Police officers shot in Las Vegas

[IronPatriot]

Note the "revolution has begun" quote and the automatic finger pointing at the Bundy ranch situation for somehow being responsible for this in the comments.

UPDATE: Police source: 1 officer dead, following shooting near Nellis and Stewart
Posted: Jun 08, 2014 11:58 AM PDT
Updated: Jun 08, 2014 1:05 PM PDT
By Natalie Cullen, Online Editor - email
*

*

LAS VEGAS -- A police source reports one Metro officer is dead following a double shooting at a pizza restaurant Sunday near Nellis Boulevard and Stewart Avenue.

According to police, two people walked into a Cici Pizza restaurant at 309 North Nellis and appeared to target two Metro officers who were eating at the restaurant. One person shot one officer in the head. The second person shot the second officer. There is no word on the officers' conditions.

Police say witnesses told*them*the suspects took the police officers' gear and, as they were walking out of the restaurant after the shooting, they said, " tell the police the revolution has begun."

The two suspects then left the restaurant and went into the Wal-Mart store across the street. Police have surrounded the Wal-Mart.

8 News NOW has a crew on the scene. Refresh this page for updated information.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25723142/breaking-news-2-metro-officers-shot-near-nellis-and-stewart

[Zippyjuan]

" tell the police the revolution has begun."
Whose revolution?

[IronPatriot]

Whose revolution?

Beats me, but I'm sure we'll be "informed" soon enough!

[Tod]

The second cop has died. Suspects trapped inside Walmart

http://www.mynews3.com/mostpopular/story/Two-Metro-officers-killed-in-shooting-at-pizza/D9ijUJ5li0WVolLrKpXz6A.cspx

[Zippyjuan]

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwSRqaZGsPw

[oyarde]

Whose revolution?
I dunno , why would they pen themselves up in a Walmart ?

[Zippyjuan]

Nearest building they could try to hide in. "Armed with rifles and bullet proof vests" according to reports. At least one body found inside the WalMart on aisle 11 by SWAT team.

"Cleanup on Aisle #11!"

[tod evans]

No tears here.........

[IronPatriot]

I dunno , why would they pen themselves up in a Walmart ?

We know it certainly isn't the ammo supply, at least.

[dannno]

Whose revolution?

I guess the one where two police officers get shot and everybody else loses their rights :confused:

[liberty2897]

They committed suicide apparently.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/three-killed-in-las-vegas-shooting-1402262129


Three people were killed in a shooting inside a Wal-Mart WMT -0.14% in Las Vegas Sunday, according to police, who said the two suspects were among those killed.

According to a spokesman for the Las Vegas police department, the mayhem began at 11:30 a.m., when a man and woman walked into a pizza restaurant and shot two police officers who were eating lunch, and then disarmed the officers.

The suspects, a man and woman, then went to a nearby Wal-Mart, where they shot an d killed a person inside, and then killed themselves in an apparent "suicide pact," a police spokesman said. He did not release details about the suspects or the third person who was killed.

Police had stabilized the situation and were working at the scene on Sunday, he said, calling it a "massive crime scene."

[oyarde]

We know it certainly isn't the ammo supply, at least.

Unless it is morning of shipment day .

[oyarde]

Well , this all seems senseless to me.

[Zippyjuan]

So much for their "revolution". Another "suicide by cop" attempt?

[pcosmar]

I dunno , why would they pen themselves up in a Walmart ?

That seems like a tactically bad thing to do.
Unless that is exactly what they were suppose to do.


The two suspects told other shoppers that they were part of a revolution and wanted a shootout with Metro. However, they had a suicide pact and killed themselves.

Ok, That's weird.

[oyarde]

That seems like a tactically bad thing to do.
Unless that is exactly what they were suppose to do.



Ok, That's weird.
Yes it is .

[pcosmar]

LAS VEGAS -- A police source reports that two Metro officers have died following a shooting at a pizza restaurant Sunday near Nellis Boulevard and Stewart Avenue. Police say a citizen and both suspects are dead, as well.

According to police, a man and woman walked into a Cici Pizza restaurant at 309 North Nellis and appeared to target two Metro officers who were eating at the restaurant. One person shot one officer in the head. The second person shot the second officer.

Police say witnesses told them the suspects took the police officers' gear and, as they were walking out of the restaurant after the shooting, they said, " tell the police the revolution has begun."

The two suspects then left the restaurant and went into the Wal-Mart store across the street where they shot a citizen and then shot each other. Both suspects are dead.

Metro Police will hold a news conference around 4 p.m. 8 News NOW will carry that live on Channel 8 and 8NewsNOW.com.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25723142/breaking-news-2-metro-officers-shot-near-nellis-and-stewart


Police say witnesses told them the suspects took the police officers' gear and, as they were walking out of the restaurant after the shooting, they said, " tell the police the revolution has begun."

The two suspects then left the restaurant and went into the Wal-Mart store across the street where they shot a citizen and then shot each other. Both suspects are dead.

No,, That is too f,n, weird.



Witnesses told police one yelled “This is the start of a revolution” before shooting the officers. The shooters then stripped the officers of their weapons and ammunition and went into the Walmart at 201 North Nellis.

Witnesses at the scene reported hearing shots fired in quick succession inside the WalMart.

One unconfirmed report is that the two exchanged gunfire with a citizen who was carrying a concealed weapon, and that one of the shooters was injured. Police confirm that at least one civilian at the Walmart was shot and killed.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/fire-rescue/five-reported-dead-northeast-las-vegas-police-ambush

[Brian4Liberty]

Inb4 rumors of additional shooters...

[pcosmar]

By Brian Nordli (contact)

Sunday, June 8, 2014 | 11:49 a.m.
Woman critical after running into light pole

A 19-year-old woman is in critical condition today after she crashed her truck into a light pole in northern Las Vegas.

Metro Police responded about 6 a.m. to the crash on Nellis Boulevard between Lake Mead Boulevard and Owens Avenue. The 19-year-old driver was transported to University Medical Center in critical condition, police said.

Two other passengers suffered minor injuries and were also transported to UMC.

Metro is investigating the crash.
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2014/jun/08/woman-critical-condition-after-crashing-light-pole/

[Henry Rogue]

I guess the one where two police officers get shot and everybody else loses their rights :confused:I hope they never visited here.

[devil21]

Do I really need to say it? Do I?

--------------------------

eta: Boxer (shocker) just introduced a bill to allow federal "firearms restraining orders". Family and others would be able to obtain a court order barring someone that would otherwise be free to purchase a firearm from buying a gun and/or ammo and also provide for the gov't to seize firearms from a person that otherwise would not be barred from possession.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/foghorn/breaking-dianne-feinstein-introduces-federal-bill-confiscate-guns/

https://www.boxer.senate.gov/en/press/releases/053014.cfm


The new legislation – The Pause for Safety Act – will include the following provisions:

• One, it would help ensure that families and others can go to court and seek a gun violence prevention order to temporarily stop someone close to them who poses a danger to themselves or others from purchasing a firearm.
• Two, it would help ensure that families and others can also seek a gun violence prevention warrant that would allow law enforcement to take temporary possession of firearms that have already been purchased if a court determines that the individual poses a threat to themselves or others (like Boxer herself?).
• Three, it would help ensure that law enforcement makes full use of all existing gun registries when assessing a tip, warning or request from a concerned family member or other close associate.

All of these "shootings" are to further the gun ban agenda.

[Zippyjuan]

Despite numerous tragedies, I haven't heard of a single federal gun restriction signed into law since Obama became president (I do remember the hysteria that he was going to take everbody's guns away so there was a huge surge in buying after he was elected which the gun dealers loved).

[pcosmar]

Despite numerous tragedies, I haven't heard of a single gun restriction signed into law since Obama became president (I do remember the hysteria that he was going to take everbody's guns away so there was a huge surge in buying after he was elected which the gun dealers loved).

There have been a great many restrictions passed.
Connecticut is just one,, New York another,, and of course California.
And there has been a lot of push back,, In several States.. as well as shit being proposed in Washington.

That push-back very nearly became ugly.




All of these "shootings" are to further the gun ban agenda.

I expect so,, this one stinks on first sniff.

[Anti Federalist]

Despite numerous tragedies, I haven't heard of a single federal gun restriction signed into law since Obama became president (I do remember the hysteria that he was going to take everbody's guns away so there was a huge surge in buying after he was elected which the gun dealers loved).

As Pete already noted there have been numerous restrictions passed in NY, CT, NJ and MA.

But I thought polls showed a decreasing number of households with guns?

[coastie]

We know it certainly isn't the ammo supply, at least.


Shit, the one by me was SLAP FULL of ammo a couple of weeks ago, and my buddy just said it was today as well.

Weird.

[Anti Federalist]

And before anybody starts muttering about a "War on Cops"...

Total gunfire deaths of cops so far this year?

19

Increase from last year at this time, which was a century old record low?

19%

I almost started feeling bad, until:

http://i.imgur.com/yP6SdeY.png

[liberty2897]

And before anybody starts muttering about a "War on Cops"...

Total gunfire deaths of cops so far this year?

19

Increase from last year at this time, which was a century old record low?

19%

I almost started feeling bad, until:

http://i.imgur.com/yP6SdeY.png

Drug users made them do it. Fuck those drug users for forcing the police to grenade a baby.

[pcosmar]

Officers Id in this FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/LasVegasMetro/posts/10153070639260639


Today is a truly tragic day for our police department, and our community. Two LVMPD officers were shot and killed in the line of duty, ambushed while having lunch at a local pizza restaurant.
Killed in the attack were: Officer Alyn Beck (age 41) and Officer Igor Soldo (age 31). The attackers (a man and woman) then ran to a nearby Walmart store, where a third victim was shot and killed. Inside the store, the female suspect shot and killed the male suspect and then fatally shot herself. LVMPD Sheriff Doug Gillespie just addressed the media. We will post a link to his press conference shortly.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/two-cops-three-others-killed-las-vegas-shooting-spree-n125766

[phill4paul]

The two suspects told other shoppers that they were part of a revolution and wanted a shootout with Metro. However, they had a suicide pact and killed themselves.


Ok, That's weird.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHk2RSMCS8

[limequat]

Yeah, I don't get it.
Why take the cops weapons and ammo only to commit suicide?

[Christian Liberty]

And before anybody starts muttering about a "War on Cops"...

Total gunfire deaths of cops so far this year?

19

Increase from last year at this time, which was a century old record low?

19%

I almost started feeling bad, until:

http://i.imgur.com/yP6SdeY.png

Had they shot Sheriff Terrell, I wouldn't feel bad. I wouldn't endorse it, but I wouldn't feel bad.

But... what were these cops doing that somebody felt the need to shoot them? If they were just minding their own business and some people just decided to shoot them because they're "the enemy" than that doesn't seem justified to me. Its one thing to defend yourself from a cop. Its another thing to attempt vigilante justice against a specific cop after he somehow ruins your life or someone else you know. Both of those actions I can respect. Its another thing entirely to preemptively attack a cop because he's likely to violate someone's rights at some future time. That doesn't seem right to me.

[Tod]

Had they shot Sheriff Terrell, I wouldn't feel bad. I wouldn't endorse it, but I wouldn't feel bad.

But... what were these cops doing that somebody felt the need to shoot them? If they were just minding their own business and some people just decided to shoot them because they're "the enemy" than that doesn't seem justified to me. Its one thing to defend yourself from a cop. Its another thing to attempt vigilante justice against a specific cop after he somehow ruins your life or someone else you know. Both of those actions I can respect. Its another thing entirely to preemptively attack a cop because he's likely to violate someone's rights at some future time. That doesn't seem right to me.

Christopher Cantwell wrote this on his blog:

People say the officers were “simply eating lunch” and so this was a clear cut case of murder. I could not disagree more. Those officers were merely taking a short break from the aggressions all police commit day in, and day out. Immediately after they got done with their break, they would inevitably have returned to their regular duties of harassing and extorting motorists, kidnapping people for possessing plants. They paid for their food, with money that was taken from people under the threats of violence that are taxation, and fines. While it’s a lot easier to draw the connection in something like the Justin Bourque incident, the fact remains that all police are aggressors. There is no such thing as a good cop.



I wonder when the next similar type cop shooting will be?

[jonhowe]

No tears here.........

Really? It's disturbing how cold people here are towards police. I'm no fan of law enforcement, and I practice the "don't talk to the police" method of protecting myself when needed, but assuming that all cops are so evil that they deserve to die is beyond ridiculous.

A couple of nuts killed 3 innocent people. All were human beings and none deserved to die.

"Beck was a senior patrol officer who had taught Advanced Officer Skills Training and at the Metro academy. He was hired by Metro in 2001 and had a wife and three children.

Soldo has been a Metro officer since 2006 and had a wife and baby. Both were uniform patrol officers assigned to the Northeast Area Command."

[Christian Liberty]

Christopher Cantwell wrote this on his blog:




I wonder when the next similar type cop shooting will be?

You know, I can't say I don't understand his point. I'd at least be contemplating a "not guilty" vote in any such case (I'd have a tough time with it though because there's no way I can know the person in question is actually an ideological libertarian as opposed to somebody who just wanted to kill somebody.)

That said, I have a couple of issues with Cantwell's argument.

First of all, simply the method by which the police get paid isn't relevant. If you know somebody is in college via Federal financial aid, is that just cause to kill them? Can we justifiably break into an IRS building and shoot all of its employees? We've had a few robberies of veterans mentioned on these forums, were they actually not crimes? After all, "veterans" volunteered to kill for the State, does that now make any crime that one would want to commit against them justified? Or are cops special for some reason? Is it only cops that we can target 24/7, or any government worker?

Another issue I have with it, from a moral perspective, is that I don't think most cops realize how evil what they are doing is. That isn't an excuse for them, but it does make me not want to kill them. I feel differently about people who clearly know what they are doing is heinously wrong. Take the case of those prison guards who burned some mentally ill prisoner to death. There's no way society has been conditioned to the point where anyone seriously thought that was OK, and if anyone had been, we could easily make the argument that they are little more than animals at that point. But with regular policing actions, most people have just been conditioned into thinking those things are OK. If you're the victim, that certainly doesn't deny you the right to defend yourself. But if you don't want to, does some other random person have the right to do it on their behalf? If I get pulled over by a cop, and I know I'm effectively being temporarily kidnapped, but I decide to comply with his extortion rather than take his life, do you have a right to just go kill him because he bullied me, even though I decided to allow it to happen precisely because I did not want to end that man's life?

Mind you, I agree with Cantwell that there is no such thing as a "good cop." I do think that there are decent and otherwise likeable people who are cops and who don't understand the wickedness of what they do. I'd rather not kill them if at all possible. I feel a little differently about the blatantly corrupt ones who actively seek out opportunites to bully other people. Eric Peters once described "three categories" of cops. I forget what he called them, but I'll rename them here as drones, sociopaths, and the nice old guy. The drones basically just do what they're told. They assume that the law is right because its the law. They don't show much mercy as far as the law is concerned, but they don't go beyond it either. They're cogs in the machine, not even critically thinking about what they are doing. The sociopaths, by contrast, enjoy being able to hold massive amounts of control over other people, being able to rob, assault, and murder people at will. Eric describes these guys as the ones who would likely lead the charge in implementing America's version of the Holocaust. Those guys don't care about "the law" so much as they just care about their own control. Then there's the nice old guy cop, who's probably actually old, who's back from the old days before the police state, gives you breaks when he can, and is mostly just waiting around until he can retire.

Cantwell would probably just say that all of those guys are aggressors. And he's right. But I see a difference between the sociopaths and the other types. I see a difference, from a moral perspective, between somebody who knowingly does wicked things and somebody who does wicked things thinking they are good.

With all that said, I don't really know all the answers. There's no way I can justify shooting cops who are sitting there eating lunch, even though they might partake in aggressive action at a later date. A big part of the problem is that, while cops do indeed bully the innocent, that's not ALL they do. There are some real crimes that they arrest people for as well. And those real crimes make it easy for them to deceive themselves into thinking that "law enforcement" is generally a good thing, whereas most of it really isn't.

That said, I do think Cantwell is asking the right questions (And I think its cool to see someone who's more radical than me, I guess it just shows that I'm not totally nuts;)). I just can't quite go along with his answers.

[Christian Liberty]

Really? It's disturbing how cold people here are towards police. I'm no fan of law enforcement, and I practice the "don't talk to the police" method of protecting myself when needed, but assuming that all cops are so evil that they deserve to die is beyond ridiculous.

A couple of nuts killed 3 innocent people. All were human beings and none deserved to die.

"Beck was a senior patrol officer who had taught Advanced Officer Skills Training and at the Metro academy. He was hired by Metro in 2001 and had a wife and three children.

Soldo has been a Metro officer since 2006 and had a wife and baby. Both were uniform patrol officers assigned to the Northeast Area Command."

I don't think they deserved to die just because they were cops, but I do think that their being cops makes calling them "innocent" a questionable proposition, even from a legal perspective (they are, after all, chronic NAP violators.)

That said, I'm not sure how their families are relevant to this at all. Its possible for a capital criminal to have a family (unless you don't believe in the death penalty, of course, but even then, you get my point.) The primary reason I don't think all cops deserve to die is because I think most of them are fundamentally ignorant of how evil their careers are, and I think that some of them are likely decent people who don't realize that their career is evil. Even still, I see a huge distinction between using violence to end an unjustified act of aggression (even one that is legal and generally accepted) that a cop initiates against you, and shooting cops who are sitting there and eating lunch on the grounds that these people have acted in criminally aggressive ways toward other people. I would consider both to be morally questionable, but the first situation, to me, is not legally questionable (ie. I would vote not guilty in any situation in which a person was charged with killing a cop who was trying to arrest him for a victimless crime) but in the latter case, I think its NAP-questionable as well. I'd definitely need to have some questions answered before I could put that in the same category as, say, shooting at somebody who is trying to arrest you without just cause.

[Christian Liberty]

Just a disclaimer here primarily for NSA spies who are almost certainly reading, and possibly for any members who might take me out of context, everything I've posted in this thread about the "shooting cops" discussion is philosophizing about the logical implications about the NAP. I am not actually condoning shooting cops in any situation.

[Czolgosz]

Fvck the government. May you receive more just desserts.

[pcosmar]

Really? It's disturbing how cold people here are towards police. I'm no fan of law enforcement, and I practice the "don't talk to the police" method of protecting myself when needed, but assuming that all cops are so evil that they deserve to die is beyond ridiculous.

A couple of nuts killed 3 innocent people. All were human beings and none deserved to die.

"Beck was a senior patrol officer who had taught Advanced Officer Skills Training and at the Metro academy. He was hired by Metro in 2001 and had a wife and three children.

Soldo has been a Metro officer since 2006 and had a wife and baby. Both were uniform patrol officers assigned to the Northeast Area Command."

Very little information in this to make any decisions on who did or didn't deserve to die..

And the very little information released does attempt to draw the narrative.

Who were these people? did they have any prior contact? Anything in common? And what about the girl critically injured in a car wreak? (in that area shortly before this shooting) Is that connected? Why were those two cops targeted? Were they targeted?

Was this a training Op that went sideways? Were two nuts psyched up into this? Were two "True Believers" souped up into this?

There are lots of questions and some serious investigation is due before any judgements are made..
And before you believe the media story without question,, remember that they lie,, a lot.

[Weston White]

Is this another botched false-flag incident? Seriously, what was going on in there, several reports by witnesses that at least two warning were exclaimed prior to shots being fired, and one LEO is refilling a soda pop, while the other is apparently sitting at a table twiddling their thumbs?


A law enforcement official who has been briefed on the incident said an officer — unconfirmed reports indicate it was Soldo — was refilling a soft-drink when the female shooter approached him from behind and shot him in the head, killing him instantly.


Witnesses told police one yelled “This is the start of a revolution” before shooting the officers.


At a news conference at about 1 p.m. Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill said the male shooter, described as a tall white man, yelled “everyone get out” before shooting.


SMH:


Marlene Buck works at the Denny’s on Nellis across from Wal-Mart. She said she was impressed with how quickly Metro responded.

“It took less than fifteen minutes,” she said.


Classical instantaneous and subversive FBI involvement:


FBI officials would say little about their involvement in the investigation.


And, right on schedule, let us pin the racist hate crime, drug abusing, meth-head, gang-bangers directly on the “conspiracy theorist” liberty movement:


They then covered the officers with something that featured the Gadsden flag, a yellow banner with a coiled snake above the words, “Don’t tread on Me.”


And of course, we might as well kill two birds with one stone. Those damned BLM protesters are getting just a bit too uppity after all:


The man told Monroe he had been kicked off Cliven Bundy’s ranch 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas while people from throughout the U.S. gathered there in protest of a Bureau of Land Management roundup of Bundy’s cattle.


Oh, here we go, no wonder LEO’ are so anti-CCW/CCP, look who again steps up to the plate, bringing a swift end to the chaos of lawlessness. Add one more game-set-match for conceal carry.


One unconfirmed report is that the two exchanged gunfire with a citizen who was carrying a concealed weapon, and that one of the shooters was injured.

[devil21]

Shit, the one by me was SLAP FULL of ammo a couple of weeks ago, and my buddy just said it was today as well.

Weird.

Except anything in .22LR, right?

eta: Anyone else get a Pulp Fiction vibe from this story?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YujYTVQ4_S0

[bunklocoempire]

Except anything in .22LR, right?

eta: Anyone else get a Pulp Fiction vibe from this story?

Honey bunny didn't stay cool. We're hurting for .22 mag out here, and a bunch of other stuff.

Tragic stuff. If it was just things boiling over, well, I expect more until something changes -people have their limits. If it was some sort of Fed led *boogity boogity move, well... I expect a lot more until something changes. Gangs bring violence. Gotta protect their imagined turf.

My first thoughts on this is that gangs have a way of taking care of in house business themselves, and if you get involved with gangs in any way, they own you. Local police, Feds, citizens. The biggest fish is going to call the shots.

*Hat tip to whoever started using boogity boogity here, (one of the Tods?) it's a term I use off-line but it is so appropriate for referring to the herd.

Yeah, I really don't want my son (or anyone's son) involved in any way with these gangs.:( More of this is sure come.

[tod evans]

How can a sane person view ambushing the opposing forces while eating lunch any differently than ambushing them while they sleep?

The only difference is how the MSM paints the participants....

One group comes 2 strong and doesn't assault any children while the other group defends assaulting woman and children, even killing dogs...

[limequat]

Really? It's disturbing how cold people here are towards police. I'm no fan of law enforcement, and I practice the "don't talk to the police" method of protecting myself when needed, but assuming that all cops are so evil that they deserve to die is beyond ridiculous.

A couple of nuts killed 3 innocent people. All were human beings and none deserved to die.

"Beck was a senior patrol officer who had taught Advanced Officer Skills Training and at the Metro academy. He was hired by Metro in 2001 and had a wife and three children.

Soldo has been a Metro officer since 2006 and had a wife and baby. Both were uniform patrol officers assigned to the Northeast Area Command."

Miriam Carey had a baby IN THE CAR when they shot her.

[fisharmor]

Hey FF, this is really as far as I need to reason this out, as far as the cops that are caught up in a system and think they're doing good.

Go try to explain it to them.

Do you believe that you'd escape that situation with all your existing property, freedom, and/ or mental and physical faculties?

I don't believe that for a minute. And I sure as hell didn't create this situation where we're told the way things are, and risk financial ruin, dismemberment, or death when simply trying to reason with those telling us.

[AuH20]

They wasted their life on the police? No high value target? Were they on mind-altering drugs? This is sad all-around. If you can't identify the crimes of the individual, you probably shouldn't engage them.

[AuH20]

Really? It's disturbing how cold people here are towards police. I'm no fan of law enforcement, and I practice the "don't talk to the police" method of protecting myself when needed, but assuming that all cops are so evil that they deserve to die is beyond ridiculous.

A couple of nuts killed 3 innocent people. All were human beings and none deserved to die.

"Beck was a senior patrol officer who had taught Advanced Officer Skills Training and at the Metro academy. He was hired by Metro in 2001 and had a wife and three children.

Soldo has been a Metro officer since 2006 and had a wife and baby. Both were uniform patrol officers assigned to the Northeast Area Command."

And we have no clue what their sentiments where. Indiscriminately killing police in a non-defense mode is crazy.

[Christian Liberty]

Honey bunny didn't stay cool. We're hurting for .22 mag out here, and a bunch of other stuff.

Tragic stuff. If it was just things boiling over, well, I expect more until something changes -people have their limits. If it was some sort of Fed led *boogity boogity move, well... I expect a lot more until something changes. Gangs bring violence. Gotta protect their imagined turf.

My first thoughts on this is that gangs have a way of taking care of in house business themselves, and if you get involved with gangs in any way, they own you. Local police, Feds, citizens. The biggest fish is going to call the shots.

*Hat tip to whoever started using boogity boogity here, (one of the Tods?) it's a term I use off-line but it is so appropriate for referring to the herd.

Yeah, I really don't want my son (or anyone's son) involved in any way with these gangs.:( More of this is sure come.

You have a son who's going into the police, and you understand the problems with police, so you'd probably have a very interesting perspective on this, what did you think of Cantwell's comment?

How can a sane person view ambushing the opposing forces while eating lunch any differently than ambushing them while they sleep?

The only difference is how the MSM paints the participants....

One group comes 2 strong and doesn't assault any children while the other group defends assaulting woman and children, even killing dogs...

This is where the "broad brush" accusations become valid. I don't think for a second that every single cop without exception defends assaulting women and children and killing dogs.

Mind you, I'm not saying that means there is a single cop who isn't part of the problem. I'm not saying the cops that don't do this are noble or heroic. Really, the best they can possibly do is fail to show up for worked, followed by treating people courteously where they unknowingly steal from and kidnap people.

I guess I just don't view myself as being at total war with the police the same way some of you guys do. That's not to say that I condone or support them in any way. I guess I just don't go as far with it as possible. While I could kill a cop to protect my life, I am not going to look for an opportunity to do it, and I don't think you should either.

Mind you, I'm talking about individually taking action here. I'm not talking about an organized armed secession movement. In that type of situation my suggestions would change some, because then you have some goal that at least doesn't count on being killed.


Hey FF, this is really as far as I need to reason this out, as far as the cops that are caught up in a system and think they're doing good.

Go try to explain it to them.

Do you believe that you'd escape that situation with all your existing property, freedom, and/ or mental and physical faculties?

I don't believe that for a minute. And I sure as hell didn't create this situation where we're told the way things are, and risk financial ruin, dismemberment, or death when simply trying to reason with those telling us.

I honestly don't know what would happen. I think that the cop who genuinely believes they are doing good (note: I don't think this is all or even most cops. It may even be a minority of cops, actually. That wouldn't surprise me at all. But I do believe they exist) would have to at least accept my calling them out as my free speech right, even if it offended them. Now, if you're contention is that there isn't a single cop in the country who would not kill me, arrest me, or in some way legally harass me over it, and if you are correct about that, than you'd probably be right when you say that there isn't a single well meaning cop in the country. But I don't believe that that's the case.

I know a police captain personally, and we've discussed politics before. While I've never came out and said "being a cop is evil", I've definitely hinted at the problems with policing and attacked the existence of the State in our conversations. And even if I did flat out tell him that his job was evil, I am confident I would survive the situation (I'd likely tick my family off more than him, actually;)) Mind you, he's a Christian as well. Atheists and agnostics who become cops, their only loyalty is the State, and that's truly a terrifying thought...

[pcosmar]

How can a sane person view ambushing the opposing forces while eating lunch any differently than ambushing them while they sleep?

The only difference is how the MSM paints the participants....

One group comes 2 strong and doesn't assault any children while the other group defends assaulting woman and children, even killing dogs...

Well this is assuming that it went down anything like is being reported.

Was there a reason that these cops were targeted? a past encounter? or an ongoing feud?

And if these two were seriously intent on starting a war,, Why put up no fight? Why the suicide with out even engaging in battle?

This story stinks,, no matter what angle you sniff it from.

[Tod]

Really? It's disturbing how cold people here are towards police. I'm no fan of law enforcement, and I practice the "don't talk to the police" method of protecting myself when needed, but assuming that all cops are so evil that they deserve to die is beyond ridiculous.

A couple of nuts killed 3 innocent people. All were human beings and none deserved to die.

"Beck was a senior patrol officer who had taught Advanced Officer Skills Training and at the Metro academy. He was hired by Metro in 2001 and had a wife and three children.

Soldo has been a Metro officer since 2006 and had a wife and baby. Both were uniform patrol officers assigned to the Northeast Area Command."

What if.........

The shooters had instead targeted the cops who beat Kelly Thomas to death? Clearly, those cops are murderous villains who escaped justice, thanks to a society that is mostly applauding the march to fascism.

[Carlybee]

Have read some comments saying a CHL holder inside Walmart went after them and that's when they committed suicide. No confirmation on that.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/shooters-metro-ambush-left-five-dead-spoke-white-supremacy-and-desire-kill-police

[jllundqu]

Radio is claiming the shooters were drug addicts with a house full of swastikas and "conspiracy theorists"

Return to cop-hating/bashing.

That is all

[Christian Liberty]

Well this is assuming that it went down anything like is being reported.

Was there a reason that these cops were targeted? a past encounter? or an ongoing feud?

And if these two were seriously intent on starting a war,, Why put up no fight? Why the suicide with out even engaging in battle?

This story stinks,, no matter what angle you sniff it from.

I was commenting assuming the accuracy of the story, assuming that these guys were just regular cops and not being targeted for some specific reason beyond just being cops.


What if.........

The shooters had instead targeted the cops who beat Kelly Thomas to death? Clearly, those cops are murderous villains who escaped justice, thanks to a society that is mostly applauding the march to fascism.

I would consider them to be heroes, in that case.

[Christian Liberty]

Radio is claiming the shooters were drug addicts with a house full of swastikas and "conspiracy theorists"

Return to cop-hating/bashing.

That is all

You say that as if hating/bashing the people without whom tyranny could not continue is irrational.

Mind you, I don't hate cops I just strongly dislike them. And I don't think these people deserved to die. And its very possible that they were nice people out of work who just didn't realize how seriously wrong it is to take that job. But let's be real. Those who take the job are still part of the problem.

[Brian4Liberty]

Yeah, I don't get it.
Why take the cops weapons and ammo only to commit suicide?

The psychopathy of these shooters always seems to be about the same. They are committing suicide, but they decide to take others with them first. They are already dead in their own minds before they start, and usually they take themselves out very quickly.

This is where the question of some pharmaceutical drugs (SSRIs) come into play. Do they modify the thinking of these suicidal people such that they engage in murder-suicide instead of simple suicide?

[Christian Liberty]

Unlike the Paul Ciancia and Justin Bourque cases, it doesn't seem like this was even a deliberately calculated action at all...

[Brian4Liberty]

Christopher Cantwell wrote this on his blog:


People say the officers were “simply eating lunch” and so this was a clear cut case of murder. I could not disagree more. Those officers were merely taking a short break from the aggressions all police commit day in, and day out. Immediately after they got done with their break, they would inevitably have returned to their regular duties of harassing and extorting motorists, kidnapping people for possessing plants. They paid for their food, with money that was taken from people under the threats of violence that are taxation, and fines. While it’s a lot easier to draw the connection in something like the Justin Bourque incident, the fact remains that all police are aggressors. There is no such thing as a good cop.


That's ridiculous. Don't know who he is, and I won't be reading his murderous nonsense. It sounds like some neoconservative who wants to kill children in foreign lands because "they are all terrorists anyway". And it also sounds like those cops who view all citizens as dangerous criminals.

[jllundqu]

You say that as if hating/bashing the people without whom tyranny could not continue is irrational.

Mind you, I don't hate cops I just strongly dislike them. And I don't think these people deserved to die. And its very possible that they were nice people out of work who just didn't realize how seriously wrong it is to take that job. But let's be real. Those who take the job are still part of the problem.

I disagree that all cops are bad. I don't subscribe to the NAP. I am a minarchist who thinks that limited government is a preferable albeit not-perfect solution. Police, courts, military, etc.

[pcosmar]

Unlike the Paul Ciancia and Justin Bourque cases, it doesn't seem like this was even a deliberately calculated action at all...

Well media hype is Going to Meth Heads, White Supremacists and the Bundy Ranch.

But did also mention that this couple were also actors.

It will be interesting what the "Manifesto" says.


"No one associated [with them], but everyone knew these people," said resident Sara Andrea. She told the paper the assailants would occasionally walk around town dressed as The Joker and Harley Quinn, characters from Batman comic books.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/neighbor-las-vegas-shooters-were-racist-anti-government/


The husband, who neighbors only knew as Jared, was often spotted outside the couple’s Bruce Street apartment wearing camouflage when he wasn’t dressed as Peter Pan to go to work as a street performer and typically ranted about conspiracy theories.

He and his wife, Amanda, also dressed as the comic book villians Joker and Harley Quinn, neighbors said.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/couple-accused-killing-las-vegas-cops-civilian-white-supremacist-meth-heads-authorites-article-1.1822387#ixzz349xhJSoP

[fisharmor]

I honestly don't know what would happen.
Well, luckily we have documentation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qEr_mZf06Y

Start at exactly 28 minutes.

[Christian Liberty]

That's ridiculous. Don't know who he is, and I won't be reading his murderous nonsense. It sounds like some neoconservative who wants to kill children in foreign lands because "they are all terrorists anyway". And it also sounds like those cops who view all citizens as dangerous criminals.

I don't even agree with him and I don't think its comparable.

Foreign wars necessarily require murdering innocent civilians (those who have committed no NAP violation) and theft (via taxation) to fund the wars. Cops who view civilians as dangerous criminals are wrong because the vast majority of civilians, and even the vast majority of civilians who break the law, are not in fact dangerous and are not in fact NAP violators. By contrast, all cops are REQUIRED, as part of their jobs, to violate the NAP. And its really impossible to use proportionate force to protect yourself from the State. With the amount of resources the State has, you could even potentially (I wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't advise you to do it, and I wouldn't advise you to advise anyone else to do it) even argue that being pulled over at a traffic stop is an encounter that justifies deadly force. A couple minutes of your time and a couple hundred bucks isn't worth that to me, and I doubt it would be worth it to Cantwell either, nor to pretty much anyone else who would be contemplating it. But the bottom line, the unfortunate reality, is that the only way to stop that theft is to kill the assailant. Again, personally, I'd settle for calling the guy out on his theft and then allowing him to do it, but that's just me. From an NAP perspective it seems to me that it would be justified to end that encounter by any means necessary. It isn't comparable to the child who steals a piece of candy from the store, because the cop has the might of the (physically) most powerful worldy instituion, namely, the United States Government, backing up his cases of murder. Move forward to an actual attempt to kidnap (arrest) someone for a victimless crime, and it seems pretty clear-cut to me (again, from a legalistic, NAP perspective). And the fact of the matter is, a cop gets himself into that position (putting himself in a position where someone could justifiably use deadly force against him [again, from a legalistic NAP perspective, I'm not saying it would be right, and I certainly don't suggest it]) on a daily basis.

Here's where I disagree with Cantwell. I disagree that the death of cops is something to celebrate. The loss of ANY human life is something to be mourned. Even if taking the life is something that you really did need to do, even if it was completely justified (and I'm not saying that's the case here, I'll address that in a minute) its still sad. You left a family in mourning, and its very possible that the person you killed died and went to Hell (I know Cantwell is an atheist so he wouldn't care about this bit). That's a serious thing, and not something to take lightly, even if it did need to be done (I'd kill a cop who tried to kill me, but I wouldn't celebrate his death ,and I'd be saddened that I had to do what I did.)

Here's the other point on which I disagree with him. While I do believe I would have the right to use deadly force to protect myself from being robbed or unjustly arrested/kidnapped (Do I need to provide the above disclaimer again? Just in case, I'm talking about rights, not suggestions, I don't suggest that you exercise this right in this case) and I'd have the right to help someone else to do so if he requested my help, I do not think I have the right to kill on behalf of someone who would not want me to. For instance, say you (B4L) are pulled over at a traffic ticket. You decide to comply, whether because you don't actually see the injustice of what is happening, or because you would rather not end the life of the robber in blue. The next day, I go to that cop's house and shoot him on the grounds that he has stolen from B4L and will do so to other people in the future. This, to me, is completely unjustified. Its not even really close, for me anyway. I would say I committed murder, in that case. Cantwell would say I was executing vigilante justice, but I don't really think so. It wasn't my place to take the action, and nobody even asked me to take it on their behalf. I just saw somebody who I wanted to kill and I killed him. I don't think that's justified.

Mind you, I was talking about justifiability (in an NAP sense) not what I personally would do or would justify. Personally it would take quite a bit more than that before I'd consider lethal force.

[Christian Liberty]

I disagree that all cops are bad. I don't subscribe to the NAP. I am a minarchist who thinks that limited government is a preferable albeit not-perfect solution. Police, courts, military, etc.

Etc? What else. A true minarchist would say that ONLY those three things should be done by the government (BTW: I don't necessarily disagree with "government", but I disagree with the State.) Once you add the "etc." you're no longer really a minarchist but some hybrid between libertarianism and small-government conservatism.

That said, I'll answer on your own minarchist terms. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the police, courts, and defensive military (I assume you don't think preemptive war is justified)) can rightfully be run by the government, and that taxation to a level sufficient to fund these limited function is justified, and that police enforcing laws consistent with the NAP, and for whatever reason including the taxation scheme necessary to fund this, is justified.

Even if all of these things were true, I don't think this does anything for the modern American cop. It doesn't really make him any more justified. The only point at which the above scenario would differ from what I believe, in terms of the cop's responsibility (I don't believe that its necessarily unjustified to work for the government as long as the work itself isn't aggressive in nature, I view taking money from the government in much the same way that Walter Block does) is that in the above scenario, enforcing a minimal level of taxation is justified. The reality is that, the tax rates that cops are enforcing is way higher than that. The reality is that there are still all kinds of victimless crimes laws on the books that have nothing to do with taxation. Drug laws, gun control laws, laws against consensual sexual activities such as prostitution, anti-discrimination laws, laws against "price gouging", laws against disrespecting the american flag, and many, many more. Cops can't just turn a blind eye to all of these things, they'll get fired.

Mind you, I'm not saying all cops are equally bad. I'm not saying all cops should die. I'm not saying that there aren't likeable cops. I'm not saying there aren't cops who have the best of intentions. But I am saying that all cops are bad in at least some sense, because their careers require them to act aggressively, and that applies even if we assume that the necessary aggressions of a minimal state are not actually aggressive. I think that normally the best response to this is simply to be honest about it. Don't beat around the bush, don't pretend that its unjustified. Redistribution of wealth, except with consent or after conviction for an act of aggression, is theft. Locking someone up, except as punishment for a violent crime, is kidnapping. Killing someone, except in self-defense or as punishment for murder, and this includes cops who use "self-defense" after initiating an aggressive encounter, is murder. I'd be hesitant to use physical force, because the reprecussions are huge for doing so. I can see some cases where I could condone it (and I certainly wouldn't mention such cases on the internet) but normally I'd disagree with it even if it were justified.

[Anti Federalist]

Radio is claiming the shooters were drug addicts with a house full of swastikas and "conspiracy theorists"

Return to cop-hating/bashing.

That is all

I have said it all along, this is not "cop bashing".

Apparently that is just too complex an argument for some to comprehend.

That's it, I'm done, not posting another, "cop shoots dog", "cop shoots baby in the face", "SWAT shoots unarmed man in the face story".

Enjoy your police state...

Fuck's sake.

[jllundqu]

I have said it all along, this is not "cop bashing".

Apparently that is just too complex an argument for some to comprehend.

That's it, I'm done, not posting another, "cop shoots dog", "cop shoots baby in the face", "SWAT shoots unarmed man in the face story".

Enjoy your police state...

Fuck's sake.

Have you not read the posts in this thread? The OP and story are not cop bashing. People posting in this thread ARE.

Enjoy your collectivist "all cops are evil" meme.

Fuck's sake.

[AuH20]

Radio is claiming the shooters were drug addicts with a house full of swastikas and "conspiracy theorists"

Return to cop-hating/bashing.

That is all
I'm shocked mind altering drugs were used. Shocked.

[AuH20]

Was this the same couple that they rebuked at the Bundy Ranch? It supposedly was a young couple like this and one of them was a felon. So this may be the same people.

[dannno]

Have you not read the posts in this thread? The OP and story are not cop bashing. People posting in this thread ARE.

Enjoy your collectivist "all cops are evil" meme.

Fuck's sake.

Last time I was at a house that had a bunch of swasticas, the owner of the house was Jewish and the swasticas were attributed to our former President Bush Jr.

He was also a drug addict.

I would rather have 100 of those guys as my neighbors than a single cop.

[AuH20]

Last time I was at a house that had a bunch of swasticas, the owner of the house was Jewish and the swasticas were attributed to our former President Bush Jr.

He was also a drug addict.

I would rather have 100 of those guys as my neighbors than a single cop.

I choose to not associate with people who can't handle reality. That's just me. I view that as a weakness that will come back to bite the particular person and the group who he associates with.

[Weston White]

Just wonderful, and now we already enter the bonus round:

The shooter Jared, has had a Planet Inforwars account, right after the site went online, dated May 28, 2012 in Guns, Offbeat, Politics, Preparedness, Resistance; Tags: Laws, nazi, Patriots, police, rights:



The Police (to kill or not to kill?)


I stand at a point in my life where I am on probation for selling marijuana. I take urine screens frequently and I am forced to take drug classes I do not need. Before I got arrested I had 2 jobs and was selling weed to my friends and family on the side. Now I cannot find a job. My probation officer states that if I protest that my probation will be violated. They have tried to tell my fiance, who has no criminal record, that she may not own a firearm if I live in the house. Now, i face a dire problem. At any time the police could show up to my house and enter it for any reason at all, because, since I’m on probation aparently I dont have my 4th amendment right and neither does my fiance. I live in Indiana and recently a law was passed named the right to resist law. As i can make out from it, if a police officer kicks in my door and is not there legally, then I may shoot him. But what is legal? A warrant signed by a judge? What if that judge however enforces unconstitutional laws? Locks people in cages for putting a substance into their bodies. I was arrested for a crime, that is a felony, yet i hurt no one. Never laid a hand on a person or their property. Was selling something on the black market that is in high demand. Yet there is no victim in the crime i committed, so how can that be a felony charge? A charge that takes my 1st, 2nd, and 4th right away? How can this be? Do I really live in a free country? So here I sit today pondering………….

Before I go any further however, i would like to tell you a story about a friend of mine. He got charged with a misdomenor for having a marijuana pipe on him. He was released from jail and he was given the wrong court date. He then had an arrest warrant out for him. I was at his house late one night playing a video game with him. A knock on the door came. He opened the door and cops shoved him to the ground and came rushing in guns drawn. several of the police officers were wearing ski masks. 2 police officers then shoved guns in my face fingers on the triggers as the rest swept the house. They pulled his father who was asleep from his bed and dragged him into the living room. I was ordered to lay face down on the floor as they searched me. Finally after running my name they uncuffed me and his father and took my friend to jail. Before we knew what was going on it was over and I felt as if I had taken a trip back in time to nazi germany.

Now, that was my last encounter with police officers. I’m afraid they may try to do some stuff like that to my fiance and I. For the most part, I’m a law abiding citizen. I believe in Gods law. You know the ones. Dont steal, dont murder, etc. I fear that if they came, even with a warrant, that I feel they are being unlawfull and infringing upon my rights. I feel that I have been violated and tread upon. That the so called justice system has done me harm. I do not wish to kill police. I understand that most of them believe they are doing the right thing. Yet, I will not go to jail, because I have not committed a crime! I would rather die than be labeled as a criminal. Let them call me a terrorist. Let them label me as a fanatic, some nut job. I know the truth, and so does God. I’m sure our founding fathers were labeled as such. Call me a radical, i will wear that badge with pride. Because America is a radical idea! Brought up upon radical thinking. That each man has constitutional rights that are God given and cannot be taken away no matter what. I refuse to stand by and let them dictate my life. My family loves me, my neighbors love me. I do good for the community, more than any cop can claim. How can a police officer have a consience arresting people who have done nothing to harm a fellow american? How can they sleep at night? I wouldnt be able to. So as i reflect, I’m being pushed further and further into a corner. I am like a wild coyote. You corner me, I will fight to the death. I love America, i love the idea of it. I am broken hearted tho to see people so pacified by materealism and obsession with hollywood stars. It is our duty as American citizens to stand against tyranny. To stand against corruption at all levels. How did this happen? That patriots like me could be resting under the boot of tyrants, and as i plead for help from my fellow americans they just walk on by. All the while thinking, at least its not happening to me. Yet, the sad thing is, it is happening to them. So, do I kill cops and make a stand when they come to get me? I would prefer to die than sit in their jail, when I have done nothing to hurt anyone.

Source: http://planet.infowars.com/offbeat/the-police-to-kill-or-not-to-kill

He was last active over one-year ago. And on his account one of his friends is his wife Amanda Woodruff then shown to be engaged, as well as himself, shown within her profile:

About me: My name is Amanda and I’m 20 years old. I’m also engaged. I’m so sick of what the Government is getting away and how the people around are asleep. I’m so glad to finally found someone I love who agrees with me and doesn’t think I’m crazy for what I believe and for who I am.

Heroes: My fiance

http://planet.infowars.com/members/twiggy/profile/

[dannno]

I choose to not associate with people who can't handle reality. That's just me. I view that as a weakness that will come back to bite the particular person and the group who he associates with.

Right, so I guess you don't drink coffee and don't associate with anybody who does.

Get off your damn high horse.

From my experience, people who get up and drink coffee and sit in a cubicle have more problems with "reality" than any drug addict I've ever known.

This is coming from somebody who gets up, drinks coffee and sits in a cubicle.

[bunklocoempire]

You have a son who's going into the police, and you understand the problems with police, so you'd probably have a very interesting perspective on this, what did you think of Cantwell's comment?


This is where the "broad brush" accusations become valid. I don't think for a second that every single cop without exception defends assaulting women and children and killing dogs.

Mind you, I'm not saying that means there is a single cop who isn't part of the problem. I'm not saying the cops that don't do this are noble or heroic. Really, the best they can possibly do is fail to show up for worked, followed by treating people courteously where they unknowingly steal from and kidnap people.

I guess I just don't view myself as being at total war with the police the same way some of you guys do. That's not to say that I condone or support them in any way. I guess I just don't go as far with it as possible. While I could kill a cop to protect my life, I am not going to look for an opportunity to do it, and I don't think you should either.

Mind you, I'm talking about individually taking action here. I'm not talking about an organized armed secession movement. In that type of situation my suggestions would change some, because then you have some goal that at least doesn't count on being killed.



I honestly don't know what would happen. I think that the cop who genuinely believes they are doing good (note: I don't think this is all or even most cops. It may even be a minority of cops, actually. That wouldn't surprise me at all. But I do believe they exist) would have to at least accept my calling them out as my free speech right, even if it offended them. Now, if you're contention is that there isn't a single cop in the country who would not kill me, arrest me, or in some way legally harass me over it, and if you are correct about that, than you'd probably be right when you say that there isn't a single well meaning cop in the country. But I don't believe that that's the case.

I know a police captain personally, and we've discussed politics before. While I've never came out and said "being a cop is evil", I've definitely hinted at the problems with policing and attacked the existence of the State in our conversations. And even if I did flat out tell him that his job was evil, I am confident I would survive the situation (I'd likely tick my family off more than him, actually;)) Mind you, he's a Christian as well. Atheists and agnostics who become cops, their only loyalty is the State, and that's truly a terrifying thought...

Here's the comment I believe you are referring to:

People say the officers were “simply eating lunch” and so this was a clear cut case of murder. I could not disagree more. Those officers were merely taking a short break from the aggressions all police commit day in, and day out. Immediately after they got done with their break, they would inevitably have returned to their regular duties of harassing and extorting motorists, kidnapping people for possessing plants. They paid for their food, with money that was taken from people under the threats of violence that are taxation, and fines. While it’s a lot easier to draw the connection in something like the Justin Bourque incident, the fact remains that all police are aggressors. There is no such thing as a good cop.

Interesting perspective? No, not really, just practical if anything, but maybe practical is the new interesting? I live in a sinful world with sinners, myself being the chief of those sinners because I know myself the best.

That said, I totally understand where he's coming from. Police are not free men, they are willing property of the "law", law that WILL naturally become perverted -if not already (we're fully saturated with perverted law, for a long, long time now).

Those who are simply ignorant (uninformed, not stupid) or inexperienced in life going into it, as my own son is, have been duped into doubting that protecting their own liberty (BoR), and protecting their fellow mans liberty, is the BEST way to help their fellow man. It's a gang perpetuated by doubt -and a convenient pay check as Cantwell points out. <-- Doubt leaves the door wide open for -you name it.

Those who go into it with eyes wide open... well, their undeclared belief IMO, is placing infringement of rights above the rights themselves as a better "solution" to best help their fellow man. <-- That absolutely attracts dangerous elements. How could it not?

Then we have the dangerous elements themselves.:mad: But it's totally to be expected.:(

Lastly would be the very best case scenario. An upright and informed man working in a system that is naturally bound to fail. But would an upright informed man really be in a system that is not absolutely voluntary? No. Again doubt enters the picture. You either believe in liberty or you don't. Courage vs. fear.

Who started this aggressive ball rolling out of doubt, pride, and fear? Logic dictates that truly free men embracing what is needed to protect their own and their fellow man's liberty, solid faith, humbleness, and courage, would have no need to start this.

Sinful man is sooooooo predictable. Especially when there's a paycheck theft involved from the beginning and encouragement to not keep doubt, pride, and fear in check. It's all been said in some way before, but that's my perspective. Again, sinful men in a sinful world. It's pretty cut and dried.

No fear!

[JK/SEA]

reality is for people who can't handle drugs....

[dannno]

Just wonderful, and now we already enter the bonus round:

The shooter Jared, has had a Planet Inforwars account, right after the site went online, dated May 28, 2012 in Guns, Offbeat, Politics, Preparedness, Resistance; Tags: Laws, nazi, Patriots, police, rights :



The Police (to kill or not to kill?)



Source: http://planet.infowars.com/offbeat/the-police-to-kill-or-not-to-kill

He was last active over one-year ago. And on his account one of his friends is his wife Amanda Woodruff then shown to be engaged, as well as himself, shown within her profile:

About me: My name is Amanda and I’m 20 years old. I’m also engaged. I’m so sick of what the Government is getting away and how the people around are asleep. I’m so glad to finally found someone I love who agrees with me and doesn’t think I’m crazy for what I believe and for who I am.

Heroes: My fiance

http://planet.infowars.com/members/twiggy/profile/

So that's how weed kills.. People get kidnapped for possessing a plant, imprisoned and have all of their rights taken away, they get pissed off and kill their kidnappers. Sounds like a natural reaction to me.

[AuH20]

Right, so I guess you don't drink coffee and don't associate with anybody who does.

Get off your damn high horse.

From my experience, people who get up and drink coffee and sit in a cubicle have more problems with "reality" than any drug addict I've ever known.

This is coming from somebody who gets up, drinks coffee and sits in a cubicle.

I'm talking about drug addicts who depend on the chemical crutch everyday. Don't have anything against a disciplined drug user. Have no use for addicts who's behavior is controlled by an inanimate object.

[dannno]

I'm talking about drug addicts who depend on the chemical crutch everyday. Don't have anything against a disciplined drug user. Have no use for addicts who's behavior is controlled by an inanimate object.

Oh well I was calling him a drug addict based on how the media would portray him, I have no idea what if any drugs legal or illegal he was using on a daily basis.

[jllundqu]

Just wonderful, and now we already enter the bonus round:

The shooter Jared, has had a Planet Inforwars account, right after the site went online, dated May 28, 2012 in Guns, Offbeat, Politics, Preparedness, Resistance; Tags: Laws, nazi, Patriots, police, rights:



The Police (to kill or not to kill?)



Source: http://planet.infowars.com/offbeat/the-police-to-kill-or-not-to-kill

He was last active over one-year ago. And on his account one of his friends is his wife Amanda Woodruff then shown to be engaged, as well as himself, shown within her profile:

About me: My name is Amanda and I’m 20 years old. I’m also engaged. I’m so sick of what the Government is getting away and how the people around are asleep. I’m so glad to finally found someone I love who agrees with me and doesn’t think I’m crazy for what I believe and for who I am.

Heroes: My fiance

http://planet.infowars.com/members/twiggy/profile/

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/1120giz.gif


lol

[AuH20]

reality is for people who can't handle drugs....

More that people that can't handle the daily rigors of life so they turn to a fantasy world. The only problem that after the high wears off, the problems are still there staring them smack in the face. It's total escapism. We need less escapism and more problem solving as a society. And escapism isn't only utilized by drug addicts. It's everywhere you look. Our culture promotes escapism through mass media.

[jllundqu]

More that people that can't handle the daily rigors of life so they turn to a fantasy world. The only problem that after the high wears off, the problems are still there staring them smack in the face. It's total escapism. We need less escapism and more problem solving as a society.

Agreed. I don't think drugs should be illegal, but habitutal users are weak people who can't handle real life.

[AuH20]

Agreed. I don't think drugs should be illegal, but habitutal users are weak people who can't handle real life.

And in some cases, some of these people have legitimate excuses for this lifestyle (child abuse, war trauma, etc.), but it's ultimately a dead end. I think these two fell into that sphere and concocted some hairbrain scheme to start a revolution by murdering two innocent, lowly cops, who are in ample supply in this country. Nothing has changed since their mission was completed.

[jllundqu]

And in some cases, some of these people have legitimate excuses for this lifestyle (child abuse, war trauma, etc.), but it's ultimately a dead end. I think these two fell into that sphere and concocted some hairbrain scheme to start a revolution by murdering two innocent, lowly cops, who are in ample supply in this country. Nothing has changed since their mission was completed.

Careful refering to them as 'innocent'.... you might be labeled a police-sympathizer. :rolleyes:

[AuH20]

The Raw Story comments are the delusions of imbeciles. They support the Obama global corporate partnership and they have the gall to criticize us as lackeys of the establishment? Wackos.

[dannno]

More that people that can't handle the daily rigors of life so they turn to a fantasy world. The only problem that after the high wears off, the problems are still there staring them smack in the face. It's total escapism. We need less escapism and more problem solving as a society. And escapism isn't only utilized by drug addicts. It's everywhere you look. Our culture promotes escapism through mass media.

If that was true then why has drug addiction risen as the amount of physical labor required of people has declined?

More people are addicted to drugs because they have no direction and society is fucked up, that is the fault of government.

[dannno]

And escapism isn't only utilized by drug addicts. It's everywhere you look. Our culture promotes escapism through mass media.

I think a lot of addicts have come to realize how fucked up the society they live in is and choose to continue to escape using drugs rather than the escapism offered by society because when you realize how fucked up society is it becomes difficult to use their methods of escapism effectively.

In other words, addicts are the relatively evolved form of a generally brain dead society.

[ZENemy]

The media is going insane with this, they must have said "Don't tread on me" 10 times..."The man had a dont tread on me" "The couple...dont tread on me sticker"




At first they came for the "Conspiracy theorist"

[dannno]

The officer claims that this was an accident that occurred when he was cleaning his gun, and that excuse was enough to absolve him of any charges. However, if he was not a police officer he would at the very least be charged with manslaughter.



Mundane version:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57523506-78/truman-conrad-wife-heidy.html.csp

[FloralScent]

False, motherfucking flag. All these 'random' acts of violence are too damn convenient, and I think we can all agree our so called press is nothing more than the propaganda wing of International Communism/NWO. There's a precedent for all this, it was called Operation Gladio, and anyone who thinks they would commit these acts in Europe but the States are somehow off limits is a damn fool.

[jllundqu]

fROM HIS fb PAGE


On 2 May 2014, the suspect posted the following on his Facebook page: “There is no greater cause to
die for than liberty. To die for that cause is easy, to live for it is another matter. I will willingly die for
liberty. Death, in a sense is freedom from tyranny. Death, is the easy way out. Most notably is the
‘suicide by cop’ routine. Yes, standing before despots is dangerous and most likely does not end well
for you. I know this, my wife knows this. Soon they will come for us, because they don’t like what we
think and what we say. They don’t like the fact that we, simply will not submit to fascist rule. We
don’t have much, but we are willing to sacrifice everything…..for you, for your freedoms. Even if you
wouldn’t let us have ours. We know who we are and what we stand for, do you?”

[jllundqu]

And this too:


Preliminary research indicates Jerad Miller was also a follower of Facebook pages “Copblock” and
“Police the Police,” which appear to be anti-law enforcement pages.

[AuH20]

False, motherfucking flag. All these 'random' acts of violence are too damn convenient, and I think we can all agree our so called press is nothing more than the propaganda wing of International Communism/NWO. There's a precedent for all this, it was called Operation Gladio, and anyone who thinks they would commit these acts in Europe but the States are somehow off limits is a damn fool.

I don't know about that. There are people graced with knowledge who are mentallly unstable. In turn, they make poor decisions with this knowledge.

[jllundqu]

This too:


Social media postings by Jerad Miller indicate he may have spent a short time at the Bundy
ranch, before being asked to leave by the militia, possibly due to his legal issues.
• A social network site, likely belonging to Jerad Miller, contained a 19 April 2014 posting about the
Bundy Ranch, stating “They are going around doing background checks. I was down there for a week
doing over watch and other things. I was not causing problems. Even stood armed next to a cop. I
volunteered my info so they wouldn’t waste an hour doing a check…My family has bled for this nation
and our freedoms and I will not let their sacrifice go unanswered without my own sacrifice. So let
them call me a criminal. Let them smear my name all over the place…We need to quit quibbling and
bickering with each other and stand together.”


I was out there but they told
me and my wife to leave because I am a felon

[Anti Federalist]

fROM HIS fb PAGE


On 2 May 2014, the suspect posted the following on his Facebook page: “There is no greater cause to
die for than liberty. To die for that cause is easy, to live for it is another matter. I will willingly die for
liberty. Death, in a sense is freedom from tyranny. Death, is the easy way out. Most notably is the
‘suicide by cop’ routine. Yes, standing before despots is dangerous and most likely does not end well
for you. I know this, my wife knows this. Soon they will come for us, because they don’t like what we
think and what we say. They don’t like the fact that we, simply will not submit to fascist rule. We
don’t have much, but we are willing to sacrifice everything…..for you, for your freedoms. Even if you
wouldn’t let us have ours. We know who we are and what we stand for, do you?”



Rubber, meet road.

So, do you backpedal, scurry back into the corner and shut up, while the brave heroes are shown on government media being given a heroes funeral?

Or do you keep plugging away, knowing that tomorrow the heroes will be back at work, blowing up toddlers and shooting people's dogs?

I officially retract my previous statement in post #62.

While I do not endorse their action, I understand their sentiment.

I would much rather see Bundy Ranch re-played a 100 times over every day.

Let the oppressors be forced to strike first.

[Valli6]

Was this the same couple that they rebuked at the Bundy Ranch? It supposedly was a young couple like this and one of them was a felon. So this may be the same people.
Was wondering the same thing. And this afternoon, on foxnews Shepard Smith asked why they were kicked out of Bundy Ranch and someone answered that it was because he was a felon.

Think Pr0gre$$ is claiming that the guy in this video from Bundy Ranch is Jerad Miller (skip to 0:38).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6b2y9jVkAo

[hardrightedge]

That's him in the video...

Did ThinkProgress report that that Bundy's kicked him off the ranch?

[Valli6]

That's him in the video...

Did ThinkProgress report that that Bundy's kicked him off the ranch?

Eventually, they did add an update which links to an AP story:

Cliven Bundy’s son told the Associated Press that “Jerad and Amanda Miller were asked to leave his father’s ranch after being there for a few days this spring,” claiming that they were “very radical.” “Not very many people were asked to leave,” he said. “I think they may have been the only ones.”

Bundy's Son: Las Vegas Shooters Kicked off Ranch
LAS VEGAS June 9, 2014 (AP)
By MICHELLE RINDELS and MARTIN GRIFFITH Associated Press
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/dead-shooting-vegas-restaurant-walmart-24049592

[RPfan1992]

More info on the shooters. NBC now claiming that they are Nazi's.

Las Vegas Cop-Killers Hated Government and Left Swastika on Body
Las Vegas couple who shot to death two police officers, a civilian and themselves — after telling a neighbor they were headed to an "underground world" — had an anti-government, anti-police ideology with militia and white supremacist overtones, authorities said Monday.

Investigators believe ex-con Jerad Miller and his wife, Amanda, acted alone during Sunday's blood-thirsty rampage, but they are investigating possible links between the pair and militants who converged on rancher Cliven Bundy's property during his armed standoff with federal rangers.

"At this time, we believe this is an isolated act," Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill said at a briefing.

The duo left calling cards of their world view on the bodies of the slain cops: a "Don't Tread on Me" flag, a note that read "The revolution is beginning" and a swastika meant to equate police with the Nazis, McMahill said The couple's ideology was no secret, yet a neighbor who saw them set off on foot Sunday morning with a red shopping cart carrying weapons and ammunition was not alarmed enough to call police.

"I thought they were talking out of their neck," Kelly Fielder told NBC Los Angeles.

She said Jerad Miller, 31, had two guns and bullets and Amanda, 22, had a .38 caliber handgun in her purse and a rifle.

"We gotta do what we gotta do," Jerad Miller told Fielder, adding that they were departing for an "underground world" and needed protection.

Amanda Miller then embraced Fielder and said, "I am so sorry."

Police believe the couple walked the four miles to CiCi's Pizza, where Officers Alyn Beck, 42, and Igor Soldo, 32, were having lunch in a booth.

As the duo strode by the cops' booth, the husband pulled out a handgun and shot Soldo once in the back of the head, killing him instantly. Beck began to react, and Jerad Miller opened fire, hitting him in the throat. HIs wife then pulled out her pistol and shot him several more times, police said. The suspects pulled the officers out of the booth to the floor and stripped them of their weapons and ammunition.

The swastika and the Revolutionary War-era Gadsden flag, which depicts a coiled snake and the words “Don’t Tread On Me," were left on Beck. The note was pinned to Saldo.

The shooters then walked out of the pizzeria, grabbed the backpacks they had left outside and headed across the road to a Walmart.

Barging through the front door, Jerad Miller fired off one round, announced "a revolution" and told everyone to leave, while his wife hung back, putting their bags in a store cart.

“They just said, ‘The revolution’s begun,’ they said that they shot some officers, and basically get out of the store if you don’t want to get hurt,” said Tyrone Ellis, who works at the store.

Standing near the registers was Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31, of Las Vegas, who happened to have a concealed weapon and decided to intervene "immediately and heroically," McMahill said.

But Wilcox didn't realize Amanda Miller, now inside the store, was with the armed man and he walked right by her on his way to end the attack. As he passed her, she pulled out a gun and shot him in the ribs, killing him.

When cops arrived at the store, they found the suspects fleeing toward the rear. The officers split into two five-man teams, and one of them made contact with the Millers.

A gunfight ensued, and both suspects were wounded. An officer monitoring the pair on a surveillance camera saw them build a barricade with merchandise they had grabbed while running through the Walmart.

As police waited for SWAT teams, Amanda Miller fired several rounds into her husband and then "ended her own life with one gunshot to the head," McMahill said. Police said Jerad Miller has a criminal record for car theft. He and his wife had lived in Washington State and Indiana before moving to Las Vegas in January.

Fielder portrayed Jerad Miller as the dominant partner in the relationship — "He was a very controlling person" — and suggested his wife was not happy about his anti-government rhetoric.

Fielder said he had expressed a desire to overthrow the government and kill police officers and put swastikas on their bodies — statements that Fielder did not take seriously.

The couple had traveled with Fielder to the ranch where Cliven Bundy led an armed standoff with federal rangers, but Fielder said she didn't stay.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/las-vegas-cop-killers-hated-government-left-swastika-body-n126666

[AuH20]

It was the same tattooed felon that they turned away:

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-las-vegas-shooters-and-bundys.html

[devil21]

Wow, what an amazing script. It's the SPLC's wet dream come true. Gadsden flags, swastikas, guns, Bundy Ranch, Alex Jones, Ron Paul, etc. How convenient and fortunate for the SPLC, only weeks after they were officially (whatever that's worth) cut as a federal government supplier of propaganda.

[TheTexan]

Cop haters.

[JK/SEA]

ok, so they were not nazi's...

well maybe we can have that conversation now....

these people caused this to themselves...

what the ding dong doodle is going on here?

[tod evans]

This is where the "broad brush" accusations become valid. I don't think for a second that every single cop without exception defends assaulting women and children and killing dogs.

Mind you, I'm not saying that means there is a single cop who isn't part of the problem. I'm not saying the cops that don't do this are noble or heroic. Really, the best they can possibly do is fail to show up for worked, followed by treating people courteously where they unknowingly steal from and kidnap people.

I guess I just don't view myself as being at total war with the police the same way some of you guys do. That's not to say that I condone or support them in any way. I guess I just don't go as far with it as possible. While I could kill a cop to protect my life, I am not going to look for an opportunity to do it, and I don't think you should either.

Mind you, I'm talking about individually taking action here. I'm not talking about an organized armed secession movement. In that type of situation my suggestions would change some, because then you have some goal that at least doesn't count on being killed.


Any man who voluntarily signs on to a squad/gang/group/ that has openly declared war on the citizenry that pays their salary has intentionally aligned himself with those who regularly assault men, woman and children most often in their sleep...

The gang in blue has chosen the tactics and declared the war and now folks whine about it when some joker uses their own tactics against them...

I fully expect the term "insurgent" to become common place in the MSM when referring to citizens who fight back...



As for me, I'll say a prayer for this young man and his wife and I'll refrain from cursing the gang-members they murdered....

[ravedown]

wow, here we go. almost every news site is using this to label tea party, libertarian, NRA member etc a wacko. ive read- "gasden flag" "Ron Paul books" "Bundy supporter" . i think what we're seeing is the left, after months of obama getting hammered in the media finally expressing built up aggression and vitriol towards a movement that has taken over the spotlight...this is their chance to pin a damning label on it and attempt to marginalize it for future use. but they forget that in the 24 hour non-stop news and social media world, the public will likely move on eventually and forget about most of this.

[DamianTV]

wow, here we go. almost every news site is using this to label tea party, libertarian, NRA member etc a wacko. ive read- "gasden flag" "Ron Paul books" "Bundy supporter" . i think what we're seeing is the left, after months of obama getting hammered in the media finally expressing built up aggression and vitriol towards a movement that has taken over the spotlight...this is their chance to pin a damning label on it and attempt to marginalize it for future use. but they forget that in the 24 hour non-stop news and social media world, the public will likely move on eventually and forget about most of this.

Theyre playing the part of the Illusion of Choice again with the Two Party System.

All that is really happening is they wait for people to get sick of this form of tyranny and say that form of tyranny is better, and people fall for it, hook, line, and sinker.

[devil21]

wow, here we go. almost every news site is using this to label tea party, libertarian, NRA member etc a wacko. ive read- "gasden flag" "Ron Paul books" "Bundy supporter" . i think what we're seeing is the left, after months of obama getting hammered in the media finally expressing built up aggression and vitriol towards a movement that has taken over the spotlight...this is their chance to pin a damning label on it and attempt to marginalize it for future use. but they forget that in the 24 hour non-stop news and social media world, the public will likely move on eventually and forget about most of this.

Not if the politicians and their media sycophants have something to say about it. They'll remind of "it" (whatever it really is) every chance they get. Don't think for a second that Dana Bash won't try to tie Rand to these people simply because of Ron's name having been injected into it. It's the only ammo they have but they'll use it. They don't care.

Anyone also notice that these facebook pages were "discovered" by none other than the head Wonkette, a website known for it's over-the-top vitriol against all things conservative? I haven't looked into it yet but those pages could have easily been created in advance with all the buzzwords the left loves to demonize Tea Party types with. I'm not entirely sure this whole thing isn't concocted and staged but I have serious reservations about these facebook pages, at least. They just seem "too good to be true" for our opposition, especially with the homegrown terrorist taskforce and Boxer's confiscation bill just announced days before.

-----------
This same guy was interviewed on NBC about the Bundy Ranch before and was asked to leave the Bundy property afterward. I'm getting pretty close to calling bullshit on this whole thing.

[ZENemy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA_tZiIdVKg

[Peace&Freedom]

That's ridiculous. Don't know who he is, and I won't be reading his murderous nonsense. It sounds like some neoconservative who wants to kill children in foreign lands because "they are all terrorists anyway". And it also sounds like those cops who view all citizens as dangerous criminals.

Cantwell is a sometime stand-up comic who is one of those "mixed bag" LP personalities I run into in NY. He mixes his politics with his routine a lot, thus has a tendency for overstatement or profanity. I have happened to stand side by side with him at some protests, including one last year when he and I were the only LP people to show up. So I can confirm his dedication, just wish he was not carelessly inflammatory, as in this case.

[TheTexan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA_tZiIdVKg

"Anti-government conspiracy buffs, who had spoken to neighbors about white supremacy, blah blah gadsden flag blah blah don't tread on me."

How much you want to bet they just threw "white supremacy" in there for shits and giggles

[Tod]

Public discussion from Facebook....:

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=nf)



8 hrs ·


Seems they were fans of CopBlock.org and Larken Rose.

See, Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7) is a big boy. He knows what he's doing. He realizes that speaking out and taking the positions he does will have consequences for his life. I admire him for what he's doing.
On the other hand when someone takes controversial positions speaking as a part of a group, he can hurt everyone in the group.
H/T Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14)

https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCovsgWCpK606OC&w=470&h=246&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motherjones.com%2Ffiles%2Fscr een_shot_2014-06-09_at_12.13.43_pm.png&cfs=1&upscale&sx=0&sy=8&sw=630&sh=330
(http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/jerad-amanda-miller-las-vegas-shooting-cliven-bundy-anti-government)
The pro-gun, anti-government, Cliven Bundy-loving social media posts of the Las Vegas shooting... (http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motherjones.com%2Fpolitic s%2F2014%2F06%2Fjerad-amanda-miller-las-vegas-shooting-cliven-bundy-anti-government&h=MAQHLqDEV&s=1)
Their Facebook and YouTube likes included the NRA, Rand Paul,...
Mother Jones









Janet Marie Tapia (https://www.facebook.com/janet.m.tapia?fref=ufi) There is no justification in killing anyone ...except in self-defense....
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791865324165017)

חולדה לירן (https://www.facebook.com/larisa.zubkova.5?fref=ufi) What a sad and misguided couple of fools....I dont understand how a simple message of NAP gets so lost with people so horribly.
7 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791872227497660)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) why do you believe they even did it? government told you?

they just pick people who they can use to blame an entire movement, kill some folks, then blame some patsies..

ofcourse they liked larken rose and copblock..

also what controversial position is larken taking? and how does someone speak as part of a group? like singing in a choir?

how does that hurt the group? please make sense..
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791872637497619)

Elon Weintraub (https://www.facebook.com/elon.weintraub?fref=ufi) Of course they did it. They were dead on the scene with guns in their hands and a suicide manifesto conveniently published only the day before. There were witnesses to the shooting. You do not need the government to explain what happened. Nor is it competent enough to pull such an airtight frame job going back months.
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791883224163227)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) You don't understand so therefore I don't make sense. Perf.

Cantwell posted an article he wrote via the CopBlock page. He's a moderator there.

In posting the article, he repeated his belief that it was good news that there were "two less police in the world." He posted this AS COPBLOCK, NOT as Christopher Cantwell.
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791884840829732)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) larkens position is you have a right to self defense
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791885704162979)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) I don't have any beef with Larken Rose.
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) what does this mean: "On the other hand when someone takes controversial positions speaking as a part of a group, he can hurt everyone in the group"
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) ^^ answered
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) on some other thread?
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) explain to me how someone talking as part of a group hurts the group

what do you mean by hurt? harm? someone doing harm is initiating force

if you talk as part of a group are you initiating force on the group
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) are you talking about cantwell the whole time?

if the 'harm' is that irrational violent collectivists will attack people indiscriminately, its not the person who speaks in a group that is doing the harm.. its the violent collectivists
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) OK so if the president of Coca-Cola decides to advocate pedophilia, and people stop buying Coke because of that, it's the public's fault?
7 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) so what company is larken or cantwell the ceo of? and what profits will be lost, what customers do they have?
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791895707495312)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) There is no point in this. Bye.
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) your equivocating, there is a difference between a 'group' and a for profit corporation

there is no point to this because your wrong, and don't want to learn why
6 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) No, it's not because "he's wrong," there is no point because you can't have a conversation when the respondent thinks in extremes and is incapable of nothing else: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_%28psychology%29)
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791897760828440)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) which extremes?
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) how does being controversial and part of a group hurt the group?

im looking for some damn clarity here

words mean things, if your going to use words like 'hurt' and 'controversial' i think i would at least like to know what the 'hurt' is, and what the controversy is
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Rustled Jimmies (https://www.facebook.com/abrick.wall.54?fref=ufi) "OK so if the president of Coca-Cola decides to advocate pedophilia, and people stop buying Coke because of that, it's the public's fault?"

If the president of Coca-Cola advocated pedophilia, the board would probably get rid of him. I don't think the public would believe that the entire company was comprised of pedophiles or that drinking a Coca-Cola supports pedophilia.
6 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791900414161508)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) and what extremes?
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) That you launched into a thread with the assertion that an opaque "They" engineered this shooting and presupposing that the OP has settled into a belief about the events, when he's simply drawing an association is one example of "extremes".
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) Someone's pet personal ethical philosophy ("I have the right to kill cops but it's not presently wise to do so") can be easily conflated with mainstream events such as this one and subject an entire organization like CopBlock to potential adverse reactions from law enforcement officers who are much more liable to commit aggressive attacks against street activists while moral busybodies who perceive themselves as merely truth sayers by repeating that "killing cops is defensible, according to the NAP", will overwhelmingly never have the balls to act on that principle. Not only is killing police poor strategy, talking about it (and postmarking it) as if it might become a viable plan is dangerous for those who are movement members and do get their hands dirty by actively engaging systems of power in the streets.
6 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791906264160923)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) so you don't think government could do false flags? and you trust what they say? its extreme to doubt government?

he didn't just draw an association, he asserted that members of the group harm the group when they say controversial things

so i wanted to know what controversial thing, and how they harmed the group
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) who is claiming they have a right to kill cops

they have a right to self defense, cops violate it with deadly force and deadly threat
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791906784160871)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) its a major claim to claim saying stuff hurts the group, who here can't be considered a member of hundreds of 'groups', if you were doing harm by speaking they would have justification for defending against your harm. so its not extreme to ask for clarification when someone uses such reckless phrasing
6 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) i also don't understand how self defense is controversial among so called anarchists
6 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791908217494061)

Rustled Jimmies (https://www.facebook.com/abrick.wall.54?fref=ufi) "Not only is killing police poor strategy..."

That depends on what the goal is. If a cop is directly violating your liberties or threatening to violate your liberties, is killing that cop considered to be "poor strategy?"

"...talking about it (and postmarking it) as if it might become a viable plan is dangerous for those who are movement members and do get their hands dirty by actively engaging systems of power in the streets."

The danger from those "in the streets" is already present and often materializes without anyone claiming a moral justification to kill aggressive state agents with retaliatory force.

But I'd like to know what constitutes "getting their hands dirty?" If simply protesting is "dirtying your hands," then we have an issue with both language and proportionality. The state - which openly engages in extortion, enslavement, and murder - doesn't really give two shits about sign-waving, shouting, and Youtube videos. That ought to be obvious.
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791910334160516)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) If you open the link to the article from Mother Jones, you will find at the bottom of the page the alleged woman perpetrator's YouTube "likes" which include posts by Larken Rose and CopBlock.org (CopBlock being a police accountability org that recently published Cantwell's article celebrating the death of two officers and repeating within his article his belief that kiling cops is justifiable according to the NAP, but ultimately suicidal, and not presently pragmatic). If an organization that has up until now taken a somewhat peaceful approach to reform is associated with the belief that killing cops is justified (and whether that's true or not is beside the point), it is possible that it can become internal justification from LEOs for fatal run-ins with CopBlock members during their evening surveil of police activities. Self-defense isn't controversial, but when liberty movement members have adverse standing compared to society at large, positions can be taken out of context and utilized against them (and sometimes that falls back on innocent people). Resorting to the argument that "government is inherently violent so who cares?" absolutely puts the conversation between two extremes, and doesn't take into account all the human activity that takes place between an undesirable state of affairs and a desirable goal.
5 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 3 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791911884160361)

Rustled Jimmies (https://www.facebook.com/abrick.wall.54?fref=ufi) "Self-defense isn't controversial, but when liberty movement members have adverse standing compared to society at large, positions can be taken out of context and utilized against them (and sometimes that falls back on innocent people)."

Sounds to me like a problem with the immoral, aggressive agents of the state - which is the original problem being protested. Their immoral and illogical justification to use further force is not a result of those speaking out against them.

Cause and effect is being conflated here.
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791912777493605)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) can you not put out such a huge block of text at once? i am asking simple 1 line questions.. can you keep it to 1 answer and not running on and on with assumptions and non sequiturs
if the leos are the ones initiating force it is them that are doing harm, not those that talk
and if they are only saying defense is justified in certain situations (and impractical in most situations), it is dishonest to characterize them as saying murder all cops..
5 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) ya don't blame the victim..
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791913504160199)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) and don't blame those that point out who the criminals are
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791913544160195)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) and don't blame those that point out that victims have a right to defend their lives
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791913584160191)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) and don't presume to regulate those who are part of a 'grouping', especially when that grouping is defined by their stance on peoples rights to defend themselves..
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791913664160183)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) Rustled Jimmies, seeing that neither you or Willi Spooner are going to individually take up arms against the State, it's a rather empty reply to keep repeating how violent they are to someone who is obviously already aware of that. What is repeating how violent the government gaining you at this moment when there is absolutely no expectation that this state of affairs is going to shift dramatically to your favor any time soon?
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) No one characterized anyone as saying "murder all cops"; but those who try to apply the NAP consistently come to that conclusion (as Cantwell does), falls short of encouraging it but also argue that it may, depending how many you can convert to the cause, become strategically appropriate (personally, I think it's a Pollyanish view). No one's blaming the victim; I've said that the victims can be taken out of context and have their positions used against them, especially when they are being conflated with incidences (such as the one above) that garner national attention.
5 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791918597493023)

Rustled Jimmies (https://www.facebook.com/abrick.wall.54?fref=ufi) "Rustled Jimmies, seeing that neither you or Willi Spooner are going to individually take up arms against the State..."

You should not assume to know what others will do in the future.

And have you ever considered that it is people who publicly state their refusal to acknowledge that violent retaliation is morally justifiable against aggressors that keeps those willing to retaliate from retaliating? Why should someone "individually take up arms against the State?" Why shouldn't those who acknowledge the state's nature be at least willing to join - or even support - that cause?

There seems to be a lot of moral and philosophical agreement on principles in the libertarian and anarchist movements, but very little willingness to actually speak about the conclusions of those principles or to support any action on those principles. It seems that most of these people are more concerned with appearing to be compassionate or pacifist than responding to or retaliating against actual, violent aggression from the state. Words without action are just words - and the state knows it...the state lives by it...the state consistently acts on their words and their threats. But we're expected to just TALK about it, and only to a point that falls short of even considering the moral justification for potential future actions?
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) I'm fairly confident that none of you will take up arms, now or in the future. As far as talking about it, I've heard Barney speak on this issue on a few different threads; I don't believe his position is that no one should talk about it, but he, understandably, had concerns that it was being pushed under the banner of CopBlock, a group that has historically focused on police transparency, and not "defensive force." If there is a shift in their organization's goals regarding strategy and "defensive force, so be it, but there has been no formal statement that this is the case, so the casual advancement of the idea that "killing cops is justified" can certainly fall back on others in the organization who don't share that moral position (not all CopBlock participants/members/supporters are "anarchists", some support the functions of law enforcement but wish it to be improved).
5 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791927360825480)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) If they were "fans" of mine, their comprehension skills sucked. Knocking off someone having lunch is not an act of self-defense. (If there was some particular reason they targeted those two cops as retribution for some particular act, I haven't heard it, so I won't bother debating that side of things.) And having a "revolution"--the kind with bullets and bombs--does exactly nothing to fix the underlying problem, which is the belief in "government." Speaking of which, the alleged shooters* were also apparently "fans" of all sorts of statist organizations, so they seemed to favor "statism lite" and had no particular philosophy at all, other than anger and frustration. (* Do I accept the mainstream version of what happened? Um, no. I can imagine it, but I can just as easily imagine half a dozen other twists and fabrications designed to serve the control freaks' agenda.)
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 21 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791929297491953)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) quiet larken, you are a controversial person and we can't have you talking in our group
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791929590825257)

Russ Dove (https://www.facebook.com/russdove?fref=ufi) The fact of the matter is that for whatever convenient explanation that the media gives this type of activity is and will continue to increase for many reasons, the biggest is that the human animal is not domesticateable beyond its comfort zone - history shows the victor's always kill the traitors and humans always rebel at some point.
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

William Spooner (https://www.facebook.com/william.spooner.94?fref=ufi) i can only hope that this propaganda has a diminishing effect and on a smaller and smaller number of people..

id hope it has no effect on anyone in the anarchy movement though
5 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) William, just for that, I'll add this: do I mourn the death of those cops? Well, considering the fact that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that those cops didn't initiate violence on a daily basis against people who weren't threatening or harming anyone, I mourn their deaths less than I mourn the many hundreds of other people who died that day who WEREN'T professional mercenaries for politicians. I would much rather no one be killed by anyone, but if a plumber or a janitor dies, it's a bigger loss to humanity than when a car-jacker, a cop, or some other parasitical aggressor dies.
5 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 11 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791931357491747)

Michael Yurovich (https://www.facebook.com/yurovich?fref=ufi) It smells like MKUltra.
4 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791936887491194)

Adrian Jank (https://www.facebook.com/adrian.jank?fref=ufi) I'd like to start a new "conspiracy theory" here and connect some dots that don't actually exist. : P
"The Dawn of a New Day. May all of our sacrifices be worth it." - Jared Miller

http://www.mojvideo.com/video-jordan.../e20c2f6ca6f3ff95751d (http://www.mojvideo.com/video-jordan-maxwell-the-dawn-of-a-new-day-1-2/e20c2f6ca6f3ff95751d)
3 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) Gary Lynn, no one has suggested that those ideologies are innately "evil" but they can be (n the fuzzy world of media) made to appear as products of the belief systems of mentally disturbed people. Conceptual association is a psychologically powerful method to discredit positions when they are connected to infamous police killers across national media. It matters not one bit if the correlation is flimsy; it has the advantage of a hyper-intensified media environment. This thread was not about the alleged killer's ideologies though; it was about how CopBlock (an organization that represents people of all political ideologies) could be subject to the same decontextualizing by seeming to give tacit approval to the murder of cops.
3 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791961007488782)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Being a fan of videos discussing the ethics of shooting police officers is not the same thing ad liking coffee.
3 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Also, what Perry said.
3 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) I don't think you were alone in this view either Barney (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52), not by a long shot. A lot of disappointed commenters on the CopBlock post.
3 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Gary Lynn Williams (https://www.facebook.com/gary.l.williams?fref=ufi) Perry, I was trying to address what I know will happen in the media. Namely that people who have these ideologies will be blanketly downplayed as kooks due to the actions of these 2 individuals. I hope I'm wrong.
3 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Gary Lynn Williams (https://www.facebook.com/gary.l.williams?fref=ufi) Barney, looking at and being a "fan of videos discussing the ethics of shooting police officers" is also NOT the same as actually committing the act of murder, against police or anyone else. We don't have thought police, yet. The act of agression and murder is wrong, regardless of who it is against - police or anyone else. Thought and ideology are not criminal, again YET.
3 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Putting ideas out there with your name on it has consequences.

That's all.

Ad I have said elsewhere, Larken is a big boy and knows what he's doing. Cantwell cares for no one but himself.
3 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791965817488301)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) You should also note that Larken represents himself; CopBlock represents people all over the ideological spectrum, and has members that will have to go out and face potentially angry and equally radicalized police officers whose departments could, maybe, perhaps, draw the conclusion that CopBlock has lent its tacit approval to the murder of cops. Tripwire...
2 hrs · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791969307487952)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Unlike me, there are people out there doing it for real. I fear for them.
2 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) In this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDDxibGiq9Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDDxibGiq9Q)), Larken (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7) says, starting at 2:29, "Imagine there is some cop who gets his jollies by beating black people to death. So every day or two he finds some black person and beats them to death. And we all know it and it's caught on video and there's no dispute, so this isn't a suspicion or an accusation like tons of people have seen it, it's on video, he brags about it because, hey, he's in a community of people who believes as Jody (FSP person) does, in the 'immediate danger' standard, and because of that, he keeps doing this; we keep not catching him in the act. And we catch him 2 minutes after, Oh, there's his latest dead victim, but golly, there's no imminent danger because the victim is dead and right now he isn't threatening anyone else so according to Jody and the other people who believe in this, apparently that means we can't do anything about it. We can't tackle him, we can't take him hostage and put him on trial, we can't shoot him, we can't do anything because the imminent danger isn't there. So we go, ah, darn it, missed again, so we let them keep murdering people and hopefully one of these times we'll catch him in the act, 'cause then we'd be allowed to stop him. That makes no sense and it is hugely immoral. It's a totally pro-slavery/anti-freedom position to say that an aggressor, as long as, if you don't catch him in the act, you can't do anything about it. You can protest, you can boycott, you can whine at him, but if he is not in the act of attacking somebody, it's not okay to go do something about it......
Actually, it is. If there there was some road cop randomly beating people to death as a hobby, I personally on my own have the right to go hunt him down and kill him."

Fact: ALL cops initiate violence against people, some of whom have committed no "crime" at all and many (most) who have committed some "victimless crime".

Using Larken's logic above, anyone has the right to take a stand against a cop because, by virtue of their occupation they meet all of the criteria as the person in Larken's scenario EXCEPT for the nature of the violence committed. Instead of murdering a black person, it is some other violent act, but the violent act ALWAYS comes with the understanding -the credible threat - that the cop can and will do whatever it takes to obtain compliance up to and including killing the subject. Had the shooters in LV attempted anything less than immediately shooting the cops, they would have been at serious risk of being shot themselves.

Okay, tell me where my interpretation of Larken's scenario and justification is incorrect. What do you think, Larken and Don Cooper (https://www.facebook.com/dccomedy) and Antonio Buehler (https://www.facebook.com/Antonio.Buehler)?https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDb9rD1aT0Cb1Zm&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FyDDxibGiq9Q%2 Fhqdefault.jpg&jq=100 (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply)The "Immediate Danger" Standard (and the FSP) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDDxibGiq9Q)
It has been easy to find the Free State Project board condemning Christopher Cantwell for his comments about the use of force, but not so easy to find where ...







1 hr · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Remove Preview (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Uh yeah, but a cop who kills people for fun is not in the same category as a copy who may only write tickets.
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791995337485349)

Antonio Buehler (https://www.facebook.com/Antonio.Buehler?fref=ufi) Preemptively killing people because they MAY at some point engage in a violent act is the same twisted and moronic logic that the cops use to murder people.
1 hr · Unlike (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 6 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791996604151889)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Barney, this is from, "When should you shoot a cop", by Larken.
"If a cop decides to treat you like livestock, whether he does it “legally” or not, you will usually have only two options: submit, or kill the cop. You can’t resist a cop “just a little” and get away with it. He will always call in more of his fellow gang members, until you are subdued or dead."
In this, Larken says that you "usually have only two option: submit or kill the cop", regardless of whether he is just robbing you (citation).
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Antonio, that is what Don argued a while back, while Larken took the above stance.
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Antonio Buehler (https://www.facebook.com/Antonio.Buehler?fref=ufi) "If you question their right to detain you, interrogate you, search you, invade your home, and so on, you are very likely to be tasered, physically assaulted, kidnapped, put in a cage, or shot. "

I've had all these things done to me other than having my home invaded, being tasered (although I avoided that by seconds) and being shot. I still don't have any ethical justification for going out and killing cops. Anyone who defends the two murderous clowns in Vegas is an idiot. People need to check their morality. There's too many libertarians/ancaps who are degenerate thinkers.
1 hr · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=791997644151785)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Larken, in this thread above is not defending the shooters, but if one applies the logic he outlined in my long comment, he probably would be defending them if he were being consistent.
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Antonio Buehler (https://www.facebook.com/Antonio.Buehler?fref=ufi) Good, if he was defending the shooters he'd be a clown.
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Have you watched his video where he makes the argument that appears to support what the shooters did?
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) (he made the video shortly before the shooting, and before the Bourque shooting too, I think.)
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Antonio Buehler (https://www.facebook.com/Antonio.Buehler?fref=ufi) No, I don't want to watch it. I'm tired of libertarians who dance around the fringes of advocating violence. I sincerely hope he didn't say something so stupid.

1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=791999350818281&offset=0&total_comments=84&notif_t=share_reply#)

Antonio Buehler (https://www.facebook.com/Antonio.Buehler?fref=ufi) Further, any person who defends and associates with Cantwell is a loser.
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792019084149641&offset=0&total_comments=85&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) "Preemptively killing people because they MAY at some point engage in a violent act is the same twisted and moronic logic that the cops use to murder people."

YEP!

If you extend this out to what many libertarians are saying right now, we can kill individual people because they belong to a GROUP that engages in violent acts. Which is why it's ok to kill soldiers in war. Which is the root of the whole problem.

Groupthink: I can kill you because you are part of a group that might kill people in my group.

Throw the fucking rifle down and go home, we would all be better off.
11 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792019084149641&offset=0&total_comments=85&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792019084149641)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Barney, I disagree with your portrayal of the thinking. The thinking is NOT that because someone is part of a group that they might kill people in my group. Rather, it is because some individual has volunteered to initiate violence and does it routinely as part of his work and he HAS committed acts of violence with the understanding that he will do what it takes to obtain compliance. There is no group think about it.

[phill4paul]

What is it with "skin heads" named Jared?

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTwSTKLgtUlqzav0kU81tPVsCJ8wdODn nXAtB6AqqPgIkYVvfR5uy9FzA

[ravedown]

once again, elliott roger gets neglected and forgotten. that kid just can't win.

[RM918]

There is absolutely NO FUCKING EXCUSE for walking up to ANYONE and shooting them in the back of the head. If these people did what they are purported to do, and the false flag wolf has been called too many times for me to take it seriously so I believe they did, they are the highest order pieces of shit no better than any other mass shooter. Your sentiments are disgusting and you've gone way too far when you're accepting just going out and killing people in cold blood and I'm kind of depressed that I have to be the first person here to say it. Your assertion that ALL cops have declared war on the citizenry by signing up makes exactly as much sense as when socialists claim we all signed a social contract just by existing.

The drug war is disgusting and a lot of cops are going out of control and not getting charged for it, but violating the NAP is the line and you've let your hatred for individuals encompass an entire group and crossed it.

[RM918]

Any man who voluntarily signs on to a squad/gang/group/ that has openly declared war on the citizenry that pays their salary has intentionally aligned himself with those who regularly assault men, woman and children most often in their sleep...

The gang in blue has chosen the tactics and declared the war and now folks whine about it when some joker uses their own tactics against them...

I fully expect the term "insurgent" to become common place in the MSM when referring to citizens who fight back...



As for me, I'll say a prayer for this young man and his wife and I'll refrain from cursing the gang-members they murdered....

There is absolutely NO FUCKING EXCUSE for these shits walking up to ANYONE and shooting them in the back of the head. If these people did what they are purported to do, and the false flag wolf has been called too many times for me to take it seriously so I believe they did, they are the highest order pieces of shit no better than any other mass shooter. Your sentiments are disgusting and you've gone way too far when you're accepting just going out and killing people in cold blood and I'm kind of depressed that I have to be the first person here to say it. Your assertion that ALL cops have declared war on the citizenry by signing up makes exactly as much sense as when socialists claim we all signed a social contract just by existing.

The drug war is disgusting and a lot of cops are going out of control and not getting charged for it, but violating the NAP is the line and you've let your hatred for individuals encompass an entire group and crossed it.

[Czolgosz]

They wrote strongly worded letters w/ bullets and guns. http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/assenav_lp/new/clapping.gif

[Anti Federalist]

There is absolutely NO FUCKING EXCUSE for walking up to ANYONE and shooting them in the back of the head. If these people did what they are purported to do, and the false flag wolf has been called too many times for me to take it seriously so I believe they did, they are the highest order pieces of shit no better than any other mass shooter. Your sentiments are disgusting and you've gone way too far when you're accepting just going out and killing people in cold blood and I'm kind of depressed that I have to be the first person here to say it. Your assertion that ALL cops have declared war on the citizenry by signing up makes exactly as much sense as when socialists claim we all signed a social contract just by existing.

The drug war is disgusting and a lot of cops are going out of control and not getting charged for it, but violating the NAP is the line and you've let your hatred for individuals encompass an entire group and crossed it.

My thoughts:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453644-Three-Murders-in-Las-Vegas-Feeding-the-Beast-Rather-than-Starving-It

[RM918]

My thoughts:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453644-Three-Murders-in-Las-Vegas-Feeding-the-Beast-Rather-than-Starving-It

And I 100% agree with you if your position is Will Grigg's position.

[Weston White]

Preliminary research indicates Jerad Miller was also a follower of Facebook pages “Copblock” and
“Police the Police,” which appear to be anti-law enforcement pages.

Why is it that if you are proactive in demanding governmental accountability, you somehow become misshaped into being anti-whatever? And how telling it is that those held to such scrutiny hold such negative views of their “adversaries”? In the case of law enforcement personnel, who is it that is actually being protected and served? Is it now not more the case that they are the protected, while the citizens are the served?

[UWDude]

once again, elliott roger gets neglected and forgotten. that kid just can't win.

LoL!!!!!

[Tod]

The Facebook discussion continues. Larken came online to enter the discussion, and in my opinion he is trying to distance himself from his own words. Is he afraid of being labelled a provocateur, of inciting the violence? Or am I really dense or dishonest, as he suggests?



Jeff Crawford (https://www.facebook.com/jeff.crawford.50767?fref=ufi) ahh so one of the fake shootings hits close to home ... it's unfortunate that they want to demonize us .. but also points out that they sure don't like the philosophies here ... and see them as a threat in some way ... no one hurt ..no one died ... keep your eyes open ...
2 hrs · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Fake shootings? So William N. Grigg (https://www.facebook.com/william.n.grigg) is in on this too? Get the fuck off my page, dipshit.
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792033280814888)

Jeff Crawford (https://www.facebook.com/jeff.crawford.50767?fref=ufi) k Barney ... back to sleep ...shhhhh
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Tod, you understand that most cops are paid through property taxes, right? And property taxes are paid by people who choose to move into a certain neighborhood?
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Yeah, I am asleep. Only a fucktard would claim that.

1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) Funny, that those who accuse others of being sleep, talk (or write) in the desultory manner of those with psychogenic fugue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugue_state
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Jeff Crawford (https://www.facebook.com/jeff.crawford.50767?fref=ufi) lol ..wow full of insults and vitriol .... oh I'm sorry ..you are right .. the Govt doesn't stage on of these and they have no agenda .. my bad .. carry on ....
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) I do not willingly pay taxes and I know of no place without them. The way I see it, the main problem with these shootings is that they do nothing but garner sympathy for the cops and the police state, which is counterproductive.
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Perry St (https://www.facebook.com/st.perry.14?fref=ufi) Conjecture is not worth the fucking tip jar, Jeff. You got something of substance to add, add it; if it's nothing but speculation you can't prove (but only infer) than shut the fuck up about how "in the know" you are.
1 hr · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792034974148052)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Tod, funny how you keep quoting things, and then magically filling in things I DIDN'T say. If the cops were having lunch, not even writing a ticket, it obviously wasn't an example of self-defense. (And, like I said before, I've seen nothing indicating that it was in response to any particular action by those particular cops, so I don't bother considering that possible justification.) I'm perfectly consistent with myself. I'm just not consistent with stuff YOU make up that I never said, and don't believe. Nothing in my articles or videos is about "going out and killing cops" just for the heck of it, despite what statists and pseudo-libertarians may pretend.

51 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792049687479914)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Ah, but Larken, you DID say this: "Actually, it is. If there there was some road cop randomly beating people to death as a hobby, I personally on my own have the right to go hunt him down and kill him."

48 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Antonio, please answer this question: does a person have the right to resist an aggressor, using whatever level of force necessary to stop the aggressor? Or at some point do good people have a moral obligation to ALLOW themselves to be victimized and abused? (For bonus points, does some magical alleged "authority" of the aggressor change the moral equation?)

48 mins · Unlike (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792050134146536)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Tod, yes, I know what I said. And if you think THAT meant "go out and kill cops for fun," you're either dense or dishonest.

48 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792050200813196)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Tod only answers those questions he feels he can be clever about.

47 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) I know that you believe it is unwise because you will almost certainly end up dead, you are clearly saying that it is morally permissible.

47 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Tod, I'm still not sure if you're dense or dishonest, but it's definitely one of those. It's not like I haven't written and said enough things on the topic that you have an excuse of misunderstanding.

46 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792050664146483)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Tod you are engaging in groupthink.
46 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Larken, it is obvious that you are just trying to distance yourself from your own words.

45 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Tod, if you really can't tell the difference between: a) killing someone who is a known serial killer (with a badge) and; b) killing someone having lunch because he's wearing a uniform, then maybe learn to think before you try debating.

44 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 3 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792051420813074)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) I have no problem at all with my words. It's your lies I take issue with.
44 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792051517479731)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) WHAT WORDS?

43 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Barney, he likes to quote me, and then MAKE UP things I didn't say or mean, and attribute those things to me. Which is why he's either an idiot or a liar. Still not sure which.

42 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792051820813034)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) I would invite everyone to listen to Larken's videos and hear for yourself what he says. He is always careful to add that he does not recommend what he is suggesting because it will not end well. You can find them on You Tube.

42 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Amber Moon (https://www.facebook.com/theambermoon?fref=ufi) " I would invite everyone to listen to Larken's videos and hear for yourself what he says. He is always careful to add that he does not recommend what he is suggesting because it will not end well. You can find them on You Tube."

I have done so, and Todd, you are full of crap.
41 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 1 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792052427479640)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) I would invite people to do that too, and make sure your comprehension skills are better than Tod's.

41 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792052454146304)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Tod, tell me, seriously, can you really not comprehend a difference between the two following scenarios: 1) a guy with a badge has been committing murder after murder, in broad daylight, so someone kills him; 2) a cop is having lunch and someone shoots him.

40 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Because YOU just proclaimed those to be the same thing in principle, which is profoundly stupid or intentionally dishonest.

39 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) It's pretty amazing, as blunt as I've been for years on this issue, that some people still feel the need to try to "read into things" (a.k.a. make shit up) what I didn't say and didn't mean.

37 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Either way, he's not worth your time.
37 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Larken, I most assuredly do see a difference, and I noted them. I also pointed out that something as innocuous as a traffic citation carries with it the real threat of death to force compliance.

36 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Barney Cox (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52?fref=ufi) Those fuckers probably watched "Natural Born Killers" too many times.

They were just suicide bombers looking for eternal fame. And they knew the media would give it to them.
35 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Larken Rose (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7?fref=ufi) Tod, gee, I never thought of that before! (Yes, that was sarcasm.) Barney is right. Having a discussion with someone being intellectually dishonest is pointless. Goodnight.

35 mins · Edited (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#) · 2 (https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=792054237479459)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Larken, does a person have the right to resist an aggressor, using whatever level of force necessary to stop the aggressor? Or at some point do good people have a moral obligation to ALLOW themselves to be victimized and abused?

35 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Brian Nuckols (https://www.facebook.com/brian.nuckols.31?fref=ufi) Obama = Christian. Because of that any transgression by someone who likes Christianity on Facebook should immediately be attributed to Obama.
27 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Brian Nuckols (https://www.facebook.com/brian.nuckols.31?fref=ufi) Muhhh false equivalency. Seems like anyone that has been rustled by Cantwell is rushing to get their shots in.
26 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) "To be blunt, if you have the right to do 'A', it means that if someone tries to stop you from doing 'A', even if he has a badge and a politician's scribble, (sometimes called 'law') on his side, you have the right to use whatever amount of force is necessary to resist that person. That's what it means to have an unalienable right. If you have the unalienable right to speak your mind, a la the first amendment, then if all else fails, you have the right to kill government agents who try to shut you up...."

19 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Brian Nuckols (https://www.facebook.com/brian.nuckols.31?fref=ufi)
8 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)

Tod Mills (https://www.facebook.com/tod.mills?fref=ufi) Larken wrote, " Tod, yes, I know what I said. And if you think THAT meant "go out and kill cops for fun," you're either dense or dishonest."
It is not about fun. It is about standing up for one's unalienable rights or bowing down as a slave.. It is you who is being dense or dishonest.

3 mins · Like (https://www.facebook.com/barney.cox.52/posts/791862560831960?comment_id=792054237479459&offset=0&total_comments=124&notif_t=share_reply#)


Pertinent videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDDxibGiq9Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9w1HHRMQw

[Constitutional Paulicy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUIQ17lj9HQ&feature=youtube_gdata

[tod evans]

There is absolutely NO FUCKING EXCUSE for these shits walking up to ANYONE and shooting them in the back of the head. If these people did what they are purported to do, and the false flag wolf has been called too many times for me to take it seriously so I believe they did, they are the highest order pieces of shit no better than any other mass shooter. Your sentiments are disgusting and you've gone way too far when you're accepting just going out and killing people in cold blood and I'm kind of depressed that I have to be the first person here to say it. Your assertion that ALL cops have declared war on the citizenry by signing up makes exactly as much sense as when socialists claim we all signed a social contract just by existing.

The drug war is disgusting and a lot of cops are going out of control and not getting charged for it, but violating the NAP is the line and you've let your hatred for individuals encompass an entire group and crossed it.

You're severely misguided if you came away with me condoning these folks behavior instead of understanding it.

As far as my belief that cops, ALL COPS, knowingly accept pay from and then wage war on the citizenry.....I stand firmly behind it! Just read the newz and not just todays or this years news go back a few decades.

Once again I'll state publically; The NAP is a good and noble idea but I don't have the temperament or life experience to embrace it.

This appears to be the classic example of the lesser of two evils, "The cop gang" and "some couple whom the gang had abused"......My sympathy, understanding and prayers align more with the evil that undertook violence in response to abuse instead of those who engage in violence for pay.

[Weston White]

Barney Cox

Cantwell posted an article he wrote via the CopBlock page. He's a moderator there.

In posting the article, he repeated his belief that it was good news that there were "two less police in the world." He posted this AS COPBLOCK, NOT as Christopher Cantwell.

OK so if the president of Coca-Cola decides to advocate pedophilia, and people stop buying Coke because of that, it's the public's fault?

No, Mr. Cantwell merely commented upon his thoughts on CopBlock by posting there as Christopher Cantwell. Conversely, if he had edited or censored other’s posts on CopBlock, he would have acted upon the behalf of Copblock as one of their moderators. Mr. Cantwell is not CopBlock’s founder, but a moderator and member. Ergo, the line-supervisor of your nearby Taco Bell does not represent all Taco Bells throughout the globe.

If the president of any company advocated anything contrary to its articles of incorporation or mission statement, then the board of that company would likely dismiss that president, hire a new president, who would then send out an apologetic press-release, and life would go on, the sun would shine, flowers would bloom, bees would buzz, etc, etc, etc.

Regardless, if a company’s customers boycott anything of their own willpower so as to protest against another’s thoughts, then yes it is the fault of those customers, because they took such an action solely on their own behalf and are thus responsible for the consequences of those actions; however, in result of cause and effect the company is likely to suffer financially as a result, while its customers will suffer in avoidance of products they otherwise need or enjoy.


Perry St

…it is possible that it can become internal justification from LEOs for fatal run-ins with CopBlock members during their evening surveil of police activities. …but when liberty movement members have adverse standing compared to society at large, positions can be taken out of context and utilized against them (and sometimes that falls back on innocent people).

It already has, all LEO need to do is utter their magical terms of their profession: made furtive movements, acted suspiciously, being evasive, challenged their authority as an officer of the law, impeded an investigation, obstructed justice, resisted arrest, appeared to be pulling out a firearm, concerned that a cell-phone case was being used to conceal a firearm within it, feared for officer safety, intended to Taser them in the back while handcuffed on the ground with nearly a dozen other officers present, yet standing around, but pulled out sidearm in error, the force was used in accordance with departmental policy, the LEO tripped and bumped their head sustaining a concussion that resulted in them unwillingly beating in the face of the their prisoner, the prisoner’s recording violates felony wiring tapping laws, the government’s CCTV was offline that day, etc.

[tod evans]

"It's a tragic day. But we will have a community to police, and we'll still have a community to protect. We will be out there doing it with our heads held high, but with an emptiness in our hearts."
- Sheriff Doug Gillespie (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/09/las-vegas-shooting-officers-dead-possible-white-supremacists/?intcmp=latestnews)

This is the same joker who refused to turn away the feds and help the Bundy family....

[Cap]

I don't have the time to read this entire thread, but I wonder if anyone had wondered if the situation that took place a few years ago, "West Point grad and army vet, Eric Scott who was gunned down by the Las Vegas PD in a Costco parking lot", influenced the couple doing what they did? A percentage of Blowback perhaps?

[Christian Liberty]

Any man who voluntarily signs on to a squad/gang/group/ that has openly declared war on the citizenry that pays their salary has intentionally aligned himself with those who regularly assault men, woman and children most often in their sleep...

The gang in blue has chosen the tactics and declared the war and now folks whine about it when some joker uses their own tactics against them...

I fully expect the term "insurgent" to become common place in the MSM when referring to citizens who fight back...



As for me, I'll say a prayer for this young man and his wife and I'll refrain from cursing the gang-members they murdered....
Do you think I'm OK with it when cops do it? I know you know better than that.

Here's the bottom line. What if the worst thing these particular cops did was pull people over and write tickets? Its not justifiable, but they certainly didn't deserve death (in that instance) either.

Cantwell is a sometime stand-up comic who is one of those "mixed bag" LP personalities I run into in NY. He mixes his politics with his routine a lot, thus has a tendency for overstatement or profanity. I have happened to stand side by side with him at some protests, including one last year when he and I were the only LP people to show up. So I can confirm his dedication, just wish he was not carelessly inflammatory, as in this case.

Was Cantwell kidding? It didn't seem that way to me.


There is absolutely NO FUCKING EXCUSE for walking up to ANYONE and shooting them in the back of the head.

I don't agree with this statement as written. Mind you, its something that's true 99.999% of the time. But I don't think its always true.

To borrow some ideas (and somewhat modify it) from the Larken video that was posted: If there was a gang member who was a known serial killer, yet he had too many bodyguards for anyone to be able to stop him, and one day he happened to be eating lunch alone. Would it be wrong to shoot him in the back of the head? Assume for whatever reason that the police would not do anything to this man if they were called, because they are paid off by this man, and if you do a citizens arrest they will lock you up and let him go for the same reason. This man has been videotaped committing serial murder, and multiple people have seen him do it. Is it wrong to shoot him in the back of the head? I say no.

Mind you, I'm not saying this is comparable. Its very likely that the cops in question were not known serial killers. Its very likely that their crimes are not worthy of death. But if that's the case, that's what we should be defending, not a position that its always wrong to shoot a known, untouchable criminal in the back of the head. I would say that its wrong because we don't know that these people are murderers.


If these people did what they are purported to do, and the false flag wolf has been called too many times for me to take it seriously so I believe they did, they are the highest order pieces of shit no better than any other mass shooter. Your sentiments are disgusting and you've gone way too far when you're accepting just going out and killing people in cold blood and I'm kind of depressed that I have to be the first person here to say it. Your assertion that ALL cops have declared war on the citizenry by signing up makes exactly as much sense as when socialists claim we all signed a social contract just by existing.


Again, I'm not defending it, but its not comparable to the social contract. All cops are required to enforce the government's laws.

THe important distinction that needs to be made is the distinction between self-defense and justice. In self-defense cases, you have the right to use any degree of force necessary to end a violent confrontation. But in justice cases (vigilante or otherwise) the punishment has to fit the crime. To kill someone for theft is overboard, even if we assume that they realize that they are thieves (I don't think most cops do). In a self-defense case it could be justified, but to give the death penalty in order to punish theft would be overboard.

Mind you, despite strongly disagreeing with Cantwell's answers, I think he's asking the right questions. We should be asking to what degree the common cop is guilty and what the justified response would be. I just don't think this is justified unless they committed murder or perhaps some other serious crime (I could personally justify it for rape, but I can see that as being more debatable.)

My thoughts:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453644-Three-Murders-in-Las-Vegas-Feeding-the-Beast-Rather-than-Starving-It

I agree with Will Grigg.

The Facebook discussion continues. Larken came online to enter the discussion, and in my opinion he is trying to distance himself from his own words. Is he afraid of being labelled a provocateur, of inciting the violence? Or am I really dense or dishonest, as he suggests?




Pertinent videos:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDDxibGiq9Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ9w1HHRMQw



Its possible that he's afraid of being accused of being a provocateur. But I don't think he's being inconsistent. I understand his point.

Two cops who are eating lunch in uniform. We really know nothing about these people. Its theoretically possible that they're just wearing uniforms (which wouldn't rightly be a crime, though it would be "impersonating a cop" in current law.) Its most likely the case that they are in fact cops, and if they are cops, they've almost certainly violated the NAP. But in what ways? Maybe they've just written tickets. Maybe they've made arrests but never killed anybody. Maybe they are in fact murderers.

I'm not sure exactly where the line is between "deserving of death" and "not deserving of death." For me ignorance is going to play a role but I don't know whether it objectively should or not. Regardless, even if ignorance is not the standard, the death penalty is certainly not proportional for theft (fines and so forth.) Maybe you could make the argument that proportionality doesn't apply because its impossible to deliver a lesser penalty to a cop. Regardless, I don't think Larken is being inconsistent. He's making a distinction between protecting yourself against a cop, vigilante justice against a cop we know is a murderer, and vigilante justice against somebody wearing a cop uniform who we don't know anything about. He's saying the first two scenarios are justified and the last scenario is not justified. I don't see the inconsistency.

This is the same joker who refused to turn away the feds and help the Bundy family....

lol! I'll start respecting these cops when they start arresting the Feds. Absolutely agree.

[green73]

MSNBC, ladies and gentleman...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irAyP7BFeKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irAyP7BFeKw

Oh noes! He liked Ron and Rand and Judge Nap on his facebook page!

[tod evans]

MSNBC, ladies and gentleman...

Oh noes! He liked Ron and Rand and Judge Nap on his facebook page!

I tried but the unbridled copsuckery was just too much for me to stomach....

http://www.mydisplayimage.com/blog/premium/anim_blowjob.gif

[Suzanimal]

I tried but the unbridled copsuckery was just too much for me to stomach....

http://www.mydisplayimage.com/blog/premium/anim_blowjob.gif

Yeah, I listened to the AJ bit and then they started copsucking so I had to skip forward and listened to her read his FB likes ~ she was quite dramatic when she read Rand Paul 2016 and Ron Paul.:rolleyes:

[donnay]

The state media operation is laughable anymore. They just get their script and run with it. :rolleyes:

[Pericles]

The state media operation is laughable anymore. They just get their script and run with it. :rolleyes:

Most, if not all media outlets are party organs.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Watching the local L.V. news, a point which struck me as strange was the interview with their landlord lady, who stated, "The Millers, had an arsenal of weapons and bullets...". Now why would they strip the officers of their weapons and ammunition, when they have a huge arsenal at their home? The landlady said she's remorseful after seeing such a stash of weapons, for not calling the police to inform them of the Miller's huge cache.


So why this spontaneous oddball attack, which appears to be Ad Hoc without use of their 'arsenal'?

Maybe I missed something, but I find it Very Odd in the current bazaar state of this country.

[Tod]

Jared Miller speaks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F762Y5VDUjc

[AuH20]

Most, if not all media outlets are party organs.

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-22651-Journalism-is-printing-what-so-PQFt.jpeg

[Pericles]

Watching the local L.V. news, a point which struck me as strange was the interview with their landlord lady, who stated, "The Millers, had an arsenal of weapons and bullets...". Now why would they strip the officers of their weapons and ammunition, when they have a huge arsenal at their home? The landlady said she's remorseful after seeing such a stash of weapons, for not calling the police to inform them of the Miller's huge cache.


So why this spontaneous oddball attack, which appears to be Ad Hoc without use of their 'arsenal'?

Maybe I missed something, but I find it Very Odd in the current bazaar state of this country.

A shotgun and a couple of pistols is not an arsenal. This is an arsenal (and a pretty weak one at that):

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/Pericles-photo/prepared_zpsd95194d3.jpg

[AuH20]

This is so damn funny!!!

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10352386_866133376747562_5821349764177220131_n.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/CoalitiontoStopGunViolence/photos/a.149713771722863.24741.147886928572214/866133376747562/?type=1&fref=nf

[HOLLYWOOD]

Tell that to the landlord lady... she's the one I quoted.


A shotgun and a couple of pistols is not an arsenal. This is an arsenal (and a pretty weak one at that):

[JK/SEA]

MSNBC, ladies and gentleman...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irAyP7BFeKw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irAyP7BFeKw

Oh noes! He liked Ron and Rand and Judge Nap on his facebook page!


fucking bullshit from MSLSD...

I know you all know that, but i felt compelled to put it in writing to make it official.

[cjm]

fucking bullshit from MSLSD...

I know you all know that, but i felt compelled to put it in writing to make it official.

I second this^

8:30: open carry groups going into restaurants are terrifying people.
8:45: there are real threats
8:50: someone walked* into Luby's to kill people.

She neglects to mention that Texas doesn't allow open carry (of handguns) and that the concealed carry laws at the time prevented a patron from being armed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanna_Hupp#Surviving_the_Luby.27s_massacre.2C_su bsequent_activism) during the attack.

ETA: *The Luby's guy didn't walk into the restaurant. He drove his pickup through the front window. I'm not sure how folks would confuse this with every day carry.

[Anti Federalist]

Those funny anti-freedom folks won't "tread" on anything.

They'll send their proxies:

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SWAT_team.jpg


This is so damn funny!!!

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10352386_866133376747562_5821349764177220131_n.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/CoalitiontoStopGunViolence/photos/a.149713771722863.24741.147886928572214/866133376747562/?type=1&fref=nf

[FloralScent]

///////////

[liberty2897]

//

[Danke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APWhx97QvxE

[green73]

//

[liberty2897]

[delete]
sorry didn't mean to kill discussion.

[Pericles]

Those funny anti-freedom folks won't "tread" on anything.

They'll send their proxies:



Which is why we need to make it clear that sending those proxies will have personal ramifications.

[devil21]

Las Vegas PD releases this video of the Walmart "shooting", with a straight face.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPeS5oBeXXI

Come on. No muzzle flash, no recoil, nothing to indicate any gunshots. Looks fake as hell.

[Zippyjuan]

I see recoil from her shot. (about 18 seconds the pistol jumps up). How much muzzle flash would a pistol that size have and would such a crappy video image really be able to show it?

[Christian Liberty]

At the moment, I still think Larken had the most logical perspective of anybody. I can obviously understand why anybody who knew those cops personally would feel differently about it. But ultimately, I think Larken is right. We shouldn't be freaking out that "a cop" was killed. Two people, people who chose a wicked, parasitical line of work but nonetheless should not have been shot, were killed. We shouldn't mourn over them any more than we would had a plummer been shot, but it wasn't OK either.

[Thor]

Interesting talk from Kokesh on the issue in response to this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/09/las-vegas-couple-shooting/10248805/


Jerad Miller and his wife, Amanda, loved super villains.

They walked about their Las Vegas apartment complex dressed as Batman villains, the Joker and his vampy sidekick Harley Quinn. Amanda Miller's Facebook profile photo shows the pair in their Joker costumes.

Police say it was a window into the couple's troubled lives. Underneath their painted faces, they were a homicidal rage against authority.

The couple opened fire Sunday in a Las Vegas pizza restaurant and killed two police officers, draping one body with a "don't tread on me" flag and a swastika. On another, they pinned a menacing note, authorities said Monday.

Then the couple fatally shot another man in a nearby Walmart before officers cornered them. At that point, police said, Amanda Miller, 22, shot her husband and then herself.

As the public reacts with horror, investigators are trying to piece together details on how the couple graduated from anti-government rhetoric to murder.

"To stop this oppression, I fear, can only be accomplished with bloodshed," Jerad Miller, 31, posted on Facebook on June 2. "I, however would rather die fighting for freedom, than live on my knees as a slave."

The couple's social media postings serve as an anatomy of their anti-government, pro-gun beliefs. Jerad Miller was particularly prolific about his hate against the government and police authority, often going on screeds against President Obama and gun restrictions.

The couple were part of a growing far-right, anti-government movement that has exploded in followers in recent years, said Mark Potok, senior fellow of the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups.

The center was not monitoring Jerad and Amanda Miller specifically. But through the couple's Facebook postings and clues left at the bloody scene, it's clear they adhered to the anti-government "Patriot" movement," Potok said.

The Patriot movement, which was the name given to the militia trend of the 1990s, has seen its numbers soar from about 150 known groups before 2008 to more than 1,000 last year, he said. The election of President Obama in fall 2008 was a main catalyst for the rise of anti-government conspirators, Potok said.

"These are groups that believe the federal government is involved in a plot to impose martial law, take away people's weapons … and ultimately force the United States into becoming a socialist country," he said.

According to an analysis of Jerad Miller's Facebook postings by the center, the social media page was littered with signs of his allegiance to the Patriot movement: He cited Patriot guns right activist Adam Kokesh. He "liked" Three Percenter Nation, a Patriot group headed by a former Alabama militiaman, and his profile picture shows two knives and the word "Patriot," with a stars and stripes motif.

Also, the Gadsden flag left at the pizza parlor by Jerad Miller is an emblem of the Patriot movement, Potok said.

Patriot members today constitute one of the most dangerous threats monitored by the center, he said.

"The only terrorist threat we face is not just jihadist," Potok said. "We have a homegrown terrorist movement that poses a very serious threat."

Witnesses say the couple shouted, "this is a revolution" when they walked into the pizza restaurant. And they had sprinkled ominous warnings about their impending spree in the days – and hours – before their anti-government attack.

"The dawn of a new day," read a post on Jerad Miller's Facebook page from June 7. "May all of our coming sacrifices be worth it."

On the morning before they left home with a shopping cart of weapons and 100 rounds of ammunition, they had warned neighbors of their intentions, NBC News reported.

"We gotta do what we gotta do," Jerad Miller told Kelly Fielder, adding that he and his wife, Amanda, were departing for an "underground world."

Amanda Miller then embraced the neighbor and said, "I am so sorry,"

Fielder said she had heard Jerad Miller make anti-government statements in the past — including a desire to overthrow the government and President Obama and kill police officers — but was not alarmed by them, NBC News reported.

"I thought he was just all talk," Fielder, who described herself as Amanda's "best friend," told NBC Los Angeles.

It was talk the couple was not shy about sharing. They could be heard spewing racist and anti-government opinions, another neighbor told the Las Vegas Sun.

The duo told people they planned to commit a mass shooting, Brandon Moore, a resident of the complex, told the newspaper.

"They were handing out white-power propaganda and were talking about doing the next Columbine," Moore said.

The couple married in 2012 and lived in Lafayette, Indiana, where Amanda Miller's parents live. After they were evicted from their apartment, they moved to Las Vegas in January.

Jerad Miller had a troubled history that included a long record of arrests and convictions for drug offenses going back to 2007.

On Facebook, he professed support for Cliven Bundy, the cattle rancher cited for grazing his cattle on public land without a permit. He boasted of spending time at Bundy's ranch during a recent standoff there between armed militia members and federal government agents.

He railed against the landlord who evicted the couple in Indiana and against the prison system for incarcerating him.

"He was just weird, really weird," said Connie Kennedy, a neighbor in Lafayette. She said the first time she met Jerad Miller he rambled on about rampant pollution and America becoming a communist nation.

In July 2013, Jerad Miller posted teary videos on YouTube to his wife before he was sent back to jail for violating an in-house arrest.

"I wish the world was perfect and we could live happily without all this crap," he said.


Adam's 30 minute reply:

Is Adam responsible for Vegas cop murders?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UDFOpqqW9M

[Valli6]

Seen this post from AuH20?

Father: Jared Miller Campaigned For Barack Obama
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453793-Father-Jared-Miller-Campaigned-For-Barack-Obama

He campaigned for Barack Obama. Guess he was never really much of a a white supremacist after all.:rolleyes:
http://m.kirotv.com/news/news/man-las-vegas-shooting-rampage-has-local-connectio/ngHHj/

[ZENemy]

At the moment, I still think Larken had the most logical perspective of anybody. I can obviously understand why anybody who knew those cops personally would feel differently about it. But ultimately, I think Larken is right. We shouldn't be freaking out that "a cop" was killed. Two people, people who chose a wicked, parasitical line of work but nonetheless should not have been shot, were killed. We shouldn't mourn over them any more than we would had a plummer been shot, but it wasn't OK either.


Agreed.

I just wish Kelly Thomas would have gotten even half the emotional reaction as these fascist that were killed.

[Dark_Horse_Rider]

and the Troutdale kid was also name Jared ?

and that baldhead in AZ too ?

how close in time were the Las Vegas and Troutdale " incidents " ?

[Christian Liberty]

Agreed.

I just wish Kelly Thomas would have gotten even half the emotional reaction as these fascist that were killed.

Agreed.

I guess I'm somewhat in the middle on this one. I'm not with Cantwell, and I'm not with the rest of the country.

I view this situation as unfortunate. People were murdered. It happens every day. Its likely, though I won't say certain, that the people in question were jerks. Its also likely, though I won't say certain, that the killing was completely unjustified.

But to me, this isn't really any different than any other shooting of three people. Were the three people children, I'd probably be more upset, however irrational that might be.

By contrast, the Kelly Thomas thing absolutely ticked me off. It wasn't just the fact that somebody was beat to death, it was also the fact that government is completely out of control and does not bind itself by even its own unjust laws. There's no accountability at all. And that ticks me off.

Now, if, rather than being two random cops, this was the cop I know personally, I'd be more angry, even though I disagree with the profession and think participation in it is morally wrong. And I can understand the family and friends of these particular cops being angry. I can even see why the members of that community would be angry But, there's really no reason for the entire country to be angry, or for people on this forum to be angry. We aren't angry every time a shooting happens anywhere. For those who are, good for them (And I mean that sincerely.) For those who aren't, I don't see why its any different because it was a cop. And really, unless there was some specific reason for this attack in particular, its really no better either. More understandable, but not really any better. Killing cops who are eating lunch is completely useless unless those particular cops were exceptionally bad for some reason (again, say they were the murderers of Kelly Thomas.) Even then I don't exactly condone it, and I don't think it would accomplish anything, but then I'd definitely shrug my shoulders and say "got what they deserved." But otherwise, meh.

Yes, I'm more upset for Kelly Thomas than I am about this. I'd still have a hard time nullifying this if the evidence says he did it.

[devil21]

I see recoil from her shot. (about 18 seconds the pistol jumps up). How much muzzle flash would a pistol that size have and would such a crappy video image really be able to show it?

If it could capture what you allege is "recoil" then yes it would capture the muzzle flash too, if she really fired twice as it alleges. Never mind that I've never seen a pistol recoil to the left instead of recoiling upward. The video commentary, wherever that came from, says she then shoots herself but if you watch, she turns the gun toward herself but then turns it back away the moment before it fades to black.

---------

And then there's this little problem. The video, apparently released by the police, conflicts with the police's own statement that it was the cops that killed him, not the wife.
http://news.yahoo.com/las-vegas-gunman-killed-police-not-wife-authorities-192124662.html

[Weston White]

Yes, I'm more upset for Kelly Thomas than I am about this. I'd still have a hard time nullifying this if the evidence says he did it.

Let us not forget about, just naming a few of the many fallen under the tyranny of an out of control democratic governance: Jason Conoscenti, Kelvion Walker, Clinton Peterson, Victor White, III, Bobby Bennett, Chavis Carter, Oscar Grant, Fouad Kaady, Danziger Bridge—Hurricane Katrina, Henry Glover, 9/11, Branch Davidians, Ruby Ridge, Donald Scott, et al.

[Anti Federalist]

Let us not forget about, just naming a few of the many fallen under the tyranny of an out of control democratic governance: Jason Conoscenti, Kelvion Walker, Clinton Peterson, Victor White, III, Bobby Bennett, Chavis Carter, Oscar Grant, Fouad Kaady, Danziger Bridge—Hurricane Katrina, Henry Glover, 9/11, Branch Davidians, Ruby Ridge, Donald Scott, et al.

You forgot Miriam Carey.