Solar Freakin' Roadways

[DGambler]

Somebody posted about it in 2009 but I didn't want to necro the thread.

Very cool, gotta wonder about the cost, traction and ride... But neat concept.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlTA3rnpgzU

[Original_Intent]

I'd be interested to know how much per "hex" Solar Freaking Roadways would cost, and the expected lifespan under normal traffic before it would need replacing.

Cool concept.

[CaptUSA]

Does this answer the question, "Who would build the roads?"

The problem I see with this is that in order to make it economically viable, you'd have to combine too many economic sources. There are lots of industries that could benefit, but none of them enough to front the money on their own. Transportation departments, utilities, insurance companies... Each one of them might find a little value, but in order to overcome the costs, you'd have to add them all together.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Does this answer the question, "Who would build the roads?"

The problem I see with this is that in order to make it economically viable, you'd have to combine too many economic sources. There are lots of industries that could benefit, but none of them enough to front the money on their own. Transportation departments, utilities, insurance companies... Each one of them might find a little value, but in order to overcome the costs, you'd have to add them all together.
employ welfare recipients

[limequat]

The fact that there is virtually zero discussion of cost tells me that it's prohibitively expensive. Sweet idea, I bet we'll see it show up in some private applications.

[mosquitobite]

I could see them used in a restaurant parking lot first. Somewhere that prides itself on being "green". Rainforest Cafe or something like that.

Could be enough of a draw initially that it would be a good marketing ploy.

[DGambler]

I want to know what it would cost to do my driveway and what the ROI is in terms of time vs offset of utility cost. I'd do a 12 month payback, maybe 18, but that's about it.

[Henry Rogue]

Jobs! And it pays for its freakin' self.

Yes, that's right the video invoked the Broken Window Fallacy.

[pcosmar]

Wonder how well they would stand up to snowplows.

[Cleaner44]

Looks like they are raising money to put into production...
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways#home

[Mani]

Wonder how well they would stand up to snowplows.

They self-heat so there's no need for salt or plows.

[Mani]

Looks like they are raising money to put into production...
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways#home


They raised over 1 million already in crowd sourcing, plus they have a couple gov't grants from dept of transportation i Believe.

I like the idea, not sure if it's practical but I like the concept.


I think it can work in Parking Lots, playgrounds, driveways. Think about the giant walmarts and Malls and targets and huge shopping plazas. There could be some potential there. I think it could take off faster in convincing some private businesses to try it out (if the cost isn't too outrageous).

Eventually maybe highways, but I'd like to see it in parking lots first. Commercial businesses have higher electric needs and usage then residential, so it would be interesting if they could show businesses how to save money, get off the grid, and provide FREE charging stations to Electric Vehicles.

Imagine being a retail owner of a large plaza or shop in California with a huge parking lot. You convert it to solar, get off the rid, advertise yourself as an ECO friendly company, and offer FREE recharging to your electronic Vehicle customers!! "Shop at our store and charge up your vehicles for free!!!"

(you could enforce a time limit or make it "with purchase of min. $20" if it gets out of hand, but talk about a positive Media PR bonanza you would get for your business!)

Tree huggers would be having orgasms rushing to your parking lot.

I think there could be a market for that kind of savvy business owner. It could be brilliant!


People could start asking instead of, "Do you buy organic." but now, "Do you shop at solar stores?"

Wow, I think I just created a market segment.



One concept they mentioned is Electronic Vehicles getting charged WHILE on the road itself. I thought that was an interesting concept. Meaning EVs would run on solar energy, rather than run on electricity from fossil fuels, and always being charged.

It sounds amazing, but maybe a generation away or so.



I could definitely see some uses for it.

[UWDude]

The fact that there is virtually zero discussion of cost tells me that it's prohibitively expensive. Sweet idea, I bet we'll see it show up in some private applications.

it would cost something like $56 Trillion, according to one article.

There is really nothing great about the idea. In fact, it is quite stupid, considering you could put the panels on the SIDe of the road, so they wouldn't constantly be getting run over, and still have the exact same effects.

It sounds genius, but isn't at all.


They self-heat so there's no need for salt or plows.

You could still have panels on the side of the road heating the roads with the same effect.

There simply is no reason for building roads of solar panels. they just simply say "if we covered all our raods in solar panels, then our energy crisis would be solved!"

And it is true... ...except that covering all our roads in solar panels is simply IMPOSSIBLE.

[kathy88]

I want to know what it would cost to do my driveway and what the ROI is in terms of time vs offset of utility cost. I'd do a 12 month payback, maybe 18, but that's about it.

I was thinking the same thing. Average estimate for mine to be done correctly, with proper drainage, etc... is 14K. If the solar was comparable I would totally do it.

[Brian4Liberty]

Sounds like a boondoggle. Solyndra all over again. Obama and friends will be happy to throw money into that pit. Some cronies will make out.

[tod evans]

If these gizmos are ever actually affordable it'd make much more sense to use them in a canopy over the roads than to drive on them....

[TruckinMike]

Polycarbonate cost.$2.00 per pound ....a one foot thick panel with embedded electronics might take the abuse of real traffic...but I doubt it. Cold winter contraction, hot summer expansion, endless traffic beating down on it -----I don't think even a foot of poly carbonate would do it. Besides where would we get all of that "green " material from?LoL!
If there is a miracle material out there I don't know about it.

...Interstate highways are made out of one foot thick high psi reinforced Concrete.

[Brian4Liberty]

Parking lots that are in use during the day have cars parked in them. The sunlight does not reach the surface of the parking lot, at least where the cars are parked. It makes more sense to have solar panel covered parking, which is already being done in California. It will be an interesting experiment to see if that actually pays for itself.

[jbauer]

employ welfare recipients

We already have treadmills. Hook up an alternator and inverter and get busy.

[Henry Rogue]

They self-heat so there's no need for salt or plows.
Just went through the coldest winter I can remember. How long would it take to melt a four foot snow drift in negative fifteen degree Fahrenheit temperatures? It would make the conditions worse. If it melted the snow at all it would turn it into a layer of ice.

In my state property owners pay for 1/3 of the road plus curb, gutter, approach and sidewalk. My property taxes would be higher than my house payment.

The initial costs alone would be astronomical. I can't imagine what the maintenance cost would be.

[TonySutton]

If it makes business good business sense, I would think shopping malls and big box stores would start installing them. If not you will only see them as specialty installations. Most like financed through a government program :(

[DGambler]

Just found their FAQ

http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml

[Brian4Liberty]

Just found their FAQ

http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml

LOL. Heaters and LEDs are completely separate, and will use electricity from the existing electric grid. Hard to see how this will result in net gain in cold climates.


In the winter, will the solar cells be able to power the heating elements in the panels?

We designed our panels so the heaters are driven by the grid and not by the solar cells - the systems are independent of one another. This is because the heaters and LEDs have to work at night, when the solar cells are incapable of producing power.

[juleswin]

They self-heat so there's no need for salt or plows.

Wonder if they will be hot enough to melt snow all year like a light bulb or does it have some sort of a thermostat to regulates temp? It just seems a concept that is way too complex for its time.

[tod evans]

LOL. Heaters and LEDs are completely separate, and will use electricity from the existing electric grid. Hard to see how this will result in net gain in cold climates.

http://www.greatjakes.com/content/uploads/2011/04/snake-oil.jpg

[Occam's Banana]

Ah, shuddup, you skeptics & nay-sayers!
Enough with the negative vibes, already.

Yer harshin' my buzz ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUmE-tne5U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUmE-tne5U

:p

[pcosmar]

They self-heat so there's no need for salt or plows.

Bet me.

The amount of heat that would require in my area would far exceed all the power they could produce.

[Mani]

Bet me.

The amount of heat that would require in my area would far exceed all the power they could produce.


No clue. Going by the driveway of the couple in Idaho. I guess that's their beta test. I think they get a lot of snow.

It may all be a bunch of crap. But I do like it when people try and think outside the box and see things from a different perspective and see if the market could accept it.

[pcosmar]

No clue. Going by the driveway of the couple in Idaho. I guess that's their beta test. I think they get a lot of snow.

It may all be a bunch of crap. But I do like it when people try and think outside the box and see things from a different perspective and see if the market could accept it.
Beta test,?
Actually that is a sales pitch.
The paved road up here will do that too.. with less than a quarter inch and daytime.. it will melt off the road.
Until the temps drop below zero,, or the wind piles it up feet thick..

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7350/12816081143_74e495aa57_c.jpg

The wind will pile it up faster that it will melt. Not to mention that the angle of the sun would make them nearly worthless.
We don't have the same sun angle that you have in Florida.

(looking at the shadows in that pic.. that is around noon)

[fisharmor]

The fact that there is virtually zero discussion of cost tells me that it's prohibitively expensive.

Actually, the fact that it's not getting gobbled up by industry, and the fact that the inventors are rooting for a government teat, are two dead ringer indicators that it's not viable.

The adage goes "Build a better mousetrap and the world will come beating down your door".
If the world isn't beating down your door, it's not a better mousetrap.
It's that simple.



...Interstate highways are made out of one foot thick high psi reinforced Concrete.

In four decades I have literally never in my life seen a concrete road getting built. I've seen endless miles of asphalt laid down, but never, ever have I seen a concrete road being built.
I see lots of concrete roads that have been driven on for 50+ years without needing to be repaved, but all the new construction is asphalt which needs repaving every five years.

The reason for this is cost. Concrete is way more expensive than asphalt. So what if it needs repaving every couple years... someone else will be in office at that point.

So we know the bar that has been set. Whatever replaces asphalt roads has to be cheaper than asphalt. Because we already know that concrete is far cheaper in the long run, but it's not used because of the up front cost. Asphalt is the benchmark that has to be beat.

[CaptUSA]

Actually, the fact that it's not getting gobbled up by industry, and the fact that the inventors are rooting for a government teat, are two dead ringer indicators that it's not viable.

Here's the problem as I see it.

Right now, governments build the roads (which is why they're going after that teat). The cost of this system is higher than the current cost of repaving, plowing, de-icing, painting combined.

Right now, utilities build mass generation and distribution. The cost of this system is higher than the cost of building a coal, nuclear, or natural gas plant (and the megawatt return lower), the cost of overhead lines, and the cost of overhead maintenance combined.

Now, if you were able to combine the costs of road-building, energy generation and distribution, throw in some savings from insurance companies, throw in savings from productivity gains (fewer outages with quicker restore times, less storm damage, quicker and more stable commutes), then maybe - just maybe, you might be getting close enough to make this system economically viable.

How you combine all those players to jointly fund such a system? I have no idea. Maybe give the department of transportation budget to a utility and have them maintain the roads? Consider it "driving on the wires"?


I like the dream, but that's all this is. The good thing is that we are going to see more of this type of thing and it won't be long until someone cracks the economic problem.

[fisharmor]

Right now, governments build the roads (which is why they're going after that teat). The cost of this system is higher than the current cost of repaving, plowing, de-icing, painting combined.

But for more flavor...
No matter where you are, you live within 50 miles of a shopping mall which has a gigantic parking lot, a lot of roads, a gigantic roof, and a gigantic electricity and cooling bill.
You also live within 50 miles of a college with a gigantic parking lot, a lot of roads, a gigantic roof, etc.
And a factory, and a box store, and a distribution hub, etc, etc.
There is quite a lot of privately owned and maintained road in this country. One need only look at the snow issue for proof: there are always *two* sets of trucks. The state trucks that plow the "roads", and the private trucks that plow all the roads that apparently don't count as roads.
(Yet another magazine for us in the "who will build the roads" argument.)

And none of those private actors are showing interest.
The way I see it, this is the same as whenever someone figures out a new small car propulsion system or a new generator.... there are literally MILLIONS of individual actors who will fork container ships full of money over to whomever can prove their system works.
That's the litmus test. If the inventor is talking to the state AT ALL, it's a failed idea.


I like the dream, but that's all this is. The good thing is that we are going to see more of this type of thing and it won't be long until someone cracks the economic problem.

The best feature of anything in that video is the fact that the system requires an access ditch on the side of the road. Imagine if none of us had easements on our property for buried lines, and there was a clear delineation between what belongs to you and what belongs to the utility company.
That's a gigantic hidden cost, between running Miss Utility, lost time waiting for the utility companies to service lines on your property, legal matters involved in creating and arguing over easements, and a dozen other problems this clear violation of property right causes.

The state can't even do the objectively right thing with THAT, though, and that's merely a tiny subset of what this couple proposes.

[KingNothing]

I'm a HUGE fan of renewable energy, but there is absolutely no freaking way this would be a good economic venture absent heavy government subsidy.

[Brian4Liberty]

And none of those private actors are showing interest.

Yeah, how many people who think this is a great idea have solar panels on their own roof? Why not? That is existing technology, yet how many people do it?

[Mani]

Yeah, how many people who think this is a great idea have solar panels on their own roof? Why not? That is existing technology, yet how many people do it?

I knew a guy that heated his pool through solar panels on his roof. Florida doesn't offer shit for subsidies like California, but I've seen that pool is damn hot and it works. So I've seen solar work in small applications.

I've also seen people who have successfully put up Solar Panels on their roof and they use it to charge their electronic cars. They call it "driving on sunshine." Again, limited application, not powering the globe or their entire home.

I'm not a BiG solar guy. I know absolutely nothing about it. I figured the guys in Idaho would know what they are talking about regarding winter, because they are absolutely in the worst place I would consider solar viable. The sun angles, the snow, the limited daylight, everything is absolutely wrong.

Personally I think someone could hopefully figure out how to make solar work in the southern states. There's got to be a way to harness that energy in a more efficient way. Whether it be parking lots (even 100% full lots have tons of open areas), or roofs of malls with parking lots, or cover and SHADE the parking spaces (only problem I worry about hurricane standards in Florida).


I think right now it's not an investment that saves money, which is why it's not on the roof of every walmart south of Tennessee or Oklahoma. Some people do it because they like it?? California has the worst power grid in the states right? So I think they give credits or subsidies for people to pop up solar, so I do believe a bunch of people have solar there, but I think only because the gov't credits make it work.


The guy I knew who heats his pool was a do it himself kind of guy. Again, no gov't money involved. I think he did the whole thing himself, so maybe just the materials alone he was able to make it work at a cost that justified it. He said it was expensive to heat a pool so it was a net savings. I can barely screw in a light bulb so that's not an option for me.

Again, I'm not Mr. Solar, I don't know shit about solar. I'd like to see it viable. Why can't they put panels angled on the sides of the road? Why can't they come up with cheaper yet efficient solar panels?


We turned a tape recorder, a camcorder, a BOOMBOX RADIO, a Television, a photo camera, a Rotary Telephone, an Alarm Clock, and a bunch of other Clunky objects and now they all fit in the palm of your hand in a smart phone 20-30 years later. That's fucking awesome. If you told someone in the 80's that all these giant clunky objects could fit in the palm of your hand they would think you're crazy.

So I'm just waiting for them to find a way to take solar energy to the next level where it can be used to power cars, power homes, heat pools, power the lighting in a mall, or other such energy sucking activities. I've seen it in limited use today, but again I think it's just because they love solar, not because it financially make sense. Hopefully one day someone can find a way to make it cheaper that it becomes a no brainer to throw it on your roof and everywhere else (again, I'm think AZ, NV, CA, initially).

[angelatc]

The guy I knew who heats his pool was a do it himself kind of guy. Again, no gov't money involved. I think he did the whole thing himself, so maybe just the materials alone he was able to make it work at a cost that justified it. He said it was expensive to heat a pool so it was a net savings. I can barely screw in a light bulb so that's not an option for me.

You don't need solar panels to heat a swimming pool. There are instructions and such all over the internet, but basically all you need is a lot of garden hose and some plywood. I won't bore you with the details, but think about how hot the water is in a hose that has been laying in the sun for a while. That's what you're going for. You pump the water out of the filter through hose that's laying in the sun, and then back into the pool.

[limequat]

You don't need solar panels to heat a swimming pool. There are instructions and such all over the internet, but basically all you need is a lot of garden hose and some plywood. I won't bore you with the details, but think about how hot the water is in a hose that has been laying in the sun for a while. That's what you're going for. You pump the water out of the filter through hose that's laying in the sun, and then back into the pool.

Yep, that's a solar collector. Much cheaper, and probably more efficient for heating water. Some people do this in place of a hot water heater.

[fisharmor]

I knew a guy that heated his pool through solar panels on his roof. Florida doesn't offer shit for subsidies like California, but I've seen that pool is damn hot and it works. So I've seen solar work in small applications.
A heated pool...... in Florida?
Man, the last time I went to Florida I had been working outside nonstop in Virginia all summer, digging post holes and stuff like that in 94 degree weather, and I thought I was ready... but then the first time I went walking around outside I was seriously like WTF people actually choose to live in this shit?
So what the hell was he heating a pool for?
More to the point, what was the temperature difference?


I've also seen people who have successfully put up Solar Panels on their roof and they use it to charge their electronic cars. They call it "driving on sunshine." Again, limited application, not powering the globe or their entire home.
Well, I also own a GLOCK pistol. I hate GLOCKs, personally. I think they're ugly, too thick in the handle, and they naturally point high.
I much prefer my Steyr.
But the GLOCK is my EDC because the aftermarket support for them is unparalleled.

There are things other than up-front costs that need to be considered. When something goes wrong with those solar panels, I'd make a bet that the owner gets up on the roof and troubleshoots it. It's not like you can just open the phone book and get a licensed tech out there in hours to work on it sight unseen.

That's the reason I don't have solar. I might be able to scrape together the almost $20,000 to put in a system (I have priced them), and I might be willing to wait the nine years it's going to take for it to pay for itself.... but what if something happens to the system in those nine years? That's a long time for very expensive problems to develop. One particularly bad hailstorm, and I could be out the entire investment.

[Carson]

Somebody posted about it in 2009 but I didn't want to necro the thread.

Very cool, gotta wonder about the cost, traction and ride... But neat concept.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlTA3rnpgzU

So your cruising along minding your own business and you round a corner and there before you is a moose disco dancing to his newly discovered solar dance-floor. I'm not even going into the part about being beat about the head only for groping for my camera.

[Carson]

Does this answer the question, "Who would build the roads?"

The problem I see with this is that in order to make it economically viable, you'd have to combine too many economic sources. There are lots of industries that could benefit, but none of them enough to front the money on their own. Transportation departments, utilities, insurance companies... Each one of them might find a little value, but in order to overcome the costs, you'd have to add them all together.

Pretty much every road we have started out a game trail.

Then the Indians started using them.

Then some of my trail blazing relatives came along and discovered them.

More and more followed and the moving one rock aside the roads improved.

Kind of goes beyond a just who.



One thing I noticed about early roads by retracing a few. Some later more modern roads if you follow them they will go up and down in elevation. Up and down, up and down.

I've followed old established Indian trails that twist and turn, twist and turn through the country side but they do it so they can follow a course that follows the landscape contours so they gradually rise in elevation. I think the Indian women had a lot to do with these trails. It is the most efficient way to travel.

[Mani]

A heated pool...... in Florida?
Man, the last time I went to Florida I had been working outside nonstop in Virginia all summer, digging post holes and stuff like that in 94 degree weather, and I thought I was ready... but then the first time I went walking around outside I was seriously like WTF people actually choose to live in this shit?
So what the hell was he heating a pool for?
More to the point, what was the temperature difference?




It was offseason like February or something. Ya 6 months of the year it's not needed. The pool was hot the time I went and it was around 70ish degrees outside.... I can't remember the pool temperature it was a long time ago, maybe 12-13 years ago, but it was hot.

He had his home computerized before everyone else. Everything in his home was remote controlled, from the lights to the curtains to the shades to whatever. And a bunch of other inventions around his house I can't recall. He actually invented Caller ID phones before they came on phones. He made a lot of money on that until it just came on every phone. I always expected he'd make it big with one of his inventions.

[Carson]

It was offseason like February or something. Ya 6 months of the year it's not needed. The pool was hot the time I went and it was around 70ish degrees outside.... I can't remember the pool temperature it was a long time ago, maybe 12-13 years ago, but it was hot.

He had his home computerized before everyone else. Everything in his home was remote controlled, from the lights to the curtains to the shades to whatever. And a bunch of other inventions around his house I can't recall. He actually invented Caller ID phones before they came on phones. He made a lot of money on that until it just came on every phone. I always expected he'd make it big with one of his inventions.


I worked for a guy that kept his pool at 98.6. He also had a blowup dome over the top to help keep the heat in. It was misty like a tropical jungle in there. At the time he was making it a point to try and swim every morning.

[MaiNiaK]

Come on I want to drive my Harley down the road and feel like I'm in Tron...!!!

I guess until then I can always just drive under the influence and get the same effect.......... J/k......

[MaiNiaK]

It's no wonder the Moose is in the road.
look at the barbed wire topped fence behind him, he's being cut off from his natural habitat.....lmao...!!

[PaulConventionWV]

it would cost something like $56 Trillion, according to one article.

There is really nothing great about the idea. In fact, it is quite stupid, considering you could put the panels on the SIDe of the road, so they wouldn't constantly be getting run over, and still have the exact same effects.

It sounds genius, but isn't at all.



You could still have panels on the side of the road heating the roads with the same effect.

There simply is no reason for building roads of solar panels. they just simply say "if we covered all our raods in solar panels, then our energy crisis would be solved!"

And it is true... ...except that covering all our roads in solar panels is simply IMPOSSIBLE.

I'm intrigued. Are you suggesting that putting solar panels on the side of the road actually would be practical, as opposed to covering the roads with them?

Why, then, do you say that it isn't genius "at all" and there is "nothing great about the idea"?

It still sounds pretty good, even after reading your article because you mentioned a more practical alternative and yet you say there's nothing great about the whole idea.

[PaulConventionWV]

LOL. Heaters and LEDs are completely separate, and will use electricity from the existing electric grid. Hard to see how this will result in net gain in cold climates.

Well that pretty much kills the concept. They're trying to advertise "solar roadways", and yet all of those panels are actually hooked up to the grid? I don't think so.

[fisharmor]

Well that pretty much kills the concept. They're trying to advertise "solar roadways", and yet all of those panels are actually hooked up to the grid? I don't think so.

Well in fairness it's probably a tie-in deal. If you go shopping for rooftop solar, you can either get a battery system, or you can do the more popular option of tying into the grid.

During the day, when your panels are producing lots of power and when electricity use on the grid is highest, you're feeding excess back into the grid and getting credited for it.
During the night, when your panels are dead, you're using grid power, but during non-peak hours, and at a lower rate. The idea is that between your not using daytime grid power and getting credited for excess, you break even with what you're spending for night use, and therefore don't have a power bill. (Or have one which is negligible.)

I assume the "grid power" thing for the solar roadways is similar: they would use grid power to melt the snow/ice, and it would be more than balanced by the power generated for the other ~350 days per year that most roads don't need to be de-iced.

[CaptUSA]

I assume the "grid power" thing for the solar roadways is similar: they would use grid power to melt the snow/ice, and it would be more than balanced by the power generated for the other ~350 days per year that most roads don't need to be de-iced.
Yeah, it sounds like each panel is individually metered. (which provides communication and programming along with bi-directional energy)

But still, think of how many hours a day the sun shines. Now, minus the angle of the sun (In the north, this is huge.) Now, minus cloudy days. You're starting to get a pretty good idea of how much power these things will actually produce. Now, this power will have to support the added usage of the electronics and communications of the system itself, plus will have to power the LED lights for the lane markers.

Large scale solar plants move their panels with the angle of the sun to capture more direct rays - roads won't have that luxury.

I think if they were able to get an actual case study done, they'd be extremely disappointed with the amount of power they generate. It could still be a net positive, but it would be hard to fathom that it could possibly pay for itself.

[Danan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H901KdXgHs4

Great idea. :rolleyes:

[nobody's_hero]

Well, it would definitely solve the government's dilemma on how to track a driver's every move.

[eduardo89]

Yep, that's a solar collector. Much cheaper, and probably more efficient for heating water. Some people do this in place of a hot water heater.

Almost every house in Israel has a solar water heater for their domestic hot water needs.