A California Jail Is Torturing My Brother to Death

[twomp]

On Thursday April 17 my brother Brad was on his way to a baseball game in SF with an old college friend of mine. Kathleen would tell me later that the message on her cell phone was short and to the point—he couldn’t make it, something had come up. I introduced Kathleen to my brother in the visiting room at San Quentin State Prison. Even though the trek there always involved bad food, arbitrary authority, long lines and hours of waiting, she came with me frequently and over the years our long conversations made them goods friends. Brad was finally paroled after 34 years. He had been “breathing free air” as he likes to say, for 6 months when she got the call saying he wasn’t gong to make it to the game.

That morning the parole officer came to the half-way house in Oakland where Brad was living and also cooking breakfast for the mostly young, African American men housed there as an alternative to incarceration. When I visited the month he got out, one of them told me how much he liked Brad, who was also doing some mentoring with them. Tucker, the parole officer, took Brad to Santa Rita Jail, Dublin, in Alameda County based on alleged traces of THC in a drug test." Though 67, and much worse for the wear of 34 years inside, Brad had been healthy and happy that morning before he was arrested and entered the facility.

My niece Elena got up at 6 am to make the drive from Tracy over the Altamont Pass for the 8am phone visit behind glass in Santa Rita Jail. It was Saturday morning—Brad had been there for almost 2 days. An IT business engineer not given to hyperbole, Elena’s words in the email when she got back were chilling,

Brad’s in pretty bad shape. He has not been given any of his prescriptions since he has been in, including his blood pressure meds or painkillers. I don't know how much more physical stress he can endure, much less the mental - he looks pale and shaky and frail.”

Full story: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/04/29-7

[dillo]

My dad always told me the 2 most important people you can be friends with are a lawyer and a mechanic

[Elias Graves]

All too common, unfortunately. A good friend of mine who recently won his appeal after proving innocence has very similar tales.
Sorry to hear about it.

[angelatc]

Because the writer is a liberal who advocates for big government at every chance, I don't actually care one whit what the government does to him and his family.

Under it all, the whole piece seems to be an attack on the "for profit" model than legitimate concern for his brother. Yes, government/private partnerships are fascism. But he's only railing against fascism because it isn't socialism or communism?

His concluding paragraphs: 'the for-profit Tennessee based medical contractor ...." "—cost cutting, profit-making 'protocols,'' "monetized brutality,"

They make everything about money, then get pissed when there isn't enough money. There will *never* be enough money to suit these people and their endless pit of needs.

[Red Green]

If he served 34 years and got out on parole, I suspect his crime had to do with killing someone, but who knows. If he did something heinous to some innocent, I don't really feel a who lot of sympathy for his plight.

[angelatc]

If he served 34 years and got out on parole, I suspect his crime had to do with killing someone, but who knows. If he did something heinous to some innocent, I don't really feel a who lot of sympathy for his plight.

I thought that too....34 years ago was 1980, and (without looking it up) the harsh drug penalties for cocaine and crack weren't in full swing yet. 3-strike rule, mandatory minimum sentences...all that stuff came later.

12 years prior to that LSD was still legal, for some context.

[pcosmar]

If he served 34 years and got out on parole, I suspect his crime had to do with killing someone, but who knows. If he did something heinous to some innocent, I don't really feel a who lot of sympathy for his plight.

I knew a man when I was in that had been locked up for over 20 years.. He had never been convicted or even charged with anything.

He refused to testify against his brother and was locked up for contempt.
His brother was convicted and served his sentence,, and was released. He was still locked up..

He was released shortly before I left Jefferson City (old and in poor heath),, and died shortly afterward. (within months)

Just because someone is in prison does not mean they committed any crime.

[Red Green]

I knew a man when I was in that had been locked up for over 20 years.. He had never been convicted or even charged with anything.

He refused to testify against his brother and was locked up for contempt.
His brother was convicted and served his sentence,, and was released. He was still locked up..

He was released shortly before I left Jefferson City (old and in poor heath),, and died shortly afterward. (within months)

Just because someone is in prison does not mean they committed any crime.

True, but the story is obviously designed to make the reader sympathize with plight of the criminal in this case. I would think that if the guy was imprisoned that long for something trivial, the author would have wanted to point that out.

[Ender]

True, but the story is obviously designed to make the reader sympathize with plight of the criminal in this case. I would think that if the guy was imprisoned that long for something trivial, the author would have wanted to point that out.

SO. WHAT.

If the man has paid for his crimes, it's not enough for you?

And who cares what the initial writer believes in- if this man is being held and may die because of injustice, everyone should care.

[Red Green]

SO. WHAT.

If the man has paid for his crimes, it's not enough for you?

And who cares what the initial writer believes in- if this man is being held and may die because of injustice, everyone should care.

The state took what it considered a sufficient price. That might not be my price for whatever the infraction was. If he raped and killed a young girl, then I hope the fucker rots to death slowly. If the guy was busted for moving coke, I think after day one in prison he paid too much. The state is not the arbiter of what is right, at least not in my mind.

[Ender]

The state took what it considered a sufficient price. That might not be my price for whatever the infraction was. If he raped and killed a young girl, then I hope the fucker rots to death slowly. If the guy was busted for moving coke, I think after day one in prison he paid too much. The state is not the arbiter of what is right, at least not in my mind.

JUDGE NOT.

Especially when you have no facts.

[Red Green]

JUDGE NOT.

Especially when you have no facts.

OK so I shouldn't have any sympathy for this guy, because that involves a judgement and I don't have the facts.

[Anti Federalist]

The state took what it considered a sufficient price. That might not be my price for whatever the infraction was. If he raped and killed a young girl, then I hope the fucker rots to death slowly. If the guy was busted for moving coke, I think after day one in prison he paid too much. The state is not the arbiter of what is right, at least not in my mind.

1 in 25 on death row are innocent.

In prison, I'd stake a year's wages that 3 out 10 are innocent.

[Red Green]

1 in 25 on death row are innocent.

In prison, I'd stake a year's wages that 3 out 10 are innocent.

It's hard to say how many have been railroaded, but again if this guy was railroaded you would think the author would want to bring that up.

[Danke]

OK so I shouldn't have any sympathy for this guy, because that involves a judgement and I don't have the facts.

Sometimes Red is Green.

[eduardo89]

1 in 25 on death row are innocent.

Source/proof of that?

[Danke]

Source/proof of that?

So concerned with American justice...

[belian78]

My God. I'm absolutely appalled at some's feelings in here. So vindictive and downright venomous, just because of political leaning or because of time spent behind bars? This man gave his pound of flesh, yet he'll die in prison because he allegedly had ingested plant material? It's just heinous beyond measure to do that to someone. But some here have not an ounce of compassion for this man or his family, that's bad..bad.

[Danke]

My God. I'm absolutely appalled at some's feelings in here. So vindictive and downright venomous, just because of political leaning or because of time spent behind bars? This man gave his pound of flesh, yet he'll die in prison because he allegedly had ingested plant material? It's just heinous beyond measure to do that to someone. But some here have not an ounce of compassion for this man or his family, that's bad..bad.

Do we have a link to the original case?

[Red Green]

My God. I'm absolutely appalled at some's feelings in here. So vindictive and downright venomous, just because of political leaning or because of time spent behind bars? This man gave his pound of flesh, yet he'll die in prison because he allegedly had ingested plant material? It's just heinous beyond measure to do that to someone. But some here have not an ounce of compassion for this man or his family, that's bad..bad.

Nobody is saying he should be in prison for smoking weed, the question I have is what did he serve 34 years for.

[PaulConventionWV]

Because the writer is a liberal who advocates for big government at every chance, I don't actually care one whit what the government does to him and his family.

Under it all, the whole piece seems to be an attack on the "for profit" model than legitimate concern for his brother. Yes, government/private partnerships are fascism. But he's only railing against fascism because it isn't socialism or communism?

His concluding paragraphs: 'the for-profit Tennessee based medical contractor ...." "—cost cutting, profit-making 'protocols,'' "monetized brutality,"

They make everything about money, then get pissed when there isn't enough money. There will *never* be enough money to suit these people and their endless pit of needs.

You don't care what the government does to him and his family? That seems a bit collectivist. Every member of his family is an individual who deserves consideration as such. He might be a statist scumbag, but does that mean he deserves the government's oppression?

I am of the belief that nobody should have to go through that, not even the people we don't like. If we wish that on somebody, it's only a matter of time before we let it happen to ourselves as well.

[PaulConventionWV]

The state took what it considered a sufficient price. That might not be my price for whatever the infraction was. If he raped and killed a young girl, then I hope the fucker rots to death slowly. If the guy was busted for moving coke, I think after day one in prison he paid too much. The state is not the arbiter of what is right, at least not in my mind.

People can change. Is no amount of time sufficient to remove old stains on our history? We've all done things that we deserved retribution for, but should they stick with you forever? Should no one be forgiven or at least given consideration?

[belian78]

Nobody is saying he should be in prison for smoking weed, the question I have is what did he serve 34 years for.
It doesn't matter, that's besides the point. He spent his time, it's inconsequential, the only thing that matters is that he will most likely die behind bars for ingesting plant material.

[PaulConventionWV]

OK so I shouldn't have any sympathy for this guy, because that involves a judgement and I don't have the facts.

The normal human condition is to have sympathy for people who have gone through pain and suffering, so having sympathy for this guy would be the standard position before knowing the facts.

There are certain legal principles that apply to personal judgment as well as legal judgment and certain things that do not. Innocent until proven guilty is one of those things that should apply to personal judgment.

[Red Green]

People can change. Is no amount of time sufficient to remove old stains on our history? We've all done things that we deserved retribution for, but should they stick with you forever? Should no one be forgiven or at least given consideration?

Some crimes are unforgivable and they speak to a certain mindset. I'll always root for whatever team is playing against Michael Vick in hopes that Vick ends up with a broken spine. Anyone who can do what Vick did is not a human and in my mind will never be redeemed in my mind.

[Red Green]

It doesn't matter, that's besides the point. He spent his time, it's inconsequential, the only thing that matters is that he will most likely die behind bars for ingesting plant material.

The fact that he is back in prison is directly related to whatever he got convicted for 35 years ago, so it's not exactly inconsequential.

[belian78]

No, he went against some arbitrary rule the state put on him while being an ex-con. He paid his time, he should be a completely free man, no matter what he did. And ingesting plant material is so immaterial it's crazy, yet because of it this man will most likely die in jail.

[Danke]

Some crimes are unforgivable and they speak to a certain mindset. I'll always root for whatever team is playing against Michael Vick in hopes that Vick ends up with a broken spine. Anyone who can do what Vick did is not a human and in my mind will never be redeemed in my mind.


You brought Michael Vick into this thread?

And want him permanently injured?

Dogs fight each other, so you want to ban nature now too?

I don't think his behavior is right, but I don't call cops if no one is injured.

[Nirvikalpa]

Because the writer is a liberal who advocates for big government at every chance, I don't actually care one whit what the government does to him and his family.

Under it all, the whole piece seems to be an attack on the "for profit" model than legitimate concern for his brother. Yes, government/private partnerships are fascism. But he's only railing against fascism because it isn't socialism or communism?

His concluding paragraphs: 'the for-profit Tennessee based medical contractor ...." "—cost cutting, profit-making 'protocols,'' "monetized brutality,"

They make everything about money, then get pissed when there isn't enough money. There will *never* be enough money to suit these people and their endless pit of needs.

Good ol' Christian pro-lifer.

[Red Green]

No, he went against some arbitrary rule the state put on him while being an ex-con. He paid his time, he should be a completely free man, no matter what he did. And ingesting plant material is so immaterial it's crazy, yet because of it this man will most likely die in jail.

Actually it has nothing to do with being an ex-con and everything to do with being on parole. I hate defending the state in this case, but if you are going to point to the fact that he "did the time" so I shouldn't question, then the fact is that he didn't "do the time" and as a result is out on parole.

All I'm saying is that before I get all weepy-eyed about this guy's plight, I would like to know a little bit more about how he ended up here which is something the author suspiciously omitted.

[Red Green]

You brought Michael Vick into this thread?

And want him permanently injured?

Dogs fight each other, so you want to ban nature now too?

I don't think his behavior is right, but I don't call cops if no one is injured.

Dogs also get along with each other, and they don't use electric cords to shock or ropes to choke each other or any number of other ways that fucktard got his rocks off torturing dogs.

Yeah, fuck him --- I would love to see that fucker carried off the field in pieces.

[angelatc]

Good ol' Christian pro-lifer.

I'm not a Christian.

It's a political forum. If you want to hang around people that agree set aside politics for the sake of humanity, might I suggest you try a return to the church.

[eduardo89]

Good ol' Christian pro-lifer.

2) Maintain good etiquette by treating other people with respect.
• No insulting, antagonizing or personally attacking other users.

[angelatc]

2) Maintain good etiquette by treating other people with respect.
• No insulting, antagonizing or personally attacking other users.

Now that you think about it, in what world is calling someone a pro-life Christian an insult?

Oh yeah... THAT world.

[donnay]

Source/proof of that?

Google is your friend.

2 second search:

Study: 1 in 25 death cases likely innocent
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/study-1-25-death-cases-likely-innocent

[Nirvikalpa]

Now that you think about it, in what world is calling someone a pro-life Christian an insult?

Oh yeah... THAT world.

The same world where someone feels torture is acceptable or they can at least turn a blind eye to it, so long as the person being tortured has a different political belief than them.

And you knew I was targeting your "pro-life" stance, which I consider completely hypocritical given your remarks on this thread and threads elsewhere.

[angelatc]

The same world where someone feels torture is acceptable or they can at least turn a blind eye to it, so long as the person being tortured has a different political belief than them.

Like I said, it's a political forum. If you want to go hold hands with the progressives and sing "We Are The World," I'm just not ever up for that.

At age 50, I have earned the right to be selective about what fucks I give and whom I give them to. Progressive writers using a felonized sibling to rail against capitalism and profit is pretty low on my list.

[Danke]

Yeah, fuck him --- I would love to see that fucker carried off the field in pieces.

So you value a dog's life over human.

[fr33]

I don't know what their brother did but I sure wouldn't hold him accountable for his siblings' political views.

[CPUd]

No, he went against some arbitrary rule the state put on him while being an ex-con. He paid his time, he should be a completely free man, no matter what he did. And ingesting plant material is so immaterial it's crazy, yet because of it this man will most likely die in jail.

Parole means the state has determined someone is not a threat to the community and can serve the remainder of the sentence on the other side of the wall. A person on parole is still effectively property of the state. Depending on which state, that person will be waiving some rights before they agree to grant parole. The PO can do just about whatever, and due process is limited. If the PO wants a "client" locked up, it will happen, even if there are no new criminal charges.

[twomp]

The same world where someone feels torture is acceptable or they can at least turn a blind eye to it, so long as the person being tortured has a different political belief than them.

And you knew I was targeting your "pro-life" stance, which I consider completely hypocritical given your remarks on this thread and threads elsewhere.

I think most of these "pro-life" people don't really support it because of their morals. They are just "pro-lfe" because Team Blue isn't. After that baby is born, they wouldn't give a rat's ass if that baby lived or died, or suffered as long as the baby wasn't aborted. That would also explain why those "pro-life" Tea Party folks go around preaching to everyone about the immorality of abortion then in the same breath call for the bombing of other countries where countless innocent civilians (women, children, babies and probably even pregnant women) die. It's just used as a political tool.

[Antischism]

My God. I'm absolutely appalled at some's feelings in here. So vindictive and downright venomous, just because of political leaning or because of time spent behind bars? This man gave his pound of flesh, yet he'll die in prison because he allegedly had ingested plant material? It's just heinous beyond measure to do that to someone. But some here have not an ounce of compassion for this man or his family, that's bad..bad.

It's unfortunate, but some people here would only care about the rights and freedoms of others if they're of the 'right' political leanings. I've seen the double standards, for sure. Sometimes thinly veiled, other times blatantly so. It's a product of the left/right paradigm. They'll make excuses for people who share some of their political ideologies but tear down those who think differently even if it's irrelevant to the case.

[angelatc]

I think most of these "pro-life" people don't really support it because of their morals. They are just "pro-lfe" because Team Blue isn't. After that baby is born, they wouldn't give a rat's ass if that baby lived or died, or suffered as long as the baby wasn't aborted. That would also explain why those "pro-life" Tea Party folks go around preaching to everyone about the immorality of abortion then in the same breath call for the bombing of other countries where countless innocent civilians (women, children, babies and probably even pregnant women) die. It's just used as a political tool.


The only reason to be pro-life is because of a superior morality. It's certainly not an effective political tool.

Seriously, I'm anti-war and pro-life. Assuming you're anti-war and pro-death-for-babies....who is really the inconsistent one?

[twomp]

The only reason to be pro-life is because of a superior morality. It's certainly not an effective political tool.

Seriously, I'm anti-war and pro-life. Assuming you're anti-war and pro-death-for-babies....who is really the inconsistent one?

LOL love your neg rep. Pretty vile. In any case, I'm neither "pro-life" or "pro-choice." If the government banned abortion, I wouldn't be out in the streets complaining. I wouldn't complain in either circumstance because it doesn't really involve me and I tend not to stick my nose in other peoples business. The same thing can be said of my stance on war. You could say, I'm "anti-war" but I don't really care for it either way as long as it doesn't involve my tax dollars or hurts the people I know. If Russia bombs Ukraine, you won't see me up in arms. Then again, I don't go around trying to tell other people how to be "morally superior."

[angelatc]

LOL love your neg rep. Pretty vile. In any case, I'm neither "pro-life" or "pro-choice." If the government banned abortion, I wouldn't be out in the streets complaining. I wouldn't complain in either circumstance because it doesn't really involve me and I tend not to stick my nose in other peoples business. The same thing can be said of my stance on war. You could say, I'm "anti-war" but I don't really care for it either way as long as it doesn't involve my tax dollars or hurts the people I know. If Russia bombs Ukraine, you won't see me up in arms. Then again, I don't go around trying to tell other people how to be "morally superior."

So then what made you decide to jump into the conversation with the lefty Tea Party / Team Red condescension in the first place? Seems an odd choice for someone who doesn't want to stick his nose in the business of others.

[twomp]

So then what made you decide to jump into the conversation with the lefty Tea Party / Team Red condescension in the first place? Seems an odd choice for someone who doesn't want to stick his nose in the business of others.

I believe this is a forum? We TALK about stuff on a forum and I am participating in this conversation. You act as if I am standing in front of your house with a sign.

[Ender]

So then what made you decide to jump into the conversation with the lefty Tea Party / Team Red condescension in the first place? Seems an odd choice for someone who doesn't want to stick his nose in the business of others.

Be....cause....he's..... the OP........?

[Red Green]

So you value a dog's life over human.

Depends on how you define "human". My dog displays a lot more humanity than a lot of so-called humans. I value humanity. Genetics are another issue.

[Spikender]

This topic has some of the most ridiculous posts I've seen in a long time.

[PaulConventionWV]

Some crimes are unforgivable and they speak to a certain mindset. I'll always root for whatever team is playing against Michael Vick in hopes that Vick ends up with a broken spine. Anyone who can do what Vick did is not a human and in my mind will never be redeemed in my mind.

Fighting dogs gets the death sentence? That's a new one to me. I am not one of those people who goes around flaunting how anti-crime I am. I think all people deserve a second chance. No crime is unforgivable, for by being human, we are susceptible to temptation just as anyone else is, and we don't know how we would react in all situations. We must admit that we could make similar mistakes if the right circumstances occur. To me, saying crimes are unforgivable is posing as superior for the sake of one's ego. I don't think people talk in such absolute terms just because they feel sooo strongly about it. We want to put ourselves on a pedestal sometimes and pat ourselves on the back for being "clean", but I think humility is more of a virtue than righteous indignation.

[Red Green]

Fighting dogs gets the death sentence? That's a new one to me. I am not one of those people who goes around flaunting how anti-crime I am. I think all people deserve a second chance. No crime is unforgivable, for by being human, we are susceptible to temptation just as anyone else is, and we don't know how we would react in all situations. We must admit that we could make similar mistakes if the right circumstances occur. To me, saying crimes are unforgivable is posing as superior for the sake of one's ego. I don't think people talk in such absolute terms just because they feel sooo strongly about it. We want to put ourselves on a pedestal sometimes and pat ourselves on the back for being "clean", but I think humility is more of a virtue than righteous indignation.

If you get off torturing the weak and helpless, yeah that's not a mistake, that's the sign of a psychopath. Giving in to human temptation is an entirely different issue.

[PaulConventionWV]

If you get off torturing the weak and helpless, yeah that's not a mistake, that's the sign of a psychopath. Giving in to human temptation is an entirely different issue.

People can still change. Whether we enjoy it or not is not the issue. The act is what we punish, and I think people can change how they act regardless of how they feel. They can also change how they feel, but really what's important is that we don't try to put ourselves on a pedestal and think crimes are unforgivable just because we or someone we know hasn't done them, as far as we know.

[Red Green]

People can still change. Whether we enjoy it or not is not the issue. The act is what we punish, and I think people can change how they act regardless of how they feel. They can also change how they feel, but really what's important is that we don't try to put ourselves on a pedestal and think crimes are unforgivable just because we or someone we know hasn't done them, as far as we know.

OK well that fucktard is unforgiven in my books and the day his helmet gets knocked off and his head ends up driven into some defenseman's cleat, I'll be there cheering "It's called karma, motherfucker!".

[cajuncocoa]

The views of some in this thread (you probably know who you are) are so heinous, you should be embarrassed....but you're probably not.

[PaulConventionWV]

OK well that fucktard is unforgiven in my books and the day his helmet gets knocked off and his head ends up driven into some defenseman's cleat, I'll be there cheering "It's called karma, motherfucker!".

Good for you. I bet you're just such a great guy.

Dog fighting, of all things...

[Red Green]

Good for you. I bet you're just such a great guy.

Dog fighting, of all things...

You might want to read some of the depositions in that case. It's nice and clean when you say "dog fighting", but what that fucker did is sickening and offers an insight into someone who is quite twisted.

As for some who have their panties in a knot over my glee at the potential for some dirtbag getting his just deserts, I'll just say that while I don't condone violence, I also don't shed a tear when certain types of individuals end up getting some violence thrown their way. You'll never catch me crying over a pig getting shot or beat up, nor will you find me caterwauling over some dirtbag politician meeting an untimely end. I can only hope that the karma train makes regular stops but I am not the one who schedules them.

[Ender]

You might want to read some of the dispositions in that case. It's nice and clean when you say "dog fighting", but what that fucker did is sickening and offers an insight into someone who is quite twisted.

As for some who have their panties in a knot over my glee at the potential for some dirtbag getting his just deserts, I'll just say that while I don't condone violence, I also don't shed a tear when certain types of individuals end up getting some violence thrown their way. You'll never catch me crying over a pig getting shot or beat up, nor will you find me caterwauling over some dirtbag politician meeting an untimely end. I can only hope that the karma train makes regular stops but I am not the one who schedules them.

Just remember the Karma train goes both ways.

ASSuming about others and their unknown past and passing judgements, also goes into the what-goes-around-comes-around law.

[Red Green]

Just remember the Karma train goes both ways.

ASSuming about others and their unknown past and passing judgements, also goes into the what-goes-around-comes-around law.

I have made no assumptions about the man in this particular case, but I am having a hard time feeling a whole lot of sympathy for him because I find it suspicious that the author chose to leave out whatever his crime was. Remember that cop that raped that woman at gunpoint and complained about his 35 year prison sentence? If he gets out in 20 and ends up going back for a parole violation, are you going to get all weepy-eyed over the 'injustice' done? I'm not.

[angelatc]

I believe this is a forum? We TALK about stuff on a forum and I am participating in this conversation. You act as if I am standing in front of your house with a sign.

You came after me, following up on a personal attack (from a mod, no less) bashing me because I'm pro-life, with a condescending explanation of why pro-life people feel the way they do.

It looks to me like you wanted to divert attention away from my point, which is that I, being pro-life and anti-war, am far more consistent than the snobby liberals who sob when a felon has an achy bad knee, but don't hesitate to throw spew their pro-death venom when related financial issues enter the conversation.

That's all I'm saying - that it was an odd place for someone who isn't concerned either way to jump into the conversation.

[Nirvikalpa]

You came after me, following up on a personal attack (from a mod, no less) bashing me because I'm pro-life, with a condescending explanation of why pro-life people feel the way they do.

It looks to me like you wanted to divert attention away from my point, which is that I, being pro-life and anti-war, am far more consistent than the snobby liberals who sob when a felon has an achy bad knee, but don't hesitate to throw spew their pro-death venom when related financial issues enter the conversation.

That's all I'm saying - that it was an odd place for someone who isn't concerned either way to jump into the conversation.

As someone "morally superior" to me, it's amazing how attacked you feel for it.

This will be my last post to Angela in regards to this - I have no desire to continue arguing this one out.

[Philhelm]

I think most of these "pro-life" people don't really support it because of their morals. They are just "pro-lfe" because Team Blue isn't. After that baby is born, they wouldn't give a rat's ass if that baby lived or died, or suffered as long as the baby wasn't aborted. That would also explain why those "pro-life" Tea Party folks go around preaching to everyone about the immorality of abortion then in the same breath call for the bombing of other countries where countless innocent civilians (women, children, babies and probably even pregnant women) die. It's just used as a political tool.

You most greivously mischaracterize the "pro-life" position with such a blanket description. I had posted about this in another thread, but I will repeat myself for your convenience. The "pro-choice" people are cowards of the highest order. So cowardly are they that they slay their unsuspecting offspring within the womb, and they do not have the stomache to face their offspring and feed upon their death-terrors. I have allowed my spouse to birth two daughters, yes, but when they are of such an age that they can defend themselves in armed combat, I shall abort them with my own hands. Staring into their eyes, as the breath of life slowly leaves their mortal bodies, while ensuring that they know why I cannot allow them to live. That is the honorable way.

[twomp]

You most greivously mischaracterize the "pro-life" position with such a blanket description. I had posted about this in another thread, but I will repeat myself for your convenience. The "pro-choice" people are cowards of the highest order. So cowardly are they that they slay their unsuspecting offspring within the womb, and they do not have the stomache to face their offspring and feed upon their death-terrors. I have allowed my spouse to birth two daughters, yes, but when they are of such an age that they can defend themselves in armed combat, I shall abort them with my own hands. Staring into their eyes, as the breath of life slowly leaves their mortal bodies, while ensuring that they know why I cannot allow them to live. That is the honorable way.

LMAO!!! Okay there tough guy!!

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/2f/2f94fe5da679ea95cff6162f8fc44932b7a57d9ebbb6b7c951 2405a68402bef7.jpg

[Philhelm]

LMAO!!! Okay there tough guy!!

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/2f/2f94fe5da679ea95cff6162f8fc44932b7a57d9ebbb6b7c951 2405a68402bef7.jpg

You're only supposed to use the Internet Tough Guy meme if somebody on the Internet threatens to kick your ass.

[twomp]

You're only supposed to use the Internet Tough Guy meme if somebody on the Internet threatens to kick your ass.

Or if they talk about choking the life out of their daughters in order to prove some sort of point hahahah

[Philhelm]

Or if they talk about choking the life out of their daughters in order to prove some sort of point hahahah

I was just stating that I support fourth trimester abortion, but that any abortion at any earlier stage of the child's development is murder. At this point, I am content to merely practice for the abortion when they cry loudly.

[PaulConventionWV]

You might want to read some of the depositions in that case. It's nice and clean when you say "dog fighting", but what that fucker did is sickening and offers an insight into someone who is quite twisted.

As for some who have their panties in a knot over my glee at the potential for some dirtbag getting his just deserts, I'll just say that while I don't condone violence, I also don't shed a tear when certain types of individuals end up getting some violence thrown their way. You'll never catch me crying over a pig getting shot or beat up, nor will you find me caterwauling over some dirtbag politician meeting an untimely end. I can only hope that the karma train makes regular stops but I am not the one who schedules them.

Who has their panties in a bunch? Like I said, I'm sure you're a great guy. Just as great as you make yourself out to be by contrast.

[PaulConventionWV]

You're only supposed to use the Internet Tough Guy meme if somebody on the Internet threatens to kick your ass.

Oh, tough guy, huh?

[Red Green]

Who has their panties in a bunch? Like I said, I'm sure you're a great guy. Just as great as you make yourself out to be by contrast.


I was specifically addressing some of the people who seem to be flabbergasted that I would suggest I would like to see Vick get a career-ending injury.

But hey, you can forgive psychopaths. That's awesome and really, really progressive of you. I mean, warm-hearted and mushy kind of stuff. It make a great soundbite. Here's the thing though: psychopaths don't really care if you forgive them. They don't really care if you like them or not. Forgiving a psychopath is like handing a bicycle to a fish. But you know, if it makes you feel good, do it. For me, I just can't help myself and dream of a day when douchebags like Vick get it good and hard. I guess I'm just less, oh how to say it, Christian that way when compared to you.

[PaulConventionWV]

I was specifically addressing some of the people who seem to be flabbergasted that I would suggest I would like to see Vick get a career-ending injury.

But hey, you can forgive psychopaths. That's awesome and really, really progressive of you. I mean, warm-hearted and mushy kind of stuff. It make a great soundbite. Here's the thing though: psychopaths don't really care if you forgive them. They don't really care if you like them or not. Forgiving a psychopath is like handing a bicycle to a fish. But you know, if it makes you feel good, do it. For me, I just can't help myself and dream of a day when douchebags like Vick get it good and hard. I guess I'm just less, oh how to say it, Christian that way when compared to you.

Let me put it this way, I see declaring crimes as unforgivable about the same as going out of your way to declare that you are "so not gay." Not that I am expressing a particular position on gays, it's just a widely recognized example of a comment made out of insecurity rather than conviction.

[Christopher A. Brown]

My God. I'm absolutely appalled at some's feelings in here. So vindictive and downright venomous, just because of political leaning or because of time spent behind bars? This man gave his pound of flesh, yet he'll die in prison because he allegedly had ingested plant material? It's just heinous beyond measure to do that to someone. But some here have not an ounce of compassion for this man or his family, that's bad..bad.

Yes, I've noticed that. Like we are being conditioned to accept injustice and abuse within a social situation here online. I think a good test is to see who will unconditionally embrace solution. The constitution if it can be enforced is solution.

I've not found any one here yet that unconditionally supports the 1787 constitution. And the solution I propose is so logical an so lawful it is unopposed.

By logically exercising our first constitutional right, to "alter or abolish" We can execute the first action, clean up states.

http://algoxy.com/poly/principal_party.html

A step by step process in a forum which stands un opposed because it is fully lawful and logical.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444637-Georgia-House-approves-Article-V-convention&p=5433668&viewfull=1#post5433668

[Danke]

I was specifically addressing some of the people who seem to be flabbergasted that I would suggest I would like to see Vick get a career-ending injury.

But hey, you can forgive psychopaths. That's awesome and really, really progressive of you. I mean, warm-hearted and mushy kind of stuff. It make a great soundbite. Here's the thing though: psychopaths don't really care if you forgive them. They don't really care if you like them or not. Forgiving a psychopath is like handing a bicycle to a fish. But you know, if it makes you feel good, do it. For me, I just can't help myself and dream of a day when douchebags like Vick get it good and hard. I guess I'm just less, oh how to say it, Christian that way when compared to you.

"panties in a bunch" What an idiotic statement.

I really don't care how someone treats an animal. If fact I eat them.

Jail time? Get real.

Panties, really?

[klamath]

First off if he was on parole he HASN'T "paid for his crime", he is still paying as he got out before the end of his sentence if he followed the terms of the parole. Whether he was justly convicted or not is a separate issue.
Torture is never right whether it is a parolee, a judge that was wrongly convicting youth for profit or killing and raping the children of a cop that beat to death a homeless man.
I notice people around here pick and chose when to do a 180 on morality.

[Red Green]

Let me put it this way, I see declaring crimes as unforgivable about the same as going out of your way to declare that you are "so not gay." Not that I am expressing a particular position on gays, it's just a widely recognized example of a comment made out of insecurity rather than conviction.

Sounds like a lot of projection to me. I am not insecure about how I view interaction with those around us. If anything, you are.

There is a gulf of difference between your run-of-the-mill asshole and a psychopath. You seem to have a hard time understanding that.

[Red Green]

"panties in a bunch" What an idiotic statement.

I really don't care how someone treats an animal. If fact I eat them.

Jail time? Get real.

Panties, really?

Sorry, you sound like you have a yeast infection. Go flush.

[twomp]

I was just stating that I support fourth trimester abortion, but that any abortion at any earlier stage of the child's development is murder. At this point, I am content to merely practice for the abortion when they cry loudly.

Oh please, what a bunch of crock shit. You were just trying to show off your internet "machismo", as if murdering someone when they are in the womb or if they are 20 years old is any different. Murder is murder. But go ahead and try to prove how macho you are and how you would personally "abort" someone as if it made any difference. It's the same as "pro-life" people saying they don't care if someone dies because of their political beliefs. Life only matters if they pass some sort of "threshold" (whether it be age, political beliefs, or past actions) you put on it before or after that, life doesn't matter to them. It has to meet some sort of criteria for them to be "pro-life" or else they don't give a shit about "life."

[PaulConventionWV]

LOL love your neg rep. Pretty vile. In any case, I'm neither "pro-life" or "pro-choice." If the government banned abortion, I wouldn't be out in the streets complaining. I wouldn't complain in either circumstance because it doesn't really involve me and I tend not to stick my nose in other peoples business. The same thing can be said of my stance on war. You could say, I'm "anti-war" but I don't really care for it either way as long as it doesn't involve my tax dollars or hurts the people I know. If Russia bombs Ukraine, you won't see me up in arms. Then again, I don't go around trying to tell other people how to be "morally superior."

Angelatc is known for being one of the most vile, vicious posters on this board, of all time. It's pretty bad. In fact, she loves to run away from arguments and not answer questions, too, especially when it comes to scientific topics.

Hey, I calls it like I sees it.

[PaulConventionWV]

Depends on how you define "human". My dog displays a lot more humanity than a lot of so-called humans. I value humanity. Genetics are another issue.

I will never understand dog-worshippers. It's like they don't care about other animals, but when it comes to dogs, they're closer to human for some reason. I got news, buddy, those beady little cutesy eyes are a survival instinct. They're so eager to please you because they want you to take care of them. It's a survival instinct, not real emotion.

[PaulConventionWV]

Sounds like a lot of projection to me. I am not insecure about how I view interaction with those around us. If anything, you are.

There is a gulf of difference between your run-of-the-mill asshole and a psychopath. You seem to have a hard time understanding that.

What is the difference, legally? Should we punish psychopaths differently than normal people who just couldn't help themselves? How, pray tell?

[Red Green]

What is the difference, legally? Should we punish psychopaths differently than normal people who just couldn't help themselves? How, pray tell?

Legally, there is no difference. But a reasonable person should be able to discern that just because someone is a little harsh, lacks good judgement and occasionally gives into normal human temptation that does not equate them to a cold-hearted psychopath. Yeah, people who f-up can redeem themselves, but not psychopaths.

Look at it this way: a kiddie-diddler will always be attracted to kiddies. When a guy gets out for molesting the 5yo next door, you don't say "well he served his time!" and then let him work at a day care. He's always a kiddie-diddler and you have to treat him as such.

People who torture dogs for fun are the same sort of people who will do things to other weak and needy creatures, including people, just because they can.

You can forgive someone like Vick all you want. You can forgive the cop-rapist when he gets out of prison in 20 years or whatever if you want. I'm not stupid enough to think that those people change because that's who they are. They might exercise more self-control, but at the heart of it, they're evil people and I just don't like evil people and I don't feel bad when bad things happen to evil people.

[Red Green]

I will never understand dog-worshippers. It's like they don't care about other animals, but when it comes to dogs, they're closer to human for some reason. I got news, buddy, those beady little cutesy eyes are a survival instinct. They're so eager to please you because they want you to take care of them. It's a survival instinct, not real emotion.

Well, so much misinformation here it's hard to know where to start.

First off, dogs have a bond with humans because for hundreds of years we have bred them to be as much like us as possible. And all animals have survival instinct, so I don't see what that has to do with anything. And yes, dogs have real emotional lives. It's been studied by researchers, but any dog owner can tell you that dogs 'feel' the same range of emotions that humans do. Basically having a bright dog is like having a 2yo in the house. They have about the same mental capacity.

Now, Danke does not care about any other species but his own apparently. That strikes me as lacking in empathy, which is generally one of the characteristics that is supposed to separate humans from the rest of the animal world (although it now seems that empathy is not entirely unique to humans among animals). Buddhist generally make no distinction when it comes to life. How you treat a house fly is the same as how you treat your next door neighbor. Apparently Danke thinks a good number of Buddhists are a bunch of idiots. I don't go as far as those Buddhist traditions, but I would never mock them because I see the value in that viewpoint, much more than I see any value in Danke's knuckle-dragging narrow viewpoint.

[Danke]

Well, so much misinformation here it's hard to know where to start.

First off, dogs have a bond with humans because for hundreds of years we have bred them to be as much like us as possible. And all animals have survival instinct, so I don't see what that has to do with anything. And yes, dogs have real emotional lives. It's been studied by researchers, but any dog owner can tell you that dogs 'feel' the same range of emotions that humans do. Basically having a bright dog is like having a 2yo in the house. They have about the same mental capacity.

Now, Danke does not care about any other species but his own apparently. That strikes me as lacking in empathy, which is generally one of the characteristics that is supposed to separate humans from the rest of the animal world (although it now seems that empathy is not entirely unique to humans among animals). Buddhist generally make no distinction when it comes to life. How you treat a house fly is the same as how you treat your next door neighbor. Apparently Danke thinks a good number of Buddhists are a bunch of idiots. I don't go as far as those Buddhist traditions, but I would never mock them because I see the value in that viewpoint, much more than I see any value in Danke's knuckle-dragging narrow viewpoint.

http://takeinsocialmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/crying-girl-pictures-images-photos-0219233857.jpg

[Red Green]

Hey Danke, are you a cop? Because from my vantage point, you would make a really good puppy-killer.

[Philhelm]

Oh please, what a bunch of crock shit. You were just trying to show off your internet "machismo", as if murdering someone when they are in the womb or if they are 20 years old is any different. Murder is murder. But go ahead and try to prove how macho you are and how you would personally "abort" someone as if it made any difference. It's the same as "pro-life" people saying they don't care if someone dies because of their political beliefs. Life only matters if they pass some sort of "threshold" (whether it be age, political beliefs, or past actions) you put on it before or after that, life doesn't matter to them. It has to meet some sort of criteria for them to be "pro-life" or else they don't give a shit about "life."

You obviously didn't understand my post. Machismo had nothing to do with it.

I give myself a Troll/10.