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RonPaulFanInGA
05-06-2014, 07:33 PM
http://www.wral.com/news/political/page/13456541/?group=top_races

Officially projected to be the winner. Tillis will finish over the 40% threshold to avoid a run-off.

gnuschler
05-06-2014, 07:36 PM
About the same percentage that David Dewhurst had in 2012 ... how unfortunate!

Mr.NoSmile
05-06-2014, 07:36 PM
If this is an indication of anything, McConnell's declaration to crush TP type politicians will ring true. Happened in Texas with the likes of Thornberry, happened tonight with Tillis, so folks like Chris McDaniel, any of Graham's challengers in South Carolina and so on better prepare themselves. The only safe types, or at least allies, appear to be ones who are deemed favorites to win, like Mia Love. I do hope Amash can defeat Ellis, given how the State party doesn't appear to be backing him.

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 07:36 PM
Is this really necessary?

Tywysog Cymru
05-06-2014, 07:37 PM
Do you think he might run for a lesser office in the future? I really want him to be doing something.

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 07:42 PM
I don't think it's perfectly clear that Tillis will achieve over 40% yet

RonPaulFanInGA
05-06-2014, 07:43 PM
If this is an indication of anything, McConnell's declaration to crush TP type politicians will ring true. Happened in Texas with the likes of Thornberry, happened tonight with Tillis, so folks like Chris McDaniel, any of Graham's challengers in South Carolina and so on better prepare themselves. The only safe types, or at least allies, appear to be ones who are deemed favorites to win, like Mia Love. I do hope Amash can defeat Ellis, given how the State party doesn't appear to be backing him.

The Tea Party is face-planting all over the country this year. I think they're just not as influential now as they were in 2010 and 2012. GOP primary voters might simply want to win too; the Tea Party pushed a lot of duds (Miller, Angle, Mourdock, O'Donnell) that ultimately resulted in Reid having more power in the Senate now than he should.

Mr.NoSmile
05-06-2014, 07:54 PM
The Tea Party is face-planting all over the country this year. I think they're just not as influential now as they were in 2010 and 2012. GOP primary votes might simply want to win too; the Tea Party pushed a lot of duds (Miller, Angle, Mourdock, O'Donnell) that ultimately resulted in Reid having more power in the Senate now than he should.

Oh, and before I forget- Katrina Pierson, too. All good candidates to a certain niche, but not a general electorate. Not at this point, anyway.

AuH20
05-06-2014, 07:55 PM
The Tea Party is face-planting all over the country this year. I think they're just not as influential now as they were in 2010 and 2012. GOP primary votes might simply want to win too; the Tea Party pushed a lot of duds (Miller, Angle, Mourdock, O'Donnell) that ultimately resulted in Reid having more power in the Senate now than he should.

It has more to do with the establishment being prepared. They were blindsided in 2010. With their ample resources being deployed in the right areas, these ambushes become that less likely.

MichaelDavis
05-06-2014, 07:59 PM
Can we convince Greg Brannon to primary Renee Ellmers next year? I think he lives right outside of her district. She has a 65% score from FreedomWorks and is despised by the Club for Growth. She's only beating her primary opponent, who has spent almost no money, 59-41%.

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 08:02 PM
Can we convince Greg Brannon to primary Renee Ellmers next year? I think he lives right outside of her district. She has a 65% score from FreedomWorks and is despised by the Club for Growth. She's only beating her primary opponent, who has spent almost no money, 59-41%.

I'd rather him run for Senate again.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 08:02 PM
I'm voting Kay Hagan as the equal of two evils.

Brian4Liberty
05-06-2014, 08:03 PM
It has more to do with the establishment being prepared. They were blindsided in 2010. With their ample resources being deployed in the right areas, these ambushes become that less likely.

Yep.

Tywysog Cymru
05-06-2014, 08:06 PM
I'm voting Kay Hagan as the equal of two evils.

And if Hagan wins, they can't blame the Liberty movement/Tea Party for their loss.

Mr.NoSmile
05-06-2014, 08:06 PM
It has more to do with the establishment being prepared. They were blindsided in 2010. With their ample resources being deployed in the right areas, these ambushes become that less likely.

Some blame would have to go this way as well. Being well managed and having an effective campaign with a politician who can appeal to all types and not just their base is key. Clearly Tillis, in the eyes of voters in North Carolina, was able to do that.

Brian4Liberty
05-06-2014, 08:10 PM
Of course one irony is that if the 17th Amendment was repealed, as some people want, Tillis would have been selected with much less controversy or money spent.

Tywysog Cymru
05-06-2014, 08:15 PM
Of course one irony is that if the 17th Amendment was repealed, as some people want, Tillis would have been selected with much less controversy or money spent.

Rand Paul would have never even been considered. In fact, its frightening to think of the type of candidates the KY legislature would elect. Probably Jack Conway.

William Tell
05-06-2014, 08:23 PM
And if Hagan wins, they can't blame the Liberty movement/Tea Party for their loss.

They will say Tillis 'campaigned to far to the right'

you cant convince the establishment that we are better than them.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 08:25 PM
They will say Tillis 'campaigned to far to the right'

you cant convince the establishment that we are better than them.

The establishment would rather have another establishment candidate elected.

South Park Fan
05-06-2014, 08:30 PM
Of course one irony is that if the 17th Amendment was repealed, as some people want, Tillis would have been selected with much less controversy or money spent.

You're assuming repealing the 17th amendment wouldn't affect the outcome of state legislative races.

eleganz
05-06-2014, 08:31 PM
Less debating each other, more using our national network to focus on certain races like this one. Let's face it, it boils down to the fact that we were about 5% away from the next Rand Paul of North Carolina.

devil21
05-06-2014, 08:34 PM
14% of registered voters bothered to vote in NC today. Probably 5% of them won't even be alive to see the end of the Senate term they voted on. Apathy is killing this country.

DeMintConservative
05-06-2014, 08:36 PM
The Tea Party is face-planting all over the country this year. I think they're just not as influential now as they were in 2010 and 2012. GOP primary voters might simply want to win too; the Tea Party pushed a lot of duds (Miller, Angle, Mourdock, O'Donnell) that ultimately resulted in Reid having more power in the Senate now than he should.


Ben Sasse and T.W. Shannon can, and probably will, win. It doesn't matter if their opponents are prepared or not.

But GOP primary voters are increasingly wary of candidates like Brannon. It's not about the ideology, it's the quality of the candidate. Especially when facing a candidate Tillis who leads what is arguably the most conservative state legislature in the country. Most people perceived, and correctly, that Brannon would be DOA in the general election - his comments on 9/11 Trutherism, the fraud trial, the comments on democracy and socialism, etc. If they have a guy with a solid conservative record like Tillis, they won't run risks.

Tywysog Cymru
05-06-2014, 08:38 PM
Ben Sasse and T.W. Shannon can, and probably will, win. It doesn't matter if their opponents are prepared or not.

But GOP primary voters are increasingly wary of candidates like Brannon. It's not about the ideology, it's the quality of the candidate. Especially when facing a candidate Tillis who leads what is arguably the most conservative state legislature in the country. Most people perceived, and correctly, that Brannon would be DOA in the general election - his comments on 9/11 Trutherism, the fraud trial, the comments on democracy and socialism, etc. If they have a guy with a solid conservative record like Tillis, they won't run risks.

Didn't the polls show Brannon doing better than Tillis in the general?

snorlax
05-06-2014, 08:38 PM
I don't think it's perfectly clear that Tillis will achieve over 40% yet

OK Karl Rove.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 08:46 PM
Ben Sasse and T.W. Shannon can, and probably will, win. It doesn't matter if their opponents are prepared or not.

But GOP primary voters are increasingly wary of candidates like Brannon. It's not about the ideology, it's the quality of the candidate. Especially when facing a candidate Tillis who leads what is arguably the most conservative state legislature in the country. Most people perceived, and correctly, that Brannon would be DOA in the general election - his comments on 9/11 Trutherism, the fraud trial, the comments on democracy and socialism, etc. If they have a guy with a solid conservative record like Tillis, they won't run risks.

Tillis is an establishment POS and I WILL vote Hagan over him until the GOP establishment either submits or dies a much needed death. Thanks for trying, but, eventually the establishment GOP is gonna lose. Tell your friends in the GOP about this perspective. Because it is a reality.

DeMintConservative
05-06-2014, 08:55 PM
Tillis is an establishment POS and I WILL vote Hagan over him until the GOP establishment either submits or dies a much needed death. Thanks for trying, but, eventually the establishment GOP is gonna lose. Tell your friends in the GOP about this perspective. Because it is a reality.

I'm not sure why you believe that electing Democrats will make something called "the establishment GOP" loses, but good luck to you.

DeMintConservative
05-06-2014, 08:56 PM
Didn't the polls show Brannon doing better than Tillis in the general?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/can-democrats-keep-messing-with-republican-primary-voters/361825/

Voluntarist
05-06-2014, 08:57 PM
I don't think it's perfectly clear that Tillis will achieve over 40% yet

It's looking fairly certain now:
93% of precincts reporting
45% for Tillis
27% for Brannon

William Tell
05-06-2014, 08:57 PM
Ben Sasse and T.W. Shannon can, and probably will, win. It doesn't matter if their opponents are prepared or not.

But GOP primary voters are increasingly wary of candidates like Brannon. It's not about the ideology, it's the quality of the candidate. Especially when facing a candidate Tillis who leads what is arguably the most conservative state legislature in the country. Most people perceived, and correctly, that Brannon would be DOA in the general election - his comments on 9/11 Trutherism, the fraud trial, the comments on democracy and socialism, etc. If they have a guy with a solid conservative record like Tillis, they won't run risks.

Nonsense, his approval ratting was higher than Tillis in the last PPP poll. He did not have enough funding, and most candidates lose most elections.

Brian4Liberty
05-06-2014, 08:59 PM
You're assuming repealing the 17th amendment wouldn't affect the outcome of state legislative races.

I wouldn't expect anything to change.

mz10
05-06-2014, 09:06 PM
I'm not sure why you believe that electing Democrats will make something called "the establishment GOP" loses, but good luck to you.

Having a Democrat in office that you can organize against is much better than having an establishment piece of crap like Tillis who will actively fight against liberty.

Don't believe me? Look at what the unions do - if a Democrat takes anti-union votes, they will attack him/her relentlessly, and in some cases cause a Republican to be elected. Then a few years later they'll elect one of their own to that seat. Because they understand that it's about the long game and not the short game.

If you want to be a Team Red zombie, continue voting for the lesser of two evils. If you actually want to change the political environment, follow the model the left (unions, MoveOn.org) have built, and use it to fight for liberty.

AuH20
05-06-2014, 09:09 PM
I'm not sure why you believe that electing Democrats will make something called "the establishment GOP" loses, but good luck to you.

Do you have any idea who this Tillis character is? We're talking about the worst of the worst. There is no conservative bone in his body. We're talking about someone that sways to the tune K Street plays.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 09:13 PM
I think it's time for Team Paul, Reilly O'Neil and company to admit that the unstated policy to never hire local talent, is an abysmal failure.

Mr.NoSmile
05-06-2014, 09:13 PM
So the race is called, Tillis goes on to battle Hagan in November, the candidate backed by Rove, Bush, Romney and so on has won. Brannon, who fought long and hard, campaigned and made speeches, spoke the Constitution like the back of his hand, has been defeated. There can and will be a lot of pointing fingers left and right as far as who is to blame: Tillis as a person, Brannon's ground game, who people saw as the preferred candidate, rhetoric, and so on. Like earlier battles- the Texas primaries, NC Vice Chair, Clark County GOP Chair election- this is an ongoing battle for the message. There are going to be losses and chances are there will be more.

Like McConnell said, he believes the TP will be crushed, but why? Electability? Fire and brimstone, but no substance? Too eager to run for high office instead of working your way up the ladder? Fixed game? People on both sides too hardwired to voting in the same career politicians and not daring to try for a change of pace? Maybe all of the above, maybe some, maybe none. My point is that we go to sleep and live to fight another day. Brannon no doubt brought some grassroots to life in North Carolina. Will all of his backers stay involved or will they be come disillusioned by a loss that they give up the political process altogether? Ultimately it's up to them, but my hope is that people go on to fight another day and not become so disheartened by a loss that they see it as a reason to give up. In this ongoing battle against the two party system, the higher-ups would love for the status quo to be maintained, would love no shake-ups to the establishment and would love disillusioned voters who pour everything they have into races they ultimately lose to throw in the towel for good. They win that way. Guess my point is don't throw in the towel. Do and vote as you will in the future, but never give in.

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 09:17 PM
14% of registered voters bothered to vote in NC today. Probably 5% of them won't even be alive to see the end of the Senate term they voted on. Apathy is killing this country.That's ok, we can use that to our advantage.... the fewer people who vote, the easier (cheaper) it is to communicate a message to them.


Besides, historically speaking, you don't really want the masses to be active because bad things tend to result.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 09:18 PM
I'm not sure why you believe that electing Democrats will make something called "the establishment GOP" loses, but good luck to you.

Enough losses then the GOP becomes irrelevant and N.C. becomes a Blue state. For good. If that is what you want then push Tillis. Good luck with that. Because, all evil being equal, I'd rather the evil be on the party that doesn't have liberty candidates trying to change it.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 09:19 PM
Ben Sasse and T.W. Shannon can, and probably will, win. It doesn't matter if their opponents are prepared or not.

But GOP primary voters are increasingly wary of candidates like Brannon. It's not about the ideology, it's the quality of the candidate. Especially when facing a candidate Tillis who leads what is arguably the most conservative state legislature in the country. Most people perceived, and correctly, that Brannon would be DOA in the general election - his comments on 9/11 Trutherism, the fraud trial, the comments on democracy and socialism, etc. If they have a guy with a solid conservative record like Tillis, they won't run risks.

I am sorry, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Brannon consistently beat Hagan in polling, Tillis consistently lost to Hagan in polling. Brannon should have won that race. It was not Brannon who lost the race but "Team Paul" who lost that race, refusing to hire anybody in NC who knew what is going on in this State. Texas Louisiana and Kentucky are nice, but they are not North Carolina. When it is your policy to ignore the talent in any state you run, then you will lose races you should have won. Like this one. Brannon did not lose this race, Team Paul campaign staffing lost this race. If I ever run for something big, I assure you that will not hire any Team Paul people to manage my campaign. I was already leery, but watching them turn a should-have winner into someone who lost that race, I will no longer give them the benefit of the doubt.

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 09:22 PM
I think it's time for Team Paul, Reilly O'Neil and company to admit that the unstated policy to never hire local talent, is an abysmal failure.

Mike Rothfield can...and will...only do so much.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 09:28 PM
Mike Rothfield can...and will...only do so much.

You mean like bring in people from other states while people like Rachel Mills and myself are begging jobs ignored? Do you mean only do so much to try and lose? If it were up to me, I'd rather they did a lot less trying to lose and a lot more trying to win.

AuH20
05-06-2014, 09:32 PM
The lawsuit may have been enough for Tillis to grab that 5-6% with his superior resource advantage. He supposedly battered Greg with mailers and ads pointing this out.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 09:37 PM
The lawsuit may have been enough for Tillis to grab that 5-6% with his superior resource advantage. He supposedly battered Greg with mailers and ads pointing this out.

It didn't help that they adamantly refused to hire staff who knew anything about NC as a matter of policy. That wasn't Brannon's failure, that was Team Paul's failure. My policy going forward will be to support liberty and Constitutionalist candidates with everything I've got; but if they are using Team Paul for campaign staffing I will run away just as fast as I can.

Vanguard101
05-06-2014, 09:39 PM
Guess it goes to show the message must be conveyed differently. Conspiracies are not good. Rand is a rare case and hit at the right time. We need a more diverse group. We gotta play their game or we will continue to fail.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 09:40 PM
am I gonna be a Cassandra, again? I'm getting a little tired of it...

HOLLYWOOD
05-06-2014, 09:45 PM
This so-called "other" Tea Party candidate, Mark Harris, is he for real or the establishment's troll? Looking at the donation amounts, I never seen a Tea Party candidate with 85% of their donations being "Large Contributions".

Don't forget to send a BIG THANK YOU to the mega mouth media con artist named Sarah Palin. Nice job endorsing the Tea Party candidate!

http://kwout.com/cutout/s/pf/6b/qs2_bor.jpg (https://www.opensecrets.org/races/summary.php?cycle=2014&id=NCS1)

Congressional Elections: North Carolina Senate Race: 2014 Cycle | OpenSecrets (https://www.opensecrets.org/races/summary.php?cycle=2014&id=NCS1)

Badger Paul
05-06-2014, 09:46 PM
" It was not Brannon who lost the race but "Team Paul" who lost that race, refusing to hire anybody in NC who knew what is going on in this State."

Which will be easier to spin in that fashion now since Rand tried to make a last minute play for Brannon and wound up with egg on his face. And don't think his opponents won't do so. I was actually surprised Rand made his play when some of the polls showed Tillis over 40 percent

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 09:47 PM
I am sorry, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Brannon consistently beat Hagan in polling, Tillis consistently lost to Hagan in polling. Brannon should have won that race. It was not Brannon who lost the race but "Team Paul" who lost that race, refusing to hire anybody in NC who knew what is going on in this State. Texas Louisiana and Kentucky are nice, but they are not North Carolina. When it is your policy to ignore the talent in any state you run, then you will lose races you should have won. Like this one. Brannon did not lose this race, Team Paul campaign staffing lost this race. If I ever run for something big, I assure you that will not hire any Team Paul people to manage my campaign. I was already leery, but watching them turn a should-have winner into someone who lost that race, I will no longer give them the benefit of the doubt.

Not enough rep to go around. Until it is realized then I guess it's Carolina Red. Not Carolina Blue.

devil21
05-06-2014, 09:49 PM
Theres not a Tea Party bone in Harris body, just usual GOP fare. Not sure who called him that but they were lying. His job was to siphon the old evangelicals away from choosing between Greg and Tillis and putting the entire onus of attacking Tillis on Brannon alone.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 09:49 PM
I love Ron Paul to death, and I love Greg Brannon to death, but after what I saw in NC, I am forced to conclude that the Team Paul campaign organization is little more than a money-sponge with policies that are directly opposed to victory. If anybody here ever decides to run for office, please avoid former Paul staff like the bubonic plague.

RonPaulMall
05-06-2014, 09:49 PM
The lawsuit may have been enough for Tillis to grab that 5-6% with his superior resource advantage. He supposedly battered Greg with mailers and ads pointing this out.

But the lawsuit was out of his control. I think whenever you lose, the most constructive thing you can do is analyze the things within your control that you could have done better. In some cases, even if you run a perfect campaign you'll still lose if the deck is stacked to hard against you, but in this particular race where we lost by only 5 points or so, the mistakes the campaign itself made were enough to make the difference. Gunny has raised some important critiques. And I'll throw out another.I don't live in NC, but I am close with three people who are and none of them voted for Brannon. These are the types of people that throw mailers straight in the trash and generally ignore political ads and websites, and when I asked them why they didn't vote Brannon all three cited the debates as what swayed them.
Brannon didn't seem to have the ability to switch between tailoring his message to the liberty crowd and tailoring it to the general audience crowd, and you need to be able to do that in things like debates where the bulk of your audience is not hard core liberty types.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 09:49 PM
Guess it goes to show the message must be conveyed differently. Conspiracies are not good. Rand is a rare case and hit at the right time. We need a more diverse group. We gotta play their game or we will continue to fail.

Conspiracies charges are bullshit. Memed here by a Paul staffer. Not one person I spoke to even mentioned it. Period.

William Tell
05-06-2014, 09:50 PM
Guess it goes to show the message must be conveyed differently. Conspiracies are not good. Rand is a rare case and hit at the right time. We need a more diverse group. We gotta play their game or we will continue to fail.

We cannot seem to get minorities without compromising principles.

devil21
05-06-2014, 09:51 PM
I love Ron Paul to death, and I love Greg Brannon to death, but after what I saw in NC, I am forced to conclude that the Team Paul campaign organization is little more than a money-sponge with policies that are directly opposed to victory. If anybody here ever decides to run for office, please avoid former Paul staff like the bubonic plague.

Im starting to think you're right. Just another group that has become controlled opposition by becoming entrenched establishment in their own way.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 09:53 PM
" It was not Brannon who lost the race but "Team Paul" who lost that race, refusing to hire anybody in NC who knew what is going on in this State."

Which will be easier to spin in that fashion now since Rand tried to make a last minute play for Brannon and wound up with egg on his face. And don't think his opponents won't do so. I was actually surprised Rand made his play when some of the polls showed Tillis over 40 percent


I'm not talking about Rand Paul. I am talking about Rothbard et al. I communicated with Reilly, who is from Louisiana. In Team Paul's estimation, he is as local as they want. You don't win NC by campaigning for LA. Their policy of never hiring locals for staffing under any circumstance is fail fail fail. After begging a job for 8 months, I finally told Reilly in August or September that they could not win NC without me. That was not ego speaking, that was cold analysis. Greg told me four times he wanted to hire me, but Reilly had veto power being campaign manager. Team Paul vetoed Brannon's victory, IMHO.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 09:54 PM
We cannot seem to get minorities without compromising principles.

I had no problem winning minorities without compromising principles. Perhaps you are doing it wrong?

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 09:55 PM
Theres not a Tea Party bone in Harris body, just usual GOP fare. Not sure who called him that but they were lying. His job was to siphon the old evangelicals away from choosing between Greg and Tillis and putting the entire onus of attacking Tillis on Brannon alone.

Doesn't matter. Whether Harris or Brannon the siphon causes a run-off. The establishment pumped the dough-re-me and got it's establishment mouthpieces to get just enough to squeek by. Or they own the whole voting process and made it just close enough not to cause controversy. And the NATIONAL establishment OWNS the voting process. So, unless there is overwhelmng support, so much so that "public" opinion polls and "voting" tallies might be called into question then the process rolls on.

devil21
05-06-2014, 09:58 PM
Doesn't matter. Whether Harris or Brannon the siphon causes a run-off. The establishment pumped the dough-re-me and got it's establishment mouthpieces to get just enough to squeek by. Or they own the whole voting process and made it just close enough not to cause controversy. And the NATIONAL establishment OWNS the voting process. So, unless there is overwhelmng support, so much so that "public" opinion polls and "voting" tallies might be called into question then the process rolls on.

I constantly run into my own cognitive dissonance when I fully accept that most everything in politics and media is smoke and mirrors (aka controlled and almost entirely fake) but still continue to think that the actual voting process matters. Stalin's famous old quote about counting votes never goes away.

William Tell
05-06-2014, 09:58 PM
I had no problem winning minorities without compromising principles. Perhaps you are doing it wrong?

I was thinking about the talk about amnesty, obviously you can win some of all groups with a clear message.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 09:59 PM
I'm not talking about Rand Paul. I am talking about Rothbard et al. I communicated with Reilly, who is from Louisiana. In Team Paul's estimation, he is as local as they want. You don't win NC by campaigning for LA. Their policy of never hiring locals for staffing under any circumstance is fail fail fail. After begging a job for 8 months, I finally told Reilly in August or September that they could not win NC without me. That was not ego speaking, that was cold analysis. Greg told me four times he wanted to hire me, but Reilly had veto power being campaign manager. Team Paul vetoed Brannon's victory, IMHO.

Holy mother of shit! :eek: Honestly? WTF were these guys thinking? I'm just... aside from cussing I've got nothing to say at this time.

DeMintConservative
05-06-2014, 10:01 PM
Todd Akin and Sharron Angle were also polling well during the primary.

The Democrats have spent millions of dollars hammering Tillis. They haven't attacked Brannon. Had Brannon won the elections, the tv ads with his fraud conviction and 9/11 Trutherism would go up and the polls would quickly adjust. Not to mention his other gaffes.

So the general election polling now is completely immaterial.

And Tillis led the most conservative state legislature in the country. Calling him "the worst of the worst" or "Obama's favourite Republican" is too hyperbolic to be effective - it's the kind of propaganda that makes sense if you want to consolidate a minority but that is counterproductive if you actually want to win a statewide primary. Too unhinged and deranged without being reality based.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:01 PM
Holy mother of shit! :eek: Honestly? WTF were these guys thinking? I'm just... aside from cussing I've got nothing to say at this time.


I don't care what these guys were thinking. It's done, time to move forward. Just don't hire them. Ever.

Imperial
05-06-2014, 10:02 PM
A few notes.

1) There is a very simple explanation for why Brannon lost: he got majorly outspent. You don't have to perfectly match spending with your opponent, but it has to be enough to get your message out there. We saw the polls start closing when Brannon actually raised some money and got on the air, but it was too little, too late. Unlike Cruz in TX, Brannon didn't have someone like Peter Thiel, I mean the Club for Growth, pouring tons of money on his behalf. And unlike Paul, he didn't have the right last name.

2) The campaign understandably focused on winning the primary. But we would have had ideological tunnel vision if we didn't see major concerns with Brannon's electability in a general election. The lawsuit may not have been in his control, but overturning a jury decision would have been tough and the whole affair would have played horribly in a DSCC campaign ad. Similarly, we know from Medina in TX-GOV that even flirting with 9/11 truth (without saying "I think it was an inside job"), can be campaign-killing.

So how could it be that he polled slightly better than Tillis? The state House record under Tillis didn't poll so well, and voters knew him (at least some of them) as the leader of that chamber. In contrast, Brannon is a blank slate- nobody knew who he was.

This is kind of similar to Todd Akin in 2012. Before all of his comments, he seemed like a random backbencher congressman, if one with a socially conservative streak. It was only later it became clear how ready his foot was to go in his mouth. After a wave of ads, Brannon would have been branded as the next Todd Akin in a state winnable for Democrats (even if wrongly).

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:04 PM
Todd Akin and Sharron Angle were also polling well during the primary.

The Democrats have spent millions of dollars hammering Tillis. They haven't attacked Brannon. Had Brannon won the elections, the tv ads with his fraud conviction and 9/11 Trutherism would go up and the polls would quickly adjust. Not to mention his other gaffes.

So the general election polling now is completely immaterial.

And Tillis led the most conservative state legislature in the country. Calling him "the worst of the worst" or "Obama's favourite Republican" is too hyperbolic to be effective - it's the kind of propaganda that makes sense if you want to consolidate a minority but that is counterproductive if you actually want to win a statewide primary. Too unhinged and deranged without being reality based.

LOL I served with Tillis in the NC State House. He is a sociopath, a compulsive liar, and every ounce of his 'conservatism' is fake. He is a liberal progressive. Everything conservative we did in this State we forced on Tillis against his will. NC Leg is conservative IN SPITE of Tillis, and anybody who knows what going on in NC, knows that.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 10:05 PM
But the lawsuit was out of his control. I think whenever you lose, the most constructive thing you can do is analyze the things within your control that you could have done better. In some cases, even if you run a perfect campaign you'll still lose if the deck is stacked to hard against you, but in this particular race where we lost by only 5 points or so, the mistakes the campaign itself made were enough to make the difference. Gunny has raised some important critiques. And I'll throw out another.I don't live in NC, but I am close with three people who are and none of them voted for Brannon. These are the types of people that throw mailers straight in the trash and generally ignore political ads and websites, and when I asked them why they didn't vote Brannon all three cited the debates as what swayed them.
Brannon didn't seem to have the ability to switch between tailoring his message to the liberty crowd and tailoring it to the general audience crowd, and you need to be able to do that in things like debates where the bulk of your audience is not hard core liberty types.

Who did they vote for? Just wondering. And why? If you don't know please do a follow up.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:10 PM
I was thinking about the talk about amnesty, obviously you can win some of all groups with a clear message.
I did not win 10% of minorities. I won 50% of minorities.

William Tell
05-06-2014, 10:11 PM
I'm not talking about Rand Paul. I am talking about Rothbard et al. I communicated with Reilly, who is from Louisiana. In Team Paul's estimation, he is as local as they want. You don't win NC by campaigning for LA. Their policy of never hiring locals for staffing under any circumstance is fail fail fail. After begging a job for 8 months, I finally told Reilly in August or September that they could not win NC without me. That was not ego speaking, that was cold analysis. Greg told me four times he wanted to hire me, but Reilly had veto power being campaign manager. Team Paul vetoed Brannon's victory, IMHO.

Wow.

Working Poor
05-06-2014, 10:11 PM
And if Hagan wins, they can't blame the Liberty movement/Tea Party for their loss.
They don't care if they win or loose as long as we loose.

Brian4Liberty
05-06-2014, 10:12 PM
These are the types of people that throw mailers straight in the trash and generally ignore political ads and websites, and when I asked them why they didn't vote Brannon all three cited the debates as what swayed them.

Brannon didn't seem to have the ability to switch between tailoring his message to the liberty crowd and tailoring it to the general audience crowd, and you need to be able to do that in things like debates where the bulk of your audience is not hard core liberty types.

Yeah, the debates weren't the best performances for Greg. Like Ron, he had a little trouble switching gears and slowing down for the average voter.

As far as Tillis goes, he was as smooth and sleazy as a used car salesman. In the one debate I saw, I almost knew it was over. On the very first question they asked, a question not remotely related to foreign policy, Tillis managed to mention Israel in his response. Obviously, Tillis was catering to the neoconservatives and Israel-firsters, in addition to the more publicized connections to the corporatist Chamber of Commerce, Karl Rove and establishment RINOs.

William Tell
05-06-2014, 10:15 PM
I did not win 10% of minorities. I won 50% of minorities.

Understood, but I tend to think it is easier in person than running a statewide campaign. Selling a campaign through direct mail, etc is always a challenge, to any audience. I'm a little off my game tonight anyway.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 10:16 PM
Todd Akin and Sharron Angle were also polling well during the primary.

The Democrats have spent millions of dollars hammering Tillis. They haven't attacked Brannon. Had Brannon won the elections, the tv ads with his fraud conviction and 9/11 Trutherism would go up and the polls would quickly adjust. Not to mention his other gaffes.

So the general election polling now is completely immaterial.

And Tillis led the most conservative state legislature in the country. Calling him "the worst of the worst" or "Obama's favourite Republican" is too hyperbolic to be effective - it's the kind of propaganda that makes sense if you want to consolidate a minority but that is counterproductive if you actually want to win a statewide primary. Too unhinged and deranged without being reality based.

The GOP will become irrelevant in N.C. with that attitude. If you are a democrat operative then the seeds you sow are true. They will sprout roots if the GOP does not take heed of the liberty movement. If you are a GOP loyalist then it is YOU that better take heed. Tillis WILL lose. As far as I, and those that vote with me, are concerned. The ESTABLISHMENT is giddy in its victory tonight. And by that I mean the ESTABLISHMENT of the left AND the right.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:21 PM
The GOP will become irrelevant in N.C. with that attitude. If you are a democrat operative then the seeds you sow are true. They will sprout roots if the GOP does not take heed of the liberty movement. If you are a GOP loyalist then it is YOU that better take heed. Tillis WILL lose. As far as I, and those that vote with me, are concerned. The ESTABLISHMENT is giddy in its victory tonight. And by that I mean the ESTABLISHMENT of the left AND the right.

Out of ammo for the moment. But NC is unique. It is not like anywhere else. You can not win NC without having NC people with a major role in the campaign. It is just not possible. The local lay of the land is highly unusual as compared to other states. Insisting that core staff must come from out of state is probably the best way to guarantee defeat in NC. I told Reilly that last year. He either didn't believe me or didn't care.

Brian4Liberty
05-06-2014, 10:23 PM
I'm not talking about Rand Paul. I am talking about Rothbard et al. I communicated with Reilly, who is from Louisiana. In Team Paul's estimation, he is as local as they want. You don't win NC by campaigning for LA. Their policy of never hiring locals for staffing under any circumstance is fail fail fail. After begging a job for 8 months, I finally told Reilly in August or September that they could not win NC without me. That was not ego speaking, that was cold analysis. Greg told me four times he wanted to hire me, but Reilly had veto power being campaign manager. Team Paul vetoed Brannon's victory, IMHO.

Do you mean that you could have spent more time (full time) if you were a paid staff member? (As opposed to spending time making a living?) ;)

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:27 PM
This goes for Rand Paul too. Rand Paul, can you hear me? Are you listening? NC is an Early State in 2016. You will NOT win this State if you follow your father's model of refusing to staff with local activists who know the lay of the land. If you listen to Rothbard, and insist that core staff must come from out of State, you will lose NC. I am telling you this because I want you to win.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:28 PM
Do you mean that you could have spent more time (full time) if you were a paid staff member? (As opposed to spending time making a living?) ;)

I was driving to New Jersey and Louisiana and Wilmington and such every week just to survive. There is only so much of me to go around. And Brannon won my precinct, where I WAS able to do activism, overwhelmingly. This should be a clue-by-four but when I talked to Reilly tonight, he doubled-down. That's when I stopped giving him third and fourth and fifth chances.

puppetmaster
05-06-2014, 10:30 PM
14% of registered voters bothered to vote in NC today. Probably 5% of them won't even be alive to see the end of the Senate term they voted on. Apathy is killing this country.

Wow low turnout

Feeding the Abscess
05-06-2014, 10:31 PM
I am sorry, but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Brannon consistently beat Hagan in polling, Tillis consistently lost to Hagan in polling. Brannon should have won that race. It was not Brannon who lost the race but "Team Paul" who lost that race, refusing to hire anybody in NC who knew what is going on in this State. Texas Louisiana and Kentucky are nice, but they are not North Carolina. When it is your policy to ignore the talent in any state you run, then you will lose races you should have won. Like this one. Brannon did not lose this race, Team Paul campaign staffing lost this race. If I ever run for something big, I assure you that will not hire any Team Paul people to manage my campaign. I was already leery, but watching them turn a should-have winner into someone who lost that race, I will no longer give them the benefit of the doubt.

That's kind of on Brannon for not hiring locals, isn't it?

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 10:31 PM
You mean like bring in people from other states while people like Rachel Mills and myself are begging jobs ignored? Do you mean only do so much to try and lose? If it were up to me, I'd rather they did a lot less trying to lose and a lot more trying to win.

No, I agree with you.

Heads should have rolled after Rothfield and Co. copied from Rand's site.

His last minute stuff from the NAGR was nice, but that's about it. He never even utilized the NPLA when he had the opportunity to.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:34 PM
That's kind of on Brannon for not hiring locals, isn't it?

Except when you have contract clauses like if this guy is a campaign manager he controls hiring. Think about it, Team Paul refuses to hire local talent in every campaign they run. Did ANYBODY know the Ron Paul PCC staff for their own States in 2008 or 2012? When the same policies follow the same people around everywhere they go, it is reasonable to conclude that those people are the ones promulgating those policies.

ETA - consider this, in States that still had an active 2008 Ron Paul base, come 2012, NOBODY knew the people Ron Paul hired for 2012 PCC in their State. Seriously, WTF is that?

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 10:34 PM
I am forced to conclude that the Team Paul campaign organization is little more than a money-sponge with policies that are directly opposed to victory. Can you elaborate? :confused:

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 10:36 PM
Their policy of never hiring locals for staffing under any circumstance is fail fail fail. That's actually not true. Winning elections is both an art and a science, but more science than art because it ultimately comes down to numbers. This is why it's called "political science".

Granted yes it is important to have local knowledge, and to use locals to understand the political system, but having locals on staff is not necessary for victory. And having locals on staff can be a liability too.

Regardless of where one is, human nature is the same, and campaigning 101 works the same in Alaska as it does in Florida.

I am however interested in knowing what the failures of the campaign were in hopes to be able to learn from them.

MichaelDavis
05-06-2014, 10:39 PM
I'd rather him run for Senate again.

I don't think that's very realistic. Brannon couldn't win a primary against a C-list candidate like Thom Tillis, let alone a sitting United States Senator. If Brannon is going to primary anyone, it should be NC-02 congresswoman Renee Ellmers.

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 10:39 PM
Here is what I am talking about:


Rothfeld went on, rebutting his critics, explaining the costs of snail mail and Internet ads. “When you spam people to the sum of 50 or 60 or 70 million pieces of spam a month, as my shop does—those of you who get Rand Paul spa—” Rothfeld smiled at his intentional verbal gaffe—“uh, email, or Campaign for Liberty or National Association for Gun Rights or National Right to Work or National Pro-Life Alliance, that is all my spa—uh, email!”

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/03/rand_paul_mike_rothfeld_and_direct_mail_inside_pau l_inc_s_fundraising_machine.html

One guy, Rothfeld, is behind all of these groups. It is no secret he has spread himself too thin. None of these organizations is being utilized to it's full potential.

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 10:40 PM
I don't think that's very realistic. Brannon couldn't win a primary against a C-list candidate like Thom Tillis, let alone a sitting United States Senator. If Brannon is going to primary anyone, it should be NC-02 congresswoman Renee Ellmers.

I'm hearing Burr won't run again. That would be his shot.

I will say that from following all of this NC politics, I am interested in seeing Vince Coakely run for something winnable.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:43 PM
That's actually not true. Winning elections is both an art and a science, but more science than art because it ultimately comes down to numbers. This is why it's called "political science".

Granted yes it is important to have local knowledge, and to use locals to understand the political system, but having locals on staff is not necessary for victory.

It. Is. In. North. Carolina. Ignore me at your own peril.


And having locals on staff can be a liability too.

Thus sayeth the great Rothfeld.


Regardless of where one is, human nature is the same, and campaigning 101 works the same in Alaska as it does in Florida.

If you truly believe that, then you do not know politics very well.


I am however interested in knowing what the failures of the campaign were in hopes to be able to learn from them.

To begin with, they adamantly refused to hire local talent in a State that cannot be won without local talent.

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 10:45 PM
Gunny, how in the world did O'Neil have veto power over Brannon? He is the boss for crying out loud.

Lord Xar
05-06-2014, 10:45 PM
This goes for Rand Paul too. Rand Paul, can you hear me? Are you listening? NC is an Early State in 2016. You will NOT win this State if you follow your father's model of refusing to staff with local activists who know the lay of the land. If you listen to Rothbard, and insist that core staff must come from out of State, you will lose NC. I am telling you this because I want you to win.

I don't think he'll see this here :-)

Though, he would be wise to take a listen to you.... get the message to him, I'm sure you know a way!

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 10:45 PM
Here is the real scoop:




American Crossroads spent $1.6 million on behalf of Tillis, significantly more than the resources of Republican challengers Greg Brannon and Mark Harris. They aired three ads, which each touted Tillis's conservative record and rebutted Democratic attacks against him.

The goal was simple: Increase Tillis's low name identification, knowing his opponents wouldn't have the resources to fight back. In January, the group commissioned a survey from veteran GOP pollster Jan van Lohuizen showing Tillis only tallying 16 percent in the crowded field, with 60 percent of Republican voters unsure of their choice. Just over one-quarter of North Carolina GOP voters were familiar with Tillis. But in the middle of their advertising blitz in late April, another poll commissioned by Crossroads and conducted by van Lohuizen found Tillis's name identification had shot up to 66 percent, with him tallying 38 percent of the primary vote. That same poll showed only about one-third of voters familiar with Brannon and Harris.




Their strategy was twofold: Spend early to avoid a financially costly runoff that could wound Tillis for the general election and begin to make the case against embattled Democratic Sen. Kay Hagan. It worked, with Tillis winning well over 40 percent across the board, in most North Carolina counties.


Meanwhile, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which spent over $1 million in ads backing Tillis, also saw two other endorsed candidates prevail in contested primariesóRep. David Joyce in Ohio and North Carolina congressional candidate David Rouzer.



SOURCE: http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/republican-establishment-sweeps-tea-party-in-first-round-of-primaries-20140506

devil21
05-06-2014, 10:47 PM
Here is what I am talking about:



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/03/rand_paul_mike_rothfeld_and_direct_mail_inside_pau l_inc_s_fundraising_machine.html

One guy, Rothfeld, is behind all of these groups. It is no secret he has spread himself too thin. None of these organizations is being utilized to it's full potential.

Ahhh....now it's starting to make more sense. I certainly wouldn't hire one of them if I was serious about winning.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:47 PM
Gunny, how in the world did O'Neil have veto power over Brannon? He is the boss for crying out loud.

I was told by someone whom I will not name, that the bargain with Rothfeld was that if Brannon wanted his help they will hire who the hell they want. Someone who I will not name, was definitely in a position to know.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 10:48 PM
That's actually not true. Winning elections is both an art and a science, but more science than art because it ultimately comes down to numbers. This is why it's called "political science".

Granted yes it is important to have local knowledge, and to use locals to understand the political system, but having locals on staff is not necessary for victory. And having locals on staff can be a liability too.

Regardless of where one is, human nature is the same, and campaigning 101 works the same in Alaska as it does in Florida.

I am however interested in knowing what the failures of the campaign were in hopes to be able to learn from them.

Glad poli-sci 101 worked so well for Brannon. Might want to work on your Masters, Collins. Because, my guess is you haven't even taken the time to get you Bachelors yet. Amirite?

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 10:49 PM
Thus sayeth the great Rothfeld.Locals have baggage, and have friends/family and are much more easily distracted than people from out of state. The policy makes sense.




If you truly believe that, then you do not know politics very well.Do you know what the Lincoln 4 Step is?




To begin with, they adamantly refused to hire local talent in a State that cannot be won without local talent.Your premise is a fallacy.

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 10:50 PM
I was told by someone whom I will not name, that the bargain with Rothfeld was that if Brannon wanted his help they will hire who the hell they want. Nothing wrong with that... hiring trusted and experienced people is important.

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 10:51 PM
Glad poli-sci 101 worked so well for Brannon. And that's what I am so curious about...what was the failure there?


And yes I have a Bachelors degree

RandallFan
05-06-2014, 10:51 PM
I don't think that's very realistic. Brannon couldn't win a primary against a C-list candidate like Thom Tillis, let alone a sitting United States Senator. If Brannon is going to primary anyone, it should be NC-02 congresswoman Renee Ellmers.

We need to see the outcome of his jury verdict. I think Tillis would have spent 10 million attacking him in a runoff on the jury verdict. I was hoping for Tillis below 50 or into a runoff. If he wins the appeal or gets it thrown out he can work on Burr's seat.

The jury verdict was bad timing but it didn't seem to be a major issue.

I hope Hagan pretends to be a Blue Dog Democrat the way Tillis pretends to be conservative.

Hagan could still have beaten Tillis or Brannon in November ending Brannon's career if that had happened. They would have blamed the jury verdict.

Pat McCrory backed Tillis in the final weeks. Is Pat McCrory is more popular than Jeb or Huckabee or Rand in the state amongst Republicans?

Matt Collins
05-06-2014, 10:51 PM
Gunny, how in the world did O'Neil have veto power over Brannon? He is the boss for crying out loud.Candidates are not the boss of their own campaign, or at least they shouldnt be. Candidates have 2 jobs: raising money and meeting voters. If they do anything else then they are causing harm.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 10:52 PM
"I want to go to Washington and clean up Kay Hagan's mess," Tillis told his enthusiastic supporters in Charlotte.

Nope, sorry. I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure that Hagan keeps making a mess. The messier it gets the closer to reason we may get.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 10:53 PM
Candidates are not the boss of their own campaign, or at least they shouldnt be. Candidates have 2 jobs: raising money and meeting voters. If they do anything else then they are causing harm.

Translate: "Elected officials have two jobs: raising money and meeting voters."

No thanks. Take your swill elsewhere besides RPF.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 10:54 PM
And that's what I am so curious about...what was the failure there?


And yes I have a Bachelors degree

In poli-sci? Proof please.

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 10:54 PM
I was told by someone whom I will not name, that the bargain with Rothfeld was that if Brannon wanted his help they will hire who the hell they want. Someone who I will not name, was definitely in a position to know.

Makes sense. And adding to your money making theory:

"Rothfeld, founder of Virginia-based Saber Communications was delivering his pitch at the annual conference. In Paul-world, Rothfeld is an important figure; of the $40.6 million raised for Ron Paul’s 2012 presidential campaign, nearly $7.7 million went to Saber. "

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:56 PM
Locals have baggage, and have friends/family and are much more easily distracted than people from out of state. The policy makes sense.

Makes perfect sense. If you want to lose.


Do you know what the Lincoln 4 Step is?

Did you know that Lincoln won by convention vote and not the primary elections?


Your premise is a fallacy.

You are a fallacy. Premises can not be fallacious, only arguments can be fallacious. As much as you have a fetish for quoting logical fallacies, one would have thought you at least had taken Logic 101. But then the totally absurd way you use the fallacy fallacy, should have told me that you have not.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:57 PM
And that's what I am so curious about...what was the failure there?


And yes I have a Bachelors degree

Clearly you should demand a refund.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 10:59 PM
Clearly you should demand a refund.

Or work towards a Master's. Still awaiting proof that the Bachelors was in Poli-Sci. I'm thinking sound recording technology.

devil21
05-06-2014, 10:59 PM
Im gonna go ahead and add Mr. Rothfeld and his company to my list of people that Rand must NOT hire for a 2016 run. Mr. Rothfeld appears very successful at making large amounts of money off the Liberty movement while delivering very little electoral results. Einstein's definition of insanity, anyone?

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 10:59 PM
Or work towards a Master's. Still awaiting proof that the Bachelors was in Poli-Sci. I'm thinking sound recording.

Do they let you take Logic 101 as a part of a Master's program?

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 11:01 PM
Do they let you take Logic 101 as a part of a Master's program?

A sound recording technology degree is usually from a liberal arts college. So I'm thinking Logic 101 wasn't on the curriculum. :p

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 11:01 PM
Nothing wrong with that... hiring trusted and experienced people is important.

Well, as nice as Nick Dyer seemed, he repeatedly acknowledged but did not act upon my offers to basically boost Brannon social media through the roof using my 1 million like page.

I kept telling him to make some issue specific graphics. He said they would come. They never did, unfortunately. I guess he doesn't understand Facebook algorithms, as sharing links is pointless.

I also got on him repeatedly about getting the RLC endorsement sorted out. I finally figured out the state chairman was stonewalling it out of a personal vendetta against the national group, but they could have bypassed him. It turns out the RLC NEVER received their survey, despite my bugging. Sure, it isn't the biggest endorsement, but I would expect the people at the top of the campaign to at least put on a to-do list things that they promised to do. Things that would help the campaign.

Brian4Liberty
05-06-2014, 11:02 PM
Here is what I am talking about:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/03/rand_paul_mike_rothfeld_and_direct_mail_inside_pau l_inc_s_fundraising_machine.html

One guy, Rothfeld, is behind all of these groups. It is no secret he has spread himself too thin. None of these organizations is being utilized to it's full potential.

Charlatan. While there is value in having organized supporter and donor info, what Rothfeld has taken credit for in the Ron Paul movement is not of his making. People wanted to donate because of Ron Paul, they did not need all of the e-mails and snail mails to prompt them. Rothfeld has taken credit for something that was already happening.


Ahhh....now it's starting to make more sense. I certainly wouldn't hire one of them if I was serious about winning.

Agree. Squeezing existing donors to the limit should be reserved for corrupt organizations like the NRA.

TaftFan
05-06-2014, 11:08 PM
Im gonna go ahead and add Mr. Rothfeld and his company to my list of people that Rand must NOT hire for a 2016 run. Mr. Rothfeld appears very successful at making large amounts of money off the Liberty movement while delivering very little electoral results. Einstein's definition of insanity, anyone?

The crazy thing is, he IS team Paul. And I have no problem with him being a part of it, but team Paul MUST branch out.

The problem is, Rothfeld's cartel of organizations is important to have. The lists of people are invaluable. And competition against them is a conflict of interest. I bet he does play hardball, like Gunny suggested.

I'm not a Weigel fan, but that article was an eye-opener. As it points out, Rand's top advisor Doug Stafford is a Rothfeld guy.

Brian4Liberty
05-06-2014, 11:11 PM
Here is what I am talking about:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/03/rand_paul_mike_rothfeld_and_direct_mail_inside_pau l_inc_s_fundraising_machine.html

One guy, Rothfeld, is behind all of these groups. It is no secret he has spread himself too thin. None of these organizations is being utilized to it's full potential.


Ron Paul’s 2008 campaign marked a turning point in the history of direct mail. He started, as he had started his 1988 Libertarian presidential campaign, as a fringe candidate with a mailing list. In the summer of 2007, especially after an explosive debate confrontation with Rudy Giuliani, Paul became the master of Internet fundraising. A December 2007 “moneybomb” for Paul raised $6 million, all from small donors logging onto his campaign site.

Notice how even the article tries to connect grassroots moneybombs and donor interest from debates with direct mail. Wrong! Not related.

The direct mail was just about attempting to squeeze existing donors. And as a grassroots donor, I never responded to direct mails or e-mails. It was all grassroots moneybombs.

devil21
05-06-2014, 11:12 PM
The crazy thing is, he IS team Paul. And I have no problem with him being a part of it, but team Paul MUST branch out.

The problem is, Rothfeld's cartel of organizations is important to have. The lists of people are invaluable. And competition against them is a conflict of interest. I bet he does play hardball, like Gunny suggested.

I'm not a Weigel fan, but that article was an eye-opener. As it points out, Rand's top advisor Doug Stafford is a Rothfeld guy.

Must....bite.....tongue......

Im going out for a drink before I get myself banned. Good night all.

Brian4Liberty
05-06-2014, 11:14 PM
Here is the real scoop:

SOURCE: http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/republican-establishment-sweeps-tea-party-in-first-round-of-primaries-20140506

I certainly agree that it was the outside money that made Tillis a winner.

Talk about other campaign details are certainly valid complaints, but were not directly or primarily related to the loss, IMHO.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 11:17 PM
Notice how even the article tries to connect grassroots moneybombs and donor interest from debates with direct mail. Wrong! Not related.

The direct mail was just about attempting to squeeze existing donors. And as a grassroots donor, I never responded to direct mails or e-mails. It was all grassroots moneybombs.

I have also never in my life given due to direct mail or email. I have however, given for grassroots moneybombs and end of quarter reports.

jurgs01
05-06-2014, 11:19 PM
I am disappointed that Brannon lost, but I like to look at the positives in North Carolina:

Walter Jones and Vince Coakley won their primaries for Congress. Mark Walker looks headed to a runoff.
Mattie Lawson, Larry Pittman, and Mike Clampitt won their State House races.
Paul Wright, Johnathan Jordan, Michael Speciale, Molotov Mitchell, and Richard Rivette all were uncontested and get to move on.
No primary losses of liberty candidates or fellow travelers in NC, and a lot of chances for pickups. Homeruns are great, but singles and sacrifice bunts win games. Keep fighting for liberty!

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 11:19 PM
The crazy thing is, he IS team Paul. And I have no problem with him being a part of it, but team Paul MUST branch out.

The problem is, Rothfeld's cartel of organizations is important to have. The lists of people are invaluable. And competition against them is a conflict of interest. I bet he does play hardball, like Gunny suggested.

I'm not a Weigel fan, but that article was an eye-opener. As it points out, Rand's top advisor Doug Stafford is a Rothfeld guy.

Well, when someone from Mississippi is chosen to chair Rand Paul NC PCC, you can check the "loss" box by NC the day that decision is made. Gar-own-tee.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 11:20 PM
Well, when someone from Mississippi is chosen to chair Rand Paul NC PCC, you can check the "loss" box by NC the day that decision is made. Gar-own-tee.

Yup.

devil21
05-06-2014, 11:24 PM
According to fec.gov, Rothfeld has donated a grand total of $1250 to candidates (Paul Broun and Thomas Brinkman), while collecting millions from the Liberty movement.

I really am done now.

phill4paul
05-06-2014, 11:26 PM
According to fec.gov, Rothfeld has donated a grand total of $1250 to candidates (Paul Broun and Thomas Brinkman), while collecting millions from the Liberty movement.

I really am done now.

Big spender.

Vote Kay Hagan! How can I get Kay Hagan under the Liberty Candidate Evaluation forum?

Now go get that well deserved drink!

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 11:34 PM
Big spender.

Vote Kay Hagan! How can I get Kay Hagan under the Liberty Candidate Evaluation forum?

Now go get that well deserved drink!

Way ahead of you...

http://glenbradley.net/images/share/ec1.jpg

:p

William Tell
05-06-2014, 11:44 PM
Way ahead of you...

http://glenbradley.net/images/share/ec1.jpg

:p

Is there a bright side? I would hope that Brannon's volunteer network would be a big help for future NC liberty? The Medina and Ron Paul campaigns helped bigtime here, in that regard. I mean the grassroots, not the paid staffers. I Met a lot of good people through that.

GunnyFreedom
05-06-2014, 11:55 PM
Is there a bright side? I would hope that Brannon's volunteer network would be a big help for future NC liberty? The Medina and Ron Paul campaigns helped bigtime here, in that regard.

Unfortunately, the way this campaign was run, there was basically no interface with NC Liberty. We may have picked up a few more souls who saw the light due to Brannon, but tomorrow the NC Liberty movement will be in essentially the same place it was before Brannon ran. And that is not on Brannon - it is on his campaign manager. The campaign was simply not run with us in mind, and we gained zero forward momentum from it save for a small handful of new allies.

You will notice that campaigns like Medina leave a coherent and energized grassroots in their wake, while Rothfeld campaigns are more likely to leave the liberty grassroots in smoking ruins. That should say a lot right there.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 12:00 AM
Gunny, how in the world did O'Neil have veto power over Brannon? He is the boss for crying out loud.


I was told by someone whom I will not name, that the bargain with Rothfeld was that if Brannon wanted his help they will hire who the hell they want. Someone who I will not name, was definitely in a position to know.


Nothing wrong with that... hiring trusted and experienced people is important.


Candidates are not the boss of their own campaign, or at least they shouldnt be. Candidates have 2 jobs: raising money and meeting voters. If they do anything else then they are causing harm.

Taft, does this answer your question about how Rothfeld operates?

William Tell
05-07-2014, 12:02 AM
Unfortunately, the way this campaign was run, there was basically no interface with NC Liberty. We may have picked up a few more souls who saw the light due to Brannon, but tomorrow the NC Liberty movement will be in essentially the same place it was before Brannon ran. And that is not on Brannon - it is on his campaign manager. The campaign was simply not run with us in mind, and we gained zero forward momentum from it save for a small handful of new allies.

You will notice that campaigns like Medina leave a coherent and energized grassroots in their wake, while Rothfeld campaigns are more likely to leave the liberty grassroots in smoking ruins. That should say a lot right there.

Ugh, I would suggest Brannon now take a page from the Paul/Medina book. When Ron lost, he started C4L, when Debra lost she started 'We Texans' to advance Texas liberty, she shut it down recently. But if Greg is up for it, he should start a NC state wide liberty group. Stovall is trying to do that here now, since he lost and Debra shut her group down. Just Greg's facebook page is a huge tool.

NewRightLibertarian
05-07-2014, 12:07 AM
Gunny, go easy on Matt Collins. He hitched his wagons to Paul Inc. If they're exposed as incompetent, that'll mean Collins' [mod delete]

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 12:09 AM
Translate: "Elected officials have two jobs: raising money and meeting voters."

No thanks. Take your swill elsewhere besides RPF.No, elected officials govern. Candidates campaign. Not every elected official is a candidate, and vice versa.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 12:10 AM
I know some people around here are seriously butthurt and likely now intoxicated, so I'm not going to take any of the personal insults seriously tonight.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 12:12 AM
"Rothfeld, founder of Virginia-based Saber Communications was delivering his pitch at the annual conference. In Paul-world, Rothfeld is an important figure; of the $40.6 million raised for Ron Paulís 2012 presidential campaign, nearly $7.7 million went to Saber. "Look at the other campaigns and see how much they spent on general consultants and direct mail.

Realize too that was gross, his profit was only a tiny fraction of that. A direct mail vendor makes pennies at a time.

Besides, if you want direct mail, Rothfeld is one of the best. And as far as anti-establishment direct mail goes, I think he's probably the only game in town capable of running large statewide direct mail programs.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 12:13 AM
I guess he doesn't understand Facebook algorithms, as sharing links is pointless.Nobody really does right now. FB keeps changing things. The only way to get seen on FB guaranteed is to buy ads.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 12:16 AM
People wanted to donate because of Ron Paul, they did not need all of the e-mails and snail mails to prompt them. Rothfeld has taken credit for something that was already happening. Not exactly. Yes there was obviously a lot of online momentum, but a little trick to many of the successful money bombs is that a direct mail piece goes out in advance, and then it all gets opened / entered online on the day of the moneybomb. This massively inflates the numbers.




Agree. Squeezing existing donors to the limit should be reserved for corrupt organizations like the NRA.It takes money to win, and when the establishment is spending $4 million dollars to beat you, and you only have $1 million dollars, you had better damn well squeeze donors to their limit if you want a chance at winning. Extracting the most amount of money from your lists is rational and necessary.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 12:16 AM
The direct mail was just about attempting to squeeze existing donors. And as a grassroots donor, I never responded to direct mails or e-mails.Many many many people did. So much in fact that it made it worth while to keep running a mega direct mail program.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 12:17 AM
Well, when someone from Mississippi is chosen to chair Rand Paul NC PCC, you can check the "loss" box by NC the day that decision is made. Gar-own-tee.That I agree makes sense. The Chair of a campaign should be a well recognized and liked figure from within the state. But they shouldn't be doing operations, they should be figure-heading and fundraising.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 12:38 AM
That I agree makes sense. The Chair of a campaign should be a well recognized and liked figure from within the state. But they shouldn't be doing operations, they should be figure-heading and fundraising.

Ok Mr Thinkyouknowitall, how would an operations guy from Nebraska win conservatives in NC's 1st District?

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 12:40 AM
It's the exact same in every District in America, right?

this is exactly why Paul Inc will never win NC until they have a come to Jesus moment and realize that they don't have a freaking clue here.

Aratus
05-07-2014, 12:44 AM
true... Gunny... true... i'm up in New England ...i'm agreeing with you.

Aratus
05-07-2014, 12:47 AM
"You will notice that campaigns like Medina leave a coherent and energized
grassroots in their wake, while Rothfeld campaigns are more likely to leave
the liberty grassroots in smoking ruins. That should say a lot right there."

mz10
05-07-2014, 06:54 AM
I'm not talking about Rand Paul. I am talking about Rothbard et al. I communicated with Reilly, who is from Louisiana. In Team Paul's estimation, he is as local as they want. You don't win NC by campaigning for LA. Their policy of never hiring locals for staffing under any circumstance is fail fail fail. After begging a job for 8 months, I finally told Reilly in August or September that they could not win NC without me. That was not ego speaking, that was cold analysis. Greg told me four times he wanted to hire me, but Reilly had veto power being campaign manager. Team Paul vetoed Brannon's victory, IMHO.

It sounds like you're upset that you didn't get a job.

Mike Rothfeld is a genius, I trust his judgment 10000x more than anyone on this website.

DeMintConservative
05-07-2014, 07:03 AM
The jury verdict was bad timing but it didn't seem to be a major issue.



And why do you think that is? Did anyone run ads on the jury verdict?

mz10
05-07-2014, 07:05 AM
Well, as nice as Nick Dyer seemed, he repeatedly acknowledged but did not act upon my offers to basically boost Brannon social media through the roof using my 1 million like page.

So it sounds like you're upset because they didn't use your FB page

DeMintConservative
05-07-2014, 07:05 AM
North Carolina Senate primary: Rand Paul endorses Thom Tillis

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/05/north-carolina-rand-paul-tillis-106431.html#ixzz312D2Y900


“Now that the primary is over, it is time for our side to unite to defeat the Democrat who cast the deciding vote for Obamacare, Kay Hagan, in November,” Paul said in a statement sent to reporters by his PAC. “I endorse Thom Tillis and look forward to working with him in the Senate. I congratulate my friend Greg Brannon on a well fought race and encourage all the candidates to unite for victory in November.”

mz10
05-07-2014, 07:08 AM
I know some people around here are seriously butthurt and likely now intoxicated, so I'm not going to take any of the personal insults seriously tonight.

I can see why Rothfeld didn't want to hire some of these people

Mr.NoSmile
05-07-2014, 07:15 AM
North Carolina Senate primary: Rand Paul endorses Thom Tillis

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/05/north-carolina-rand-paul-tillis-106431.html#ixzz312D2Y900

The whole unity thing. And each of the candidates running did say they'd support the eventual nominee. Whether they meant is another thing, but my guess is Paul is trying to save face and garner some of the neocon heads that probably wagged their fingers at him for backing, in their eyes, a candidate who they believe had no chance. I do wonder if he stands to gain anything from this. Recall that Ron Paul had the option to give a speech at the RNC in 2012 if it had been pre-approved by the Romney campaign and he endorsed Romney. Obviously he didn't speak. So while the elder Paul may have stood on firmer principle than his son, I have to wonder where this will push Senator Paul politically.

DeMintConservative
05-07-2014, 07:31 AM
The whole unity thing. And each of the candidates running did say they'd support the eventual nominee. Whether they meant is another thing, but my guess is Paul is trying to save face and garner some of the neocon heads that probably wagged their fingers at him for backing, in their eyes, a candidate who they believe had no chance. I do wonder if he stands to gain anything from this. Recall that Ron Paul had the option to give a speech at the RNC in 2012 if it had been pre-approved by the Romney campaign and he endorsed Romney. Obviously he didn't speak. So while the elder Paul may have stood on firmer principle than his son, I have to wonder where this will push Senator Paul politically.

It's good policy and good politics.

It's good policy because Tillis will vote with Paul much more often than Hagan.

It's good politics because in the case he's the GOP nominee for President in 2016, one of them will support him as the Senator from Noth Carolina. And that won't be Hagan. Why would anyone care to support Paul backed candidates who win the GOP primaries, including Paul himself, if they couldn't be trusted to reciprocate the favour? Sectarianism doesn't work in the major parties.

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 08:03 AM
It's good policy and good politics....for the establishment.

Fixed that for you.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 08:04 AM
Ok Mr Thinkyouknowitall, how would an operations guy from Nebraska win conservatives in NC's 1st District?Well, the same way you do it anywhere else... you survey and ID the district first and that tells you how to proceed with messaging.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 08:06 AM
It's the exact same in every District in America, right?Yes, human nature is the same everywhere.

DeMintConservative
05-07-2014, 08:45 AM
Fixed that for you.

It's good policy and good politics for Rand Paul. That's why he immediately endorsed Tillis.

You seem to believe that your "my way or the highway" approach will work. That if you keep telling "my way or the highway" to people, they'll eventually hang down their head and submissively join you. They won't: they'll take the highway. Isn't that what you would do? Why do you believe other Republicans would behave differently?

jbauer
05-07-2014, 09:25 AM
Not exactly. Yes there was obviously a lot of online momentum, but a little trick to many of the successful money bombs is that a direct mail piece goes out in advance, and then it all gets opened / entered online on the day of the moneybomb. This massively inflates the numbers.



It takes money to win, and when the establishment is spending $4 million dollars to beat you, and you only have $1 million dollars, you had better damn well squeeze donors to their limit if you want a chance at winning. Extracting the most amount of money from your lists is rational and necessary.

Matt I've never opened a single c4l or similar. None of that was a motivating factor for the money bombs. I sincerely doubt that the mailings and emails have done much at all. There's a reason were called Paulbots

FSP-Rebel
05-07-2014, 10:00 AM
Aw well, at least it was a respectable showing. Time to reset and reload for the other upcoming races, don't despair.

cbc58
05-07-2014, 11:16 AM
Tillis is an establishment POS and I WILL vote Hagan over him until the GOP establishment either submits or dies a much needed death. Thanks for trying, but, eventually the establishment GOP is gonna lose. Tell your friends in the GOP about this perspective. Because it is a reality.

This is why the dems win. Do you really want them to keep control? With all they have done since Obama has been in office - I hope people will do anything other than vote dems into office... anything... no matter how bitter or pissed off you are.

Imperial
05-07-2014, 11:25 AM
It's the exact same in every District in America, right?

this is exactly why Paul Inc will never win NC until they have a come to Jesus moment and realize that they don't have a freaking clue here.

You do realize that's a strawman, right? There have been successful campaigns run primarily by outside operatives.

There are obviously situations where out-of-state consultants fail to acknowledge local conditions and so make poor tactical decisions. But there are also states where bringing in an outside gun means you can bypass really dumb things that are done year after year that do nothing to help winning an election.

A good operation will have out-of-state expertise and build strong connections with the grassroots within the state. Matt has some experience with that having worked in MN in 2012, and I am sure he would attest to how well it worked here.

So far though, you have not provided evidence to substantiate your claim that out-of-state staff ran a horrible campaign. The only argument in support of it is that the campaign failed to hire you. Fine, but one hire wouldn't change the campaign. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but I have not seen much information to tell me one way or the other.

Matt is definitely right that there are basic things you have to do in every election. Raising money, IDing voters, etc. But local conditions matter as far as adaptation goes.

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 11:29 AM
You seem to believe that your "my way or the highway" approach will work. That if you keep telling "my way or the highway" to people, they'll eventually hang down their head and submissively join you. They won't: they'll take the highway. Isn't that what you would do? Why do you believe other Republicans would behave differently?

MY way or the highway, eh?:rolleyes:


Perhaps you should get involved in the Libertarian Party, you come across as a bit too over-emotional and sectarian for big tent parties.

mz10
05-07-2014, 11:39 AM
Matt I've never opened a single c4l or similar. None of that was a motivating factor for the money bombs. I sincerely doubt that the mailings and emails have done much at all. There's a reason were called Paulbots

The entire purpose of direct mail is to get 5% of people to do what you want. The fact that you personally don't open fundraising letters doesn't mean anything - enough people do to make it worthwhile.

Brian4Liberty
05-07-2014, 11:52 AM
The entire purpose of direct mail is to get 5% of people to do what you want. The fact that you personally don't open fundraising letters doesn't mean anything - enough people do to make it worthwhile.

95% waste then?

I've never been a fan of professional fundraisers of any kind. Whether it is at your church, a charity, a sports team or a political campaign. It's all about squeezing existing donors, as far as I can tell, and they take a healthy cut for themselves, all to get 5% of donors to give more, and permanently turn-off another percentage of existing donors (probably more than 5%).

Brian4Liberty
05-07-2014, 12:16 PM
Here is the real scoop:

SOURCE: http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/republican-establishment-sweeps-tea-party-in-first-round-of-primaries-20140506


A few notes.

1) There is a very simple explanation for why Brannon lost: he got majorly outspent. You don't have to perfectly match spending with your opponent, but it has to be enough to get your message out there. We saw the polls start closing when Brannon actually raised some money and got on the air, but it was too little, too late. Unlike Cruz in TX, Brannon didn't have someone like Peter Thiel, I mean the Club for Growth, pouring tons of money on his behalf. And unlike Paul, he didn't have the right last name.


I agree that the main issue was money spent.

The question is why did no outside liberty-oriented organizations help Brannon with cash, especially for TV ads? I know FreedomWorks put a lot of effort into this race, but I don't know if they have deep pockets for spending on ads? Where is the liberty, Tea Party, constitutional money?

jbauer
05-07-2014, 12:34 PM
This is why the dems win. Do you really want them to keep control? With all they have done since Obama has been in office - I hope people will do anything other than vote dems into office... anything... no matter how bitter or pissed off you are.

So youre ok with establishment doing and saying all kinds of untruths about tea party/liberty but then were all supposed to play nice? What if there isn't a dang bit of difference between the two?

DeMintConservative
05-07-2014, 12:43 PM
MY way or the highway, eh?:rolleyes:

Yeps. Isn't that your stance?

I'm just saying that your "my way or the highway" tactics don't work in big tent parties. By all means, feel free to keep pursuing them. But again, politics is about persuading people - and if you believe that antagonizing is the way to go, you're deluded.

DeMintConservative
05-07-2014, 12:46 PM
So youre ok with establishment doing and saying all kinds of untruths about tea party/liberty but then were all supposed to play nice? What if there isn't a dang bit of difference between the two?

Are you talking about the GOP establishment that supported Rand Paul, Thomas Massie or Justin Amash in the general election? Or Mark Sanford, Cruz, etc?

It seems obvious that cbc58 wasn't talking about the primary -no reason to play nice there-, rather the general election.

NewRightLibertarian
05-07-2014, 01:19 PM
It's good policy and good politics for Rand Paul. That's why he immediately endorsed Tillis.

You seem to believe that your "my way or the highway" approach will work. That if you keep telling "my way or the highway" to people, they'll eventually hang down their head and submissively join you. They won't: they'll take the highway. Isn't that what you would do? Why do you believe other Republicans would behave differently?

Your ignorant blather makes you sound like Karl Rove. How'd you end up on this website again?

HOLLYWOOD
05-07-2014, 01:30 PM
Where was TEA PARTY IDOL, Sarah Palin? She apparently had enough time and energy in the critical primaries to promote an establishment, big government war party, W. Bush insider and DC Lobbyist? But the North Carolina US Senate primary TEA PARTY candidate was just forgotten by Parlin? A matter of fact, their were 2 TEA PARTY candidates and phony Palin did nothing. She's part of the game, selling out America for her own establishment paychecks and prestige. If anyone had any Doubts that Sarah Parlin is a Con Artist and False Prophet of politics, look no further than her actions in North Carolina. Palin's a FASCIST... making millions dividing the people and pushing what the real owners of this country want.

http://kwout.com/cutout/f/xt/ie/hrw_bor.jpg

GOP establishment 1, tea party 0 after North Carolina Senate primary - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/06/politics/gop-tea-party-primary-results/)

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 01:47 PM
Are you talking about the GOP establishment that supported Rand Paul, Thomas Massie or Justin Amash in the general election? Or Mark Sanford, Cruz, etc?

It seems obvious that cbc58 wasn't talking about the primary -no reason to play nice there-, rather the general election.

You mean this GOP establishment?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?451309-Michigan-GOP-leaves-Justin-Amash-to-fend-for-himself

Brian4Liberty
05-07-2014, 01:52 PM
Where was TEA PARTY IDOL, Sarah Palin?

Palin and Cruz were conspicuously AWOL on this race.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 02:10 PM
It sounds like you're upset that you didn't get a job.

Mike Rothfeld is a genius, I trust his judgment 10000x more than anyone on this website.

Lim upset that we had a wasted opportunity to elect a strict Constitutionalist. I do not think like you do. You can trust Rothfeld all you want, but I hope you enjoyed the Bushes and the Obama's, because that's all trusting him is gonna get ya

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 02:14 PM
Yes, human nature is the same everywhere.
^^ this is why we keep losing.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 02:15 PM
I can see why Rothfeld didn't want to hire some of these people

Yeah, he clearly doesn't want to win.

Lucille
05-07-2014, 02:17 PM
I hope Brannon runs third party, but it sounds like he needs to fire his sucky campaign staff first.

TaftFan
05-07-2014, 02:47 PM
Taft, does this answer your question about how Rothfeld operates?

Yep.

TaftFan
05-07-2014, 02:49 PM
So it sounds like you're upset because they didn't use your FB page

No, I am upset I was a couple of times "I'm on it" when it fact nobody was on it.

I was offering free social media advertising. You don't just blow that off.

TaftFan
05-07-2014, 02:51 PM
Palin and Cruz were conspicuously AWOL on this race.

Cleared out a few PMs.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 02:54 PM
You do realize that's a strawman, right? There have been successful campaigns run primarily by outside operatives.

There are obviously situations where out-of-state consultants fail to acknowledge local conditions and so make poor tactical decisions. But there are also states where bringing in an outside gun means you can bypass really dumb things that are done year after year that do nothing to help winning an election.

A good operation will have out-of-state expertise and build strong connections with the grassroots within the state. Matt has some experience with that having worked in MN in 2012, and I am sure he would attest to how well it worked here.

So far though, you have not provided evidence to substantiate your claim that out-of-state staff ran a horrible campaign. The only argument in support of it is that the campaign failed to hire you. Fine, but one hire wouldn't change the campaign. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but I have not seen much information to tell me one way or the other.

I have been biting my tongue for a year at the stupidity of Reilley. Only my apolitical roommate and Oneil himself knew it, because I am orders of magnitude more politically savvy than the likes of Matt Collins. (oh and my mother, she hears me vent on these people daily for making stupid decisions.) Unlike so many around here, I have a personal rule: when it come to people you want in office, save the knives until after the election is over. People with good memories will realize that I have had that policy for 5-6 years a least, and stuck to it.

I unfortunately, do NOT have a very good memory (I never have) and I do not keep logbooks of others failings. I will say again, this was not a failure of Greg Brannon, this was a failure of Reilley Oneil and Paul Inc. Wasting resources o things irrelevant or negative in NC, and ignoring things important in NC. This happened because the only native to the campaign was the candidate, and Brannon himself was a political outsider who had (so far as I know) never even attended a convention cycle until he was running for Senate.

You can not win a State, any State, based on ignorance of that State.


Matt is definitely right that there are basic things you have to do in every election. Raising money, IDing voters, etc.

And every winning and losing campaign in the US in the last 150 years does that. That's like saying Rosie Odonnel should beat Martina Navrataloa at Tennis, because Odonnell breathes, and EVERY successful tennis player breathes!


But local conditions matter as far as adaptation goes.

This is true, but it is far more critical than Paul Inc seems to believe. Romney hired NC operatives to staff his NC campaign in 2012. McCain did not hire NC operatives to staff his NC campaign in 2008. McCain lost. Romney won. I am sure that Romney's people are wishing they has taken Rothfeld's approach. (NOT lol)

aclove
05-07-2014, 03:02 PM
Glen, if and when you have the time, I would very much appreciate the details of your perspective of what transpired in this campaign, specifically as it applies to advice ignored and resources squandered by the Paul, Inc staff.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 03:03 PM
It pretty telling that the only people who think I am being stupid on this, don't live in North Carolina. For years now, I have been a Cassandra amongst an entire movement of Cassandras. How many times have I said 'this is going to be a bad idea because... A b c" and just like now I am ignored and ridiculed. It turns out to be a horrible idea because a b c and lo and behold the same mockers and scorners cry out 'why didn't anybody see this coming?"

Of all the people one would have thought Ron Paul supporters would have been immune to the Cassandra syndrome. But obviously not.

The next time you see sheeple baaaaa-ing after some idea that you know is a known fail, and they mock you for disagreeing with their lunacy, remember to quash the thought that 'well Paul supporters wouldn't be that stupid' because I have been ranting about Paul supporters doing the exact same damn thing for 5 years now. We may not be as bad as the mainstream, but we have PLENTY of obstinate non-thinkers around here too.

Stones and and glass houses and all of that.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 03:08 PM
Glen, if and when you have the time, I would very much appreciate the details of your perspective of what transpired in this campaign, specifically as it applies to advice ignored and resources squandered by the Paul, Inc staff.

Sure, I'm probably looking Wednesday of next week and after. I just picked up a handful of site surveys that will keep me running for a week, and while I could carve time out of that, I wouldn't then really be prepared for the question at hand.

Brett85
05-07-2014, 03:23 PM
The people who are upset with Rand for endorsing Tillis would be wise to never run for any political office.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 03:42 PM
The people who are upset with Rand for endorsing Tillis would be wise to never run for any political office.

Seems wholly irrelevant to me. All Rand really did here was to strip another 8% or so off of his base, but he's a grownup and does what he wants. :)

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 04:06 PM
I was offering free social media advertising. You don't just blow that off.You realize that you can't offer a campaign anything for free, unless you are volunteering your time as a non-professional, right?

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 04:08 PM
Matt I've never opened a single c4l or similar. None of that was a motivating factor for the money bombs. I sincerely doubt that the mailings and emails have done much at all. Just because you didn't, does not mean that thousands of others didn't either. And you're dead wrong about direct mail, it works. I have seen it work, I have done it myself. In fact I have raised just south of $100k in the last few months from direct mail. It's called aggregation and there are entire industries built around direct mail. The fact that they keep doing it is a clue that it is still profitable.

TaftFan
05-07-2014, 04:11 PM
You realize that you can't offer a campaign anything for free, unless you are volunteering your time as a non-professional, right?

I'm certainly not a professional. I would equate it to offering a place for a sign on my piece of property.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 04:13 PM
I am orders of magnitude more politically savvy than the likes of Matt Collins.Nice personal insult... what the hell is wrong with you? Have you lost your mind? :confused:

Seriously dude, you are acting very immature and unprofessional. It's not very becoming and hurts your credibility.



This happened because the only native to the campaign was the candidateThat's actually not true... After thinking about it, I think Reilly lived in NC doing mortgages for a living, until he got hired for RP2012 and moved to Louisiana.



You can not win a State, any State, based on ignorance of that State.I agree. That's why polling and such is important.





Romney hired NC operatives to staff his NC campaign in 2012. McCain did not hire NC operatives to staff his NC campaign in 2008. McCain lost. Romney won.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 04:15 PM
I'm certainly not a professional. I would equate it to offering a place for a sign on my piece of property.Perhaps, and I don't know the details of what you were offering, but realize that the FEC may not see it that way.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 04:15 PM
So Glenn...


What did they do wrong? Please, be specific as I am interested in seeing your take on it.

angelatc
05-07-2014, 04:18 PM
Candidates are not the boss of their own campaign, or at least they shouldnt be. Candidates have 2 jobs: raising money and meeting voters. If they do anything else then they are causing harm.

This is one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen come out of your mouth.

I suppose after one of your candidates wins an election, You'd be here telling us that politicians are not the bosses in the offices they hold and that politicians have 2 jobs: raising money and meeting voters.

It's the office managers that hold the real power...

Brett85
05-07-2014, 04:28 PM
Seems wholly irrelevant to me. All Rand really did here was to strip another 8% or so off of his base, but he's a grownup and does what he wants. :)

You think that Rand lost 8% of his supporters simply by endorsing Tillis? Why? Are people just that nuts?

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 04:28 PM
This is one of the most pathetic things I've ever seen come out of your mouth.

I suppose after one of your candidates wins an election, You'd be here telling us that politicians are not the bosses in the offices they hold and that politicians have 2 jobs: raising money and meeting voters.

It's the office managers that hold the real power...
You are confusing candidates with elected officials.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 04:31 PM
95% waste then?Yep, and it STILL turns a very healthy profit!

I just made an 1100% ROI on a recent direct mail piece I did.




I've never been a fan of professional fundraisers of any kind. Whether it is at your church, a charity, a sports team or a political campaign. It's all about squeezing existing donors, as far as I can tell, and they take a healthy cut for themselves, all to get 5% of donors to give more, and permanently turn-off another percentage of existing donors (probably more than 5%).If it didn't work, then organizations would keep doing it. :rolleyes:

People who bring their own money to the table, in other words, people who are bringing money to an organization by way of fundraising, and then take a cut, are what enable organizations not only to survive but to grow. And if they are not costing the organization anything, what is the harm in getting paid for their work? Besides, if someone is good at what they do, and the market allows a price for their services, then what is wrong with it? Are you a communist?

Don't you want pro-liberty organizations and campaigns to be bigger?

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 04:32 PM
Nice personal insult... what the hell is wrong with you? Have you lost your mind? :confused:

I care about saving America from perdition, not about making money or making friends.


Seriously dude, you are acting very immature and unprofessional. It's not very becoming and hurts your credibility.

Truth is truth. I will not lie for you or anybody.

The bottom line is Rothfeld and Oneil got one of the worst neocons in the United States nominated. With friends like that who needs enemies?


That's actually not true... After thinking about it, I think Reilly lived in NC doing mortgages for a living, until he got hired for RP2012 and moved to Louisiana.

I have been involved in Ron Paul in NC since March of 2007 until this very day. Not one Party Republican or Ron Paul supporter had ever heard of Reilly Oneil until Rothfeld dragged him out of Louisiana. You have o actually be involved in a State's politics to understand that State's politics. I was born in Portsmouth Virginia. That fact does not grant me one iota of insight into VA's politics.


I agree. That's why polling and such is important.


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Once again, you are confusing premises with arguments. This is something that anyone who passed Logic 101 should have mastered. You should not be trying to correct other people's logic until you actually understand logic yourself. I stated the premises only, and let the reader form their own conclusions. There was no argument there at all to be 'fallacious' in the first place.

You really should actually learn formal logic before you try and educate others about it.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 04:35 PM
Yep, and it STILL turns a very healthy profit!

I just made an 1100% ROI on a recent direct mail piece I did.

So what you are telling us, Matt, is that you are part of the problem?


Are you a communist?

Speaking about fallacious argumentation....


Don't you want pro-liberty organizations and campaigns to be bigger?

Yes, which is precisely why those of us with functional brains are in the process of rejecting you and Rothfeld.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 04:41 PM
You think that Rand lost 8% of his supporters simply by endorsing Tillis? Why? Are people just that nuts?

Not supporters, base. The base is only 30% or so of the supporters. So it's more like 8% (kneejerks) of 30% (base) of 50% (supporters). 0.08 * 0.3 * 0.5 = 0.012, or 2.4% of Rand's supporters and 1.2% of the Primary electorate. 2.4% and 1.2% don't seem like much, but they are also the very-most passionate of the lot. Kicking them aside is not really wise. It's not something that cannot be overcome, mind you, and he probably picked up a small handful of new establishmentarian support behind the move, but those will not the be ones out there knocking doors and planting signs, and standing at the polls.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 04:46 PM
You realize that you can't offer a campaign anything for free, unless you are volunteering your time as a non-professional, right?

Have you never participated in a political campaign in your life? There is something called "gifts in kind." If you do not know what they are, then you should probably look it up.

Brett85
05-07-2014, 04:46 PM
Not supporters, base. The base is only 30% or so of the supporters. So it's more like 8% (kneejerks) of 30% (base) of 50% (supporters). 0.08 * 0.3 * 0.5 = 0.012, or 2.4% of Rand's supporters and 1.2% of the Primary electorate. 2.4% and 1.2% don't seem like much, but they are also the very-most passionate of the lot. Kicking them aside is not really wise. It's not something that cannot be overcome, mind you, and he probably picked up a small handful of new establishmentarian support behind the move, but those will not the be ones out there knocking doors and planting signs, and standing at the polls.

I guess I'm asking why a single Rand Paul supporter would abandon him simply because he endorsed the member of his own party against a Democrat. Do these people not realize that Rand is an elected Republican official? Rand went out on a limb and upset the establishment just for supporting Brannon in the primary. It was a foregone conclusion that he was going to endorse Tillis once the primary was over.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 04:50 PM
I guess I'm asking why a single Rand Paul supporter would abandon him simply because he endorsed the member of his own party against a Democrat. Do these people not realize that Rand is an elected Republican official? Rand went out on a limb and upset the establishment just for supporting Brannon in the primary. It was a foregone conclusion that he was going to endorse Tillis once the primary was over.

Just look at the reactions to such things around here on RPFs. I don't know 'why' any more than you do, I just know from experience that it simply 'is.' I never said it was a smart reaction.

Brett85
05-07-2014, 05:03 PM
Just look at the reactions to such things around here on RPFs. I don't know 'why' any more than you do, I just know from experience that it simply 'is.' I never said it was a smart reaction.

Ok. It just seems like Rand could never win over those people without alienating everyone else.

KCIndy
05-07-2014, 05:04 PM
The entire purpose of direct mail is to get 5% of people to do what you want. The fact that you personally don't open fundraising letters doesn't mean anything - enough people do to make it worthwhile.

I guess I don't know the "right" people, because I have never, never, EVER met anyone who had anything but disdain for all the junk mail associated with professional fundraising.

On the other hand, I have had numerous friends complain about sending in one small donation to a charity, only to be deluged with so much junk mail the cost of the junk mail is clearly more than the original contribution.

Maybe direct mail does get more responses than I imagine. Maybe it does work... But I'm guessing the only real winner in these scenarios - the only one who is really turning much profit in the endeavor - is the fat cat who is sending the bulk mailings.

HOLLYWOOD
05-07-2014, 05:26 PM
Not supporters, base. The base is only 30% or so of the supporters. So it's more like 8% (kneejerks) of 30% (base) of 50% (supporters). 0.08 * 0.3 * 0.5 = 0.012, or 2.4% of Rand's supporters and 1.2% of the Primary electorate. 2.4% and 1.2% don't seem like much, but they are also the very-most passionate of the lot. Kicking them aside is not really wise. It's not something that cannot be overcome, mind you, and he probably picked up a small handful of new establishmentarian support behind the move, but those will not the be ones out there knocking doors and planting signs, and standing at the polls.

Politics are a filthy-nasty business and the establishment will kill to control government positions if it's important enough. I say, do every rotten trick in the book to gain the seats... we witness first hand, dirty trick and rigged operations in every single aspect of an election. I'm putting something together now, calling it the Money Masters behind the current phony TEA PARTY bankrolling establishment NEOCON pro war progressive republicans...


While it's on my mind and not to divert this thread Glen... when you have a chance, any input on this state official(lifer) running the vacant post on NC-7 Congressional district 7? You know this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rouzer

From 1996-2001, Rouzer was a legislative aid and Senior Policy Adviser for U.S. Senators Jesse Helms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Helms) and Elizabeth Dole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Dole). In 2000, he ran for North Carolina Commissioner of Agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioner_of_Agriculture) and lost the Republican primary field.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 05:37 PM
Politics are a filthy-nasty business and the establishment will kill to control government positions if it's important enough. I say, do every rotten trick in the book to gain the seats... we witness first hand, dirty trick and rigged operations in every single aspect of an election. I'm putting something together now, calling it the Money Masters behind the current phony TEA PARTY bankrolling establishment NEOCON pro war progressive republicans...


While it's on my mind and not to divert this thread Glen... when you have a chance, any input on this state official(lifer) running the vacant post on NC-7 Congressional district 7? You know this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rouzer

Establishmentarian. A few shades more conservative than your run of the mill establishmentarian, so he will vote right on some issues where people like Tillis will not, but he can be counted on to vote wrong whenever the leadership turns the thumb screws, which they will do when a measure they really like is on the ropes.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 05:59 PM
Have you never participated in a political campaign in your life? There is something called "gifts in kind." If you do not know what they are, then you should probably look it up.Yes, and on every campaign I've been involved with in kind contributions have been avoided like the plague because they cause accounting and compliance nightmares.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 06:00 PM
So what you are telling us, Matt, is that you are part of the problem?If you think that direct mail doesn't work, then you are exceptionally ignorant of it.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 06:03 PM
I care about saving America from perdition, not about making money or making friends. If you acted like the way you're acting now, it's no wonder they didn't hire you. :rolleyes:

Acting the way you are here is a quick way to ensure that no one wants to work with you ever again.



There is a way to analyze a race and discuss shortcomings without making it personal. Your attitude sucks and you are coming across like you are whining over the fact that they didn't hire you. I thought you were smarter than that...




The bottom line is Rothfeld and Oneil got one of the worst neocons in the United States nominated. With friends like that who needs enemies?I don't know the details, I wasn't there. There is always room for improvement on every campaign, even the successful ones. But did it ever occur that possibly external factors beyond their control is what caused the loss?



I have been involved in Ron Paul in NC since March of 2007 until this very day. Not one Party Republican or Ron Paul supporter had ever heard of Reilly Oneil until Rothfeld dragged him out of Louisiana. You have o actually be involved in a State's politics to understand that State's politics. I was born in Portsmouth Virginia. That fact does not grant me one iota of insight into VA's politics.Well Reilly is actually from North Carolina, so your entire theory about him not being from there doesn't hold up.

Brian4Liberty
05-07-2014, 06:16 PM
People who bring their own money to the table, in other words, people who are bringing money to an organization by way of fundraising, and then take a cut, are what enable organizations not only to survive but to grow.

Bringing in new donors has value. Squeezing existing donors not so much.


And if they are not costing the organization anything, what is the harm in getting paid for their work? Besides, if someone is good at what they do, and the market allows a price for their services, then what is wrong with it?

That's a question for each individual. You are in that business, that's fine.

Some Ron Paul supporters would jump at the chance if Ron called them up and said, "hey, want to help with the campaign, and I'll pay you good money." Some might say "I'd rather just volunteer for free". To each his own.

Many people would question this business model only if the cut exceeded some percentage or maximum amount.


Don't you want pro-liberty organizations and campaigns to be bigger?

I'd rather the voters be knowledgeable rather than having a huge industry dedicated to extracting donations and spending massive amounts of money for elections. I'd rather not have an IRS and all of the dependent industries spawned from that.

But that desire is pure fantasy. Obviously, true pro-liberty organizations are preferable to all of the other special interests that are only interested in government handouts, crony relationships and their own preferred forms of tyranny.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 06:16 PM
If you acted like the way you're acting now, it's no wonder they didn't hire you. :rolleyes:

Acting the way you are here is a quick way to ensure that no one wants to work with you ever again.

Yes, because the entire planet is Matt Collins, and every Matt Collins shares your superficial obstinate ignorance.



There is a way to analyze a race and discuss shortcomings without making it personal. Your attitude sucks and you are coming across like you are whining over the fact that they didn't hire you. I thought you were smarter than that...

Funny, I've never considered you smart at all. And you are constantly confirming my suspicions.


I don't know the details, I wasn't there.

Which is where you acting like you know what the fk is going on here should end. However, this entire thread you have been acting like you are smarter than everybody else, while admitting that you do not actually know what's going on. This should be a clue-bat, Matt, but I am guessing it will not penetrate your obstinance.


There is always room for improvement on every campaign, even the successful ones. But did it ever occur that possibly external factors beyond their control is what caused the loss?

Well, since I told Reilly just shy of a year ago about the things he was doing that were going to cause Brannon to lose, Reilly ignored me and did them anyway, and then they lost, I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few here who hasn't already been proven completely wrong.


Well Reilly is actually from North Carolina, so your entire theory about him not being from there doesn't hold up.

And I was born in Portsmouth Virginia. That doesn't mean I know Jack about Virginia politics. For someone who likes to vomit links to a fallacy site, how is it that you are wholly incapable of expressing thought without engaging in fallacious logic yourself?

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 06:37 PM
Bringing in new donors has value. Squeezing existing donors not so much.No, it is always easier to get more sales / donors from existing customers/donors than to acquire new ones. Put another way, people who are most likely to give to you are those who have already given to you.

The same applies to business, as it applies to non-profits.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 06:47 PM
Funny, I've never considered you smart at all. And you are constantly confirming my suspicions.That's because you don't know me.




Well, since I told Reilly just shy of a year ago about the things he was doing that were going to cause Brannon to lose, Reilly ignored me and did them anyway, and then they lost, I'm pretty sure I'm one of the few here who hasn't already been proven completely wrong.Maybe, I dunno... but Rothfeld & Co does have tons of experience and many more victories than you do. He's been around a lot longer and is much more successful.


Again, I don't know the specifics of what went wrong in NC, but it is possible that even if the campaign did everything right, external factors still could have inhibited victory. I wasn't there, I don't know, and as such I am not forming an opinion.


But what I do know is you coming on here and bitching about people individually out in the open makes you look really bad, unprofessional, and like you are sore because they didn't hire you; even if you are completely justified in your remarks.

Whining "I told you so, I told you so" is childish.


I thought you were smarter than that, but I guess not. :(


With behavior like this no one is ever going to want you involved in anything they are doing in the future, even if you are indeed knowledgeable.

Seriously, with an attitude like this, it is no wonder they didn't hire you. If you were smart, you would go through and delete some of your posts on the subject.


And I was born in Portsmouth Virginia. That doesn't mean I know Jack about Virginia politics. You claimed that the campaign didn't hire anyone from NC. That is in fact not true because Reilly is from NC. So now you are changing your tune to say that even though he is from NC he wasn't plugged in.

That falls under this category:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 06:53 PM
That's because you don't know me.



Maybe, I dunno... but Rothfeld & Co does have tons of experience and many more victories than you do. He's been around a lot longer and is much more successful.


Again, I don't know the specifics of what went wrong in NC, but it is possible that even if the campaign did everything right, external factors still could have inhibited victory. I wasn't there, I don't know, and as such I am not forming an opinion.


But what I do know is you coming on here and bitching about people individually out in the open makes you look really bad, unprofessional, and like you are sore because they didn't hire you; even if you are completely justified in your remarks.

Whining "I told you so, I told you so" is childish.


I thought you were smarter than that, but I guess not. :(


With behavior like this no one is ever going to want you involved in anything they are doing in the future, even if you are indeed knowledgeable.

Seriously, with an attitude like this, it is no wonder they didn't hire you. If you were smart, you would go through and delete some of your posts on the subject.

I wouldn't work for Matt Collins if you paid me a million dollars an hour.


You claimed that the campaign didn't hire anyone from NC. That is in fact not true because Reilly is from NC.

You seem to confuse Louisiana and North Carolina. Perhaps you need a rest.


So now you are changing your tune to say that even though he is from NC he wasn't plugged in.

That falls under this category:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

You continue to remain unaware that you do not comprehend basic logic. The only person here engaging in fallacious argumentation, is you.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 06:57 PM
That's because you don't know me.


Are you not aware that you have become a joke and a byword around here? There is a reason for that. You are acting just like Paul, Inc, and you are accumulating the hate of the general liberty movement for the same reasons that Paul Inc. is accumulating the hate of the general liberty movement. Doubling down on insanity is not the path to sanity.

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 07:08 PM
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Neg. Rep.

Where exactly is it you got that Poli-Sci degree you allude too?

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 07:15 PM
Walter Jones hired campaign staff from NC, and Walter Jones won. I sent a resume to Jones also, and I am not even the slightest bit upset at not getting hired. Jones's campaign staff was not intractably stupid.

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 07:18 PM
Yeps. Isn't that your stance?

I'm just saying that your "my way or the highway" tactics don't work in big tent parties. By all means, feel free to keep pursuing them. But again, politics is about persuading people - and if you believe that antagonizing is the way to go, you're deluded.

Thank you for the political lesson in hypocrisy Jan. 2012 join member with one green rep bar. YOU certainly have the pulse on THIS community. :rolleyes: Shill for the establishment somewhere else. I'm not buying.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 07:21 PM
Thank you for the political lesson in hypocrisy Jan. 2012 join member with one green rep bar. YOU certainly have the pulse on THIS community. :rolleyes: Shill for the establishment somewhere else. I'm not buying.

I do find it interesting the people who keep shilling for the liberty-campaign status quo, when the liberty-campaign status quo keeps losing. A more conspiracy-oriented mind than mine might conclude this is intentional. Personally, I think it is just ego, hubris, and incompetence.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 07:31 PM
It sounds like you're upset that you didn't get a job.

Mike Rothfeld is a genius, I trust his judgment 10000x more than anyone on this website.

You will notice that every other political group on the planet takes care of their own, and they keep winning. While the liberty political org prefers to kick their own in the huevos, and wonders why they keep losing.

Tillis org, "Oh, you gave up half your life for 2 years to help me? Here, have an advisory position." Win.

Liberty campaign org, "Oh, you've devoted your entire life for 6 years to advancing this cause? LOL suck eggs bytch, I'm hiring people who have no clue." Loss.

For better or worse, you just can't keep shytting on your own base and expect victory.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 07:34 PM
You seem to confuse Louisiana and North Carolina. Perhaps you need a rest.Riley lived in NC before he lived in Louisiana.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 07:34 PM
Are you not aware that you have become a joke and a byword around here? Only to the immature

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 07:35 PM
Glen,

If you're so brilliant, why haven't you gotten re-elected?

Better yet, why haven't you gotten other liberty candidates elected?

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 07:36 PM
Riley lived in NC before he lived in Louisiana.

And I lived in Virginia before I lived in North Carolina. It doesn't mean that I know anything about Virginia politics.

You are sounding like a broken record. If Riley was here in 2008, then why has nobody who fought for Ron Paul in 2008 ever heard of the man? Where was he and what was he doing? He sure as hell wasn't involved in politics, or if he was, he wasn't helping Ron Paul in 2008 or we'd have known him.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 07:37 PM
Glen,

If you're so brilliant, why haven't you gotten re-elected?

Better yet, why haven't you gotten other liberty candidates elected?

I was redistricted because polls of my district showed me getting re-elected. You don't even know THAT and you claim to be some kind of fount of knowledge? ROFL! I think you are getting stupider by the minute now...

William Tell
05-07-2014, 07:38 PM
You will notice that every other political group on the planet takes care of their own, and they keep winning. While the liberty political org prefers to kick their own in the huevos, and wonders why they keep losing.

Tillis org, "Oh, you gave up half your life for 2 years to help me? Here, have an advisory position." Win.

Liberty campaign org, "Oh, you've devoted your entire life for 6 years to advancing this cause? LOL suck eggs bytch, I'm hiring people who have no clue." Loss.

For better or worse, you just can't keep shytting on your own base and expect victory.

Yep, the time has come for the grassroots to have a seat at the table. We are the best tool they have. Local talent should be a no brainer, locals know what locals want. And actually know the people the candidate is trying to relate to.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 07:38 PM
Only to the immature

You really need to get over yourself. Rejection of Matt Collins does not equal immaturity. If anything, rejection of Matt Collins implies intelligence.

William Tell
05-07-2014, 07:40 PM
Glen,

If you're so brilliant, why haven't you gotten re-elected?

Better yet, why haven't you gotten other liberty candidates elected?

Quit while you're behind, Matt.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 07:43 PM
Better yet, why haven't you gotten other liberty candidates elected?

There are several State House Member in office today in large part because of me. I've been getting people elected. What have you been doing, whining that nobody takes you seriously and must therefore be ignorant? Some career you have there Matt. :D

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 07:48 PM
That's because you don't know me.

Oh, oh, Matt. We know you well enough. Too well. Which is why, over the years, your opinions have become irrelevant to many. Ever wonder why you are the butt of jokes on this forum? Hint: We aren't laughing with you.

What was your G.P.A. in that Poli-Sci class?

jjdoyle
05-07-2014, 08:18 PM
Glen,

If you're so brilliant, why haven't you gotten re-elected?

Better yet, why haven't you gotten other liberty candidates elected?

Well, hello there political campaign expert. Aren't you one of the people associated with Ron Paul 2012, who received paychecks from it, but didn't donate a dime (according to the FEC site) to it?
Maybe you can explain how Ron Paul 2012 received fewer votes than Rick Santorum! LOL. Talk about brilliance in a campaign. LOSING to Rick Santorum. But raising more money than him.

That is either outright incompetence at its finest. Or, as I believe, designed to fail and not even really trying to win. Either one is horrid. At least Glen was TRYING to win, AND was outspent. BIG difference.

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:18 PM
Lim upset that we had a wasted opportunity to elect a strict Constitutionalist. I do not think like you do. You can trust Rothfeld all you want, but I hope you enjoyed the Bushes and the Obama's, because that's all trusting him is gonna get ya

Morton Blackwell trusts Mike Rothfeld. Richard Viguerie trusts Mike Rothfeld. Huck Walthers trusts Mike Rothfeld. Sorry, y'all don't even hold a candle to those guys who are pillars of the conservative movement.

Build a $10 million pro-gun organization from scratch. Then get back to me about how you are so much better than Mike Rothfeld.

William Tell
05-07-2014, 08:23 PM
Morton Blackwell trusts Mike Rothfeld. Richard Viguerie trusts Mike Rothfeld. Huck Walthers trusts Mike Rothfeld. Sorry, y'all don't even hold a candle to those guys who are pillars of the conservative movement.

Build a $10 million pro-gun organization from scratch. Then get back to me about how you are so much better than Mike Rothfeld.

He who has the gold, makes the rules eh? :rolleyes:

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:23 PM
One thing I hate about politics is butthurt people. I have to deal with them every day. It drives me batshit insane. Everyone thinks they are a world-class political strategist and gets all butthurt when they aren't treated like one. In reality most of them couldn't even run an organization in their own town, let alone a statewide or a national one.

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:24 PM
He who has the gold, makes the rules eh? :rolleyes:

He who builds the gold from scratch by his own skill, and then uses that gold to defeat Toomey-Manchin and defeat anti-gun Colorado state senators, makes the rules

devil21
05-07-2014, 08:26 PM
Morton Blackwell trusts Mike Rothfeld. Richard Viguerie trusts Mike Rothfeld. Huck Walthers trusts Mike Rothfeld. Sorry, y'all don't even hold a candle to those guys who are pillars of the conservative movement.

Build a $10 million pro-gun organization from scratch. Then get back to me about how you are so much better than Mike Rothfeld.

Who said we're better? The difference is why we are in this. It's pretty telling to me when I've donated more money to liberty candidates than this Rothfeld person, he donates next to nothing compared to what he's making off us, and apparently ends up with a good chunk of what I've donated. His priorities clearly are different than ours. I suspect some of them may even be diametrically opposed but that's just a hunch.

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 08:31 PM
Glen,

If you're so brilliant, why haven't you gotten re-elected?

Better yet, why haven't you gotten other liberty candidates elected?

Because he was gerrymandered by the establishment GOP. Christ, you are pathetic, Matt.

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:33 PM
Who said we're better? The difference is why we are in this. It's pretty telling to me when I've donated more money to liberty candidates than this Rothfeld person, he donates next to nothing compared to what he's making off us, and apparently ends up with a good chunk of what I've donated. His priorities clearly are different than ours. I suspect some of them may even be diametrically opposed but that's just a hunch.

You should meet Mike face-to-face, or at least hear him speak, before listening to all these whiners who are upset that they didn't get jobs. There legitimately might not be a thriving liberty movement right now without him - he and John Tate took Ron Paul and his grassroots followers, and made us a genuine political force.

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 08:33 PM
One thing I hate about politics is butthurt people. I have to deal with them every day. It drives me batshit insane. Everyone thinks they are a world-class political strategist and gets all butthurt when they aren't treated like one. In reality most of them couldn't even run an organization in their own town, let alone a statewide or a national one.

You deal with them everyday? Who is it you work for? Who are you? What are your credentials?

NewRightLibertarian
05-07-2014, 08:34 PM
Morton Blackwell trusts Mike Rothfeld. Richard Viguerie trusts Mike Rothfeld. Huck Walthers trusts Mike Rothfeld. Sorry, y'all don't even hold a candle to those guys who are pillars of the conservative movement.

Build a $10 million pro-gun organization from scratch. Then get back to me about how you are so much better than Mike Rothfeld.

Do you ever think about promoting liberty rather than riding some influence peddler's nutsack?

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:36 PM
You deal with them everyday? Who is it you work for? Who are you? What are your credentials?

I am David Rockefeller and I work for the Trilateral Commission

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 08:38 PM
You should meet Mike face-to-face, or at least hear him speak, before listening to all these whiners who are upset that they didn't get jobs. There legitimately might not be a thriving liberty movement right now without him - he and John Tate took Ron Paul and his grassroots followers, and made us a genuine political force.

The liberty movement was around before them. And will be after. Nice try. You and your ilk can try to co-opt but it won't work. We can smell operatives from a mile away. And you stink.

http://www.metallicaworld.co.uk/metworld/dogshit1.jpg

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:39 PM
Do you ever think about promoting liberty rather than riding some influence peddler's nutsack?

Tell me how many miles you've put on your car in the past week/month/year promoting liberty? Have you ever sacrificed your job/education/reputation for the cause of liberty?

No, you haven't? Oh okay. I was just curious.

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 08:44 PM
Tell me how many miles you've put on your car in the past week/month/year promoting liberty? Have you ever sacrificed your job/education/reputation for the cause of liberty?

No, you haven't? Oh okay. I was just curious.

And you have? You had no job? No family? No commitments? You did all these things out of benevolence without receiving a single bit of compensation except for the gratification that you were doing all the above for the "liberty movement?" How long have you been doing it? Are you independently wealthy?

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:47 PM
And you have? You had no job? No family? No commitments? You did all these things out of benevolence without receiving a single bit of compensation except for the gratification that you were doing all the above for the "liberty movement?" How long have you been doing it? Are you independently wealthy?

Didn't you read my comment earlier? I am David Rockefeller. I have billions of dollars that I leeched off of the hard work of the sheeple. That's how I can afford all of my liberty activism.

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:48 PM
And you have? You had no job? No family? No commitments? You did all these things out of benevolence without receiving a single bit of compensation except for the gratification that you were doing all the above for the "liberty movement?" How long have you been doing it? Are you independently wealthy?

The non-sarcastic answer to your question, by the way, is yes. I have a job on the side, that doesn't pay very well. To this point everything I have done in politics I have done 100% for free. And I spend well over 40 hours a week doing it. How about you?

NewRightLibertarian
05-07-2014, 08:48 PM
Tell me how many miles you've put on your car in the past week/month/year promoting liberty? Have you ever sacrificed your job/education/reputation for the cause of liberty?

No, you haven't? Oh okay. I was just curious.

Yeah, obviously all of your hard work is really paying off in Massachusetts :rolleyes: Maybe if you keep playing kiss ass, Rothfeld might throw you some of the shekels he has bilked the liberty movement out of though.

mz10
05-07-2014, 08:50 PM
And you have? You had no job? No family? No commitments? You did all these things out of benevolence without receiving a single bit of compensation except for the gratification that you were doing all the above for the "liberty movement?" How long have you been doing it? Are you independently wealthy?

And if I ever did get paid - which hopefully I will at some point - I will not apologize for it, so long as I am still fighting for the things I believe in

kathy88
05-07-2014, 08:51 PM
Now now... Come on Gunny and Matt. SHAKE HANDS and make up.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 08:54 PM
I was redistricted because polls of my district showed me getting re-elected. No, of course I knew that... but you were talking about going somewhere else and running. Although I see that you haven't.


There are several State House Member in office today in large part because of me. I've been getting people elected.That's great, if true.


What have you been doing, whining that nobody takes you seriously and must therefore be ignorant? Some career you have there Matt. :DWhat I do I keep on the downlow for strategic reasons. But I work full time for the cause of liberty. What is your day job?

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 08:55 PM
The non-sarcastic answer to your question, by the way, is yes. I have a job on the side, that doesn't pay very well. To this point everything I have done in politics I have done 100% for free. And I spend well over 40 hours a week doing it. How about you?

40 a week with a job on the side? Confirmation and proof please.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 08:56 PM
Well, hello there political campaign expert. Aren't you one of the people associated with Ron Paul 2012, who received paychecks from it, but didn't donate a dime (according to the FEC site) to it?Actually I did donate, your facts are wrong. But I also sacrificed opportunity costs to be on the campaign.

mz10
05-07-2014, 09:01 PM
40 a week with a job on the side? Confirmation and proof please.

Sure, I'll send you a Snapchat selfie from the road tomorrow

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 09:19 PM
Sure, I'll send you a Snapchat selfie from the road tomorrow

Good to go. Please add in trip tickets, gas receipts (do you pay these or are you reimbursed?) and any available testimony from heads of organizations that you work with regards to your hours worked non-gratis and what it is you do.

phill4paul
05-07-2014, 09:21 PM
Actually I did donate, your facts are wrong. But I also sacrificed opportunity costs to be on the campaign.

Was this while you were working on your Poli-Sci degree or after? What school was it that you got this degree in?

jjdoyle
05-07-2014, 09:22 PM
Actually I did donate, your facts are wrong. But I also sacrificed opportunity costs to be on the campaign.

OPPORTUNITY costs!? LOL!
But, the FEC has no listing for you in the general search, those are my "facts", and where I searched. I guess I'll open up the campaign finances and see what month(s) you actually donated to Ron Paul 2012. Because I know some have said it before, and the FEC general searches don't show anything for you. Unless you're the Matthew Collins donating to Democrat candidates? I understand some here don't like McConnell, but I didn't think you would have already donated to Grimes' campaign.

MichaelDavis
05-07-2014, 09:23 PM
OPPORTUNITY costs!? LOL!
But, the FEC has no listing for you in the general search, those are my "facts", and where I searched. I guess I'll open up the campaign finances and see what month(s) you actually donated to Ron Paul 2012. Because I know some have said it before, and the FEC general searches don't show anything for you. Unless you're the Matthew Collins donating to Democrat candidates? I understand some here don't like McConnell, but I didn't think you would have already donated to Grimes' campaign.

The FEC only records donations above $200.00. Not many people here have donated that much.

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 09:30 PM
Now now... Come on Gunny and Matt. SHAKE HANDS and make up.

Matt doesn't shake hands with people who do not worship him. Don't you remember why he was kicked out of the GOP? [mod delete]

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 09:33 PM
Matt doesn't shake hands with people who do not worship him. Don't you remember why he was kicked out of the GOP? [mod delete].
Now you're name calling... your lack of maturity is showing.

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 09:33 PM
Was this while you were working on your Poli-Sci degree or after? What school was it that you got this degree in?I never said anything about a pol-sci degree. :rolleyes:

GunnyFreedom
05-07-2014, 09:35 PM
Now you're name calling... your lack of maturity is showing.

I referred to the reason you were kicked out of the GOP as evidence why you are the LAST person people should listen to for political advice. [mod delete]

Matt Collins
05-07-2014, 09:46 PM
I referred to the reason you were kicked out of the GOP as evidence why you are the LAST person people should listen to for political advice. [mod delete].
I wasn't kicked out of the GOP.... you should learn your facts.

jjdoyle
05-07-2014, 10:01 PM
The FEC only records donations above $200.00. Not many people here have donated that much.

True. But, Rick Santorum did receive more votes than Ron Paul. And Ron Paul 2012 raised more money than Rick Santorum's campaign. So, Matt Collins and those associated with Ron Paul 2012, did less, with more. Less than Rick Santorum.
IF there is ever a reason why somebody from Ron Paul 2012 SHOULDN'T be associated with Rand in 2016, there is just one simple reason. They couldn't get more votes than Rick Santorum.