people to do atrocious things.

I dislike him even more than Matt Collins, because he's got a few more people fooled and is trying to push them toward random violence. Nothing pisses me off more than someone who promotes such a thing. It's no better than what the cops do in their "drug" war.

Kokesh can go fuck himself.

Did you watch the video yet? I haven't, but there are a few people here who said they watched the video and it changed their mind about what he actually said. Kokesh does have a way with words and I don't recall him ever actually advocating violence.

That said, I understand not everybody is going to want to be in the Kokesh camp, just like not everybody is going to want to be in the Rand camp. I personally support both because Kokesh will never be able to do what Rand is doing and Rand would never be able to do what Kokesh is doing. I support a multi-pronged approach to liberty.

As far as the Vegas killers and violence against the police, I think tactfully it was wrong and it may end up backfiring for us if they try to take away more rights, but morally I have a hard time saying that they were wrong and being that he was kidnapped for a stupid law and now has had so many rights taken away over it, well, I can see how someone in that position would be pretty pissed off at the mob organization that has and will continue to trample their rights. Personally, I think our civil liberties are far too gone to be able to justify being apart of the police force (or military) in this country not unlike German security forces at the Concentration Camps in Germany. Many of them might not be aware, but how many concentration camp officers knew exactly what was going on? But I say if you're going to become a soldier or be apart of a violent security force you better know what you are getting yourself into and know who the enemies are and why, otherwise you just aren't doing your due diligence in getting involved. What they did might not be the best answer or even a good answer, it accomplished little to nothing and may end up taking us backward, but I find it sorta understandable that based on what law enforcement does that some people would react that way.

[Christian Liberty]

Frankly, the comments from statists here are angering me far more than what Cantwell said did. Maybe that makes me too extreme. But I'm so sick of seeing this kind of crap on this website. brandon's last post is a good example. Yeah, sell your own and trust people that like Levin, Hannity, and Beck. Yeah, that's obviously a great idea.

Freaking morons:rolleyes: This is the kind of stuff I come here to get away from...

[amy31416]

When has Kokesh done any of those things? He's an anti-statist and a voluntarist. I don't agree with every detail either, but I do not see how he is doing what you say he's doing.

Matt Collins, on the other hand... well, everyone knows that's what he's doing;)

I'll admit that I could be wrong about Kokesh' motives--but he is nuts and I would not want him as my wingman in any sort of battle.

[Danke]

I must be out of the loop.

Are there people in this thread defending the position that it's justifiable to murder someone merely on account of their being a cop?

Tell me that's not what anybody's saying here, please.


No, there should be citizen's arrests and tribunals...

[JK/SEA]

I must be out of the loop.

Are there people in this thread defending the position that it's justifiable to murder someone merely on account of their being a cop?

Tell me that's not what anybody's saying here, please.

put the blame where it really belongs, and you'll have your answer.

Kelly Thomas did this to himself.....oh wait, different topic...sorry.

[Christian Liberty]

Did you watch the video yet? I haven't, but there are a few people here who said they watched the video and it changed their mind about what he actually said. Kokesh does have a way with words and I don't recall him ever actually advocating violence.

That said, I understand not everybody is going to want to be in the Kokesh camp, just like not everybody is going to want to be in the Rand camp. I personally support both because Kokesh will never be able to do what Rand is doing and Rand would never be able to do what Kokesh is doing. I support a multi-pronged approach to liberty.

As far as the Vegas killers and violence against the police, I think tactfully it was wrong and it may end up backfiring for us if they try to take away more rights, but morally I have a hard time saying that they were wrong and being that he was kidnapped for a stupid law and now has had so many rights taken away over it, well, I can see how someone in that position would be pretty pissed off at the mob organization that has and will continue to trample their rights. Personally, I think our civil liberties are far too gone to be able to justify being apart of the police force (or military) in this country not unlike German security forces at the Concentration Camps in Germany. Many of them might not be aware, but how many concentration camp officers knew exactly what was going on? But I say if you're going to become a soldier or be apart of a violent security force you better know what you are getting yourself into and know who the enemies are and why, otherwise you just aren't doing your due diligence in getting involved. What they did might not be the best answer or even a good answer, it accomplished little to nothing and may end up taking us backward, but I find it sorta understandable that based on what law enforcement does that some people would react that way.
Its still not justified to go after someone just because they are a cop. At the very least, you'd have to know that the cop in question did something worthy of death according to your own conscience. That would be the bare minimum. To me, this same argument could be used to assassinate Ron Paul because he was a politician and politicians are near-universally mass murderers and thieves. Its a bad argument morally as well as not being tactically helpful. I'm with you on the immorality of joining the military or the police, and I refuse to defend those who join, but I don't wish them dead either. It doesn't seem like Kokesh does either. The video is way different than the article. Once again, compromise and his website are liars and they are disgusting. The OP is way more disgusting than Cantwell's comment. And Kokesh didn't even really say anything that was that objectionable.

[amy31416]

Did you watch the video yet? I haven't, but there are a few people here who said they watched the video and it changed their mind about what he actually said. Kokesh does have a way with words and I don't recall him ever actually advocating violence.

That said, I understand not everybody is going to want to be in the Kokesh camp, just like not everybody is going to want to be in the Rand camp. I personally support both because Kokesh will never be able to do what Rand is doing and Rand would never be able to do what Kokesh is doing. I support a multi-pronged approach to liberty.

As far as the Vegas killers and violence against the police, I think tactfully it was wrong and it may end up backfiring for us if they try to take away more rights, but morally I have a hard time saying that they were wrong and being that he was kidnapped for a stupid law and now has had so many rights taken away over it, well, I can see how someone in that position would be pretty pissed off at the mob organization that has and will continue to trample their rights. Personally, I think our civil liberties are far too gone to be able to justify being apart of the police force (or military) in this country not unlike German security forces at the Concentration Camps in Germany. Many of them might not be aware, but how many concentration camp officers knew exactly what was going on? But I say if you're going to become a soldier or be apart of a violent security force you better know what you are getting yourself into and know who the enemies are and why, otherwise you just aren't doing your due diligence in getting involved. What they did might not be the best answer or even a good answer, it accomplished little to nothing and may end up taking us backward, but I find it sorta understandable that based on what law enforcement does that some people would react that way.

I've said many times that I can't watch videos, and that's still the case. But until I see evidence proving otherwise, he's off his rocker. I base that on videos that I watched quite a while ago...he ain't right in the head. I do not want.

[Christian Liberty]

I'll admit that I could be wrong about Kokesh' motives--but he is nuts and I would not want him as my wingman in any sort of battle.

Regardless, Kokesh did not say that it was OK to go kill cops. Watch the video.


put the blame where it really belongs, and you'll have your answer.

Kelly Thomas did this to himself.....oh wait, different topic...sorry.

There's a difference between using vigilante justice against specific cops who have committed murder, and using vigilante justice against cops at random.

[Christian Liberty]

I've said many times that I can't watch videos, and that's still the case. But until I see evidence proving otherwise, he's off his rocker. I base that on videos that I watched quite a while ago...he ain't right in the head. I do not want.

OK, than take my word for it. Kokesh didn't say that it was OK to kill cops. Kokesh was saying that the American police state victimized these men, which motivated them to go kill cops, but he didn't say it was justified and he advised against anyone else who had been victimized from going that route. Kokesh was identifying WHY they did what they did, not saying it was OK. Much like most of us here (with the exception of those who think it was a false flag) agree that American foreign policy has victimized Muslim nations and that this motivates them to commit terrorism, but that terrorism is still murder and a serious crime. What Kokesh was saying was way closer to that.

[dannno]

I must be out of the loop.

Are there people in this thread defending the position that it's justifiable to murder someone merely on account of their being a cop?

Tell me that's not what anybody's saying here, please.

Did you ever answer the question I asked compromise on the first page of this thread?

I don't think anybody is saying that it is the best thing, tactfully. But I don't see any difference between someone killing a cop or killing some of the security forces from German concentration camps while they were eating lunch. What's the difference? Is it not morally ok or your view to shoot security forces of German Concentration camps while they are eating lunch?

[amy31416]

Regardless, Kokesh did not say that it was OK to go kill cops. Watch the video.


ARGH! I can't watch videos--I've said that a hundred times already!

I'm not judging him solely on this, it's his actions over the past several years.

[brandon]

Frankly, the comments from statists here are angering me far more than what Cantwell said did. Maybe that makes me too extreme. But I'm so sick of seeing this kind of crap on this website. brandon's last post is a good example. Yeah, sell your own and trust people that like Levin, Hannity, and Beck. Yeah, that's obviously a great idea.

Freaking morons:rolleyes: This is the kind of stuff I come here to get away from...

I'll throw a snowball at at Kokesh as quickly as I'll throw one at Hannity. This will probably go over your head though, young bull.

[dannno]

Its still not justified to go after someone just because they are a cop. At the very least, you'd have to know that the cop in question did something worthy of death according to your own conscience. That would be the bare minimum. To me, this same argument could be used to assassinate Ron Paul because he was a politician and politicians are near-universally mass murderers and thieves. Its a bad argument morally as well as not being tactically helpful. I'm with you on the immorality of joining the military or the police, and I refuse to defend those who join, but I don't wish them dead either. It doesn't seem like Kokesh does either. The video is way different than the article. Once again, compromise and his website are liars and they are disgusting. The OP is way more disgusting than Cantwell's comment. And Kokesh didn't even really say anything that was that objectionable.

Is it ok to go after a German Security Officer at a Concentration camp in WWII? What if they weren't actually killing anybody, they were just leading people off trains and guarding the wall?

[amy31416]

OK, than take my word for it. Kokesh didn't say that it was OK to kill cops. Kokesh was saying that the American police state victimized these men, which motivated them to go kill cops, but he didn't say it was justified and he advised against anyone else who had been victimized from going that route. Kokesh was identifying WHY they did what they did, not saying it was OK. Much like most of us here (with the exception of those who think it was a false flag) agree that American foreign policy has victimized Muslim nations and that this motivates them to commit terrorism, but that terrorism is still murder and a serious crime. What Kokesh was saying was way closer to that.

But I still think he's a total nutball, and I don't want nutball influence--he's the one who destroyed his reputation, not me.

[amy31416]

I'll throw a snowball at at Kokesh as quickly as I'll throw one at Hannity. This will probably go over your head though, young bull.

I'll raise you an iceball.

[dannno]

To me, this same argument could be used to assassinate Ron Paul because he was a politician and politicians are near-universally mass murderers and thieves.

Ron Paul is not in the enforcement class and within government was actively trying to dismantle the system, so I don't think it is quite the same as this.

[Christian Liberty]

Did you ever answer the question I asked compromise on the first page of this thread?

I don't think anybody is saying that it is the best thing, tactfully. But I don't see any difference between someone killing a cop or killing some of the security forces from German concentration camps while they were eating lunch. What's the difference? Is it not morally ok or your view to shoot security forces of German Concentration camps while they are eating lunch?


Is it ok to go after a German Security Officer at a Concentration camp in WWII? What if they weren't actually killing anybody, they were just leading people off trains and guarding the wall?

I don't know. I'm going to see if erowe1 will answer this one. I want to see an answer to this before I metaphorically jump on Cantwell:)



But I still think he's a total nutball, and I don't want nutball influence--he's the one who destroyed his reputation, not me.

How is he a nutball? Honest question.

[Christian Liberty]

Ron Paul is not in the enforcement class and within government was actively trying to dismantle the system, so I don't think it is quite the same as this.

What if there was a cop who had never enforced a law that violated the NAP (Say he just got his job, or he was busy sleeping and eating donuts rather than meeting his quotas, or whatever.) Could such a cop exist? Would shooting him be justified?

What if there was a cop who had enforced some laws that violated the NAP, but all of them were traffic laws and punished only by fines. he's a thief, but is stealing sufficient to warrant being shot? Would shooting him be justified? Could such a cop exist?

[Christian Liberty]

Ron Paul is not in the enforcement class and within government was actively trying to dismantle the system, so I don't think it is quite the same as this.

I generally agree with this, but he did make some bad votes, especially the 2001 AUMF. That said, in general he's been actively trying to dismantle the system, so I guess that would be a different category.

[Christian Liberty]

I take it back erowe1. There is one person who is defending the ethics of murdering cops just because they are cops. I really thought it was just Cantwell. Unless dannno is actually Cantwell:p

[amy31416]

How is he a nutball? Honest question.

I used to watch his videos, he ain't quite right. He has a sinister sort of personality, and (I know this is all my opinion) the way he conducted himself during his congressional run was simply bizarre. He also had genuine misconduct during his military service when he stole(?) a gun from some Iraqi and tried to smuggle it into the US.

So much about him seems to be aimed toward making us look like loonies and getting himself attention.

[Christian Liberty]

I used to watch his videos, he ain't quite right. He has a sinister sort of personality, and (I know this is all my opinion) the way he conducted himself during his congressional run was simply bizarre. He also had genuine misconduct during his military service when he stole(?) a gun from some Iraqi and tried to smuggle it into the US.

So much about him seems to be aimed toward making us look like loonies and getting himself attention.

Adam seems to look back on his own military "service" with contempt so I'm not sure how we can hold that against him. He doesn't seem insane to me and I enjoy listening to him. I honestly don't really care what his intentions are, if he's exposing people to libertarian principles that is a good thing even if he doesn't believe them himself.

[A Son of Liberty]

THIS:


Popular revolution, secession and re-setting the clock to zero.

Thus it has always been been, for all of mankind's history.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.

[ZENemy]

Hopefully he can get some mental health treatment while he's in prison. Guy has really lost it.

I dont get how he lost it. I'm not trying to be nasty towards you, but how has he lost it?

He is more cogent than ever actually, his prison stint sent him on a pretty positive mission and while he was never a doom and gloomer I think he has an even better outlook on things.

I mean, he racked a shell, big deal....all of us in this movement at one time or another get fed up and just our message to be heard, his misstep was miniscule and I think he came out a better person as a result.

People that think he lost it should really take some time to watch his back and fourths with people out there on the streets, his methods of questioning to expose contradictions work really well.

[amy31416]

Adam seems to look back on his own military "service" with contempt so I'm not sure how we can hold that against him. He doesn't seem insane to me and I enjoy listening to him. I honestly don't really care what his intentions are, if he's exposing people to libertarian principles that is a good thing even if he doesn't believe them himself.

I know he now views his "service" with contempt--but has he ever explained why he joined to begin with? Has he ever explained why he stole(?) that gun from someone else, when he was already armed? Has he ever stated why he wanted to be in congress?

Those are things I would want to make sure other people understood about me, especially when they could easily be misunderstood.

[Christian Liberty]

I know he now views his "service" with contempt--but has he ever explained why he joined to begin with? Has he ever explained why he stole(?) that gun from someone else, when he was already armed? Has he ever stated why he wanted to be in congress?

Those are things I would want to make sure other people understood about me, especially when they could easily be misunderstood.

I don't see the problem with wanting to go into congress. Lots of libertarians run from congress to fight politically from the inside. I also don't really need to know why he joined the military. Lots of people do. They believe the lies they were taught, that they will be "fighting for our freedoms" and so forth. I'm sure he'd answer if asked, but I'm not sure that he'd think to share. Lots of people join the military. Some later become libertarians and figure out that the military is messed up.

I get the curiosity about stealing a gun though. That's not "normal." I'm not sure if he's answered it.

[erowe1]

Did you ever answer the question I asked compromise on the first page of this thread?

No. Why would I answer a question you asked compromise?


I don't think anybody is saying that it is the best thing, tactfully. But I don't see any difference between someone killing a cop or killing some of the security forces from German concentration camps while they were eating lunch. What's the difference? Is it not morally ok or your view to shoot security forces of German Concentration camps while they are eating lunch?
So you would be ok with murdering someone just because they work at a Concentration Camp? Why?

[Anti Federalist]

What does re-setting the clock to zero mean?

There's a difference between revolution and secession, BTW. Secession means taking a block of land and trying to separate oneself from a government that claims to control it, while revolution means trying to remove the government from existence.

Which are you advocating?

Starting from scratch.

Both.

[erowe1]

No, there should be citizen's arrests and tribunals...

That's a very different thing then just murdering them because they're cops.

[osan]

How many bills have you ever gotten killed? How many pro-liberty bills have you ever gotten passed? How many pro-liberty candidates have you gotten elected? How many statists have you gotten thrown out of office?


Sorry Matt, you keep going on about the bills you've killed... all fine and good, but in the final analysis I am less free right now as I type this than I was this morning when I awoke. As I pointed out to you in another thread, if what you claim (bills killed) is true then all you are doing is slowing down the process of murdering my rights. That is not really helping much, I am afraid. Unless the day comes, and it comes soon, that I go to bed notably less oppressed than I was when I awoke the previous morning, all the bill killing that you are doing is accomplishing nothing on the whole.

Think of it as a sinking ship that has a huge gash running half the length of the hull at the keel. Your bill-killing is like the replacement of rivets that pop as the stresses become too much for them to hold while the larger opening continues to admit water unabated. The difference is between action and its net effect.

[Matt Collins]

You're in the same category as Kokesh. You use this movement for simple, personal gain and an attempt at having some semblance of power over other people.HA! Are you kidding? I've lost a great deal of money by being involved. I could be making so much more if I were in the private for-profit sector. But I choose to be here because this is important and it needs to be done. And judging by the words of some of the defeatist slouches around here the movement needs as many people as we can get who are willing to fight for our rights because most people, even the liberty crowd, do not do so.

[Matt Collins]

Hopefully he can get some mental health treatment while he's in prison. Guy has really lost it.
Drugs will do that to you...

[osan]

So, what is the solution?


Until a critical mass is achieved, IF it ever is achieved, there is no end-game solution. There are intermediate measures such as education, but those assess as useful only if one day the oppressed people decide enough is enough and throw off the tyrants. That has not been very successful very many times in the past, nor for very long. The only hope we seem to have, all else equal, lies in the technologies that might provide, for example, the video records to which successive generations may turn that would help them adopt a more determined attitude toward their freedom. I cannot say I am very optimistic there either, but its better than no hope at all.

Let us be plain: since the dawn of Empire, the mean human being has been decaying in terms of those qualities that help him remain free. Two of those qualities include understanding the true nature of his freedom and having the implacable determination to be and remain in such a state. Today the meaner thinks he is free as he trudges about in his leg-irons, wholly bemused with the diversions provided him and his right to their indiscriminate use. So believing, he is void of any impetus to change the status quo. His "thinking" is so fatally distorted that when he sees something that should register on his radar as "irregular" at the lease, such as when a cop beats an innocent person to death or an entry team murders an innocent home occupant in a breach gone wrong, his trained-in habit is to ask what the victims did to meet such ends, never even once considering that the agents of death may have been at fault. I characterize that state of "intellect" and attitude as being infinitely close to hopeless, the only likely thing to cause a quantum alteration of both perception and attitude being what I would label a "miracle".

Joey and Janey Meaner have no interest in change because they are tolerably happy with the status quo. That is a problem for which the correct solutions are eminently evasive and shy.

[Matt Collins]

How many have you?Many.

[Aratus]

luv --- this has you being the perennial campaign manager seeking out a contender whose
lack of use of legal and illegal substances puts even the Mormon community to shame?????

[amy31416]

HA! Are you kidding? I've lost a great deal of money by being involved. I could be making so much more if I were in the private for-profit sector. But I choose to be here because this is important and it needs to be done. And judging by the words of some of the defeatist slouches around here the movement needs as many people as we can get who are willing to fight for our rights because most people, even the liberty crowd, do not do so.

Bullshit. You've never spent a goddamned dime on this movement--you have taken a lot from it though.

[JK/SEA]

Drugs will do that to you...


takes a drug user to know a drug user Matt, and perhaps you can list the drugs Adam has used and in what quantities.

[osan]

Alright, so I am busy and still have not seen the video in question, but if it is so that Kokesh has been misquoted, then the game is different. I have to reserve judgment until such time as I see the clip.

But what of the rest... the raid that produced the drugs? Is Kokesh that foolish? This is a man that has eyes upon him aplenty. Forget the moral fail of the drug laws and bear in mind that men with guns will either kill you or take you to a cage and charge you with all manner of bad things that, when convicted, will yield an actual and real-deal prison term in another cage with lots of lonely men just dying to have you keep them some warm and cuddly company.

That shotgun stunt was impressively stupid, I must add. I would have done it in front of a green screen and edited in the live DC street footage later, thereby leaving the stooges with no basis for charges. The point still comes across, smart or otherwise.

I am all for bold action, but stupidity should be avoided because once you have become the silenced pass-around girl in a federal penitentiary, you are benefitting nobody - least of all yourself. This brand of action reminds me of that anti-nuke activist in CA in 1979 or 1980 who laid his legs across the main rail line where a train carrying either weapons or waste was scheduled. He said he would not move his legs no matter what and if the train ran him over, so be it. Well, the train did not stop and the ONLY result was a man without legs. That man was what we normally call an "idiot". I don't recall his name and I bet few Americans anywhere can. He is anonymous and his sacrifice gained the world NOTHING. Stupid stupid stupid.

As Patton once opined: "The object is not for you to die for your country. It's for you to make the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." I hope I got that correct... if not, just make believe the quotes are not there. :)

Regardless of his true intentions, Kokesh pooched the deal quite effectively. I now gather that he is, in fact, facing up to 15 years in the pen. Nice going. What was he thinking, that the outrage across the land would be such that Joe Meaner would rise up, AR15 in hand, and put this system of unbridled evil to ends? If so, I do believe we now have a new definition for "miscalculation".

Kokesh has done the "movement" some harm in a sense because if he goes to prison people will say, "see? He's a kook and a criminal." If he flees to Brazil, the perception will be pretty much identical. Good going Adam.

What is it with people who gain position as has Kokesh and then go off as if they were untouchable? Ron Paul is one of the few I have encountered to have successfully avoided falling for the trap... and look how he ended up... 36 years of having accomplished NOTHING in congress, though he has been the inspiration for millions of Americans, so there is that. But my point is that this "system" is so invaded with iniquity that good men are as yet incapable of affecting any truly significant change for the better. We have the small handful of Massies and such and one day the contingent may be strong enough to cause a sea change, but we are running short on time because the likes of the Obamites are clearly on a mission to castrate every individual of his liberty balls and the apparent agenda accelerates almost daily with every new outrage reported.

Unless someone can point me to a truly oblique and utterly brilliant stratagem behind this apparent tactical blunder, I would have to say fie upon Kokesh for having been so wasteful of the position he presumably gained through his hard and at times daring work.

ETA: Just watched first 13 minutes of the video. Yeah, he was grossly misquoted. His statements were cherry-picked to present a VERY misleading impression of his stated position.

He seems very rational, in fact, which renders the shotgun stunt all the more perplexing, especially when considering the drug angle... unless the drugs were planted, which would not surprise me in the least measure.

[torchbearer]

I must be out of the loop.

Are there people in this thread defending the position that it's justifiable to murder someone merely on account of their being a cop?

Tell me that's not what anybody's saying here, please.

I don't think Kokesh defended murder, but you wouldn't know that unless you watched the video.
He didn't endorse the murder of these cops, he called it crazy and stupid- and reaffirmed his non-aggressionist position.

I see some otherwise smart people say some stupid shit in this thread... and its because they ran their mouths before getting all the facts.
We have first hand source in this thread, posted several times. there really is no excuse.

[Anti Federalist]

Joey and Janey Meaner have no interest in change because they are tolerably happy with the status quo. That is a problem for which the correct solutions are eminently evasive and shy.

Thus it has always been:


(a)ll experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

[Cap]

An agent provocateur (French for "inciting agent") is an undercover agent who acts to entice another person to commit an illegal or rash act or falsely implicate them in partaking in an illegal act. An agent provocateur may be employed by the police or other entity to discredit or harm another group (e.g., peaceful protest or demonstration) by provoking them to commit an act - thus, undermining the protest or demonstration as whole.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I wasn't alluding to Adam in this post.

[Matt Collins]

Bullshit. You've never spent a goddamned dime on this movement--you have taken a lot from it though.uhh... you have no idea what you are talking about. Your ignorance is showing.

[Matt Collins]

takes a drug user to know a drug user Matt, No, not at all.


and perhaps you can list the drugs Adam has used and in what quantities.There was a lot of speculation that it appeared he was on steroids (I had a doctor tell me that; and no their last name wasn't "Paul").

[phill4paul]

There was a lot of speculation that it appeared he was on steroids (I had a doctor tell me that; and no their last name wasn't "Paul").

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1285142/ace-ventura-ass-talkin-o.gif

[phill4paul]

There was a lot of speculation that it appeared he was on steroids (I had a doctor tell me that; and no their last name wasn't "Paul").

Adam Kokesh Adam Kokesh is offline
Member



1) Operate with ethically sound principles.
• Be honest and truthful.
• Respect others life, liberty and property.
• Respect others' copyrights, intellectual property and contracts, per legal standards. Limit fair-use posting of copyright material to the lesser of four paragraphs or a quarter of the writing.
• Work to promote a peaceful, freedom loving, compassionate society. Posts should not promote negativity in collectivist mindsets that view humans as members of groups rather than individuals. Such forms of collectivism include sexism, racism, antisemitism; they will not be tolerated here.
• Operate within established morally sound laws.


2) Maintain good etiquette by treating other people with respect.
• No insulting, antagonizing or personally attacking other users.
• No posting of anyone's personal contact information or members personal details.
• Ad hominem attacks on any individual or groups is strongly discouraged, use proper names.
• Be respectful of others' religion or lack there of.
• See the "Being respectful" section below for fine point details.

Reported.

[brandon]

takes a drug user to know a drug user Matt, and perhaps you can list the drugs Adam has used and in what quantities.
I don't know what he used personally but the charges against him, which he plead guilty to, were that he was in possession of LSD, marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy and mushrooms.

[phill4paul]

I don't know what he used personally but the charges against him, which he plead guilty to, were that he was in possession of LSD, marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy and mushrooms.

He didn't plead guilty. Nice try.

[brandon]

He didn't plead guilty. Nice try.

Whatever, he basically plead no contest and then they convicted him. Same thing in my book.

[Matt Collins]

He didn't plead guilty. Nice try.
From my understanding it was in fact a guilty plea although still claiming innocence but based upon the evidence would be likely to convict.

[donnay]

I don't know what he used personally but the charges against him, which he plead guilty to, that were planted on him were that he was in possession of LSD, marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy and mushrooms.

FIFY

[JK/SEA]

I don't know what he used personally but the charges against him, which he plead guilty to, were that he was in possession of LSD, marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy and mushrooms.


lol...yeah, well, i'm in possession of my sons gold, locked in my safe for him, doesn't mean i'm going to spend it.

[pcosmar]

I don't know what he used personally but the charges against him, which he plead guilty to, were that he was in possession of LSD, marijuana, cocaine, ecstasy and mushrooms.

And you believe that shit..

In a house that was meticulously cleaned in expectation of an imminent raid.. they had a stash of all that..
I do not believe that..

It was planted there,, either by the cops that raided the place or by someone inside the house that was compromised by the police that raided the place.

The guns were in a safe. If the drugs were in fact inside the safe,, they were planted there for this purpose.

[Matt Collins]

in the final analysis I am less free right now as I type this than I was this morning when I awoke.Depends on where you live.

We can't reverse decades of leviathan overnight, we have to slow down the construction before we can stop it and then eventually disassemble it.



As I pointed out to you in another thread, if what you claim (bills killed) is true then all you are doing is slowing down the process of murdering my rights. That is not really helping much, I am afraid. Of course it is. We can't reverse the process until we stop the process. And we can't stop the process until we slow it down.



Unless the day comes, and it comes soon, that I go to bed notably less oppressed than I was when I awoke the previous morning, all the bill killing that you are doing is accomplishing nothing on the whole.Where do you live?

[phill4paul]

Whatever, he basically plead no contest and then they convicted him. Same thing in my book.


From my understanding it was in fact a guilty plea although still claiming innocence but based upon the evidence would be likely to convict.

97% of ALL federal cases plead. Do you truly believe that 97% of those tried by federal prosecutors are guilty? Or do you think that an individual, faced with the machinations of the machinery built to destroy them, might at least try to breath air outside a rape cage in their lifetime.
97 motherfucking %!

And you two are the statists that are trying to tell us to "work within the system" while excoriating Kokesh for doing just that to save his ass? SMDH.

[Matt Collins]

97% of ALL federal cases plead. Do you truly believe that 97% of those tried by federal prosecutors are guilty? Or do you think that an individual, faced with the machinations of the machinery built to destroy them, might at least try to breath air outside a rape cage in their lifetime.Of course its stacked against them. Which is why people shouldn't do stupid crap like this to get themselves thrown in there. Adam has zero sympathy here, he completely brought all of it on himself, unnecessarily so.





And you two are the statists that are trying to tell us to "work within the system" while excoriating Kokesh for doing just that to save his ass? SMDH.The courts are rigged a lot of times, but one can pretty easily manipulate a state legislature or town council if they put out some effort. I know because I've done it.

[Christian Liberty]

I don't think Kokesh defended murder, but you wouldn't know that unless you watched the video.
He didn't endorse the murder of these cops, he called it crazy and stupid- and reaffirmed his non-aggressionist position.

I see some otherwise smart people say some stupid shit in this thread... and its because they ran their mouths before getting all the facts.
We have first hand source in this thread, posted several times. there really is no excuse.

I'm guilty as charged. I believed the article at first to. To my shame. I often just skim these things and don't really look at them. I might have been suspicious had Cantwell not actually said pretty much what Kokesh was accused of saying.

That said, I don't think erowe1 is among the "stupid people" that you're mentioning (and I include myself in that category, I slipped up and stupidly believed the article.) erowe1 ASKED if people were defending cop shooting, he didn't say that anyone was. And while Kokesh did not defend such, there is one user here who did.


Of course its stacked against them. Which is why people shouldn't do stupid crap like this to get themselves thrown in there. Adam has zero sympathy here, he completely brought all of it on himself, unnecessarily so.


By doing what immoral act exactly? What did he do to deserve the tyranny of the system?

[phill4paul]

Of course its stacked against them. Which is why people shouldn't do stupid crap like this to get themselves thrown in there. Adam has zero sympathy here, he completely brought all of it on himself, unnecessarily so.

By "here" you mean with you. I support him. So much so that I would have joined his march. Which I think was a better course of action. There is nothing "unnecessarily" about exercising natural rights.


The courts are rigged a lot of times, but one can pretty easily manipulate a state legislature or town council if they put out some effort. I know because I've done it.

This was a FEDERAL case. And despite your belief the courts are rigged ALL of the time. The court is there not to defend the individual but to reiterate the power of the collective over the individual. That scenario is played out every day. Despite any one-off victories.

[brandon]

And you believe that shit..

In a house that was meticulously cleaned in expectation of an imminent raid.. they had a stash of all that..
I do not believe that..


If you think Adam and his cohorts did anything meticulously you're living in outerspace. Did you see the video of his drugged out trashy roommates fighting and pulling guns on each other after Kokesh was arrested?

[brandon]

And you two are the statists that are trying to tell us to "work within the system" while excoriating Kokesh for doing just that to save his ass? SMDH.
I didn't tell you or anyone to do anything. Do as you please. Someone asked a very simple question and I responded with a very simple factual answer. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Matt Collins]

By doing what immoral act exactly? What did he do to deserve the tyranny of the system?I never said he did. But when you poke a bear, expect to get bit.

[Christian Liberty]

I never said he did. But when you poke a bear, expect to get bit.

The bear is too big, it completely surrounds you. How are you supposed to avoid poking it?

Even if Kokesh's action was foolhardy, that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve our sympathy. This is like saying a woman "asked for it" when she is raped based on what she chose to wear or because she walked in a dark alley at midnight. Its just stupid, and it says something about the morality of the person saying it.

(mod delete)

[Matt Collins]

And despite your belief the courts are rigged ALL of the time. The court is there not to defend the individual but to reiterate the power of the collective over the individual. When an individual violates the rights of another then the court's job is to hold them accountable for that action.

And no, Adam didn't violate anyone's rights, regardless of how much of a poor choice his actions were.

[amy31416]

uhh... you have no idea what you are talking about. Your ignorance is showing.

Prove me wrong, you [mod delete]

[phill4paul]

When an individual violates the rights of another then the court's job is to hold them accountable for that action.

And no, Adam didn't violate anyone's rights, regardless of how much of a poor choice his actions were.

SMDH. Compare the two sentences that you wrote and see if you can make reason out of rereading them. Because I sure can't.

[Anti Federalist]

Adam has zero sympathy here, he completely brought all of it on himself, unnecessarily so.

And there you have it:

Adam Kokesh did this to himself.

[Spikender]

Wow, it was literally only a matter of time.

We finally know FrankRep's main account.

[Czolgosz]

This dude *wants* political power, under the guise of liberty, and denounces those who don't obey. Speaks volume.

[Christian Liberty]

Wow, it was literally only a matter of time.

We finally know FrankRep's main account.

I don't think its him. I think there's more than one evil statists here pretending to be a libertarian (and yes, I call them evil if they're posting on this website they should know better.)

[LibertyEagle]

(mod delete)

FF, back away from the keyboard, dude. You have lost it.

[LibertyEagle]

I don't think its him. I think there's more than one evil statists here pretending to be a libertarian (and yes, I call them evil if they're posting on this website they should know better.)

Here's a newsflash for you FF. THIS ISN'T A LIBERTARIAN SITE. Isn't now and never has been. It was a forum for getting a man elected for President and everyone interested in same was welcome. I guess you call all those people, "evil statists". :rolleyes:

[Occam's Banana]

How many bills have you ever gotten killed? How many pro-liberty bills have you ever gotten passed? How many pro-liberty candidates have you gotten elected? How many statists have you gotten thrown out of office?Are you retarded or drunk?

LMGDAO!! :D:D:D This has got be one of the funniest things I have ever read at RPFs. Seriously - it is.

Whether you agree with ASoL or not, Matt's reply to ASoL is so absurdly irrelevant to the points ASoL was making that the phrase "utterly oblivious" does not even remotely begin to cover it. If I doubted before that Matt could really be so wretchedly and abysmally incapable of providing actual, substantive rebuttals to his interlocutors, well ... I can doubt it no longer. I am now left only to wonder whether Matt is even able to dimly sense the *whoosh!* of their points as they whizz past ...

[Christian Liberty]

Here's a newsflash for you FF. THIS ISN'T A LIBERTARIAN SITE. Isn't now and never has been. It was a forum for getting a man elected for President and everyone interested in same was welcome. I guess you call all those people, "evil statists". :rolleyes:

Ron Paul is certainly a libertarian.

I guess the real issue is that not all of us support Ron for the same reason. For some, Ron is a compromise between what we have now and what we ultimately want (a stateless society.) For others, Ron Paul is actually more radical than what they want, they don't actually want to be free, but they support Ron because the other candidates were too liberal. These are the people that enthusiastically support Rand, and are concerned about "radicals" in the movement.

There isn't a Ron Paul movement. There are at least two. And I don't really have that much in common with the other group.

[LibertyEagle]

Ron Paul is certainly a libertarian.
That's not all he is. He was also a Republican. And a conservative.


I guess the real issue is that not all of us support Ron for the same reason. For some, Ron is a compromise between what we have now and what we ultimately want (a stateless society.)

Who is "we"? I don't want anarchy.


For others, Ron Paul is actually more radical than what they want, they don't actually want to be free, but they support Ron because the other candidates were too liberal. These are the people that enthusiastically support Rand, and are concerned about "radicals" in the movement.

Versus you, who want to ban everyone and their dog. :rolleyes:


There isn't a Ron Paul movement. There are at least two. And I don't really have that much in common with the other group.

Honestly, I don't know who you do have anything in common with, who hasn't already been banned. ;)

[Christian Liberty]

That's not all he is. He was also a Republican. And a conservative.



I'm not really sure what a conservative is anymore. He was a member of the Republican Party, but he obviously didn't share their values.


Who is "we"? I don't want anarchy.


First of all, I said "stateless society" not "anarchy." Second of all, I defined the "we" in my post saying "some of us."



Versus you, who want to ban everyone and their dog. :rolleyes:


I only suggested banning two people, because I believe they are here to try to destroy the message of liberty. I can't prove it, but I strongly believe that these two particular people are hired by the establishment based on the types of things they say.




Honestly, I don't know who you do have anything in common with, who hasn't already been banned. ;)

I had politics in mind here, so pretty much any anarcho-capitalist or radical minarchist.

[Vanguard101]

So if you don't want anarchy, how do you want a stateless society?

You really think the establishment would pay people to destroy liberty on ronpaulforums? LMAO

[liberty2897]

Watched Adam's video. I think he summed it up better than anyone else I've heard.

[edit]

Might seem un-related to this thread, but if you watched Adam's video discussed in this thread, then this is a good follow-up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suOds5C4DI8&feature=g-u-u

[Christian Liberty]

So if you don't want anarchy, how do you want a stateless society?

I support anarcho-capitalism but prefer calling it voluntarism because "anarchy" is too often a buzzword meaning chaos.

Put another way, I am not opposed to all government, but I am always opposed to the State.


You really think the establishment would pay people to destroy liberty on ronpaulforums? LMAO

I cannot imagine why else compromise and Matt Collins would be here.

[liberty2897]

//

[edit] sorry meant to edit my previous post, and ended up replying instead.

[A Son of Liberty]

LMGDAO!! :D:D:D This has got be one of the funniest things I have ever read at RPFs. Seriously - it is.

Whether you agree with ASoL or not, Matt's reply to ASoL is so absurdly irrelevant to the points ASoL was making that the phrase "utterly oblivious" does not even remotely begin to cover it. If I doubted before that Matt could really be so wretchedly and abysmally incapable of providing actual, substantive rebuttals to his interlocutors, well ... I can doubt it no longer. I am now left only to wonder whether Matt is even able to dimly sense the *whoosh!* of their points as they whizz past ...

;)

I had considered asking him if he'd even read my post, or if he intended at some future point to respond to my comments, but his response was - as you said - so absurdly irrelevant that I thought it more likely that he was drunk or is mentally challenged. Sincerely, it was only for my clarification. I didn't want to proceed if that is who I was engaging. ;)

[Vanguard101]

I support anarcho-capitalism but prefer calling it voluntarism because "anarchy" is too often a buzzword meaning chaos.

Put another way, I am not opposed to all government, but I am always opposed to the State.


I cannot imagine why else compromise and Matt Collins would be here.
Ok, I'm not buzzing it as chaos. Again, if you don't want anarchy, how do you want a stateless society?



Yes tell me more about those two...

[bunklocoempire]

The bear is too big, it completely surrounds you. How are you supposed to avoid poking it?

Even if Kokesh's action was foolhardy, that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve our sympathy. This is like saying a woman "asked for it" when she is raped based on what she chose to wear or because she walked in a dark alley at midnight. Its just stupid, and it says something about the morality of the person saying it.

You are a repulsive pig Matt. Repent.

Matt isn't repulsive, his conscience dulling ideas are.

[Christian Liberty]

Ok, I'm not buzzing it as chaos. Again, if you don't want anarchy, how do you want a stateless society?



Yes tell me more about those two...

If "anarchy" simply means a lack of State, than I agree with anarchy.

But that doesn't mean a lack of all laws, nor does it mean that people can go around murdering people and getting away with it. It means a consistently applied standard of law, namely the non-aggression principle, without any exceptions for governments, and without any legally protected monopoly on law enforcement.

If that's what "anarchy" means to you, than I support "anarchy." But when people think of anarchy, they don't normally think about private property based systems with (potentially) multiple peace-keeping agencies and fully robust laws against theft, murder, and other aggressive actions. I don't honestly know what LE thinks of when she thinks of it, hence why I said "I didn't say anything about anarchy."

[A Son of Liberty]

I don't honestly know what LE thinks of when she thinks of it

My guess:

http://what-buddha-said.net/Pics/anger.red1.jpg

[Spikender]

I don't think its him. I think there's more than one evil statists here pretending to be a libertarian (and yes, I call them evil if they're posting on this website they should know better.)

It honestly surprises me how many people took me seriously when I kept on saying that Matt Collins's is FrankRep. I was joking, folks.

It's just scary how close their logic is to each other. Though I think on the whole FrankRep was a lot better than Matt, save for when it comes to LEOs.

[Christian Liberty]

It honestly surprises me how many people took me seriously when I kept on saying that Matt Collins's is FrankRep. I was joking, folks.

OK, sorry:p




It's just scary how close their logic is to each other. Though I think on the whole FrankRep was a lot better than Matt, save for when it comes to LEOs.

I wonder if I'm biased when it comes to LEOs. I'm not a fan of the career, but the one cop I actually know in person is one of the nicest people I know. And though he doesn't quite "get it" politically, he doesn't come off as a raving authoritarian either. I don't say he's a "good cop" but I think he's a decent person who happens to be in a career I could never justify.

I've been criticized multiple times on this site for not shunning this person, but the funny thing is that every single person I know in real life who I've had this conversation with thinks I'm extremely anti-cop, and most of them think that cops in some way are "keeping us safe." Meanwhile, on here I get criticized for not unconditionally condemning someone who's basically at war with Americans.

Admittedly, the line of thinking I get on here is closer to being true, and I definitely get everyone's frustration. Heck, I'm frustrated to, and I frequently feel depressed by the sheer stupidity of some of the arguments I get (in person.) Sometimes I have to remind myself that the person has never been exposed to libertarian principle before. And sometimes I'm justified in thinking little of the persons intellect (or morality) but its still frustrating.

I'm not generally that emotionally attached when it comes to other people's comments, but I can see how a liberty minded person who has a friendly relation with one or more cops could be driven to an unhealthy extreme in the "pro-cop" direction when hearing comments like Cantwell basically saying he's glad two cops were shot. I think its wrong to be influenced in that direction by those comments, but I do get it. Much like I get why Cantwell said what he said, even though I think it was wrong.

I don't know. Its frustrating. I don't care what people think by nature and its still a frustrating thing to try to balance for me. I don't usually worry about it as much when I'm not online. I just try to influence people as much as I can in the right direction. But even then I sometimes get frustrated:p

Being a libertarian isn't easy. But I'd never give it up either. When your eyes are opened, it can make you miserable, but you'd never go back either.

[DevilsAdvocate]

What a nutcase. I have a feeling he's been doing too many mushrooms. He's officially crossed the line from fringe to insane.

[Cap]

What a nutcase. I have a feeling he's been doing too many mushrooms. He's officially crossed the line from fringe to insane.Nah, the Collinz isn't that bad.

[A Son of Liberty]

Being a libertarian isn't easy. But I'd never give it up either. When your eyes are opened, it can make you miserable, but you'd never go back either.

Truth.

[rprprs]

If you think Adam and his cohorts did anything meticulously you're living in outerspace. Did you see the video of his drugged out trashy roommates fighting and pulling guns on each other after Kokesh was arrested?
Missed that video and feeling too lazy at the moment to search it out. Would you (or anyone else here) have a link to it?

[pcosmar]

If you think Adam and his cohorts did anything meticulously you're living in outerspace. Did you see the video of his drugged out trashy roommates fighting and pulling guns on each other after Kokesh was arrested?

No,, I did not see that video. But I have heard through different sources that some of the folks there had ripped him off.

And it is real possible that one of them set him up. Or was turned into an informant/Snitch/operative,, to get out of some legal hassle of their own.

And I had also heard from folks in the house that it had been cleaned out in anticipation of the raid after the D.C shotgun video.

This seems more of a set up.

[Spikender]

What a nutcase. I have a feeling he's been doing too many mushrooms. He's officially crossed the line from fringe to insane.

Said by the man who didn't watch the video and simply read the title.

Then again, can't blame ya; that's what our current crop of humanity does: read headlines and make quick judgment calls without any facts or information. Thanks for being the voice of the people, Advocate.

[Matt Collins]

This dude *wants* political power, under the guise of liberty, and denounces those who don't obey. Speaks volume.There is nothing wrong with political power just like there is nothing wrong with money. If we are going to win back our liberty we must attain power for ourselves so that we can diffuse it. We can't change anything without gaining political power.

[Matt Collins]

The bear is too big, it completely surrounds you. How are you supposed to avoid poking it?
How many other people do you know blatantly and flagrantly flaunt violations of the law for everyone to see? Of course when you do so expect to feel the wrath of the government.

Adam wasn't smart about it at all, and he has zero sympathy going for him.

[pcosmar]

There is nothing wrong with political power

Yes there is.
If you don't understand that,, you know worse than nothing.

You do not understand why it must be limited.

Power Corrupts.

[pcosmar]

How many other people do you know blatantly and flagrantly flaunt violations of the law for everyone to see?


Lots of them.
Off hand,, everyone in the government,, or employed by the government.

[Matt Collins]

Yes there is.
If you don't understand that,, you know worse than nothing.

You do not understand why it must be limited.

Power Corrupts.There is nothing wrong with money. There is nothing wrong with political power. How you attain it, and what you do with it, is what matters.

Of course power should be limited and diffuse. But in order to do that, you must first have power to be able to distribute.

[pcosmar]

There is nothing wrong with money.
.

No,,


For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Money and power. A bad combination..

Careful,, that Napoleon complex is starting to show.

[Spikender]

I agree with Collins.

If you have the political power to order the death of American citizens, there is nothing wrong with that power. How you attain it, and how you use it, is what matters.

[A Son of Liberty]

That "power" is objectively illegitimate, immoral and quite frankly illusory.

Whether one uses it or not is immaterial. Much greater minds than Matt - or mine - have indisputably shown this.

[Matt Collins]

Money and power. A bad combination..I am not talking about money AND power (although often times the two can be interchangeable). But there is nothing wrong with possessing either. In fact, if we want to bring about liberty we should seek to acquire both so that we can use it in order to limit the government.

[pcosmar]

I am not talking about money AND power (although often times the two can be interchangeable). But there is nothing wrong with possessing either. In fact, if we want to bring about liberty we should seek to acquire both so that we can use it in order to limit the government.

I doubt that is going to happen..This country needs a reset. and it is long overdue..

The 2nd amendment is the limit on government which is why they want to do away with it.

And incidents like this (or not exactly like this) are to be expected. The unstable fringe first,, and then the rest of the folks.

Enough is enough.

[Occam's Banana]

How many other people do you know blatantly and flagrantly flaunt violations of the law for everyone to see?

Off hand,, everyone in the government,, or employed by the government.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.

LOL. I really like Pete's answer. But here's mine:

How many other people do you know blatantly and flagrantly flaunt violations of the law for everyone to see?

Only everyone who has ever engaged in a little thing called "civil disobedience" ... perhaps you've heard of it?


Of course when you do so expect to feel the wrath of the government.

Of course when you spend all your time bloviating, pontificating, & lecturing other people about how you're gonna run 'em out the Liberty Movement on a rail if they don't toe your line, expect not to notice (or pretend to ignore) things like the fact that Kokesh was perfectly well aware of what the consequences of his actions might be. That (among other things) is precisely why so many of the rest of us admire and respect him ...


Adam wasn't smart about it at all, and he has zero sympathy going for him.

This thread alone is ample proof that Adam has a hell of a lot of sympathy going for him.

Like it or not, Matt, you just don't get to decide such things. And you never will.

So stick that reality in your political "perception" pipe and smoke it ...

[PRB]

That "power" is objectively illegitimate, immoral and quite frankly illusory.

Whether one uses it or not is immaterial. Much greater minds than Matt - or mine - have indisputably shown this.

Legitimacy is by definition human constructed. so while it may be true that almsot everybody agrees it's illegitimate, it's not objective.

Adam can say whatever he wants now, since he'll be in prison soon.

[pcosmar]

These constant attacks remind me of another patriot that was being smeared.

By this guy,, (with SPLC)

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/pls/portal30/off_lookup.get_image?no=1348602
James Nix 's alias Gossip Boy mug shot

Anyone remember "Gossipboy"

[Anti Federalist]

Honestly, no.

Fill us in...


These constant attacks remind me of another patriot that was being smeared.

By this guy,, (with SPLC)

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/pls/portal30/off_lookup.get_image?no=1348602
James Nix 's alias Gossip Boy mug shot

Anyone remember "Gossipboy"

[JK/SEA]

I am not talking about money AND power (although often times the two can be interchangeable). But there is nothing wrong with possessing either. In fact, if we want to bring about liberty we should seek to acquire both so that we can use it in order to limit the government.

and how long is this going to take?...

do you think we can get there in time before my train leaves to take me to the showers?

[Christian Liberty]

What a nutcase. I have a feeling he's been doing too many mushrooms. He's officially crossed the line from fringe to insane.][Because of something he did not say? For real?





Truth.

Yeah, its pretty much where I'm at at this point. I'm almost continually frustrated. So many statements and conversations that many people just consider normal make me cringe and want to yell in frustration.


Said by the man who didn't watch the video and simply read the title.

Then again, can't blame ya; that's what our current crop of humanity does: read headlines and make quick judgment calls without any facts or information. Thanks for being the voice of the people, Advocate.

I did that too at first. But its been pointed out way too many times by now. Now its just annoying.


How many other people do you know blatantly and flagrantly flaunt violations of the law for everyone to see? Of course when you do so expect to feel the wrath of the government.

Adam wasn't smart about it at all, and he has zero sympathy going for him.

I am sympathetic when people are violently attacked by this aggressive government, even when it is obvious that it will happen. You're repulsive to me, Matt.

Am I the only one? We should have a poll. Put Matt to shame.




No,,



Money and power. A bad combination..

Careful,, that Napoleon complex is starting to show.

Money =/= the love of money.


I agree with Collins.

If you have the political power to order the death of American citizens, there is nothing wrong with that power. How you attain it, and how you use it, is what matters.

I disagree. If he just said "power" I would agree. There are going to be authorities of some kind and laws of some kind even in a completely free, anarcho-capitalistic society. But I would not call the power to punish NAP violators "political."


and how long is this going to take?...

do you think we can get there in time before my train leaves to take me to the showers?

Probably not.

[Matt Collins]

and how long is this going to take?...

do you think we can get there in time before my train leaves to take me to the showers?
Yes. On the state level, a lot of times it only takes a couple of years to build up a decent organization than can flex its muscle against the legislature. This of course depends on which state you live in; some are too far gone (CA/IL/NY etc).

[pcosmar]

Honestly, no.

Fill us in...

He was involved in the July4Patriot incident..
Had a couple web sites and a bunch of YouTubes dedicated to the smears,, and have heard he was directly involved with Dyers Ex-wife and the prosecution.

Doing time right now,, and being watched by several..

Mentioned in this article (not where I get my information.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/02/15/837363/-Hate-Rap-Patriot-Version

[JK/SEA]

Yes. On the state level, a lot of times it only takes a couple of years to build up a decent organization than can flex its muscle against the legislature. This of course depends on which state you live in; some are too far gone (CA/IL/NY etc).

hmmm....well, remember this. We're only a few 9/11 type 'incidents' away from completely shredding whats left of the Constitution. Do you think everyone will be onboard with that happening?

[A Son of Liberty]

Legitimacy is by definition human constructed. so while it may be true that almsot everybody agrees it's illegitimate, it's not objective.

Mmm, no. Unless you can show that those who wield it are in some manner extra-human, it is in fact objectively illegitimate.

The authority that those who wield the power of the state claim is over other human beings. We can logically observe that human beings are created equal in that none of us are born with extra- or super-human ability, intelligence, or insight. Those who claim the authority of the state claim powers to which none of the rest of us are entitled. There is nothing particularly special about those people. Their claim is based entirely upon their ability to enforce it. It is a real authority, no doubt - just cross it and get caught, and you'll see. But it is manifestly illegitimate.

[PRB]

We can logically observe that human beings are created equal in that none of us are born with extra- or super-human ability

But many are born with less than human abilities.

[A Son of Liberty]

But many are born with less than human abilities.

Maybe. But those who wield the power of the state are not born with more than human abilities. There is no superiority requirement to obtaining that authority. It's just a superstition.

[PRB]

Maybe. But those who wield the power of the state are not born with more than human abilities.


Why is that important?



There is no superiority requirement to obtaining that authority. It's just a superstition.

Didn't you just contradict yourself? you're not saying that you don't need to be extra human to have authority?

[Matt Collins]

That "power" is objectively illegitimate, immoral and quite frankly illusory. Untrue.

Power is simply defined as getting other people to do what you want them to do. The process of divvying up this power is called politics. This is inseparable from human nature. Power, and politics, exists in every human relationship. It exists in your church, in your club, at your workplace, within your family, etc. It is how humans interact with each other. It simply is 'who has sway over who'.

[JK/SEA]

Untrue.

Power is simply defined as getting other people to do what you want them to do. The process of divvying up this power is called politics. This is inseparable from human nature. Power, and politics, exists in every human relationship. It exists in your church, in your club, at your workplace, within your family, etc. It is how humans interact with each other. It simply is 'who has sway over who'.

So, you're worried Adam Kokesh could get traction with his ideology, and sway others to accept his dogma vs yours....got it.

[amy31416]

You're right. If lazy people like yourself who wallow in a poor defeatist attitude sit back and do nothing to change our trajectory, then nothing will happen.

Oh my fucking god. I'm not a betting person normally, but I bet even your s***** ass wouldn't have the courage to call him lazy to his face.

On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet that most people here would be quite willing to insult you to your ****face.

[Christian Liberty]

Mmm, no. Unless you can show that those who wield it are in some manner extra-human, it is in fact objectively illegitimate.

The authority that those who wield the power of the state claim is over other human beings. We can logically observe that human beings are created equal in that none of us are born with extra- or super-human ability, intelligence, or insight. Those who claim the authority of the state claim powers to which none of the rest of us are entitled. There is nothing particularly special about those people. Their claim is based entirely upon their ability to enforce it. It is a real authority, no doubt - just cross it and get caught, and you'll see. But it is manifestly illegitimate.

To be fair, they do have the "superhuman" ability of lacking consciences and being able to persuade large numbers of people to believe their pontifications have meaning.


Oh my fucking god. I'm not a betting person normally, but I bet even your s***** ass wouldn't have the courage to call him lazy to his face.

On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet that most people here would be quite willing to insult you to your ****face.

I'd be quite willing to insult him to his face.

[pcosmar]

I am not talking about money AND power (although often times the two can be interchangeable).

Yes you are.


There is nothing wrong with political power just like there is nothing wrong with money. If we are going to win back our liberty we must attain power for ourselves so that we can diffuse it. We can't change anything without gaining political power.

And I dislike dishonesty as much as hypocrisy.

[Matt Collins]

So, you're worried Adam Kokesh could get traction with his ideology, and sway others to accept his dogma vs yours....got it.Well, I hope there wouldn't be enough dumb people to follow him, although there is never a shortage.

but no, I am primarily worried that people who act like he does will be used as an example of how all of us are, and that example will be used against us moving forward.

[JK/SEA]

Well, I hope there wouldn't be enough dumb people to follow him, although there is never a shortage.

but no, I am primarily worried that people who act like he does will be used as an example of how all of us are, and that example will be used against us moving forward.

who is us?....me and you?....i hardly know you...

[Occam's Banana]

Untrue.

Power is simply defined as getting other people to do what you want them to do. The process of divvying up this power is called politics. This is inseparable from human nature. Power, and politics, exists in every human relationship. It exists in your church, in your club, at your workplace, within your family, etc. It is how humans interact with each other. It simply is 'who has sway over who'.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ambiguity

[Weston White]

Of course its stacked against them. Which is why people shouldn't do stupid crap like this to get themselves thrown in there. Adam has zero sympathy here, he completely brought all of it on himself, unnecessarily so.

Question: Do you feel that exact same way toward “Obama” and his henchpersons, or are they an exception, having been levied by our society’s ruling-class power elitists?

Pakistan 2004–2014

CIA Drone Strikes
Total strikes: 385
Obama strikes: 334
Total killed: 2,306-3,735
Civilians killed: 416-957
Children killed: 168-202
Injured: 1,089-1,643

Yemen 2002–2014

US Covert Action
Confirmed drone strikes: 64-76
Total killed: 334-488
Civilians killed: 34-83
Children killed: 7
Injured: 78-196

Possible extra drone strikes: 95-115

Total killed: 323-515
Civilians killed: 24-48
Children killed: 6-9
Injured: 85-118

Other covert operations: 14-79

Total killed: 150-386
Civilians killed: 59-88
Children killed: 24-26
Injured: 22-115

Somalia 2007–2014

US Covert Action
Drone strikes: 5-8
Total killed: 10-24
Civilians killed: 0-1
Children killed: 0
Injured: 2-3

Other covert operations: 8-11

Total killed: 40-141
Civilians killed: 7-47
Children killed: 0-2
Injured: 11-21


http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/category/projects/drones/drones-graphs/

[amy31416]

Well, I hope there wouldn't be enough dumb people to follow him, although there is never a shortage.

but no, I am primarily worried that people who act like he does will be used as an example of how all of us are, and that example will be used against us moving forward.

Don't worry, nobody aside from your mom thinks you have any semblance of testicular fortitude or intellect. Hell, I've been mostly an anti-truther, have a big fat degree in science and I don't worry about these things.

Could it be that you're trying to control other people?

Sorry folks, I'm still a nitwit for responding to this person--I'll get a grip eventually.

What I really hope for is that people some day value genuine education over bullshit--political "science" is nothing more than bullshit. People like Matt will hopefully become extinct because they have nothing of value to offer humanity, and nobody will reward such garbage information. People like him keep us down...he probably can't even unplug his own toilet. We also wouldn't need people like Kokesh if we could somehow figure out a way to spread rational thought--nobody should need to be used or die because human beings still act like chimps.

I've had enough--and all I can do is try to protect myself and my offspring from cops, the military, Collins-y types, and those murdery Baptist/Jewish/Christian/Muslim kinds--we should be above this crap by now. What the hell do I have to do, go live underground? On another planet? Just leave other people the fuck alone. And you're especially offensive, Matt, because you think we're as dumb as you are. Most of us aren't. Cut your bullshit. Start another chip-in and see how many people still support your crap.

[Weston White]

How many other people do you know blatantly and flagrantly flaunt violations of the law for everyone to see? Of course when you do so expect to feel the wrath of the government.

...Well, either that or you would expect to enjoy a weekend’s worth of links afterward, followed by a two-week trip to Hawaii or Martha’s Vineyard.

[osan]

Untrue.

Power is simply defined as getting other people to do what you want them to do. The process of divvying up this power is called politics. This is inseparable from human nature.

The tacit implication here being that people cannot help themselves. That is a lie.

[Matt Collins]

We also wouldn't need people like Kokesh if we could somehow figure out a way to spread rational thought--nobody should need to be used or die because human beings still act like chimps.Except that humans are not rational beings all the time.

[JK/SEA]

Except that humans are not rational beings all the time.

yeah....WE know.....lol..

>wink<

[daviddee]

...

[Weston White]

Being that the other thread was locked for whatever reason, I am posting my replies in this one, was in the process of typing them when that happened:


Actually, you are incorrect. Prior to the 14th Amendment, and the incorporation doctrine, the bill of rights did not limit the state governments. The Founders did not set it up that way, and it had no effect on state governments until some legal fiction was just made up.

I do not believe that is wholly accurate (perhaps only partially, but to a very fine point); for instance, state courts have fairly consistently ruled that states cannot outright deny every individual’s right to keep and bear arms, such as the most recent turn again “good cause” letters within California, being that the state has now banned open-carry (Which I believe is still on appeal?), additionally, the states and its courts are obliged to function under its provisions, e.g., due process, habeas corpus, redress, warrants, searches and seizures, etc. The Bill of Rights is merely a container vessel for our constitution’s first ten amendments, and all states recognize the U.S. Constitution as being its land’s most supreme law. America’s founding documents are not so much about jurisdiction, which is not the case for public statutes, but more about solidly based maxims that hold steady and remain timeless, being empirical in nature.

Recall that the Bill of Rights was only drafted shortly after the U.S. Constitution had been ratified, as a means of providing additional security from governmental abuses by the highly concerned Anti-federalists (And it seems that their fears were appropriately justified after all, eh now!)

America’s charter, underpinning our core values, provides that: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Bill of Rights, Preamble: “THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution”

U.S. Constitution, Article IV, Section 2: “The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.”

U.S. Constitution, Article VI: “This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.”


Nothing wrong with open carrying, and open carrying on the street. But doing it illegally hurts the cause, ESPECIALLY when one acts in a threatening and violent psychotic manner in which he did.

So if filming yourself, in an effort to explicitly make a point clear, while sitting in open view of the public and racking a single shell into a shotgun is as you stated “ESPECIALLY threatening” and violently “psychotic”, then what emotional appeal remains for you to label somebody else that say, storms into a darkened movie theater blasting away mothers along with their young children while in full-body armor, setting off smoke grenades and randomly discharging an AR15 with a 100-round magazine?

[Occam's Banana]

Being that the other thread was locked for whatever reason, I am posting my replies in this one, was in the process of typing them when that happened:

There's a (so far still-open) split-off from the other thread over in the Vent: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?454142-Split-off-topic

A lot of stuff from the original thread got moved over there.