Who are the Koch Brothers and why are they so bad?

[Vanguard101]

Why are they bad?

[Natural Citizen]

I don't know, V. Opinions vary, I suppose. Let's wait for a few. Whataya say?

This oughtta be a hoot. :)

Here's a good start...

Koch ally to introduce Monsanto-backed bill to bar state GMO labeling laws (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?448892-Koch-ally-to-introduce-Monsanto-backed-bill-to-bar-state-GMO-labeling-laws&p=5480104&viewfull=1#post5480104)

[FSP-Rebel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_brothers
Lefties don't like them because they help conservative orgs/PACS compete against the unions and their funneling of money to democrats.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Deflection... taking the focus off of the USUAL SUSPECTS; Banks, the FED, Military Industrial Complex, and Government Whores.


Nothing is done in this nation without the authorization or force of the US Government.

[Keith and stuff]

Q. Who are the Koch brothers?
A. They are by far the largest backs of libertarian and liberty Republican causes in the world.

Q. Why are the Koch brothers so bad?
A. Because they not only like liberty, they have donated 100s of millions of dollars to help stop statism/bring about liberty.

[Carson]

Why are they bad?

Maybe a lot of it is that some groups foster a lot of hate that gets picked up by people wanting to fit into the pack. The same sort of thing catches a lot of people up and going against the John Burch Society. Read a little up on the brothers yourself. I think I'm more with them than against. Even when I'm against them I think I still respect them.

The thing is I'm thinking there are more than just the one pack. In fact perhaps you don't need to be part of one and find yourself a lone wolf.

A lot of us did just that in the sixties only to find ourselves amongst a whole giant world of people that thought just like us. The times are prime now for another awakening.

[Vanguard101]

Ok I coulda sworn I read somewhere that libertarians hated them LOL.

Why doesn't Rand use them as a big donor?

[Natural Citizen]

Q. Why are the Koch brothers so bad?
A. Because they not only like liberty...

BS.

I just showed you (merely 1) instance in which they have merged with industry and some politicians on their payrole to manipulate our political process of representation in a manner that disfranchises both the people as well as states rights.

Liberty my ass. Liberty for whom? Certainly not the people.

I've said many times that libertariansim serves as the stalking horse for fascism itself, and it does, and here you've reminded me of the phenomenon first hand.

[Michelangelo]

Bullshit.

I just showed you (merely 1) instance in which they have merged with industry and some politicians on their payrole to manipulated our political process of representation in a manner that disfranchises both the people as well as states rights.

Liberty my ass. Liberty for whom? Certainly not the people.

Mandatory GMO labeling laws aren't exactly pro-liberty, but that issued has been covered before.

The Koch brothers are okay ideologically. They certainly aren't featherweights when it comes to libertarian radicalism and I don't doubt that they sincerely believe in the message.

Some libertarians dislike them though because they have a different vision on how the liberty movement should promote itself. I myself have some disagreements on how they conduct themselves and certainly don't like how they support the Republicans. I wouldn't say they aren't libertarian though. They are, they simply have different views on how to promote it and that is okay.

Progressives hate them, although much of the hate is unwarranted. I'll grant progressives that the Koch's industries do sketchy things at times and we shouldn't whitewash these deeds. At the same time the Kochs must be properly noted for their favorable views on personal liberty issues such as same-sex marriage.

P.S. There is also a subset of libertarians who dislike the Kochs because they tried to take over the Cato Institute a while back.
P.P.S. And of course there are libertarians who dislike the Kochs for ever funding the Cato Institute. And so forth and so forth.

[Natural Citizen]

Mandatory GMO labeling laws aren't exactly pro-liberty, but that issued has been covered before.



But we're not done covering it. The Koch network just partnered with Monsanto and Congressman Mike Pompeo to introduce industry backed legislation that dictates that human beings don't have the right to ever know or ask what they consume into their bodies and that states have no say so in it either. This is treason on behalf of Pompeo and corruption of our political processes for representation in the highest regard. And, I'd add, a violation of basic human rights. There cannot be liberty without choice. Ever. This is anti-liberty for the people. The only liberty that I, for one, can gather from this skullduggery is for a few elites to freely disfranchise the citizens for whom these reprentatives or sellouts, to be clear, were elected to represent as well as states rights. This is corporate repatriation of the sovereignty of entire nations in it's earliest stages where the U.S. is the only place in which they can grasp a foothold for these industries prior to expanding abroad via the TPP. And, as we see, they'll certainly show no regard for the rights of the people during the process. They'll disfranchise the right of the people in a country minute, as this industry sponsored legislation demonstrates, and not lose a seconds sleep over it.

How is this liberty in any way for the people who seek a means to actually choose what they eat? It's not. And all it really does is protect the industry from the free market. This is mercantilism. And during a time when the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement is hardly whispered in the so called libertarian community. It's political malfeasance.

Heck, we've only begun. The issue is hardly covered at all. It seems to me that many in the so called libertarian community either turn a blind eye to disfranchisement, corruption and treason as long as their favorite politicians get paid along the way or simply aren't competent to know what the issue truly entails in scope. This idea that the issue has been covered and that no more questions should be asked is disingenuous at the very least.

[Keith and stuff]

BS.

I just showed you (merely 1) instance in which they have merged with industry and some politicians on their payrole to manipulate our political process of representation in a manner that disfranchises both the people as well as states rights.

Liberty my a$$. Liberty for whom? Certainly not the people.

I've said many times that libertariansim serves as the stalking horse for fascism itself, and it does, and here you've reminded me of the phenomenon first hand.

I guess some people don't like Young Americans for Liberty, Students for Liberty, Americans for Prosperity, ALEC, Drug Policy Alliance or whatever it is, Reason, the Libertarian Party, CATO and the ACLU. If you want all of the groups to go away, hate the Koch brothers. If you care anything about liberty in the US, love the Koch brothers. The choice is yours. I certainly won't try to force your hand.

https://johnlegry.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/koch_connections_imagedownload.jpeg

[Guitarzan]

Media created boogeymen for the left. The right, of course, has George Soros for their 2 minute hate.

[CPUd]

I guess some people don't like Young Americans for Liberty, Students for Liberty, Americans for Prosperity, ALEC, Drug Policy Alliance or whatever it is, Reason, the Libertarian Party, CATO and the ACLU. If you want all of the groups to go away, hate the Koch brothers. If you care anything about liberty in the US, love the Koch brothers. The choice is yours. I certainly won't try to force your hand.

I don't hate them or love them either.

[Natural Citizen]

If you care anything about liberty in the US, love the Koch brothers. The choice is yours.


Mapping the Influence of Koch Cash (http://prezi.com/5xzibopikc3a/ifgs-kochtopus-mapping-the-influence-of-koch-cash/?utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=copy)

http://kochcash.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/kochtopus.jpg

2010 cycle...

The Koch brothers’ congressional empire...

House

Adams, Sandy (R-FL) $5,000 Republican Florida

Barletta, Louis J. (R-PA) $5,000 Republican Pennsylvania

Benishek, Daniel J. (R-MI) $5,000 Republican Michigan

Berg, Rick (R-ND) $5,000 Republican North Dakota

Black, Diane Lynn (R-TN) $2,500 Republican Tennessee

Canseco, Francisco (R-TX) $2,500 Republican Texas

Chabot, Steve (R-OH) $10,000 Republican Ohio

Denham, Jeff (R-CA) $5,000 Republican California

Dold, Robert (R-IL) $5,000 Republican Illinois

Duffy, Sean P. (R-WI) $10,000 Republican Wisconsin

Duncan, Jeff (R-SC) $2,500 Republican South Carolina

Farenthold, Blake (R-TX) $5,000 Republican Texas

Fincher, Steve (R-TN) $10,000 Republican Tennessee

Flores, William (R-TX) $2,500 Republican Texas

Gardner, Cory (R-CO) $10,000 Republican Texas

Gibbs, Bob (R-OH) $5,000 Republican Ohio

Gowdy, Trey (R-SC) $5,000 Republican South Carolina

Griffin, Tim (R-AR) $7,500 Republican Arkansas

Griffith, Morgan (R-VA) $5,000 Republican Virginia

Guinta, Frank (R-NH) $5,000 Republican New Hampshire

Hanna, Richard L. (R-NY) $5,000 Republican New York

Harris, Andy (R-MD) $10,000 Republican Maryland

Hartzler, Vicky (R-MO) $5,000 Republican Missouri

Hayworth, Nan (R-NY) $5,000 Republican New York

Heck, Joe (R-NV) $10,000 Republican Nevada

Herrera, Jaime (R-WA) $5,000 Republican Washington

Huelskamp, Tim (R-KS) $7,500 Republican Kansas

Huizenga, Bill (R-MI) $2,500 Republican Michigan

Hultgren, Randy (R-IL) $5,000 Republican Illinois

Hurt, Robert (R-VA) $5,000 Republican Virginia

Kelly, Mike (R-PA) $5,000 Republican Pennsylvania

Kinzinger, Adam (R-IL) $5,000 Republican Illinois

Lankford, James (R-OK) $5,000 Republican Oklahoma

Long, Billy (R-MO) $1,000 Republican Missouri

Meehan, Patrick L. (R-PA) $7,500 Republican Pennsylvania

Mulvaney, John Michael “Mick’’ (R-SC) $5,000 Republican South Carolina

Noem, Kristi Lynn (R-SD) $5,000 Republican South Dakota

Nugent, Richard B. (R-FL) $2,500 Republican Florida

Palazzo, Steven (R-MS) $5,000 Republican Mississippi

Pearce, Steve (R-NM) $10,000 Republican New Mexico

Pompeo, Mike (R-KS) $10,000 Republican Kansas

Quayle, Ben (R-AZ) $5,000 Republican Arizona

Renacci, James B. (R-OH) $5,000 Republican Ohio

Ribble, Reid (R-WI) $5,000 Republican Wisconsin

Rigell, Scott (R-VA) $5,000 Republican Virginia

Rivera, David (R-FL) $10,000 Republican Florida

Roby, Martha (R-AL) $5,000 Republican Alabama

Ross, Dennis (R-FL) $10,000 Republican Florida

Runyan, Jon (R-NJ) $5,000 Republican New Jersey

Schilling, Bobby (R-IL) $5,000 Republican Illinois

Schweikert, David (R-AZ) $5,000 Republican Arizona

Scott, Austin (R-GA) $5,000 Republican Georgia

Scott, Tim (R-SC) $2,500 Republican South Carolina

Southerland, Steve (R-FL) $5,000 Republican Florida

Stivers, Steve (R-OH) $10,000 Republican Ohio

Tipton, Scott (R-CO) $2,500 Republican Colorado

Walberg, Tim (R-MI) $10,000 Republican Michigan

Webster, Daniel (R-FL) $5,000 Republican Florida

Womack, Steve (R-AR) $2,500 Republican Arkansas

Woodall, Rob (R-GA) $2,500 Republican Georgia

Yoder, Kevin W. (R-KS) $10,000 Republican Kansas

Young, Todd (R-IN) $5,000 Republican Indiana

Senate

Ayotte, Kelly A. (R-NH) $10,000 Republican New Hampshire

Blunt, Roy (R-MO) $10,000 Republican Missouri

Brown, Scott P. (R-MA) $5,000 Republican Massachusetts

Coats, Daniel R. (R-IN) $10,000 Republican Indiana

Hoeven, John (R-ND) $10,000 Republican North Dakota

Johnson, Ron (R-WI) $10,000 Republican Wisconsin

Kirk, Mark (R-IL) $15,000 Republican Illinois

Moran, Jerry (R-KS) $10,000 Republican Kansas

Paul, Rand (R-KY) $5,000 Republican Kentucky

Portman, Rob (R-OH) $10,000 Republican Ohio

Rubio, Marco (R-FL) $10,000 Republican Florida

Toomey, Pat (R-PA) $10,000 Republican Pennsylvania


Source: Center for Responsive Politics.


Bankrolling state politicians

Alabama $43,500

Alaska $38,613

Arizona $5,000

Arkansas $60,500

California $1,149,500

Delaware $1,800

Florida $249,195

Georgia $500,355

Idaho $500

Illinois $11,000

Indiana $2,500

Iowa $131,150

Kansas $478,270

Kentucky $3,500

Louisiana $218,291

Maine $11,100

Michigan $1,500

Minnesota $98,160

Mississippi $163,600

Missouri $2,375

Nebraska $5,000

Nevada $6,000

New Mexico $26,500

New York $274,700

North Carolina $19,000

Ohio $56,050

Oklahoma $197,375

Oregon $141,863

Pennsylvania $39,000

South Carolina $20,700

Texas $740,570

Virginia $273,402

Washington $94,050

Wisconsin $160,185

Total $5,224,803

Source: “KOCH INDUSTRIES Overview Map,” available at http://www.followthe (http://www.followthe/)-
money.org/database/natnoteview.phtml?u=1457&y=0&ince=1&incs=1.


Gubernatorial Elections

Gov. Rick Perry (R-TX) received $76,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Mary Fallin (R-OK) received $5,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D-NY) received $87,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Terry Branstad (R-IA) received $5,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI) received $43,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Tom Corbett (R-PA) received $5,000 from the Koch network

Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) received $22,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Mike Beebe (D-AR) received $4,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Sam Brownback (R-KS) received $20,000 from the Koch network

Gov. C.L. “Butch” Otter (R-ID) received $500 from the Koch network

Gov. Nathan Deal (R-GA) received $15,600 from the Koch network

Gov. Mark Dayton (D-MN) received $250 from the Koch network

Gov. Susana Martinez (R-NM) received $10,000 from the Koch network


Source: National Institute for Money in State Politics


Bankrolling and influencing the U.S. Congress...

House Energy and Commerce Committee - single-largest oil-and-gas donor to members of the committee, giving $279,500 to 22 Republicans on the committee and $32,000 to five of its Democrats.

2010 Midterm Elections - Koch network spent $2.1 million last cycle...almost $2 million of which went to Republicans.

Since 1990 - Koch network has donated $11 million to federal candidates. $9.8 million of which went to Republicans.

Voter-organizing arm of the Koch empire - Americans for Prosperity, The Americans for Prosperity Foundation, FreedomWorks,


Action Groups and Think Tanks - Koch nonprofit organizations records show they have given at least $85.9 million to the following over the last decade...

Cato Institute, Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research, Citizens for a Sound Economy 2, Environmental Literacy Council, George Mason’s Mercatus Center, Property and Environment Research Center, Americans for Prosperity Foundation, Center for Equal Opportunity,
Heritage Foundation, Institute for Energy Research, Institute for Humane Studies, Atlas Economic Research Foundation, Bill of Rights Institute, Ethics and Public Policy Center, Youth Entrepreneurs of Kansas, Citizens for Congressional Reform Foundation, Institute for Justice, Frontiers of Freedom Institute, Reason Foundation,Texas Public Policy Foundation, National Foundation for Teaching Entrepreneurship,The Phillips Foundation, Federalist Society,John Locke Foundation, Institute for the Study of Human Origins,Fund for American Studies, American Enterprise Institute & Brookings Joint Center for Regulatory Studies, James Madison Institute, Manhattan Institute, John W. Pope Center for Higher Education Policy, Washington Legal Foundation, Young America’s Foundation, Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, Leadership Institute, Foundation for Research on Economics & the Environment, American Council on Science & Health, Competitive Enterprise Institute, Laffer Center for Global Economic Growth, National Center for Policy Analysis, Association of Private Enterprise Education, American Legislative Exchange Council, Commonwealth Foundation for Public Policy Alternatives, Capital Research Center, Center for Independent Thought, Tax Foundation,National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) Legal Foundation, Independent Women’s Forum, Carbon Dioxide & Global Change Center, International Foundation for Research in Experimental Economics,Mackinac Center for Public Policy, Acton Institute, Market Based Management Institute, Fraser Institute, Media Institute, Pacific Research Institute, Heartland Institute, American Council for Capital Formation, Goldwater Institute, George C. Marshall Institute, Institute for Research on the Economics of Taxation, Libertarian Review Foundation, Americans for Tax Reform, Students in Free Enterprise, Buckeye Institute for Public Policy Solutions, Center for Excellence in Education, Center for Freedom & Prosperity Foundation,Ayn Rand Institute, National Tax Limitation Foundation,International Policy Network, North Carolina Institute for Constitutional Law, Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, Free Enterprise Education Institute, Atlantic Legal Foundation, South Carolina Policy Council for Political Economy, Center for Individual Rights, Media Research Center, Texas Justice Foundation, Future of Freedom Foundation, Foundation for Economic Education, Pacific Legal Foundation, National Taxpayers Union Foundation, Foundation for Human Development, Institute for Policy Innovation, American Spectator, Critical Review Foundation, Galen Institute, Hudson Institute

Source: Tax records for the Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation, David H. Koch Charitable Foundation, and the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation, available at guidestar.org for 2009 and compiled on Media Matters Action Network website for prior years.


Koch Industries:

Flint Hills Resources, LP - markets petroleum products, including asphalt, base oils, gasoline, jet fuel, diesel, and heating oils.

The Koch unit operates refining complexes in Alaska (North Pole), Minnesota(Pine Bend Refinery in Rosemount), and Texas (Corpus Christi). In addition,Flint Hills Resources also operates the Wisconsin pipeline, which carries products from the company’s Twin Cities-area refinery to terminals in Junction City, Waupu, Madison, and Milwaukee, and operates the MSP Airport line that delivers jet fuel to the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport. In Texas, the unit operates the Texas Pipeline system, which runs from Corpus Christi to the San Antonio, Austin, Bastrop, Waco, and Dallas/Fort Worth markets, and the DFW Airport line that delivers jet fuel from the Fort Worth-area terminal to the Dallas/Fort Worth airport. Flint Hills also operates ethanol plants in Menlo and Shell Rock, Iowa, that pro-duce 220 million gallons of ethanol annually. It is a leading producer of chemicals and related products with manufacturing facilities in Illinois, Michigan, and Texas.

It has an interest in a base lube oil facility in Louisiana as well as interests in a biodiesel feedstock development company in California. According to its website, Flint Hills produces fuels that power most of Texas, the Midwest, and the Alaska interior. The asphalt it produces is used across the Midwest and Alaska.

Koch Supply & Trading, LP - Koch Supply & Trading provides risk management in crude oil, refined petroleum products, natural gas, and other commodities. The company is an indirect subsidiary of Koch Industries. Koch Supply & Trading has locations in Houston, New York City, and Wichita as well as London, Geneva, Singapore, India, and the Netherlands.

According to its website, products traded by Koch Supply & Trading include: crude oil; refined products and derivatives; natural gas liquids; natural gas, power, and emissions; metals; financials including foreign currency, interest rates, and exchange-traded commodities; and freight.

Koch Pipeline Company - Koch Pipeline Company is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries. Many of the pipelines and terminal facilities it operates are owned by Flint Hills Resources. Koch Pipeline owns or operates 4,000 miles of pipeline to 5 Center for American Progress Action Fund | the Koch Brothers transport crude oil, refined petroleum, natural gas liquids, and other chemicals. It
operates proprietary and common carrier crude oil pipelines that deliver to refining centers in the Midwest and Texas.

Koch Pipeline operates the 540-mile South Texas system, which moves domestic crude oil to Corpus Christi. And units of the Koch subsidiary own pieces of other pipelines. For instance, the Koch Alaska Pipeline owns 3 percent of the Trans-Alaska Pipeline System, and another Koch company owns 28 percent of the Colonial Pipeline Company.


Georgia-Pacific - Georgia-Pacific became a wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries in 2005 after the two brothers paid $21 billion to take over the company and take it private. Georgia-Pacific is a manufacturer and marketer of “tissue, packaging, paper, pulp, and building products and related chemicals.”

Georgia-Pacific’s North American brands include: Quilted Northern (toilet paper), Angel Soft (toiletpaper), Brawny (paper towels), Sparkle (paper towels), Soft ‘n Gentle (toiletpaper), Mardi Gras (paper towels), Vanity Fair (paper napkins), and the Dixie
brand of tabletop products.

Georgia-Pacific has facilities in 27 states, including 25 in Georgia; 18 in Florida; 14 in Mississippi; 13 in California and Oregon; 10 in Arkansas and North Carolina; nine in Texas; eight in Alabama, South Carolina, and Wisconsin; seven in Virginia; five in Michigan and Tennessee; four in Ohio; three in Iowa, Pennsylvania, and Washington; two in Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, New
Jersey, and New York; and one in Massachusetts, Oklahoma, and West Virginia.

INVISTA B.V. - INVISTA, formerly DuPont Textiles and Interiors, is an independently managed but wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries. Koch subsidiaries acquired INVISTA from E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Company in 2004 and it was combined with Koch affiliate KoSa. INVISTA is a producer of nylon, span- dex, and polyester polymers and fibers. The materials go into clothing, carpets,
luggage, plastic bottles, and car interiors. Its products include LYCRA fiber, STAINMASTER carpet, ANTRON carpet fiber, and COOLMAX fabric.

Koch Chemical Technology Group, LLC - Koch Chemical Technology Group and its affiliates manufacture and sell pollution-control equipment. Affiliates include: Koch-Glitsch, LP; Koch Membrane Systems, Inc.; Koch Heat Transfer Company, LP; John Zink Company, LLC; Optimized Process Designs, Inc.; and Koch Knight LLC.

Koch Mineral Services, LLC - Koch Minerals and its affiliates are among the largest dry-bulk commodity handlers. It markets or trades 40 million tons of product per year. Koch Minerals also has direct or indirect subsidiaries that collectively are one of the world’s largest
producers and marketers of nitrogen fertilizers.

Those companies include: Koch Nitrogen Company (Koch Fertilizer), LLC; Koch Nitrogen International, Sárl and Koch Fertilizer Canada.
Koch Nitrogen and its affiliates have personnel in Wichita; Brandon, Manitoba; Geneva; London; Cayman Islands; Paris; and Beijing.
They also have international operations and interests in Venezuela, Manitoba, and Trinidad and Tobago.

Matador Cattle Company - Matador Cattle Company is a key division of Koch Agriculture Company and an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries.

The company operates ranches that together comprise 425,000 managed acres, of which 240,000 are deeded acres, and support 15,000 cattle in production herds.

It operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas, and Spring Creek in Kansas.

Given the array of industries in which Koch Industries is involved, from energy to agriculture to timber, all of which fall under government oversight, what agency is in charge of regulation and what regulations are enforced are of great importance to the companies’ bottom line.

Since Koch Industries deals in commodity trading, for example, they have a business interest in whether the Commodity Futures Trading Commission has the resources to ensure oil speculators play by the rules. And given its oil-and-gas interests, they have a business interest in whether the Environmental Protection Agency has the resources to crack down on polluters to ensure public health.


Source: “Koch Industries, Inc. - Locations,” available at http://www.kochind.com/locations.asp (http://www.kochind.com/locations.asp).

[Vanguard101]

So good or bad?

[fr33]

Neither good or bad. They seem to act in order to benefit their self interest. Some people don't like them because they are rich and donate to political causes. They aren't as strict in their support of a philosophy as many of us are and seem to support a more gradual progress towards liberty.

You can read Natural Citizen's posts about them. He has an agenda against GMOs so he wants to use force to make people label their products if they have or don't have GMOs. Maybe he has an axe to grind with fossil fuels too. I don't know. But I don't have philisophically a problem with either.

[Keith and stuff]

So good or bad?
From a pro-liberty financial donations point-of-view, they are the 2 best people to ever walk the Earth.

[LatinsforPaul]

Bad history...

The Kochtopus vs. Murray N. Rothbard (http://archive.lewrockwell.com/gordon/gordon37.html)


Unfortunately, the efforts of the Kochtopus against the Mises Institute have continued to the present. The current campaign for the presidency of Ron Paul has secured for libertarian ideas a greater public hearing than ever before. But owing to Paul's long association with Rothbard and Rockwell, his campaign had little appeal to Cato. High officials of Cato cooperated with James Kirchick's malicious smears against him in The New Republic. (After his losing Senate campaign to Phil Gramm, Paul had been employed by Koch as chairman of Citizens for a Sound Economy, but his contract was not renewed. Like Rothbard, Ron Paul is a man of principle and would not compromise on his advocacy of the gold standard and opposition to the Federal Reserve System. Charles Koch did not want this: such measures would hardly help him gain influence with the Republican Party, to which, if I am not mistaken, he and his brother are the largest private contributors.Further, Paul would have no part of Koch's efforts to have the CSE, beneath free market rhetoric, lobby to promote legislation beneficial to his business interests.) It should come as no surprise that Matt Welch, the new editor of Reason, has published a viciously negative piece against Rockwell and Paul. Koch is a large funder of the magazine, and, as Murray Rothbard learned to his cost, he expects those he funds to obey his dictates.

[rpfocus]

BS.

I just showed you (merely 1) instance in which they have merged with industry and some politicians on their payrole to manipulate our political process of representation in a manner that disfranchises both the people as well as states rights.

Liberty my ass. Liberty for whom? Certainly not the people.

I've said many times that libertariansim serves as the stalking horse for fascism itself, and it does, and here you've reminded me of the phenomenon first hand.

Agreed. I'm a bit surprised by the way some are gushing over these guys. Yes, they donate heavily to Republican candidates - some of which trickles down to Liberty candidates. However, I'm not convinced by a long shot that the Koch Brothers are interested in Ron Paul type Liberty. In fact, I believe the LAST thing these guys would want is Liberty in the form that many here would like.

[jllundqu]

They want what all men of power want... more power and more influence. Sometimes that power and influence benefits so-called liberty candidates, other times it serves the almighty dollar.

I don't particularly care about the Koch brothers or their money. They do donate a ton of money to charities, hospitals, and the like... which is good. I just think there is too much hype about them. They have money and want/have a wide sphere of influence... who cares?

[AuH20]

Why are they bad?

because they are not progressive billionaires like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates.

[cajuncocoa]

because they are not progressive billionaires like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates.
They may not be progressive, but being billionaires like Buffet, Gates, and Soros, they also want what every other billionaire wants: power and influence. Some things should never be for sale, no matter what one's political ideology is.

[EBounding]

Because if you don't hate them your progressive friends won't think you're cool anymore.

[donnay]

They may not be progressive, but being billionaires like Buffet, Gates, and Soros, they also want what every other billionaire wants: power and influence. Some things should never be for sale, no matter what one's political ideology is.

QFT.

Lots of people are so stuck in the phony left/right paradigm.

[angelatc]

Neither good or bad. They seem to act in order to benefit their self interest. Some people don't like them because they are rich and donate to political causes. They aren't as strict in their support of a philosophy as many of us are and seem to support a more gradual progress towards liberty.

You can read Natural Citizen's posts about them. He has an agenda against GMOs so he wants to use force to make people label their products if they have or don't have GMOs. Maybe he has an axe to grind with fossil fuels too. I don't know. But I don't have philisophically a problem with either.

I think it's a "she," but check this out:


I've said many times that libertariansim serves as the stalking horse for fascism

Apparently she has issues with libertarianism too. And let's not forget that she has proudly claimed that all her "news" comes from a communist propaganda station (http://www.cjr.org/feature/what_is_russia_today.php?page=all).

[angelatc]

Agreed. I'm a bit surprised by the way some are gushing over these guys. Yes, they donate heavily to Republican candidates - some of which trickles down to Liberty candidates. However, I'm not convinced by a long shot that the Koch Brothers are interested in Ron Paul type Liberty.

Did you know that one of them was the Libertarian Party's vice - presidential candidate once?

[twomp]

Because if you don't hate them your progressive friends won't think you're cool anymore.

AND if you don't worship the ground they walk on, your "conservative" friends won't think you're cool anymore. There is no problem with them being rich. The problem comes when they use their money, power and influence to get the government to do their bidding. IF the were such liberty lovers, they would have donated more than 0 dollars to Ron Paul's presidential runs. Billionaire who claim they are liberty lovers and yet can't even max out $2,500 towards Ron Paul's campaigns.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Did you know that one of them was the Libertarian Party's vice - presidential candidate once?

And then they destroyed the LP and Cato by removing the philosophical principles from these groups.

[otherone]

I've said many times that libertariansim serves as the stalking horse for fascism itself

Can you please explain this statement?
Thanks.

[ZENemy]

Deflection... taking the focus off of the USUAL SUSPECTS; Banks, the FED, Military Industrial Complex, and Government Whores.


Nothing is done in this nation without the authorization or force of the US Government.

Exactly this.

[rpfocus]

Did you know that one of them was the Libertarian Party's vice - presidential candidate once?

Actually, I did not. However, I believe the LP party of 1980 is radically different from today. From what I gather, David Koch thought Ronald Reagan was too liberal. Cant imagine him wanting to meet up with the 'hippies' voting for Gary Johnson today. I'm currently a registered Libertarian, and although I would have been too young to be politically active in 1980, I can't imagine I would have ever voted for a ticket with David Koch on it.

[angelatc]

Actually, I did not. However, I believe the LP party of 1980 is radically different from today. From what I gather, David Koch thought Ronald Reagan was too liberal. Cant imagine him wanting to meet up with the 'hippies' voting for Gary Johnson today. I'm currently a registered Libertarian, and although I would have been too young to be politically active in 1980, I can't imagine I would have ever voted for a ticket with David Koch on it.

There's a good chance that he matured politically. There's an equally good chance that the same thing will happen to you.

[69360]

I don't think they are bad. I don't trust their motivations. I think they serve their own self interests more than any cause. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but they aren't forthright about it.

[anaconda]

They donated to Andrew Cuomo? And not to Amash or Massie?

[angelatc]

They donated to Andrew Cuomo? And not to Amash or Massie?

They have donated to Amash, Rand Paul, and Massie.

[rpfocus]

There's a good chance that he matured politically. There's an equally good chance that the same thing will happen to you.

Yeesh, I hope not. They didn't support Ron Paul and I did. If being 'politically mature' caused them to arrive at the decision to not support Ron Paul, then I want NO part of that. They threw their piles of money behind Mittens for Christ's sake.

[compromise]

They have donated to Amash, Rand Paul, and Massie.

NC conveniently leaves off Amash & Massie, among others, every time he posts this. I suggest he edit them into his post next time.

Mapping the Influence of Koch Cash (http://prezi.com/5xzibopikc3a/ifgs-kochtopus-mapping-the-influence-of-koch-cash/?utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=copy)

http://kochcash.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/kochtopus.jpg

2010 cycle...

The Koch brothers’ congressional empire...

House

Adams, Sandy (R-FL) $5,000 Republican Florida

Barletta, Louis J. (R-PA) $5,000 Republican Pennsylvania

Benishek, Daniel J. (R-MI) $5,000 Republican Michigan

Berg, Rick (R-ND) $5,000 Republican North Dakota

Black, Diane Lynn (R-TN) $2,500 Republican Tennessee

Canseco, Francisco (R-TX) $2,500 Republican Texas

Chabot, Steve (R-OH) $10,000 Republican Ohio

Denham, Jeff (R-CA) $5,000 Republican California

Dold, Robert (R-IL) $5,000 Republican Illinois

Duffy, Sean P. (R-WI) $10,000 Republican Wisconsin

Duncan, Jeff (R-SC) $2,500 Republican South Carolina

Farenthold, Blake (R-TX) $5,000 Republican Texas

Fincher, Steve (R-TN) $10,000 Republican Tennessee

Flores, William (R-TX) $2,500 Republican Texas

Gardner, Cory (R-CO) $10,000 Republican Texas

Gibbs, Bob (R-OH) $5,000 Republican Ohio

Gowdy, Trey (R-SC) $5,000 Republican South Carolina

Griffin, Tim (R-AR) $7,500 Republican Arkansas

Griffith, Morgan (R-VA) $5,000 Republican Virginia

Guinta, Frank (R-NH) $5,000 Republican New Hampshire

Hanna, Richard L. (R-NY) $5,000 Republican New York

Harris, Andy (R-MD) $10,000 Republican Maryland

Hartzler, Vicky (R-MO) $5,000 Republican Missouri

Hayworth, Nan (R-NY) $5,000 Republican New York

Heck, Joe (R-NV) $10,000 Republican Nevada

Herrera, Jaime (R-WA) $5,000 Republican Washington

Huelskamp, Tim (R-KS) $7,500 Republican Kansas

Huizenga, Bill (R-MI) $2,500 Republican Michigan

Hultgren, Randy (R-IL) $5,000 Republican Illinois

Hurt, Robert (R-VA) $5,000 Republican Virginia

Kelly, Mike (R-PA) $5,000 Republican Pennsylvania

Kinzinger, Adam (R-IL) $5,000 Republican Illinois

Lankford, James (R-OK) $5,000 Republican Oklahoma

Long, Billy (R-MO) $1,000 Republican Missouri

Meehan, Patrick L. (R-PA) $7,500 Republican Pennsylvania

Mulvaney, John Michael “Mick’’ (R-SC) $5,000 Republican South Carolina

Noem, Kristi Lynn (R-SD) $5,000 Republican South Dakota

Nugent, Richard B. (R-FL) $2,500 Republican Florida

Palazzo, Steven (R-MS) $5,000 Republican Mississippi

Pearce, Steve (R-NM) $10,000 Republican New Mexico

Pompeo, Mike (R-KS) $10,000 Republican Kansas

Quayle, Ben (R-AZ) $5,000 Republican Arizona

Renacci, James B. (R-OH) $5,000 Republican Ohio

Ribble, Reid (R-WI) $5,000 Republican Wisconsin

Rigell, Scott (R-VA) $5,000 Republican Virginia

Rivera, David (R-FL) $10,000 Republican Florida

Roby, Martha (R-AL) $5,000 Republican Alabama

Ross, Dennis (R-FL) $10,000 Republican Florida

Runyan, Jon (R-NJ) $5,000 Republican New Jersey

Schilling, Bobby (R-IL) $5,000 Republican Illinois

Schweikert, David (R-AZ) $5,000 Republican Arizona

Scott, Austin (R-GA) $5,000 Republican Georgia

Scott, Tim (R-SC) $2,500 Republican South Carolina

Southerland, Steve (R-FL) $5,000 Republican Florida

Stivers, Steve (R-OH) $10,000 Republican Ohio

Tipton, Scott (R-CO) $2,500 Republican Colorado

Walberg, Tim (R-MI) $10,000 Republican Michigan

Webster, Daniel (R-FL) $5,000 Republican Florida

Womack, Steve (R-AR) $2,500 Republican Arkansas

Woodall, Rob (R-GA) $2,500 Republican Georgia

Yoder, Kevin W. (R-KS) $10,000 Republican Kansas

Young, Todd (R-IN) $5,000 Republican Indiana

Senate

Ayotte, Kelly A. (R-NH) $10,000 Republican New Hampshire

Blunt, Roy (R-MO) $10,000 Republican Missouri

Brown, Scott P. (R-MA) $5,000 Republican Massachusetts

Coats, Daniel R. (R-IN) $10,000 Republican Indiana

Hoeven, John (R-ND) $10,000 Republican North Dakota

Johnson, Ron (R-WI) $10,000 Republican Wisconsin

Kirk, Mark (R-IL) $15,000 Republican Illinois

Moran, Jerry (R-KS) $10,000 Republican Kansas

Paul, Rand (R-KY) $5,000 Republican Kentucky

Portman, Rob (R-OH) $10,000 Republican Ohio

Rubio, Marco (R-FL) $10,000 Republican Florida

Toomey, Pat (R-PA) $10,000 Republican Pennsylvania


Source: Center for Responsive Politics.


Bankrolling state politicians

Alabama $43,500

Alaska $38,613

Arizona $5,000

Arkansas $60,500

California $1,149,500

Delaware $1,800

Florida $249,195

Georgia $500,355

Idaho $500

Illinois $11,000

Indiana $2,500

Iowa $131,150

Kansas $478,270

Kentucky $3,500

Louisiana $218,291

Maine $11,100

Michigan $1,500

Minnesota $98,160

Mississippi $163,600

Missouri $2,375

Nebraska $5,000

Nevada $6,000

New Mexico $26,500

New York $274,700

North Carolina $19,000

Ohio $56,050

Oklahoma $197,375

Oregon $141,863

Pennsylvania $39,000

South Carolina $20,700

Texas $740,570

Virginia $273,402

Washington $94,050

Wisconsin $160,185

Total $5,224,803

Source: “KOCH INDUSTRIES Overview Map,” available at http://www.followthe (http://www.followthe/)-
money.org/database/natnoteview.phtml?u=1457&y=0&ince=1&incs=1.


Gubernatorial Elections

Gov. Rick Perry (R-TX) received $76,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Mary Fallin (R-OK) received $5,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D-NY) received $87,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Terry Branstad (R-IA) received $5,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI) received $43,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Tom Corbett (R-PA) received $5,000 from the Koch network

Gov. John Kasich (R-OH) received $22,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Mike Beebe (D-AR) received $4,000 from the Koch network

Gov. Sam Brownback (R-KS) received $20,000 from the Koch network

Gov. C.L. “Butch” Otter (R-ID) received $500 from the Koch network

Gov. Nathan Deal (R-GA) received $15,600 from the Koch network

Gov. Mark Dayton (D-MN) received $250 from the Koch network

Gov. Susana Martinez (R-NM) received $10,000 from the Koch network


Source: National Institute for Money in State Politics


Bankrolling and influencing the U.S. Congress...

House Energy and Commerce Committee - single-largest oil-and-gas donor to members of the committee, giving $279,500 to 22 Republicans on the committee and $32,000 to five of its Democrats.

2010 Midterm Elections - Koch network spent $2.1 million last cycle...almost $2 million of which went to Republicans.

Since 1990 - Koch network has donated $11 million to federal candidates. $9.8 million of which went to Republicans.

Voter-organizing arm of the Koch empire - Americans for Prosperity, The Americans for Prosperity Foundation, FreedomWorks,


Action Groups and Think Tanks - Koch nonprofit organizations records show they have given at least $85.9 million to the following over the last decade...

Cato Institute, Pioneer Institute for Public Policy Research, Citizens for a Sound Economy 2, Environmental Literacy Council, George Mason’s Mercatus Center, Property and Environment Research Center, Americans for Prosperity Foundation, Center for Equal Opportunity,
Heritage Foundation, Institute for Energy Research, Institute for Humane Studies, Atlas Economic Research Foundation, Bill of Rights Institute, Ethics and Public Policy Center, Youth Entrepreneurs of Kansas, Citizens for Congressional Reform Foundation, Institute for Justice, Frontiers of Freedom Institute, Reason Foundation,Texas Public Policy Foundation, National Foundation for Teaching Entrepreneurship,The Phillips Foundation, Federalist Society,John Locke Foundation, Institute for the Study of Human Origins,Fund for American Studies, American Enterprise Institute & Brookings Joint Center for Regulatory Studies, James Madison Institute, Manhattan Institute, John W. Pope Center for Higher Education Policy, Washington Legal Foundation, Young America’s Foundation, Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, Leadership Institute, Foundation for Research on Economics & the Environment, American Council on Science & Health, Competitive Enterprise Institute, Laffer Center for Global Economic Growth, National Center for Policy Analysis, Association of Private Enterprise Education, American Legislative Exchange Council, Commonwealth Foundation for Public Policy Alternatives, Capital Research Center, Center for Independent Thought, Tax Foundation,National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) Legal Foundation, Independent Women’s Forum, Carbon Dioxide & Global Change Center, International Foundation for Research in Experimental Economics,Mackinac Center for Public Policy, Acton Institute, Market Based Management Institute, Fraser Institute, Media Institute, Pacific Research Institute, Heartland Institute, American Council for Capital Formation, Goldwater Institute, George C. Marshall Institute, Institute for Research on the Economics of Taxation, Libertarian Review Foundation, Americans for Tax Reform, Students in Free Enterprise, Buckeye Institute for Public Policy Solutions, Center for Excellence in Education, Center for Freedom & Prosperity Foundation,Ayn Rand Institute, National Tax Limitation Foundation,International Policy Network, North Carolina Institute for Constitutional Law, Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, Free Enterprise Education Institute, Atlantic Legal Foundation, South Carolina Policy Council for Political Economy, Center for Individual Rights, Media Research Center, Texas Justice Foundation, Future of Freedom Foundation, Foundation for Economic Education, Pacific Legal Foundation, National Taxpayers Union Foundation, Foundation for Human Development, Institute for Policy Innovation, American Spectator, Critical Review Foundation, Galen Institute, Hudson Institute

Source: Tax records for the Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation, David H. Koch Charitable Foundation, and the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation, available at guidestar.org for 2009 and compiled on Media Matters Action Network website for prior years.


Koch Industries:

Flint Hills Resources, LP - markets petroleum products, including asphalt, base oils, gasoline, jet fuel, diesel, and heating oils.

The Koch unit operates refining complexes in Alaska (North Pole), Minnesota(Pine Bend Refinery in Rosemount), and Texas (Corpus Christi). In addition,Flint Hills Resources also operates the Wisconsin pipeline, which carries products from the company’s Twin Cities-area refinery to terminals in Junction City, Waupu, Madison, and Milwaukee, and operates the MSP Airport line that delivers jet fuel to the Minneapolis/St. Paul airport. In Texas, the unit operates the Texas Pipeline system, which runs from Corpus Christi to the San Antonio, Austin, Bastrop, Waco, and Dallas/Fort Worth markets, and the DFW Airport line that delivers jet fuel from the Fort Worth-area terminal to the Dallas/Fort Worth airport. Flint Hills also operates ethanol plants in Menlo and Shell Rock, Iowa, that pro-duce 220 million gallons of ethanol annually. It is a leading producer of chemicals and related products with manufacturing facilities in Illinois, Michigan, and Texas.

It has an interest in a base lube oil facility in Louisiana as well as interests in a biodiesel feedstock development company in California. According to its website, Flint Hills produces fuels that power most of Texas, the Midwest, and the Alaska interior. The asphalt it produces is used across the Midwest and Alaska.

Koch Supply & Trading, LP - Koch Supply & Trading provides risk management in crude oil, refined petroleum products, natural gas, and other commodities. The company is an indirect subsidiary of Koch Industries. Koch Supply & Trading has locations in Houston, New York City, and Wichita as well as London, Geneva, Singapore, India, and the Netherlands.

According to its website, products traded by Koch Supply & Trading include: crude oil; refined products and derivatives; natural gas liquids; natural gas, power, and emissions; metals; financials including foreign currency, interest rates, and exchange-traded commodities; and freight.

Koch Pipeline Company - Koch Pipeline Company is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries. Many of the pipelines and terminal facilities it operates are owned by Flint Hills Resources. Koch Pipeline owns or operates 4,000 miles of pipeline to 5 Center for American Progress Action Fund | the Koch Brothers transport crude oil, refined petroleum, natural gas liquids, and other chemicals. It
operates proprietary and common carrier crude oil pipelines that deliver to refining centers in the Midwest and Texas.

Koch Pipeline operates the 540-mile South Texas system, which moves domestic crude oil to Corpus Christi. And units of the Koch subsidiary own pieces of other pipelines. For instance, the Koch Alaska Pipeline owns 3 percent of the Trans-Alaska Pipeline System, and another Koch company owns 28 percent of the Colonial Pipeline Company.


Georgia-Pacific - Georgia-Pacific became a wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries in 2005 after the two brothers paid $21 billion to take over the company and take it private. Georgia-Pacific is a manufacturer and marketer of “tissue, packaging, paper, pulp, and building products and related chemicals.”

Georgia-Pacific’s North American brands include: Quilted Northern (toilet paper), Angel Soft (toiletpaper), Brawny (paper towels), Sparkle (paper towels), Soft ‘n Gentle (toiletpaper), Mardi Gras (paper towels), Vanity Fair (paper napkins), and the Dixie
brand of tabletop products.

Georgia-Pacific has facilities in 27 states, including 25 in Georgia; 18 in Florida; 14 in Mississippi; 13 in California and Oregon; 10 in Arkansas and North Carolina; nine in Texas; eight in Alabama, South Carolina, and Wisconsin; seven in Virginia; five in Michigan and Tennessee; four in Ohio; three in Iowa, Pennsylvania, and Washington; two in Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, New
Jersey, and New York; and one in Massachusetts, Oklahoma, and West Virginia.

INVISTA B.V. - INVISTA, formerly DuPont Textiles and Interiors, is an independently managed but wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries. Koch subsidiaries acquired INVISTA from E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Company in 2004 and it was combined with Koch affiliate KoSa. INVISTA is a producer of nylon, span- dex, and polyester polymers and fibers. The materials go into clothing, carpets,
luggage, plastic bottles, and car interiors. Its products include LYCRA fiber, STAINMASTER carpet, ANTRON carpet fiber, and COOLMAX fabric.

Koch Chemical Technology Group, LLC - Koch Chemical Technology Group and its affiliates manufacture and sell pollution-control equipment. Affiliates include: Koch-Glitsch, LP; Koch Membrane Systems, Inc.; Koch Heat Transfer Company, LP; John Zink Company, LLC; Optimized Process Designs, Inc.; and Koch Knight LLC.

Koch Mineral Services, LLC - Koch Minerals and its affiliates are among the largest dry-bulk commodity handlers. It markets or trades 40 million tons of product per year. Koch Minerals also has direct or indirect subsidiaries that collectively are one of the world’s largest
producers and marketers of nitrogen fertilizers.

Those companies include: Koch Nitrogen Company (Koch Fertilizer), LLC; Koch Nitrogen International, Sárl and Koch Fertilizer Canada.
Koch Nitrogen and its affiliates have personnel in Wichita; Brandon, Manitoba; Geneva; London; Cayman Islands; Paris; and Beijing.
They also have international operations and interests in Venezuela, Manitoba, and Trinidad and Tobago.

Matador Cattle Company - Matador Cattle Company is a key division of Koch Agriculture Company and an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries.

The company operates ranches that together comprise 425,000 managed acres, of which 240,000 are deeded acres, and support 15,000 cattle in production herds.

It operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas, and Spring Creek in Kansas.

Given the array of industries in which Koch Industries is involved, from energy to agriculture to timber, all of which fall under government oversight, what agency is in charge of regulation and what regulations are enforced are of great importance to the companies’ bottom line.

Since Koch Industries deals in commodity trading, for example, they have a business interest in whether the Commodity Futures Trading Commission has the resources to ensure oil speculators play by the rules. And given its oil-and-gas interests, they have a business interest in whether the Environmental Protection Agency has the resources to crack down on polluters to ensure public health.


Source: “Koch Industries, Inc. - Locations,” available at http://www.kochind.com/locations.asp (http://www.kochind.com/locations.asp).
Official soundtrack to this post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFS4zYWxzNA


And then they destroyed the LP and Cato by removing the philosophical principles from these groups.

Rather ironic that you've got the name of a Koch group in your username.

[angelatc]

NC conveniently leaves off Amash & Massie, among others, every time he posts this. I suggest he edit them into his post next time.



And never points to this 2012 Op Ed: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443847404577629841476562610.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop


“To end cronyism we must end government’s ability to dole out favors and rig the market.”

David Koch supports legal weed, gay marriage and ending wars. He is apparently not an ideologue when it comes to donating though, which I think some of us simply can't relate to.

[Tywysog Cymru]

They gave to both Ayotte and Paul? Very strange.:toady:

[angelatc]

They gave to both Ayotte and Paul? Very strange.:toady:

It is strange for us, but they're Republicans first and foremost.

[Natural Citizen]

NC conveniently leaves off Amash & Massie, among others, every time he posts this. I suggest he edit them into his post next time.



Well...this data is taken from the 2010 cycle. As I recall, Massie was just announced his intention to run for the office of Lewis County Judge Executive in 2010. As for Justin, did he receive money from them in 2010? I don't think so. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

But sure...will certainly update the money trail for the current cycle. Just haven't really felt like it, compromise.

[Natural Citizen]

There's a good chance that he matured politically.

You know...there's also a very good chance that a frog wouldn't bump his rear end on the rocks if he had wings. Of course, Mr. Frog doesn't have wings. And so he's hopping around with a sore butt a lot of the time.

[Natural Citizen]

Can you please explain this statement?
Thanks.


Here you go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Rather ironic that you've got the name of a Koch group in your username.

When I created my account here, our campus group was created without prior knowledge of the national SFL organization. Needless to say after our members attended the Midwestern conference at University of Chicago held by SFL, we were disappointed in the Republican guests they invited to speak. And then I found out about how the Koch brothers screwed over Rothbard.

We ended up transitioning to YAL in 2012.

[kcchiefs6465]

Here you go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse
Right.

And while you've sourced a definition of "stalking horse" you've yet to answer what specifically you are referring to.

I would say the stalking horse of fascism is collectivism. A large brand (though not the only) of collectivists are progressives.

It's odd you keep saying this while providing simply veiled "evidence" or allusions of it being so.

Can you expound a little [more]?

[Natural Citizen]

Right.

And while you've sourced a definition of "stalking horse" you've yet to answer what specifically you are referring to.

I would say the stalking horse of fascism is collectivism. A large brand (though not the only) of collectivists are progressives.

It's odd you keep saying this while providing simply veiled "evidence" or allusions of it being so.

Can you expound a little [more]?

Sure. Although I've described the phenomenon in depth elswhere more than once around the boards when it has come up. It's disingenuous to infer that I haven't.

The definition of fascism is the merge of corporation and state. Period. I just shared with you the fact that the Koch network has merged with Monsanto and aquired the services of Congressman Mike Pompeo (who has received more money from these two than anyone else in office) to introduce and attempt the industry backed legislation that specifically says that the natural citizen has no right to know or establish any mechanism to act upon their right to ever ask what it is that they are consuming into their bodies. This corporate merge with the government by way of a congressman like Miike Pompeo to legislate on behalf of these corporate interests is fascism by any sense of the word.

And here some of us are selling the Koch brothers like they are some kind of savior of liberty for the people. That's the biggest load of crap I've read on these boards. These people, along with Pompeo are disfranchising the people, bypassing the people, assuming the name of the people and operating from within the process of representation that was designed for the people. But here, in this case, the people, the real ones, have no representation or say so in the matter whatsoever. Only the interests who have aquired the services of Pompeo for a couple of hundred thousand dollars to buy a little government.

This is yet another example of a fascist model being pawned from within the liberty community as some sort of march for liberty but what is essentially happening here are that the people themselves are being disfranchised.

Now, It's early and I don't even have coffee yet so maybe I'll come back once I'm a bit more awake and explain what we have happening within the liberty community as some continue to prop up these corrupt, treasonous companies and elected representatives as some sort of liberty minded supermen as they use our processes of representation to hijack government and disfranchise the people.

There is no veiled evidence of anything. They're doing it live and in your face. And they are being celebrated for it within the liberty community.

[unknown]

Apparently they use their money to lobby politicians.

But somehow theyre more evil than the zillion other groups that do the same thing?

[otherone]

The definition of fascism is the merge of corporation and state. Period.

Thank you for the clarification, although I was hoping for something a little meatier. I disagree with your definition of fascism completely. What you are describing is corporatism, which is at odds with fascism. Corporate Oligarchy is international, and is at odds with Nationalism, the driving force behind fascism. I was hoping you could draw a link from closet fascists to present liberty types, in that fascists "take the liberty pulse" of the population by voicing libertarian causes.

[Natural Citizen]

Thank you for the clarification, although I was hoping for something a little meatier. I disagree with your definition of fascism completely. What you are describing is corporatism, which is at odds with fascism. Corporate Oligarchy is international, and is at odds with Nationalism, the driving force behind fascism. I was hoping you could draw a link from closet fascists to present liberty types, in that fascists "take the liberty pulse" of the population by voicing libertarian causes.

Oh. Ok. I'll have to think of a really good one. One that cannot be contested. I'm probably going to disagree with you on how fascism is defined and applicable though. I've covered this in a few different threads of late. Specifically with Monsanto and the particular thing that I've brought up here regarding Pompeo and these corporate raiders. I think some of it is in the foreign policy section but it's scattered about in other areas as well. I was thinking about merging them all into a single thread thoug before they are lost.

In the mean time, what do you think about this? Seems like a case where industry manipulated the courts to disfranchise some kids from their first amendment right for the rest of their lives. A corporate repatriation of the constitutional rights of a new generation.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?420700-The-Top-5-Lies-About-Fracking&p=5503682&viewfull=1#post5503682

[kcchiefs6465]

Sure. Although I've described the phenomenon in depth elswhere more than once around the boards when it has come up. It's disingenuous to infer that I haven't.

The definition of fascism is the merge of corporation and state. Period. I just shared with you the fact that the Koch network has merged with Monsanto and aquired the services of Congressman Mike Pompeo (who has received more money from these two than anyone else in office) to introduce and attempt the industry backed legislation that specifically says that the natural citizen has no right to know or establish any mechanism to act upon their right to ever ask what it is that they are consuming into their bodies. This corporate merge with the government by way of a congressman like Miike Pompeo to legislate on behalf of these corporate interests is fascism by any sense of the word.

And here some of us are selling the Koch brothers like they are some kind of savior of liberty for the people. That's the biggest load of crap I've read on these boards. These people, along with Pompeo are disfranchising the people, bypassing the people, assuming the name of the people and operating from within the process of representation that was designed for the people. But here, in this case, the people, the real ones, have no representation or say so in the matter whatsoever. Only the interests who have aquired the services of Pompeo for a couple of hundred thousand dollars to buy a little government.

This is yet another example of a fascist model being pawned from within the liberty community as some sort of march for liberty but what is essentially happening here are that the people themselves are being disfranchised.

Now, It's early and I don't even have coffee yet so maybe I'll come back once I'm a bit more awake and explain what we have happening within the liberty community as some continue to prop up these corrupt, treasonous companies and elected representatives as some sort of liberty minded supermen as they use our processes of representation to hijack government and disfranchise the people.

There is no veiled evidence of anything. They're doing it live and in your face. And they are being celebrated for it within the liberty community.
Just a point of order, in a libertarian society there wouldn't be anything to buy. Those who robbed for a living, or who committed fraud would (if ever the day comes that people wake up) find themselves unappreciated.

"The people," (who you speak of) probably shouldn't advocate for others be robbed to pay for their things and perhaps the Kochs wouldn't have a model to follow. Or was it vice versa? In any case, this is what has become of society. A group of people using the government to attempt to take from some to give to others and to pass regulations or laws in their name. Collectivism is the stalking horse of fascism.

And now that you mentioned it, I think you did answer me before. I apologize for inferring otherwise, I genuinely forgot.

[erowe1]

It's intra-libertarian partisanship.

To paraphrase the apostle Paul: One of you says, "I am of Rothbard," and another says, "I am of Koch," and another says, "I am of Ayn Rand," and another says, "I am of Milton Friedman." For many the schisms take precedence over the agreements.

That said, the Kochs themselves have helped make the schisms. They helped fund Trey Grayson against Rand Paul in the GOP primary IIRC. That won't make me abandon the good things the Cato Institute does though.

[Natural Citizen]

Collectivism is the stalking horse of fascism.



Yeah, probably that too. I'm really coming around to just adhering to my own personal principles and just concern myself with number 1. That being myself and my family. So many issues to gripe about and on one hand you get folks defending states rights like we see with the "Bundy Ranch" but then when state and individual rights are disfranchised by way of this thing with Pompeo, Koch network and Monsanto scribbling up legislation to force feed people their products they call it liberty. Fuggin nutz, man. You know?

Oh well. In the immortal words of KISS, "We're in the Psyyyyycho Circus....and I say welcome to the showwww..."

Edit - looks like we're dropping ol' Cliven like a bad habit now. So much for states rights over there. Cliven said negro. Nothing to be had politically now. Heh. Carpetbaggers...:rolleyes:

[P3ter_Griffin]

Mapping the Influence of Koch Cash (http://prezi.com/5xzibopikc3a/ifgs-kochtopus-mapping-the-influence-of-koch-cash/?utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=copy)

http://kochcash.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/kochtopus.jpg

2010 cycle...

The Koch brothers’ congressional empire...



haha, just found this on a google search... bump for reading tomorrow

[Natural Citizen]

Heh. What an old thread to bump, P3ter_Griffin. This might be fun to go over again, though. I'm much more concise in expressing myself these days. :)

Unfortunately, this is back in the days when I was "a liberal woman who was brainwashed by Russian propaganda, lobbying for forced labeling and hated Liberty." :eek:

Ah well. I have to head out the door right this second. Maybe later.

[Natural Citizen]

I think it's a "she," but check this out:



Apparently she has issues with libertarianism too. And let's not forget that she has proudly claimed that all her "news" comes from a communist propaganda station (http://www.cjr.org/feature/what_is_russia_today.php?page=all).

Heh.

Pardon me while I go put on my lipstick. :cool:

[H. E. Panqui]

natural citizen: "There is no veiled evidence of anything. They're doing it live and in your face. And they are being celebrated for it within the liberty community."

:)

...thanks to nc, peter, and several others for the thoughtfulness...best forum ever...

...i might quibble with nc that in some future educated/aware/just 'society' there will be no need for government-forced labeling...that truly 'educated'/aware people wouldn't put excitotoxins, etc. goddamned filth galore, into their bodies and they would surely be smart enough to avoid purchasing 'food' from chemical engineers..(hint for republicrats: learn about your food and get your food from nutritionists, chefs, farmers, etc. people you know and trust....not corporate strangers and chemical engineers...your blood/brain barrier is in danger of further compromise only accelerating your descent into 'republicratism') ;)

...as to 'the koch bros.'....i am convinced that if they were a 'force for good' they would use some of their illion$ to promote 'monetary awareness,' monetary justice, etc....but they don't...

...most/all people you meet, including 'libertarians', are worse than ignorant as to this stinking rotten monetary (dis)order under which we are enslaved...the greatest day-to-day control mechani$m is shrouded in $ecrecy...NEVER in my lifetime has 'it' been 'publicly' discussed...and the miserable puppet$ who dominate 'politics' are shamefully naked...ALL of them..

...'the money power' can and does 'manufacture consent' from a truly poisoned, starving and ignorant population that merely quibbles over which bankster puppet to affirm at the polls every 2/4 years... :(:mad:

...it's been my experience most people avoid hone$t discussion$...?many maybe fearing the eventual loss of their ill-gotten 'job$,' 'retirement$,' florida winter condo$, etc. ad nau$eam?...

... the republicrat pillar$ of our communties are debauched and ignorant...themselves merely puppets to those with more bank...