Cantor, Brat, and the immigration issue....

[Matt Collins]

I am glad Cantor got the boot, he needed it.

But I wish it had been over an issue other than illegal immigration.


Thoughts?

[Natural Citizen]

I am glad Cantor got the boot, he needed it.

But I wish it had been over an issue other than illegal immigration.


Thoughts?

Well. I don't know. You think we'll begin to see anti-immigration reform spew? Junior has some thinking to do, I suppose.

[BamaAla]

Looks like he distinguished himself on a plethora of issues.

[thoughtomator]

Illegal "immigration" - and I would contest that the word immigration is appropriate here - is a basic Rule of Law issue. It is one thing to argue that the laws should be changed; it is quite another to discard entirely the idea of it, along with ideas like national sovereignty and self-governance.

What has been happening in the mass movement of people from Central America in particular is not immigration, but colonization. Immigration implies an intent to assimilate, and that intent is not present.

Ron Paul noted that while open borders may be the ideal, it is not possible in practice as long as the US maintains a welfare state.

If you are for open borders while a welfare state is in place, you are not helping the cause of liberty. The welfare incentives must go first, then we can open borders. And when that time comes, and we do open borders, we will get a very different kind of immigrant with a completely different set of expectations than the people who are arriving today.

[Origanalist]

Illegal "immigration" - and I would contest that the word immigration is appropriate here - is a basic Rule of Law issue. It is one thing to argue that the laws should be changed; it is quite another to discard entirely the idea of it, along with ideas like national sovereignty and self-governance.

What has been happening in the mass movement of people from Central America in particular is not immigration, but colonization. Immigration implies an intent to assimilate, and that intent is not present.

Ron Paul noted that while open borders may be the ideal, it is not possible in practice as long as the US maintains a welfare state.

If you are for open borders while a welfare state is in place, you are not helping the cause of liberty. The welfare incentives must go first, then we can open borders. And when that time comes, and we do open borders, we will get a very different kind of immigrant with a completely different set of expectations than the people who are arriving today.

+ rep

[green73]

Ooooo, looks like some factions and their assorted hacks aren't happy...

[William R]

I am glad Cantor got the boot, he needed it.

But I wish it had been over an issue other than illegal immigration.


Thoughts?


You're out of touch just like Rand.

Black youth unemployment is 30 percent. Hispanic is over 20 percent, but Rand wants to import millions of new unskilled uneducated people so big business and big agriculture can have cheap labor.

Immigration will doom Rand. He's out of touch with working class people.

[green73]

476514607335358464

476528276341411841

476566448580472832

[Matt Collins]

You're out of touch just like Rand. Don't put words in my mouth, I haven't made a position on it :rolleyes:


But illegal immigration can be a divisive issue among the liberty / conservative crowd.

Some people think that it is a form of trespassing and breaking of the rule of law.

Other people think that the government should not be able to regulate the supply curves of labor.


I agree with both positions.

[Carlybee]

We have thousands of illegal immigrant criminals streaming into Texas every week if not every day. ICE is effectively doing nothing. My son has a Friend from Belgium who lived and worked here for 10 years and got a PH.d from Rice. Because she was considered overqualified for the job she had, immigration would not renew her visa and she had to leave the country. That was going through the legal channels. Who deserves to stay more? Meanwhile crime here is off the chart and our city is being filled with Latino gangs and cartel members and some want to give them a stay in the country free card. Maybe if it's not affecting where you live you are out touch.

[Brian4Liberty]

Brat proved that a politician does not have to kiss the ass of the US Chamber of Commerce, Mark Zuckerberg or racist progressives.

[Valli6]

Cantor also defends NSA data collecting, while Brat calls it a violation of the 4th ammendment.
…another vote for Amash's amendment.

Eric Cantor's loss is bad news for the NSA

http://www.vox.com/2014/6/10/5798554/eric-cantors-loss-is-bad-news-for-the-nsa

[thoughtomator]

But illegal immigration can be a divisive issue among the liberty / conservative crowd.

It shouldn't be. Without the Rule of Law we are in a Hobbesian state of nature where there are no rights you cannot guarantee yourself by force.

Speaking of Hobbes, I strongly recommend reading Leviathan as one of the most significant works of libertarian literature ever created, and one that has deeply informed me of the foundation upon which liberty rests.

No Rule of Law = no liberty. In this, opposing illegal immigration is a vital interest of all libertarians - even if they support open borders in principle.

[Southron]

Although it looks like immigration wasn't the only issue, working class voters do care about immigration and so does the GOP base.

[Matt Collins]

It shouldn't be. Without the Rule of Law we are in a Hobbesian state of nature where there are no rights you cannot guarantee yourself by force.

Speaking of Hobbes, I strongly recommend reading Leviathan as one of the most significant works of libertarian literature ever created, and one that has deeply informed me of the foundation upon which liberty rests.

No Rule of Law = no liberty. In this, opposing illegal immigration is a vital interest of all libertarians - even if they support open borders in principle.

But should bad laws be obeyed?

(and no I am not saying immigration enforcement is a bad law; I am personally split on the issue)

[William R]

Don't put words in my mouth, I haven't made a position on it :rolleyes:


But illegal immigration can be a divisive issue among the liberty / conservative crowd.

Some people think that it is a form of trespassing and breaking of the rule of law.

Other people think that the government should not be able to regulate the supply curves of labor.


I agree with both positions.


Only FAUX liberty people think it is a divisive issue. The idea we let millions cross the border and start giving them access to my wallet flies in the face of reason. We have a huge income transfer mechanism in place in this country and only blithering idiots think open borders are a liberty issue.

[Natural Citizen]

Brat proved that a politician does not have to kiss the ass of the US Chamber of Commerce, Mark Zuckerberg or racist progressives.

Heh. I was going to bring up Zuckerberg and that brood but decided not.

[Vanguard101]

-Slash all benefits to illegals
-end war on drugs
-Easier path to citizenship
-Punish adults who are already here illegally

[ClydeCoulter]

Illegal "immigration" - and I would contest that the word immigration is appropriate here - is a basic Rule of Law issue. It is one thing to argue that the laws should be changed; it is quite another to discard entirely the idea of it, along with ideas like national sovereignty and self-governance.

What has been happening in the mass movement of people from Central America in particular is not immigration, but colonization. Immigration implies an intent to assimilate, and that intent is not present.

Ron Paul noted that while open borders may be the ideal, it is not possible in practice as long as the US maintains a welfare state.

If you are for open borders while a welfare state is in place, you are not helping the cause of liberty. The welfare incentives must go first, then we can open borders. And when that time comes, and we do open borders, we will get a very different kind of immigrant with a completely different set of expectations than the people who are arriving today.

Ron Paul also noted that the same borders that can keep people out, can keep people in.

Be careful not to let the media tell you what people think. The media has a tendency to lie. But, I cannot tell you why they lie on a particular subject.

[thoughtomator]

But should bad laws be obeyed?

Bad laws should be changed - the existence of bad laws does not imply that the Rule of Law itself is also bad. Illegal immigration - and official government acceptance and even encouragement thereof - strikes not against a bad law, but the very concept of being ruled by laws rather than men.

It is one thing for citizens to defy laws, quite another when the government itself does it. The latter case is called despotism.

[Origanalist]

But should bad laws be obeyed?

(and no I am not saying immigration enforcement is a bad law; I am personally split on the issue)

Did that ride along wear off finally Matt?


I agree with both positions.


I am personally split on the issue

Way to take a stand Matt.

[thoughtomator]

Ron Paul also noted that the same borders that can keep people out, can keep people in.

I'm not terribly worried about that, because I don't intend to go anywhere. I'm an American and I will stand my ground here amongst the millions of other Americans who will do the same. If this country goes down the hole into full-scale open tyranny, it will be over my dead body - literally.

I once knew a man who spent the entirety of World War II fighting the Nazis from inside the borders of Austria. I will do the same, should it come to that. Thanks to the primary outcome today, there is less of a chance of ending up there than there was yesterday.

[dillo]

It would be nice if we could have open borders, however with the current entitlement state its a recipe for disaster.

[RonPaulMall]

I am glad Cantor got the boot, he needed it.

But I wish it had been over an issue other than illegal immigration.


Thoughts?

Disagree. If Rand Paul is going to win in 2016, "the War on the Middle Class" will have to be the central theme of his campaign. What is going on with immigration in this country right now is an important pillar in that theme. Unbridled immigration keeps wages down and destroys the middle class. So Brat's victory is very good news for our cause. Of course, Rand needs to get himself on the right side of this issue. He's been vague enough so far that he isn't fixed in to any positions. If I were advising Rand, I'd instruct him to go an offensive about what is going on at the border right now ASAP. He needs to hammer Obama on this.

[fr33]

Illegal "immigration" - and I would contest that the word immigration is appropriate here - is a basic Rule of Law issue. It is one thing to argue that the laws should be changed; it is quite another to discard entirely the idea of it, along with ideas like national sovereignty and self-governance.

What has been happening in the mass movement of people from Central America in particular is not immigration, but colonization. Immigration implies an intent to assimilate, and that intent is not present.

Ron Paul noted that while open borders may be the ideal, it is not possible in practice as long as the US maintains a welfare state.

If you are for open borders while a welfare state is in place, you are not helping the cause of liberty. The welfare incentives must go first, then we can open borders. And when that time comes, and we do open borders, we will get a very different kind of immigrant with a completely different set of expectations than the people who are arriving today.

Immigration is natural and predates the concept of "the state".

[Feeding the Abscess]

You're out of touch just like Rand.

Black youth unemployment is 30 percent. Hispanic is over 20 percent, but Rand wants to import millions of new unskilled uneducated people so big business and big agriculture can have cheap labor.

Immigration will doom Rand. He's out of touch with working class people.

People can be out of work and there can also be labor shortages in specific fields. Stop looking at economic matters from a macro perspective.

[Natural Citizen]

I wonder what Mitch McConnell is pondering. :rolleyes:

[Brian4Liberty]

Not the immigration issue:

472036907028086784

[Brian4Liberty]

Not the immigration issue:

469506330676707329

[Brian4Liberty]

Not the immigration issue:

468792733399011329

[Brian4Liberty]

Not the immigration issue:


Fiscal Responsibility

Our national debt has skyrocketed, reaching over $17 trillion dollars. What our leaders in Washington fail to mention is the $127 Trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities (see U.S. Debt Clock). This lack of leadership on both sides of the aisle threatens our nation’s stability and long term growth and forces an undue burden on our children and grandchildren. We must balance the federal budget by reducing spending. I will support a balanced budget amendment which will force Congress to reign in the out of control federal spending and to restore confidence in the American economy.

http://davebratforcongress.com/issues/

[Brian4Liberty]

Not the immigration issue:


Education

As an economist and educator for eighteen years, I understand the value of a good education. This is why I oppose top down approaches by the Federal Government such as Common Core and No Child Left Behind. I will support efforts to place Virginia’s teachers, parents, and local officials, who best understand the needs of the community, in control of our education system.

http://davebratforcongress.com/issues/

[Brian4Liberty]

Not the immigration issue:


Individual Freedoms

The federal government’s abuse of our freedoms has spun out of control. Whether it is the NSA violating our 4th Amendment Rights by collecting phone records, the IRS violating our 1st Amendment rights by targeting conservative organizations, or President Obama violating our 5th Amendment rights with the indefinite detention of American citizens, our freedoms have been under attack and they must be restored.

http://davebratforcongress.com/issues/

[BamaAla]

Don't put words in my mouth, I haven't made a position on it :rolleyes:


But illegal immigration can be a divisive issue among the liberty / conservative crowd.

Some people think that it is a form of trespassing and breaking of the rule of law.

Other people think that the government should not be able to regulate the supply curves of labor.


I agree with both positions.


Who in the happy hell cares if it "can be a divisive issue?" The guy just knocked off the house majority leader. Honestly, what's your game?

[AuH20]

We have Cantor inviting in people with money that isn't his!!!

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/06/08/Dave-Brat-Illegal-Immigrants-Pouring-into-USA-After-Cantor-Announced-Kids-Are-Welcome


"The central policy issue in this race has become Cantor’s absolute determination to pass an amnesty bill. Cantor is the No. 1 cheerleader in Congress for amnesty," Brat had previously written. "This is not the Republican way to fix our economy and labor markets."

Brat said Cantor also doesn't believe in the 10th Amendment and represents the "one party of money" that conservatives and Tea Partiers are challenging. He blasted him for his "arrogance" and elitism for only answering to the Chamber of Commerce instead of the district's voters.

"He sold out the district," Brat said. "In the midst of the worst labor markets that we have, he decides to deliver for the chamber instead of for the district."

[fr33]

Who in the happy hell cares if it "can be a divisive issue?" The guy just knocked off the house majority leader. Honestly, what's your game?
There's arguments on other topics going about Rand, "illegal"' immigration, and Cantor. Collins is usually a douche but he has his finger on the pulse of what's happening. One of the popular spins is that "Cantor lost because of immigration reform."

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453734-Rand-Paul-to-Discuss-%91Need-for-Immigration-Reform%92

[HOLLYWOOD]

Not the immigration issue:

472036907028086784
Lohn Boehner needs to go ASAP! ~Those 28 GOP members who voted to pass the bill should not be forgotten:


GOP Fascist RINOs

Speaker John A. Boehner of Ohio, Majority Leader
House Leader Eric Cantor of Virginia,
Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy of California,
Chief Deputy Whip Peter Roskam of Illinois
Ways and Means Chairman Dave Camp of Michigan
Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa of California
Appropriations Chairman Harold Rogers of Kentucky
Foreign Affairs Chairman Ed Royce of California
Armed Services Chairman Howard “Buck” McKeon of California
Natural Resources Chairman Doc Hastings of Washington.


GOP Progressives

Charlie Dent of Pennsylvania
three New Yorkers: Michael G. Grimm, Peter T. King and Richard Hanna.

Retiring Nothing to Lose, Republicans

The politically tricky vote for a debt ceiling was made easier for those Republicans who are retiring,
Frank R. Wolf of Virginia
Jon Runyan of New Jersey
Howard Coble of North Carolina


GOP Liberals

David Valadao and Gary G. Miller of California
Frank A. LoBiondo of New Jersey
Patrick Meehan of Pennsylvania
Dave Reichert of Washington

http://kwout.com/cutout/m/k2/sa/z8p_bor.jpg
Twitter / SenateDems: Speaker Boehner, keep the Progress ... (https://twitter.com/SenateDems/status/433383658720751616/photo/1)

[Occam's Banana]

But I wish it had been over an issue other than illegal immigration.

Why should we think that Brat did not win due to any issues other than illegal immigration?
Who is telling you that Brat did not win "over an issue other than illegal immigration" ... ?

FTA: http://news.antiwar.com/2014/06/10/house-gop-leader-defeated-by-anti-nsa-challenger/

Now watch the bipartisan Washington Establishment go into shock and try to attribute their shocking defeat to low turnout. There’s already talk it’s all about the immigration issue, but this underplays – perhaps deliberately – Brat’s explicit identification with libertarianism in this interview (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/11/Tea-Party-s-David-Challenges-Eric-Cantor-s-Goliath) with Breitbart.com.

(Oh, but wait, let me guess: Raimondo's just a flake and doesn't bear being paid any attention. Amirite?)

[acptulsa]

Why should we think that Brat did not win due to any issues other than illegal immigration?
Who is telling you that Brat did not win "over an issue other than illegal immigration" ... ?

(Oh, but wait, let me guess: Raimondo's just a flake and doesn't bear being paid any attention. Amirite?)

Everything but the basic buzz goes--but you already knew, didn't you?--right over Teh Collinz' head.

[enhanced_deficit]

Wonder if US tax payers aid to foreign blowback welfare states & WTC1/2/7 were also on the back of voters minds?


Cantor: Take Israel out of foreign aid

WASHINGTON (JTA) — A Republican Congress would seek to remove funding for Israel from the foreign operations budget, a GOP leader said. U.S. Rep. Eric Cantor, the Republican whip and the only Jewish Republican in the House of Representatives, told JTA that a GOP-led House would seek to defund nations that do not share U.S. interests, even if it meant rejecting the president’s foreign operations budget.
Cantor, of Virginia, said he wants to protect funding for Israel should that situation arise.
"Part of the dilemma is that Israel has been put in the overall foreign aid looping," he said when asked about the increasing tendency of Republicans in recent years to vote against foreign operations appropriations. "I’m hoping we can see some kind of separation in terms of tax dollars going to Israel."

Read more: http://www.jta.org/2010/10/24/news-opinion/united-states/cantor-take-israel-out-of-foreign-aid (http://www.jta.org/2010/10/24/news-opinion/united-states/cantor-take-israel-out-of-foreign-aid#ixzz34JXio8LW)

[erowe1]

Illegal "immigration" - and I would contest that the word immigration is appropriate here - is a basic Rule of Law issue. It is one thing to argue that the laws should be changed; it is quite another to discard entirely the idea of it, along with ideas like national sovereignty and self-governance.

No, it's not another thing. It's the same thing.

If manmade laws restricting immigration are wrong (i.e. if they violate the Creator's laws), then disobeying them is not wrong. If you believe those manmade laws are wrong, and if you believe in the rule of law, as you say, then you positively must not support enforcing those manmade laws.

[eduardo89]

You're out of touch just like Rand.

Black youth unemployment is 30 percent. Hispanic is over 20 percent, but Rand wants to import millions of new unskilled uneducated people so big business and big agriculture can have cheap labor.

Immigration will doom Rand. He's out of touch with working class people.

I have never heard Rand say he wants to import any unskilled labour. What Rand has said is that those inside the US should be given temporary work visas. They're here anyway, they aren't going to be deported, so let's give them temporary work visas.

[Matt Collins]

The idea we let millions cross the border and start giving them access to my wallet flies in the face of reason. We have a huge income transfer mechanism in place in this country and only blithering idiots think open borders are a liberty issue.You are confusing immigration with welfare; the two are not the same.

[Matt Collins]

Unbridled immigration keeps wages down and destroys the middle class. Yes, but low wages also means lower prices.

[Matt Collins]

(Oh, but wait, let me guess: Raimondo's just a flake and doesn't bear being paid any attention. Amirite?)Precisely.

[nobody's_hero]

I wonder if Cuccinelli's run had something to do with it, as well.

Cantor and his minions did everything they could do to sink his campaign. If I lived in Virginia, and were a conservative, I'd be pretty pissed that my state is turning blue with all the D.C. transplants, and yet one of my own congressmen wouldn't even come out to help keep the governor's office.

[Occam's Banana]

Why should we think that Brat did not win due to any issues other than illegal immigration?
Who is telling you that Brat did not win "over an issue other than illegal immigration" ... ?

[Raimondo quote]

(Oh, but wait, let me guess: Raimondo's just a flake and doesn't bear being paid any attention. Amirite?)



(Oh, but wait, let me guess: Raimondo's just a flake and doesn't bear being paid any attention. Amirite?)Precisely.

LOL :rolleyes: I knew you would avoid answering the other questions I asked in favor of playing into the "easy shot" I offered with the rhetorical parenthetical.

*sigh* You're just too predictable, Matt ...

[William R]

People can be out of work and there can also be labor shortages in specific fields. Stop looking at economic matters from a macro perspective.


When there's a labor shortage wages begin to rise. Incomes have been stagnant for the bottom 2/3rds of the country for 30+ years. Some of that is due to greater benefits like employer provided health inaurance, but immigration is the largest driving factor. We are not selective in who we admit. Immigration should work for the country not for the privileged few. Year after year the country has been flooded by unskilled uneducated people. Who cares about our working class?? The public schools their kids attend. Hospitals going broke due to free care for illegals. Mass immigration with a welfare state is insanity.

A rising tide should lift all boats, but these days only the top one percenters like me are really getting ahead. Big house on a beautiful lake, another house in Breckenridge Colorado.

[mosquitobite]

This is what I see - the establishment conservatives want to paint it as an immigration issue. This is an easy sound bite reasoning that they can use on talk radio.

They want absolutely NOTHING reported on how they pissed off grassroots conservatives. Stuff like that might infect the heartland.

[eduardo89]

Unbridled immigration keeps wages down and destroys the middle class.

Not true.

[AuH20]

The republicans have become corporate creatures and this illegal immigration sellout is proof positive of it. When you become a willing accomplice to the deep state, massage Wall Street and kowtow to Silicon Valley, then you have some major issues.

[thoughtomator]

No, it's not another thing. It's the same thing.

If manmade laws restricting immigration are wrong (i.e. if they violate the Creator's laws), then disobeying them is not wrong. If you believe those manmade laws are wrong, and if you believe in the rule of law, as you say, then you positively must not support enforcing those manmade laws.

Again, it's a completely different animal if a citizen defies a bad law. When the government itself decides what laws it will and will not enforce, the Rule of Law and all its protections disappear and we have an in-fact despotism instead of a Constitutional government.

[erowe1]

Again, it's a completely different animal if a citizen defies a bad law. When the government itself decides what laws it will and will not enforce, the Rule of Law and all its protections disappear and we have an in-fact despotism instead of a Constitutional government.

The rule of law does not entail having the government enforce unjust laws. An unjust law is no law at all. The government is positively obligated not to enforce those laws. To do so would violate the rule of law. Whether or not someone has some manmade label of "citizen" is irrelevant.

[BamaAla]

The rule of law does not entail having the government enforce unjust laws. An unjust law is no law at all. The government is positively obligated not to enforce those laws. To do so would violate the rule of law. Whether or not someone has some manmade label of "citizen" is irrelevant.

I think you just made that up. Either way, it makes zero sense.

[rpfocus]

You're out of touch just like Rand.

Black youth unemployment is 30 percent. Hispanic is over 20 percent, but Rand wants to import millions of new unskilled uneducated people so big business and big agriculture can have cheap labor.

Immigration will doom Rand. He's out of touch with working class people.

+ Rep

[rpfocus]

We have thousands of illegal immigrant criminals streaming into Texas every week if not every day. ICE is effectively doing nothing. My son has a Friend from Belgium who lived and worked here for 10 years and got a PH.d from Rice. Because she was considered overqualified for the job she had, immigration would not renew her visa and she had to leave the country. That was going through the legal channels. Who deserves to stay more? Meanwhile crime here is off the chart and our city is being filled with Latino gangs and cartel members and some want to give them a stay in the country free card. Maybe if it's not affecting where you live you are out touch.

Yep, if you live in a border state, it's a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY! We've already seen what's coming to the rest of the country while they are being complacent. They won't change their views until their hospitals start closing down, and their schools become 70+ percent Latino. Then they'll want to do something about it. By that time we'll be living in Aztlan. And if you think Aztlan isn't on the agenda, tell that to MEChA.

[rpfocus]

It would be nice if we could have open borders, however with the current entitlement state its a recipe for disaster.

Open borders nice? Well as long as they go straight to your house I don't have a problem with it. Otherwise, no effin thanks.

[erowe1]

I think you just made that up. Either way, it makes zero sense.

Nope. I'm not the originator of that idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_iniusta_non_est_lex

See also Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail.

[acptulsa]

Matt.

Does it really need to be said that the evisceration of the middle class will ultimately cause prices to drop everywhere but at your local Rolls Royce/Bentley dealer?

Really?


I agree with both positions.

People with balls don't straddle fences.

For obvious reasons.

[Giuliani was there on 911]

There's something seriously wrong with you if you don't think we need to stop immigration from Mexico

[BamaAla]

Nope. I'm not the originator of that idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_iniusta_non_est_lex

See also Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail.

Obeying unjust laws is a long way from enforcing unjust laws when it comes to the "rule of law." One of the bedrocks of rule of law is the predictable enforcement of statutory law; one of the surest signs of tyranny is the selective enforcement of statutory law.

[erowe1]

Obeying unjust laws is a long way from enforcing unjust laws when it comes to the "rule of law." One of the bedrocks of rule of law is the predictable enforcement of statutory law; one of the surest signs of tyranny is the selective enforcement of statutory law.

Not statutory law, but actual law. A statute that is unjust is not a law. Nor is a statute that's unconstitutional. If these statutes are being selectively enforced, it's not the cases where they're not enforced that undermine rule of law, it's the cases where they are.

[AuH20]

There's something seriously wrong with you if you don't think we need to stop immigration from Mexico

Yup. Liberty ain't coming from south of the border. That's for sure. Only tyranny.

[erowe1]

There's something seriously wrong with you if you don't think we need to stop immigration from Mexico

Stop it how?

[BamaAla]

Not statutory law, but actual law. A statute that is unjust is not a law. Nor is a statute that's unconstitutional. If these statutes are being selectively enforced, it's not the cases where they're not enforced that undermine rule of law, it's the cases where they are.

Statutory law is law. Statutes that are unjust or unconstitutional are law. There is a process by which those laws are repealed, rendered moot, or struck, but they are law during their lives.

[Giuliani was there on 911]

Stop it how?

There's a few things, end birthright citizenship, cut off services for illegals, put in place stiff punishments for people who hire illegals , and then you can start deporting people. Stop treating libertarianism like its a religion and start looking at the facts .

The "browner" this country gets the less liberty there will be. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but for the most part the only people who care about liberty and limited gov are white people, and the less of them that make up the electorate the lesser the chances are that we have liberty minded candidates elected . The way things are going now the US could easily turn into a one party rule nation similar to California by 2050

[erowe1]

Statutory law is law. Statutes that are unjust or unconstitutional are law.

No they aren't.

[AuH20]

There's a few things, end birthright citizenship, cut off services for illegals, put in place stiff punishments for people who hire illegals , and then you can start deporting people. Stop treating libertarianism like its a religion and start looking at the facts .

The "browner" this country gets the less liberty there will be. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but for the most part the only people who care about liberty and limited gov are white people, and the less of them that make up the electorate the lesser the chances are that we have liberty minded candidates elected . The way things are going now the US could easily turn into a one party rule nation similar to California by 2050

Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras and Mexico are all bastions of liberty. heh.

[erowe1]

There's a few things, end birthright citizenship, cut off services for illegals, put in place stiff punishments for people who hire illegals , and then you can start deporting people. Stop treating libertarianism like its a religion and start looking at the facts .

The "browner" this country gets the less liberty there will be. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but for the most part the only people who care about liberty and limited gov are white people, and the less of them that make up the electorate the lesser the chances are that we have liberty minded candidates elected . The way things are going now the US could easily turn into a one party rule nation similar to California by 2050

I'm with you on everything except deporting people and the brownness issue.

[Southron]

Yup. Liberty ain't coming from south of the border. That's for sure. Only tyranny.

You mean you dont want a government like those in Mexico and Central America?

What about their rich traditions in llimited government? Surely the people will bring those with them.

[fisharmor]

Maybe if it's not affecting where you live you are out touch.
Well, I DO live in the same state as those two, and it's not affecting where I live.
Maybe if Texas was as permissive with its gun rights as Virginia it wouldn't be a problem there either.
Because you know, I hate to say it, but they aren't.


No Rule of Law = no liberty. In this, opposing illegal immigration is a vital interest of all libertarians - even if they support open borders in principle.

(Breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in. Breathe out. )

Ok, Mr. Rule of Law, what part of the US Constitution and/or the English language are you going to torture into supporting restrictions on immigration today?

Let's do have this conversation for the hundredth time here. Maybe this time you all can convince me that it says something it clearly doesn't say.


I wonder if Cuccinelli's run had something to do with it, as well.

Cooch is a dirtbag prosecutor who made a career ruining people's lives on technicalities.
He openly supported sodomy laws not because he's anti-gay, but specifically to have an extra law on the books to use to throw people in jail whom he didn't like.
This is a matter of public record and he actually set up a campaign website for the sole purpose of illuminating us all to these facts.

I think the liberty movement should start actually supporting liberty minded people. The "conservatives" that supported Cooch are the same "conservatives" that have no moral problem with cops that tie people up to chairs and pepper spray them to death, because, you know, they're cops.
Cooch lost because there are enough people here who can actually read between the lines to throw an election. And for no other reason.

[bunklocoempire]

Illegal "immigration" - and I would contest that the word immigration is appropriate here - is a basic Rule of Law issue. It is one thing to argue that the laws should be changed; it is quite another to discard entirely the idea of it, along with ideas like national sovereignty and self-governance.

What has been happening in the mass movement of people from Central America in particular is not immigration, but colonization. Immigration implies an intent to assimilate, and that intent is not present.

Ron Paul noted that while open borders may be the ideal, it is not possible in practice as long as the US maintains a welfare state.

If you are for open borders while a welfare state is in place, you are not helping the cause of liberty. The welfare incentives must go first, then we can open borders. And when that time comes, and we do open borders, we will get a very different kind of immigrant with a completely different set of expectations than the people who are arriving today.

+ rep

[Matt Collins]

Matt.

Does it really need to be said that the evisceration of the middle class will ultimately cause prices to drop everywhere but at your local Rolls Royce/Bentley dealer?

Really?



People with balls don't straddle fences.

For obvious reasons.
I am not an economist, so I really do not feel informed enough to take a position although I agree with both positions.

[AuH20]

You mean you dont want a government like those in Mexico and Central America?

What about their rich traditions in llimited government? Surely the people will bring those with them.

The same people demanding citizenship and pleading for government services? What could possibly go wrong?

[Carlybee]

It's not just an immigration issue..it's a national security issue when there are thousands of criminals pouring into the country every day. Something you would never see on any border but the southern border.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

There's something seriously wrong with you if you don't think we need to stop immigration from Mexico

There's something seriously wrong with you if you want to continue to steal my money and tell me who I can and can't interact with on my own property.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

It's not just an immigration issue..it's a national security issue when there are thousands of criminals pouring into the country every day. Something you would never see on any border but the southern border.

You mean like the criminals who have the freedom to move from Chicago and Detroit to anywhere else in the country? Guess you better pay for walls and checkpoints around those cities.

[fisharmor]

NIU, I regret that I have only one rep to give.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but for the most part the only people who care about liberty and limited gov are white people

You mean like the same freedom loving white people that got behind Mitt Romney, John McCain, and George W. Bush? White Power!

[Pericles]

Cantor also defends NSA data collecting, while Brat calls it a violation of the 4th ammendment.
…another vote for Amash's amendment.

That and gun control and any number of other issues. The problem with DC wannabes is the rapid loss of perspectives on reality.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Yup. Liberty ain't coming from south of the border. That's for sure. Only tyranny.

Bullshit. It's the Mexicans I see in Chicago fighting the alderman over food cart licensing and permits.

But no, you're right, they're lazy tyrannical leaches.

[AuH20]

Bullshit. It's the Mexicans I see in Chicago fighting the alderman over food cart licensing and permits.

But no, you're right, they're lazy tyrannical leaches.

They are human beings vulnerable to hunger and lies. Same as many domestic Americans. Don't need any more to rehabilitate.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

What has been happening in the mass movement of people from Central America in particular is not immigration, but colonization. Immigration implies an intent to assimilate, and that intent is not present.

Pretty sure the same argument was used against the Chinese, Irish, Italians, and Polish during the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

They are human beings vulnerable to hunger and lies. Same as many domestic Americans. Don't need any more to rehabilitate.

I'll take them over the lazy American citizens who vote for endless war, drug prohibition, and corporate bailouts.

[AuH20]

I'll take them over the lazy American citizens who vote for endless war, drug prohibition, and corporate bailouts.

True, but we can't deport those problems. It's a numbers issue right now.

[eduardo89]

Ecuador, Guatemala, Honduras and Mexico are all bastions of liberty. heh.

In regards to taxation, Mexico is much more free than the US. The majority of Mexicans do not pay a cent in income tax nor do they declare anything. Also, Mexico's tax revenues as a percentage of GDP is much smaller than the US's.

[belian78]

Ron Paul also noted that the same borders that can keep people out, can keep people in.

Be careful not to let the media tell you what people think. The media has a tendency to lie. But, I cannot tell you why they lie on a particular subject.

FALSE

He said that 'walls' meant to keep people out, can also keep people in. You gonna tell someone to not listen to liars, then don't lie yourself.

[belian78]

Immigration is natural and predates the concept of "the state".
Way to gloss over his/her entire point.

[belian78]

There's arguments on other topics going about Rand, "illegal"' immigration, and Cantor. Collins is usually a douche but he has his finger on the pulse of what's happening. One of the popular spins is that "Cantor lost because of immigration reform."

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453734-Rand-Paul-to-Discuss-%91Need-for-Immigration-Reform%92
No, that's what Matt and those of his ilk WANT the win to be about, or at least want to spin it that way.

[belian78]

You are confusing immigration with welfare; the two are not the same.

Are you going to deny that both issues at present are force multipliers when talking about the health of our economy?

[Carlybee]

You mean like the criminals who have the freedom to move from Chicago and Detroit to anywhere else in the country? Guess you better pay for walls and checkpoints around those cities.

Move your ass down here and then we'll chat.

[Henry Rogue]

NIU, I regret that I have only one rep to give.

Covered

[Carlybee]

I'm not advocating for walls. I'm advocating for security. For some of you who don't live in border states, who don't live in large cities where cartel members are relocating to, who don't live in large cities where every crime you can think of is through the roof, for those who don't have to feed, clothe and jail these criminals when they do get caught committing crime, I say you don't know wtf it's about. I bet if criminals were pouring into your state by the thousands and you were told tough doo doo, if you could no longer feel safe going to the grocery store, etc., we would hear a different story. There comes a point when you either protect your own borders or just have a frickin free for all. What's more important to you? Your family's safety or making an ideological point? Oh yeah...I guess I can arm myself with an AR15 when I need to go get gas but I would probably get shot by the cops.

Do I need to point out our tax dollars are paying for border patrol agents to sit on their butts and look the other way? How's that waste of tax dollars sitting with you? How about we just opened up the 3rd Air Force base to house all these illegal kids? Think that's free?

[Carlybee]

In regards to taxation, Mexico is much more free than the US. The majority of Mexicans do not pay a cent in income tax nor do they declare anything. Also, Mexico's tax revenues as a percentage of GDP is much smaller than the US's.

Fuck Mexico.

[AuH20]

Fuck Mexico.

Mexico is a more of an oppressive oligarchy than the U.S. No doubt.

[Carlybee]

Mexico is a more of an oppressive oligarchy than the U.S. No doubt.

No kidding....if people were streaming into their country they would all be in jail..or shot.

[eduardo89]

No kidding....if people were streaming into their country they would all be in jail..or shot.

Mexico does jail and deport illegals. The US could learn a lot from them.

[Carlybee]

Mexico does jail and deport illegals. The US could learn a lot from them.

Yeah..they just don't want us to jail and deport illegal Mexicans. Oh and I neg rep back.

[Matt Collins]

No, that's what Matt and those of his ilk WANT the win to be about, or at least want to spin it that way.
huh? lolwut?

:confused: :rolleyes:

I never wrote anything as such. And who the hell are "my ilk"?

[Matt Collins]

Are you going to deny that both issues at present are force multipliers when talking about the health of our economy?
Welfare should not exist in its present form with the government doling out money stolen from others.

[RandallFan]

The massive increase in legal immigration is probably more opposed than amnesty.

Most of the discussion will be opposition to what Big Business and Obama wants.

Dave Brat hit Cantor on high skill and low skilled workers.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Move your ass down here and then we'll chat.

Chicago is the murder capital of the country. I grew up in the south side, near Cicero and 20 minutes from Englewood. I'm very familiar with what gang environments look and feel like.

[rpfocus]

In regards to taxation, Mexico is much more free than the US. The majority of Mexicans do not pay a cent in income tax nor do they declare anything. Also, Mexico's tax revenues as a percentage of GDP is much smaller than the US's.

And how much do they pay out via corruption?

VIVA LOS FEDERALES!

[Tywysog Cymru]

Pretty sure the same argument was used against the Chinese, Irish, Italians, and Polish during the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

Yes, and they came from countries with much worse governments than that of modern Mexico.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I'm not advocating for walls. I'm advocating for security. For some of you who don't live in border states, who don't live in large cities where cartel members are relocating to, who don't live in large cities where every crime you can think of is through the roof, for those who don't have to feed, clothe and jail these criminals when they do get caught committing crime, I say you don't know wtf it's about. I bet if criminals were pouring into your state by the thousands and you were told tough doo doo, if you could no longer feel safe going to the grocery store, etc., we would hear a different story. There comes a point when you either protect your own borders or just have a frickin free for all. What's more important to you? Your family's safety or making an ideological point? Oh yeah...I guess I can arm myself with an AR15 when I need to go get gas but I would probably get shot by the cops.

Do I need to point out our tax dollars are paying for border patrol agents to sit on their butts and look the other way? How's that waste of tax dollars sitting with you? How about we just opened up the 3rd Air Force base to house all these illegal kids? Think that's free?

Where do I even start.

#1 - "I'm not advocating for walls. I'm advocating for security." Yes, you are advocating for walls because you are denying human beings the freedom to move. It may not be a physical wall but you are forcibly blocking people out one way or the other.

#2 - "For some of you who don't live in border states [...] I say you don't know wtf it's about." I don't need to live in a border state to know that immigration is not the root of the problems there. End drug prohibition and you strike a blow to the cartels. It's the same problems I'm familiar with in Chicago.

#3 - "What's more important to you? Your family's safety or making an ideological point?" Rudy Giulianni, is that you? Guess we better trade in the rest of our freedoms for security according to your logic.

#4 - "Do I need to point out our tax dollars are paying for border patrol agents to sit on their butts and look the other way? How's that waste of tax dollars sitting with you?" - Um, how about you not steal my tax dollars and just allow people to freely interact with one another on their private property?

[NIU Students for Liberty]

You're out of touch just like Rand.

Black youth unemployment is 30 percent. Hispanic is over 20 percent, but Rand wants to import millions of new unskilled uneducated people so big business and big agriculture can have cheap labor.

Immigration will doom Rand. He's out of touch with working class people.

If you lose your job to an "unskilled uneducated people", you are a loser. Plain and simple.

[Carlybee]

Chicago is the murder capital of the country. I grew up in the south side, near Cicero and 20 minutes from Englewood. I'm very familiar with what gang environments look and feel like.


Well sorry then, but we will just have to agree to disagree. It would be one thing if we were allowed to protect ourselves but nowadays you are likely to be the one jailed for that so all bets are off. I can't do anything about criminals who already live here but I don't have to like the current open door policy. Border patrol agents are on record saying the majority of the ones coming in are criminal elements. Do our tax dollars not pay for national security ? Why do we even bother with legal immigration? My husband had to jump through hoops to immigrate from Canada. I guess I should've marred a vato..my bad.

[Carlybee]

Where do I even start.

#1 - "I'm not advocating for walls. I'm advocating for security." Yes, you are advocating for walls because you are denying human beings the freedom to move. It may not be a physical wall but you are forcibly blocking people out one way or the other.

#2 - "For some of you who don't live in border states [...] I say you don't know wtf it's about." I don't need to live in a border state to know that immigration is not the root of the problems there. End drug prohibition and you strike a blow to the cartels. It's the same problems I'm familiar with in Chicago.

#3 - "What's more important to you? Your family's safety or making an ideological point?" Rudy Giulianni, is that you? Guess we better trade in the rest of our freedoms for security according to your logic.

#4 - "Do I need to point out our tax dollars are paying for border patrol agents to sit on their butts and look the other way? How's that waste of tax dollars sitting with you?" - Um, how about you not steal my tax dollars and just allow people to freely interact with one another on their private property?

I could give a damn if cartel members have freedom. My taxes pay for Texas property. Juan Gonzalez of the Acme Cartel does not pay taxes for Texas property. He just comes here to traffic drugs, traffic people, and commit other various and sundry crimes. Therefore he is treading on me and on my state's sovereignty. It's easy to say end the drug war but that's not happening is it? So in the meantime we have cops turning on citizens and ignoring illegal alien criminals. At one time it may have been mostly just people coming here for work but that is not necessarily the case any longer.

Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."

[RandallFan]

If you lose your job to an "unskilled uneducated people", you are a loser. Plain and simple.

That does not work politically. That's the most potent part of the debate that the open borders people are heartless.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

That does not work politically. That's the most potent part of the debate that the open borders people are heartless.

I wasn't talking about politics, I was calling out bullshit emotional tactics that are used by anti-immigration proponents.

[P3ter_Griffin]

Do I gotta wear a clan hat to join this conversation?

[Southron]

If you lose your job to an "unskilled uneducated people", you are a loser. Plain and simple.

If the American citizen is a casuality on the road to libertopia, so be it, eh?

[Giuliani was there on 911]

There's something seriously wrong with you if you want to continue to steal my money and tell me who I can and can't interact with on my own property.
What , I'm stealing your money ? First off I don't think you even own any property but your property doesn't exist independent of all other properties . You can't do anything you want on your property if it harms others . Whether you like it or not the USA is a nation and we're all apart of it. It's not some no man's land where anyone can just come set up shop

You mean like the same freedom loving white people that got behind Mitt Romney, John McCain, and George W. Bush? White Power!

Well actually yeah , all those guys may be lying scum but they all campaigned on conservative principles . The sheep had no choice but to vote for them. I'm pretty sure if the media treated Ron Paul with the same respect they treated Romney and them that all those whites would have voted for him instead


Bullshit. It's the Mexicans I see in Chicago fighting the alderman over food cart licensing and permits.

But no, you're right, they're lazy tyrannical leaches. lol stop being so naive

Pretty sure the same argument was used against the Chinese, Irish, Italians, and Polish during the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

Do you seriously believe in egalitarianism ?

[P3ter_Griffin]

Illegal "immigration" - and I would contest that the word immigration is appropriate here - is a basic Rule of Law issue. It is one thing to argue that the laws should be changed; it is quite another to discard entirely the idea of it, along with ideas like national sovereignty and self-governance.

What has been happening in the mass movement of people from Central America in particular is not immigration, but colonization. Immigration implies an intent to assimilate, and that intent is not present.

Why does it imply the intent of assimilation? Can someone not enjoy freedom and the opportunity freedom presents to practice their own beliefs/practices/way of life? A Constitution should protect our natural rights, so there should be no need to fear different people under the pretense of being forced to "their kind of different".


Ron Paul noted that while open borders may be the ideal, it is not possible in practice as long as the US maintains a welfare state.

If you are for open borders while a welfare state is in place, you are not helping the cause of liberty. The welfare incentives must go first, then we can open borders. And when that time comes, and we do open borders, we will get a very different kind of immigrant with a completely different set of expectations than the people who are arriving today.

There is no need to pick one to do first and promise to do the other later. Two birds one stone would be the saying for it, if you actually believed in open borders.

[RandallFan]

Which liberty candidates ran and won on supporting immigration reform or expanding it? Flake had to oppose rewarding illegals to win the primary and not spill enough third party votes. Flake is the most hated Senator after McCain. Kelly Ayotte is number 3 because she is a neocon and for amnesty.

[Cutlerzzz]

The "browner" this country gets the less liberty there will be. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but for the most part the only people who care about liberty and limited gov are white people

I wish more anti immigrant advocates were this honest.

[P3ter_Griffin]

It shouldn't be. Without the Rule of Law we are in a Hobbesian state of nature where there are no rights you cannot guarantee yourself by force.

Speaking of Hobbes, I strongly recommend reading Leviathan as one of the most significant works of libertarian literature ever created, and one that has deeply informed me of the foundation upon which liberty rests.

No Rule of Law = no liberty. In this, opposing illegal immigration is a vital interest of all libertarians - even if they support open borders in principle.

This is the furthest thing from liberty. This is saying we should violate people's rights because it is written to a piece of paper. This is saying we should [I]sacrifice our own rights[I] because it is written to a piece of paper. And we're doing so in the name of preserving our rights?

[P3ter_Griffin]

Bad laws should be changed - the existence of bad laws does not imply that the Rule of Law itself is also bad. Illegal immigration - and official government acceptance and even encouragement thereof - strikes not against a bad law, but the very concept of being ruled by laws rather than men.

It is one thing for citizens to defy laws, quite another when the government itself does it. The latter case is called despotism.

So we should be more worried about the government not persecuting innocent individuals, than those innocent individuals not being persecuted?

[P3ter_Griffin]

Unbridled immigration keeps wages down and destroys the middle class.


Not true.

And even if it were, it would be no reason to abridge freedom. There is no right to a high wage or middle class lifestyle.

[P3ter_Griffin]

I have never heard Rand say he wants to import any unskilled labour. What Rand has said is that those inside the US should be given temporary work visas. They're here anyway, they aren't going to be deported, so let's give them temporary work visas.

Now that is just kickin the can while straddling the crap out of the fence.

[P3ter_Griffin]

There's something seriously wrong with you if you don't think we need to stop immigration from Mexico

How about we agree to end the promise of free everything in order to curb immigrants numbers whom come over for only that reason?

[P3ter_Griffin]

Where do I even start.

#1 - "I'm not advocating for walls. I'm advocating for security." Yes, you are advocating for walls because you are denying human beings the freedom to move. It may not be a physical wall but you are forcibly blocking people out one way or the other.

#2 - "For some of you who don't live in border states [...] I say you don't know wtf it's about." I don't need to live in a border state to know that immigration is not the root of the problems there. End drug prohibition and you strike a blow to the cartels. It's the same problems I'm familiar with in Chicago.

#3 - "What's more important to you? Your family's safety or making an ideological point?" Rudy Giulianni, is that you? Guess we better trade in the rest of our freedoms for security according to your logic.

#4 - "Do I need to point out our tax dollars are paying for border patrol agents to sit on their butts and look the other way? How's that waste of tax dollars sitting with you?" - Um, how about you not steal my tax dollars and just allow people to freely interact with one another on their private property?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to NIU Students for Liberty again.

[Keith and stuff]

I am glad Cantor got the boot, he needed it.

But I wish it had been over an issue other than illegal immigration.

Thoughts?
Rand Paul made it clear that it wasn't over immigration.

[HOLLYWOOD]

http://kwout.com/cutout/7/w8/vg/yjb_bor.jpg

Cantor, a reliable 'yes' vote for raising the H-1B visa cap, is unseated - Computerworld (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9249043/Cantor_a_reliable_yes_vote_for_raising_the_H_1B_vi sa_cap_is_unseated)

[NewRightLibertarian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lkAUMHypM0

[56ktarget]

He didnt lose because of immigration. In fact, 70% of voters in his district support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. More spin-doctoring by the paulites on this forum.

[RonPaulMall]

He didnt lose because of immigration. In fact, 70% of voters in his district support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. More spin-doctoring by the paulites on this forum.

Interesting that a district where 70% of the voters support Amnesty would vote for a guy who made opposition to amnesty the centerpiece of his campaign.

[acptulsa]

He didnt lose because of immigration. In fact, 70% of voters in his district support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. More spin-doctoring by the paulites on this forum.

Um, reading comprehension problems much?

One, shall we say, alleged 'paulite' alleged that's what it was about and has been called on it repeatedly in this very thread. But, you know, don't let facts get in the way of your narrative or anything. No point in breaking with tradition.

[Matt Collins]

Rand Paul made it clear that it wasn't over immigration.
Now that the dust has settled, it may have in fact not been over illegal immigration. However that's what was originally being touted either due to ignorance or an agenda. Sometimes though in politics perception is reality :-/

[Carlybee]

How about we agree to end the promise of free everything in order to curb immigrants numbers whom come over for only that reason?

And meanwhile while we wait for that to happen and while we wait for the war on drugs to end, Texas becoming ground zero for Los Zetas and they aren't stopping here either. The cartels are in control of the border.

[Southron]

He didnt lose because of immigration. In fact, 70% of voters in his district support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. More spin-doctoring by the paulites on this forum.

Did this come from the same people who told Cantor he was up 30 points in the polls?

[AuH20]

How about we agree to end the promise of free everything in order to curb immigrants numbers whom come over for only that reason?

But you'll see pigs fly before that happens....

[eduardo89]

He didnt lose because of immigration. In fact, 70% of voters in his district support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. More spin-doctoring by the paulites on this forum.

Wow! It seems you can get multiple red reputation bars. Congratulations.

[Brian4Liberty]

http://kwout.com/cutout/7/w8/vg/yjb_bor.jpg

Cantor, a reliable 'yes' vote for raising the H-1B visa cap, is unseated - Computerworld (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9249043/Cantor_a_reliable_yes_vote_for_raising_the_H_1B_vi sa_cap_is_unseated)

And that is the relevant point.

Taking the US Chamber of Commerce and Mark Zuckerberg side that immigration "reform" means increasing the cap, during a high unemployment recession, is a losing position.

This is what Dave Brat campaigned on:

473261119986229248

[mad cow]

Wow! It seems you can get multiple red reputation bars. Congratulations.

56ktarget is off the scale.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

What , I'm stealing your money ? First off I don't think you even own any property but your property doesn't exist independent of all other properties . You can't do anything you want on your property if it harms others . Whether you like it or not the USA is a nation and we're all apart of it. It's not some no man's land where anyone can just come set up shop


Well actually yeah , all those guys may be lying scum but they all campaigned on conservative principles . The sheep had no choice but to vote for them. I'm pretty sure if the media treated Ron Paul with the same respect they treated Romney and them that all those whites would have voted for him instead

lol stop being so naive


Do you seriously believe in egalitarianism ?

#1 - Yes, you are stealing my money if you need to fund your police state with tax dollars. How else are you going to pay for that kind of operation? And how is having an "illegal" immigrant on one's property harming others if both parties consented? And your collectivist definition of the USA sounds awfully like Mike Huckabee's excuse for the U.S. military having to remain in Iraq because we're one nation. The United States was founded on the notion that anyone CAN come over and set up shop. That was the beauty of it!

#2 - In no way did Romney, McCain, and Bush represent limited government. You can't praise the free market in one breath and then support military adventurism, a police state, and corporate bailouts in another.

#3 - How am I naive? You complain about immigrants supposedly being lazy but yet here is a case in which they're trying to make money through legitimate means and you want to shut them down because they were born on the wrong side of an arbitrary line. How "conservative" of you wanting to restrict free enterprise.

#4 - Oh my!!!! How dare I treat people like individuals and not collective groups!!!! I should be ashamed of myself...