Driving one’s hands at the “ten-and-two position” is reason for pull over

[squarepusher]

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/cindy-lee-westhoven/

Federal court rules that stiff driving posture is suspicious behavior A panel of judges unanimously ruled that having hands at "ten-and-two" is suspicious enough to stop drivers inside the USA. Posted on May 1, 2014 by Site Staff (http://www.policestateusa.com/author/psusa/) in News (http://www.policestateusa.com/category/news/)
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/border-patrol-1.jpeg (http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/border-patrol-1.jpeg) (Source: AP)

NEW MEXICO — A federal appeals court has ruled that driving one’s hands at the “ten-and-two position” is reason enough to pull someone over for further investigation. No traffic laws have to actually be broken Additionally, the court ruled that facial acne is reason enough to suspect the driver is a drug smuggler.
The incident took place on April 18, 2012, at roughly 7:45 p.m. A border patrol agent driving down Highway 80 saw a white Ford F-150 heading the opposite direction. This took place roughly 40 miles north of the U.S./Mexico border — well inside the United States.
Although the truck was witnessed breaking no traffic laws, Border Patrol Agent Joshua Semmerling claimed he noticed several things that drew his suspicions — while passing the truck at 60 miles per hour.
First was the driver’s upright posture. The female driver was sitting up straight with her hands properly located on the upper part of the steering wheel. This was viewed as suspicious activity.

Secondly, the agent claimed that the truck’s tinted windows were suspicious. It remains unclear how the agent saw driver’s posture through the “suspicious” tint.

Lastly was the truck’s rear license plate — which the agent claims to have observed in his rear-view mirror while traveling at a high rate of speed in the opposite direction (http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/43/4394.asp). He claimed that he noticed it was from out-of-state, another suspicious characteristic.
The agent decided to make a U-turn and stop the truck.
The driver identified herself as Cindy Lee Westhoven of Tucson, Arizona. Agent Semmerling then used his keen crime-detecting skills to justify a search of her truck. He saw that Mrs. Westhoven had “acne” on her face and claimed that it was grounds for suspecting her to be a methamphetamine user.

Mrs. Westhoven had already proven she was a U.S. citizen. She had no warrants and had broken no laws, yet Agent Semmerling claimed that he believed she might be smuggling illegal aliens and/or drugs. When she refused to consent to a search, the agent used a drug K9 to sniff her truck. The dog turned up a small amount of cannabis. Westhoven was arrested.
Later in court, Westhoven’s defense tried to overturn the arrest due to the shaky ground which the stop was performed upon. Her attorney argued that the evidence was obtained illegally. She was unsuccessful.
“Driving stiffly, having tinted windows, slowing down when seeing law enforcement, and driving in an out-of-the-way area may be innocent conduct by themselves,” Judge Scott M. Matheson, Jr., wrote for the appellate panel. “But when taken together along with driving a vehicle with out-of-state plates in a mountainous smuggling corridor 40-45 miles away from the border, we conclude Agent Semmerling had reasonable suspicion Ms. Westhoven was involved in smuggling activity.”

The 3-judge panel on the Tenth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals unanimously upheld the search, and rejected Westhoven’s motion to suppress the evidence.
The acceptance of such flimsy suspicions in court is the practical acceptance of zero need for any real indication of a crime occurring before any American can be stopped and searched by federal agents.
Source: http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/pix/pdf-mini.gif US v. Westhoven (http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2014/us-goodposture.pdf) (US Court of Appeals, Tenth Circuit, 4/24/2014)

[phill4paul]

"The police can do any damn thing they please. Because....f*ck you. Oh, and pay the court fees on your way out for wasting our time." Federal Appeals Court.

[moostraks]

And when they don't have enough reason to pull you over they lie and good luck proving it. They were notorious for lying about swerving over the line in Alabama. We owned homes in Georgia and Alabama and when we had Georgia plates we were constantly pulled over when we were in Alabama. As soon as we switched to Alabama plates they stopped harassing us. One of the reasons I would never move south again (and a billion dollars would not be enough for me to set foot in the state of Alabama).

So guess I drive suspiciously as I often drive 10 & 2. Why don't we just give up all this silly pretense of need for these stops? They can do what they want cause the officers' bed buddy, the judges, say they can. It is like battered spouse syndrome, nothing you do will stop the police from harassing you because they will change the rules whenever they please and you best be sure to be kissing their rear if they are in the mood to be messing with you.

[kathy88]

My dad was a driver's ed teacher..... we learned that 10 and 2 were the proper hand positions.

[fisharmor]

The part they always leave out is how there was at least 90 minutes of wait time, during which Agent Semmerling recited prepared speeches at Mrs. Westhoven so as to convince himself that everything he was doing was really a good thing (despite his innate knowledge that it was not). Odds are good that those speeches actually contained some variant of the words "I'm just following orders".

I know this is a slight change of tune for me, but I've realized recently that the people on the ground likely do have some scrap of morality in them.... in the same manner that most SS officers had some scrap of morality in them. They've just got a 24/7 stream of suppression bearing against it.

I'm also convinced that what happened in Nevada was not just a result of pointing guns at them.
The uninformed declare "But most cops are good people!" and we guffaw and harangue them for being so naive.
But there's an element of truth to that. Most of them actually do have at least a remnant of humanity in them.

A lot of people come home from wars and face what they did to people whom they have even demonized for the last six years and yet still end up broken and contrite.
There must also be a way to get through to domestic soldiers.... hopefully prior to the point where they're trading our body parts with each other.

Some of the Bundy ranch soldiers must have seen the enormity of what they were doing. Some of them must have communicated this to the others.

As much as Satan wants me to wish revenge on them, I'm becoming more hopeful that there's probably a peaceful way to get through to them.

[fisharmor]

BTW they actually teach new drivers to hold the wheel at the bottom now. So as not to interfere with the airbag deploying.

Remember, airbags have been mandated for over 20 years now, but AFAIK there is still no mandate for antilock brakes.

They still assume that it's better to survive accidents than it is never to have them.

[CPUd]

10 and 2 is so 1990s. We are doing 9 and 3 now so the airbag doesn't break our wrists.

[angelatc]

My dad was a driver's ed teacher..... we learned that 10 and 2 were the proper hand positions.

I"d get pulled over all the time. I drive sitting bolt upright, my back doesn't even touch the seat. And I usually have my hands in the 10 / 2 position too.

[KCIndy]

I"d get pulled over all the time. I drive sitting bolt upright, my back doesn't even touch the seat. And I usually have my hands in the 10 / 2 position too.

I'm guessing that's the way almost all of us who learned to drive prior to the mid-90s hold the wheel. :( And I usually sit straight up in the seat too.

I've never understood how anyone could stand to drive with the seat leaning way back, although youngsters today tell me this has something to do with "gangsta rap" and driving "like you're cruisin' in the 'hood." :confused::confused:

[oyarde]

I have a sore back most of the time so I keep my seat straight , upright. Only one hand on the wheel so I can rest my sore shoulder and hold my beer.I use my bad foot on the accelerator and brake with the other foot.No acne , no 10 & 2 but I do have a shotgun on the seat. Nothing suspicious here , move along public servants ,go save some puppies or something , Oyarde does not need any assistance.

[jllundqu]

'murica

[angelatc]

I'm guessing that's the way almost all of us who learned to drive prior to the mid-90s hold the wheel. :( And I usually sit straight up in the seat too.

I've never understood how anyone could stand to drive with the seat leaning way back, although youngsters today tell me this has something to do with "gangsta rap" and driving "like you're cruisin' in the 'hood." :confused::confused:

My Dad is really tall, he leans the seat waaaay back and steers with his knee when he goes into full on cruise mode. Which, fortunately, isn't often.

[CaptUSA]

My dad was a driver's ed teacher..... we learned that 10 and 2 were the proper hand positions.

My dad taught me 6 and PBR with a Detroit lean. ;)

[pcosmar]

I"d get pulled over all the time. I drive sitting bolt upright, my back doesn't even touch the seat. And I usually have my hands in the 10 / 2 position too.

Do you have acne?

[oyarde]

I do not care for seat belts , but that airbag , that thing looks scary , I might need to disable it .

[coastie]

I have NEVER driven a car with my hands at 10 and 2(except maybe to pass driver's ed, which I only took for the insurance discount).

Either 6 or 12 for me.

I disabled my airbags years ago, they almost killed my sister once from a 25 mph rear end collision, they deployed when her bumper hit the car in front of her(she was rear-ended if that didn't make sense).


I mainly drive my 5 speed daily, so that has some to do with it I suppose, but I also drive my automatic like that as well.


I was going to get my windows tinted here soon...now maybe not.

It was this exact reason(contact with the police) I never got them tinted to begin with.


eta^^^

Being American is all about conforming your behavior to avoid the authorities at all costs now.



Fuck yeah!

[pcosmar]

I have NEVER driven a car with my hands at 10 and 2(except maybe to pass driver's ed, which I only took for the insurance discount).



I do usually,, But there was no mandatory insurance when I took Drivers Ed.

I signed a Financial Responsibility form when I got my first car.
(I have still never wrecked one)

[roho76]

So, following the law is suspicion of breaking the law? Hmmm....

[coastie]

I do usually,, But there was no mandatory insurance when I took Drivers Ed.

I signed a Financial Responsibility form when I got my first car.
(I have still never wrecked one)

I don't believe there's Driver's ED at all anymore where I live.

Still have never wrecked neither. Been hit by others on several occasions, every time their dumb ass faults.

Some people shouldn't be driving, and from my coast guard days, even fewer should be driving boats, trust me.

[oyarde]

So, following the law is suspicion of breaking the law? Hmmm....

I cannot understand these Judges. Wtf ? how are anyones hands on wheel suspicious ? Not .

[KCIndy]

Airbags are freakin' dangerous!


http://www.kare11.com/story/news/local/2014/04/30/pothole-deploys-airbag/8546293/


MINNEAPOLIS - The metro's pothole problem has taken a dangerous turn for a St. Paul man. Dustin Duarte was driving to a friend's house on 46th Street near Minnehaha Avenue in Minneapolis Tuesday night - when he hit a pothole.

The impact was so hard the undercarriage of his car hit the pavement and his airbags deployed. He ended up with a bloody eye but was able to pull off the road safely....

.....Duarte has a concussion and a scratched cornea.

Duarte says getting his airbags "re-packed" will cost more than his car is worth, so he will have to buy a new vehicle.


I suppose there's some dumbass law on the books that says if your car came equipped with airbags, you're either required to replace them after an accident or buy a new car. :(

[catfeathers]

I usually steer with my left hand, because of so many lights between home and where I need to go, got to shift a lot of gears with my right.

My son was laughing at my driving one day coming back from the grocery store that is close to home, but on the other side of a 4 lane highway. I have small hands and I can't reach the turn signal without letting hold of the steering wheel. So to get home it was: pull into the merge lane, right hand on steering wheel, signal to get in right lane, switch to left, shift, back to right, signal to get in left lane, back to left, shift, back to right, signal for the turn lane, back to left to shift again. :D

[donnay]

And when they don't have enough reason to pull you over they lie and good luck proving it. They were notorious for lying about swerving over the line in Alabama. We owned homes in Georgia and Alabama and when we had Georgia plates we were constantly pulled over when we were in Alabama. As soon as we switched to Alabama plates they stopped harassing us. One of the reasons I would never move south again (and a billion dollars would not be enough for me to set foot in the state of Alabama).

So guess I drive suspiciously as I often drive 10 & 2. Why don't we just give up all this silly pretense of need for these stops? They can do what they want cause the officers' bed buddy, the judges, say they can. It is like battered spouse syndrome, nothing you do will stop the police from harassing you because they will change the rules whenever they please and you best be sure to be kissing their rear if they are in the mood to be messing with you.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
~Ayn Rand

When I took driving lessons I was instructed to have my hands at 10 and 2. When you took your driving test and your hands were not firmly at 10 and 2 they would flunk you.

[coastie]

I usually steer with my left hand, because of so many lights between home and where I need to go, got to shift a lot of gears with my right.

My son was laughing at my driving one day coming back from the grocery store that is close to home, but on the other side of a 4 lane highway. I have small hands and I can't reach the turn signal without letting hold of the steering wheel. So to get home it was: pull into the merge lane, right hand on steering wheel, signal to get in right lane, switch to left, shift, back to right, signal to get in left lane, back to left, shift, back to right, signal for the turn lane, back to left to shift again. :D

:confused:

I have never in my life heard of that problem. Are you a little person, or something? You can usually each a turn signal with a finger, let alone the entire hand.

Sounds dangerous, scary and yet strangely entertaining to be a passenger in your car, lol.

[catfeathers]

LOL, short but not a little person, I just have small hands and stubby fingers. The turn signal seems to be a little farther away from the steering wheel than some. Or maybe it's just a habit from driving a car where the turn signal actually was broken off. :rolleyes:

[pcosmar]

I suppose there's some dumbass law on the books that says if your car came equipped with airbags, you're either required to replace them after an accident or buy a new car. :(
http://www.oemairbags.com/dummy_car_air_bag_covers.aspx


Car air bag covers (Dummy Airbags) are a popular cosmetic alternative for automotive dealers who don't want to invest in repairing the vehicle to factory specs. This product is a simple dummy cover that goes in place of the SRS airbag modules. The dummy cover offers a false sense of security for the unaware owner or passenger of the vehicle. To that effect most, car dealers installing such covers are asking car buyers to sign a liability release waving any right to prosecute them in a court of law. However, signing the release may omit dealers from prosecution but could land you in a court room defending your decision. Simply stated, any unaware person riding in the passenger seat could take you to court for injuries suffered in your vehicle. If the car is equipped with airbags and you choose not to replace or install airbags your legal problems could over shadow any savings. Another more plausible scenario is the fact of reselling your vehicle and not having the new owner sign the release. The legal quagmire is endless and could easily have been avoided using less expensive recycled airbags.

Less expensive Recycled Airbags??
Stolen airbags air common among unscrupulous repair shops.

Covers are one cheaper alternative,, but should be made known that there are no airbags.
http://www.airbag.lt/en/airbag-covers/
http://www.best-deal.com/search/landing/query/dummy+airbag+covers/s/google/koid/1664571162/?query=dummy+airbag+covers&mob=0&gclid=CPrxkYLljb4CFaw-MgodUB4Afw

[coastie]

LOL, short but not a little person, I just have small hands and stubby fingers. The turn signal seems to be a little farther away from the steering wheel than some. Or maybe it's just a habit from driving a car where the turn signal actually was broken off. :rolleyes:

Time to break that habit, sounds even more dangerous than my driving around with a bad master cylinder for the last 6 months...Shhh. (It's fixed now)

[phill4paul]

Sounds like steering wheels need sensors in them alerting a driver to proper hand positioning.


...ducks. :o

[catfeathers]

Time to break that habit, sounds even more dangerous than my driving around with a bad master cylinder for the last 6 months...Shhh. (It's fixed now)

It's less than half a mile that I drive like that and there's usually not much traffic, maybe I should just stop signalling. ;)

[Red Green]

If you want to look inconspicuous while driving in the CBP operating theater, best to use the 'Detroit lean' so as not to arouse suspicion....

[TonySutton]

Coming soon to a court near you...

Driving with a seat belt on is suspicious activity, followed by, driving with a seat belt off is suspicious activity. A fun filled catch 22 just for you!

[Anti Federalist]

So, following the law is suspicion of breaking the law? Hmmm....

Just another indicator of the Kafka-esque nightmare that AmeriKa has become.

Oh and LOL @ the "I'm not doing anything wrong" crowd, yet again.

[PaulConventionWV]

I'm guessing that's the way almost all of us who learned to drive prior to the mid-90s hold the wheel. :( And I usually sit straight up in the seat too.

I've never understood how anyone could stand to drive with the seat leaning way back, although youngsters today tell me this has something to do with "gangsta rap" and driving "like you're cruisin' in the 'hood." :confused::confused:

Hardly. I drive with one hand all the time, and the last thing you'd call me is gangsta. I tend to use the bottom of the steering wheel and just twirl it around with my palm when making turns.

[PaulConventionWV]

This is a new precedent, as far as I know. The Constitution has always required real, physical indication of a crime in order to hold up to the standard of "reasonable suspicion" in the Constitution. Apparently, though, these behaviors which are characteristic of just about anybody now provide reasonable suspicion. There's effectively no such thing as the Constitutional standard of reasonable suspicion anymore. The officer can just take facts from his surroundings that you see every single day and make them suspicious, and now that's okay.

When obeying the law becomes suspicious, you know it's a police state.

[PaulConventionWV]

BTW they actually teach new drivers to hold the wheel at the bottom now. So as not to interfere with the airbag deploying.

Remember, airbags have been mandated for over 20 years now, but AFAIK there is still no mandate for antilock brakes.

They still assume that it's better to survive accidents than it is never to have them.

Anti-lock brakes aren't always a good thing. They assume the driver doesn't know how to stop on their own. The driver can actually be more effective at stopping without anti-lock brakes. It's the same for traction controls. All of the automatic controls on cars are largely unnecessary and sometimes even detrimental. Your larger point is right, though. The state's logic is all screwed up.

[PaulConventionWV]

I usually steer with my left hand, because of so many lights between home and where I need to go, got to shift a lot of gears with my right.

My son was laughing at my driving one day coming back from the grocery store that is close to home, but on the other side of a 4 lane highway. I have small hands and I can't reach the turn signal without letting hold of the steering wheel. So to get home it was: pull into the merge lane, right hand on steering wheel, signal to get in right lane, switch to left, shift, back to right, signal to get in left lane, back to left, shift, back to right, signal for the turn lane, back to left to shift again. :D

That's how I drive. Sometimes I'm doing something else with my other hand :D and I reach around with my right for the blinker. Other than that, my hand (singular) is always at 12 or 6. And no, I'm not a gangsta.

[GunnyFreedom]

I've only ever done 10 and 2 for drivers ed. When I am in intense driving it's 9 and 3; far more efficient, and if you look carefully it is also largely how Formula 1 drivers drive.

[PaulConventionWV]

Just another indicator of the Kafka-esque nightmare that AmeriKa has become.

Oh and LOL @ the "I'm not doing anything wrong" crowd, yet again.

Oftentimes I'm not doing anything wrong, but I don't expect that to save me.

[Nirvikalpa]

Wait... people actually drive with their hands on 10 and 2? After my driving test that was the first lesson I abandoned.

FWIW as I read another post where someone said they need to take their hand off the steering wheel to hit the blinker - I've only encountered that problem in an ambulance (which ya think for as heavy a vehicle it is and as much power it has, they'd make it a lil easier. POS Fords /rant [sorry if I offended u Ford lovers out there]), and I'd kinda slide my hand so that my wrist was still on the steering wheel or at least providing it some stability. The only time I ever drive with two hands is in an ambulance.

In my own personal vehicle I could reach the blinker with my hand, but I never do, because it's not comfortable to me to drive with two hands. *shrugs* Never had any issues...