PDA

View Full Version : Glenn Greenwald to debate former NSA/CIA Director Michael Hayden at 7 pm ET




tsai3904
05-01-2014, 11:02 PM
http://i58.tinypic.com/2u8f439.jpg

Teaming up with Greenwald is Alexis Ohanian, co-founder of Reddit.

https://www.munkdebates.com/debates/state-surveillance


Edit: Seems like the debate will be live streamed here (without having to become a member):

http://munkdebates.com/live.aspx

kcchiefs6465
05-02-2014, 08:16 AM
Bump.

Hopefully someone tubes.

surf
05-02-2014, 10:51 AM
this is gonna be like Seahawks vs Broncos (or the Sounders vs Rapids last weekend)

go get him Glenn. he's a hero.

jllundqu
05-02-2014, 11:42 AM
Bump +rep for the OP

jllundqu
05-02-2014, 11:42 AM
Yes please tube it. This should be very interesting.

jllundqu
05-02-2014, 11:43 AM
Greewald is so good on his feet he should fare pretty well against Hayden. Greewald does awesome in spur of the moment questions because he knows the programs so well and is really an authority on this issue. I hope this gets a lot of attention

tsai3904
05-02-2014, 04:59 PM
bump

jllundqu
05-02-2014, 05:07 PM
Pre-debate remarks from Glenn:


Munk Debate on State Surveillance Summary
By Glenn Greenwald
Debating the surveillance state requires that one first be clear about what it is and, more importantly, what it is not. Nobody opposes targeted surveillance: meaning invading the communications of individuals credibly believed to be plotting terrorist attacks or other threats to legitimate national security.
But that has almost nothing to do with the actual surveillance state created, in the dark, by the U.S. and its four English-speaking surveillance allies (the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand). This actual surveillance system is expressed by the National Security Agency's (NSA) own slogan which appears repeatedly throughout its own documents: collect it all.
That is an apt phrase. It describes exactly what the NSA's objective is: to eliminate privacy worldwide by collecting and storing all electronic communications that take place between all human beings on the planet. It is devoted to sweeping up every email, every telephone call, every Google search, every browsing activity, and every online transaction in which people engage. That is not hyperbole: the NSA's own documents leave no doubt that this is exactly its mission.
It is, in sum, the most invasive and sweeping system of suspicionless surveillance ever bult. It is designed to ensure that the communications of everyone - not terrorists, not violent criminals, not arms dealers, but everyone - is subject to being read, listened to and otherwise monitored by unseen, unchecked officials of the national security state.
"Terrorism" is the pretext, not the cause or justification, of this sprawling system. Indeed, over the past 12 years, the U.S. has left no doubt that it yells "the terrorists" as a means of scaring populations into submitting to whatever it wants to do, no matter how radical and destructive.
"Terrorism" was the phrase used to justify the American torture regime, the due-process-free imprisonment of people at Guantanamo, the aggressive invasion
and subsequent destruction of Iraq, kidnapping people through "renditions", and a whole slew of other extremist and previously unthinkable assertions of force carried out in secret. And now it is the fear-mongering slogan hauled out to justify why a small set of governments should be collecting and monitoring the commnications of everyone who uses the internet or a telephone.
It should be no surprise, then, that even numerous indepenent tribunals of the U.S. governmemt itself have concluded that claims of "terrorism" do not remotely justify the surveillance programs. Within the last four months, a federal court, a body of experts appointed by President Barack Obama to help reform the NSA, two Senators from Obama's own party who serve on the Intelligence Commitee, and the President's long-standing Privacy and Civil Liberties Board have all vehemently rejected the assertion that these NSA programs are helpful in stopping terrorists plots. Both the court and Board concluded illegal - even Obama hismelf now says must stop.
The revelations enabled by Edward Snowden over the past 10 months - by themselves - leave no doubt that "terrorism" is a tactic used to justify this system, not its actual purpose. Those documents have exposed systematic, highly invasive surveillance of the communications within oil companies and energy minstries in Brazil, western banking systems, and even the democratically elected leaders of America's closet allies.
But most of all, the Snowden documents have revealed the actual target of this system: entire populations of innocent, law-abiding people who have done nothing wrong, and who should not have their private communications and other acts collected and stored by distant governments operating in secret. They even include the spying government's own citizens, en masse, who now know that the vast bulk of this system is devoted to sweeping up and storing massive amounts of their own private activities.
This is the stuff of which science fiction writers from many decades ago - Orwell and Huxley - urgently warned. Indeed, this system of ubiquitious surveillance - exploiting the promise of the internet to render all electronic commmunications and activities susceptible to state monitoring - exceeds what they were able to
envision even as their grimest scenarios.

HOLLYWOOD
05-02-2014, 05:42 PM
If you want a warmup... you can watch the debate between Barton Gellman and former 4 star general Michael Hayden on the NSA and privacy laws... this debate is 2 hours long

You truly can see the twisted career radicalized mind of an Military Industrialist advocating Nazi Germany, DDR Stasism, WARSAW PACT control, and Soviet style Marxism for America.
Unequivocally, I believe Michael Hayden is a Nazi and I haven't changed by opinion or posts that for years on this forum. Yes, well before the Snowden NSA-WaPo-Guardian disclosures, I warned of this evil individual, Michael V. Hayden.


http://www.c-span.org/video/?318674-1/debate-nsa-privacy-laws April 3, 2014 National Security Agency and Privacy Debate

Michael Hayden and Barton Gellman debated the role of the National Security Agency (NSA) and privacy laws. They spoke about the process by which the NSA conducted its operations, including how requests are made to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) that grants or reject surveillance warrants, how so-called “incidental data” of Americans is collected overseas, and how to achieve a balance between national security concerns and privacy issues.

People in this video


Gellman, Barton (http://www.c-span.org/person/?21176) Correspondent (Former) Washington Post->Special Projects
Hayden, Michael V. (http://www.c-span.org/person/?92893) Director (Former) Central Intelligence Agency



Levine, Alan (http://www.c-span.org/person/?93000) Professor American University

Hosting Organization


American University | School of Public Affairs (http://www.c-span.org/search/?sponsorid[]=6886)

Related Video
See all on NSA Wiretaps (http://www.c-span.org/search/?tagid[]=5558&sort=Newest)


National Security Agency Surveillance Programs

(http://www.c-span.org/video/?319002-1/nsa-surveillance-media-coverage)Edward Snowden Revelations Panel
(http://www.c-span.org/video/?318416-1/edward-snowden-revelations-panel) The three journalists who were chosen by Edward Snowden to receive top-secret National Security Agency (NSA) files were…

Clips from This Video


April 3, 2014 CDR Meta Data (http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4495743/cdr-meta-data)

23 minutes


http://images.c-spanvideo.org/Files/597/20140414200125001_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.125.no_border.width.220.jpg (http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4495633/nsa) April 3, 2014 nsa (http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4495633/nsa)

2 hours
33 views


http://images.c-spanvideo.org/Files/597/20140414200125001_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.125.no_border.width.220.jpg (http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4496113/hi) April 3, 2014 hi (http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4496113/hi)

22 minutes
7 views


http://images.c-spanvideo.org/Files/597/20140414200125001_hd.jpg/Thumbs/height.125.no_border.width.220.jpg (http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4496407/test) April 3, 2014 test
(http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4496407/test)

JK/SEA
05-02-2014, 06:42 PM
Debate Poll

Is state surveillance a legitimate defence of our freedoms?

Thank you for your vote!
RUNNING TALLY
Pro:
144 votes (14%)
Con:
824 votes (79%)
Undecided:
75 votes (7%)

Carson
05-02-2014, 07:23 PM
I'm not really for the spying but since some of those guys are, I wonder what our NSA has on Benghazi. Maybe someone could ask one of them?

Shouldn't we have had a report by now?



There were some other events that maybe they could shed some light on but they slip my mind at the moment.

Carson
05-02-2014, 07:25 PM
Greewald is so good on his feet he should fare pretty well against Hayden. Greewald does awesome in spur of the moment questions because he knows the programs so well and is really an authority on this issue. I hope this gets a lot of attention

He is sharp.

It must beat up an editor trying to edit and make him look bad.

tsai3904
05-02-2014, 07:32 PM
pre and post debate live audience poll results:

462400142843183105

Greendwald's team won by a net 3 point movement. I thought Ohanian did a horrible job and wished it was Hayden/Dershowitz vs Greenwald.

Inkblots
05-02-2014, 07:36 PM
Greendwald's team won by a net 3 point movement. I thought Ohanian did a horrible job and wished it was Hayden/Dershowitz vs Greenwald.

Haven't watched it yet, but that's exactly what I expected. How they decided a co-founder of Reddit is at all qualified to speak to these issues is beyond me.

HOLLYWOOD
05-02-2014, 08:04 PM
I'm not really for the spying but since some of those guys are, I wonder what our NSA has on Benghazi. Maybe someone could ask one of them?

Shouldn't we have had a report by now?



There were some other events that maybe they could shed some light on but they slip my mind at the moment.This is the one thing I wish Snowden has/would have in his data dump... the personal-dossier files on the; POTUS, SCOTUS, political party leaders, corporate-.gov communications. There's a huge pile of; RICO, bribery-blackmail, etc within government corp .

That would be the 'coup de grāce'

Carson
05-02-2014, 08:13 PM
This is the one thing I wish Snowden has/would have in his data dump... the personal-dossier files on the; POTUS, SCOTUS, political party leaders, corporate-.gov communications. There's a huge pile of; RICO, bribery-blackmail, etc within government corp .

That would be the 'coup de grāce'


I'm pretty satisfied that they seemed to expose the methods.


I am against the spying but if they are going to claim to be legitimate they may want to start acting like it some day.

I afraid that the only time we will see anything come about, it will be because of some ulterior motive. As in having something on everyone but only using it to further something like ... carrier lost.

kcchiefs6465
05-02-2014, 08:20 PM
Haven't watched it yet, but that's exactly what I expected. How they decided a co-founder of Reddit is at all qualified to speak to these issues is beyond me.
You have to consider, too, that they picked a known war criminal for the affirmative.

If he is 'qualified' for anything more than a prison cell, I clearly have overlooked it. I suppose it illustrates the position well, though. Who better to argue for the affirmative than a lying, tick-like, war criminal?

http://i.imgur.com/F0Mwr9Q.png?1
http://i.imgur.com/tkjzUA3.png?1
http://i.imgur.com/jZ34pXT.png?1
http://i.imgur.com/YYkyHmp.png?1

Dirty Wars: The World is a Battlefield. Jeremy Scahill. 4998-5022

HOLLYWOOD
05-02-2014, 08:31 PM
I'm pretty satisfied that they seemed to expose the methods.


I am against the spying but if they are going to claim to be legitimate they may want to start acting like it some day.

I afraid that the only time we will see anything come about, it will be because of some ulterior motive. As in having something on everyone but only using it to further something like ... carrier lost.When Barton Gellman debated Hayden, they got into the 9/11 synopsis of events... Hayden revealed the NSA-CIA had all this information, and data shared with agencies, about everyone being tracked... all Yemeni calls, southern Cal Saudi house, travels... when Hayden convincingly revealed all this, one has to wonder... Who let 9/11 happen then? Because it was Hayden who said they had all the info, tracked all of them, and shared the data with US agencies, which is the opposite of what everyone has been told.

Inkblots
05-02-2014, 08:53 PM
For those who missed it, you can watch the debate here (skip ahead to 27:00 for the start):

http://new.livestream.com/Munk-Debates/events/2939050

CPUd
05-02-2014, 10:45 PM
For those who missed it, you can watch the debate here (skip ahead to 27:00 for the start):

http://new.livestream.com/Munk-Debates/events/2939050

debate winner at 1:38:22



pre and post debate live audience poll results:

462400142843183105

Greendwald's team won by a net 3 point movement. I thought Ohanian did a horrible job and wished it was Hayden/Dershowitz vs Greenwald.

It seemed like Ohanian was there to give the points about how surveillance affects private businesses on the web, and while he didn't offer a lot compared to the others, he did a lot to draw them in by continually pushing the point that surveillance results in less security, not more. They had no choice but to respond with lock boxes and transoms, then Greenwald was able to destroy their argument.

idiom
05-03-2014, 05:36 AM
Made the front page of Russia Today.

http://rt.com/usa/156536-hayden-greenwald-state-surveillance-debate/

Is there a single American media outlet that covered it?

tod evans
05-03-2014, 05:50 AM
????????????Please?????????

http://www.uberreview.com/wp-content/uploads/nat-audio-magma-tube-amplifier-1.jpg

The Rebel Poet
05-03-2014, 09:11 AM
Straight off I thought Michael Hayden looks like Red Forman, and then I remembered this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjCdznA4sgY

HOLLYWOOD
05-05-2014, 11:56 AM
debate winner at 1:38:22


It seemed like Ohanian was there to give the points about how surveillance affects private businesses on the web, and while he didn't offer a lot compared to the others, he did a lot to draw them in by continually pushing the point that surveillance results in less security, not more. They had no choice but to respond with lock boxes and transoms, then Greenwald was able to destroy their argument. Yes, that was SMOKIN'... singe what hair Hayden had left on his body.

Hard to argue with the facts... BTW, where is Eric Holder arresting General Keith Alexander and James Clapper.

kcchiefs6465
05-05-2014, 07:57 PM
Yes, that was SMOKIN'... singe what hair Hayden had left on his body.

Hard to argue with the facts... BTW, where is Eric Holder arresting General Keith Alexander and James Clapper.
And Michael Hayden.