View Full Version : McCain: Jeb Bush the 'smartest guy I know on education'
RandallFan
04-07-2014, 05:08 PM
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-buzz-florida-politics/mccain-jeb-bush-the-smartest-guy-i-know-on-education/2173346
It seems there no one Jeb Bush has not talked to recently about education. Sen. John McCain tells us that he spoke with the former governor a couple weeks ago on education policy.
kahless
04-07-2014, 05:10 PM
The two Progressives meeting on education policy. No surprise here.
acptulsa
04-07-2014, 05:12 PM
Reminds me of the year 2000, when a guy told me he was voting for Dubya because the gentleman was concerned about education. I asked him if that was wise, considering the state Dubya was governor of at the time was, like, 48th in education.
He said he was voting for Dubya anyway.
Wonder if Jeb can find the Ukraine on a map...
UtahApocalypse
04-07-2014, 05:24 PM
Says the dumbest person i know on EVERY subject.....
Natural Citizen
04-07-2014, 06:07 PM
See? I told yuns this would be Jeb's main platform. And it will be. Paul is going to blow a profound opportunity because he refuses to provide a position on science and technology. One that remains in scope and relevant of his own vision of eductation. But I digress. You can lead a horse to water but it's up to them to drink. Stubborn...
TaftFan
04-07-2014, 06:15 PM
See? I told yuns this would be Jeb's main platform. And it will be. Paul is going to blow a profound opportunity because he refuses to provide a position on science and technology. One that remains in scope of his own vision of eductation. But I digress. You can lead a horse to water but it's up to them to drink. Stubborn...This is not the federal government's role.
angelatc
04-07-2014, 06:19 PM
I left Florida before Jeb was governor. One of the biggest reasons we decided to leave was because the schools were so abysmal. Wiki has this to say:
Florida public schools have consistently ranked in the bottom 25 percent of many national surveys and average test-score rankings before allowances for race are made.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Florida#cite_note-17)When allowance for race is considered, a 2007 US Government list of test scores shows Florida white fourth graders performed 13th in the nation for reading (232), 12th for math (250); while black fourth graders were 11th for math (225), 12th for reading (208).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Florida#cite_note-18) White eighth graders scored 30th for math (289) and 36th for reading (268). Neither score was considered statistically significant from average. Black eighth graders ranked 19th on math (259), 25th on reading (244).
In 2002, voters approved a constitutional amendment to limit class size in public schools starting in the 2010-11 school year from 18 in lower grades to 23 in high school. This was phased in by the legislature from 2003 to 2009, to promote compliance when the amendment took effect.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Florida#cite_note-19) As of March 2011, 28 school districts had failed to comply and owed fines, which were to be redistributed to districts that were in compliance.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Florida#cite_note-20)
Florida educators criticized former Governor Jeb Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeb_Bush) for a program that penalizes underperforming schools (as indicated by standardized tests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standardized_test), most prominently the FCAT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Comprehensive_Assessment_Test)) with fewer funding dollars.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Supporters say the program's tough measures have resulted in vast improvements to the education system. Major testing organizations frequently discount the use of state's average test-score rankings, or any average of scaled scores, as a valid metric (for details on scaled test scores, see psychometrics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometrics)).
Florida, like other states, appears to substantially undercount dropouts in reporting.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Florida#cite_note-21)
Natural Citizen
04-07-2014, 06:22 PM
This is not the federal government's role.
This is known and understood. But it's irrelevant to what I said. Also...the bulk of common core curriculum is a product of the free market. Youth are self teaching on top of that as a result of being the only generation in the history of man to live their entire lives in a technological world. And they are capable of this long before they ever walk through the front door of any school.
Taft. Do you know who is going to ensure that Rand doesn't stand a chance at leadership at the next level? I'll tell you. It's his base.
Henry Rogue
04-08-2014, 08:24 AM
This is known and understood. But it's irrelevant to what I said. Also...the bulk of common core curriculum is a product of the free market. Youth are self teaching on top of that as a result of being the only generation in the history of man to live their entire lives in a technological world. And they are capable of this long before they ever walk through the front door of any school.
Taft. Do you know who is going to ensure that Rand doesn't stand a chance at leadership at the next level? I'll tell you. It's his base.
Regarding the bold words, common core is not Free Market consumption.
Natural Citizen
04-08-2014, 02:59 PM
Regarding the bold words, common core is not Free Market consumption.
What do you mean by consumption, Henry? I don't get it.
Without knowing what you mean, I can only add that what we want to do is provide a platform for youth to produce and compete in the 21'st century in a relevant way. Consumption model is the product of what has already failed. It is the product of Industrial Age reason and it's not compatible with the Information Age in which these youth are a product. The ways of old men would force our youth to accept that their only role is to consume instead of produce while opportunity for a relevant education and a path to produce and compete goes to foreign students via the H1-B. This is a diservice to America's youth. It's anti-American in nature.
There are things that I don't like about common core (namely some propaganda that I've seen) but you're not going to just do away with government involvement in education. It's a pipe dream. The way to address these problems are not to just hand over the future to the foreign counterparts of our own youth as some politicians would have it. And addressing them has to happen at the local level.
Here's where we are right now, Henry. This is where we'll remain if we're to continue letting politicians just hand our children's future over to foreign students. Consumption model demands that our youth remain at the bottom of these charts.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/Chart%203%20final.png
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/chart%201%20new.png
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/chart%202%20new.png
angelatc
04-08-2014, 04:06 PM
What do you mean by consumption, Henry? I don't get it.
Without knowing what you mean, I can only add that what we want to do is provide a platform for youth to produce and compete in the 21'st century in a relevant way. Consumption model is the product of what has already failed. It is the product of Industrial Age reason and it's not compatible with the Information Age in which these youth are a product. The ways of old men would force our youth to accept that their only role is to consume instead of produce while opportunity for a relevant education and a path to produce and compete goes to foreign students via the H1-B. This is a diservice to America's youth. It's anti-American in nature.
There are things that I don't like about common core (namely some propaganda that I've seen) but you're not going to just do away with government involvement in education. It's a pipe dream. The way to address these problems are not to just hand over the future to the foreign counterparts of our own youth as some politicians would have it. And addressing them has to happen at the local level.
Here's where we are right now, Henry. This is where we'll remain if we're to continue letting politicians just hand our children's future over to foreign students. Consumption model demands that our youth remain at the bottom of these charts.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/Chart%203%20final.png
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/chart%201%20new.png
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/chart%202%20new.png
Speaking of propaganda....adjust those numbers for race and let me know what you come up with.
http://educationnext.org/fallingbehind/
pcosmar
04-08-2014, 04:46 PM
This is not the federal government's role.
And yet the reality is,,,,,
"No child left behind"
Or if you prefer the Reagan Years,
"Excellence in Education" ( standardized testing )
DamianTV
04-08-2014, 05:05 PM
Says the dumbest person i know on EVERY subject.....
^^^ Wins thread
Brian4Liberty
04-08-2014, 05:41 PM
The ways of old men would force our youth to accept that their only role is to consume instead of produce while opportunity for a relevant education and a path to produce and compete goes to foreign students via the H1-B. This is a diservice to America's youth. It's anti-American in nature.
There are things that I don't like about common core (namely some propaganda that I've seen) but you're not going to just do away with government involvement in education. It's a pipe dream. The way to address these problems are not to just hand over the future to the foreign counterparts of our own youth as some politicians would have it. And addressing them has to happen at the local level.
Here's where we are right now, Henry. This is where we'll remain if we're to continue letting politicians just hand our children's future over to foreign students.
I agree what's being done with our economy and jobs is anti-American.
But at the same time, I will not accept the lies and excuses from the "blame young Americans" crowd that thrives in our corporatist establishment, with the US Chamber of Commerce being evil central. American students do get degrees in STEM subjects, and then less than half of them can find work. Graduating more Americans is not a solution to a lie. There are educated Americans, there are uneducated Americans. It has always been that way. Education isn't even the problem that it is made out to be.
What we have is a system where imported workers are favored, and Americans are excluded. It is anti-Americanism, initiated by corporatist crooks, and perpetuated by naive, ignorant and sold-out politicians.
dannno
04-08-2014, 05:54 PM
Does anybody recall when George Bush Sr. was being interviewed by Dan Rather and Rather kept bringing up Iran Contra?
Bush kept saying, "I don't want to talk about that, I want to talk about education!!"
I think it's a neocon thing.
DamianTV
04-08-2014, 08:04 PM
I agree what's being done with our economy and jobs is anti-American.
But at the same time, I will not accept the lies and excuses from the "blame young Americans" crowd that thrives in our corporatist establishment, with the US Chamber of Commerce being evil central. American students do get degrees in STEM subjects, and then less than half of them can find work. Graduating more Americans is not a solution to a lie. There are educated Americans, there are uneducated Americans. It has always been that way. Education isn't even the problem that it is made out to be.
What we have is a system where imported workers are favored, and Americans are excluded. It is anti-Americanism, initiated by corporatist crooks, and perpetuated by naive, ignorant and sold-out politicians.
And their solution is to give the imported workers a vote while exclude US citizens from voting.
Henry Rogue
04-08-2014, 09:23 PM
This is known and understood. But it's irrelevant to what I said. Also...the bulk of common core curriculum is a product of the free market. Youth are self teaching on top of that as a result of being the only generation in the history of man to live their entire lives in a technological world. And they are capable of this long before they ever walk through the front door of any school.
Taft. Do you know who is going to ensure that Rand doesn't stand a chance at leadership at the next level? I'll tell you. It's his base.
Regarding the bold words, common core is not Free Market consumption.
What do you mean by consumption, Henry? I don't get it.
Without knowing what you mean, I can only add that what we want to do is provide a platform for youth to produce and compete in the 21'st century in a relevant way. Consumption model is the product of what has already failed. It is the product of Industrial Age reason and it's not compatible with the Information Age in which these youth are a product. The ways of old men would force our youth to accept that their only role is to consume instead of produce while opportunity for a relevant education and a path to produce and compete goes to foreign students via the H1-B. This is a diservice to America's youth. It's anti-American in nature.
There are things that I don't like about common core (namely some propaganda that I've seen) but you're not going to just do away with government involvement in education. It's a pipe dream. The way to address these problems are not to just hand over the future to the foreign counterparts of our own youth as some politicians would have it. And addressing them has to happen at the local level.
Here's where we are right now, Henry. This is where we'll remain if we're to continue letting politicians just hand our children's future over to foreign students. Consumption model demands that our youth remain at the bottom of these charts.
Sorry NC, I didn't have time to go into detail earlier. Firstly I think we can both agree "common core" is a bad product. Now, I don't know this is a bad product from personal use, rather I know this from word of mouth. Although I can't know if this is a bad product for all consumers. But whether or not "common core" is a good or bad product isn't what this post is about.
Also...the bulk of common core curriculum is a product of the free market.
common core is not Free Market consumption.
In every trade made, that is, in every transaction between at least two people or parties, both parties are both a producer and a consumer. That is, If I make a bicycle and sell it to you for one hundred dollars, I produced a bike and consumed one hundred dollars, and you produced one hundred dollars and consumed a bike. But for simplification from now on let's say, the party who buys with money is a consumer and the party that sells a bike or in this discussion sells common core is a producer. For it to be a Free Market transaction the consumption must be voluntary. In this case, it most certainly is not. Parents and their children are forced to consume the school district's product and are forced to pay for the school district's product. And apparently some school districts are being forced to buy the fed's product. The only place I can find anything that resembles voluntary trade is between a committee of state governors (although the governors are trading with stolen money) and whoever produced common core, perhaps the curriculum developer is from the private sector, i don't know. But describing common core as a FREE market product is errant, private sector or state manipulated/distorted market, maybe so.
For a market to be Free, it must be voluntary. Markets are a process. If interactions and transactions aren't voluntary at any point during this process, it isn't A Free Market.
Half of the reason markets succeed is because they are allowed to fail. Market discovery is the result of an experiment proven (tested). Billions of experiments are performed every day. Some experiments are proven false and some experiments are proven true. These experiments are performed by both the producers/sellers and the consumers/buyers or some variation of these.
For any transaction to benefit society as a whole over a long period of time, it is crucial that it has two elements. It must have incentive and risk.
A producer must take risks.
(1) Will people buy my product?
(2) Will I make a profit?
(3) Will people continue to buy my product? In other words, is my product bad and people refuse to buy it again or other people observe this bad product being consumed and refuse to make an initial purchase?
(4) Will I continue to make a profit? In other words, will I be held accountable (liable)? In the end will it cost me more than I made initially?
(5) Will I be allowed to fail or will someone else be forced to assume my risk? In other words, will I be bailed out? Will I be protected from litigation by the state?
(6) Will my product become prohibited via force?
(7) Will I have competition?
The consumer has his own list of incentives and risks, not the least of which is the subjective evaluation of value.
2288
This demonstrates clearly how public goods continuously fails to satisfy. Home schooling is a Voluntary Market. How many Home schools use common core? How many Private schools use common core?
It doesn't matter if it is the Stone Age, the Industrial age, the Information Age, or the Totalitarian Age, as long as there are rational thinking Human beings on this planet. Science still applies. In other words, it doesn't matter if there is a Free Market, a manipulated/distorted market or almost no market at all (statism). Human behavior still applies.
Brian4Liberty
04-08-2014, 09:28 PM
Does anybody recall when George Bush Sr. was being interviewed by Dan Rather and Rather kept bringing up Iran Contra?
Bush kept saying, "I don't want to talk about that, I want to talk about education!!"
I think it's a neocon thing.
It's one of those great red herring issues. Everyone falls for it. "We have to do something, it's for the kids!" It's the issue that never goes away. Can be reused again and again.
kcchiefs6465
04-08-2014, 10:24 PM
What do you mean by consumption, Henry? I don't get it.
Without knowing what you mean, I can only add that what we want to do is provide a platform for youth to produce and compete in the 21'st century in a relevant way. Consumption model is the product of what has already failed. It is the product of Industrial Age reason and it's not compatible with the Information Age in which these youth are a product. The ways of old men would force our youth to accept that their only role is to consume instead of produce while opportunity for a relevant education and a path to produce and compete goes to foreign students via the H1-B. This is a diservice to America's youth. It's anti-American in nature.
There are things that I don't like about common core (namely some propaganda that I've seen) but you're not going to just do away with government involvement in education. It's a pipe dream. The way to address these problems are not to just hand over the future to the foreign counterparts of our own youth as some politicians would have it. And addressing them has to happen at the local level.
Here's where we are right now, Henry. This is where we'll remain if we're to continue letting politicians just hand our children's future over to foreign students. Consumption model demands that our youth remain at the bottom of these charts.
Consumption is the end game behind what people are subjecting themselves to: labor. Not many work because they are fond of work. Many work because of the paycheck, the ultimate ends to be, consumption of their choosing. It is not a word that ought be demonized in certain senses. The stereotype being the fiend, ever unimpressed with what they have, constantly using (as per the stereotype) people for their own petty enjoyments. There are sociopaths, I'm sure. Usurers and fraudsters have been documented at least since the Bible (I am drawing a blank on earlier documentation but can assure so long as man has lived, one has tried to unjustly one-up the other). This is not the blanket to cover consumption. You don't work hard weekly so that you can sleep in a pillowcase of FRNs. You work hard weekly, as per your character, and so that you can ultimately consume things you find worth your time (labor). Scarcity is real. It will never be the case, so far as I can see, that scarcity truly ends.
As for the industrial age versus information age I'd argue the case we are very much still beholden to what has been instilled before birth. The 'information age' has awoken many but I find the same possible statistics of those who were awoken before (with regards to this philosophy). There may be a bigger issue at play, or perhaps I'm pessimistic. It seems many don't want freedom.. and those that do would want it regardless. I'm sure a book or video can be to the pushing, but I am unconvinced that perhaps there aren't traits endowed of a wish for enlightenment or justice. I speak to people regularly. I'd say 9 out of 10 don't give a fuck.
Your speaking of "Anti-american" is anti-American in nature. This was, after all, for all of 10 years, a place that immigrants could prosper (absent harassment, documentation, and cries from protectionists). I make jokes but in all reality, free trade and an end to this protectionist system would do the world over [more] justice. Where is my justice, as a consumer, if I am to pay George $10,000 for the same procedure Krish offers for $2,000? Am I supposed to feel well with the case that while I overpaid, someone [unduly] prospered?
ClydeCoulter
04-08-2014, 10:38 PM
In natural consumption, I consume the apple that I traded for a potato. They are both gone.
Natural Citizen
04-08-2014, 10:45 PM
Speaking of propaganda....adjust those numbers for race and let me know what you come up with.
http://educationnext.org/fallingbehind/
Why would I do that? It's irrelevant. And it's racist to spin the data into context with race just because that's what you want to debate...angela.
Natural Citizen
04-08-2014, 10:59 PM
Sorry NC, I didn't have time to go into detail earlier. Firstly I think we can both agree "common core" is a bad product. Now, I don't know this is a bad product from personal use, rather I know this from word of mouth. Although I can't know if this is a bad product for all consumers. But whether or not "common core" is a good or bad product isn't what this post is about.
In every trade made, that is, in every transaction between at least two people or parties, both parties are both a producer and a consumer. That is, If I make a bicycle and sell it to you for one hundred dollars, I produced a bike and consumed one hundred dollars, and you produced one hundred dollars and consumed a bike. But for simplification from now on let's say, the party who buys with money is a consumer and the party that sells a bike or in this discussion sells common core is a producer. For it to be a Free Market transaction the consumption must be voluntary. In this case, it most certainly is not. Parents and their children are forced to consume the school district's product and are forced to pay for the school district's product. And apparently some school districts are being forced to buy the fed's product. The only place I can find anything that resembles voluntary trade is between a committee of state governors (although the governors are trading with stolen money) and whoever produced common core, perhaps the curriculum developer is from the private sector, i don't know. But describing common core as a FREE market product is errant, private sector or state manipulated/distorted market, maybe so.
For a market to be Free, it must be voluntary. Markets are a process. If interactions and transactions aren't voluntary at any point during this process, it isn't A Free Market.
Half of the reason markets succeed is because they are allowed to fail. Market discovery is the result of an experiment proven (tested). Billions of experiments are performed every day. Some experiments are proven false and some experiments are proven true. These experiments are performed by both the producers/sellers and the consumers/buyers or some variation of these.
For any transaction to benefit society as a whole over a long period of time, it is crucial that it has two elements. It must have incentive and risk.
A producer must take risks.
(1) Will people buy my product?
(2) Will I make a profit?
(3) Will people continue to buy my product? In other words, is my product bad and people refuse to buy it again or other people observe this bad product being consumed and refuse to make an initial purchase?
(4) Will I continue to make a profit? In other words, will I be held accountable (liable)? In the end will it cost me more than I made initially?
(5) Will I be allowed to fail or will someone else be forced to assume my risk? In other words, will I be bailed out? Will I be protected from litigation by the state?
(6) Will my product become prohibited via force?
(7) Will I have competition?
The consumer has his own list of incentives and risks, not the least of which is the subjective evaluation of value.
2288
This demonstrates clearly how public goods continuously fails to satisfy. Home schooling is a Voluntary Market. How many Home schools use common core? How many Private schools use common core?
It doesn't matter if it is the Stone Age, the Industrial age, the Information Age, or the Totalitarian Age, as long as there are rational thinking Human beings on this planet. Science still applies. In other words, it doesn't matter if there is a Free Market, a manipulated/distorted market or almost no market at all (statism). Human behavior still applies.
I think we're on two entirely different pages, Henry. I understand your points on markets and so my initial question on why you used the language of consumption was just one out of curiosity. And now I still am not sure why you are taking that position. I know how markets work but I don't see what you're doing with it here. What exactly is your point? Repsectfully. I really don't see it. Perhaps I'm missing something.
What I want to do is avoid another Apollo fail where we took everything we learned and gave it away to foreign interests in order to sell it back to us. Which is what the H1-B essentially does...again. Because we are in the middle of another very similar transition. And I see the same dumb logic being repeated now by political people who seem to hold the same position as those folks back then. And look what it got us.
Natural Citizen
04-08-2014, 11:04 PM
As for the industrial age versus information age I'd argue the case we are very much still beholden to what has been instilled before birth.
I meant infrastructurally. Not as in waking people up. Common core isn't as much in place for students as it is for teachers. Teachers and parents are the ones who have to conform to students who are already a product of the information age before they even walk through the door of any school. And the problem is that the teachers and parents don't want to take that responsibility. They're still stuck on cursive and whatnot, for lack of a better example. Because they aren't a product of the technology age, they have this illusion that they need to block students from learning in the techological atmosphere that defines their futures. Previous generation is so absorbed in what they understand that they relentlessly attack that which they do not. They have been trained that they exist to consume. Not produce. Production is something that they understand to be the fruits of foreign countries. And so they continue to try to force the next generation to follow in their footsteps. The H1-B is a prime example of this in action. Which is exactly what some politicians are pushing for. They want consumers. Not producers. And they're just handing over the tools to the foreign counterparts of our own youth in order to make it happen.
kcchiefs6465
04-08-2014, 11:23 PM
I meant infrastructurally. Not as in waking people up.
I got somewhat sidetracked in the post which you were responding. Infrastructurally, this system is bastardized far from reason. Protectionist policies hardly help the people under them. The "help" would be short lived and the loss would be evident. Propaganda is what convinces people to 'un-see' (tolerate) the evident.
Common core isn't as much in place for students as it is for teachers. Teachers and parents are the ones who have to conform to students who are already a product of the information age before they even walk through the door of any school. And the problem is that the teachers and parents don't want to take that responsibility. They're still stuck on cursive and whatnot, for lack of a better example. Because they aren't a product of the technology age, they have this illusion that they need to block students from learning in the techological atmosphere that defines their futures. Previous generation is so absorbed in what they understand that they relentlessly attack that which they do not.
17,000 hours.
moostraks
04-09-2014, 06:36 AM
I meant infrastructurally. Not as in waking people up. Common core isn't as much in place for students as it is for teachers. Teachers and parents are the ones who have to conform to students who are already a product of the information age before they even walk through the door of any school. And the problem is that the teachers and parents don't want to take that responsibility. They're still stuck on cursive and whatnot, for lack of a better example. Because they aren't a product of the technology age, they have this illusion that they need to block students from learning in the techological atmosphere that defines their futures. Previous generation is so absorbed in what they understand that they relentlessly attack that which they do not. They have been trained that they exist to consume. Not produce. Production is something that they understand to be the fruits of foreign countries. And so they continue to try to force the next generation to follow in their footsteps. The H1-B is a prime example of this in action. Which is exactly what some politicians are pushing for. They want consumers. Not producers. And they're just handing over the tools to the foreign counterparts of our own youth in order to make it happen.
Common core is not an advance in education. It is created by corporations for the purpose of turning the children into products and making them more effective consumers which are also being trained to think in a manner so that they will vote a certain way. It is standardizing the process across a very large country which is incredibly dangerous for those of us who realize what the result will be when this propaganda takes effect on the generation of voters be educated under this system. Education must be in the hands of the local level for those who value their liberty so that it is representative of the needs of the individuals and not allowed to become another product of the richest lobbyists.
Taking your example of cursive, it seems that your understanding of education is short sighted. First off, adults need to be able to do more than just type on a keyboard. Second, cursive is more than just a means of fancy handwriting, it is valuable to the creative, artistic process and important for those who want to see our children become a continuation of the entrepreneurial, innovative spirit that created this country. Penmanship is a class which takes 20-30 minutes twice a week for the first 6-8 years. Yet we cannot spare the time now because it is not easily graded through standardized testing and we are strictly concerned with not the type of individuals we are turning out and their well being but how we can prove our value as a nation through standardized measures.
The changes in literature is another so called improvement they are making in common core standards. They are transitioning into non-fiction reading being of primary importance. Again this will make our children career ready for a certain subset of businesses who have lobbied for these changes to enlarge the pool of their potential employees but at the expense of the creative process. It is as though those creating the curriculum have never had any exposure to youth and lack the ability to understand the means by which one inspires them to evolve into productive and creative adults.
Most importantly, for those who value a future liberty movement, we must limit the ability of the education system to have a captive audience which they may plant seeds in such a standardized measure. Factory methods will get you factory results. This method of educating is a threat to self determination.
specsaregood
04-09-2014, 06:45 AM
Taking your example of cursive, it seems that your understanding of education is short sighted. First off, adults need to be able to do more than just type on a keyboard. Second, cursive is more than just a means of fancy handwriting, it is valuable to the creative, artistic process and important for those who want to see our children become a continuation of the entrepreneurial, innovative spirit that created this country.
Indeed. I thought it was stupid until I looked into it and discovered cursive exercises a completely different part of the brain than printing and keyboarding. It is just as important.
Henry Rogue
04-09-2014, 11:50 AM
I think we're on two entirely different pages, Henry. I understand your points on markets and so my initial question on why you used the language of consumption was just one out of curiosity. And now I still am not sure why you are taking that position. I know how markets work but I don't see what you're doing with it here. What exactly is your point? Repsectfully. I really don't see it. Perhaps I'm missing something.
The reason for my response, was your usage of the phrase "free market". I understand that many people use this phrase in a general way to describe anything that is private sector. But to me, the phrase "Free Market" means something very specific, which I attempted to explain in my previous post. This is a pet peeve of mine. A Free market is free of government and state influence. Common core is clearly not free of government influence, therefor is not a free market product. I wasn't commenting on your general assertion, just the specific claim the common core is a product of the free market. That is all. So yes, NC, we were on different pages, sorry for the confusion.
What I want to do is avoid another Apollo fail where we took everything we learned and gave it away to foreign interests in order to sell it back to us. Which is what the H1-B essentially does...again. Because we are in the middle of another very similar transition. And I see the same dumb logic being repeated now by political people who seem to hold the same position as those folks back then. And look what it got us.
I had not planned to discuss education, but since I derailed this thread, i will try to get it back on track. I don't look at the education problem as a battle between nations, rather I look at it as a battle between parents' free choices and a government monopoly attempting to indoctrinate generations of subservient subjects. Whether control can ever be wrestled a way from the state's grip, doesn't distract from the right course of action.
You provided me with charts illustrating the difference between states. These are comparisons of one state to another. I would find fascinating, a chart depicting the differences of literacy and math from past eras to the current. I remember, learning of the literacy levels of american soldiers in each of the wars fought. each successive war the soldiers were less literate as a whole. My contention is that, as government has asserted more control over the education of children, each generation has become less educated as a whole, and thereby making each subsequent generation easier for the state to control. The only way to reverse this process is to take the state out of the eduction business. If we are able to do this, the desire to be competitive with other nations will remedy itself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HZp7eVJNJuw
enhanced_deficit
04-09-2014, 12:46 PM
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWf7w--TwyU)McCain: Joe Lieberman the 'smartest guy I know on Iraq' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWf7w--TwyU)
Natural Citizen
04-09-2014, 04:53 PM
The reason for my response, was your usage of the phrase "free market". I understand that many people use this phrase in a general way to describe anything that is private sector. But to me, the phrase "Free Market" means something very specific, which I attempted to explain in my previous post. This is a pet peeve of mine. A Free market is free of government and state influence. Common core is clearly not free of government influence, therefor is not a free market product. I wasn't commenting on your general assertion, just the specific claim the common core is a product of the free market. That is all. So yes, NC, we were on different pages, sorry for the confusion.
I had not planned to discuss education, but since I derailed this thread, i will try to get it back on track. I don't look at the education problem as a battle between nations, rather I look at it as a battle between parents' free choices and a government monopoly attempting to indoctrinate generations of subservient subjects. Whether control can ever be wrestled a way from the state's grip, doesn't distract from the right course of action.
You provided me with charts illustrating the difference between states. These are comparisons of one state to another. I would find fascinating, a chart depicting the differences of literacy and math from past eras to the current. I remember, learning of the literacy levels of american soldiers in each of the wars fought. each successive war the soldiers were less literate as a whole. My contention is that, as government has asserted more control over the education of children, each generation has become less educated as a whole, and thereby making each subsequent generation easier for the state to control. The only way to reverse this process is to take the state out of the eduction business. If we are able to do this, the desire to be competitive with other nations will remedy itself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HZp7eVJNJuw
Henry, the only thing I truly support with it is the technological advancements and application/processes that youth are exposed in the classroom because they come pre-programmed before they ever walk through the door of the school. Historically, students had to adapt to the curriculum but now we have it backwards where the schools/curriculum have to conform to the student's who is already well ahead. So, it's the teachers who don't want to evolve. But I agree that when we let government insert itself into that then it's counterproductive. The thing is that it becomes hard to weed out the problem when the problem becomes oppositions biggest supporter. It's a big old clusterfudge.
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