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angelatc
04-29-2014, 09:42 PM
Those tolerant liberals again....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/28/hugo-awards-science-fiction-reading-politics-larry-correia-column/8282843/


The Hugo is one of the oldest and most prestigious awards in science fiction, but in recent years critics have accused the award process — and much of science fiction fandom itself — of becoming politicized.

That's certainly been the experience of Larry Correia (http://monsterhunternation.com/about/), who was nominated (http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/04/announcing-the-2014-hugo-award-nominees) for a Hugo this year. Correia, the author of numerous highly successful science fiction books like Monster Hunter International (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1439132852/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=1439132852&link_code=as3&tag=insta0c-20)and Hard Magic (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1451638248/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=1451638248&link_code=as3&tag=insta0c-20), is getting a lot of flak because he's a right-leaning libertarian. Makes you wonder if Robert Heinlein could get a Hugo Award today. (Answer: Probably not (http://accordingtohoyt.com/2014/02/02/to-fear-a-painted-devil/).)


Here's how Correia, writing on his blog (http://monsterhunternation.com/2014/04/24/an-explanation-about-the-hugo-awards-controversy/), characterizes what's happened since he was nominated:


The libel and slander over the last few days have been so ridiculous that my wife was contacted by people she hasn't talked to for years, concerned that she was married to such a horrible, awful, hateful, bad person, and that they were worried for her safety. I wish I was exaggerating. Don't take my word for it. My readers have been collecting a lot of them in the comments of the previous Hugo post and on my Facebook page. Plug my name into Google for the last few days. Make sure to read the comments to the various articles, too. They're fantastic. ... I've said for a long time that the awards are biased against authors because of their personal beliefs. Authors can either cheerlead for left-wing causes, or they can keep their mouth shut. Open disagreement is not tolerated and will result in being sabotaged and slandered. Message or identity politics has become far more important than entertainment or quality. I was attacked for saying this. I knew that when an admitted right winger got in they would be maligned and politicked against, not for the quality of their art but rather for their unacceptable beliefs.


More at the links above, and here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/28/hugo-awards-science-fiction-reading-politics-larry-correia-column/8282843/

Ender
04-29-2014, 10:11 PM
Those tolerant liberals again....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/28/hugo-awards-science-fiction-reading-politics-larry-correia-column/8282843/



More at the links above, and here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/28/hugo-awards-science-fiction-reading-politics-larry-correia-column/8282843/

Heinlein won 3 Hugos in the 60's; Orson Scott Card won 2 in the 80's- terrible right wing libertarian types. :rolleyes:

Origanalist
04-30-2014, 11:12 AM
Heinlein won 3 Hugos in the 60's; Orson Scott Card won 2 in the 80's- terrible right wing libertarian types. :rolleyes:

Did you miss the first line in the OP?

Ender
04-30-2014, 11:15 AM
Did you miss the first line in the OP?

No, I did not- I was clarifying the point.

Heinlein's my favorite sci-fi writer.

Origanalist
04-30-2014, 11:20 AM
No, I did not- I was clarifying the point.

Heinlein's my favorite sci-fi writer.

I misunderstood your post. Screen name-derp. :o

GunnyFreedom
04-30-2014, 11:21 AM
There are always the Prometheus Awards. :)

Ronin Truth
04-30-2014, 11:24 AM
Heinlein won 3 Hugos in the 60's; Orson Scott Card won 2 in the 80's- terrible right wing libertarian types. :rolleyes: I consider Heinlein a libertarian that didn't know/acknowledge he was one. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", most libertarian.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

helmuth_hubener
04-30-2014, 12:18 PM
Orson Scott Card won 2 in the 80's- terrible right wing libertarian types. :rolleyes: Orson Scott Card is in no way right-wing nor libertarian. Believe me. You can ask him and he'd tell you the same thing.

He got some flak for standing up for his church's stance on gay marriage. That is, for actually believing in his religion. But generally, he is for wealth distribution and all kinds of leftist things and believes that LDS church membership in general is completely wrong and missing the boat by being so predominantly Republican.

helmuth_hubener
04-30-2014, 12:24 PM
I consider Heinlein a libertarian that didn't know/acknowledge he was one. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", most libertarian.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." -- Robert Heinlein

Heinlein wrote many libertarian or libertarian-ish books. His writings are a cultural treasure for libertarianism. Whether he personally was actually libertarian is unclear.

His political opinions appear to change and vary over the years and seem, more than anything, to have to do with who he was married to at the time.

A similar situation exists with the contemporary writer Neal Stephenson. He has written some books with highly libertarian societies and themes -- Snowcrash and The Diamond Age in particular. But is he personally a libertarian? I don't think he is. He just went to the trouble to learn and understand our ideas, found them fascinating, and figured he'd write about them.

Brian4Liberty
04-30-2014, 12:38 PM
Perhaps this is a deviation from the intent of this thread, but it brings to mind the following...

Asimov's Foundation books reflected the blueprints for much of what happens politically in the world today. No doubt it was what Asimov was exposed to at the time. The long term plans were being discussed. Some of the points:

- A galactic empire is desirable (analogy for global empire).
- Manipulate and control others via false religion (co-opt and twist religion).
- Manipulate and control via "trade" (analogy for today's global trade agreements, global banking, economic hitmen, etc.).
- This rule to be managed by an elite "in the know" group. (Analogy, top ten percent, First Foundation leaders).
- The whole thing is controlled by an even more elite and secret group, who are master manipulators (Second Foundation).

One opinion on the origins of the concepts in the books:


Many of Asimov’s readers have in fact suggested that Marx was one of the major influences on psychohistory. However, Marx’s historical materialism bears little resemblance to Asimov’s conception. Seldon’s system appears to include far more than the purely economic factors Marx would allow—with the second crisis leading to the establishment of what amounts to a religion. What is far more important, though, is that Marx pictures a clear, evolutionary progress, each stage representing a more advanced society than the last, whereas Hari Seldon’s science predicts not a progression, but the cyclic rise and fall of civilizations—both development and decay. Psychohistory more closely resembles the work of a handful of 20th-century thinkers who dared to reject the standard, evolutionary view of society: most notably, Oswald Spengler, Arnold Toynbee, and Pitirim Sorokin.

http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/cole_11_12/

Praise for Foundation from Paul Krugman:


Paul Krugman: Asimov's Foundation novels grounded my economics
The fantastical tale offers a still-inspiring dream of a social science that could save civilisation

There are certain novels that can shape a teenage boy's life. For some, it's Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged; for others it's Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. As a widely quoted internet meme says, the unrealistic fantasy world portrayed in one of those books can warp a young man's character forever; the other book is about orcs. But for me, of course, it was neither. My Book – the one that has stayed with me for four-and-a-half decades – is Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy, written when Asimov was barely out of his teens himself. I didn't grow up wanting to be a square-jawed individualist or join a heroic quest; I grew up wanting to be Hari Seldon, using my understanding of the mathematics of human behaviour to save civilisation.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/dec/04/paul-krugman-asimov-economics

Ronin Truth
04-30-2014, 12:54 PM
Heinlein wrote many libertarian or libertarian-ish books. His writings are a cultural treasure for libertarianism. Whether he personally was actually libertarian is unclear.

His political opinions appear to change and vary over the years and seem, more than anything, to have to do with who he was married to at the time.

A similar situation exists with the contemporary writer Neal Stephenson. He has written some books with highly libertarian societies and themes -- Snowcrash and The Diamond Age in particular. But is he personally a libertarian? I don't think he is. He just went to the trouble to learn and understand our ideas, found them fascinating, and figured he'd write about them.


Some, such as Brian Doherty (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Brian_Doherty_(journalist)), claim that Robert LeFevre's movement was a basis for Robert A. Heinlein (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein)'s book The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/The_Moon_Is_a_Harsh_Mistress), and that LeFevre was the basis for the character Professor Bernardo de la Paz, organizer of the Lunar revolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_LeFevre

LeFevre was my original libertarian mentor back in the early 70's.

Ender
04-30-2014, 12:55 PM
Orson Scott Card is in no way right-wing nor libertarian. Believe me. You can ask him and he'd tell you the same thing.

He got some flak for standing up for his church's stance on gay marriage. That is, for actually believing in his religion. But generally, he is for wealth distribution and all kinds of leftist things and believes that LDS church membership in general is completely wrong and missing the boat by being so predominantly Republican.

Read any of his books?

Ronin Truth
04-30-2014, 01:08 PM
Lester Neil Smith III (born May 12, 1946), better known as L. Neil Smith, is a libertarian (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Libertarianism) science fiction author and political activist. His works include the trilogy of Lando Calrissian (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Lando_Calrissian) novels: Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharu (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Lando_Calrissian_and_the_Mindharp_of_Sharu) (1983), Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Lando_Calrissian_and_the_Flamewind_of_Oseon) (1983), Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of ThonBoka (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Lando_Calrissian_and_the_Starcave_of_ThonBoka) (1983), and the Omnibus edition The Lando Calrissian Adventures (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Lando_Calrissian). He also wrote the novels Pallas, The Forge of the Elders, and The Probability Broach (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/The_Probability_Broach), each of which won the Libertarian Futurist Society (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Libertarian_Futurist_Society)'s annual Prometheus Award (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Prometheus_Award) for best libertarian science fiction (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/wiki/Libertarian_science_fiction) novel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Neil_Smith

helmuth_hubener
04-30-2014, 01:38 PM
Read any of his books? Yes. I also was active years ago on a forum he runs. I also have read articles he has written editorializing on various political opinions he has. He is a Democrat (see, for instance: http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2011-10-06.shtml ). He is very much in favor of wealth redistribution. He is pro-war. He is skeptical of global warming. In other words, his opinions are a grab-bag. He would probably consider himself an independent-minded centrist.

Here is a good taste of his political views:

http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/print_friendly.cgi?page=/osc/articles/empire_afterword.shtml

angelatc
04-30-2014, 01:58 PM
No, I did not- I was clarifying the point.

Heinlein's my favorite sci-fi writer.

Let me clarify a point I often make. Maybe we should ALL read the material actually at the links before deciding we're the smartest people in the room and being incredibly and instantly dismissive.

Both authors clearly discuss the fact that this is symptomatic of the politicalization of EVERYTHING. They feel that things are far more polarized than they were even 30 years ago. I happen to agree, which is why I posted the snippet.

Here's the very first paragraph of one of those two pieces:


There was a time when science fiction was a place to explore new ideas, free of the conventional wisdom of staid, “mundane” society, a place where speculation replaced group think, and where writers as different as libertarian-leaning Robert Heinlein, and left-leaning Isaac Asimov and Arthur Clarke would share readers, magazines, and conventions.

otherone
04-30-2014, 02:21 PM
Let me clarify a point I often make. Maybe we should ALL read the material actually at the links before deciding we're the smartest people in the room and being incredibly and instantly dismissive.


yeah.
I didn't read any of the stuff at the links, but it seems there are quite a few movies about dystopian societies in theaters these days...

please don't yell at me

helmuth_hubener
04-30-2014, 02:23 PM
LeFevre was my original libertarian mentor back in the early 70's.
That's cool! I love LeFevre (L. Neil's mentor too, as you know). I was aware that Robert was the model for la Paz, of course.

2young2vote
04-30-2014, 02:32 PM
It is true that science fiction is often politically motivated. A good science fiction author will look at the reality of world of philosophy, morality, and politics, and incorporate them plausible and realistically into their novels.

A fantastic example is Peter F. Hamilton. I'm currently reading The Great North Road (3/4 done), a very good science fiction detective mystery with lots of exploration and wonders. He does an excellent job of describing the intermingling relationship between government and corporations, often showing that corporations are much more efficient and capable than government, but only because they lack a moral compass. He does an excellent job of making all the entities in his stories morally gray, which is great because that means no one group of people is going to feel like they are being bashed on the head with claims that their beliefs are inferior to the author's.

Ender
04-30-2014, 02:59 PM
Let me clarify a point I often make. Maybe we should ALL read the material actually at the links before deciding we're the smartest people in the room and being incredibly and instantly dismissive.

Both authors clearly discuss the fact that this is symptomatic of the politicalization of EVERYTHING. They feel that things are far more polarized than they were even 30 years ago. I happen to agree, which is why I posted the snippet.

Here's the very first paragraph of one of those two pieces:

Sorry for the misunderstanding- I was agreeing with you- my remark was sarcasm against the polarization.

Unfortunately, you can't hear voices on the net, or you would have known that. ;)

GunnyFreedom
04-30-2014, 03:16 PM
Perhaps this is a deviation from the intent of this thread, but it brings to mind the following...

Asimov's Foundation books reflected the blueprints for much of what happens politically in the world today. No doubt it was what Asimov was exposed to at the time. The long term plans were being discussed. Some of the points:

- A galactic empire is desirable (analogy for global empire).
- Manipulate and control others via false religion (co-opt and twist religion).
- Manipulate and control via "trade" (analogy for today's global trade agreements, global banking, economic hitmen, etc.).
- This rule to be managed by an elite "in the know" group. (Analogy, top ten percent, First Foundation leaders).
- The whole thing is controlled by an even more elite and secret group, who are master manipulators (Second Foundation).

One opinion on the origins of the concepts in the books:



Praise for Foundation from Paul Krugman:

Actually, Isaac Asimov himself when he was still around, said that the Foundation series was actually the history of the Roman Empire cast in space with science fictiony decorations. It should be no surprise then that many of the themes recur today.

Ronin Truth
04-30-2014, 03:23 PM
That's cool! I love LeFevre (L. Neil's mentor too, as you know). I was aware that Robert was the model for la Paz, of course. I believe Neil and I may have attended the same LeFevre seminar in Wichita, KS.

thoughtomator
04-30-2014, 03:55 PM
A writer who can write good libertarian material must necessarily be a libertarian, as no one who is intelligent and studious enough to understand the philosophy fails to take it up as their own. Libertarian is a creed that once you get it, there is no going back, like taking the red pill.

Brian4Liberty
04-30-2014, 04:08 PM
Actually, Isaac Asimov himself when he was still around, said that the Foundation series was actually the history of the Roman Empire cast in space with science fictiony decorations. It should be no surprise then that many of the themes recur today.

Of course. That was part of the influence for the series. But there is certainly quite a few other influences as well. There was an actual "Foundation" that had meetings that Asimov attended. Early UN, global utopia, controlling the ignorant masses kind of things. Wish I could remember the actual name and details, and my Google-fu has failed.

angelatc
04-30-2014, 05:07 PM
yeah.
I didn't read any of the stuff at the links, but it seems there are quite a few movies about dystopian societies in theaters these days...

please don't yell at me


Sorry for the misunderstanding- I was agreeing with you- my remark was sarcasm against the polarization.

Unfortunately, you can't hear voices on the net, or you would have known that. ;)

I actually used the words "we" because I freely admit I'm just as guilty of it as anybody else I could single out. Usually I post a response, then go read the article, then come back and make the correction.

helmuth_hubener
04-30-2014, 05:35 PM
A writer who can write good libertarian material must necessarily be a libertarian, as no one who is intelligent and studious enough to understand the philosophy fails to take it up as their own. Libertarian is a creed that once you get it, there is no going back, like taking the red pill.

I don't know. Snow Crash and The Diamond Age were really good, but I'm pretty sure Stephenson is pretty conventional politically, to the extent he has any political beliefs at all.

GunnyFreedom
04-30-2014, 06:04 PM
Of course. That was part of the influence for the series. But there is certainly quite a few other influences as well. There was an actual "Foundation" that had meetings that Asimov attended. Early UN, global utopia, controlling the ignorant masses kind of things. Wish I could remember the actual name and details, and my Google-fu has failed.

LOL well, the guy was born in the USSR and smuggled out in a suitcase...

helmuth_hubener
05-02-2014, 09:35 AM
Read any of his books?

So what do you say, Ender? Any thoughts you'd like to share? Do you have some particular books and particular elements in said books that led you to believe he was libertarian or right-wing?

Ender
05-02-2014, 02:43 PM
So what do you say, Ender? Any thoughts you'd like to share? Do you have some particular books and particular elements in said books that led you to believe he was libertarian or right-wing?

Ender's Game Series- sci-fi- the first book is an amazing prediction of the use of drones.
Ender's Shadow Series- sci-fi- basically conquering the hegemony.
The Alvin Maker Series- fantasy- alternative history of America

helmuth_hubener
05-02-2014, 07:11 PM
Ender's Game Series- sci-fi- the first book is an amazing prediction of the use of drones. Huh? Where were the... oh, I get it. Keep in mind, though, that the kids weren't directly controlling them exactly. It wasn't robotic, like drones are. There were commanders and crew on the other end. They just followed the kid's orders, and perhaps could have possibly disobeyed.

Also, it's not as if Card was giving us any kind of anti-drone message. I'd imagine Card is probably all for drones, just as he's in general all for war on terror and being tough on bad guys.


Ender's Shadow Series- sci-fi- basically conquering the hegemony. I liked the first one, but never got into the rest.


The Alvin Maker Series- fantasy- alternative history of America But... a particularly right-wing one? Or libertarian?

Inkblots
05-02-2014, 07:24 PM
A similar situation exists with the contemporary writer Neal Stephenson. He has written some books with highly libertarian societies and themes -- Snowcrash and The Diamond Age in particular. But is he personally a libertarian? I don't think he is. He just went to the trouble to learn and understand our ideas, found them fascinating, and figured he'd write about them.

That's accurate, Stephenson is no libertarian. But you're right on about some of his books. The Diamond Age is probably my favorite work of contemporary science fiction. Fabulous stuff.

Ender
05-02-2014, 07:35 PM
Huh? Where were the... oh, I get it. Keep in mind, though, that the kids weren't directly controlling them exactly. It wasn't robotic, like drones are. There were commanders and crew on the other end. They just followed the kid's orders, and perhaps could have possibly disobeyed.

Also, it's not as if Card was giving us any kind of anti-drone message. I'd imagine Card is probably all for drones, just as he's in general all for war on terror and being tough on bad guys.

I liked the first one, but never got into the rest.

But... a particularly right-wing one? Or libertarian?

Did you actually read Ender's Game?

The kids didn't know there were real people in the ships, or buggers- and neither does the reader- until the end. Ender is horrified when he finds out what he has done, not only to the humans but to the buggers as well. He spends the rest of his life making up for that.

I do not think that is pro-drone. And the Shadow books are definitely anti-empire books.

Aratus
05-04-2014, 03:15 AM
agreed, all is going like a classic computer game until by almost a sixth sense..
he feels an inter-species almost human empathy to a psychic wave of pain...

idiom
05-04-2014, 04:58 AM
Snowcrash read as an excellent critique of Libertarian failings and strengths I thought. It presented a libertarian planet as a massive dystopia.

The hardcore space crowd tends to divide into the extremely pro-government (Pro-Nasa people) and the extremely anti-government (Alt-Space). There is not a lot of ground in between.

Occam's Banana
05-04-2014, 02:26 PM
I am not surprised by this. SF used to be almost universally regarded (or even reviled) as unserious, popular trash. No one who was "serious" gave a damn about the field - and as a result it was left alone to organically develop & thrive without interference from or contamination by "establishmentarian" concerns (and certainly not those of the literary, critical or cultural academic establishment). I have always thought that the increasing "respectability" of science fiction (especially among academics) was something of a "Greek gift" - or a case of "be careful what you wish for ..." And the OP story reveals why. (But as Eric Raymond says in the essay below, "Ideological fashions come and go, inevitably rediscovers itself afterwards as a literature of freedom.")

Anyway, for those interested in the intersection of politics and science fiction, here is an interesting read:

[B]A Political History of SF
http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/sf-history.html
Eric S. Raymond (2002-2007)



The history of modern SF is one of five attempted revolutions — one success and four enriching failures. I'm going to offer you a look at them from an unusual angle, a political one. This turns out to be useful perspective because more of the history of SF than one might expect is intertwined with political questions, and SF had an important role in giving birth to at least one distinct political ideology that is alive and important today.

[...]

The new hard SF of the 1980s returned to Golden Age themes and images, if not quite with the linear simplicity of Golden Age technique. It also reverted to the anti-political/individualist values traditional in the field. This time around, with explicit libertarianism a feature of the political landscape, the split between order-worshiping conservatism and the individualist impulse was more marked. At one extreme, some SF (such as that of L. Neil Smith) assumed the character of radical libertarian propaganda. At the other extreme, a subgenre of SF that could fairly be described as conservative/militarist power fantasies emerged, notably in the writing of Jerry Pournelle and David Drake.

Tension between these groups sometimes flared into public animosity. Both laid claims to Robert Heinlein's legacy. Heinlein himself (increasingly erratic as a writer but still the Grand Old Man of the field, immensely respected by fans and even more by other authors) maintained friendly relationships with conservatives but described himself as a libertarian for more than a decade before his death in 1988.

[...]

In 1994, critical thinking within the SF field belatedly caught up with reality. Credit for this goes to David Hartwell and Kathryn Cramer, whose analysis in the anthology The Ascent of Wonder finally acknowledged what should have been obvious all along. Hard SF is the vital heart of the field, the radiant core from which ideas and prototype worlds diffuse outwards to be appropriated by writers of lesser world-building skill but perhaps greater stylistic and literary sophistication. While there are other modes of SF that have their place, they remain essentially derivations of or reactions against hard SF, and cannot even be properly understood without reference to its tropes, conventions, and imagery.

Furthermore, Gregory Benford's essay in The Ascent of Wonder on the meaning of SF offered a characterization of the genre which may well prove final. He located the core of SF in the experience of "sense of wonder", not merely as a thalamic thrill but as the affirmation that the universe has a knowable order that is discoverable through reason and science.

[...]

SF is a radial category in which the prototypes are certain classics of hard SF. This is true whether you are mapping individual works by affinity or subgenres like space opera, technology-of-magic story, utopian/dystopian extrapolation, etc. So in discussing the traits of SF as a whole, the relevant question is not "which traits are universal" but "which traits are strongly bound" — or, almost equivalently, "what are the shared traits of most of the core (hard-SF) prototypes".

[B]The strong binding between hard SF and libertarian politics continues to be a fact of life in the field. It it is telling that the only form of politically-inspired award presented annually at the World Science Fiction Convention is the Libertarian Futurist Society's "Prometheus". There is no socialist, liberal, moderate, conservative or fascist equivalent of the class of libertarian SF writers including L. Neil Smith, F. Paul Wilson, Brad Linaweaver, or J. Neil Schulman; their books, even when they are shrill and indifferently-written polemical tracts, actually sell — and sell astonishingly well — to SF fans.

Of course, there are people in the SF field who find this deeply uncomfortable. Since the centrality of hard SF has become inescapable, resistance now takes the form of attempts to divorce hard SF from libertarianism — to preserve the methods and conceptual apparatus of hard SF while repudiating its political aura. Hartwell & Kramer's 2002 followup to The Ascent of Wonder, The Hard SF Renaissance, takes up this argument in its introduction and explanatory notes.

The Hard SF Renaissance presents itself as a dialogue between old-school Campbellian hard SF and an attempt to construct a "Radical Hard SF" that is not in thrall to right-wing tendencies. It is clear that the editors' sympathies lie with the "Radicals", not least from the very fact that they identify libertarianism as a right-wing phenomenon. This is an error characteristic of left-leaning thinkers, who tend to assume that anything not "left" is "right" and that approving of free markets somehow implies social conservatism.

Is the "Radical Hard SF" program possible? Partly this is a matter of definition. I have already shown that the SF genre cannot be culturally or politically conservative; by nature it must be prepared to contemplate — and implicitly advocate — radical change. So either the partisans of "Radical Hard SF" are just terminally confused, pushing against an open door, or what they really object to is hard SF's libertarian connection.

It's worth asking, then: is the intimate historical relationship between libertarian political thought and SF a mere accident, or is there an intrinsic connection? And not worth asking merely as a question about politics, either; we'll understand SF and its history better if we know the answer.

I think I know what John Campbell's answer would be, if he had not died the year that the founders of modern libertarianism broke with conservatism. I know what Robert Heinlein's was. They're the same as mine, a resounding yes — that there is a connection, and that the connection is indeed deep and intrinsic. But cultural history is littered with the corpses of zealots who attempted to yoke art to ideology with shallow arguments, only to be exposed as fools when the art became obsolescent before the ideology or (more often) vice-versa.

In the remainder of this essay I will nevertheless attempt to prove this point. My argument will center around the implications of a concept best known from First Amendment law: the "marketplace of ideas". I am going to argue specifically from the characteristics of hard SF, the prototypes of the radial category of SF. I'll use this argument to try to illuminate the central values of SF as a literature, and to explain the large historical pattern of failed revolutions against the Campbellian model.

[... more at link: http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/sf-history.html ...]

DamianTV
05-04-2014, 05:30 PM
Govt: You need us to create 'good science' and protect you from 'bad science' because you mundanes can not possibly do these things yourselves.

Read: Suspension of Disbelief

"Look at how scary and dangerous all these things in the world are. Aliens. Terminators. Meteors. Terrorists. Kidnappers. Boogeymen. Govt will protect you."

The message behind Sci Fi is nothing more than saying a technology that might exist. We know to not believe many things in Sci Fi. But the other messages are far too nefarious. You need to be dependant on someone else to protect you from all these possible bad things. And that is what people truly start to believe.

Just like Cop Dramas. Theres a murder, ooh, scary. Let the Cops protect you. Too believable. What happens in fictional court rooms and on the streets becomes reality for far too many when they suspend their disbelief that its just a bunch of people on a set with some cameras. Sometimes intersting to watch, but as far removed from reality as you can get. Just like MSM news and their fiction. The economy is all better, now look at how much the economy is "improving". The human race would not survive without vaccines, and the first tiny bug could kill all of you. Genetic Mutation is perfectly safe, now look at this Spider Goat that produces spider silk instead of milk. Terrorists hate the people of the USA not your Govt. You'll all die and / or suffer without mandatory Health Insurance and anything else Mandatory that Govt deems appropriate. A million dollar education to land you a ten dollar an hour job is totally worth it. Give all the money you earn to a bunch of Bankers like Bernie Madoff because they know better than you how to handle your money.

People believe both fiction, which is supposed to be a series of lies that is fun, and reality in the way its presented to them. Once people believe that, although Nanobots could potentially be a threat to life on earth, other things become possible, like voting for politicians who promise to protect people from evil Nanobots. Just swap out Nanobots with what ever evil application or boogeyman garners the most fear in people, to keep them dependant on Govt to protect them from everything.

GunnyFreedom
05-04-2014, 05:37 PM
Govt: You need us to create 'good science' and protect you from 'bad science' because you mundanes can not possibly do these things yourselves.

Read: Suspension of Disbelief

"Look at how scary and dangerous all these things in the world are. Aliens. Terminators. Meteors. Terrorists. Kidnappers. Boogeymen. Govt will protect you."

The message behind Sci Fi is nothing more than saying a technology that might exist. We know to not believe many things in Sci Fi. But the other messages are far too nefarious. You need to be dependant on someone else to protect you from all these possible bad things. And that is what people truly start to believe.

Just like Cop Dramas. Theres a murder, ooh, scary. Let the Cops protect you. Too believable. What happens in fictional court rooms and on the streets becomes reality for far too many when they suspend their disbelief that its just a bunch of people on a set with some cameras. Sometimes intersting to watch, but as far removed from reality as you can get. Just like MSM news and their fiction. The economy is all better, now look at how much the economy is "improving". The human race would not survive without vaccines, and the first tiny bug could kill all of you. Genetic Mutation is perfectly safe, now look at this Spider Goat that produces spider silk instead of milk. Terrorists hate the people of the USA not your Govt. You'll all die and / or suffer without mandatory Health Insurance and anything else Mandatory that Govt deems appropriate. A million dollar education to land you a ten dollar an hour job is totally worth it. Give all the money you earn to a bunch of Bankers like Bernie Madoff because they know better than you how to handle your money.

People believe both fiction, which is supposed to be a series of lies that is fun, and reality in the way its presented to them. Once people believe that, although Nanobots could potentially be a threat to life on earth, other things become possible, like voting for politicians who promise to protect people from evil Nanobots. Just swap out Nanobots with what ever evil application or boogeyman garners the most fear in people, to keep them dependant on Govt to protect them from everything.

Guessing you missed noticing Robert A. Heinlein and the authors of the Prometheus Awards. :p

Ender
05-04-2014, 05:56 PM
Govt: You need us to create 'good science' and protect you from 'bad science' because you mundanes can not possibly do these things yourselves.

Read: Suspension of Disbelief

"Look at how scary and dangerous all these things in the world are. Aliens. Terminators. Meteors. Terrorists. Kidnappers. Boogeymen. Govt will protect you."

The message behind Sci Fi is nothing more than saying a technology that might exist. We know to not believe many things in Sci Fi. But the other messages are far too nefarious. You need to be dependant on someone else to protect you from all these possible bad things. And that is what people truly start to believe.

Just like Cop Dramas. Theres a murder, ooh, scary. Let the Cops protect you. Too believable. What happens in fictional court rooms and on the streets becomes reality for far too many when they suspend their disbelief that its just a bunch of people on a set with some cameras. Sometimes intersting to watch, but as far removed from reality as you can get. Just like MSM news and their fiction. The economy is all better, now look at how much the economy is "improving". The human race would not survive without vaccines, and the first tiny bug could kill all of you. Genetic Mutation is perfectly safe, now look at this Spider Goat that produces spider silk instead of milk. Terrorists hate the people of the USA not your Govt. You'll all die and / or suffer without mandatory Health Insurance and anything else Mandatory that Govt deems appropriate. A million dollar education to land you a ten dollar an hour job is totally worth it. Give all the money you earn to a bunch of Bankers like Bernie Madoff because they know better than you how to handle your money.

People believe both fiction, which is supposed to be a series of lies that is fun, and reality in the way its presented to them. Once people believe that, although Nanobots could potentially be a threat to life on earth, other things become possible, like voting for politicians who promise to protect people from evil Nanobots. Just swap out Nanobots with what ever evil application or boogeyman garners the most fear in people, to keep them dependant on Govt to protect them from everything.


Uhhh.....no.

My experience with sci-fi is that it helped me begin to think out of the box and turned me toward freedom.

helmuth_hubener
05-05-2014, 10:08 AM
Did you actually read Ender's Game? You are quite the skeptical Gus.


The kids didn't know there were real people in the ships, But there were.

There were people in the ship, meaning that in reality they were not drones.

Ender & Co. thought it was all a game, a simulation (well, maybe Bean figured it out early), meaning that in Ender's mind of what he thought was happening they also were not drones.

So there were no drones. The ethical problem of drones is that of killing people by remote control, real people who you know are real.


I do not think that is pro-drone. And the Shadow books are definitely anti-empire books. Well, that's good. Are you sure they aren't just anti-India-and-China books?

I would say the most libertarian element of Ender's Game is the attitude taken towards authority. Ender is a strong individual and has no particular respect for the adults and children put in charge of giving him orders. He breaks the rules at every turn with no remorse and subverts their attempts at control back at themselves via skillful social navigation.

helmuth_hubener
05-20-2014, 02:56 PM
Bump for any more Card or sci-fi related thoughts.

mikemarotta
05-22-2014, 12:13 PM
Released through Tugg (www.tugg.com (http://www.tugg.com)), the movie version of Alongside Night is available for local showings. We are having ours here in Austin on June 18, 2014. (Listed at http://www.tugg.com/events/9089.) First published in 1979, in 1989, libertarian science fiction fans granted the novel their Prometheus Hall of Fame award. After more than two years in production, it finally became a movie, thanks to funding from Patrick A. Heller of Liberty Coin Service of Lansing, Michigan. In fact our local showing is co-sponsored by Capital Coin & Bullion (and also Brave New Books).

In the world of the present future, inflation is rampant. The federal government has issued emergency scrip. Vending machine tokens circulate as a convenience. The pan-European currency is backed in gold; and the Europeans are unwilling to underwrite the U.S. Treasury. Among the architects of Europe’s money is Dr. Martin Vreeland. As the crisis deepens and the U.S. government becomes more desperate, Dr. Vreeland is among thousands targeted for round-up and perhaps execution. Only his international status cushions him and his family, however briefly. The Vreelands plan to escape.

Our viewpoint character is high school senior Elliot Vreeland. The family is separated. Elliot is on his own in New York City with about 30 ounces in gold coins and some thin contacts with the underground economy of gypsy cab drivers and adult bookstores. Elliot then discovers a literal underground, a free market utopia including comfortable hotels and luxury malls that sell whatever you want. He also discovers a girl in a swimming pool. Then, the federal government raids the place.

Teaser Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HQsVgxMTnc

Longer Official Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTZ8vn45Cds

Fan Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6kBbGHq6Bk

Internet Movie Database
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1667061/

helmuth_hubener
05-22-2014, 06:54 PM
Finally! This has been a LONG time coming! Wow, I am so glad you came here to announce this to us, Mike. And the trailer look fantastic.

Front Page!

mikemarotta
05-24-2014, 08:25 AM
J. Neil Schulman will be in Austin for the movie to sign new editions of his book and to meet us for dinner. The movie is June 18. The signing will be on the 19th (so far) and after that, dinner (place to be decided). You can get your tickets for the movie from http://www.tugg.com/events/9089. (No tickets are sold at the theater.) You also can get tickets over the counter in advance at Brave New Books.

helmuth_hubener
05-24-2014, 03:15 PM
How could I go about getting the movie in my city?

mikemarotta
05-26-2014, 06:17 AM
To bring the movie to your city, contact Tugg, www.tugg.com. They make it easy to sponsor an event.

You will have to sell about 70 to 75 tickets for about $10 to $12 each in about three weeks. So, you need to have a campaign in place. I did not. I thought that Tugg and the theater were invested in this, but they are not. It is all on you. However, if the event does not fill up to the minimum, everyone gets their ticket purchases refunded automatically.

If you want to do this, J. Neil Schulman and the producers can fill you in on a lot that I did not know.

helmuth_hubener
05-27-2014, 07:27 PM
Alongside Bump!

helmuth_hubener
05-27-2014, 07:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HQsVgxMTnc

PierzStyx
05-27-2014, 07:39 PM
Read any of his books?

Oh yeah. The solution for the world's ills in the Ender Shadow series? One World Government. The Hegemon will make everything better by bringing peace and prosperity to all! More specifically, an American lead One World Government. Real libertarian stuff there.

PierzStyx
05-27-2014, 07:42 PM
You are quite the skeptical Gus.

But there were.

There were people in the ship, meaning that in reality they were not drones.

Ender & Co. thought it was all a game, a simulation (well, maybe Bean figured it out early), meaning that in Ender's mind of what he thought was happening they also were not drones.

So there were no drones. The ethical problem of drones is that of killing people by remote control, real people who you know are real.

Well, that's good. Are you sure they aren't just anti-India-and-China books?

I would say the most libertarian element of Ender's Game is the attitude taken towards authority. Ender is a strong individual and has no particular respect for the adults and children put in charge of giving him orders. He breaks the rules at every turn with no remorse and subverts their attempts at control back at themselves via skillful social navigation.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Ender did know what he was doing. He knew he was leading fleets into battle and sacrificing men to exterminate an entire race. That is why he can't sleep or stand to be around anyone. He is essentially going through a battle inflicted PTSD breakdown while at Command School. And its why he can't shake the guilt later. he willingly exterminated an entire race with full knowledge of his actions.

PierzStyx
05-27-2014, 07:45 PM
Those tolerant liberals again....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/28/hugo-awards-science-fiction-reading-politics-larry-correia-column/8282843/



More at the links above, and here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/04/28/hugo-awards-science-fiction-reading-politics-larry-correia-column/8282843/

Larry Correia is one of my favorite Mormon authors today. His books are just fast and fun, like the best summer blockbuster you've ever seen. And the fact that he hates the government is so obvious its delightful.

Ender
05-27-2014, 11:10 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure Ender did know what he was doing. He knew he was leading fleets into battle and sacrificing men to exterminate an entire race. That is why he can't sleep or stand to be around anyone. He is essentially going through a battle inflicted PTSD breakdown while at Command School. And its why he can't shake the guilt later. he willingly exterminated an entire race with full knowledge of his actions.

The whole point of Ender's GAME is that until the end, he doesn't know it is not a game. It was NOT willingly.

After Speaker for the Dead, the books go into a very cool quantum physics realm that is fascinating.

The Shadow books do leave Earth under the rule of Peter, who turns out to be a much better person than he seems at first. BUT- the realm of Ender's world, the buggers and the Speaker for the Dead is where the real hope and libertarian thought goes- not Earth.

helmuth_hubener
05-28-2014, 09:57 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure Ender did know what he was doing. He knew he was leading fleets into battle and sacrificing men to exterminate an entire race. That is why he can't sleep or stand to be around anyone. He is essentially going through a battle inflicted PTSD breakdown while at Command School. And its why he can't shake the guilt later. he willingly exterminated an entire race with full knowledge of his actions.
That's an interesting alternative interpretation.

Certainly whether he knew or not, he bought in far too fully -- as in, completely fully -- to the official narrative of the goodness of having a war of extermination against the Buggers. He agreed that it should be done. He bought into the whole holy war ideology. He didn't think that he was doing it yet (in my interpretation), but he was training specifically for the purpose of doing it. That was going to be his career.

The consequences of his beliefs just came home to roost a little sooner than he had planned on.

PierzStyx
05-28-2014, 05:20 PM
The whole point of Ender's GAME is that until the end, he doesn't know it is not a game. It was NOT willingly.

After Speaker for the Dead, the books go into a very cool quantum physics realm that is fascinating.

The Shadow books do leave Earth under the rule of Peter, who turns out to be a much better person than he seems at first. BUT- the realm of Ender's world, the buggers and the Speaker for the Dead is where the real hope and libertarian thought goes- not Earth.

I disagree. The reader certainly thinks its a game. But Ender doesn't. He realizes before the end of the book what he is doing and its starts destroying him emotionally and mentally. Yet he does it anyway because he is deceived into thinking the Buggers were coming for them. And when you re-read it, knowing the ending, you can see it setting in, the realization of what he is doing, how it is hurting him, and how he chooses to continue doing it. Ender is the consummate soldier, just following orders because that is what he is supposed to do even when he knows deep down it is wrong.

I've read the rest of the Ender series as well. As a Mormon, I can see how Card's beliefs influence his later books, especially Children of the Mind.

That said I don't see anything especially libertarian in them. Sure Ender is opposing the government, but not because its evil or unjust. He thinks they are wrong, but he isn't protesting the actual evils of the One World Government, just the specific actions effecting the Piggies.

PierzStyx
05-28-2014, 05:23 PM
That's an interesting alternative interpretation.

Certainly whether he knew or not, he bought in far too fully -- as in, completely fully -- to the official narrative of the goodness of having a war of extermination against the Buggers. He agreed that it should be done. He bought into the whole holy war ideology. He didn't think that he was doing it yet (in my interpretation), but he was training specifically for the purpose of doing it. That was going to be his career.

The consequences of his beliefs just came home to roost a little sooner than he had planned on.

I agree with you. I will say this, its a fine writer that can make someone like Ender Wiggin, the Xenocide, the man who was willing to exterminate an entire intelligent race, into a sympathetic hero. I mean Ender is by body count alone, several magnitudes worse than a Hitler or a Stalin, yet you still feel bad for Ender. Great writing.

DamianTV
05-28-2014, 06:42 PM
Suspension of Disbelief

Already addressed in numerous threads. The way Sci Fi presents the world is not the way it really is. None the less, it offers opportunity to instill fear and expectations of normality in peoples minds. Oh sure, its okay if everyone gets an RFID chip. Be afraid of zombie apocolypse / people that use cash / terrorizers / brown people. Whats next? Be afraid of the Plutonium Meteor that could strike the earth at any given moment? Oh and it will be really difficult to see and wont need to be nearly as big as the six mile wide rock that wiped out the dinosaurs. Solution to the Plutonium Meteor is to have unlimited surveillance on people. Makes as much sense as a scren door on a submarine.

mikemarotta
05-29-2014, 11:48 AM
Historical fiction, science fiction, westerns, murder mysteries, whatever the genre, really, it is about here-and-now. It is extremely difficult to translate time and place and still keep the reader. We are not Romans. We are not Romulans. So, every story only establishes contexts for the listener, reader, or viewer, to judge themself and their time and place. That has been true since the Gilgamesh and the Iliad and Odyssey. The people who enjoyed those did not experience the times and places of the stories. Myth transfigures our experiences.

But stories such as 1984 and Alongside Night, set in the near-present of a possible outcome are different from Brave New World or Anthem.

Alongside Night - being released here and now as a movie - is about the draining of Fort Knox, the police powers of FEMA, and the consequences of inflation. Ron Paul has a cameo in this film. So do David D. Friedman and Adam Kokesh.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-z7_6fNLKSOc/U4VDKyJWp4I/AAAAAAAACgU/bImxhgMTbSI/s1600/Newsclip.tiff

From the movie, Alongside Night, a film clip of Dr. Vreeland when he last spoke at Libertopia.
Even the mainstream media question the official announcement that he died of a heart attack.

The movie has played in Lansing, Michigan, and Highland Park, Illinois. it is scheduled next for
Austin, Texas, June 18. (See the Texas discussion base here on Ron Paul Forums. Follow the breadcrumbs:


Liberty Forums (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forum.php)
Local Liberty Matters (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?322-Local-Liberty-Matters)
States & Territories (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?267-States-amp-Territories)
Texas (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?137-Texas)
Austin showing "Alongside Night" June 18, 2014)


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-plrkPVzC9ds/U4VDMG3giwI/AAAAAAAACgo/93vDWfuoXaA/s1600/President+Speaks.tiff

David Busey as the President of the United States announces
strong measures and offers heartfelt reassurances.

GunnyFreedom
05-29-2014, 05:34 PM
Suspension of Disbelief

Already addressed in numerous threads. The way Sci Fi presents the world is not the way it really is. None the less, it offers opportunity to instill fear and expectations of normality in peoples minds. Oh sure, its okay if everyone gets an RFID chip. Be afraid of zombie apocolypse / people that use cash / terrorizers / brown people. Whats next? Be afraid of the Plutonium Meteor that could strike the earth at any given moment? Oh and it will be really difficult to see and wont need to be nearly as big as the six mile wide rock that wiped out the dinosaurs. Solution to the Plutonium Meteor is to have unlimited surveillance on people. Makes as much sense as a scren door on a submarine.

You clearly read different sci fi than I do, because in the stuff I read, forced RFID would be cause to war, and the surveillance state is always driven by the antagonist.

Deborah K
05-29-2014, 06:55 PM
There was a time when science fiction was a place to explore new ideas, free of the conventional wisdom of staid, “mundane” society, a place where speculation replaced group think, and where writers as different as libertarian-leaning Robert Heinlein, and left-leaning Isaac Asimov and Arthur Clarke would share readers, magazines, and conventions.



I long for this again. :(

DamianTV
05-29-2014, 08:46 PM
You clearly read different sci fi than I do, because in the stuff I read, forced RFID would be cause to war, and the surveillance state is always driven by the antagonist.

Main Stream Sci Fi?

Brave New World would oppose RFID implants, but a TV show (MSM Sci Fi) like Continuum portrays RFID implants as a good thing.

helmuth_hubener
05-31-2014, 05:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HQsVgxMTnc

Seriously, the Alongside Night movie announcement should go on the front page. This is a wonderful book, and it is a tremendous accomplishment that J. Neil has pulled off the production of this moive. A labor of love and determination, for sure.

mikemarotta
06-17-2014, 10:05 AM
Atlas Shrugged inspired Alan Greenspan to become Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. Alongside Night inspired Dread Pirate Roberts to create Silk Road. We seem to have a serious political dialog going here, and for once, it between Freedom and More Freedom.

Alongside Night playing in
Austin, Texas, June 18
Lancaster, New Hampshire (PorcFest) June 24
Columbus, Ohio (LP Convention) June 26
Las Vegas, July 8
Rosemont, Illinois, September 25.

RED CARPET ROLLOUT STARRING KEVIN SORBO
Beverly Hills. July 14 Laemmie's Music Hall 3

Find the movie at http://www.tugg.com/titles/alongside-night
If you want to bring it to your town, it is just a bit of work (40 hours) and some money ($1000 or less) upfront - and you get 5% of the ticket sales.

This will not be on DVD or Netflicks anytime soon. It is a great organizing event. We worked with the Bitcoin people here several ways. But other groups such as Texans for Accountable Government, and of course the local libertarians and objectivists welcomed the news, and gave me time and space at their meetings.

CaseyJones
06-30-2014, 11:41 PM
reading Forge of the Elders by L. Neil Smith right now... its entertaining