The face of Putin's imperialism

[klamath]

Little balance to the distinctly pro Putin RPFs.
Aksyonov political career in Crimea started in 2008. In that year he became a member of ("Russian Community of Crimea") and a member of public organisation ("Civic Active of Crimea").

In 2008-2009, Aksyonov borrowed almost $5 million from Mykola Kirilchuk, a former Crimean minister of industry, to develop the Russian Unity party, Kirilchuk states. Kirilchuk has since fled Crimea and has been trying to get his money back though the court system since.[9] Since 2009 he has been a member of the board in co-president of Coordinating Council ("For Russian Unity in Crimea!"), leader of All-Crimean public political movement Russian Unity ("Русское единство").

Since 2010 he was a deputy of the Supreme Council of Crimea, elected as a member of Russian Unity, which had 4% of votes (warranting 3 seats of total 100 in Crimean parliament) during elections into Supreme Council of Crimea.[10



Following the Ukrainian revolution, on February 27 an emergency session was held in the Crimean legislature while it was occupied by armed pro-Russian forces.[4] The masked gunmen identified themselves as members of Crimea’s "self-defense forces", all of which are, according to Aksyonov, directly under his control.[4] After sealing the doors and confiscating all mobile phones, the MPs who had been invited by Aksyonov to enter the building, passed the motion in the presence of the gunmen armed with Kalashnikov's and rocket launchers.[11][4][12][9] The result was that 55 of 64 votes elected Aksyonov Prime Minister.[13] Various media accounts have disputed whether he was able to gather a quorum of 50 of his peers before the session convened that day, and some Crimean legislators who were registered as present have said they did not come near the building.[4] Others denied being in the city, and that duplicate voting cards stolen from parliament's safe were used in their name.[14] Opposition deputies have avoided speaking out publicly out of fear of reprisal, and due to threats received.[14] Crimean Prime Minister Anatolii Mohyliov was barred from attending the session.

[heavenlyboy34]

RPFs is "pro-Putin"? Since when? The only redeeming thing about him is that he's willing to stand up to US imperialism.

[enhanced_deficit]

Charity begins at home... let's start with face of SWC dronebag ... then proceed to evaluate foreign nations leaders.

[klamath]

Charity begins at home... let's start with face of SWC dronebag ... then proceed to evaluate foreign nations leaders.hmmm until I see this same comment in the threads raving about the Nazi leader in western Ukraine. then I suspect you might have some partisan tendencies toward western asia...

[idiom]

hmmm until I see this same comment in the threads raving about the Nazi leader in western Ukraine. then I suspect you might have some partisan tendencies toward western asia...

I definitely think the Sun shines upon whatever the US touches, so Putin is definitely the bad guy.

Why would the US ever side with the bad guys in a situation?

[klamath]

I definitely think the Sun shines upon whatever the US touches, so Putin is definitely the bad guy.

Why would the US ever side with the bad guys in a situation? Ah but you really can't find me or anyone else supporting western Ukraine but some of us have definitely seen the "Sun shines on everything Putin touches around here". However the exact post of mine you are quoting was in response to a poster that that was saying deal with our own leaders so I challenge him to show me his posts saying the same thing in the anti Ukrainian leadership threads that actually prompted me to post this thread.

[puppetmaster]

Hey maybe Russia has as much claim to Crimea as Israel has to Palestine?

Maybe

[klamath]

Hey maybe Russia has as much claim to Crimea as Israel has to Palestine?

Maybe
The funny part is that the arguments supporting Putin annexing of crimea could be used as a defence for Israel's exact actions. It was historically Russian...... it was historically isreal......

[juleswin]

The result was that 55 of 64 votes elected Aksyonov Prime Minister.

So even with people with Bazooka,s and grenade launchers, 9 people still voted against the guy? Then again, I saw the voters and I saw the turn out and you watch the TV and you will see genuinely happy people saying how happy they are of the outcome. This is something only RT is reporting but something all the observers are confirming. Sorry but after there was a breakdown of law and order in Kiev, the people of Crimea did what they had to do to halt the mayhem from coming to their cities and I hate to say it, but without the protection from the self defense groups and the Russian soldiers, there is no way Crimea would have been allowed to have a referendum.

Also with the news that Kiev was planning to cut pensions by up to 50% and welfare services in order to raise defense spending, I can see why they voted to go with Russia who promised to raise pensions of the Crimeans up to the Russian standards which is about 100% more than what they receive from Kiev. So one can say that they voted with their pocket books and desire for law and order.

[juleswin]

The funny part is that the arguments supporting Putin annexing of Crimea could be used as a defence for Israel's exact actions. It was historically Russian...... it was historically Israel......

Come one, they pushed people off their land in order to bring in new people who are not even middle eastern. Also it was the will of the people, they Crimeans wanted to join Russia which no sane person can say about the Palestinians joining Israel.

[Spikender]

The funny part is that the arguments supporting Putin annexing of crimea could be used as a defence for Israel's exact actions. It was historically Russian...... it was historically isreal......

Partially true, but from what I've seen, Crimean public opinion isn't as strong against Russian annexing Crimea as Palestinian public opinion is against Israel laying claim to Palestine.

Then again, I already knew there had to be severe manipulation in all this, whether the public wanted it or not, and the story in the opening post further proves that.

Either way, I really don't care and frankly think all this talk by our leaders is getting tiring. This is not something worth starting a war with Russia over.

[green73]

RPFs is "pro-Putin"? Since when? The only redeeming thing about him is that he's willing to stand up to US imperialism.

Don't you know, RPF is pro-Hussein, Ahmadinejad, Gaddafi, Assad? So, naturally, we're pro-Putin as well!

[Spikender]

Don't you know, RPF is pro-Hussein, Ahmadinejad, Gaddafi, Assad? So, naturally, we're pro-Putin as well!

In fact, let's be honest here: if there was a popularity poll on the subject of Hitler, RPF would no doubt be pro-Hitler as well.

[AngryCanadian]

The funny part is that the arguments supporting Putin annexing of crimea could be used as a defence for Israel's exact actions. It was historically Russian...... it was historically isreal......

The only difference in that, is you have fascists in Kiev and some of the users on here are supporting by having learned nothing after Libya.

[klamath]

Partially true, but from what I've seen, Crimean public opinion isn't as strong against Russian annexing Crimea as Palestinian public opinion is against Israel laying claim to Palestine.

Then again, I already knew there had to be severe manipulation in all this, whether the public wanted it or not, and the story in the opening post further proves that.

Either way, I really don't care and frankly think all this talk by our leaders is getting tiring. This is not something worth starting a war with Russia over.Of course after a while of driving off Palestinians or shipping them to the gulag and moving Israelis in the public opinion may soon be overwhelming in voting for Israeli annexing. In fact that I believe is the plan.

[klamath]

So even with people with Bazooka,s and grenade launchers, 9 people still voted against the guy? Then again, I saw the voters and I saw the turn out and you watch the TV and you will see genuinely happy people saying how happy they are of the outcome. This is something only RT is reporting but something all the observers are confirming. Sorry but after there was a breakdown of law and order in Kiev, the people of Crimea did what they had to do to halt the mayhem from coming to their cities and I hate to say it, but without the protection from the self defense groups and the Russian soldiers, there is no way Crimea would have been allowed to have a referendum.

Also with the news that Kiev was planning to cut pensions by up to 50% and welfare services in order to raise defense spending, I can see why they voted to go with Russia who promised to raise pensions of the Crimeans up to the Russian standards which is about 100% more than what they receive from Kiev. So one can say that they voted with their pocket books and desire for law and order.Ah but you missed the part where members of parliament said they weren't even there yet were listed as having voted.....
Oh and are you talking about those Ukrainian soldiers that are leaving without firing a shot brutalizing the crimea population?

[Spikender]

Of course after a while of driving off Palestinians or shipping them to the gulag and moving Israelis in the public opinion may soon be overwhelming in voting for Israeli annexing. In fact that I believe is the plan.

But of course, destroying the locals and placing in sympathetics is always a sure-fire solution. Russia didn't have to do it, the sympathy was already there, but Israel will have to resort to different measures if they want more land of any kind.

I dunno, if I was them and I wanted to expand, I would just dig an underground city and start turning Israelis into mole people, but maybe that's just me.

[klamath]

Come one, they pushed people off their land in order to bring in new people who are not even middle eastern. Also it was the will of the people, they Crimeans wanted to join Russia which no sane person can say about the Palestinians joining Israel.You really don't know your history of Ukraine, an area with some of the largest forced mass relocation and ethnic exile in the world.

[klamath]

But of course, destroying the locals and placing in sympathetics is always a sure-fire solution. Russia didn't have to do it, the sympathy was already there, but Israel will have to resort to different measures if they want more land of any kind.

I dunno, if I was them and I wanted to expand, I would just dig an underground city and start turning Israelis into mole people, but maybe that's just me.They didn't have to do it as they had already done it.

[AngryCanadian]

Little balance to the distinctly pro Putin RPFs. .

Since 2010 he was a deputy of the Supreme Council of Crimea, elected as a member of Russian Unity, which had 4% of votes (warranting 3 seats of total 100 in Crimean parliament) during elections into Supreme Council of Crimea.[10


Really klamath? i am an insane person for not supporting your beloved poor fascists whom have taken power in Kiev in an a Coup?

[AngryCanadian]

You really don't know your history of Ukraine, an area with some of the largest forced mass relocation and ethnic exile in the world.

Seems that there Americans on here whom dont know the true history of Ukraine, while like you claim to know it and yet support the fascists in Kiev without knowing the history of Ukraine.

I find it that very ironic.

[klamath]

Really klamath? i am an insane person for not supporting your beloved poor fascists whom have taken power in Kiev in an a Coup?Blah blah blah. You aren't even worth responding to. You can't even begin to find a post where I support the fascist elements in the Ukraine.

[Spikender]

They didn't have to do it as they had already done it.

Right. I'm not sure why you told me that, nothing in my statement implied anything about Russia's past transgressions against Ukraine. I simply said that Russia didn't have to do anything, which is true if we're purely speaking of the current incident. They didn't have to move anyone in or out because it had already been done.

Well, except for all the Russian soldiers moving in and out, but who's counting?

[AngryCanadian]

Blah blah blah. You aren't even worth responding to. You can't even begin to find a post where I support the fascist elements in the Ukraine.


You can't even begin to find a post where I support the fascist elements in the Ukraine

Are you now deflecting your own thread then? from your own thread. You not only attacked several members on here for supporting Putin's stance on Ukraine
but you basically lashed out on by referring them as pro Putin RPFs.


The face of Putin's imperialism

Little balance to the distinctly pro Putin RPFs.



Blah blah blah. You aren't even worth responding to.
Really why? because my links, articles will prove you that your thread is a bit misleading. I have seen a similar debate coming from the backers of the opposition in Ukraine.


I am laughing at how your calling what Putin is doing in Ukraine as Putin's imperialism i guess America's imperialism is acceptable then isn't it?

[ZENemy]

Seems that there Americans on here whom dont know the true history of Ukraine, while like you claim to know it and yet support the fascists in Kiev without knowing the history of Ukraine.

I find it that very ironic.

Too true, and that includes most of congress and all the other "leaders" on TV espousing their pathetic opinions about something they have no first hand knowledge of which is exactly the we should STAY THE HELL OUT OF IT.

[PaulConventionWV]

Don't you know, RPF is pro-Hussein, Ahmadinejad, Gaddafi, Assad? So, naturally, we're pro-Putin as well!

I hypothesize that many people here, including myself, have huge anti-America boners.

[Cabal]

Don't you know, RPF is pro-Hussein, Ahmadinejad, Gaddafi, Assad? So, naturally, we're pro-Putin as well!

You forgot we're anti-Amurikan as well.

[Anti Federalist]

Don't you know, RPF is pro-Hussein, Ahmadinejad, Gaddafi, Assad? So, naturally, we're pro-Putin as well!

You forgot Pro-Kim Jong as well.

[ZENemy]

You forgot Pro-Kim Jong as well.


Whats not to love? lol :D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEaKX9YYHiQ

[klamath]

Funny part is not one person is condoning or defending images of Ukrainian fascism posted, yet I was able to fill up this one little thread with excuses for Putin's imperialism.. .:D Putin is the leader of a country with twice the area of any other country yet he didn't give the Crimean people the option of a complete independent state, but wanted it sucked into a his other 6 million square miles:rolleyes:

[Madison320]

I'm as depressed as anybody about the direction the US is heading. But we're still a lot more free than Russia.

[kcchiefs6465]

Funny part is not one person is condoning or defending images of Ukrainian fascism posted, yet I was able to fill up this one little thread with excuses for Putin's imperialism.. .:D Putin is the leader of a country with twice the area of any other country yet he didn't give the Crimean people the option of a complete independent state, but wanted it sucked into a his other 6 million square miles:rolleyes:
That sounds remarkably familiar.

[Zippyjuan]

Come one, they pushed people off their land in order to bring in new people who are not even middle eastern. Also it was the will of the people, they Crimeans wanted to join Russia which no sane person can say about the Palestinians joining Israel.

The Tartars were in Crimea centuries before the Russians drove them out. Now according to Russian news, they want the rest of them to leave as well.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/crimean-tatars-asked-to-vacate-land-regional-official-says/496451.html


Crimean Tatars Asked to Vacate Land, Regional Official Says
RIA Novosti
Mar. 20 2014 00:00
Last edited 09:13


Ukraine's breakaway region of Crimea will ask Tatars to vacate part of the land where they now live in exchange for new territory elsewhere in the region, a top Crimean government official has said.

Crimean Deputy Prime Minister Rustam Temirgaliyev said Tuesday that the new government in Crimea, where residents voted Sunday to become part of Russia, wants to regularize the land unofficially taken over by Crimean Tatar squatters following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

"We have asked the Crimean Tatars to vacate part of their land, which is required for social needs," Temirgaliyev said. "But we are ready to allocate and legalize many other plots of land to ensure a normal life for the Crimean Tatars," he said.


Sound a bit like Palestine? "You must leave your homes. For the good of our society. But we will give you a new place to live!"

[klamath]

The Tartars were in Crimea centuries before the Russians drove them out. Now according to Russian news, they want the rest of them to leave as well.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/crimean-tatars-asked-to-vacate-land-regional-official-says/496451.html There will only be dead silence to this post or some severe twisting to justify it. They might have a hard time calling it western media bias being that it is from Moscow times.

[silverhandorder]

Squatters are universally hated. You are just as bad as the people you claim like Putin just because he is an opponent to our own tyrants.

[klamath]

Squatters are universally hated. You are just as bad as the people you claim like Putin just because he is an opponent to our own tyrants. Nice defense of it.:rolleyes: "Squatters are universally hated" Despite the fact they are tartars returning from a mass expulsion and occupying unused land. God the Russian apologists are getting bad.

[silverhandorder]

I did not say they are in the wrong. However it is not me who lives in Crimea and I don't lead Russia or America. From the point of view of most people squatters are hated. So if you say this to Putin or someone in Crimea they will just think of you as being disingenuous.

[klamath]

I did not say they are in the wrong. However it is not me who lives in Crimea and I don't lead Russia or America. From the point of view of most people squatters are hated. So if you say this to Putin or someone in Crimea they will just think of you as being disingenuous.Oh wait a minute...Did you miss all the posts on how peaceful and wonderful the Russian occupation was and that there was no evidence ANYTHING being wrong in Crimea and that all the wrong was in Kiev.....

[silverhandorder]

Oh wait a minute...Did you miss all the posts on how peaceful and wonderful the Russian occupation was and that there was no evidence ANYTHING being wrong in Crimea and that all the wrong was in Kiev.....

No I have not. Maybe I missed it please link those posts.

[klamath]

No I have not. Maybe I missed it please link those posts.Hell there was even a thread of people gushing of a Russian police woman of all things.

[silverhandorder]

I will admit this. There is a lot of sympathy towards under dog Russians fending off incursions into their political sphere of control. And they are not pretty. Military intervention.

edit: But I still do not see people here making excuses for them. Sympathy yes.

I will also admit that it is suicide for someone like Rand to show those sympathies and that must upset a lot of his supporters that a forum associated with him has a lot of these sympathies. However I will only urge you to give up on political process :D.

[Zippyjuan]

I believe the reason some support Putin is not because he is so good and caring and a big Libertarian but because in those cases, his side is against what the US says they would like to see happen. "An enemy of my enemy is my friend". Putin is NOT Libertarian. He is not pro- free markets and personal freedoms. His purpose in countries like Syria and Lybia is not to liberate them.

[klamath]

I will admit this. There is a lot of sympathy towards under dog Russians fending off incursions into their political sphere of control. And they are not pretty. Military intervention.

I will also admit that it is suicide for someone like Rand to show those sympathies and that must upset a lot of his supporters that a forum associated with him has a lot of these sympathies. However I will only urge you to give up on political process :D.
what I though. How is Syria in Russia's sphere of influence? By they way I find the phrase to be the catchword for justifying all other foreign intervention.

[Zippyjuan]

Syria is Russia's main access to the Mediteranian Sea for their Navy. Crimea is their Black Sea access.

[klamath]

I believe the reason some support Putin is not because he is so good and caring and a big Libertarian but because in those cases, his side is against what the US says they would like to see happen. "An enemy of my enemy is my friend". Putin is NOT Libertarian. He is not pro- free markets and personal freedoms.I think you nailed it. However that reaction horrible weakens the non interventionist ideology. It makes them a joke.

[klamath]

Syria is Russia's main access to the Mediteranian Sea for their Navy. Crimea is their Black Sea access. That is also true. Putin will do what it takes to ensure his navy has access to the world in a warm water port. but it is not in his sphere of influence as native traditional Russian land.

[silverhandorder]

I think you nailed it. However that reaction horrible weakens the non interventionist ideology. It makes them a joke.
I think to be for non intervention and play politics is simply not a fully matured philosophy. Because you simply can not denounce both sides and win in politics. For that matter you can't win at all in politics but denouncing your own side when it is gearing up for war is a sure way of getting marginalized.

You know the main theme of every movie that you can not shed your humanity in the process of fighting for justice. Well falling in line is exactly that.

[pcosmar]

I think you nailed it. However that reaction horrible weakens the non interventionist ideology. It makes them a joke.

No it does not

My non interventionist ideology relates to the United States..only.

This country needs to stay out of shit in the world.
The very fact that we haven't is the whole reason that Russia has annexed Crimea. To protect their interests.

My non Intervention ideology say I have no right to tell another country what they should do. And also top not support and encourage their enemies.

But my Non Intervention ideology is a fantasy because the USGOV is Neck Deep in starting shit everywhere.

[jkob]

Before Crimea belonged to Russia, the entire economy of the Crimean Khanate was based on raiding neighboring regions in which they sold millions and millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc into slavery in the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. I believe during WWII, they were collaborators with the Nazis as well. This doesn't mean what Stalin did was right by any means but it puts a different perspective on their persecution.

[klamath]

No it does not

My non interventionist ideology relates to the United States..only.

This country needs to stay out of shit in the world.
The very fact that we haven't is the whole reason that Russia has annexed Crimea. To protect their interests.

My non Intervention ideology say I have no right to tell another country what they should do. And also top not support and encourage their enemies.

But my Non Intervention ideology is a fantasy because the USGOV is Neck Deep in starting shit everywhere.
got one part of the sentence right.

[klamath]

Before Crimea belonged to Russia, the entire economy of the Crimean Khanate was based on raiding neighboring regions in which they sold millions and millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, etc into slavery in the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. I believe during WWII, they were collaborators with the Nazis as well. This doesn't mean what Stalin did was right by any means but it puts a different perspective on their persecution.Ok now people are wanting to go down the historical excuse route. Before it was WE must isolate JUST what is happening in the Crimea now and see that it is true and just...... Point out what is going on now as not so true and just and all of a sudden let us selectively go back through a thousand years of history and pick and chose bits of history to justify it. People did not want any mention of Putin's history in Chechnya brought into the debate because we wanted to isolate just the current action in Crimea. Well this is the current action in Crimea.

[idiom]

Any time the US get the lid of the cookie jar smacked down on its thieving hands is a good thing. Doesn't matter if its Putin, or an Ayatollah.

I don't think Americans have *any* comprehension of how negatively they are perceived by the rest of the world.

[tod evans]

I don't think Americans have *any* comprehension of how negatively they are perceived by the rest of the world.

I can only pray that "The World" understands it is the politicians and not the people who behave wrongly....:o

[klamath]

Well sorry to break it too you folks but unless you renounce your US citizenship and leave the country you will bear the cross for all of Americas sins. You will be just one more dirty rotten American.

[tod evans]

Well sorry to break it too you folks but unless you renounce your US citizenship and leave the country you will bear the cross for all of Americas sins. You will be just one more dirty rotten American.

You...........Will not saddle me with your inequities! :mad:

[Danke]

Any time the US get the lid of the cookie jar smacked down on its thieving hands is a good thing. Doesn't matter if its Putin, or an Ayatollah.

I don't think Americans have *any* comprehension of how negatively they are perceived by the rest of the world.

Well, Kiwis are collectivist, so I can see how they might have those perceptions.

[juleswin]

The Tartars were in Crimea centuries before the Russians drove them out. Now according to Russian news, they want the rest of them to leave as well.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/crimean-tatars-asked-to-vacate-land-regional-official-says/496451.html



Sound a bit like Palestine? "You must leave your homes. For the good of our society. But we will give you a new place to live!"

Come on, its not like there is an area is populated by just tartars, it most likely was an eminent domain type deal where people have to move. See another thing is that its not like the Tartars had a state of their own, they were living under the Ukrainian government where their votes counted just as much as they did the night of the referendum.

So enough with you and Klamath comparing them to Palestinians. Lastly, the moscowtimes is a western propaganda news outlet, whatever they say especially about Russia should be taken with a grain of salt

[AngryCanadian]

I'm as depressed as anybody about the direction the US is heading. But we're still a lot more free than Russia.


But we're still a lot more free than Russia

With taxes and earnings up to 1,000 for a living, yup thats freedom.

[AngryCanadian]

I believe the reason some support Putin is not because he is so good and caring and a big Libertarian but because in those cases, his side is against what the US says they would like to see happen. "An enemy of my enemy is my friend". Putin is NOT Libertarian. He is not pro- free markets and personal freedoms. His purpose in countries like Syria and Lybia is not to liberate them.




His purpose in countries like Syria and Lybia is not to liberate them.
I am quite sure your beloved Rebels purpose like Syria and Libya were in to liberate them. Say again? how is Libya doing again? oh thats right chaotic is the word here.

[PierzStyx]

Ah but you missed the part where members of parliament said they weren't even there yet were listed as having voted.....
Oh and are you talking about those Ukrainian soldiers that are leaving without firing a shot brutalizing the crimea population?

Sources or OP is bogus. That is the rule of the internet. You can just make everything up you want. Not saying you are, but reveal your sources so their validity can be evaluated.

[idiom]

Sources or OP is bogus. That is the rule of the internet. You can just make everything up you want. Not saying you are, but reveal your sources so their validity can be evaluated.

This is the other part of it. What we hear of Putin's wrong doings are mostly rumours and expectations given his history. hard proof is hard to come by.

The Ukrainian members of parliament are personally filming themselves beating up the managers of TV Stations and posting it online. That's real modern Brown shirt stuff.

Putin has thugs, but he puts up serious propaganda to appear not to be a thug. He is using nationalism and a bit of false flagging. Same as the US. The Ukrainians are using wholesale fascism.

[klamath]

You...........Will not saddle me with your inequities! :mad:I won't, but those that hate America will when they cut your throat for even being a dirty rotten American.

[klamath]

Sources or OP is bogus. That is the rule of the internet. You can just make everything up you want. Not saying you are, but reveal your sources so their validity can be evaluated.I have posted it. The crickets were pretty loud. Do a search for the current president of Crimea and follow the links on how he got elected to the presidency of Crimea.

[enhanced_deficit]

hmmm until I see this same comment in the threads raving about the Nazi leader in western Ukraine. then I suspect you might have some partisan tendencies toward western asia...

I'm not sure what you meant here and I certaily don't pretend to know in depth Ukraine internal dynamics. Only point I was trying to make above was that any Americans who make time to criticize Putin's imperialism/ interventions should at a minimum have realization that dronebag disgrace/his puppet masters' interventions funded by US tax payers are far more numerous and have killed many times more innocent people than those by Putin. If you disagree, we can examine this further.

[klamath]

I'm not sure what you meant here and I certaily don't pretend to know in depth Ukraine internal dynamics. Only point I was trying to make above was that any Americans who make time to criticize Putin's imperialism/ interventions should at a minimum have realization that dronebag disgrace/his puppet masters' interventions funded by US tax payers are far more numerous and have killed many times more innocent people than those by Putin. If you disagree, we can examine this further.So what are you trying to do, limit it to obama versus Putin as far as killing numbers?

[enhanced_deficit]

So what are you trying to do, limit it to obama versus Putin as far as killing numbers?

Nope, but that is very important piece in the imperialism/intereventions metric.

If you are American, I would hope have taken time to criticize SWC dronebag's/his puppet masters' imperialiasm and interventions too .. since most likely you and I are funding it. Charity begins at home as I stated in my first post. I did not assume that you have not already brought attention to ugnly contours of dronebag's imperialsm face, was just making a general statement of principle.

[tod evans]

I won't, but those that hate America will when they cut your throat for even being a dirty rotten American.

I don't know about you but I'm more fearful of our governments agents than the Ruskies...

[unknown]

RPFs is "pro-Putin"? Since when? The only redeeming thing about him is that he's willing to stand up to US imperialism.

Agreed.


Little balance to the distinctly pro Putin RPFs.

I dont know that RPF is necessarily "pro Putin", I think most of us are reacting to the blatant hypocrisy being spewed by our government.

[klamath]

Nope, but that is very important piece in the imperialism/intereventions metric.

If you are American, I would hope have taken time to criticize SWC dronebag's/his puppet masters' imperialiasm and interventions too .. since most likely you and I are funding it. Charity begins at home as I stated in my first post. I did not assume that you have not already brought attention to ugnly contours of dronebag's imperialsm face, was just making a general statement of principle.You are a newby. You really don't believe I would have following Ron Paul or Rand if I hadn't been criticizing US war policies? A good place to start is decades. What I am finding so putrid is reading the same arguments for Russian foreign intervention as the Neocons used to excuse US intervention on THESE forums. I whole reason I posted this thread is because of the sickening amount of Russian neocon talking points were being posted.

[klamath]

Agreed.



I dont know that RPF is necessarily "pro Putin", I think most of us are reacting to the blatant hypocrisy being spewed by our government. Not necessarily the whole forum but the public face it was showing with the active posters was yes defending and excusing Putin.

[klamath]

I don't know about you but I'm more fearful of our governments agents than the Ruskies...That wasn't what we were talking about. People were talking about how much America was hated abroad. If they ever came here, running out with a white flag and screaming "I hate my government is NOT going to save your head from being sawed off. You are still a fucking American. It is a fact of world collectivism.

[tod evans]

That wasn't what we were talking about. People were talking about how much America was hated abroad. If they ever came here, running out with a white flag and screaming "I hate my government is NOT going to save your head from being sawed off. You are still a fucking American. It is a fact of world collectivism.

You're free to spin all the make-believe you like..

Fact of the matter is our government has killed many more Americans in the last 40 years than Russia has..

[pcosmar]

That wasn't what we were talking about. People were talking about how much America was hated abroad. If they ever came here, running out with a white flag and screaming "I hate my government is NOT going to save your head from being sawed off. You are still a fucking American. It is a fact of world collectivism.

I would offer them a cigarette.
at trade some for vodka,

at least that was what I did last time.
Got a bottle of Stolie with no English writing or tax stamps.

[klamath]

You're free to spin all the make-believe you like..

Fact of the matter is our government has killed many more Americans in the last 40 years than Russia has..What ever.

[tod evans]

What ever.

Well that's articulate...:rolleyes:

[kcchiefs6465]

Not necessarily the whole forum but the public face it was showing with the active posters was yes defending and excusing Putin.
You've said the same about Ron Paul's comments on the matter.

This is, after all, Ron Paul forums. It should come as no surprise to you, that many share his opinion on the matter. Your intentionally hyperbolic misrepresentations and demagoguery aside.

Did you ever watch that podcast by the way? It's pretty informative.

http://www.podcastone.com/pg/jsp/program/episode.jsp?programID=401&pid=396469

There's even an interview of Ray McGovern on it. :)

[klamath]

I would offer them a cigarette.
at trade some for vodka,

at least that was what I did last time.
Got a bottle of Stolie with no English writing or tax stamps.Last time I worked with Russian soldier was when my detachment had to medevac one in Bosnia with a ax buried in his head when him and his comrades got drunk and got into a fight.

[Zippyjuan]

What I am finding facinating is that there seems to be some who criticize Obama's interventions (rightly so) and yet cheer Putin's interventions. Some wish that the people of the US would rise up against their government and replace it with a new one and yet seem to support governments in other countries repressing uprisings there.

[Dianne]

I'm more worried about Obama's imperialism; than Putin's ...

[klamath]

You've said the same about Ron Paul's comments on the matter.

This is, after all, Ron Paul forums. It should come as no surprise to you, that many share his opinion on the matter. Your intentionally hyperbolic misrepresentations and demagoguery aside.

Did you ever watch that podcast by the way? It's pretty informative.

http://www.podcastone.com/pg/jsp/program/episode.jsp?programID=401&pid=396469

There's even an interview of Ray McGovern on it. :)You do realize I do know that and This is the first time Ron has ever done that. He would not even state and opinion on a known genocide because he always said it was none of our business.
I flat out disagree with him. I find his statement to be disgustingly hypocritical. I stated before that out of the respect for the 30 year I have supported Ron I kept low key on this unlike the disrespect you show Rand when he does something you people dislike. Thank you very much for bringing it up.

[pcosmar]

Last time I worked with Russian soldier was when my detachment had to medevac one in Bosnia with a ax buried in his head when him and his comrades got drunk and got into a fight.

These were sailors on a Russian freighter.

We didn't fight..nor get drunk,, though we had a few drinks. Seem like nice folks to me.

[pcosmar]

I'm more worried about Obama's imperialism; than Putin's ...

I'm not even that worried about Obama's. nor Putin's.

The Rothschild Empire is playing them both to bring about the next big war.

And it will be in the Mid East,, though it will likely spread through Europe..
They are just getting all the players pissed enough to fight.

[kcchiefs6465]

You do realize I do know that and This is the first time Ron has ever done that. He would not even state and opinion on a known genocide because he always said it was none of our business.
I flat out disagree with him. I find his statement to be disgustingly hypocritical. I stated before that out of the respect for the 30 year I have supported Ron I kept low key on this unlike the disrespect you show Rand when he does something you people dislike. Thank you very much for bringing it up.
So... did you watch the podcast, not watch the podcast?

What I mentioned, for those who may not have been following what you've been saying is that you've said Ron Paul defended and bowed to Putin.

You were asked in response to another one of your vague mentionings, what specifically you were talking about and you never responded. You then bring it up any time the topic is remotely related with vague demagoguery and hyperbolic broad brushings. You admittedly have not the bandwith to see what Ron Paul is saying on the matter, yet still speak as if you've seen it. To boot, you are so damn hypocritical I do not know where to begin. When I mention how similar your objections to Crimea's Parliamentarian decisions are to what many here go through, you simply shrug it away to say "I'm not an anarchist [so your logical reasonable appeals have no power over me]" (paraphrased, but that was the attitude). You simply do not care. So long as it is your government in place doing what you think they should be doing, to hell with the individual who thinks otherwise. You know best, after all. The hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[heavenlyboy34]

These were sailors on a Russian freighter.

We didn't fight..nor get drunk,, though we had a few drinks. Seem like nice folks to me.

They're typically very nice folks. They'll even (typically) bring you a gift when they visit you, per Russian custom.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

What I am finding facinating is that there seems to be some who criticize Obama's interventions (rightly so) and yet cheer Putin's interventions. Some wish that the people of the US would rise up against their government and replace it with a new one and yet seem to support governments in other countries repressing uprisings there.
Putin didn't shoot Ukrainians and Bomb them, then annexed Crimea. Crimeans peacefully voted to join Russia.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Well, well,... imagine that, no mention of the Ukraine military headed into eastern oblasts to crack down on pro Russian demonstrations and rallies. Should Russia move in to protect the civilians like Kosovo? Iraq? Libya? Grenada? Panama? Columbia? Vietnam? Lebanon? Kuwait? Philippines?

[AngryCanadian]

What ever.

Its Unbelievable how some Americans actual even care about the past in the Russian Communists under the rule of Stalin had killed quarter to a million people yet Americans whom arent even Americans they keep forgetting there grandfathers came from Europe and had slaughtered at least a million of Native Americans. Ironic.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Its Unbelievable how some Americans actual even care about the past in the Russian Communists under the rule of Stalin had killed quarter to a million people yet Americans whom arent even Americans they keep forgetting there grandfathers came from Europe and had slaughtered at least a million of Native Americans. Ironic.
not my grandfathers, no blood on my hands

[klamath]

Well, well,... imagine that, no mention of the Ukraine military headed into eastern oblasts to crack down on pro Russian demonstrations and rallies. Should Russia move in to protect the civilians like Kosovo? Iraq? Libya? Grenada? Panama? Columbia? Vietnam? Lebanon? Kuwait? Philippines?Well well imagine that YOU did mention that. This thread was balance to all of your type of pro Putin threads and posts. I don't take Either side. The whole point of the thead is to show there is wrong on all sides and we should stay out and NOT take sides.

[pcosmar]

Well well imagine that YOU did mention that. This thread was balance to all of your type of pro Putin threads and posts. I don't take Either side. The whole point of the thead is to show there is wrong on all sides and we should stay out and NOT take sides.

I agree,, we Should have.

Russia would not have annexed Crimea had we not overthrown the government of Ukraine.
They had no reason to do that previously. They had their bases and Ports,, they had trade and travel.
They had a good working relationship. They had no reason.

Until we gave them a reason.

Yes,, we should have stayed out of it. But we didn't.

[acptulsa]

Its Unbelievable how some Americans actual even care about the past in the Russian Communists under the rule of Stalin had killed quarter to a million people yet Americans whom arent even Americans they keep forgetting there grandfathers came from Europe and had slaughtered at least a million of Native Americans. Ironic.

None of this business in the Ukraine ignited in a vacuum.

You, as I recall, brought up the past when you mentioned that they celebrate people of their own past engaging in nazi collaboration during WWII, without even mentioning the fact that these people were opposing Stalin.

It is possible to clarify that without bringing up native Americans. Indeed, some would consider them irrelevant to a discussion of the Ukraine.

As with most things in this world, this Ukranian situation has two sides. Only a propagandist would not want them both examined. The EU has no business promoting neo-nazis in the Ukraine. Russia should have no business pre-emptively sending troops into a part of the Ukraine, even if the people there did vote to secede. But, of course, it can be argued that once one side intervenes, it's too late to criticize another player for not being scrupulously non-interventionist. This doesn't mean that a non-interventionist isn't being a hypocrite when he says anything other than, 'Both sides are wrong.'

When it comes to McCain and his ilk warmongering about it, we need to just say no. Whether we're in NATO or not. Whether the CIA started it or not. Yes, if you make a mess, you should clean it up. But it's becoming increasingly obvious that the CIA and the American people are not the same entity. And that the American military isn't well suited to cleaning messes up, but rather well suited to making them bigger messes.

The EU, the CIA and the neocons want us to beat up Putin because he's playing a better game of chess than they are. But if they had told us what move they were about to make, we could have told them it was dumb. They didn't. So how is it our problem?

[Pericles]

None of this business in the Ukraine ignited in a vacuum.

You, as I recall, brought up the past when you mentioned that they celebrate people of their own past engaging in nazi collaboration during WWII, without even mentioning the fact that these people were opposing Stalin.

It is possible to clarify that without bringing up native Americans. Indeed, some would consider them irrelevant to a discussion of the Ukraine.

As with most things in this world, this Ukranian situation has two sides. Only a propagandist would not want them both examined. The EU has no business promoting neo-nazis in the Ukraine. Russia should have no business pre-emptively sending troops into a part of the Ukraine, even if the people there did vote to secede. But, of course, it can be argued that once one side intervenes, it's too late to criticize another player for not being scrupulously non-interventionist. This doesn't mean that a non-interventionist isn't being a hypocrite when he says anything other than, 'Both sides are wrong.'

When it comes to McCain and his ilk warmongering about it, we need to just say no. Whether we're in NATO or not. Whether the CIA started it or not. Yes, if you make a mess, you should clean it up. But it's becoming increasingly obvious that the CIA and the American people are not the same entity. And that the American military isn't well suited to cleaning messes up, but rather well suited to making them bigger messes.

The EU, the CIA and the neocons want us to bet up Putin because he's playing a better game of chess than they are. But if they had told us what move they were about to make, we could have told them it was dumb. They didn't. So how is it our problem?
Yep - I don't get the rush to take sides. Russia in annexing territory. And very likely will do so successfully. Others are probably taking note as to how well that works out. While the US can dominate the world of internet snark, the Russians have tanks.

[klamath]

None of this business in the Ukraine ignited in a vacuum.

You, as I recall, brought up the past when you mentioned that they celebrate people of their own past engaging in nazi collaboration during WWII, without even mentioning the fact that these people were opposing Stalin.

It is possible to clarify that without bringing up native Americans. Indeed, some would consider them irrelevant to a discussion of the Ukraine.

As with most things in this world, this Ukranian situation has two sides. Only a propagandist would not want them both examined. The EU has no business promoting neo-nazis in the Ukraine. Russia should have no business pre-emptively sending troops into a part of the Ukraine, even if the people there did vote to secede. But, of course, it can be argued that once one side intervenes, it's too late to criticize another player for not being scrupulously non-interventionist. This doesn't mean that a non-interventionist isn't being a hypocrite when he says anything other than, 'Both sides are wrong.'

When it comes to McCain and his ilk warmongering about it, we need to just say no. Whether we're in NATO or not. Whether the CIA started it or not. Yes, if you make a mess, you should clean it up. But it's becoming increasingly obvious that the CIA and the American people are not the same entity. And that the American military isn't well suited to cleaning messes up, but rather well suited to making them bigger messes.

The EU, the CIA and the neocons want us to beat up Putin because he's playing a better game of chess than they are. But if they had told us what move they were about to make, we could have told them it was dumb. They didn't. So how is it our problem?
angry Canadian is exactly the kind of person I was talking about earlier in this thread. No matter how many years you have been fighting against neocons and US interventions, you still are still a dirty rotten republican American killer just be the simple fact you are American.

[libertariantexas]

RPFs is "pro-Putin"? Since when? The only redeeming thing about him is that he's willing to stand up to US imperialism.

With imperialism of his own?

Tell me why that is "good" and why we should support it?

[KingNothing]

I don't know about you but I'm more fearful of our governments agents than the Ruskies...

I am too, but only due to their nearness to me.

That is certainly a different thing than saying the Russian government is less thuggish than ours. It isn't. It is worse.

[libertariantexas]

What I am finding facinating is that there seems to be some who criticize Obama's interventions (rightly so) and yet cheer Putin's interventions. Some wish that the people of the US would rise up against their government and replace it with a new one and yet seem to support governments in other countries repressing uprisings there.

Yup.

I frankly don't understand how supporting Putin's military aggression is "libertarian."

Libertarians rightly opposed Bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Yet some of these same people support Putin's invasion, occupation, and annexation of Crimea?

They seem blind to their own hypocrisy.

I know many of you are small "l" libertarians, not big "L" libertarians, but the Libertarian Party statement that "I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals." seems appropriate here.

How do you justify Putin's aggressive invasion of a sovereign nation, when you opposed a similar action by George W. Bush?

The same people who rightfully called George W. Bush a warmonger are now gleefully cheering on Vladimir Putin as if he is some sort of hero of liberty and freedom merely for thumbing his nose at the USA.

I will not stand with so-called libertarians who support the likes of Putin. The invasion was WRONG, even if Russia or some citizens of the Crimean portion of the Ukraine had legitimate grievances.

I'll say it again. I do not advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals, even if the initiator of force has a good excuse (they always do, folks- Bush, Hitler, Stalin, Putin, Hussein, and all the rest all had great excuses to justify their aggression).

We can argue about what we should do about it, if anything, but we surely should not be supporting Putin's invasion/annexation. To support Putin's aggression, frankly, is tantamount to saying that you agree with Hitler's annexation of Austria (the Anschluss) which is nearly identical to what Putin did in Crimea.

[kcchiefs6465]

Yup.

I frankly don't understand how supporting Putin's military aggression is "libertarian."

Libertarians rightly opposed Bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Yet some of these same people support Putin's invasion, occupation, and annexation of Crimea?

They seem blind to their own hypocrisy.

I know many of you are small "l" libertarians, not big "L" libertarians, but the Libertarian Party statement that "I do not believe in or advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals." seems appropriate here.

How do you justify Putin's aggressive invasion of a sovereign nation, when you opposed a similar action by George W. Bush?

The same people who rightfully called George W. Bush a warmonger are now gleefully cheering on Vladimir Putin as if he is some sort of hero of liberty and freedom merely for thumbing his nose at the USA.

I will not stand with so-called libertarians who support the likes of Putin. The invasion was WRONG, even if Russia or some citizens of the Crimean portion of the Ukraine had legitimate grievances.

I'll say it again. I do not advocate the initiation of force as a means of achieving political or social goals, even if the initiator of force has a good excuse (they always do, folks- Bush, Hitler, Stalin, Putin, Hussein, and all the rest all had great excuses to justify their aggression).

We can argue about what we should do about it, if anything, but we surely should not be supporting Putin's invasion/annexation. To support Putin's aggression, frankly, is tantamount to saying that you agree with Hitler's annexation of Austria (the Anschluss) which is nearly identical to what Putin did in Crimea.
Who are you talking about, specifically? The best I can tell, one is a socialist and the other does not describe himself as a libertarian.

The majority of people here have espoused positions similar to Ron Paul's. They've been quoting and posting his articles/videos for some time now. Still then, they are brushed into a group that allegedly admires Putin. One person even has gone so far as to suggest that Ron Paul bowed to Putin. It's really rather amazing.

And of course, you all ignore the point that many, whether the majority wants to side with the EU or Russia, don't wish to side with either or perhaps with any single person on that piece of rock. And what of them? Nothing, as I suspected. I was told of my concerns, you know, of the oppression of the minority, that they were not anarchists (as if I am) so logic and reason had no effect on them. They simply were arguing of who should rule the individuals in Crimea. I believe their hope was that Crimeans would oppress Crimeans. Because, you know, that makes it more legitimate, or something.

Then these same people spout off claims of hypocrisy. To say it is getting a little bit ridiculous would be an understatement.

These generalizations are tired. If you are going to address what people are saying, address them about what they are saying. I doubt many speak for anyone but themselves.

[charrob]

I have posted it. The crickets were pretty loud. Do a search for the current president of Crimea and follow the links on how he got elected to the presidency of Crimea.

There's only been one president of Crimea: Yuriy Meshkov who was president of Crimea from 1994 to 1995; in 1995 Kiev abolished the right of Crimeans to have their own elected president. Meshkov was voted in as president in January 1994 with about 73% of the Crimean vote. His platform was to join the Russian Federation. There is a Crimea Executive Branch with a Prime Minister, but the Executive Branch of Crimea has to be approved by Kiev. Unlike the Executive Branch of Crimea, the Crimean Parliament portrays the ideals of the Crimean people in that it does not have to be approved by Kiev. Historically the "approval" of Kiev for their Executive Branch never sat well with the Parliament and its constituents, creating a long standing rift between them and the national government of Ukraine. Here's the history broken down with information from Lew Rockwell’s site starting in the early 1990s ( http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/status-of-crimea-under-existing-constitution-of-ukraine ):


Almost every year or so the citizens of Crimea voted in a referendum to separate from Ukraine. They wanted nothing to do with Ukraine. (I think we both agree on this.)


After every one of these referendums, the Ukraine government forced themselves on the people of Crimea by inserting Ukraine’s politicians into the Crimean Executive Branch of government (also known as the “Council of Ministers”. Note: there was no president, just a prime minister). This restriction did not sit well with the Crimean Parliament and its constituents, creating a long standing rift between them and the national government of Ukraine.


During the many years of struggle by the people of Crimea to completely sever their relationship with Ukraine, in January 1994 they defied Ukraine and voted to have their very own president of Crimea. Who did they vote for? Yuriy Meshkov. By what percent did he win? 72.9%. What was Yuriy Meshkov’s platform?

Yuriy Meshkov’s main political platform was to facilitate much closer relationships with the Russian Federation up to the possible annexation of Crimea by Russia. Meshkov tried to initiate a military-political union with a foreign country and completely disregarded opinions of the Ukrainian government. He also tried to force the rotation of the Russian currency, issue foreign passports to the Ukrainian population, and even transfer Crimea to the same time zone as Moscow. Sound familiar? This is the same platform as that of Aksyonov.


February 16, 1994: Yuriy Meshkov assumed the title of President of Crimea.


In May 1994, under Yuriy Meshkov, the Crimean parliament voted to restore the May 1992 Constitution (ie. greater autonomy from Ukraine).


September 1994. President of Crimea Yuriy Meshkov and parliament decided to write a new Constitution so that Meshkov could go forward with the goals of his political platform.


March 17, 1995. The Verkhovna Rada (Supreme Council of Ukraine) abolished the May 1992 Constitution (and the post of President of Crimea).

----------------------------------
So we have the history above. The people of Crimea voted by a majority of 72.9% for a president that wanted to become part of Russia. They were stuck with an executive branch “Council of Ministers” that they did not elect and did not want. Yes there were a minority of ethnic Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea that did not want Yuriy Meshkov as their president. But the majority voted for a politician whose platform was to join Russia. I think we agree on everything up to this point.


February 27, 2014: the Crimean “Crisis”: Part of the confusion could be the names they use for their government:


Council of Ministers of Crimea: == Executive Branch of Crimea (which is approved by Ukraine).
Supreme Council of Crimea: == Parliament or Congress of Crimea (which is approved by Crimeans).

Roman Sohn from the EU observer wrote that, "[the gunmen] let in [the Speaker of the Parliament (who is needed to name the new prime minister according to Ukrainian constitution) and the members of the presidium of the Crimean legislature, while denying entry to officials of its executive office."

My understanding is that the guns were used to keep Ukrainian politicians (and presumably local Ukraine military forces) OUT, so that Crimean politicians could have their vote. In other words, to keep out the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch while allowing the Crimean appointed Parliament to vote.


February 27, 2014:
The Council then proceeded to hold an emergency session and passed a motion of no confidence in the and adopted a resolution to terminate its powers.

In other words, the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch was kept out so that the Crimean appointed Parliament could proceed to terminate the powers of the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch.


The parliament dismissed the Chairman and Prime Minister of Crimea, Anatolii Mohyliov, pursuant to Article 136 of the Constitution of Ukraine, and replaced him de facto with Sergey Aksyonov, a local businessman.

So the Crimean Parliament threw out the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch.
So all of the above was done to keep out the force that has repressed Crimeans for over two decades, and that force was Ukrainian rule.
The public referendum was then held on March 16, 2014. Over 83% of Crimeans participated. 95% voted to join Russia.
----------------------------------


I think it’s clear if you honestly look at the history that the majority of the Crimean population wanted, and have wanted, to join Russia for a long long time.

Putin knew this. And he wanted to cut through the bullshit—and I don’t blame him. Had he not acted, the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch of Crimea would have never allowed the referendum to go forward. They would have called their counterparts in Kiev and the freedom of self determination would have been lost.

Putin created the ability for a referendum of, by, and for the Crimean people. His usage of troops was to keep the miscreants from Kiev out, not to force votes from within.

His usage of troops was also non-violent.

Did the Ukrainian constitution allow Putin to do this? What difference does it make when the current Ukrainian government is illegitimate?

It’s like saying, technically, Edward Snowden did, indeed, unlawfully take classified government papers without authorization. He was wrong to do that. He could be put in a cage for this [u]if you want to be technical and follow the letter of the law. But look at the good that came from it! Are you honestly going to equally equate the wrongs Snowden committed to the wrongs the U.S. government committed wrt civil liberties? Imho whatever technical wrongs committed by Snowden and Putin, those wrongs have been completely wiped out, their slate is clean, because of the good they both have done for the people of the U.S. and the people of Crimea.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Well well imagine that YOU did mention that. This thread was balance to all of your type of pro Putin threads and posts. I don't take Either side. The whole point of the thead is to show there is wrong on all sides and we should stay out and NOT take sides.First off too late, the U.S. has funded a couple of Billion in inciting rebellion through just the NGOs in the Ukraine. Then there's the black ops and everyone but you, realizes that the US-UK-NATO troublemakers have incited another coup in another country. I'll tell you what "mouth kalmath", go get yourself a TOP SECRET SSBI/SCI clearance and work for the US government overseas and then just maybe you'll get a clue on what's truly going on in the world, especially with US covert operations. You've been talking out of your ass posting 100% conjecture with your 5% knowledge... not only are you insulting other foorum members, but you're embarrassing yourself. You don't know jack shit what's going on in the Ukraine or Russia, and it's obvious, you haven't learned a god damn thing. Go find another playground to cry your river.

PS: Well, there is some good news, many Ukrainian soilders in the Crimea are taking the Russian offer,to stay and join the Russian military units, instead of leaving. It may have to do with better pay/benefits, a stable government offer, or just sick of the rigged garbage out of Kiev.

[AngryCanadian]

First off too late, the U.S. has funded a couple of Billion in inciting rebellion through just the NGOs in the Ukraine. Then there's the black ops and everyone but you, realizes that the US-UK-NATO troublemakers have incited another coup in another country. I'll tell you what "mouth kalmath", go get yourself a TOP SECRET SSBI/CSI clearance and work for the US government overseas and then just maybe you'll get a clue on what's truly going on in the world, especially with US covert operations. You've been talking out of your ass posting 100% conjecture with your 5% knowledge... not only are you insulting other foorum members, but you're embarrassing yourself. You don't know jack shit what's going on in the Ukraine or Russia, and it's obvious, you haven't learned a god damn thing. Go find another playground to cry your river.

PS: Well, there is some good news, many Ukrainian soilders in the Crimea are taking the Russian offer,to stay and join the Russian military units, instead of leaving. It may have to do with better pay/benefits, a stable government offer, or just sick of the rigged garbage out of Kiev.

klamath has no idea what your American government is doing overseas, i have heard shit storms about Kosovo, klamath i hope you study more on what really went on in Kosovo, Once Serbs were taken alive as POWs they had there body parts removed as they were still alive.

Yes alive and screaming for mercy the Albanians were Barbaric and our MSM outlets have never mentioned this to the American Public yet they know this took place in Kosovo's yellow house.

Whats more some leaders, actors have organ parts of those Serbs that were slaughtered without mercy. As for Ukraine klamath you saw what happened in Egypt well Ukraine is the same as Egypt i pretty much agree with what HOLLYWOOD says.

[idiom]

You are a newby. You really don't believe I would have following Ron Paul or Rand if I hadn't been criticizing US war policies? A good place to start is decades. What I am finding so putrid is reading the same arguments for Russian foreign intervention as the Neocons used to excuse US intervention on THESE forums. I whole reason I posted this thread is because of the sickening amount of Russian neocon talking points were being posted.

Everything Putin has done recently has been peaceful and defusing of wars.

He is not advocating or actualizing the violent spread of democracy through a war machine. He has not published a list of countries that are 'evil' and proceeded to bomb them into the ground.

All of his recent movements have been reactionary with the net result of frustrating those who would start wars and slaughter people.

He is playing Real Politik for sure, but he is much closer to Bismark than Bush.

[klamath]

First off too late, the U.S. has funded a couple of Billion in inciting rebellion through just the NGOs in the Ukraine. Then there's the black ops and everyone but you, realizes that the US-UK-NATO troublemakers have incited another coup in another country. I'll tell you what "mouth kalmath", go get yourself a TOP SECRET SSBI/SCI clearance and work for the US government overseas and then just maybe you'll get a clue on what's truly going on in the world, especially with US covert operations. You've been talking out of your ass posting 100% conjecture with your 5% knowledge... not only are you insulting other foorum members, but you're embarrassing yourself. You don't know jack shit what's going on in the Ukraine or Russia, and it's obvious, you haven't learned a god damn thing. Go find another playground to cry your river.

PS: Well, there is some good news, many Ukrainian soilders in the Crimea are taking the Russian offer,to stay and join the Russian military units, instead of leaving. It may have to do with better pay/benefits, a stable government offer, or just sick of the rigged garbage out of Kiev. So I take it you have your topsecret clearance and did this work for the government otherwise how are you so knowledgable:rolleyes: hope you got paid good for your work.

[klamath]

Everything Putin has done recently has been peaceful and defusing of wars.

He is not advocating or actualizing the violent spread of democracy through a war machine. He has not published a list of countries that are 'evil' and proceeded to bomb them into the ground.

All of his recent movements have been reactionary with the net result of frustrating those who would start wars and slaughter people.

He is playing Real Politik for sure, but he is much closer to Bismark than Bush.More putin talking points.

[klamath]

klamath has no idea what your American government is doing overseas, i have heard shit storms about Kosovo, klamath i hope you study more on what really went on in Kosovo, Once Serbs were taken alive as POWs they had there body parts removed as they were still alive.

Yes alive and screaming for mercy the Albanians were Barbaric and our MSM outlets have never mentioned this to the American Public yet they know this took place in Kosovo's yellow house.

Whats more some leaders, actors have organ parts of those Serbs that were slaughtered without mercy. As for Ukraine klamath you saw what happened in Egypt well Ukraine is the same as Egypt i pretty much agree with what HOLLYWOOD says.You've heard....I have seen what happened in former Yugoslavia. I was part of the peace keeping force there. I was in Bosnia when the Kosovo war started. I adamantly disagreed with with US involvement then as well as now but I will tell you this the Serbs were no angels in that war. I saw what they did.

[klamath]

There's only been one president of Crimea: Yuriy Meshkov who was president of Crimea from 1994 to 1995; in 1995 Kiev abolished the right of Crimeans to have their own elected president. Meshkov was voted in as president in January 1994 with about 73% of the Crimean vote. His platform was to join the Russian Federation. There is a Crimea Executive Branch with a Prime Minister, but the Executive Branch of Crimea has to be approved by Kiev. Unlike the Executive Branch of Crimea, the Crimean Parliament portrays the ideals of the Crimean people in that it does not have to be approved by Kiev. Historically the "approval" of Kiev for their Executive Branch never sat well with the Parliament and its constituents, creating a long standing rift between them and the national government of Ukraine. Here's the history broken down with information from Lew Rockwell’s site starting in the early 1990s ( http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/status-of-crimea-under-existing-constitution-of-ukraine ):


Almost every year or so the citizens of Crimea voted in a referendum to separate from Ukraine. They wanted nothing to do with Ukraine. (I think we both agree on this.)


After every one of these referendums, the Ukraine government forced themselves on the people of Crimea by inserting Ukraine’s politicians into the Crimean Executive Branch of government (also known as the “Council of Ministers”. Note: there was no president, just a prime minister). This restriction did not sit well with the Crimean Parliament and its constituents, creating a long standing rift between them and the national government of Ukraine.


During the many years of struggle by the people of Crimea to completely sever their relationship with Ukraine, in January 1994 they defied Ukraine and voted to have their very own president of Crimea. Who did they vote for? Yuriy Meshkov. By what percent did he win? 72.9%. What was Yuriy Meshkov’s platform?

Yuriy Meshkov’s main political platform was to facilitate much closer relationships with the Russian Federation up to the possible annexation of Crimea by Russia. Meshkov tried to initiate a military-political union with a foreign country and completely disregarded opinions of the Ukrainian government. He also tried to force the rotation of the Russian currency, issue foreign passports to the Ukrainian population, and even transfer Crimea to the same time zone as Moscow. Sound familiar? This is the same platform as that of Aksyonov.


February 16, 1994: Yuriy Meshkov assumed the title of President of Crimea.


In May 1994, under Yuriy Meshkov, the Crimean parliament voted to restore the May 1992 Constitution (ie. greater autonomy from Ukraine).


September 1994. President of Crimea Yuriy Meshkov and parliament decided to write a new Constitution so that Meshkov could go forward with the goals of his political platform.


March 17, 1995. The Verkhovna Rada (Supreme Council of Ukraine) abolished the May 1992 Constitution (and the post of President of Crimea).

----------------------------------
So we have the history above. The people of Crimea voted by a majority of 72.9% for a president that wanted to become part of Russia. They were stuck with an executive branch “Council of Ministers” that they did not elect and did not want. Yes there were a minority of ethnic Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea that did not want Yuriy Meshkov as their president. But the majority voted for a politician whose platform was to join Russia. I think we agree on everything up to this point.


February 27, 2014: the Crimean “Crisis”: Part of the confusion could be the names they use for their government:


Council of Ministers of Crimea: == Executive Branch of Crimea (which is approved by Ukraine).
Supreme Council of Crimea: == Parliament or Congress of Crimea (which is approved by Crimeans).

Roman Sohn from the EU observer wrote that, "[the gunmen] let in [the Speaker of the Parliament (who is needed to name the new prime minister according to Ukrainian constitution) and the members of the presidium of the Crimean legislature, while denying entry to officials of its executive office."

My understanding is that the guns were used to keep Ukrainian politicians (and presumably local Ukraine military forces) OUT, so that Crimean politicians could have their vote. In other words, to keep out the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch while allowing the Crimean appointed Parliament to vote.


February 27, 2014:
The Council then proceeded to hold an emergency session and passed a motion of no confidence in the and adopted a resolution to terminate its powers.

In other words, the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch was kept out so that the Crimean appointed Parliament could proceed to terminate the powers of the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch.


The parliament dismissed the Chairman and Prime Minister of Crimea, Anatolii Mohyliov, pursuant to Article 136 of the Constitution of Ukraine, and replaced him de facto with Sergey Aksyonov, a local businessman.

So the Crimean Parliament threw out the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch.
So all of the above was done to keep out the force that has repressed Crimeans for over two decades, and that force was Ukrainian rule.
The public referendum was then held on March 16, 2014. Over 83% of Crimeans participated. 95% voted to join Russia.
----------------------------------


I think it’s clear if you honestly look at the history that the majority of the Crimean population wanted, and have wanted, to join Russia for a long long time.

Putin knew this. And he wanted to cut through the bullshit—and I don’t blame him. Had he not acted, the Ukrainian appointed Executive Branch of Crimea would have never allowed the referendum to go forward. They would have called their counterparts in Kiev and the freedom of self determination would have been lost.

Putin created the ability for a referendum of, by, and for the Crimean people. His usage of troops was to keep the miscreants from Kiev out, not to force votes from within.

His usage of troops was also non-violent.

Did the Ukrainian constitution allow Putin to do this? What difference does it make when the current Ukrainian government is illegitimate?

It’s like saying, technically, Edward Snowden did, indeed, unlawfully take classified government papers without authorization. He was wrong to do that. He could be put in a cage for this [u]if you want to be technical and follow the letter of the law. But look at the good that came from it! Are you honestly going to equally equate the wrongs Snowden committed to the wrongs the U.S. government committed wrt civil liberties? Imho whatever technical wrongs committed by Snowden and Putin, those wrongs have been completely wiped out, their slate is clean, because of the good they both have done for the people of the U.S. and the people of Crimea.

And through all of that you failed to see the glaring fact that the pro Russian side Never got above 73 percent yet when Russian troops are patrolling the streets suddenly it is 95% an unheard of number in mixed group elections.

[acptulsa]

And through all of that you failed to see the glaring fact that the pro Russian side Never got above 73 percent yet when Russian troops are patrolling the streets suddenly it is 95% an unheard of number in mixed group elections.

Well that's a stretch. Did not mention is not the same as did not notice.

So, is the difference due to a stuffed Russian ballot box? Or is the difference due to a widespread desire to get the hell away from those neo nazis the CIA installed?

Wish we could know for sure.

[AngryCanadian]

You've heard....I have seen what happened in former Yugoslavia. I was part of the peace keeping force there. I was in Bosnia when the Kosovo war started. I adamantly disagreed with with US involvement then as well as now but I will tell you this the Serbs were no angels in that war. I saw what they did.


will tell you this the Serbs were no angels in that war.
Were Muslims as angels? you have no idea what they did to Serbs. From an
peace keeping force POV.

I was inside of the war. Your government picked the wrong side as usual.

[Philhelm]

With imperialism of his own?

Tell me why that is "good" and why we should support it?

Putin is a high level troll, and is somewhat enjoyable to watch.

*Ring, ring, ring!*
Obama: Hello?
Putin: Knock knock.
Obama: Who's there?
Putin: Crimea.
Obama: Crimea who?
Putin: Crimea river! *Click*

[klamath]

Were Muslims as angels? you have no idea what they did to Serbs. From an
peace keeping force POV.

I was inside of the war. Your government picked the wrong side as usual.Their was no right or wrong side to that war. Just a lot of Fucking killing on all sides.

[AngryCanadian]

Their was no right or wrong side to that war. Just a lot of Fucking killing on all sides.

Serbs were protecting their own i am sure you would have done the same. In war there are no rules. I will not forget the screams and cries of the innocent civilians that were on the wrong place at the wrong time.


But i know Serbs didn't start the war.

[heavenlyboy34]

With imperialism of his own?

Tell me why that is "good" and why we should support it?
I didn't say his imperialism is good, and you had no reason to infer it. I'm not aware of any objectively "good" government agent in the entire world.

[AuH20]

Serbs were protecting their own i am sure you would have done the same. In war there are no rules. I will not forget the screams and cries of the innocent civilians that were on the wrong place at the wrong time.


But i know Serbs didn't start the war.

Emphasis on that.

[klamath]

Serbs were protecting their own i am sure you would have done the same. In war there are no rules. I will not forget the screams and cries of the innocent civilians that were on the wrong place at the wrong time.


But i know Serbs didn't start the war. Those little isolated mountaintop farms were quite a threat to the Serbs? So the destruction of little homes and intentional mining of the fields and orchards so no one could live there again was protecting their own? No I fucking wouldn't have done the same.
I saw pretty much ever square mile of the area from Sarajevo to Hungry to Serbia to Croatia. One sad assed mess left there.

[Philhelm]

I'm not aware of any objectively "good" government agent in the entire world.

Duh! U.S. Navy: A global force for good.

[tod evans]

Duh! U.S. Navy: A global force for good.

16 inches of Navy "good"...

http://i1.wp.com/www.navalhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/k12603-USS-Missouri-firing-16-guns-at-Changjin-Korea-Oct-1950.jpg

[idiom]

More putin talking points.

Actually I was just pointing out that you are severely misusing the term 'neoconservative'.

Critical thinking and correct use of terms are still valuable.

[klamath]

Actually I was just pointing out that you are severely misusing the term 'neoconservative'.

Critical thinking and correct use of terms are still valuable. Actually not. Former troskyite turned a national Russian exceptionalism.

[UWDude]

And now Putin is imposing a 50% price hike on natural gas for all Ukrainians, with a series of further hikes until 2018.

Whoops, no, that's the IMF and their new Ukrainian "government".

I am sure this is exactly what the people in Ukraine were demanding.




So, here is what really just happened. NATO foolishly thought they could take the Ukraine in another color revolution. And they got it, except Putin took Crimea. That stops the US/NATO/Israel/Qatar plans for Syria for a while, since that was why they wanted to stop the whole black fleet in the first place.

Putin and Russia now have Crimea for good. But the punchline is, they'll get the entire Ukraine back in four to eight years, by popular revolt, and when they get it back, the Ukrainians will choose the lesser of two evils: Russia, and their cheap natural gas, or the IMF and their austerity measures.

I love reading all the western propaganda writers, with their expectations of how "Putin has really damaged himself" and "this was a terrible move by Putin", and "this is going to hurt Russia in the long run" and then they write out a bunch of nonsense and wishful thinking, with no basis in reality or realpolitik.


HA HA HA HA! Such Bullshit!! Anybody with any type of geopolitical sense can see this was a brilliant maneuver by Putin, so brilliant, in fact, I wouldn't not be surprised if he himself instigated it. It's the old Cossack feint, a tricky and deadly maneuver.

Check mate, NATO. You lose.

[Pericles]

Serbs were protecting their own i am sure you would have done the same. In war there are no rules. I will not forget the screams and cries of the innocent civilians that were on the wrong place at the wrong time.


But i know Serbs didn't start the war.

Wouldn't happen to be a part of the Serb community in Toronto - would you?

[HOLLYWOOD]

Unfortunately the American taxpayers will be subsidizing any energy costs and much more. Oh they'll tout it's a rainbow coalition bailout, but when you factor in how the money is moved around, it's just like every other foreign adventure, the US subsidizes "The Propaganda Bandwagon" for countries to join the international crusade in fighting the created villain with scheme after scheme. The largest of course is defense spending and the money changers ensure the deal goes down with minimum visibility. So unfortunate that there cannot be any freedom in the world when you have elitist groups controlling the money, media, and governments. Most people don't realize, they have no choice, everyone is owned by the most sociopathic corrupt beings which hold all the power.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/03/steve-weissman/the-feds-who-schemed-the-coup-in-kiev/

Meet the Americans Who Put Together the Coup in Kiev (https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/03/steve-weissman/the-feds-who-schemed-the-coup-in-kiev/) By Steve Weissman (https://www.lewrockwell.com/author/steve-weissman/?post_type=article)
Ron Paul Institute (http://ronpaulinstitute.org/)
March 26, 2014


Regardless of throwing borrowed-counterfeited money at any problem, which never solves the issue, it just creates 1000 more new problems and it's the little people that picks up ALL the costs. The Banksters and Wall street need more to keep the game of thievery going... sickening to hear the U.S. Treasury complaining about the GOP votes in the US Senate on IMF enslavement. It's like every governmental agency has turned into their own policy dictators and subversive manipulators.

The actual text doesn't seem to be posted as often as I'd think it would, so here are the words of the area the United States openly violated and for at least 3 years in a row at this stage.

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;



Source: The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) (http://www.cfr.org/arms-control-disarmament-and-nonproliferation/budapest-memorandums-security-assurances-1994/p32484)
Below, one of many expenditure charts, this one doesn't include Black Ops funds. Right off the bat, the Ukraine owes Russia $5 Billion, that's just last years energy costs and bonds maturing. How's it feel to know the taxpayer money is going right out the window, all so a government and their masters can get what THEY WANT.

http://kwout.com/cutout/9/qk/3q/s2u_bor.jpg (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1003974/pg1)




And now Putin is imposing a 50% price hike on natural gas for all Ukrainians, with a series of further hikes until 2018.

Whoops, no, that's the IMF and their new Ukrainian "government".

I am sure this is exactly what the people in Ukraine were demanding.

So, here is what really just happened. NATO foolishly thought they could take the Ukraine in another color revolution. And they got it, except Putin took Crimea. That stops the US/NATO/Israel/Qatar plans for Syria for a while, since that was why they wanted to stop the whole black fleet in the first place.

Putin and Russia now have Crimea for good. But the punchline is, they'll get the entire Ukraine back in four to eight years, by popular revolt, and when they get it back, the Ukrainians will choose the lesser of two evils: Russia, and their cheap natural gas, or the IMF and their austerity measures.

I love reading all the western propaganda writers, with their expectations of how "Putin has really damaged himself" and "this was a terrible move by Putin", and "this is going to hurt Russia in the long run" and then they write out a bunch of nonsense and wishful thinking, with no basis in reality or realpolitik.


HA HA HA HA! Such Bullshit!! Anybody with any type of geopolitical sense can see this was a brilliant maneuver by Putin, so brilliant, in fact, I wouldn't not be surprised if he himself instigated it. It's the old Cossack feint, a tricky and deadly maneuver.

Check mate, NATO. You lose.

[charrob]

And through all of that you failed to see the glaring fact that the pro Russian side Never got above 73 percent yet when Russian troops are patrolling the streets suddenly it is 95% an unheard of number in mixed group elections.

Klamath, many of the Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians in Crimea stated they were boycotting the recent election, so among the population that did vote, of course there would be a much higher percentage of pro-Russian voters!


Like it or not, the majority of Crimeans never wanted any relationship with Ukraine whatsoever. The history proves this.


Like it or not, the majority of Crimeans wanted closer relations with Russia and voted for a president whose platform was to have Crimea join the Russian Federation. The history proves this.


You still, however, have not provided any proof that there was any “force” coming from Russia during the last few months. Everything you’ve provided so far is speculation. Let’s analyze this:


Russian Troops in Crimea: Russia and Ukraine had a treaty (the 1997 Friendship Treaty) whereby 25,000 Russian troops were allowed basing rights on Crimea. How can you invade and annex a territory in which you are already legally present? Did Russia exceed this number of allowable troops? No one else has suggested this, not even the Ukrainians.


Parliament Vote: You contend that Parliament was "forced" to hold the Referendum. Where is your proof of this force? Roman Sohn from the EU observer reported that there were gunman at the Government Building door that denied entry to officials of the [Kiev Appointed] Executive Branch and allowed entry only to the [Crimean appointed] Parliament. The Historical Record shows that Crimeans have overwhelmingly objected to the Kiev appointed Executive Branch that has been forced upon them for over two decades. Additionally the prior day, as reported by Radio Free Europe (http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-crimea-parliament-stormed/25278009.html), the Parliament had attempted to pass the identical legislation but could not because the Parliament Building had been stormed by Tatar and Ukrainian protesters. In order to pass the legislation, the Crimean Parliament required the help of the gunmen to keep the Ukrainian miscreants from storming the building again. There were no reports of violence while they were there.


Referendum:




Media: There was no violence during the referendum/election reported by the media despite over 600 journalists from 169 media outlets covering the process.


Election Observers: There were 135 international observers from 23 countries (including America, Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Greece, Bulgaria and Latvia) who attended the referendum in addition to over 1,000 local Crimean observers. An international observer mission led by Polish and European Parlimentarian Mateusz Piskorski and joined by Enrique Ravello, a Catalonian separatist, as well as Bela Kovacs, a far-right Hungarian euro-deputy, said there were no indications of fraud and that their observers had not registered any violations of voting rules. Surely if there had been any sign of force, at least one of those observers would have reported it?


Election Observers who were invited but refused to attend: The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was invited. They declined because they said they were not invited by the (illegitimate) Kiev Ukrainian government who had asked that everyone boycott the referendum. OSCE issued a statement saying: “In its current form, the referendum regarding Crimea is in contradiction with the Ukrainian Constitution and must be considered illegal.”


All of the above provides solid evidence and many sited facts that the self-determination of the vast majority of Crimean People were realized on March 16, 2014 in the Crimean Referendum. So, again, I ask you: where is your non-speculative proof that there has been any Russian imposed force?

[klamath]

Klamath, many of the Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians in Crimea stated they were boycotting the recent election, so among the population that did vote, of course there would be a much higher percentage of pro-Russian voters!


Like it or not, the majority of Crimeans never wanted any relationship with Ukraine whatsoever. The history proves this.


Like it or not, the majority of Crimeans wanted closer relations with Russia and voted for a president whose platform was to have Crimea join the Russian Federation. The history proves this.


You still, however, have not provided any proof that there was any “force” coming from Russia during the last few months. Everything you’ve provided so far is speculation. Let’s analyze this:


Russian Troops in Crimea: Russia and Ukraine had a treaty (the 1997 Friendship Treaty) whereby 25,000 Russian troops were allowed basing rights on Crimea. How can you invade and annex a territory in which you are already legally present? Did Russia exceed this number of allowable troops? No one else has suggested this, not even the Ukrainians.


Parliament Vote: You contend that Parliament was "forced" to hold the Referendum. Where is your proof of this force? Roman Sohn from the EU observer reported that there were gunman at the Government Building door that denied entry to officials of the [Kiev Appointed] Executive Branch and allowed entry only to the [Crimean appointed] Parliament. The Historical Record shows that Crimeans have overwhelmingly objected to the Kiev appointed Executive Branch that has been forced upon them for over two decades. Additionally the prior day, as reported by Radio Free Europe (http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-crimea-parliament-stormed/25278009.html), the Parliament had attempted to pass the identical legislation but could not because the Parliament Building had been stormed by Tatar and Ukrainian protesters. In order to pass the legislation, the Crimean Parliament required the help of the gunmen to keep the Ukrainian miscreants from storming the building again. There were no reports of violence while they were there.


Referendum:




Media: There was no violence during the referendum/election reported by the media despite over 600 journalists from 169 media outlets covering the process.


Election Observers: There were 135 international observers from 23 countries (including America, Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Hungary, Greece, Bulgaria and Latvia) who attended the referendum in addition to over 1,000 local Crimean observers. An international observer mission led by Polish and European Parlimentarian Mateusz Piskorski and joined by Enrique Ravello, a Catalonian separatist, as well as Bela Kovacs, a far-right Hungarian euro-deputy, said there were no indications of fraud and that their observers had not registered any violations of voting rules. Surely if there had been any sign of force, at least one of those observers would have reported it?


Election Observers who were invited but refused to attend: The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) was invited. They declined because they said they were not invited by the (illegitimate) Kiev Ukrainian government who had asked that everyone boycott the referendum. OSCE issued a statement saying: “In its current form, the referendum regarding Crimea is in contradiction with the Ukrainian Constitution and must be considered illegal.”


All of the above provides solid evidence and many sited facts that the self-determination of the vast majority of Crimean People were realized on March 16, 2014 in the Crimean Referendum. So, again, I ask you: where is your non-speculative proof that there has been any Russian imposed force?Russian troops based in Crimea is different from Russian troops patrolling the streets and that is why the tartars and ukrainian weren't about to turn out. Yes crimea very likely would have voted to join the Russian federation but NOTHING you have shown has disproved that Putin applied force to make sure there was NO chance it could have gone way no matter how slight.
95% of the americans voted against Ron Paul. Are you submitting to the will of the people?

[UWDude]

NOTHING you have shown has disproved that Putin applied force to make sure there was NO chance it could have gone way no matter how slight.


Nothing you have shown has proven this, but there is massive evidence, that for decades, Crimeans, BY A VAST MAJORITY, have wanted to be with Russia, and indeed, most of Eastern Ukraine is pro-Russia. Even if you could contend that 30 or 40% did not want ot be part of Russia, that still does nto mean they want to be part of the Ukraine or IMF's debt-slaves. You are grasping at straws.

[RonPaulMall]

And through all of that you failed to see the glaring fact that the pro Russian side Never got above 73 percent yet when Russian troops are patrolling the streets suddenly it is 95% an unheard of number in mixed group elections.

You seem to be overlooking a pretty critical event that occurred in between the 73% vote and the 95% vote- the overthrow of the elected President that won that 73% by people that for the most part, scare the hell out of almost everyone in the Crimea.

Consider that in April of 1861, the Virginia Convention voted 90 to 45 to remain in the United States. A week later, Lincoln issued a proclamation demanding the states send soldiers to Washington for War. And following that proclamation that same Convention voted 88 to 55 in favor of Secession. 33% support jumped to 62%, a far more significant leap than occurred in the Crimea.

Russia did not need to put troops in the Crimea to win that vote. The troops were there for one reason and one reason alone- to prevent a war. What would have happened if Russia doesn't intervene? Well, the Crimea would have announced the referendum and the Kiev would have two options:
1) Let it play out knowing full well the result will be Anschluss with Russsia
2) Send in troops, place the Crimean Parliament under arrest, and stop the vote

Now maybe Ukraine chooses door #1, but what if they don't? Then Russia has two option:
1) Ignore Kiev's provocation and lose respect in the region
2) Go to war

Even if the odds of both events are 50/50 that still means 25% chance of what could be a bloody and horrific war. Occupying the Crimea may have been "improper" under international law, but it didn't change the outcome of the vote and took option #2 off Kiev's table, thus taking war off the table. And for that, Putin deserves a measure of respect. All our leaders ever do is start wars and make them more likely. Putin's diplomacy, on the other hand, has prevented the escalation of one war and the start of another, all in the course of a single year.

[klamath]

You seem to be overlooking a pretty critical event that occurred in between the 73% vote and the 95% vote- the overthrow of the elected President that won that 73% by people that for the most part, scare the hell out of almost everyone in the Crimea.

Consider that in April of 1861, the Virginia Convention voted 90 to 45 to remain in the United States. A week later, Lincoln issued a proclamation demanding the states send soldiers to Washington for War. And following that proclamation that same Convention voted 88 to 55 in favor of Secession. 33% support jumped to 62%, a far more significant leap than occurred in the Crimea.

Russia did not need to put troops in the Crimea to win that vote. The troops were there for one reason and one reason alone- to prevent a war. What would have happened if Russia doesn't intervene? Well, the Crimea would have announced the referendum and the Kiev would have two options:
1) Let it play out knowing full well the result will be Anschluss with Russsia
2) Send in troops, place the Crimean Parliament under arrest, and stop the vote

Now maybe Ukraine chooses door #1, but what if they don't? Then Russia has two option:
1) Ignore Kiev's provocation and lose respect in the region
2) Go to war

Even if the odds of both events are 50/50 that still means 25% chance of what could be a bloody and horrific war. Occupying the Crimea may have been "improper" under international law, but it didn't change the outcome of the vote and took option #2 off Kiev's table, thus taking war off the table. And for that, Putin deserves a measure of respect. All our leaders ever do is start wars and make them more likely. Putin's diplomacy, on the other hand, has prevented the escalation of one war and the start of another, all in the course of a single year.There were thousand of Ukrainian troops in Crimea. They could have been on the streets in a heartbeat and crushing the forced parliament vote. THEY DIDN'T. This totally disproves the notion that Putin's move was to prevent war. Had there been a totally insane government in Kiev as you and most of the other putin defenders are saying, there would have been a war as they would have ordered the troops to defend.

[AuH20]

Were Muslims as angels? you have no idea what they did to Serbs. From an
peace keeping force POV.

I was inside of the war. Your government picked the wrong side as usual.

Isn't Albania the gateway of guns and drugs to Western Europe? I find it fascinating how both the Clinton and Bush Administrations bent over backwards for such a insignificant and culturally belligerent nation.

[klamath]

You seem to be overlooking a pretty critical event that occurred in between the 73% vote and the 95% vote- the overthrow of the elected President that won that 73% by people that for the most part, scare the hell out of almost everyone in the Crimea.

Consider that in April of 1861, the Virginia Convention voted 90 to 45 to remain in the United States. A week later, Lincoln issued a proclamation demanding the states send soldiers to Washington for War. And following that proclamation that same Convention voted 88 to 55 in favor of Secession. 33% support jumped to 62%, a far more significant leap than occurred in the Crimea.

Russia did not need to put troops in the Crimea to win that vote. The troops were there for one reason and one reason alone- to prevent a war. What would have happened if Russia doesn't intervene? Well, the Crimea would have announced the referendum and the Kiev would have two options:
1) Let it play out knowing full well the result will be Anschluss with Russsia
2) Send in troops, place the Crimean Parliament under arrest, and stop the vote

Now maybe Ukraine chooses door #1, but what if they don't? Then Russia has two option:
1) Ignore Kiev's provocation and lose respect in the region
2) Go to war

Even if the odds of both events are 50/50 that still means 25% chance of what could be a bloody and horrific war. Occupying the Crimea may have been "improper" under international law, but it didn't change the outcome of the vote and took option #2 off Kiev's table, thus taking war off the table. And for that, Putin deserves a measure of respect. All our leaders ever do is start wars and make them more likely. Putin's diplomacy, on the other hand, has prevented the escalation of one war and the start of another, all in the course of a single year.

Putin is running the Syrian war. His man is in charge in Syria. His weapons are pouring into that war. Quit giving me this shit that putin is such a great diplomat that avoids war. Putin knew he would lose the war to keep his man in Syria if the west and the US got involved so he negotiated a deal that allowed him to win the war but get rid of the chemical weapons.

[Madison320]

You're free to spin all the make-believe you like..

Fact of the matter is our government has killed many more Americans in the last 40 years than Russia has..

You do realize that's a bogus comparison. Don't you?

[AuH20]

Putin is running the Syrian war. His man is in charge in Syria. His weapons are pouring into that war. Quit giving me this shit that putin is such a great diplomat that avoids war. Putin knew he would lose the war to keep his man in Syria if the west and the US got involved so he negotiated a deal that allowed him to win the war but get rid of the chemical weapons.

If Putin lost Syria, it would have been a huge hit to him economically. Some believe in the realm of a 25% GDP loss.

[klamath]

If Putin lost Syria, it would have been a huge hit to him economically. Some believe in the realm of a 25% GDP loss. I don't doubt it.

[Madison320]

What I am finding facinating is that there seems to be some who criticize Obama's interventions (rightly so) and yet cheer Putin's interventions. Some wish that the people of the US would rise up against their government and replace it with a new one and yet seem to support governments in other countries repressing uprisings there.

I agree. What bugs me is the people that think the US is as oppressive as places like Russia, Cuba, Venezuela etc. We've got problems but we've got a LONG way to go before we reach that level. Our biggest problem is our debt, which could lead to oppression like those other places, but we aren't there yet. Not even close. I think the reason some people on this website think the US is so bad is because we are saturated with bad news. We hear all about violations of US liberty but we don't hear about the far worse violations taking place in foreign countries. Go to the General Politics section and read all the Cop Kills Dog incidents. Contrast that to Russia where they "culled" the stray dog population to look nice for the Olympics. We're talking orders of magnitude difference.

[AuH20]

I agree. What bugs me is the people that think the US is as oppressive as places like Russia, Cuba, Venezuela etc. We've got problems but we've got a LONG way to go before we reach that level. Our biggest problem is our debt, which could lead to oppression like those other places, but we aren't there yet. Not even close. I think the reason some people on this website think the US is so bad is because we are saturated with bad news. We hear all about violations of US liberty but we don't hear about the far worse violations taking place in foreign countries. Go to the General Politics section and read all the Cop Kills Dog incidents. Contrast that to Russia where they "culled" the stray dog population to look nice for the Olympics. We're talking orders of magnitude difference.

Tell that to Andrew Breitbart or Michael Hastings. :D They have enough compliance that they don't need to act in such an explicit manner like the aforementioned nations. But behind closed doors, there is very little difference between us and those counties in terms of mentality. Domination is the name of the game.

[juleswin]

Putin is running the Syrian war. His man is in charge in Syria. His weapons are pouring into that war. Quit giving me this shit that putin is such a great diplomat that avoids war. Putin knew he would lose the war to keep his man in Syria if the west and the US got involved so he negotiated a deal that allowed him to win the war but get rid of the chemical weapons.


Thank god for Putin who if not for his effort, Syria will be controlled a sharia imposing, women raping, Islamic thugs. So lets not pretend he is "Running the war" he is more like running the defense to stop and invasion of unwanted cannibals.

[pcosmar]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1.0-9/1504096_10202589116243050_1989277614_n.jpg


And I still don't consider it in any way an invasion.

I'm just waiting for Ukraine to implode on it's own. That is going to be a mess.

[Zippyjuan]

Thank god for Putin who if not for his effort, Syria will be controlled a sharia imposing, women raping, Islamic thugs. So lets not pretend he is "Running the war" he is more like running the defense to stop and invasion of unwanted cannibals.

Syrian rebels are divided. They are not all radical Islamists. The current Syrian leaders have bombed women and children and hospitals and churches and in what started the whole civil war sent tanks out after peaceful demonstrators. They are not morally superior either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/13/world/middleeast/syria-rebels-turn-against-most-radical-group-tied-to-al-qaeda.html


Syria Rebels Turn Against Most Radical Group Tied to Al Qaeda
By ANNE BARNARD JAN. 12, 2014


BEIRUT, Lebanon — As a government warplane soared over the northern Syrian city of Raqqa recently, a fighter from the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, the country’s most radical group linked to Al Qaeda, watched from behind an antiaircraft gun mounted on a pickup truck. Fighters and activists from rival insurgent factions urged him to fire. He did not.

The others were incredulous, recalled one, who supports the Nusra Front, a rival group that has Al Qaeda’s official stamp of approval as its representative in the fight against President Bashar al-Assad. But the man on the truck replied, “We are here to establish the Islamic state, not to fight Assad.”

Such disputes helped set off the infighting that has swept insurgent-held northern Syria for the past week, leaving more than 500 dead, as a broad array of factions have turned against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, known as ISIS, in a showdown over tactics, power and ideology within a Sunni jihadist movement that has drawn fighters from across the world.

The dispute has reverberated far beyond Syria’s borders, analysts say, for instance carving the same divisions in the jihadist movement in Egypt between pragmatists and ideological purists from the austere Salafist movement.

In some places, like Raqqa, the fighting has even pitted the two Qaeda-inspired groups against each other. Nusra’s leaders and supporters accuse ISIS of the grave error of focusing too soon on building a radical Islamic state, the ultimate goal for both groups, at the expense of the war against Mr. Assad. In the process, they say, it has alienated potential allies, civilians and militants alike

[UWDude]

I agree. What bugs me is the people that think the US is as oppressive as places like Russia, Cuba, Venezuela etc. We've got problems but we've got a LONG way to go before we reach that level.

Bull. American puppet governments and wars have killed at least 1000 times more people than Russian, Cuban, and Venezuelan interventions combined in the past 20 years.

[UWDude]

Syrian rebels are divided. They are not all radical Islamists. The current Syrian leaders have bombed women and children and hospitals and churches and in what started the whole civil war sent tanks out after peaceful demonstrators. They are not morally superior either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/13/world/middleeast/syria-rebels-turn-against-most-radical-group-tied-to-al-qaeda.html

Can't be RPF without zippy barfing up propaganda.

OH zippy, IT'S SO WONDERFUL!! We've been hearing this same story since the start of the war! BUT FINALLY you found an article that FINALLY proved it, Zippy! One of the 10000 articles claiming that the jihadists are just a teensy, tinesy little minority that will be put away if only our strategically ineffective and tactically weak puppets could win a battle or two on their own.

Jesus christ, I've read this story at least a dozen times in the past two years. The good rebels are turning against the bad rebels, the good rebels are in charge, the good rebels will make a good government... ...but the good rebels never win any battles, the good rebels suck at fighting, the good rebels hardly have a reason to fight... ...it's the bad rebels that are the only ones that don't wimp out (because they are fighting for a piece of heaven, not some murky sense of a new democracy that might be better than the old one) at first sight of a Syrian tank. And if the rebels were to ever win, the bad rebels would beat the piss out of the good rebels, and still end up ruling the country, the chaos would not end, and the bad rebels would be "our" bad rebels, and we would get more Zippy posts telling us that the situation in Syria is great now, because the bad rebels beat up the bad assad government, and oil is flowing at a rate better than it did during the height of the Syrian civil war, and how everything is great and peechy-keen in Syria now.

BTW, have you seen what is up in Iraq and Libya lately? Still sucks poop for those people.

[Zippyjuan]

No US president can top Stalin's record.

[pcosmar]

No US president can top Stalin's record.

Stalin has been dead since 1953. He rules nothing.

Putin is not Stalin.

[UWDude]

Putin is running the Syrian war. His man is in charge in Syria. His weapons are pouring into that war. Quit giving me this shit that putin is such a great diplomat that avoids war. Putin knew he would lose the war to keep his man in Syria if the west and the US got involved so he negotiated a deal that allowed him to win the war but get rid of the chemical weapons.

I don't know if you have noticed, but the US/Israel/NATO/Qatar/Saudi Arabia alliance's modus operandi lately has been to simply arm Islamic miltiants, cause chaos, and install a new government. The new government can be weak, and for the country to be in chaos is fine, it's win win. If there is chaos, the oil is cut off, and scarcity creates higher prices, win for oil companies. If the country stabilizes, then cheap oil flows for the new contracts written by the victors. either way, the oil companies, and their shareholders (the mega banks), win.

Syria will stabilize, and the Islamic militants will be suppressed. The NATO collaborator leaders will be hung or exiled, and the collaborator soldiers will go back to living. Much better than decades of civil war.

Putin does not want war. Russia has a male population problem as it is, and the Soviet Union fell largely because of Afghanistan and the discontent it created at home.

But he also knows if somebody does not stand up to NATO soon, the whole world will be getting it's freedom through debt and austerity measures.

[UWDude]

No US president can top Stalin's record.

Stalin's record has been greatly inflated for propaganda purposes. Some recent claims have him killing a quarter of the Russian population, virtually an impossible task.

[UWDude]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1.0-9/1504096_10202589116243050_1989277614_n.jpg


And I still don't consider it in any way an invasion.

I'm just waiting for Ukraine to implode on it's own. That is going to be a mess.

I don't recall a plebiscite in any of the American invasions in the past 20 years.

[Zippyjuan]

Stalin has been dead since 1953. He rules nothing.

Putin is not Stalin.


No he isn't. You are right. Assad has killed a higher percentage of his own people than Bush, Obama, and Putin combined if we want to consider who has the best "death toll".

I don't pretend the situation in Iraq or Lybia or Syria is good. It isn't. I am only pointing out that there is no moral superiority to either side. Putin isn't Hitler conquering Europe and trying to kill all the Jews. He is trying to secure (keep) military (naval) bases for his country. The rebels in Syria aren't all rapist jihadists. But neither are they all Gandhi. And neither is Assad. Without the bases in Syria, Russia would not be supporting Assad nearly as much.

[charrob]

Yes crimea very likely would have voted to join the Russian federation

This is an accomplishment; glad we both agree!


Russian troops based in Crimea is different from Russian troops patrolling the streets

Police patrol our streets too. But they don’t use force until they actually pull someone over.


NOTHING you have shown has disproved that Putin applied force

Nothing you have shown has proved that Putin applied force.




----------------------------------

Patrols on a street do not equate to force. And were they really patrolling all the streets in Crimea, or simply driving to and from the Russian naval base to secure Russian assets in the midst of anarchy? Anyone living near a military base knows soldiers walk and drive around outside bases all the time. Was this happening more than usual in Crimea? Over 80 people had been murdered in Kiev—many by rooftop snipers; the Kiev appointed Executive Branch in Crimea as well as anti-Russian protesters stormed the Crimean Parliament building. There were documented cases of Russian speaking Ukrainians in the East being beat up and dying; there were documented cases of pro-Russian Ukrainian government officials in eastern Ukraine that were kidnapped and beat up; there is a documented case of the head of a Ukrainian news station being beat up and kidnapped. Does this situation not demand extra security?

Conjecture about patrols and why patrols were there does not equate to solid evidence. You speculate they were there to apply force, but give no example of actual force applied. I speculate that if there actually were increased patrols, that they were there to keep the peace in the midst of total anarchy amidst documented violence perpetrated by the west. Neither one of our speculations are proof. They are just that—speculations.

In our system of justice, a conviction cannot be applied on speculation. There needs to be hard proof.

[AuH20]

No US president can top Stalin's record.

Agree there. But you should look into who was supporting Stalin with more than just words. You may not like what you find.

[Philhelm]

I agree. What bugs me is the people that think the US is as oppressive as places like Russia, Cuba, Venezuela etc. We've got problems but we've got a LONG way to go before we reach that level. Our biggest problem is our debt, which could lead to oppression like those other places, but we aren't there yet. Not even close. I think the reason some people on this website think the US is so bad is because we are saturated with bad news. We hear all about violations of US liberty but we don't hear about the far worse violations taking place in foreign countries. Go to the General Politics section and read all the Cop Kills Dog incidents. Contrast that to Russia where they "culled" the stray dog population to look nice for the Olympics. We're talking orders of magnitude difference.

The "It's worse over there" argument falls flat since they're over there and it's their problem. Harsh criticism of the United States government is warranted regardless of what is happening in some shithole that nobody cares about.

[Zippyjuan]

Agree there. But you should look into who was supporting Stalin with more than just words. You may not like what you find.

The US has had lots of "friends of convenience" like Stalin. He was "an enemy of my enemy" against Hitler.

[mosquitobite]

I don't know if you have noticed, but the US/Israel/NATO/Qatar/Saudi Arabia alliance's modus operandi lately has been to simply arm Islamic miltiants, cause chaos, and install a new government. The new government can be weak, and for the country to be in chaos is fine, it's win win. If there is chaos, the oil is cut off, and scarcity creates higher prices, win for oil companies. If the country stabilizes, then cheap oil flows for the new contracts written by the victors. either way, the oil companies, and their shareholders (the mega banks), win.

Syria will stabilize, and the Islamic militants will be suppressed. The NATO collaborator leaders will be hung or exiled, and the collaborator soldiers will go back to living. Much better than decades of civil war.

Putin does not want war. Russia has a male population problem as it is, and the Soviet Union fell largely because of Afghanistan and the discontent it created at home.

But he also knows if somebody does not stand up to NATO soon, the whole world will be getting it's freedom through debt and austerity measures.

http://www.skycultureclothing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/got-clap.gif

[UWDude]

No he isn't. You are right. Assad has killed a higher percentage of his own people...

How about just "people"? Why is it that people always act like killing 100 of "his own people" is worse than killing 100,000 people in general?

I know why, because then Bush and Obama "win" the death toll count by a landslide.

[AuH20]

The US has had lots of "friends of convenience" like Stalin. He was "an enemy of my enemy" against Hitler.

And arguably worse than Hitler in terms of inhuman brutality. Patton was one of the few who came to this realization near the end of the war and then died in a sketchy jeep crash of all things.

[pcosmar]

No he isn't. You are right.

And there would be NO Civil War in Syria if it was not backed by outside interests...

Those are not "rebels", They are mercenaries. From the Arms to the foreign Fighters,, it is entirely financed by outside forces.

[HOLLYWOOD]

And there would be NO Civil War in Syria if it was not backed by outside interests...

Those are not "rebels", They are mercenaries. From the Arms to the foreign Fighters,, it is entirely financed by outside forces.If anyone had any doubts about the outside forces that commit terrorism via proxy and false flags on a daily basis...


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-27/here-youtube-false-flag-attack-syria-clip-erdogan-wanted-banned

(http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-27/here-youtube-false-flag-attack-syria-clip-erdogan-wanted-banned)Here Is The YouTube "Start A False Flag War With Syria" Leaked Recording That Erdogan (Turkish Prime Minister) Wanted Banned

UPDATE: *TURKEY'S DAVUTOGLU SAYS LEAK IS 'DECLARATION OF WAR': TURKIYE

As we noted here, Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan had blocked Twitter access to his nation ahead of what was rumored to be a "spectacular" leak before this weekend's elections (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-26/turkish-court-overturns-erdogans-twitter-ban-ahead-spectacular-leak-rumor). Then this morning, amid a mad scramble, he reportedly (despite the nation's court ruling the bans illegal) blocked YouTube access (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-27/turkey-reportedly-blocks-youtube). However, by the magic of the interwebs, we have the 'leaked' clip and it is clear why he wanted it blocked/banned. As the rough translation explains, it purports to be a conversation between key Turkish military and political leaders discussing what appears to be a false flag attack to launch war with Syria.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-1GooSDwJ8#t=507

[UWDude]

translation here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/21ib4d/leaked_recording_of_turkish_officials_discussing/

[Madison320]

Bull. American puppet governments and wars have killed at least 1000 times more people than Russian, Cuban, and Venezuelan interventions combined in the past 20 years.

What about freedom within those countries? Do you think Cuba or Russia or Venezuela is a more free place to live than the US?

[Madison320]

The "It's worse over there" argument falls flat since they're over there and it's their problem. Harsh criticism of the United States government is warranted regardless of what is happening in some shithole that nobody cares about.

I never said harsh criticism of the US is unwarranted.

I said that it's wrong to say the US is less free than those "shitholes". It doesn't help the cause of liberty to make dumb, obviously false statements.

[pcosmar]

I never said harsh criticism of the US is unwarranted.


More free,,Less free,,

meh,, the only freedom I have ever known is when I avoid any government at all.. Which is difficult and getting more difficult every day.

I can do nothing outside my thoughts that is not controlled by government.

I can not be armed.
I can not plant my land without interference. I can not engage in business without a license. Nor travel anywhere without concerns (and papers)

There is no freedom here.

[Madison320]

Stalin's record has been greatly inflated for propaganda purposes. Some recent claims have him killing a quarter of the Russian population, virtually an impossible task.

Yeah, the Soviet Union was actually a libertarian paradise. That's why they had to build a wall. To keep everyone from trying to break in and experience the good life.

[Madison320]

More free,,Less free,,

meh,, the only freedom I have ever known is when I avoid any government at all.. Which is difficult and getting more difficult every day.

I can do nothing outside my thoughts that is not controlled by government.

I can not be armed.
I can not plant my land without interference. I can not engage in business without a license. Nor travel anywhere without concerns (and papers)

There is no freedom here.


OK, never mind ....

[RonPaulMall]

There were thousand of Ukrainian troops in Crimea. They could have been on the streets in a heartbeat and crushing the forced parliament vote. THEY DIDN'T. This totally disproves the notion that Putin's move was to prevent war. Had there been a totally insane government in Kiev as you and most of the other putin defenders are saying, there would have been a war as they would have ordered the troops to defend.

The troops Kiev had in their bases in the Crimea were insufficient to pacify the region or fight the Russians. That is why the likelyhood of invasion would have been so high had the Russians not acted so quickly.

[klamath]

The troops Kiev had in their bases in the Crimea were insufficient to pacify the region or fight the Russians. That is why the likelyhood of invasion would have been so high had the Russians not acted so quickly.Wow, unbelievable justifications. The Russians weren't invading but the Ukrainians on their own soil were. :rolleyes:

[klamath]

This is an accomplishment; glad we both agree!



Police patrol our streets too. But they don’t use force until they actually pull someone over.



Nothing you have shown has proved that Putin applied force.




----------------------------------

Patrols on a street do not equate to force. And were they really patrolling all the streets in Crimea, or simply driving to and from the Russian naval base to secure Russian assets in the midst of anarchy? Anyone living near a military base knows soldiers walk and drive around outside bases all the time. Was this happening more than usual in Crimea? Over 80 people had been murdered in Kiev—many by rooftop snipers; the Kiev appointed Executive Branch in Crimea as well as anti-Russian protesters stormed the Crimean Parliament building. There were documented cases of Russian speaking Ukrainians in the East being beat up and dying; there were documented cases of pro-Russian Ukrainian government officials in eastern Ukraine that were kidnapped and beat up; there is a documented case of the head of a Ukrainian news station being beat up and kidnapped. Does this situation not demand extra security?

Conjecture about patrols and why patrols were there does not equate to solid evidence. You speculate they were there to apply force, but give no example of actual force applied. I speculate that if there actually were increased patrols, that they were there to keep the peace in the midst of total anarchy amidst documented violence perpetrated by the west. Neither one of our speculations are proof. They are just that—speculations.

In our system of justice, a conviction cannot be applied on speculation. There needs to be hard proof.Well before you go pating yourself on the back at what a skillful debater you are. I have never said that they would have voted to stay in the Ukraine. The question has always been about whether Putin was right to INVADE and whether the invasion altered the vote totals.
I guess I will leave it with this. People here piss their pants and crap all over themselves if a swat team with flake jackets drive down the street or a CARC painted helicopter flys over and you say full on military combat units in the streets, navel ships on the move, Russian troops massing on the border and the Russian parliament voting voting for full on military action isn't intimidation to the non Russian sympathizers, nothing will change your mind. You are a died in the wool Putin sympathizer.
The day the President orders the US 82nd airborne division, the 101th airborne division and the 10th mountain division onto the streets of America with the backing of the US congress as peace keeping against domestic terrorists I think I will use this line. "In our system of justice, a conviction cannot be applied on speculation. There needs to be hard proof" It is not intimidation and force until you prove otherwise.

[HOLLYWOOD]

You are a died in the wool Putin sympathizer.
The day the President orders the US 82nd airborne division, the 101th airborne division and the 10th mountain division onto the streets of America with the backing of the US congress as peace keeping against domestic terrorists I think I will use this line. "In our system of justice, a conviction cannot be applied on speculation. There needs to be hard proof" It is not intimidation and force until you prove otherwise.You're just being an asshole now...

[Pericles]

Well before you go pating yourself on the back at what a skillful debater you are. I have never said that they would have voted to stay in the Ukraine. The question has always been about whether Putin was right to INVADE and whether the invasion altered the vote totals.
I guess I will leave it with this. People here piss their pants and crap all over themselves if a swat team with flake jackets drive down the street or a CARC painted helicopter flys over and you say full on military combat units in the streets, navel ships on the move, Russian troops massing on the border and the Russian parliament voting voting for full on military action isn't intimidation to the non Russian sympathizers, nothing will change your mind. You are a died in the wool Putin sympathizer.
The day the President orders the US 82nd airborne division, the 101th airborne division and the 10th mountain division onto the streets of America with the backing of the US congress as peace keeping against domestic terrorists I think I will use this line. "In our system of justice, a conviction cannot be applied on speculation. There needs to be hard proof" It is not intimidation and force until you prove otherwise.

And there we have it.

[Anti Federalist]

Go to the General Politics section and read all the Cop Kills Dog incidents. Contrast that to Russia where they "culled" the stray dog population to look nice for the Olympics. We're talking orders of magnitude difference.

Point, missed.

[kcchiefs6465]

Well before you go pating yourself on the back at what a skillful debater you are. I have never said that they would have voted to stay in the Ukraine. The question has always been about whether Putin was right to INVADE and whether the invasion altered the vote totals.
I guess I will leave it with this. People here piss their pants and crap all over themselves if a swat team with flake jackets drive down the street or a CARC painted helicopter flys over and you say full on military combat units in the streets, navel ships on the move, Russian troops massing on the border and the Russian parliament voting voting for full on military action isn't intimidation to the non Russian sympathizers, nothing will change your mind. You are a died in the wool Putin sympathizer.
The day the President orders the US 82nd airborne division, the 101th airborne division and the 10th mountain division onto the streets of America with the backing of the US congress as peace keeping against domestic terrorists I think I will use this line. "In our system of justice, a conviction cannot be applied on speculation. There needs to be hard proof" It is not intimidation and force until you prove otherwise.
Well, the "12th Infantry Regiment and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton" compares nothing to the 101st. You were cannon fodder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army#Police_shooting)

What, by the way, did Patton say on the matter? To have sharpshooters lay down one after another, bodies in the street?

What a patriot.

Deal with what you did. Then come whine about other countries.

[AuH20]

Well, the "12th Infantry Regiment and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton" compares nothing to the 101st. You were cannon fodder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army#Police_shooting)

What, by the way, did Patton say on the matter? To have sharpshooters lay down one after another, bodies in the street?

What a patriot.

Deal with what you did. Then come whine about other countries.

Patton was a great man regardless. And that's ultimately why he was assassinated. If they has listened to him, there would have been no cold war build-up and rise of the national security state. But the TPTB as usual needed a foil (the Soviet Union) for their grand plans.

[kcchiefs6465]

Patton was a great man regardless. And that's ultimately why he was assassinated. If they has listened to him, there would have been no cold war build-up and rise of the national security state. But the TPTB as usual needed a foil (the Soviet Union) for their grand plans.
Regardless of what?

[Pericles]

Patton was a great man regardless. And that's ultimately why he was assassinated. If they has listened to him, there would have been no cold war build-up and rise of the national security state. But the TPTB as usual needed a foil (the Soviet Union) for their grand plans.

War is the culmination of convergent commercial and political interests. Wars are fought by soldiers, but they are produced by businessmen and politicians. - GEN Patton

[UWDude]

What about freedom within those countries? Do you think Cuba or Russia or Venezuela is a more free place to live than the US?

I think the world is a far less free place to live in, because of the United States. It may be free in the US, but there are plenty of hellholes outside of the US, because of the US.

If you are asking is it great to be a citizen of the empire, yes it is. It is also selfish to care only about the citizens, and not he rest of the people being subjugated for the glory of the empire.

[UWDude]

People here piss their pants and crap all over themselves if a swat team with flake jackets drive down the street or a CARC painted helicopter flys over and you say full on military combat units in the streets, navel ships on the move, Russian troops massing on the border and the Russian parliament voting voting for full on military action isn't intimidation to the non Russian sympathizers, nothing will change your mind. You are a died in the wool Putin sympathizer.
The day the President orders the US 82nd airborne division, the 101th airborne division and the 10th mountain division onto the streets of America with the backing of the US congress as peace keeping against domestic terrorists I think I will use this line. "In our system of justice, a conviction cannot be applied on speculation. There needs to be hard proof" It is not intimidation and force until you prove otherwise.

I piss and shit myself because of the way the US treats the rest of the people in the world, not americans. And American liberations have been literally thousands of times deadlier and less democratic than the current Russian "liberation" of Crimea.

Just look at the "elections" of Iraq. Same shit, except the US had no problem killing and torturing dissenters and opponents... ...for a decade. I am sure less than 200 Crimeans will be killed or imprisoned by Russia's incursion into Crimea, which was Russia before 1954... ...unlike Iraq which NEVER was part of the US.

Name one country the US invaded that even had a plebiscite beforehand. Hell, name one that had a majority of a population that even spoke English, or that had any cultural ties at all to America.

[klamath]

Always love this. Always try and limit the Russian aggression to JUST Crimea but include EVERY US transgression in history as a comparison. Maybe we ought to go back 500 years and check Russia's record:rolleyes:
I piss and shit myself because of the way the US treats the rest of the people in the world, not americans. And American liberations have been literally thousands of times deadlier and less democratic than the current Russian "liberation" of Crimea.

Just look at the "elections" of Iraq. Same shit, except the US had no problem killing and torturing dissenters and opponents... ...for a decade. I am sure less than 200 Crimeans will be killed or imprisoned by Russia's incursion into Crimea, which was Russia before 1954... ...unlike Iraq which NEVER was part of the US.

Name one country the US invaded that even had a plebiscite beforehand. Hell, name one that had a majority of a population that even spoke English, or that had any cultural ties at all to America.

[Spikender]

Going back 500 years would be unfair.

The United States is only 237 years old, so we can only go back that many years with Russia.

Besides, no one is going back hundreds of years into America's history to find these nuggets, these are literally things that happened within the last fifty years with the United States.

[klamath]

Going back 500 years would be unfair.

The United States is only 237 years old, so we can only go back that many years with Russia.

Besides, no one is going back hundreds of years into America's history to find these nuggets, these are literally things that happened within the last fifty years with the United States. Oh don't worry people won't even include Putin's own command history when comparing then.

[UWDude]

Always love this. Always try and limit the Russian aggression to JUST Crimea but include EVERY US transgression in history as a comparison. Maybe we ought to go back 500 years and check Russia's record:rolleyes:

I'm just talking about the last 20. I didn't even mention things like slavery and native genocide, and America breaking every native treaty it ever signed.

So anyway, care to name a country that had a plebiscite before the US invaded and bombed them?
Care to tell me how many Crimeans were killed in this Russian invasion?
Has the US even had one "invasion" in recent history that was didn't include missiles and tomahawks?
Did you notice this so called "invasion" people are boo-hooing has so far had about 100 rounds of ammunition fired, and maybe a handful of wounded soldiers, compared to hundreds of civilians killed and wounded AT THE LEAST when the US invades a country?
Oh, did I mention Crimeans have wanted to be a part of Russia for a long time, by a vast majority?

But NO!! Joining Russia is against the will of NATO, the will of the peoples of Crimea be damned!

[klamath]

I'm just talking about the last 20. I didn't even mention things like slavery and native genocide, and America breaking every native treaty it ever signed.

So anyway, care to name a country that had a plebiscite before the US invaded and bombed them?
Care to tell me how many Crimeans were killed in this Russian invasion?
Has the US even had one "invasion" in recent history that was didn't include missiles and tomahawks?
Did you notice this so called "invasion" people are boo-hooing has so far had about 100 rounds of ammunition fired, and maybe a handful of wounded soldiers, compared to hundreds of civilians killed and wounded AT THE LEAST when the US invades a country?
Oh, did I mention Crimeans have wanted to be a part of Russia for a long time, by a vast majority?

But NO!! Joining Russia is against the will of NATO, the will of the peoples of Crimea be damned!
Care to name me the CNC of Russia during the second Chechnya war?

[UWDude]

Care to name me the CNC of Russia during the second Chechnya war?
I'm not going to play this game. I asked you a series of questions, and you have refused to answer them. Now you expect me to answer one of yours, when you can not do me the courtesy of answering mine?

Who the hell do you think you are?

[klamath]

I'm not going to play this game. I asked you a series of questions, and you have refused to answer them. Now you expect me to answer one of yours, when you can not do me the courtesy of answering mine?

Who the hell do you think you are?
Nor am I going to play your selective comparison game. The Chechnya war question has been brought up repeatedly but crickets just chirp.

[UWDude]

Nor am I going to play your selective comparison game. The Chechnya war question has been brought up repeatedly but crickets just chirp.


Then pin a gold star to your self and stick yourself on the fridge and tell mommy you're the best.