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View Full Version : Did Justin advocate "massive tax increases" in a recent speech?




Brett85
03-04-2014, 08:40 PM
This guy said he did. Does anyone know anything about this?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2014/03/02/rep-justin-amashs-libertarianism-will-greatly-disappoint-libertarians/


Recently I had the chance to see Rep. Justin Amash (R – Michigan) speak during a trip down to Florida. Known as one of the few libertarians in Congress, I approached his talk with excitement.

Figure Amash has been vocal in the verbal and legislative sense about NSA overreach, and then he’s rather famously known for consulting the Constitution ahead of every vote. The Constitution greatly limits the power of the federal government, and Amash’s consultation of it speaks to a politician who properly believes much federal government activity obnoxiously exceeds the strict limits set by our founding document.




Of course, it was Amash’s sterling reputation as a strict libertarian that made his talk a bit of a disappointment. If the fact that he looked down and read most of the speech can be ignored, his questionable economic views cannot be. Most libertarians would have been puzzled by the talk, and probably discouraged.

Indeed, it was hard to watch him read the speech without concluding that Amash is the latest in a long line of small-government talking Republicans fully willing to let the federal government grow by leaps and bounds. Evidence supporting this claim was his fixation on budget deficits over government spending, his view that massive tax increases will be required to pay the deficits off, and his strongly held belief that a balanced budget amendment is the solution to a federal government that always seems to grow no matter the political party in power.

About budget deficits, Amash believes that absent reform meant to rein them in, our economy and country will be “brought to its knees.” Interesting there is that it would take several Rose Bowls to seat all the pundits, politicians and economists who’ve said much the same over the decades. The problem is that these dire predictions never seem to come true.

Never explained by the doomsayers of the past, and not covered by Amash in the present, is what would be so bad about a scenario whereby the federal government would have trouble covering its debts. On its face, this would bring about a positive in that the investors who buy U.S. debt would simply allocate their capital elsewhere; ideally away from government consumption.

The predictable reply to the above is that default would greatly increase borrowing costs for the rest of us. Really? Apple AAPL +0.62%, Google GOOG +1.09% and Facebook are based in California, California’s government debts are legendary, but does anyone think that Apple would suddenly face financing difficulty if California were to default?

The reality is that if we ever reach the day that never seems to come, and that market signals historically embraced by conservatives and libertarians say isn’t coming, government alone would be brought to its knees. As for the rest of us, the relative unattractiveness of U.S. Treasuries would redound to the real economy through a reorientation of investment away from politicians. Money saved never lays idle despite what the economic punditry would have us believe.




Not surprisingly, Amash trotted out the tired quip used by all politicians about how we’re leaving behind a deficit mess that will be paid for by our children and grandchildren. The latter is a tried and true applause line, but Amash’s billing as a serious libertarian had me hoping for something better. Indeed, such an assertion misses the point by a mile.

For one, Amash referenced the eventual need for massive tax increases to pay off the deficits — absent spending reform. How odd, because if deficits are one’s worry, and they certainly are a concern for Amash, the last thing any deficit hawk would want to do is crash the economy with tax increases that would render far more difficult the federal government’s ability to pay them off. Seemingly lost on the congressman is that absent the economic productivity that has and continues to define the U.S., we not only would not have deficits, but the Treasuries already issued would be in freefall.

Second, while deficits aren’t the burden we’re leaving our grandchildren, a less evolved economy is. Deficits are finance, and as evidenced by the willingness of investors to line up in order to buy U.S. Treasuries, they’re an easy form of finance. The burden that deficits signal in not always vivid color is all the investment in real economic ideas that is not taking place thanks to all the government spending vacuuming up limited capital. Our grandchildren will inherit a much less evolved world in terms of technology, healthcare, and transportation advances precisely due to government waste occurring in the present. That’s the burden, and as a professed libertarian, Amash should intimately know that it is.

If this is doubted, it should be asked if readers would prefer an annual budget deficit of $500 billion amid $1.5 trillion in annual spending, or a balanced budget of $3.5 trillion. Basic economic logic of the libertarian kind calls for the former. Government spending is the burden on the economy, and whether it occurs in deficit form or through taxation is of little economic consequence.

All of which leads us to what was most disappointing about Amash’s speech. The Michigan congressman regularly referenced his desire to pass a “balanced budget amendment.” Of course, missed by Amash is just how inimical to limited government and mocking of the Constitution such an amendment would be.




To be blunt, a balanced budget amendment would legalize massive government as far as the eye can see. That’s the case because Americans are the most productive and entrepreneurial people on earth, intensely capable of creating jaw-dropping wealth. Because they are, and this is the sad part, they hand over trillions to the federal government each year.

A balanced budget amendment would legalize the spending of all that we send to Washington. This is particularly scary as the internet connects the world, and for doing so sets the stage for wealth creation that will make that of the past seem puny by comparison. Future wealth creation promises to stagger us in its scope, and if politicians like Amash pass a constitutional amendment that makes it legal for the political class to spend our trillions, we can rest assured they will. Government will grow and grow.

As a libertarian Amash should know this, and know it well. We live in a global economy, and a dollar is a dollar is a dollar whether it’s taxed or borrowed. Either way the economy suffers if politicians are allocating the capital. A balanced budget amendment means that many of those dollars will be allocated by U.S. politicians. Because this is true, it’s essential that libertarians in Congress get serious about greatly restraining the federal government overall, all the while trying to tweak the tax code so that government isn’t the recipient of so much of our wealth.

Given Amash’s billing as a libertarian, it was not unreasonable to expect that he would make an inspiring case for limited government. Instead, in a speech that was once again read almost verbatim, Amash revealed how empty is the political edition of a philosophy that elevates the rights of the individual. The libertarian movement deserves better, and hopefully Amash comes to understand why it does.

angelatc
03-04-2014, 09:12 PM
This line?
For one, Amash referenced the eventual need for massive tax increases to pay off the deficits — absent spending reform.

I take that as a warning, not a blueprint.

Brett85
03-04-2014, 09:19 PM
This line?

I take that as a warning, not a blueprint.

Yeah, but this guy was claiming that Justin actually supports massive tax increases. He was criticizing him for that comment. It seems like he's likely distorting what Justin said.

LibertyEagle
03-04-2014, 09:24 PM
Yeah, but this guy was claiming that Justin actually supports massive tax increases. He was criticizing him for that comment. It seems like he's likely distorting what Justin said.

Surely you know that isn't true. They are just twisting his words. As usual.

Occam's Banana
03-04-2014, 09:31 PM
Yeah, but this guy was claiming that Justin actually supports massive tax increases. He was criticizing him for that comment. It seems like he's likely distorting what Justin said.

Anything is possible when it comes to politicians, but in the absence of any actual evidence to the contrary - and given that I know more than just a little about Justin and have never even heard of John Tamny - I'm going with the "he's distorting what Justin said" theory.

Also, Tamny's case isn't helped by the title of his article: Rep. Justin Amash's 'Libertarianism' Will Likely Disappoint Libertarians

Does he really imagine that "libertarians" haven't heard of Amash and need to be told whether Justin's stances are likely to "disappoint" them or not?

fr33
03-04-2014, 09:48 PM
The hipsters over at EPJ took the bait of course. http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/03/forbes-rep-justin-amashs-libertarianism.html

Brett85
03-04-2014, 10:56 PM
Surely you know that isn't true. They are just twisting his words. As usual.

Yeah, I just wanted to see if people here knew anything about it.

sl7yz0r
03-05-2014, 12:26 AM
This is hilarious,
Amash is the gold standard for us now that Ron is gone,
whoever wrote this article is clueless

Anti-Neocon
03-05-2014, 10:15 AM
A "libertarian" just pops out of the woodwork to criticize Amash for not being "libertarian" enough? All Justin did was say that if we don't cut spending and want to balance the budget, the only way to do that is to increase tax revenue. This is provable fact by simple math. If S > T and you want S to be equal to T without S decreasing, then T has to increase. Anyone can see through that. Now the question is why Mr. Libertarian himself, John Tamny, did not.

angelatc
03-05-2014, 10:16 AM
I really think he spends a lot more time blowing smoke about what he thinks he understands better than Amash and us.

A balanced budget amendment wouldn't force the government to spend more than it spends now, nor would it prohibit us from reducing the size of that budget.


... if politicians like Amash pass a constitutional amendment that makes it legal for the political class to spend our trillions, we can rest assured they will. Government will grow and grow.

Maybe that's true, maybe not. But it if it true, at least the deficit wouldn't grow with it. And what would happen without it?

KCIndy
03-05-2014, 04:15 PM
Ggaah!!! Baaarrrf!!

This article is EXACTLY why I dropped my major in journalism when I was in college.

The author is a staff writer for Forbes magazine. Forbes! So what does he do? He displays a dazzling ignorance of the dangers of enormous deficits. He seems to misunderstand basic libertarian viewpoints. He doesn't really get the fact that Amash is a libertarian-minded Repubican, NOT a libertarian.

But worst of all?

HE NEVER BOTHERED TO ASK AMASH FOR AN INTERVIEW AND NEVER GAVE AMASH A CHANCE TO DEFEND HIS VIEWS.

Yeah, I know it's an Op-Ed and not a news piece. But that doesn't make it any less embarrassing for the author when his writing makes it crystal clear he doesn't understand either the person or the subject about which he's writing.

Mr. Tamny, you get a D-minus. And I'm only grading you that high because I'm giving you credit for spelling your own name correctly.

Occam's Banana
03-05-2014, 04:38 PM
One time, Rand Paul was arguing for reducing taxes and an interviewer asked him something like, "But that would reduce revenues, so wouldn't that bollix up the budget?" Rand replied that it wouldn't necessarily reduce revenues - it might even increase them (ala the Reagonomics Laffer curve stuff).

Bob Wenzel pounced on this and denounced Rand for actively & positively wanting to increase government revenues (and, by implication, government spending) - when all that Rand had actually done was defend his desire to lower taxes.

I suspect the same kind of thing is going on here with Tamny's assessment of Amash. The fact that Tamny does not include so much as a single quote from Amash (with the possible exception of the four words "brought to its knees") only reinforces this suspicion.

gnuschler
03-05-2014, 05:59 PM
Isn't it black and white? We will need to either: 1) inflate the debt away; 2) default & restructure the debt (can't talk about this when you're still borrowing); or 3) massively raise taxes to pay it back. This is a fact, not a policy proposal.

Feeding the Abscess
03-05-2014, 07:39 PM
This is hilarious,
Amash is the gold standard for us now that Ron is gone,
whoever wrote this article is clueless

Not quite. Check this thread, Amash voted for all three items:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?445669-Thomas-Massie-Voting-NO!

Anywho, Tamny brings up valid criticisms of a balanced budget amendment as well as criticisms of some of Amash's rhetoric/priorities. However, I have absolutely no idea where he's coming from, as he's all over the place when it comes to describing/criticizing libertarianism.

bwlibertyman
03-05-2014, 07:53 PM
I was forwarded this article the other day. I read it as more of a criticism that Justin didn't advocate spending cuts. The author criticizes Justin for supporting a balanced budget amendment. The author even says what's worse a 1 trillion unbalanced buget or a 3 trillion balanced budget. The author was advocating that Justin should have talked about cutting government spending not just matching revenues with expenditures.

I think it's a fair argument to be made. A balanced budget amendment is definitely a step in the right direction but at the end of the day it isn't going to solve our problems. Cutting government spending will solve our problems.

Occam's Banana
03-05-2014, 09:21 PM
I am not nearly as enamored with the idea of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" as Rand Paul and Justin Amash are. I just don't see how a BBA can be expected to be any more effective or compelling when it comes to restraining the government than any of the other routinely ignored & undermined amendments we already have. A BBA would be more of a feel-good "show piece" than anything else. It would be about as successful as Gramm-Rudman was ...

Instead of a BBA, I would prefer for Rand and Amash to be a lot more hawkish on actually & concretely cutting spending and reducing federal debt in the here and now, rather then wasting time trying to tell future Congresses to do it (especially since those future Congresses will just ignore it or worm their way around it).

Having said that, I am just not getting how Tamny thinks a BBA would be the disaster he says it would be. For example, he says the following:


To be blunt, a balanced budget amendment would legalize massive government as far as the eye can see. That’s the case because Americans are the most productive and entrepreneurial people on earth, intensely capable of creating jaw-dropping wealth. Because they are, and this is the sad part, they hand over trillions to the federal government each year.

A balanced budget amendment would legalize the spending of all that we send to Washington. This is particularly scary as the internet connects the world, and for doing so sets the stage for wealth creation that will make that of the past seem puny by comparison. Future wealth creation promises to stagger us in its scope, and if politicians like Amash pass a constitutional amendment that makes it legal for the political class to spend our trillions, we can rest assured they will. Government will grow and grow.

Speaking for myself, I wasn't aware that things such as "massive government as far as the eye can see" and "the spending of all that we send to Washington" and "the political class [spending] our trillions" were currently illegal. And none of the reasons and "becauses" provided by Tamny for his condemnation of a BBA make any sense ("Americans are the most productive and entrepeneurial people on earth" ... "the Internet connects the world" ... "future wealth creation" ... ?). What the hell does any of this have to do with the alleged badness of BBA? And what in the hell makes Tamny imagine that the federal government isn't already doing every one of the things he claims a BBA would "allow" them to do? Damned if I know ...

So anyway ... this Tamny guy thinks that the debt issue is unimportant and he apparently supports reductions in federal spending. OK. Fair enough.

But there are lots of non-libertarians who feel the same way. In fact, the only "libertarian" things Tamny ever really says are vague and very non-specific indications that he is for "limiting" and "restraining" government. But he never bothers telling us what he actually means by that. (Is it just reducing spending and opposing a BBA?) Regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with his economics (or his strong & strange anti-BBA fetish), he certainly doesn't have much business complaining about someone else's rhetoric being "disappointing" to "libertarians" ...

Mini-Me
03-06-2014, 01:50 AM
I was forwarded this article the other day. I read it as more of a criticism that Justin didn't advocate spending cuts. The author criticizes Justin for supporting a balanced budget amendment. The author even says what's worse a 1 trillion unbalanced buget or a 3 trillion balanced budget. The author was advocating that Justin should have talked about cutting government spending not just matching revenues with expenditures.

I think it's a fair argument to be made. A balanced budget amendment is definitely a step in the right direction but at the end of the day it isn't going to solve our problems. Cutting government spending will solve our problems.

The thing about a balanced budget amendment is that it virtually forces spending cuts: Once the government is no longer allowed to borrow to deficit spend, they can't hide the cost of their budget with inflation. Could you imagine the public reaction to the government trying to TRIPLE the tax rates to maintain their current spending levels? As much as Americans put up with, it wouldn't fly at all...and so the government's only remaining option would be to significantly cut spending. It would absolutely enrage everyone who demands goodies and largesse of course, but what can you do? ;)

robert68
03-22-2014, 06:07 AM
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