HOAX EXPOSED: Full Clip Of Cliven Bundy’s Non-Racist, Pro-Black, Pro-Mexican, Anti-Government

[twomp]

SEE THAT CLIVEN BUNDY IS ACTUALLY AN ADVOCATE FOR BLACKS, HISPANICS

SEE THAT CLIVEN BUNDY WAS MERELY QUOTING BLACK THOUGHT LEADERS THOMAS SOWELL AND WALTER E. WILLIAMS

“The welfare state has done to Blacks what slavery couldn’t do, and that is to destroy the Black family.” – Walter E. Williams

“The Black family, which had survived centuries of slavery, began rapidly disintegrating in the liberal welfare state” - Thomas Sowell

Watch Bundy explain how we need to keep things from going backwards for blacks, and how the Federal government has created a neo-slave class via entitlement dependency that is so bad it is arguably worse than plantation slavery was. It is 100% clear that Cliven Bundy is not saying that blacks should be slaves picking cotton, but that the Federal government has created conditions for them so terrible, that their current situation may actually be worse. (If you are person of low intelligence, the fact that that is his point might be too hard for you to understand.) And he’s not blaming blacks for the issues of abortions, and crime and broken families, he’s blaming the Feds. This is the exact opposite of a racist, this is an advocate for the welfare and best interests of blacks. And just as importantly, you’ll at the end of the video he gives passionate praise and defense of hispanic illegal aliens, lauding them for “better family structures than most white peoples’” Racist? Why is he praising Mexicans as better than whites, if he’s some sort of white supremacist racist?. Take a hike all you lying, character-assassinating, leftist pieces of dog shit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=agXns-W60MI

Now watch the edited version of Bundy’s remarks as promoted by the left-wing Media Matters and as reported in the NY Times:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FbnRnhrNFEY

http://patdollard.com/2014/04/shock-hoax-exposed-full-clip-of-cliven-bundys-non-racist-pro-black-anti-government-remarks-vs-media-matters-deceptively-edited-hoax-version-see-that-cliven-bundy-is-actually-an-advocat/

[Vanguard101]

You just posted a clip of a racist....

[Feeding the Abscess]

There is a massive and appreciable gap between saying that not even slavery could destroy the black family to the extent the welfare state has, and actually asking if blacks, as a whole, were better off being owned by other human beings.

It can be repeated a trillion times, and it will never be true. Blacks were not better off being owned by other human beings than they are now.

[fr33]

Blacks, whites, browns, and yellows are all still slaves.

[V3n]

Is it ok when these guys say it?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY9fI0XPjmY

"The size, scope and reach of government IS the new plantation." - Herman Cain

[tod evans]

Mr Bundy clearly isn't articulate enough for some of the oversensitive folks...

Whoda thunk, an inarticulate cattle rancher.....

[William Tell]

You just posted a clip of a racist....

No, Bundy is not a racist, you are buying into liberal propaganda. Just because he used words that WERE politically correct 60 years ago, does not mean he is a racist. Watch these videos, informed blacks are saying he is not a racist.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPzie5K8jJg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cd3TG9uoMg

[otherone]

Blacks were not better off being owned by other human beings than they are now.

The people who were in bondage 150 years ago are long dead, but I suppose death is better than slavery.

[JK/SEA]

You just posted a clip of a racist....


well then...that settles that.

burp

hack

spit.

[William Tell]

My Grandpa, when talking about blacks, used the word 'colored' until the day he died. He passed away 4 years ago. He was born in the north, and that was the term he was told to use to be polite when he was young. He was not at all racist, he spent hours and hours talking about how all men are God's children, and brothers and stuff like that. I was listening to Apostle Claver on Raging Elephants Radio yesterday, he is black. He pointed out that Bundy's use of words, was the only thing that the Liberals can attack him over. How many clips of black men defending 'RACIST EVIL CLIVEN!!!!' :eek: do I have to dig up before people stop buying the politically correct bull crap? :mad:

[unklejman]

He may or may not be a racist, but he is a collectivist. "The Negro" or "The black man" or "The black family" etc... does not recognize individuals. It's not just people with brown skin who are dependent on government. And no, people with that color of skin would not be better off owned by some one, than having the choice to make what they will of their own life.

[Vanguard101]

This man said the blacks he saw in those houses abort their children and put their kids in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton....That's racist...

[pcosmar]

This man said the blacks he saw in those houses abort their children and put their kids in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton....That's racist...

And that is either sarcasm, or you are a blithering idiot.

Please clarify.

[Ender]

Blacks, whites, browns, and yellows are all still slaves.

Yep- Lincoln made sure of that.

[Guitarzan]

This man said the blacks he saw in those houses abort their children and put their kids in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton....That's racist...

What he said, after putting his words through modern PC translators, is this:

"African-Americans have the highest rate of abortion of any modern ethnic group in the US. They also have the highest incarceration rate among their young males. This is the outcome that is expected when persons are provided subsidies through government programs, as subsidies drastically lower incentives to learn crafts that build on one's productivity."


Does the above comment sound racist to you?

[PRB]

"but that the Federal government has created conditions for them so terrible, that their current situation may actually be worse."

That's the same thing, saying A is worse than B is the same as saying B is better than A. There is no context that will change what he said. Wanting blacks to be better off doesn't change what he said.

[PRB]

He may or may not be a racist, but he is a collectivist. "The Negro" or "The black man" or "The black family" etc... does not recognize individuals. It's not just people with brown skin who are dependent on government. And no, people with that color of skin would not be better off owned by some one, than having the choice to make what they will of their own life.

what if his collectivism was simply stating facts in response to questions or reality? Is saying blacks commit more violent crimes than whites collectivist? or stating fact?

The collectivist/individualist distinction only matters if you're judging a person, facts do not care whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

[tod evans]

what if his collectivism was simply stating facts in response to questions or reality? Is saying blacks commit more violent crimes than whites collectivist? or stating fact?

The collectivist/individualist distinction only matters if you're judging a person, facts do not care whether you want to acknowledge them or not.


Sensitivity damn it!

There's a squad that's been dispatched you've obviously missed your sensitivity training.

[JK/SEA]

This man said the blacks he saw in those houses abort their children and put their kids in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton....That's racist...

'we' don't pick cotton by hand too much these days....right?....cotton is picked by machine i believe, so therefore, the 'picking cotton' reference is a metaphor for HARD WORK, or just 'working'...

the rest of your racist allegation is just silly..... Whats the ratio of blacks versus whites in jail or prison?.....geez...

[TomtheTinker]

There is a massive and appreciable gap between saying that not even slavery could destroy the black family to the extent the welfare state has, and actually asking if blacks, as a whole, were better off being owned by other human beings.

It can be repeated a trillion times, and it will never be true. Blacks were not better off being owned by other human beings than they are now.


How do you know? and which black person are you speaking of? which slave did you have a chance to interview?

[TomtheTinker]

"Whoda thunk, an inarticulate cattle rancher....."

That's classism.

[Deborah K]

There is a massive and appreciable gap between saying that not even slavery could destroy the black family to the extent the welfare state has, and actually asking if blacks, as a whole, were better off being owned by other human beings.

It can be repeated a trillion times, and it will never be true. Blacks were not better off being owned by other human beings than they are now.

That depends on whether the messenger is a skilled orator, or an elderly, inarticulate, old fashioned rancher with virtually no speaking skills.

[Deborah K]

He may or may not be a racist, but he is a collectivist. "The Negro" or "The black man" or "The black family" etc... does not recognize individuals. It's not just people with brown skin who are dependent on government. And no, people with that color of skin would not be better off owned by some one, than having the choice to make what they will of their own life.

You lack understanding of what 'collectivism' means.

[TomtheTinker]

My Grandpa, when talking about blacks, used the word 'colored' until the day he died. He passed away 4 years ago. He was born in the north, and that was the term he was told to use to be polite when he was young. He was not at all racist, he spent hours and hours talking about how all men are God's children, and brothers and stuff like that. I was listening to Apostle Claver on Raging Elephants Radio yesterday, he is black. He pointed out that Bundy's use of words, was the only thing that the Liberals can attack him over. How many clips of black men defending 'RACIST EVIL CLIVEN!!!!' :eek: do I have to dig up before people stop buying the politically correct bull crap? :mad:


There is no amount of common sense, no inventory of logic large enough to convince the political correct police that any body who is different from them isn't some sort of bigot.

even if that means they are more bigoted than the people they attack.

[Deborah K]

This man said the blacks he saw in those houses abort their children and put their kids in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton....That's racist...

It's stereotyping, not racism. He didn't call for them to be lynched, or to return to slavery.

[fr33]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb8Rj5xkDPk

[nobody's_hero]

You lack understanding of what 'collectivism' means.

Or when Cliven has used the word "individual" more in one press conference than most of us do in a year.

[Cissy]

'we' don't pick cotton by hand too much these days....right?....cotton is picked by machine i believe, so therefore, the 'picking cotton' reference is a metaphor for HARD WORK, or just 'working'...

the rest of your racist allegation is just silly..... Whats the ratio of blacks versus whites in jail or prison?.....geez...

There are plenty of metaphors for hard work or working which don't give the collectivists unnecessary ammo.

[pcosmar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stbf9GcVQ3E

[Spikender]

I remember I was into Zo when I used to be a neocon in high school.

I stopped when I woke up and never watched him again.

Wondered how he was doing.

[56ktarget]

So the guy who said blacks were better off as slaves is actually pro-black? lol...

[fr33]

So the guy who said blacks were better off as slaves is actually pro-black? lol...
Oh look, a drive by poster that didn't read anything within the topic. That's why he has red-rep.

[PRB]

So the guy who said blacks were better off as slaves is actually pro-black? lol...

Yes. Because if it wasn't, we'd have to agree with liberals that he's racist, and we can't have that.

[sylcfh]

Saying black Americans were better off as slaves exclusively is highly racist.

Making the analogy that black Americans are worse off in the projects than they were as slaves is maybe less racist, but still inappropriate.

[PRB]

Saying black Americans were better off as slaves exclusively is highly racist.

Making the analogy that black Americans are worse off in the projects than they were as slaves is maybe less racist, but still inappropriate.

Anybody who thinks slavery is preferable to ANYTHING today (with exception of prison), should demonstrate that by voluntarily becoming a slave (especially those who claim "we are all still slaves")

[mrsat_98]

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/johannwolf134023.html#uM5x9iyTMEDVq3Rt.99

FYI

[pcosmar]

Anybody who thinks slavery is preferable to ANYTHING today (with exception of prison), should demonstrate that by voluntarily becoming a slave (especially those who claim "we are all still slaves")

Your Troll Crap needs a response,, but I'll let these brothers do it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stbf9GcVQ3E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cd3TG9uoMg

[PRB]

Your Troll Crap needs a response,, but I'll jet these brothers do it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Stbf9GcVQ3E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cd3TG9uoMg

Being black doesn't make you right or non-racist. But that's besides the point, again, if either of these guys think blacks are better off was slaves, let's see them volunteers as slaves, I'm sure they'll know how preferable it is.

I can say I prefer to be waterboarded than to be fed cheese, doesn't mean I actually do unless and until I've proven I've done it.

[pcosmar]

Being black doesn't make you right or non-racist. .

So in other words you did not listen to a word they said.. And would likely ignore any other in the Black community that agree with them,, or strays from the entitlement mentality.

Did you get banned from 4chan or something? Don't you have somewhere else to fling shit at the walls?

[PRB]

So in other words you did not listen to a word they said.. And would likely ignore any other in the Black community that agree with them,, or strays from the entitlement mentality.

Did you get banned from 4chan or something? Don't you have somewhere else to fling shit at the walls?

Being against entitlements and agreeing with Bundy is all great, but saying slavery is preferable to anything today is a bullshit claim unless and until a person proves it by living it. I don't dismiss what a person says just because he is or isn't black, but if one is going to make a claim that X is better than Y, i won't take him seriously unless he acts on it.

[pcosmar]

Being against entitlements and agreeing with Bundy is all great, but saying slavery is preferable to anything today is a bullshit claim unless and until a person proves it by living it. I don't dismiss what a person says just because he is or isn't black, but if one is going to make a claim that X is better than Y, i won't take him seriously unless he acts on it.

Way to miss the whole point of what Mr. Bundy said.. Likely from listening to a clip out of context on the MSM Smear Channel.

What he said it that welfare IS slavery.
And the Fed Gov is the slave master.

Try listening to his whole message rather than one sentence taken out of context.

Or don't. (I don't really expect you to seriously learn anything, you are only here to throw shit at the walls)

[PRB]

What he said it that welfare IS slavery.
And the Fed Gov is the slave master.

Oh, I thought that was what he said, so I didn't misunderstand him.

If welfare IS slavery, why do no welfare recipients voluntarily become the slaves which were allowed pre-1860?

It's obviously the same thing!

Why do no blacks actually act like slavery is preferable, instead of just saying it like it's a cool talking point?

Here's my offer : I'll research the costs, conditions and other info on slavery pre-1860. I'll take a volunteer to sign a contract to become exactly that, after all, if it's voluntary, it's not illegal. We'll see who wants to be my slave, since welfare is the same as being a slave, being mine can't be worse than being the gubmints, right?

My bet, unless a person is in prison, which I can't help, NOBODY WILL WANT TO BE A SLAVE, EVERYBODY realizes slavery is nothing compared to anything today (except prison).

[kcchiefs6465]

The difference in servitude is a matter of degree, not principle.

How about I give you a pittance, you vote me the authority to rule over your life, and I take and do with what you own as I so please?

Never mind if there is an actual binding contract. It is well understood that might is all that is needed for 'my' plan to become law.

We'll call it democracy. And I'll herald your living conditions and relative security to all who'll listen.

Hell, with what is stolen most certainly there'd be enough (after the coffers are full), to spend money to indoctrinate the young that they are free and others are unfree. Never question why a third of the year is worked to be 'free' (aside from the plethora of taxes that further drown the average) or teach how a dollar comes into existence.

I'll reiterate. The difference is in degree, not principle.

[Origanalist]

Oh, I thought that was what he said, so I didn't misunderstand him.

If welfare IS slavery, why do no welfare recipients voluntarily become the slaves which were allowed pre-1860?

It's obviously the same thing!

Why do no blacks actually act like slavery is preferable, instead of just saying it like it's a cool talking point?

Here's my offer : I'll research the costs, conditions and other info on slavery pre-1860. I'll take a volunteer to sign a contract to become exactly that, after all, if it's voluntary, it's not illegal. We'll see who wants to be my slave, since welfare is the same as being a slave, being mine can't be worse than being the gubmints, right?

My bet, unless a person is in prison, which I can't help, NOBODY WILL WANT TO BE A SLAVE, EVERYBODY realizes slavery is nothing compared to anything today (except prison).

I don't really care how you spin it. If you are dependent on the government for your existence you are a slave. All it takes is for them to cut you off/reduce your "entitlements" to realize this.

[PRB]

I don't really care how you spin it. If you are dependent on the government for your existence you are a slave. All it takes is for them to cut you off/reduce your "entitlements" to realize this.

dependent on government is hardly the same as being forced to live in a place in chains and threat of violence if you tried to escape.

[juleswin]

I don't really care how you spin it. If you are dependent on the government for your existence you are a slave. All it takes is for them to cut you off/reduce your "entitlements" to realize this.

A child is dependent on his mother, a paraplegic is dependent on his caregiver, a fetus is dependent on his mother and non of those people are slaves. They are called dependents. Again, it doesnt matter how many African American you show me saying this is true, heck I can show you video of white people saying foolish things about slavery or New Yorkers who were there during the 911 attacks saying no planes hit the world trade center. So the fact that you can find a few outliers confirming something as silly as black people faring better under slavery than the system we have now doesn't make it true.

Like RPB said, if it was better, why are we not seeing some black people going back to slave system of colonial America. They can easily fly to Saudi Arabia where their passports can be taken away from them and then put to work by the Wahhabi people running that country. I know tmot can afford the flight, so let him a pioneer in this new endevour.

[juleswin]

I don't really care how you spin it. If you are dependent on the government for your existence you are a slave. All it takes is for them to cut you off/reduce your "entitlements" to realize this.

A child is dependent on his mother, a paraplegic is dependent on his caregiver, a fetus is dependent on his mother and non of those people are slaves. They are called dependents. Again, it doesnt matter how many African American you show me saying this is true, heck I can show you video of white people saying foolish things about slavery or New Yorkers who were there during the 911 attacks saying no planes hit the world trade center. So the fact that you can find a few outliers confirming something as silly as black people faring better under slavery than the system we have now doesn't make it true.

Like RPB said, if it was better, why are we not seeing some black people going back to slave system of colonial America. They can easily fly to Saudi Arabia where their passports can be taken away from them and then put to work by the Wahhabi people running that country. I know tmot can afford the flight, so let him a pioneer in this new endevour.

[pcosmar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cd3TG9uoMg

He has a private meeting with Mr Bundy this morning,, He flew into Las Vegas last night.

I will be looking to see if there will be Live Stream of a press conference afterwards.


Press Conference with Georgia U.S. Senate Candidate and Mr. Cliven Bundy

On Sunday, May 4th 2014, Minister Derrick Grayson, U.S. Senate Candidate from the State of Georgia will be meeting in private with Mr. Cliven Bundy.

At 3:30 pm, Mr. Grayson will be holding a press conference with local media to address the issues surrounding The Bundy Family and The Bureau of Land Management. All media outlets are invited and encouraged to attend this press conference.

Mr. Grayson will speak and if Mr. Bundy wishes to address the media, he will do so at such time.

For more information about Minister Derrick Grayson, visit www.Grayson2014.com

[oldietech]

Oh, I thought that was what he said, so I didn't misunderstand him.

If welfare IS slavery, why do no welfare recipients voluntarily become the slaves which were allowed pre-1860?

It's obviously the same thing!

Why do no blacks actually act like slavery is preferable, instead of just saying it like it's a cool talking point?

Here's my offer : I'll research the costs, conditions and other info on slavery pre-1860. I'll take a volunteer to sign a contract to become exactly that, after all, if it's voluntary, it's not illegal. We'll see who wants to be my slave, since welfare is the same as being a slave, being mine can't be worse than being the gubmints, right?

My bet, unless a person is in prison, which I can't help, NOBODY WILL WANT TO BE A SLAVE, EVERYBODY realizes slavery is nothing compared to anything today (except prison).


This is the most ignorant thing I have heard on this entire subject. Did you not hear the guy in the first video explain this?

Trading one type of shackle for the other. Today's welfare slaves are shackled to their mail box waiting for a check on the 1st and 15th.

The big huge problem that you completely FAIL to comprehend is lack of freedom. It doesn't matter what is between you and freedom. It can be a physical chain keeping you from reaching that point. And yeah that is awful. It can also be a mental chain that is keeping you from reaching that point.

What is worse? Sure the physical scars are painful and miserable. But you know what? So are the mental scars. I would argue that the mental scars are 10x's worse than the physical scars. Physical scars are not passed from generation to generation.

CLEARLY the mental scars ARE. Physical slavery is one manifestation of slavery defined as...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slavery

1. drudgery, toil (drudgery - dull, irksome, and fatiguing work : uninspiring or menial labor), (toil - long strenuous fatiguing labor)

What does the black labor force look like?

http://blackdemographics.com/economics/employment/

Blacks are over represented in GOVERNMENT sector jobs and under represented in self-employed jobs. Make of that what you will, but it seems to me that many blacks are stuck in drudgery and toil UNDER the "government".

2. submission to a dominating influence

I think it is pretty clear that based on prison population demographics that blacks are more likely to be forced into submission and are being dominated by "anti-drug" aka anti-poverty laws.

3a. the state of a person who is a chattel of another

This is arguable as well. When a city decides to relocate "the projects" entire lives are uprooted. I suppose there is no physical title of ownership, but there certainly are documents giving the ruling class carte blance control over ANYONE living in such conditions to treat like pawns. This of course is not just limited to blacks, but again we have disproportionate numbers of blacks on welfare.

I must ask, since it is not physical chains keeping those blacks from becoming gainfully employed, self-employed, employed by private industry, out of jail for non-violence, off of welfare, out of violent gangs, off drugs, out of abortion clinics etc etc... all of which are manifestations lack of freedom aka slavery, what kind of chains are they?

They are mental chains. What is worse? A chain that can be physical separated from the body and once cast off leaves a physical scar even while granting freedom? OR

Mental chains which can invisibly bind, are passed down from generation to generation UNDETECTED, can not be easily removed, become embedded as part of an accepted and CELEBRATED cultural paradigm?

Apparently, for the slave, mental chains are preferred (the matrix) over physical chains because of the seemingly unbearable and physically painful nature.

Make no mistake however for the master mental chains are preferred (welfare) as they are much cheaper to maintain, last longer, provide COMPLETE control over both physical and mental (total lack of freedom AND no hope for such), and best of all EMBRACED and passed thru generation by the captives.

So I have to ask, which would you prefer? Freedom or complete lack of physical pain? That is the real question. It really boils down to what a person believes freedom is.

I would argue that anything less than 100% freedom in both physical and mental is TOTAL slavery. I would also argue that casting of physical restraint is MUCH easier than casting of mental restraint.

One thing that marks the black community in my mind is their SPIRITUAL freedom. This is something that is definitely celebrated in the black community and should be celebrated in ALL communities. Blacks who did endure physical chains were able to keep their hopes alive by taping in to their spiritual selves. This in many ways is the overcoming of any mental restraints.

I believe the ruling class has learned to make chains to bind even the spiritual self. No longer is it necessary to physically break a man to gain compliance. No longer do crude physical chains and punishment serve as the easiest, cheapest and best way to reign in a mans instinct to be free.

Slavery has simply taken on another more sinister and ruthless form. We'd all be wise to learn from the black man on how to endure such conditions as being stripped of our freedom.

We must protect our mental and spiritual freedom at all cost. We must recognize when our freedom is being suppressed in the mind before we can even hope to win the physical battle for our freedom.

This is the lesson here that Cliven Bundy has learned, this is what he has observed.

It is unacceptable for anyone to attempt to distort that based on the chains wrapped around their own minds.

[PRB]

This is the most ignorant thing I have heard on this entire subject. Did you not hear the guy in the first video explain this?

Trading one type of shackle for the other. Today's welfare slaves are shackled to their mail box waiting for a check on the 1st and 15th.


Yeah, because it's illegal to not take the check, right? Stopping giving them checks will give them 'FREEDOM', right? Let me go steal their check and free them from this shackle...wtf!



The big huge problem that you completely FAIL to comprehend is lack of freedom. It doesn't matter what is between you and freedom. It can be a physical chain keeping you from reaching that point. And yeah that is awful. It can also be a mental chain that is keeping you from reaching that point.


The fact you are comparing a mental chain to a metal chain is exactly the bone I am picking. I will be happy to put a metal chain on anybody who claims is mental chain is equally bad or worse. If it's in fact no worse on a metal chain, I challenge anybody to volunteer as my slave.



What is worse? Sure the physical scars are painful and miserable. But you know what? So are the mental scars. I would argue that the mental scars are 10x's worse than the physical scars. Physical scars are not passed from generation to generation.


Again, you can argue all you want, I'll take it seriously when somebody volunteers it. How many physical scars and whips will you take if I can guarantee your child will never get welfare checks?



CLEARLY the mental scars ARE. Physical slavery is one manifestation of slavery defined as...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slavery

1. drudgery, toil (drudgery - dull, irksome, and fatiguing work : uninspiring or menial labor), (toil - long strenuous fatiguing labor)

What does the black labor force look like?

http://blackdemographics.com/economics/employment/

Blacks are over represented in GOVERNMENT sector jobs and under represented in self-employed jobs. Make of that what you will, but it seems to me that many blacks are stuck in drudgery and toil UNDER the "government".

2. submission to a dominating influence

I think it is pretty clear that based on prison population demographics that blacks are more likely to be forced into submission and are being dominated by "anti-drug" aka anti-poverty laws.

3a. the state of a person who is a chattel of another

This is arguable as well. When a city decides to relocate "the projects" entire lives are uprooted. I suppose there is no physical title of ownership, but there certainly are documents giving the ruling class carte blance control over ANYONE living in such conditions to treat like pawns. This of course is not just limited to blacks, but again we have disproportionate numbers of blacks on welfare.

I must ask, since it is not physical chains keeping those blacks from becoming gainfully employed, self-employed, employed by private industry, out of jail for non-violence, off of welfare, out of violent gangs, off drugs, out of abortion clinics etc etc... all of which are manifestations lack of freedom aka slavery, what kind of chains are they?


Do you consider that perhaps they are simply genetically disabled or victims of racism other than state instituted? It's either the fault of the government or the fault of the government, it can't be the fault of themselves or their other surroundings, right?




They are mental chains. What is worse? A chain that can be physical separated from the body and once cast off leaves a physical scar even while granting freedom? OR

Mental chains which can invisibly bind, are passed down from generation to generation UNDETECTED, can not be easily removed, become embedded as part of an accepted and CELEBRATED cultural paradigm?

Apparently, for the slave, mental chains are preferred (the matrix) over physical chains because of the seemingly unbearable and physically painful nature.

Make no mistake however for the master mental chains are preferred (welfare) as they are much cheaper to maintain, last longer, provide COMPLETE control over both physical and mental (total lack of freedom AND no hope for such), and best of all EMBRACED and passed thru generation by the captives.

So I have to ask, which would you prefer? Freedom or complete lack of physical pain? That is the real question. It really boils down to what a person believes freedom is.

I would argue that anything less than 100% freedom in both physical and mental is TOTAL slavery. I would also argue that casting of physical restraint is MUCH easier than casting of mental restraint.

One thing that marks the black community in my mind is their SPIRITUAL freedom. This is something that is definitely celebrated in the black community and should be celebrated in ALL communities. Blacks who did endure physical chains were able to keep their hopes alive by taping in to their spiritual selves. This in many ways is the overcoming of any mental restraints.

I believe the ruling class has learned to make chains to bind even the spiritual self. No longer is it necessary to physically break a man to gain compliance. No longer do crude physical chains and punishment serve as the easiest, cheapest and best way to reign in a mans instinct to be free.

Slavery has simply taken on another more sinister and ruthless form. We'd all be wise to learn from the black man on how to endure such conditions as being stripped of our freedom.

We must protect our mental and spiritual freedom at all cost. We must recognize when our freedom is being suppressed in the mind before we can even hope to win the physical battle for our freedom.

This is the lesson here that Cliven Bundy has learned, this is what he has observed.

It is unacceptable for anyone to attempt to distort that based on the chains wrapped around their own minds.

TLDR, I'll take a person seriously when he/she demonstrates it, talk is easy. I can say waterboarding is not preferable to having an arm cut off, does that mean you have to believe me?

[PRB]

I know tmot can afford the flight, so let him a pioneer in this new endevour.

what's tmot? the majority of them?

[PRB]

So I have to ask, which would you prefer? Freedom or complete lack of physical pain? That is the real question. It really boils down to what a person believes freedom is.

I am open to the possibility that some physical pain may be worth it for some freedom, BUT UNTIL I SEE IT, I WILL NOT CLAIM IT IS TRUE, AND IF I DO, I WILL ACT ON IT. I am also open to the possibility that freedom isn't always the best thing (compared to life, not having pain, not having worries...etc) Being open to being wrong is not the same as saying it's true.

[tod evans]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ

[pcosmar]

what's tmot? the majority of them?

You really are that damn ignorant aren't you.

Fortunately, ignorance can be corrected.

Information to educate,,and correct your ignorance.
TMOT,, stands for "the Minister of Truth" The name used by Derrick Grayson in educational and inspirational Videos.

He is presently running for Office in Ga.

Ignorance can be corrected. Now you know and are no longer ignorant of that.

be warned however,, While ignorance can be corrected,, stupidity is terminal.

[PRB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cd3TG9uoMg
.

Now that I actually saw the video, his point is still wrong.

The fact you're encouraged by welfare checks to not live with your spouse, not to mention you still can fraudulently, is HARDLY the same as being forced to live apart with threat of violence. In today's world, a person is ENCOURAGED to not have family, but still have a choice, this is entirely different than being FORCED to not have family and the choice of challenging is likely beating or death.

In slavery, slave owners only kept slaves for as healthy and alive as they needed them for work, at least any smart economic owner would do so. But in welfare, nobody is forced to accept the subsidy, nobody is barred from seeking alternative employment, it's just no comparison. the fact blacks may be stupid enough to be kept in the alleged shackles of welfare does not somehow mean welfare is the same or worse than metal shackles. The conditions today are far better than under slavery, and IF blacks have not improved their lives, I don't blame the government, I blame them, if that makes me racist, so be it. I blame the government for a lot of things, but welfare is at the end of the day, intended as, and ultimately a help, not harm, for the recipient, they are ALWAYS FREE TO TURN IT DOWN. This choice is what makes it day and night compared to anything else forced.

[oldietech]

Yeah, because it's illegal to not take the check, right? Stopping giving them checks will give them 'FREEDOM', right? Let me go steal their check and free them from this shackle...wtf!

Let's see here, a check is physical and you think removing the check removes the mental chain. I can see why you are confused.

The fact you are comparing a mental chain to a metal chain is exactly the bone I am picking. I will be happy to put a metal chain on anybody who claims is mental chain is equally bad or worse. If it's in fact no worse on a metal chain, I challenge anybody to volunteer as my slave.

There is a reason why your challenge fails on it's face. Before you can have someone voluntarily be your slave, you would need to involuntarily enslave their mind. Otherwise, you know that any mentally free person is going to reject your challenge. This doesn't prove your point. It proves mine. The fact that no one is willing to physically put themselves into slavery shows that physical chains have no power over mentally free people.

Again, you can argue all you want, I'll take it seriously when somebody volunteers it. How many physical scars and whips will you take if I can guarantee your child will never get welfare checks?

In fact, I think what you are demonstrating here is that you are voluntarily placing mental restraints on yourself. You are not arguing, you are ignoring. Ignorance is a HUGE link in the mental restraints that the ruling class use to attempt to arrest free minds. Now the second part of what you just said is somewhat interesting, but you are still stuck on the idea that something physical is doing the binding. It's not the check I'm concerned about, it's the assault on my child's spirit and mind. I believe I can handle making sure my child doesn't get welfare checks.


Do you consider that perhaps they are simply genetically disabled or victims of racism other than state instituted? It's either the fault of the government or the fault of the government, it can't be the fault of themselves or their other surroundings, right?

Yes, I do consider this. It doesn't change anything. In fact folk with disabilities are even more at risk of mental slavery from the ruling class. You again help my point along. The government offers to lighten the burden of those NATURAL physical chains at the cost of placing mental chains. This is not the role of government but it does sound like where you got the idea for someone to voluntarily bind themselves with chains YOU provide. Except you got it backwards, but you do have the concept worked out.

TLDR, I'll take a person seriously when he/she demonstrates it, talk is easy. I can say waterboarding is not preferable to having an arm cut off, does that mean you have to believe me?

And your chains are now exposed. If you are unwilling to read my response in it's entirety, then why you bother to craft a response of your own? You see, I think you did read, you just took the lazy, ignorant approach to responding. You claim you didn't read and then go right back to the same ignorant point that I originally responded to.



You aren't truly free until you can break out of that ignorant state of mind. You have to ask yourself, where did those chains come from if you did not place them on yourself? I surely didn't put them there.

[oldietech]

I am open to the possibility that some physical pain may be worth it for some freedom, BUT UNTIL I SEE IT, I WILL NOT CLAIM IT IS TRUE, AND IF I DO, I WILL ACT ON IT. I am also open to the possibility that freedom isn't always the best thing (compared to life, not having pain, not having worries...etc) Being open to being wrong is not the same as saying it's true.

See, let me explain where you are confused and where you need to cast off whatever it is that you were taught, cause it was a lie.

There is no such thing as....

SOME freedom.

There is

FREEDOM...

and there is

NO freedom.

SOME freedom is NO freedom.

Whoever taught you about freedom passed on the mental chains. Who is your master, and how would you know if you didn't even know your were bound? Would it matter to you? Why would it matter who your master is? Why would it matter if you were a slave?

Sure some folks are happy with their slave lives. Remember, slavery is not the absence of happiness, pain, and worries. Slavery is the absence of freedom.

[Pericles]

I don't really care how you spin it. If you are dependent on the government for your existence you are a slave. All it takes is for them to cut you off/reduce your "entitlements" to realize this.

Are they really dependent on government or are they the masters of the government? For who's benefit is government operating?

[otherone]

Are they really dependent on government or are they the masters of the government? For who's benefit is government operating?


http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Wall-Street.jpg

[tod evans]

For who's benefit is government operating?

Not mine!

And I don't want them to either...

[pcosmar]

Now that I actually saw the video, his point is still wrong.


http://www.websophist.com/Stupid_NoCure_FrogO.jpg

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Yeah, keep equating voluntary welfare checks with coercive physical bondage, that's the ticket!

[oldietech]

Yeah, keep equating voluntary welfare checks with coercive physical bondage, that's the ticket!

It's funny how attaching the word "voluntary" to an injustice suddenly makes it right. Mental slavery is not equal to physical slavery. It is worse.

[Feeding the Abscess]

It's funny how attaching the word "voluntary" to an injustice suddenly makes it right. Mental slavery is not equal to physical slavery. It is worse.

I'm fairly certain that physical slavery is a serious burden on one's mental state. The comparison isn't mental slavery versus physical slavery. It's dependence versus mental and physical enslavement. Escaping dependence doesn't carry with it negative consequences. Escaping slavery put the slave at risk of capture, re-enslavement, raping, torture, etc.

Comparing the two conditions isn't a serious or worthwhile exercise.

[pcosmar]

I'm fairly certain that physical slavery is a serious burden on one's mental state.


And yet one can have a free mind even when locked in a physical cage.

you may not want to find that out for yourself though.

[oldietech]

I'm fairly certain that physical slavery is a serious burden on one's mental state. The comparison isn't mental slavery versus physical slavery. It's dependence versus mental and physical enslavement. Escaping dependence doesn't carry with it negative consequences. Escaping slavery put the slave at risk of capture, re-enslavement, raping, torture, etc.

Comparing the two conditions isn't a serious or worthwhile exercise.

I am sure it is. Freedom isn't an absence of burden. In fact maintaining my freedom in thought and deed is probably the most burdensome daily chore I have. There is nothing wrong with depending on others. There is something wrong with giving up freedom for a perception of physical accommodation. This is the trap of mental slavery.

You may choose to recast mental slavery as simply a state of mind, however it is foolish to dismiss the seriousness of mental slavery. A physical slave has the mental state of mind to be aware of his condition and make the decision to escape even at the risk his own life. He is mentally free.

A mental slave is not even aware he is captive and thus will not even attempt to escape. His mental enslavement leads to his willful self imposed physical oppression.

Another physically imprisoned individual was Henry David Thoreau. You may be familiar with his "Civil Disobedience". May I suggest another of his famous works
http://thoreau.eserver.org/life1.html Life Without Principle.

Here is a small quote that I think illustrates the idea that physical freedom is only a slice of absolute freedom. And as I have said, there is no such thing as "some freedom".


[15] America is said to be the arena on which the battle of freedom is to be fought; but surely it cannot be freedom in a merely political sense that is meant. Even if we grant that the American has freed himself from a political tyrant, he is still the slave of an economical and moral tyrant. Now that the republic — the res-publica — has been settled, it is time to look after the res-privata, — the private state, — to see, as the Roman senate charged its consuls, "ne quidres-PRIVATA detrimenti caperet," that the private state receive no detriment.(15)
(http://thoreau.eserver.org/life2.html#n2)[16] Do we call this the land of the free? What is it to be free from King George and continue the slaves of King Prejudice? What is it to be born free and not to live free? What is the value of any political freedom, but as a means to moral freedom? Is it a freedom to be slaves, or a freedom to be free, of which we boast?


Same question Cliven Bundy is asking.

[osan]

This man said the blacks he saw in those houses abort their children and put their kids in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton....That's racist...

First and foremost, WHO CARES? If someone wants to be racist, that is their prerogative. If you do not understand why, you must be brain damaged.

[PRB]

There is a reason why your challenge fails on it's face. Before you can have someone voluntarily be your slave, you would need to involuntarily enslave their mind. Otherwise, you know that any mentally free person is going to reject your challenge. This doesn't prove your point. It proves mine. The fact that no one is willing to physically put themselves into slavery shows that physical chains have no power over mentally free people.

No, somebody claims slavery is preferable to something else today, so if he means it, he must be willing to take it over whatever it is he's comparing it to. The fact he ISN'T willing to do it, means he doesn't mean what he says. For unless he chooses it, what meaning is the word "better" or "preferable".

I don't need to label whoever claims slavery is better than welfare or whatever, it is what it is, I am simply putting his claim to the test.

So no, I need not enslave anybody's mind, the fact anybody would be stupid enough to claim slavery is better than modern welfare, is his problem, not mine.

[PRB]

Yeah, keep equating voluntary welfare checks with coercive physical bondage, that's the ticket!

I am not letting anybody get away with it until I see somebody act accordingly. If getting a welfare check is comparable to physical coercive bondage, a welfare recipient shouldn't mind switching one to the other, but NONE HAVE. It's always outside observers who think they know better (and probably never experienced slavery)

[PRB]

http://www.websophist.com/Stupid_NoCure_FrogO.jpg


Do you agree or not that blacks are better off as slaves? Is that a fair question to ask a simple yes/no answer to?

[oldietech]

No, somebody claims slavery is preferable to something else today, so if he means it, he must be willing to take it over whatever it is he's comparing it to. The fact he ISN'T willing to do it, means he doesn't mean what he says. For unless he chooses it, what meaning is the word "better" or "preferable".

I don't need to label whoever claims slavery is better than welfare or whatever, it is what it is, I am simply putting his claim to the test.

So no, I need not enslave anybody's mind, the fact anybody would be stupid enough to claim slavery is better than modern welfare, is his problem, not mine.

You make no sense. Cliven Bundy is not living in poverty while trapped in the system of state welfare. Here is your argument being applied to you.

If you think welfare is not slavery they go be on welfare otherwise you don't mean it when you say welfare is not slavery.

He uses the words better and preferable from his own perspective. From his perspective, there is no difference between lack of freedom do to chains and lack of freedom do to economic oppression. Which is why he wondered if blacks would be better off with physical chains vs mental chains. I think it is a valid point in the context of uniting all races under the idea of freedom.

There is no one alive today that can tell us what is like to live in physical chains expect perhaps political prisoners and criminals. I think physical slavery is a horrible and crude way of enslavement. I am just not naive enough to believe it is the only way to enslave, and I am certainly not willing to ignore other forms of slavery because they are not physically painful or have some material reward attached.

You are incapable of putting his claim to the test without attempting to corner the mind into a way of thinking whereby freedom means the lack of physical chains. It would seem that you are making it your problem, but that I believe is a side effect of the shifting of your own chains in response to this episode. I would argue that this controversial point that we are discussing has probably cause more than few people to recognize their own mental oppression. It has certainly exposed that among the casual observers who cry out "RACISM!" and stoop to even lower levels in their hatred for the man. People are even going so far as to mimic state propaganda and we even have the president of the united states making jokes about it targeting Rand Paul.

There is obviously uneasiness with the establishment who knows full well how to utilize and manipulate their mental slaves. They witnessed those chains loosen as well, thanks to Cliven Bundy speaking the truth about lack of freedom across all races. Cliven called for racial unity. If you missed that part, it's probably because that metaphorical cracking of the whip has deafened you to the call.

[kcchiefs6465]

Do you agree or not that blacks are better off as slaves? Is that a fair question to ask a simple yes/no answer to?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5mZ5FBHg0A

[PRB]

You make no sense. Cliven Bundy is not living in poverty while trapped in the system of state welfare. Here is your argument being applied to you.

If you think welfare is not slavery they go be on welfare otherwise you don't mean it when you say welfare is not slavery.

I don't need welfare to be slavery for me to not want it. BUT, I can say with a straight face that given a choice, I prefer welfare over slavery. I am willing to bet everybody who has experienced either would agree with me, but those who do not, I'd be happy to hear their perspective, and see if they can demonstrate it by actually choosing it.

I can ask ANY slave in shackles if they prefer to be NOT in shackles, but try asking anybody on welfare if they prefer to be in shackles. (assuming a person isn't in prison)

Anybody who disagrees with me is free to prove it to me.

"He uses the words better and preferable from his own perspective."

And in my perspective, being raped is preferable to eating a sandwich, the fact a person is imaginative enough to have a perspective does not mean it's free from criticism or correction, or testing of whether a person is serious about .

[pcosmar]

Do you agree or not that blacks are better off as slaves? Is that a fair question to ask a simple yes/no answer to?

I have no full understanding of the plan and purposed of the creator. How he works in each and every life.
Slavery is and was a reality. It was widely practiced at that time and for thousands of years of human existence,, and was on it's way out of common practice when this country was formed. God has used men and women as slaves to the benefit of all mankind. I would not chose it,, and would not own a slave myself.

But one,,helped to establish the earliest colonies. and taught the pilgrims to survive here.
How do you think that Indian learned to speak English?

I find it sad that people who have since been free would chose to make themselves slaves once again.. and that is Welfare.. A slave to the state.
I knew few Black people growing up,, and only made friends with some later in life,, but I saw it with the Indians here. I have seen whole generations grow up in welfare slavery.. Dependent on the state for their survival.

No,, I do not think slavery is a "good thing",,but to have opportunity to be free and to chose slavery or be tricked into it,, is worse.

[PRB]

There is no one alive today that can tell us what is like to live in physical chains expect perhaps political prisoners and criminals. I think physical slavery is a horrible and crude way of enslavement. I am just not naive enough to believe it is the only way to enslave, and I am certainly not willing to ignore other forms of slavery because they are not physically painful or have some material reward attached.

I am with you on not being ok with other forms of enslavement, but if you dare say any form of current modern enslavement in the US, other than prison, is worse than the slavery conditions in the past, again, i will challenge you to say you prefer it and actually mean it. I don't think you need to experience first hand being in shackles to know you don't like it or want it. But I can tell you being on welfare isn't the end of the world (not even close), it may not be preferable to not having a job, but it doesn't force me to not have one, and I am always free to seek employment if I don't like it. That's the difference, the choice is still there, and I am not force to stay on welfare.

[PRB]

No,, I do not think slavery is a "good thing",,but to have opportunity to be free and to chose slavery or be tricked into it,, is worse.

this here is the OBJECTIVE DIFFERENCE between pre-1860 slavery and today, YOU CAN ACTUALLY teach people to stop being dependent, and they may actually be able to get out if they tried hard enough, this is NOTHING LIKE the legal and physical impossibilities pre-1860 (people today, like you said, are TRICKED, not FORCED). A person today doesn't need a weapon to break free from the state's welfare cage, he only needs to not be handicapped, willing to put in time, and demand equality as his fellow citizens have it (short of being in prison).

If you were a pre-1860 slave, good luck running away, good luck surviving on your own, where the government does not even try to protect your right to live.

Am I not giving you enough reasons to say it's day and night difference? I am NOT saying welfare is a good thing either, but to say it's as enslaving as slavery pre-1860 is just ignorant and insulting.

[oldietech]

I don't need welfare to be slavery for me to not want it. BUT, I can say with a straight face that given a choice, I prefer welfare over slavery. I am willing to bet everybody who has experienced either would agree with me, but those who do not, I'd be happy to hear their perspective, and see if they can demonstrate it by actually choosing it.

I can ask ANY slave in shackles if they prefer to be NOT in shackles, but try asking anybody on welfare if they prefer to be in shackles. (assuming a person isn't in prison)

Anybody who disagrees with me is free to prove it to me.

"He uses the words better and preferable from his own perspective."

And in my perspective, being raped is preferable to eating a sandwich, the fact a person is imaginative enough to have a perspective does not mean it's free from criticism or correction, or testing of whether a person is serious about .

But that is a lie. It is not your perspective. You only think he wasn't serious about what he said because at this point, it is pretty obvious you don't know what he said, or you simply ignore the context and pull out the piece you don't like.

Regardless, you still fail to realize that someone who is a mental slave is not going to recognize their own captivity. So what you would be asking them would come across as you are putting it. Would you rather be a slave or on welfare is not the correct question.

The correct question is did slaves in early America live better lives than those in modern day poverty stuck on government welfare? I think that is a fair question. Here are some initial arguments.

Slaves in early America saw increasingly better standards of living and life expectancy and birthrates than their counterparts around the world. Today, we have this http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html


Minority women constitute only about 13% of the female population (age 15-44) in the United States, but they underwent approximately 36% of the abortions.According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion
On average, 1,876 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.

Is this a side effect of poverty and welfare?


Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in America. 78% of their clinics are in minority communities. Blacks make up 12% of the population, but 35% of the abortions in America. Are we being targeted? Isn't that genocide?

Sounds quite a bit worse than physical chains to me.

We could make some other comparisons, such as what happens to the men and the family unit and compare those as well. But chew on that for a minute.

[oldietech]

this here is the OBJECTIVE DIFFERENCE between pre-1860 slavery and today, YOU CAN ACTUALLY teach people to stop being dependent, and they may actually be able to get out if they tried hard enough, this is NOTHING LIKE the legal and physical impossibilities pre-1860 (people today, like you said, are TRICKED, not FORCED). A person today doesn't need a weapon to break free from the state's welfare cage, he only needs to not be handicapped, willing to put in time, and demand equality as his fellow citizens have it (short of being in prison).

If you were a pre-1860 slave, good luck running away, good luck surviving on your own, where the government does not even try to protect your right to live.

Am I not giving you enough reasons to say it's day and night difference? I am NOT saying welfare is a good thing either, but to say it's as enslaving as slavery pre-1860 is just ignorant and insulting.

No one is suggesting that at all, you are misunderstanding and putting that slant on it. what is being said is that not much has improved for many and it's possible it has gotten worse.

[PRB]

But that is a lie. It is not your perspective. You only think he wasn't serious about what he said because at this point, it is pretty obvious you don't know what he said, or you simply ignore the context and pull out the piece you don't like.


I am willing to admit I didn't hear or understand him correctly. So I will ask you again.
DID HE or DID HE NOT claim that welfare is worse than slavery?
Is there ANYBODY who has experienced either, who claims the same?



Regardless, you still fail to realize that someone who is a mental slave is not going to recognize their own captivity. So what you would be asking them would come across as you are putting it. Would you rather be a slave or on welfare is not the correct question.


Funny that you say regardless. I'll use that word too. REGARDLESS of whether a person recognizes his mental captivity, I am STILL willing to bet that mental captivity is preferable to physical captivity. I am STILL betting nobody will say he prefers physical captivity. Prove me wrong.



The correct question is did slaves in early America live better lives than those in modern day poverty stuck on government welfare? I think that is a fair question. Here are some initial arguments.


I actually think it's the same question, except one would be asking people who have first hand experience, which is supposedly more accurate. To deny this would mean I can comment on another person's life and judge its merits without being in his/her shoes.



Slaves in early America saw increasingly better standards of living and life expectancy and birthrates than their counterparts around the world. Today, we have this http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html


You are comparing slaves in the US to people around the world, that wasn't the question. Again, linking a page about genocide via abortion ignores the fact that abortion is a choice as a result of poverty, which supposedly welfare was meant to avoid, oh wait, I lost my train of thought. Is welfare breaking up families or assisting families? Do people abort more when there's more or less welfare? Help me get your conspiracy theory straight.

Ask anybody who's had an abortion. Ask anybody who wanted an abortion but couldn't. Ask all of them whether having welfare to guarantee the child wouldn't starve or aborting a baby out of fear that it might starve, which is preferable.

Wait, I thought we were talking about slave lives vs modern American blacks...where did we leave off?



Is this a side effect of poverty and welfare?

Sounds quite a bit worse than physical chains to me.

We could make some other comparisons, such as what happens to the men and the family unit and compare those as well. But chew on that for a minute.

This is worse from YOUR perspective, would you be willing to say that given 2 choices, you choose physical chains? Honestly?

Is it not fair to ask YOU, YOUR choice, since after all, it's YOUR perspective?

I am willing to say slavery is NOT preferable, and if you had me choose to live in today's world, abortion, welfare, unemployment, I'd find it still far preferable to physical shackles, in fact I'd gladly volunteer it to prove a point, I dare you to do the same to back up your nonsense claim that slavery is better.

(Don't even bother telling me X worse than Y isn't the same as saying Y is better than X, it is!)

[PRB]

No one is suggesting that at all, you are misunderstanding and putting that slant on it. what is being said is that not much has improved for many and it's possible it has gotten worse.

Have those who claim it has gotten worse for them raise their hands, if they're not in prison, I'll listen to what they say, and I'll be happy to enslave them, since it's better.

Gotten worse means the past was better, so anybody claiming that should have no problem switching. Finding outliers is a nice strategy, I'm sure I can find people who claim being murdered is better than being rich, so what?

"not much has improved" means switching to the past shouldn't be unpreferable.

[oldietech]

I am willing to admit I didn't hear or understand him correctly. So I will ask you again.
DID HE or DID HE NOT claim that welfare is worse than slavery?
Is there ANYBODY who has experienced either, who claims the same?

You should just go back and listen again.

Funny that you say regardless. I'll use that word too. REGARDLESS of whether a person recognizes his mental captivity, I am STILL willing to bet that mental captivity is preferable to physical captivity. I am STILL betting nobody will say he prefers physical captivity. Prove me wrong.

Why would I prove your wrong. A mental slave will prefer slavery. Someone who is mental free will prefer neither. I thought that would be self evident. Although if you go back and read what I already wrote (hint the matrix), you'll see you are arguing the wrong thing.

I actually think it's the same question, except one would be asking people who have first hand experience, which is supposedly more accurate. To deny this would mean I can comment on another person's life and judge its merits without being in his/her shoes.

It's not the same question tho, notice you said "except". You obviously cannot go back in time and ask, which is probably why Cliven said, "I wonder".

You are comparing slaves in the US to people around the world, that wasn't the question. Again, linking a page about genocide via abortion ignores the fact that abortion is a choice as a result of poverty, which supposedly welfare was meant to avoid, oh wait, I lost my train of thought. Is welfare breaking up families or assisting families? Do people abort more when there's more or less welfare? Help me get your conspiracy theory straight.

I am comparing slaves to slaves. I linked the page because today's black community is concerned about something much worse than physical chains and slavery. Your condescending tone and your several times you have lost track of what we are discussing is a good thing. Perhaps you will discover your free mind and fill in those gaps on your own.

Ask anybody who's had an abortion. Ask anybody who wanted an abortion but couldn't. Ask all of them whether having welfare to guarantee the child wouldn't starve or aborting a baby out of fear that it might starve, which is preferable.

This isn't about abortion. It is about the continued slavery of people via mental oppression long after the physical chains have been cast off. Asking someone which they prefer while limiting their choices is one way to mentally enslave them.

Wait, I thought we were talking about slave lives vs modern American blacks...where did we leave off?

I think you should form a coherent argument and abandon your test. You seemed confused by that line of reasoning.

This is worse from YOUR perspective, would you be willing to say that given 2 choices, you choose physical chains? Honestly?

As long as I have the ability to be 100% free, you will not give me choices. This is why your experiment fails. By accepting your 2 choices, as the only choices, I already place myself under mental slavery. So in reality you are doing exactly what the ruling class do. You say here are 2 choices that no one would naturally pick on their own. My question is, what happens if I come up with my own solution and I chose not participate with you or your state since I don't like any of your choices? Well the state will then put the physical chains on me, and you will claim I got what I deserved. Same outcome, difference is, I am still mentally free. See how that works? No? Not surprised.

Is it not fair to ask YOU, YOUR choice, since after all, it's YOUR perspective?

Sure my choice is to not participate with the state and be free. Are you ok with that? Cause the state is not. The state would either force me to accept substandard living conditions that is arguably worse than living in slavery, OR lock me up in a cage because I refused to cooperate with their schemes.

I am willing to say slavery is NOT preferable, and if you had me choose to live in today's world, abortion, welfare, unemployment, I'd find it still far preferable to physical shackles, in fact I'd gladly volunteer it to prove a point, I dare you to do the same to back up your nonsense claim that slavery is better.

No of course slavery is not preferable. What you fail to realize is that slavery is the lack of freedom. I am not willing to give up an ounce of freedom to prove that one form of slavery is better than the other. It doesn't really matter which is better to be honest, but it is arguable that slave's conditions in the early united states were better than slave conditions anywhere else in the world at the time and steadily improved, while today's mentally enslaved are watching their conditions steady deteriorate.

Tell me, what are all the differences in conditions between a slave and someone in poverty and on welfare that you can think of? Why don't you list them all out?

(Don't even bother telling me X worse than Y isn't the same as saying Y is better than X, it is!)

Doesn't matter which form of slavery is perceived to be better or worse. what matters is recognizing that slavery still exists today despite the missing physical restraints.


you are pretending as if there is some kind of choice, which is why I believe you don't understand my reasoning or Cliven's statements. The question asked by Cliven is basically, "what's the difference between then and now?"

Yes we ALL KNOW BY NOW that slaves were considered property and subhuman, legally owned, sometimes endured harsh punishment, had their families broken up, were indoctrinated refusal to educate (reading and writing prohibited).

The challenge is examining the conditions today and finding freedom from all of the above (and more).

[oldietech]

Have those who claim it has gotten worse for them raise their hands, if they're not in prison, I'll listen to what they say, and I'll be happy to enslave them, since it's better.

Gotten worse means the past was better, so anybody claiming that should have no problem switching. Finding outliers is a nice strategy, I'm sure I can find people who claim being murdered is better than being rich, so what?

"not much has improved" means switching to the past shouldn't be unpreferable.

The people that have recognized that the oppression has gotten worse will be fighting for something much better than your offer of slavery. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, you'll have to cut your own grass or pay someone to do it if you can't.

Again, you don't understand mental slavery. Those who see welfare as modern day slavery will have a major problem switching as you put it since it makes absolutely no sense to trade one form of slavery for the other.

not much has improved means IMPROVE IT, not wallow around in something perhaps "slightly" better. Are you still arguing FOR slavery instead of arguing FOR freedom?

“If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

[PRB]

you are pretending as if there is some kind of choice, which is why I believe you don't understand my reasoning or Cliven's statements. The question asked by Cliven is basically, "what's the difference between then and now?"


Physical restraints. That's the difference. Again and again, if you don't think that's a difference, I'd be happy to put them on you.

[PRB]

"Asking someone which they prefer while limiting their choices is one way to mentally enslave them. "

LOL, but telling me that one is worse than the other is your entitled opinion, right?

[PRB]

not much has improved means IMPROVE IT, not wallow around in something perhaps "slightly" better. Are you still arguing FOR slavery instead of arguing FOR freedom?


I'm not the one making the comparison. I'm definitely arguing FOR freedom, but I won't let a person saying slavery is better than something else get away with it. I recognize varying degrees of freedom, do you?

Let's see if we can agree to agree. If Cliven said instead "Slavery may be over, but there's still a long road to go to get to my ideal of freedom" would he have made the same point without the stupid controversy?

Do you admit comparing slavery to anything going on today (other than prison), is dishonest, ignorant and deserves a correction? Can I compare being raped to eating a sandwich and just say 'Well, that's just my opinion, what's your problem?' and expect you to think nothing, say nothing?

If you want to fight for more freedom, I'm with you. If you want to reduce racism, I'm with you, but how exactly is comparing welfare to shackles helping? At all?! All that does is insult people who have been in shackles who would gladly be without shackles if you gave them a choice.

"Prefer neither" is the same as prefer either. I can say being shot in the head and the heart is equally preferable, and I actually mean it.

[oldietech]

Physical restraints. That's the difference. Again and again, if you don't think that's a difference, I'd be happy to put them on you.

that is one difference. shall we examine that? what are the historical facts about slaves and physical restraints? I believe you will be surprised to learn that more than anything what held the slaves in check was the psychological impact of their initial capture along with the cruelty in punishment. It was the threat of force that kept them physically restrained. Yes slaves were shackled in transportation. Once on the plantation, the slaves were let loose to live and work. Many slaves attempted to run away. Many succeeded. Many resisted in other ways. The physical chains is some what of an embellishment of the historical record for its symbolism and imagery.

In any event, only prisoners are in chains today. Prisoners guilty of non-violent crimes make up the majority of prison population which is disproportionately black by the way. There are more people in the black community that are shackled today than their ever were in slave days. I like to see some more research on the actual numbers, but I have a hunch that less than half of the black male population in slave day United States ended up being shackled, while today, I would say that number is well over 50%

[oldietech]

I'm not the one making the comparison. I'm definitely arguing FOR freedom, but I won't let a person saying slavery is better than something else get away with it. I recognize varying degrees of freedom, do you?

Let's see if we can agree to agree. If Cliven said instead "Slavery may be over, but there's still a long road to go to get to my ideal of freedom" would he have made the same point without the stupid controversy?

Do you admit comparing slavery to anything going on today (other than prison), is dishonest, ignorant and deserves a correction? Can I compare being raped to eating a sandwich and just say 'Well, that's just my opinion, what's your problem?' and expect you to think nothing, say nothing?

If you want to fight for more freedom, I'm with you. If you want to reduce racism, I'm with you, but how exactly is comparing welfare to shackles helping? At all?! All that does is insult people who have been in shackles who would gladly be without shackles if you gave them a choice.

"Prefer neither" is the same as prefer either. I can say being shot in the head and the heart is equally preferable, and I actually mean it.

I think there are worse things than slavery. I already named one in this thread. No there are not "varying degrees of freedom". Freedom is real simple, its the ability t act, speak, and think without restraint or hindrance. There is no such thing as partial freedom. You are either restrained or you are not being restrained. You are either free or you are enslaved. There is no in between.

He most certainly could have chosen better words, he chose what he know and his point is valid. And no, the minute a white man in the media spot light opens his mouth about blacks, he is immediate cast as a racist. The controversy was a setup.

No, comparing slavery in the 1700's and slavery today is not dishonest. In fact it is ignorant to even suggest it would be dishonest. You clearly haven't been paying attention if you somehow think your have made a point.

You don't need my permission to speak. I generally don't respond to ridiculous analogies. I responded to your challenge because it shows a complete lack of understanding and I thought I may offer you some unsolicited direction on a better course of understanding this topic.

I don't think you understand slavery at all. Slavery is so much worse than simply "shackles". You still won't recognize the mental shackles which are ALWAYS on, unlike the physical shackles that prisoners today and slaves then wore. Those shackles were not on 24/7. Sure slaves then and prisoners now are physically trapped. So are people on welfare today. And just like the slaves then and prisoners now, there is a risk/reward in trying to escape.

You go on preferring and equal shot to the heart and head. I'll go on preferring neither.

[Antischism]

I think there are worse things than slavery. I already named one in this thread. No there are not "varying degrees of freedom". Freedom is real simple, its the ability t act, speak, and think without restraint or hindrance. There is no such thing as partial freedom. You are either restrained or you are not being restrained. You are either free or you are enslaved. There is no in between.

He most certainly could have chosen better words, he chose what he know and his point is valid. And no, the minute a white man in the media spot light opens his mouth about blacks, he is immediate cast as a racist. The controversy was a setup.

No, comparing slavery in the 1700's and slavery today is not dishonest. In fact it is ignorant to even suggest it would be dishonest. You clearly haven't been paying attention if you somehow think your have made a point.

You don't need my permission to speak. I generally don't respond to ridiculous analogies. I responded to your challenge because it shows a complete lack of understanding and I thought I may offer you some unsolicited direction on a better course of understanding this topic.

I don't think you understand slavery at all. Slavery is so much worse than simply "shackles". You still won't recognize the mental shackles which are ALWAYS on, unlike the physical shackles that prisoners today and slaves then wore. Those shackles were not on 24/7. Sure slaves then and prisoners now are physically trapped. So are people on welfare today. And just like the slaves then and prisoners now, there is a risk/reward in trying to escape.

You go on preferring and equal shot to the heart and head. I'll go on preferring neither.

You're delusional if you think there's a negligible or non-existent difference between being held captive, beaten, sold, having your family sold, raped, forced to work long hours under harsh conditions, etc. simply for having the wrong skin color and collecting a welfare check. Anyone who isn't fucking stupid will take the welfare check every time if offered one or the other. Hm, let's see... forced labor, beatings, rape, dehumanization, emotional abuse and the possibility of having your family sold off or steady income to use as I move around in an area much larger than a plantation, working out of my own volition and buying things to entertain myself at any time. That's a really fucking hard decision, man.

Comparing slavery and welfare is beyond absurd. If you want to make a point about how awful the welfare state is, go ahead. It can be done without resorting to a false equivalence that in the process attempts to lessen slavery in regards to American history.

Guys, maybe I would have been better off shackled in a prison a couple hundred years ago than stuck in a modern society full of fun things to buy, movies to watch, video games to play, sports to partake in, people to interact with, food to choose from, diverse music to listen to, message boards to post in, books to read, and a check to collect which would allow me to buy some of these luxuries. At least my mind would have been free! Maybe. Wait, no it wouldn't.

[squarepusher]

I have no full understanding of the plan and purposed of the creator. How he works in each and every life.
Slavery is and was a reality. It was widely practiced at that time and for thousands of years of human existence,, and was on it's way out of common practice when this country was formed. God has used men and women as slaves to the benefit of all mankind. I would not chose it,, and would not own a slave myself.

But one,,helped to establish the earliest colonies. and taught the pilgrims to survive here.
How do you think that Indian learned to speak English?

I find it sad that people who have since been free would chose to make themselves slaves once again.. and that is Welfare.. A slave to the state.
I knew few Black people growing up,, and only made friends with some later in life,, but I saw it with the Indians here. I have seen whole generations grow up in welfare slavery.. Dependent on the state for their survival.

No,, I do not think slavery is a "good thing",,but to have opportunity to be free and to chose slavery or be tricked into it,, is worse.

So I have to ask, which part of "welfare" do you think is slavery exactly? That is a pretty broad term. Is it Social Security that is slavery? Or Medi-care? Or unemployment insurance? Or food stamps? Are you opposed to Churches helping the less fortunate because it is slavery to the poor/disabled? Are Churches slave-drivers? What about private insurance claims, if your house burns down and your insurance builds a new one for you, are you their slave?

Are you opposed to Welfare for big corporations and banks? Rich people? Farming subsidies? Corporate taxes? Reduced capital gains taxes? Or was your main point just to be able to say that blacks are slaves with a straight face, and back it up with some hogwash?

[ClydeCoulter]

So I have to ask, which part of "welfare" do you think is slavery exactly? That is a pretty broad term. Is it Social Security that is slavery? Or Medi-care? Or unemployment insurance? Or food stamps? Are you opposed to Churches helping the less fortunate because it is slavery to the poor/disabled? Are Churches slave-drivers? What about private insurance claims, if your house burns down and your insurance builds a new one for you, are you their slave?

Are you opposed to Welfare for big corporations and banks? Rich people? Farming subsidies? Corporate taxes? Reduced capital gains taxes? Or was your main point just to be able to say that blacks are slaves with a straight face, and back it up with some hogwash?

I think it has to do with the rules.

Like, if a man is in the house you don't get as many (or any in some cases?) benefits or lowered benefits.

Similar to the progressive tax, there are hurdles to jump over. Make a little more, loose a lot.

edit: Some of the "benefits" that you cited are somewhat different, in that some are paid for by the person collecting them, directly or indirectly, and to greater or lesser extent.

[PRB]

You're delusional if you think there's a negligible or non-existent difference between being held captive, beaten, sold, having your family sold, raped, forced to work long hours under harsh conditions, etc. simply for having the wrong skin color and collecting a welfare check. Anyone who isn't fucking stupid will take the welfare check every time if offered one or the other. Hm, let's see... forced labor, beatings, rape, dehumanization, emotional abuse and the possibility of having your family sold off or steady income to use as I move around in an area much larger than a plantation, working out of my own volition and buying things to entertain myself at any time. That's a really fucking hard decision, man.


THANK YOU.

[AuH20]

Look at the numbers for Christ's sake. Over 70% of black children are born out of wedlock. The incarceration rate is at a staggering 50% rate for 18-25 year old African Americans. It's slavery and it's the most insidious type because many refuse to accept it for what it is (including some in this very thread). At least as chattel, there was a constant reminder of your bondage with physical restraints, but this type of bondage is far more debilitating because it's undermining your dignity & enslaving your mind without any chains.

We've gone from this:
http://puppytoob.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/07/CHAIN-3.jpg


To this:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/hightechpet/dogs-in-yard1.jpg

Is it really much different if you get beaten by your slave master or publicly funded prison guards?

[PRB]

Look at the numbers for Christ's sake. Over 70% of black children are born out of wedlock. The incarceration rate is at a staggering 50% rate for 18-25 year old African Americans. It's slavery and it's the most insidious type because many refuse to accept it for what it is (including some in this very thread). At least as chattel, there was a constant reminder of your bondage with physical restraints, but this type of bondage is far more debilitating because it's undermining your dignity & enslaving your mind without any chains.

We've gone from this:
http://puppytoob.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/07/CHAIN-3.jpg


To this:

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/hightechpet/dogs-in-yard1.jpg

Is it really much different if you get beaten by your slave master or publicly funded prison guards?

Even I acknowledged that being in prison would be comparable to slavery, despite the difference that prisoners actually committed a crime, even if it's unfairly enforced on blacks.

But to compare blacks today in general to slavery in the past ignores that most blacks are NOT in prison, which is an objective and measureable difference.

Ask any dog if he prefers chain or not chain. Sadly, even a dog knows, but a creative and imaginative person claims chain is preferable :cool:

[pcosmar]

Even I acknowledged that being in prison would be comparable to slavery, despite the difference that prisoners actually committed a crime,

Some have committed crimes.. Most have not.
I did,, and I have never bitched about it,, or called my crime anything but stupid.. I did know many inside that did not belong there at all.

[pcosmar]

"He uses the words better and preferable from his own perspective."



This is the Man you are trying to slander,, based on one sentence that was taken out of context of his entire speech.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/970350_637898106287001_6981467109084921149_n.jpg

And the man sitting behind Mr. Bundy is a volunteer and Mr. Bundys personal bodyguard.

And you still want to push this racist bullshit against a man that is standing his ground,, and speaking for all.

Why are you here?

[PRB]

Some have committed crimes.. Most have not.
I did,, and I have never bitched about it,, or called my crime anything but stupid.. I did know many inside that did not belong there at all.

if that's the case, then the problem is with racism in our justice system but that still doesn't mean blacks who have not been in prison, or are on welfare, are anywhere better off being in shackles, it's just not. If you are willing to concede that prison needs reform, blacks are still oppressed, but slavery is still much worse, I can stand with you. But if you still say slavery was better for some people, I'm going to take issue until somebody is willing to choose it.

[pcosmar]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1.0-9/1978768_10152302807153708_1093179520_n.jpg

[PRB]

This is the Man you are trying to slander,, based on one sentence that was taken out of context of his entire speech.

And the man sitting behind Mr. Bundy is a volunteer and Mr. Bundys personal bodyguard.

And you still want to push this racist bullshit against a man that is standing his ground,, and speaking for all.

Why are you here?

I am not accusing him of being racist, but I am accusing him of being wrong if he thinks being a slave is better than being a black person today. I don't care who says it, I'll get on his case until he shows he means it.

Employing and working with black people doesn't automatically make you non-racist, ask Donald Sterling.

[pcosmar]

I am not accusing him of being racist,

Yes you are. You are continuing to Troll the "Progressive" positions,, and slander the man because you either don't understand the point he was making or because you wish to defend welfare subjugation . I expect it is the latter.

http://www.getpurpose.org/publications/perspective/NewCultureOfSlavery.html
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/slavery-did-not-destroy-black-families.-welfare-did/
http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/virginia-politics/jackson-suggests-welfare-has-been-worse-than-slavery/article_257b8879-1564-5dde-928c-37713a2cd9c1.html
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704881304576094221050061598
http://cslewisjrrtolkien.classicalautographs.com/cslewis/bookexcerpts/willingslaveswelfarestate.html

And though I doubt you have any interest in the words of those far more articulate than me..
I post these links for the intelligent among us,, so they can understand YOU.

[PRB]

Yes you are. You are continuing to Troll the "Progressive" positions,, and slander the man because you either don't understand the point he was making or because you wish to defend welfare subjugation . I expect it is the latter.

http://www.getpurpose.org/publications/perspective/NewCultureOfSlavery.html
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/slavery-did-not-destroy-black-families.-welfare-did/
http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/virginia-politics/jackson-suggests-welfare-has-been-worse-than-slavery/article_257b8879-1564-5dde-928c-37713a2cd9c1.html
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704881304576094221050061598
http://cslewisjrrtolkien.classicalautographs.com/cslewis/bookexcerpts/willingslaveswelfarestate.html

And though I doubt you have any interest in the words of those far more articulate than me..
I post these links for the intelligent among us,, so they can understand YOU.

I am not pro-welfare, but I don't think it's fair to say it's worse than slavery, or even comparable.

I admit I don't understand his point, which is why I keep asking if I missed something.

[otherone]

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.


http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/048/f/4/prison_industrial_complex_motivational_poster_by_d avinci41-d76u4o1.jpg
"Voluntary" slavery...


The Sheep says: if'n ya do nuttin' wrong ya got nuttin' ta worry 'bout!

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4082/4914886306_2e584a4723.jpg