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View Full Version : Libertarians Move In To Make A Small N.H. Town Even Smaller




Tod
03-09-2014, 11:39 AM
Turmoil in Grafton as the Free Staters are starting to have influence in the town, breeding resentment from the locals who are not into freedom so much.

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/09/288069880/libertarians-move-in-to-make-a-small-n-h-town-even-smaller

aGameOfThrones
03-09-2014, 12:03 PM
The comments... they burns us.

RM918
03-09-2014, 12:09 PM
The comments... they burns us.

Yeah, comment sections frequently make me lose my faith in humanity.

Cabal
03-09-2014, 12:57 PM
Question: If a focused libertarian effort within a relatively small town cannot be successful through the established legal means available, how can we expect these same sorts of established legal means to lead to success on an exponentially larger, national scale?

I believe Molyneux has offered this challenge in the past--if it is possible we can 'infiltrate' the establishment and affect change by way of the political process, why not prove this is possible on a smaller scale first, and then go from there? Though, admittedly, he tends to suggest we change the mafia into a charitable organization, so this situation is somewhat different, but perhaps still somewhat applicable.

69360
03-09-2014, 03:30 PM
The comments... they burns us.

Honestly the commenters have valid point. They have lived there for generations and free staters "from away" moved in and want to change the way things have always been. You can hardly blame them for being upset. A little respect for the way things are would go a long way for the free staters. I mean they liked NH so much they moved there, why change it?

I speak from experience in New England. I moved to Maine last year. No matter how long I live here I will always be "from away" and so will my kids. You aren't considered a Mainer unless your grandparents were born here. I think the saying is "a cat can have kittens in the oven, doesn't make them biscuits". I like the way life is where I live, so I don't rock the boat much. Most people don't notice I'm not a native.

Keith and stuff
03-09-2014, 03:42 PM
Honestly the commenters have valid point. They have lived there for generations and free staters "from away" moved in and want to change the way things have always been. You can hardly blame them for being upset. A little respect for the way things are would go a long way for the free staters. I mean they liked NH so much they moved there, why change it?

I speak from experience in New England. I moved to Maine last year. No matter how long I live here I will always be "from away" and so will my kids. You aren't considered a Mainer unless your grandparents were born here. I think the saying is "a cat can have kittens in the oven, doesn't make them biscuits". I like the way life is where I live, so I don't rock the boat much. Most people don't notice I'm not a native.

You make good points. Though, Maine (a dying state) isn't NH when most people (including powerful political figures) aren't originally from here.

NPR is a statist media outlet. In fact, it is the most popular media source in the nation for statists. How long have the free staters lived there? How long have the anti-liberty folks moved there? I don't know. I do know that less than 40% of adults living in NH were born in NH. For example, 1 of the Grafton state reps was born in England. The guy the got arrested at the meeting is a from Grafton. He is also a local official. Some of the locals that don't want to keep Grafton Grafton, changed the rules during the meeting. They did it because they goal is to change Grafton to make it into a more big-government place. Some of the locals don't like that so they voted against that. In NH, they small town meetings are a sport for some people. It's not that unlike the British House of Commons.

But yeah, both sides were wrong in the tactics and approach. I'm not upset that a statist family is thinking of leaving Grafton because it is so hard for them to increase the size of government with liberty activists around.

angelatc
03-09-2014, 03:48 PM
I'm not upset that a statist family is thinking of leaving Grafton because it is so hard for them to increase the size of government with liberty activists around.

Ha ha! I was wondering how much her house would cost.

Barrex
03-09-2014, 04:46 PM
I hate. There is all this talk about emotinos and yada yada yada... What are the issues they dont agree on? They mention UN and school. Is that it? It is like sending reporter to vidoetape nuclear explosion and reporter videotapes only people talking about it. Annoying.

Austrian Econ Disciple
03-09-2014, 06:14 PM
Color me unsurprised. The same shit went down in VT and CA when the hippies moved in large numbers to those states. The same thing is happening in Florida with New England transplants. Shit changes. If you don't like it, move. You're not entitled to anything else than the property you rightly own, and the liberties endowed by our humanity. I say this, even though I can be a bit bitter about New Englanders moving to Florida, but hey at least Free Staters aren't that much different than supposed values of NH unlike New Yorkers who come to Florida...

It should be interesting when the ticker hits 20k...

Tod
03-09-2014, 06:28 PM
Ha ha! I was wondering how much her house would cost.

It looks too big for my taste/needs/budget. Besides, it is on the main drag and that would be a drag.

Keith and stuff
03-09-2014, 07:35 PM
Color me unsurprised. The same shit went down in VT and CA when the hippies moved in large numbers to those states. The same thing is happening in Florida with New England transplants. Shit changes. If you don't like it, move. You're not entitled to anything else than the property you rightly own, and the liberties endowed by our humanity. I say this, even though I can be a bit bitter about New Englanders moving to Florida, but hey at least Free Staters aren't that much different than supposed values of NH unlike New Yorkers who come to Florida...
Don't be surprised if the moving of folks from NH to FL/NC picks up, the more the liberty activists are known in NH ;) There are plenty of people that love almost everything about New England except the cold. They just need a polite nudge in the southern direction :toady:

Tod
03-09-2014, 07:39 PM
Don't be surprised if the moving of folks from NH to FL/NC picks up, the more the liberty activists are known in NH ;) There are plenty of people that love almost everything about New England except the cold. They just need a polite nudge in the southern direction :toady:

New Hampshire needs more coastline. And coastal islands. New Hampshire should take over Maine.

Keith and stuff
03-09-2014, 07:51 PM
New Hampshire needs more coastline. And coastal islands. New Hampshire should take over Maine.

NH has coast line and several islands. It is known for it's lakes. But yeah, 2 towns north of NH (into ME) there is York with 1 of the most popular beaches in Maine and another beach with free parking. Just 45 minutes north of NH is Old Orchard Beach, Maine's most famous and popular beach. So while it's not technically in NH, it's closer to quite a bit of the NH population than it is to many of the folks in ME.

Just south of Seabrook Beach in NH is Salisbury Beach in MA. Crane Beach, MA is only 35 minutes south of Seabrook, NH.

About the NH beaches on the ocean, they are known as the cleanest beaches in the United States, with 2 of it's ocean beaches having the amazing level of 5 out of 5 stars! http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/06/26/195896606/a-look-at-the-nastiest-and-cleanest-u-s-beaches

New Hampshire also has many lakes with beaches. In fact, I think there might even be a pond in Grafton, NH with a beach. I might have even swam there before ;)

fr33
03-09-2014, 08:07 PM
I mean they liked NH so much they moved there, why change it?

I'm not an FSP member but my understanding is that they (the FSP) are moving to NH specifically to change it.

69360
03-10-2014, 06:11 AM
New Hampshire needs more coastline. And coastal islands. New Hampshire should take over Maine.


NH has coast line and several islands. It is known for it's lakes. But yeah, 2 towns north of NH (into ME) there is York with 1 of the most popular beaches in Maine and another beach with free parking. Just 45 minutes north of NH is Old Orchard Beach, Maine's most famous and popular beach. So while it's not technically in NH, it's closer to quite a bit of the NH population than it is to many of the folks in ME.

Just south of Seabrook Beach in NH is Salisbury Beach in MA. Crane Beach, MA is only 35 minutes south of Seabrook, NH.

About the NH beaches on the ocean, they are known as the cleanest beaches in the United States, with 2 of it's ocean beaches having the amazing level of 5 out of 5 stars! http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/06/26/195896606/a-look-at-the-nastiest-and-cleanest-u-s-beaches

New Hampshire also has many lakes with beaches. In fact, I think there might even be a pond in Grafton, NH with a beach. I might have even swam there before ;)

There is what maybe 10 miles of ocean front in NH vs. hundreds in Maine? That is what made me choose Maine over NH. I wanted to live on the coast and I couldn't afford the NH coast. I do like NH, I'll be there later today actually.


I'm not an FSP member but my understanding is that they (the FSP) are moving to NH specifically to change it.

Well yeah, if a group of people moved into your town and wanted to change the way things always have been, wouldn't you be pissed too?

Here in Maine the locals all get pissed off when out of state summer people buy up the waterfront and close off the beaches that the previous owners used to let the public use. It happens fairly often, I think that is how the people in Grafton feel about the free staters.

fisharmor
03-10-2014, 07:01 AM
I hate. There is all this talk about emotinos and yada yada yada... What are the issues they dont agree on? They mention UN and school. Is that it? It is like sending reporter to vidoetape nuclear explosion and reporter videotapes only people talking about it. Annoying.

Now multiply your experience by about a bajillion and you'll get an idea what our Ukraine coverage has been like.

Keith and stuff
03-10-2014, 07:33 AM
Well yeah, if a group of people moved into your town and wanted to change the way things always have been, wouldn't you be pissed too?

It depends. That's what the upset people in Grafton are complaining about. They are trying to change the government by making it large and liberty activists are working against those changes. The truth is people run for office all over the nation. The people running for office usually run because they want to change things, by growing the size of government. These uppity folks in Grafton are made that there are other people actually trying to stop the grow and shockingly, do what 2/3s of people suggestion they might actually support, reduce the size of the government. That has the evil statists freaking out and mad as hell. How dare someone stand up for what is right! How dare someone try to do the right thing!


Here in Maine the locals all get pissed off when out of state summer people buy up the waterfront and close off the beaches that the previous owners used to let the public use.
That actually annoys me too. When I used to live in a beach community in NH, I'd go to the York Cliff Walk in Maine. It was a great walk with a nice view, a short drive from the house I lived in. Sadly, I heard people exercised their property rights and closed down the Cliff Walk since I left the beach town. I'm not upset because people have the right to exercise their rights, but I feel part of what made York special is now lost.

kcchiefs6465
03-10-2014, 08:12 AM
Well yeah, if a group of people moved into your town and wanted to change the way things always have been, wouldn't you be pissed too?

Here in Maine the locals all get pissed off when out of state summer people buy up the waterfront and close off the beaches that the previous owners used to let the public use. It happens fairly often, I think that is how the people in Grafton feel about the free staters.
I wish a group of people would suddenly move here with the intention of establishing a reasonable, voluntary government. I suppose the people here already who benefit from what we have (plunderism) might be a little upset though. If you read the comments that was a lot of their concerns... they were upset because "libertarians" weren't "team players." (i.e that libertarians didn't wish to be extracted from to pay for what other people wanted. Had those people asked respectfully, and had the services been voluntary and necessary, I think most people would be reasonable. That is not how they think, though. They think 50.1% have legal authority to extort the minority. They want to use the government to take for their special interests. I find their whiny tantrums comical. Reminds me of kids at the store when their parents don't succumb to buying them candy)

Cabal
03-10-2014, 08:26 AM
Well yeah, if a group of people moved into your town and wanted to change the way things always have been, wouldn't you be pissed too?

I don't own any towns, so I can't really relate. How many towns do you own?

donnay
03-10-2014, 08:32 AM
There is what maybe 10 miles of ocean front in NH vs. hundreds in Maine? That is what made me choose Maine over NH. I wanted to live on the coast and I couldn't afford the NH coast. I do like NH, I'll be there later today actually.



Well yeah, if a group of people moved into your town and wanted to change the way things always have been, wouldn't you be pissed too?

Here in Maine the locals all get pissed off when out of state summer people buy up the waterfront and close off the beaches that the previous owners used to let the public use. It happens fairly often, I think that is how the people in Grafton feel about the free staters.

Yeah but that is because most of the out-of-towners are from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (formerly known as Taxachusetts). I don't blame Mainers for getting pissed, they come in and want to take a rural setting and make it urban--municipal water and sewage, street lights and paved roads which create higher taxation. The taxes in Maine are high enough. Most of the southern portion of Maine pay taxes to support the northern portion of Maine. Maine is becoming an elite playground. The motto: Vacationland. Sooner or later the native Mainers will see that motto as; Vacate land.

Lucille
03-10-2014, 08:53 AM
Well yeah, if a group of people moved into your town and wanted to change the way things always have been, wouldn't you be pissed too?

Statist locusts are abandoning the states they have destroyed, and are invading AZ, CO, TX (to name 3 states) to destroy those now. On top of it, we have immigrants, who also tend toward statistm, flooding into the country with progs demanding they be given citizenship. (Let's not even get started with their long march through the institutions.) So yeah, I can kind of relate, and I find the progs' indignation over the free state project a bit hypocritical. They don't like the taste of their own medicine, not even one drop.

angelatc
03-10-2014, 08:58 AM
Well yeah, if a group of people moved into your town and wanted to change the way things always have been, wouldn't you be pissed too?


One of the comments pointed out that the liberals didn't seem to mind when immigrants did exactly the same thing.





Here in Maine the locals all get pissed off when out of state summer people buy up the waterfront and close off the beaches that the previous owners used to let the public use. It happens fairly often, I think that is how the people in Grafton feel about the free staters.

Maine is a fairly liberal state - they should simply pass a law that gives the first 50 ft of the beach past the high tide line to the state. That's sort of how Clearwater, and maybe all of Florida worked. I do not know the specifics, but there was practically no such thing as a private beach there.

Valli6
03-10-2014, 09:52 AM
Remember Cynthia Chase, the District 8 State Representative of Keene?
December 2012:

"In the opinion of this Democrat, Free Staters are the single biggest threat the state is facing today. There is, legally, nothing we can do to prevent them from moving here to take over the state, which is their openly stated goal. In this country you can move anywhere you choose and they have that same right. What we can do is to make the environment here so unwelcoming that some will choose not to come, and some may actually leave. One way is to pass measures that will restrict the “freedoms” that they think they will find here. Another is to shine the bright light of publicity on who they are and why they are coming. They can not put their ideology into our statutes unless we elect them in great enough numbers to take over our General Court. We have already seen them try during the last session of the General Court. Our last election was a repudiation of their extremism.

Here in Keene we had a couple show up on Central Square to take part in our weekly Saturday morning peace demonstration. In the course of the conversation they allowed that they were Free Staters considering moving to Keene. The folks on the Square told them in no uncertain terms not to do that because Free Staters are not welcome here. Cheshire County is a welcoming community but not to those whose stated goal is to move in enough ideologues to steal our state, and our way of life."

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?399634-Free-Staters-Not-Welcome-in-New-Hampshire&highlight=woman+free-state+discourage

(Incidently, a NH commenter on a different website says this Maureen O'Reilly person is from New Jersey!)

Valli6
03-10-2014, 12:43 PM
It seems that the people of Grafton won't let them raise property taxes.

Valley News - January 28, 2014

....After the hearing, former town welfare administrator Maureen O’Reilly said that she hopes that more voters turn out than did so the last two Town Meetings — at each of which voters rejected her proposals to raise $10,000 toward a fund to deal with the building’s problems.

“And this is where we are today,” O’Reilly said.

Looming over all proposals for spending is a second effort by members and allies of the libertarian Free State Project to sharply limit spending.

In an article for which he collected enough signatures to put on the warrant, resident Jeremy Olson proposes a tax cap — under which the Budget Committee could not recommend an increase in property taxes of more than 1 percent over the previous year’s spending package. The cap would remain in effect year to year, unless a 60-percent majority voted to repeal it.

In 2013, at a sparsely attended deliberative session 4½ weeks before Town Meeting, Free State supporters won preliminary approval of a cut of more than $128,000 from the $954,000 budget that the Selectboard and the Budget Committee had recommended. Voters at the subsequent Town Meeting rejected that cut, leaving the town with a default budget of $940,000 — about the same amount of spending as the previous year.

Olson last year also proposed a warrant article for a tax cap, which failed to receive the 60-percent majority vote to go into effect. At Monday night’s hearing, Olson said similar caps are working in Franklin and Manchester, under the state law allowing voters to institute them. He added that voters at the deliberative session could raise the cap to 2 percent or 3 percent.

O’Reilly described the cap as “an insulting warrant article. Everybody works hard to keep their budgets low.”

Selectwoman Jennie Joyce added that if the town had to face rising and unexpected expenses with a cap at below the rate of inflation, “we’d go to hell without the handbasket.”

http://www.vnews.com/news/10409782-95/town-offices-up-for-a-vote

phill4paul
03-10-2014, 12:52 PM
Remember Cynthia Chase, the District 8 State Representative of Keene?



our weekly Saturday morning peace demonstration....Free Staters are not welcome here.

Oh, oh, oh. I just busted my gut. Frikken crying over here. LMAO.

mczerone
03-10-2014, 12:57 PM
Honestly the commenters have valid point. They have lived there for generations and free staters "from away" moved in and want to change the way things have always been. You can hardly blame them for being upset. A little respect for the way things are would go a long way for the free staters. I mean they liked NH so much they moved there, why change it?

I speak from experience in New England. I moved to Maine last year. No matter how long I live here I will always be "from away" and so will my kids. You aren't considered a Mainer unless your grandparents were born here. I think the saying is "a cat can have kittens in the oven, doesn't make them biscuits". I like the way life is where I live, so I don't rock the boat much. Most people don't notice I'm not a native.

There's a peaceful solution to that: The locals could've outbid the new movers for property.

If you want a static, insular, closed community that's immune from exterior pressure, it'll cost you.

If not, expect people that move in to bring along their own views.

Keith and stuff
03-10-2014, 02:43 PM
Oh, oh, oh. I just busted my gut. Frikken crying over here. LMAO.
I've had a family member attend that weekly Peace Vigil for years.

So this elderly guys starts talking to me. He invites me to attend the Peace Vigil. I go down there to introduce myself. He starts yelling at me. I wasn't sure how to react to an elderly man yelling at me (my relative wasn't there that day) so I just left. Some people...

ZENemy
03-10-2014, 02:57 PM
Question: If a focused libertarian effort within a relatively small town cannot be successful through the established legal means available, how can we expect these same sorts of established legal means to lead to success on an exponentially larger, national scale?

I believe Molyneux has offered this challenge in the past--if it is possible we can 'infiltrate' the establishment and affect change by way of the political process, why not prove this is possible on a smaller scale first, and then go from there? Though, admittedly, he tends to suggest we change the mafia into a charitable organization, so this situation is somewhat different, but perhaps still somewhat applicable.


Viable solutions are impossible from within the system, because the system is the problem.

Anti Federalist
03-10-2014, 03:09 PM
Yeah but that is because most of the out-of-towners are from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (formerly known as Taxachusetts). I don't blame Mainers for getting pissed, they come in and want to take a rural setting and make it urban--municipal water and sewage, street lights and paved roads which create higher taxation. The taxes in Maine are high enough. Most of the southern portion of Maine pay taxes to support the northern portion of Maine. Maine is becoming an elite playground. The motto: Vacationland. Sooner or later the native Mainers will see that motto as; Vacate land.

As an Ex-Mainer, I concur.

The Massholes want to turn the whole state into a giant Martha's Vineyard or Cape Cod, with an elite 5% otium class and everybody else scratching along in a servant class.

phill4paul
03-10-2014, 03:11 PM
I've had a family member attend that weekly Peace Vigil for years.

So this elderly guys starts talking to me. He invites me to attend the Peace Vigil. I go down there to introduce myself. He starts yelling at me. I was sure how to react to an elderly man yelling at me (my relative wasn't there that day) so I just left. Some people...

Some people....indeed.

Anti Federalist
03-10-2014, 03:14 PM
(Incidently, a NH commenter on a different website says this Maureen O'Reilly person is from New Jersey!)

Figures...

Chase is from Roach Island.

Sweetheart isn't she?

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/01/03/cynthia-chase.jpg

ZENemy
03-10-2014, 03:21 PM
Figures...

Chase is from Roach Island.

Sweetheart isn't she?

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Big-Government/2013/01/03/cynthia-chase.jpg

SHE?

Anti Federalist
03-10-2014, 03:30 PM
SHE?

Hubba hubba!

Feeding the Abscess
03-10-2014, 03:32 PM
I fapped

Anti Federalist
03-10-2014, 04:51 PM
I fapped

http://img.pandawhale.com/77971-marty-mcfly-WHAT-gif-zkEh.gif

aGameOfThrones
03-10-2014, 04:53 PM
I fapped

http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2013/05/23/blue-self.gif

ZENemy
03-10-2014, 07:32 PM
http://img.pandawhale.com/77971-marty-mcfly-WHAT-gif-zkEh.gif


lol

69360
03-10-2014, 07:56 PM
There's a peaceful solution to that: The locals could've outbid the new movers for property.

If you want a static, insular, closed community that's immune from exterior pressure, it'll cost you.

If not, expect people that move in to bring along their own views.

The problem is the locals are getting priced out of oceanfront real estate.


As an Ex-Mainer, I concur.

The Massholes want to turn the whole state into a giant Martha's Vineyard or Cape Cod, with an elite 5% otium class and everybody else scratching along in a servant class.

It's happening here. I've only lived here a year full time, but have been here visiting for 8 years now. My town has gone from a working class town to about 50/50 vacation homes and tourist trap stores.

I have to admit I don't totally hate it. It's nice and quiet the 6 months of the year the summer people are gone. The town and area has been cleaned up rather nicely. There is a lot of stuff to do in the summer now. The summer people leave a lot of money here. I guess I see both sides of it.

FWIW, my property tax is rather reasonable. I now get the homestead rebate after being here a year and it dropped to 600 a year. The big summer houses pay 10x's that and are empty 6 months a year, I would assume their money keeps my taxes low.

Anti Federalist
03-10-2014, 08:18 PM
It's happening here. I've only lived here a year full time, but have been here visiting for 8 years now. My town has gone from a working class town to about 50/50 vacation homes and tourist trap stores.

I have to admit I don't totally hate it. It's nice and quiet the 6 months of the year the summer people are gone. The town and area has been cleaned up rather nicely. There is a lot of stuff to do in the summer now. The summer people leave a lot of money here. I guess I see both sides of it.

FWIW, my property tax is rather reasonable. I now get the homestead rebate after being here a year and it dropped to 600 a year. The big summer houses pay 10x's that and are empty 6 months a year, I would assume their money keeps my taxes low.

I was eight years in southern Maine before moving to NH and watched it happen before my eyes.

My issue has always been what they do to the local commercial fishermen when the trendys show up.

Those lobster pots are so rustic and charming, until Mr Masshole Lawyer and his fourth wife get a whiff of a few nice, ripe, bait barrels on a hot summer day.

Not so quaint anymore, and before you know it, Mr Masshole Lawyer has five or six of his buddies elected as town selectmen and there goes the zoning and tax rates for the local fishouse.

In over thirty years now, I've watched it happen over and over again in Maine, Mass, NJ, Rhode Island, North Carolina, Florida...

Billy Joel, an ex commercial fisherman, sang about it:

"They tell me I can't catch no stripers, and there ain't no island left for islanders like me".