Amazon Warehouse Worker Case Accepted by Supreme Court

[aGameOfThrones]

The U.S. Supreme Court will use a case involving workers at Amazon.com Inc. (AMZN) warehouses to consider whether companies must pay employees for time spent undergoing security searches.

The justices today agreed to review a federal appeals court decision that allowed a lawsuit over security lines designed to prevent employee theft at Amazon warehouses in Nevada. The suit was filed by former employees of Integrity Staffing Solutions Inc., which provides temporary workers for Amazon.

Corporate groups, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, urged the court to take up the appeal, saying the issue has widespread significance. Similar claims are being pressed directly against Amazon and against CVS Pharmacy Inc. and Apple Inc.

The employees, Jesse Busk and Laurie Castro, said workers had to spend as much as 25 minutes after their shifts ended to pass through metal detectors.

The high court case centers on the Fair Labor Standards Act, which requires compensation for pre- and post-shift activities that are “integral and indispensable” to an employee’s principal activities.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-03/amazon-warehouse-worker-case-accepted-by-supreme-court.html?cmpid=yhoo

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Who the hell would work at a shithole like that? I'd soon live under a bridge.

[LibertyEagle]

It's an honest job. Nothing wrong with that.

[Reason]

Who the hell would work at a shithole like that? I'd soon live under a bridge.

A shithole like Amazon?

WTF are you talking about?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

A shithole like Amazon?

WTF are you talking about?

If that's their policy, then it's a shithole.

[Occam's Banana]

The U.S. Supreme Court will use a case involving workers at Amazon.com Inc. (AMZN) warehouses to consider whether companies must pay employees for time spent undergoing security searches.

Here we have yet another terrible & tragic instance of market failure. "There oughtta be a law ..." :rolleyes:

Why shouldn't courts also require employers to remunerate employees for time & expenses (such as fuel) involved in commuting to work?
(And while they're at it, maybe SCOTUS can finally do something about those infernal cellophane wrappers they put around CD jewel cases ...)

[kcchiefs6465]

A shithole like Amazon?

WTF are you talking about?
Have you ever worked for Amazon?

[LibertyEagle]

Geez, people. It's an honest job. Not everyone has engineering degrees and no one "owes" anyone a cushy job.

[kcchiefs6465]

Geez, people. It's an honest job. Not everyone has engineering degrees and no one "owes" anyone a cushy job.
Who are you quoting?

[oyarde]

I am kind of surprised they are not already compensating people for that time...... they should have seen this coming , easier just to pay people for time .

[ClydeCoulter]

They'll probably put more scanners in or offset working hours (time of departure) if the ruling is that they have to pay for the time in line.

This could have been avoided if they had considered the worker as they would like to be considered. Hey, the golden rule...

[jbauer]

Who the hell would work at a shithole like that? I'd soon live under a bridge.

No need for a bridge, just go down to the local health and human services building and sign up for free food, housing, utilities and most importantly a free phone!!!!

[jbauer]

Here we have yet another terrible & tragic instance of market failure. "There oughtta be a law ..." :rolleyes:

Why shouldn't courts also require employers to remunerate employees for time & expenses (such as fuel) involved in commuting to work?
(And while they're at it, maybe SCOTUS can finally do something about those infernal cellophane wrappers they put around CD jewel cases ...)

So you think a corporation should be able to require you to do "work" without compensation? After all whose bottom line is being protected by the security search. As for travel, you have the ability to live as close as you'd like to the building you work. Heck get a tent and sleep right outside the security fence.

Amazon, and all other companies owe the workers for that time. I wouldn't dream of asking one of our employees to work for free, nor would I have done it when I was an hourly employee. In fact I fought the law and the law lost at my first job when I was 16 or 17 or something like that. The restaurant wanted to hold mandatory meetings for the entire staff (unpaid). I clocked in when I came in. They found out. I told them I would not be getting ready for work, driving to town, listening to them for an hour and not be paid for atleast the time I was present at the meeting. They changed their policy after that....and held less and more productive meetings.

[angelatc]

Geez, people. It's an honest job. Not everyone has engineering degrees and no one "owes" anyone a cushy job.

I know. What on Earth is wrong with the youth of today? It's a freaking warehouse job. Lots of men have made a career out of running them.

As for the case, I assume that Amazon will lose. Pretty much anything an employer requires you to do has to be paid. I can't believe that this case has gone all the way to SCOTUS.

[angelatc]

So you think a corporation should be able to require you to do "work" without compensation?


I like the way you changed the word employer to "corporation. That's a tell.

Yes, I think an employer should be able to require you to work without compensation. You know why? Because nobody would.

This scenario is roughly the same. Say Amazon claims that they're working you 8 hours a day, paying you $10 an hour. But you have a 15 minute stop on your way out the door at night after you clock out. So you really aren't getting that full $10 an hour, and because you aren't stupid, you know that.

But it's' worth it to you.

Wait - it isn't worth it to you? Then obviously you already quit.

[klamath]

The problem I see is that the employees are basically held hostage while they are being screened.

[angelatc]

If that's their policy, then it's a shithole.


Because Amazon controls inventory lossage by screening the workers that a temporary agency sends them, it's a shithole? You've obviously never worked with temps.

You get some of the nicest most normal people you'll ever meet, but you also get people who didn't even bother to sober up from the previous night. It's a total crap shoot.

[angelatc]

The problem I see is that the employees are basically held hostage while they are being screened.


This does nothing to change that. I think that by agreeing to the screening as a condition of employment you aren't being held hostage. You agreed to those terms when you agreed to take the job.

[jbauer]

This does nothing to change that. I think that by agreeing to the screening as a condition of employment you aren't being held hostage. You agreed to those terms when you agreed to take the job.

Where's the limit? At what point does an employer have to recognize the employees rights? Or are you suggesting that the employer can do whatever they like as long as the employee either puts up with it or quits?

[TonySutton]

I don't understand the problem. If these people are not happy with job requirements they can go elsewhere.

BUT, here is the part everyone has missed. Amazon was taken to court by the TEMP AGENCY. Do you know why? Because the temp agency gets paid by Amazon for HOURS WORKED. If the temp agency wins this case then Amazon has to pay the temp agency for these extra hours. The temp agency skims their profit off the top and pays the workers. So who is the big winner? the worker? *Buzzzzz* nope, the temp agency? *ding ding* we have a winner!

[angelatc]

Where's the limit? At what point does an employer have to recognize the employees rights? Or are you suggesting that the employer can do whatever they like as long as the employee either puts up with it or quits?


"...employees rights." There's another tell.

From a libertarian standpoint, the answer is yes. The government should not have the power to dictate contractual terms between an employer and an employee.

From a constitutional Republican standpoint, my personal opinion is that the Federal government has no legitimate authority in this matter, and this is an issue that should be decided by each state.

[klamath]

This does nothing to change that. I think that by agreeing to the screening as a condition of employment you aren't being held hostage. You agreed to those terms when you agreed to take the job.that is true

[fisharmor]

The problem I see is that the employees are basically held hostage while they are being screened.

Nail, head.

Part of our philosophy includes the idea that on average people are pretty reasonable.
I'd be really quite surprised if it turned out that Amazon wasn't talked to at least twice on this issue.
Normal people don't sit in one 25 minute line and say "That's it, I'm gonna sue!"
Groups of people always contain at least some normal people, so I think it's outside of the realm of possibility that it wasn't brought up with Amazon management.

No, it's much more believable that Amazon had one guy screening 300 people trying to change shifts all at one time, that they were likely told this was bullshit, and that either they told the workers to fuck off, or, much more likely, some 27 year old Amazon staffer is now off the wagon again because he's sick and tired of telling his bosses that there's this massive worker morale problem that can be solved by putting two extra people on that line.

[Occam's Banana]

So you think a corporation should be able to require you to do "work" without compensation?

They are not being required to do any work at all (with or without compensation).
It is a matter of loss-prevention - Amazon, etc. are not making any profits from this policy.
I think if you don't like your employer's policies, then you should quit if they won't change them.
(And if quitting over such things isn't "worth it" to you, well, then, there you go ...)

Also - what has "a corporation" got to do with it? "A corporation" as opposed to what?
A "mom and pop" outfit that did the same kind of thing?
Would that somehow make it "any better" or "more acceptable?"


After all whose bottom line is being protected by the security search.

... 'coz to hell with bottom lines.
It's not like bottom lines have anything to do with why employers even exist in the first place.
Apparently, the only purpose of employers is to service the wants & needs of their employees ...
:rolleyes:

This grotesquely over-simplistic "employers vs. employees" mode of analysis - where it is somehow automatically a "bad thing" for employers (or "corporations") to protect their "bottom lines" - is just more of the Manichean "us vs. them" BS that is used to keep people divided and bickering.


As for travel, you have the ability to live as close as you'd like to the building you work. Heck get a tent and sleep right outside the security fence.

Amazon, and all other companies owe the workers for that time.

Double-standard, much? As previously noted, you also have the ability to quit. And for a lot of jobs (perhaps even most), quitting and finding another more amenable job is probably a much more viable option than moving closer to work (not to mention such ridiculous nonsense as "tenting outside the security fence"). And then there's the whole matter of how you move closer to work if you're employed by a temp agency ...

You can dance around it all you like, but if it is justifiable to force employers to pay employees for time spent on things like this, then it is every bit as justifiable to force them to pay employess for the time & expenses involved in commuting to & from work. You can have it one way, or you can have it the other way - but you don't get to have it both ways.


I wouldn't dream of asking one of our employees to work for free, nor would I have done it when I was an hourly employee. In fact I fought the law and the law lost at my first job when I was 16 or 17 or something like that. The restaurant wanted to hold mandatory meetings for the entire staff (unpaid). I clocked in when I came in. They found out. I told them I would not be getting ready for work, driving to town, listening to them for an hour and not be paid for atleast the time I was present at the meeting. They changed their policy after that....and held less and more productive meetings.

:confused: Seeing as how no courts were involved in your little anecdote, it only goes to support my point.

If these unpaid-for loss-prevention security procedures are not a violation of anyone's contractual terms of employment, then NO ONE'S rights are being abused - and the government has NO business being involved in this dispute.

[angelatc]

that is true


You know what though? Now that I think about it - they were temps. It is very likely that they were not told about it ahead of time, which would make you right.

[Occam's Banana]

You know what though? Now that I think about it - they were temps. It is very likely that they were not told about it ahead of time, which would make you right.

How often are temps fully apprised of the various policies of the various employers serviced by temp agencies before being assigned to those employers? As part of their contractual relationship with the temp agencies, do temp agencies stipulate to their temps that (by accepting an assignment to an employer) they are thereby expected to comply with the policies of the serviced employer - without necessarily having been informed of all of those policies beforehand?

[angelatc]

How often are temps fully apprised of the various policies of the various employers serviced by temp agencies before being assigned to those employers? As part of their contractual relationship with the temp agencies, do temp agencies stipulate to their temps that (by accepting an assignment to an employer) they are thereby expected to comply with the policies of the serviced employer - without necessarily having been informed of all of those policies beforehand?

Temps are typically given a lot of basic information about the job - where to go, who to talk to, what the job entails, breaks, lunch hours, etc etc. Also how to get their hours documented at the end of the day.

It is conceivable to me that Amazon didn't make it clear that after the temp signs out that they would be searched. It is also conceivable to me that even if that was included in the information that they didn't disclose how long the delay was.

But I can see that running into a barrier to exiting the building could be construed as false imprisonment in certain circumstances, the first being that the employee was not informed about it. But that's only good for a single day.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Because Amazon controls inventory lossage by screening the workers that a temporary agency sends them, it's a shithole? You've obviously never worked with temps.

You get some of the nicest most normal people you'll ever meet, but you also get people who didn't even bother to sober up from the previous night. It's a total crap shoot.


A total crapshoot? The crapshoot is randomness, a process in opposition to basic math and hence, always doomed to fail.

It's a craphole because they have low standards. Using temps. Using random methods. Expect less. Get less.

Amazon and their workers did this to themselves. The taxpayers who foot the judicial bill did this to themselves. And that ain't sarcasm.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Nail, head.

Part of our philosophy includes the idea that on average people are pretty reasonable.
I'd be really quite surprised if it turned out that Amazon wasn't talked to at least twice on this issue.
Normal people don't sit in one 25 minute line and say "That's it, I'm gonna sue!"
Groups of people always contain at least some normal people, so I think it's outside of the realm of possibility that it wasn't brought up with Amazon management.

No, it's much more believable that Amazon had one guy screening 300 people trying to change shifts all at one time, that they were likely told this was bullshit, and that either they told the workers to fuck off, or, much more likely, some 27 year old Amazon staffer is now off the wagon again because he's sick and tired of telling his bosses that there's this massive worker morale problem that can be solved by putting two extra people on that line.

Well said. The basic math. The devil in the details.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

No need for a bridge, just go down to the local health and human services building and sign up for free food, housing, utilities and most importantly a free phone!!!!


I'm there, man. Party on.

I forgot; the time's they are a changin'. :D

[pcosmar]

If that's their policy, then it's a shithole.

I was turned down for a job as a groundskeeper at a cemetery (mowing lawns) due to a background check.
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2009/08/employment-woes.html
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2009/08/update-background-check.html

I was turned down for a job at Walmart because of the background check. (without being given any reason at all)

It is pretty common.

[pcosmar]

Here we have yet another terrible & tragic instance of market failure. "There oughtta be a law ..." :rolleyes:


I would be fine with a law protecting privacy and outlawing background checks altogether,

but somehow I doubt this will lead there.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I was turned down for a job as a groundskeeper at a cemetery (mowing lawns) due to a background check.
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2009/08/employment-woes.html
http://pcosmar.blogspot.com/2009/08/update-background-check.html

I was turned down for a job at Walmart because of the background check. (without being given any reason at all)

It is pretty common.

I read your blogs, Pete. Sorry to hear about that. And yes, I know it's common. That is part of the problem and the new low standard that many have come to accept. The lack of common sense, lack of knowledge, and lack of skill with today's managers.

I've had quite a few jobs in my life. I supervised in three fairly good positions. If (as a poster expressed in an earlier post) a manager can't tell a "normal" person from a party goof off, then that person has no business in management.

You simply can't outsource basic management functions to temp agencies, labs (drug testing), and metal detector companies. Amazon's management has basically learned nothing from history. They are certainly lacking in math. And now they're probably losing money on attorneys and public relations for this case. They'll lose more when they have to buy more metal detectors and pay more TSA rejects to run them. They lose even more when they realize how the attempted detection that doesn't work in airports--also doesn't work in a warehouse.

Companies that use random methods lose. Randomness is not a replacement for basic management functions.

BTW, if I were still a manager and you applied for a position, then I would definitely consider you. I know a woman who got a felony simply because somebody else had some cocaine laying on the woman's coffee table. That was 20 years ago, and she still has a hard time. I know that woman and would hire her in a minute. Thankfully, she has a half-way decent job now because somebody had the knowledge and skill to recognize a good worker.

[DamianTV]

Do doctors get paid for Surgery Time when they have to extensively wash their hands before going into surgery?

[Ronin Truth]

I worked a Christmas rush 3rd shift as a temp at an Amazon warehouse several years back. It was kind of fun and very educational. The outgoing security check was no big deal. But it did happen after you had clocked out.

[green73]

Just picked up this bad boy for the best price around. Thanks Amazon!

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss14/meowmatt/CorsairKeyboards_zps95202fde-1_zps26ca06f4.jpg

[Madison320]

The problem I see is that the employees are basically held hostage while they are being screened.

Are they allowed to quit?

[angelatc]

I

You simply can't outsource basic management functions to temp agencies, labs (drug testing), and metal detector companies. Amazon's management has basically learned nothing from history. They are certainly lacking in math. And now they're probably losing money on attorneys and public relations for this case. They'll lose more when they have to buy more metal detectors and pay more TSA rejects to run them. They lose even more when they realize how the attempted detection that doesn't work in airports--also doesn't work in a warehouse.

That's why you're making a lot more money than Amazon, I guess.

[Mini-Me]

Just picked up this bad boy for the best price around. Thanks Amazon!

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/23-816-010-TS?$S300$

New slogan for Cherry MX Reds: "As soon as you hit your period, it will just keep on running."

[green73]

New slogan for Cherry MX Reds: "As soon as you hit your period, it will just keep on running."

:p

[Occam's Banana]

They'll lose more when they have to buy more metal detectors and pay more TSA rejects to run them. They lose even more when they realize how the attempted detection that doesn't work in airports--also doesn't work in a warehouse.

I seriously doubt that any metal detectors or TSA-style "patdowns" are involved here. This is loss-prevention - not bomb-prevention. They're checking to make sure no one is trying to smuggle items out of the warehouse.

I used to work in a textbook warehouse - a direct competitor with Amazon for the (K-12 and college) textbook market. The policy there was to check all bags, boxes, totes, backpacks, etc. of all employees after they clocked out. (If you came in with a book, you needed to get it initialled by the security guard - who was employed full-time and "in house" - or you needed to otherwise ensure that it was known to belong to you and not the company. I was assigned the job one night when the regular guy called in sick.)

This was not being done to harass anybody or "steal peoples' rights away" or "exploit the workers" or any such nonsense - and it certainly did NOT involve getting any work out of employees without due compensation. It was just common-sense loss-prevention. It never caused any problems for anyone (except for the would-be thieves who were caught - and there were several of those over the course of my time there).

AFAICT, the only problem in the Amazon case is that Amazon employs so many people that it can take the people "at the back of the line" up to 25 minutes or so to "clear the doors." This is an annoying inconvenience, to be sure - but it is no more (or less) of an annoying inconvenience than travelling to and from work. Some jobs entail such things, and some do not. One should seek the latter if one considers things like this to be intolerable.

[angelatc]

A total crapshoot? The crapshoot is randomness, a process in opposition to basic math and hence, always doomed to fail.

It's a craphole because they have low standards. Using temps. Using random methods. Expect less. Get less. .



Ok, you're totally committed to the idea that Amazon is a horrible pace to work because they have loss prevention measures in place. But from an accounting standpoint, I can assure you that even the mere threat of audits do indeed discourage and prevent theft, so it makes sense to assume that actually checking the bags of exiting workers would increase the odds that less merchandise would walk out the door.

And there are indeed times when hiring temps makes more sense than hiring employees. Any business that experiences big swings in volume are usually better off hiring temporary workers than dealing with all the paperwork that comes with employees.

[enjerth]

I worked a Christmas rush 3rd shift as a temp at an Amazon warehouse several years back. It was kind of fun and very educational. The outgoing security check was no big deal. But it did happen after you had clocked out.

If you bypassed their security measures and made your escape immediately after clocking out, could you be fired?

If you aren't free to go, then you're still on your employer's time.

[angelatc]

There might be multiple suits about this, but here's one in PA alleging the same thing, and it isn't temp workers complaining: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/15/amazon-sued-over-20-minute-unpaid-daily-security-s/

[angelatc]

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4284929236361196068&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

They are also suing Amazon because walking to and from the on-site cafeteria took 5 minutes each way, and that meant they didn't have an entire hour for lunch.

Occam's Banana, you win the internet for calling it before it came out: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?445461-Amazon-Warehouse-Worker-Case-Accepted-by-Supreme-Court&p=5440395&viewfull=1#post5440395

[brandon]

A shithole like Amazon?

WTF are you talking about?

Amazon is an excellent company to work a skilled job at. Engineers are treated great there. I'd love to work there. Actually interviewed there last fall but didn't get an offer. I can't say much about the warehouse workers, but I definitely wouldn't call amazon a shithole.

[brandon]

Here's a really cool video about the automation in amazon warehouses. The more employee regulation they're hit with the more motivation they will have to automate further.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KRjuuEVEZs

[Occam's Banana]

They are also suing Amazon because walking to and from the on-site cafeteria took 5 minutes each way, and that meant they didn't have an entire hour for lunch.

That is just ridiculous. At the textbook warehouse I mentioned working at before, anyone in receiving who smoked had to go all the way from one end of the warehouse to the other to get to the smoking lounge. It took from 3-5 minutes, depending on how fast you went and whether you stopped at the vending machines. And we only had a 30 minute lunch break (and two 15 minute breaks). No one ever talked about suing anyone over it ...

[LibertyEagle]

Who are you quoting?

No one. That is why there aren't little quote marks.

[matt0611]

I like the way you changed the word employer to "corporation. That's a tell.

Yes, I think an employer should be able to require you to work without compensation. You know why? Because nobody would.

This scenario is roughly the same. Say Amazon claims that they're working you 8 hours a day, paying you $10 an hour. But you have a 15 minute stop on your way out the door at night after you clock out. So you really aren't getting that full $10 an hour, and because you aren't stupid, you know that.

But it's' worth it to you.

Wait - it isn't worth it to you? Then obviously you already quit.

Exactly. Its a requirement that's baked into the job that they require you to do this when you leave. Don't like it you can always quit.

If I were amazon I would just pay the employees for that time and lower their hourly wage.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

That's why you're making a lot more money than Amazon, I guess.

You "guess" or do you know? Is your guessing the "crapshoot" you described earlier?


I seriously doubt that any metal detectors or TSA-style "patdowns" are involved here.

From the article: "The employees, Jesse Busk and Laurie Castro, said workers had to spend as much as 25 minutes after their shifts ended to pass through metal detectors."



I can assure you that even the mere threat of audits do indeed discourage and prevent theft, so it makes sense to assume that actually checking the bags of exiting workers would increase the odds that less merchandise would walk out the door.

And there are indeed times when hiring temps makes more sense than hiring employees. Any business that experiences big swings in volume are usually better off hiring temporary workers than dealing with all the paperwork that comes with employees.

How can you assure anyone of anything if you said earlier that hiring temps is a "crapshoot"? Good management is not a crapshoot, or something left to the wind. Good management is organization, skill, and knowledge. Good management works on probabilities and does not count on randomness or any crapshoot, whether it's for hiring or to prevent theft.

[green73]

FFS, NorthCarolinaLiberty,

Freedom to travel is an inherent human right. What the government is doing is a clear violation of that.

Working at Amazon IS NOT an inherent human right.

Edit: Further, travelling on private property is not an inherent human right.

[MelissaWV]

Do doctors get paid for Surgery Time when they have to extensively wash their hands before going into surgery?

No, because they are salaried. The trouble comes when deciding hourly compensation.

At work, drive time is paid after the first half hour and mileage after the first 15 miles, and people agree to that.

As far as the temps, they are hourly employees who are told (for sake of argument) that they're going to work an eight hour shift but they're not allowed overtime. Unfortunately the business is set up to require an unpaid extra half hour or so from them. As Angela said, this should pretty much last only one day as temps are at-will and can just not show up the next day.

I "work" extra by coming in early, cleaning my workspace, and printing out reports I need before I'm on the clock. I'm not forced to, but in order for me to be satisfactorily ready to begin working right when 8am rolls around, I do it. It lets me get a running start on the day and I do not get paid for it. If I no longer wanted to do this, I would stop. If my employer required me to work off the clock, I simply wouldn't. Fire me if you want.

Mind you, most temps are going to put up with this and more, as they usually really need the work. It's the agencies, as someone said, that stand to gain a lot from this. A half hour times how many workers?

[kcchiefs6465]

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4284929236361196068&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

They are also suing Amazon because walking to and from the on-site cafeteria took 5 minutes each way, and that meant they didn't have an entire hour for lunch.

Occam's Banana, you win the internet for calling it before it came out: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?445461-Amazon-Warehouse-Worker-Case-Accepted-by-Supreme-Court&p=5440395&viewfull=1#post5440395
Another reason their company is a piece of shit.

It was literally a quarter mile to the break room. Fifteen minute breaks were a joke.

Needless to say, I didn't work but a day. It wasn't the worst job I've ever had, but to those that put up with their bullshit, I commend them. Walk/jog 25 miles in a night and add on another half mile to eat lunch. Cigarette breaks were unheard of (because you had to walk a 3/8ths a mile to their door, and then another quarter mile to get off their property). And to top it off, you are screened when you leave.

And as Fish pointed out, there are two lines to leave, some 600+ people leaving, and only one or two security guards. It was a joke.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Green,

I'm not suggesting anything about human rights. I don't even think this should be in any court, hence my comment about living under a bridge.

These past few generations act like Amazon and Walmart are some kind of 21st century GM. The laziness of management, as demonstrated in this example of random management, is not going to get it done.--unless of course, you care nothing about low standards.

[kcchiefs6465]

I seriously doubt that any metal detectors or TSA-style "patdowns" are involved here. This is loss-prevention - not bomb-prevention. They're checking to make sure no one is trying to smuggle items out of the warehouse.
It's not even metal detectors. It is a human sized turnstyle that only allows one person out per 8 seconds or so. There were no pat downs, or wand waves. Unless they had someone on camera stealing something, and simply wanted to prevent that someone from leaving speedily, they were pointless.

Of course, if someone stole a case of Ipads, for example, they could hit the nearest emergency exit in any case.

Pretty much pointless. On top of it being a shitty job (at least, where I worked).

[pcosmar]

Simple solution,, Move the damn time clocks.Do your intrusive searches on the clock.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Another reason their company is a piece of shit.

It was literally a quarter mile to the break room. Fifteen minute breaks were a joke.

Needless to say, I didn't work but a day. It wasn't the worst job I've ever had, but to those that put up with their bullshit, I commend them. Walk/jog 25 miles in a night and add on another half mile to eat lunch. Cigarette breaks were unheard of (because you had to walk a 3/8ths a mile to their door, and then another quarter mile to get off their property). And to top it off, you are screened when you leave.

And as Fish pointed out, there are two lines to leave, some 600+ people leaving, and only one or two security guards. It was a joke.

Nice insight from somebody who worked there. Nice input regarding the real math.



Of course, if someone stole a case of Ipads, for example, they could hit the nearest emergency exit in any case.

Pretty much pointless.

One of a zillion ways to bypass their "audits" of security. I could go in there figure out how to clean up six ways from Sunday in a matter of minutes. I'm sure you can, too.

[Occam's Banana]

From the article: "The employees, Jesse Busk and Laurie Castro, said workers had to spend as much as 25 minutes after their shifts ended to pass through metal detectors."

In that case, I stand corrected on this particular point.

But even this is not unreasonable, given the quantity of detectably metal items sold by Amazon.

[green73]

Green,

I'm not suggesting anything about human rights. I don't even think this should be in any court, hence my comment about living under a bridge.

These past few generations act like Amazon and Walmart are some kind of 21st century GM. The laziness of management, as demonstrated in this example of random management, is not going to get it done.--unless of course, you care nothing about low standards.


Low standards? That sounds like a gap in the market...if what you are saying is true.

[angelatc]

You "guess" or do you know? Is your guessing the "crapshoot" you described earlier?

I am 100% positive that Jeff Bezos makes tons and tons more money than you/




From the article: "The employees, Jesse Busk and Laurie Castro, said workers had to spend as much as 25 minutes after their shifts ended to pass through metal detectors."


How can you assure anyone of anything if you said earlier that hiring temps is a "crapshoot"?
Hiring temps *is* a crapshoot for exactly the reason I said. You seem to think that it presents an unacceptable risk, but thats not always the case.




]Good management is not a crapshoot, or something left to the wind. Good management is organization, skill, and knowledge. Good management works on probabilities and does not count on randomness or any crapshoot, whether it's for hiring or to prevent theft.

Yeah, I'm totally convinced that you are not now or have ever actually managed anything bigger than a softball concession stand in real life.

[LibertyEagle]

You "guess" or do you know? Is your guessing the "crapshoot" you described earlier?

From the article: "The employees, Jesse Busk and Laurie Castro, said workers had to spend as much as 25 minutes after their shifts ended to pass through metal detectors."

How can you assure anyone of anything if you said earlier that hiring temps is a "crapshoot"? Good management is not a crapshoot, or something left to the wind. Good management is organization, skill, and knowledge. Good management works on probabilities and does not count on randomness or any crapshoot, whether it's for hiring or to prevent theft.

So what? I have had jobs that it took me over 30 minutes to walk to the parking lot. Yes, it was that far away. The choice was always mine; I had the option to quit.

[angelatc]

It's not even metal detectors. It is a human sized turnstyle that only allows one person out per 8 seconds or so. There were no pat downs, or wand waves. Unless they had someone on camera stealing something, and simply wanted to prevent that someone from leaving speedily, they were pointless.

Of course, if someone stole a case of Ipads, for example, they could hit the nearest emergency exit in any case.

Pretty much pointless. On top of it being a shitty job (at least, where I worked).


Aren't you the same guy that couldn't handle working at WalMart, either? Apparently those jobs aren't for delicate little flowers who don't want to work very hard, I guess...

I would be willing to bet that the fire exits are alarmed.

According to the lawsuit, there were indeed wands and metal detectors.

I am starting to understand why illegal immigration is such a problem.

The SCOTUS case describes the process as such:
Busk and Castro alleged Integrity violated federal and state labor laws by requiring them to pass through a security clearance at the end of each shift, for which they were not compensated. Employees waited up to 25 minutes to be searched; removed their wallets, keys, and belts; and passed through metal detectors. The plaintiffs alleged the clearances were "necessary to the employer's task of minimizing `shrinkage' or loss of product from warehouse theft."

The case in Philadelphia describes a slightly different process:


Their daily routine, NBC (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/nbc/) reported: Walk through metal detectors at the start of shifts and undergo wand screening, which takes between 10 to 20 minutes to finish. Do the same at the end of work shifts — and again, after clocking out for their 30-minute lunch breaks.

I think it probably is going to be decided in favor of the employees, and those employees will end up not getting a raise next year.

[kcchiefs6465]

I think most people fail to truly appreciate how corrupted and backwards our "free market" system is.

While I'm sure there are people who like working for Amazon (I met a couple, actually) most do not and would not subject themselves to it if they had any other choice. Amazon would be forced to change their employer practices or face having a shortage of labor. And while it is not the government's place to meddle with regards to contracts, I find myself particularly unsympathetic to companies who enjoy their status partly, or mainly, because of government intervention, corporate subsidies, and fascist schemes. Who knows how who would act without government corrupting the market? Perhaps Amazon wouldn't pimp your information or so readily comply with government orders (I can't rightly blame them on the last point, though some companies have taken stake in fighting these unconstitutional pricks.. most notably, Gibson)...

Perhaps those working for Amazon would attempt to start a business of their own? Barbering, for example, wouldn't be such a bad gig if your money wasn't robbed and your home raided if one was working from it. Other things as well. People offering a service or product, and people paying for said service or product.

Untold prosperity.

And add in being allowed to transact in whatever one wants... this fuckin' recession might end.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Yeah, I'm totally convinced that you are not now or have ever actually managed anything bigger than a softball concession stand in real life.


I managed in three different office positions for 11 years. One job was about a dozen employees. One job was five employees. One job was six employees. Ages ranged from high school to retired. I hired, made schedules, evaluated, etc.

Care to discuss your management experience?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I am 100% positive that Jeff Bezos makes tons and tons more money than you/




Who's comparing myself to him? And why would I?

[kcchiefs6465]

Aren't you the same guy that couldn't handle working at WalMart, either? Apparently those jobs aren't for delicate little flowers who don't want to work very hard, I guess...

I would be willing to bet that the fire exits are alarmed.

According to the lawsuit, there were indeed wands and metal detectors.

I am starting to understand why illegal immigration is such a problem.
No, I've never applied or worked for Wal-Mart. You are confusing me with someone else.

I work harder on a daily basis than most could stomach. My work is exemplary and flawless. I take great pride in it and your insults are unwarranted. Quite frankly, my work speaks for itself. Anyone who knows me would attest this to be part of my character. I don't call off. I don't show up late. And I don't fuck around. Your republicanized quips are annoying. Fuck Amazon. They are a piece of shit company. (sell your products elsewhere, Ms. Bias)

As to fire alarms going off, yeah, sure. And they would be on camera as well. But to the tweaker who could steal $10,000 worth of merchandise carrying it, it doesn't really matter, does it? They'd smoke it up, know they have warrants on them, and do the same shit again. You're talking about some ruthless addicts who sooner sometimes murder people for pocket change. I don't much think rationale, or a simple alarm, plays into things.

As to metal detectors, there are different facilities. Maybe the one they worked at had a metal detector. The one I worked at only had full sized turnstyles.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Hiring temps *is* a crapshoot for exactly the reason I said.

Temps and temp agencies are two very different things.

[angelatc]

Who's comparing myself to him? And why would I?

I have no idea why you think you could run Amazon better than he does.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

So what? I have had jobs that it took me over 30 minutes to walk to the parking lot.


Yeah, so what? What does that have to do with anything?

[jj-]

Or are you suggesting that the employer can do whatever they like as long as the employee either puts up with it or quits?

Of course, that's how everything works in life. Your girlfriend will abuse you as long as you put up or quit. So you gotta quit if you don't like it. There shouldn't be a law for that.

[angelatc]

As to fire alarms going off, yeah, sure. And they would be on camera as well. But to the tweaker who could steal $10,000 worth of merchandise carrying it, it doesn't really matter, does it? They'd smoke it up, know they have warrants on them, and do the same shit again. You're talking about some ruthless addicts who sooner sometimes murder people for pocket change. I don't much think rationale, or a simple alarm, plays into things. There are different facilities. Maybe the one they worked at had a metal detector. The one I worked at only had full sized turnstyles.

And yet Amazon manages to keep their losses to a minimum using all these techniques that you keep implying are essentially worthless.

[kcchiefs6465]

And yet Amazon manages to keep their losses to a minimum using all these techniques that you keep implying are essentially worthless.
What are you, asset protection for them?

What is, "losses to a minimum"? Show me some figures.

I'd bet they lose millions of dollars yearly to employee theft. Probably more than ten million dollars. (but of course, that's "to a minimum")

You are so biased it's unfunny.

[angelatc]

I managed in three different office positions for 11 years. One job was about a dozen employees. One job was five employees. One job was six employees. Ages ranged from high school to retired. I hired, made schedules, evaluated, etc.

Care to discuss your management experience?


Heavens no - I hate people. I am a numbers person. The only person I ever got stuck supervising was the woman who supervised the office staff. And I passed al that that off to the eager college grad related to the owner just as soon as he got there. Life is too short to run around dealing with people.

[jj-]

If I were amazon I would just pay the employees for that time and lower their hourly wage.

I thought of that but they wouldn't be able to do that if the current wage is the minimum wage.

If they're not paying the minimum wage, then this whole discussion is an idiotic waste of time because they could just reduce the hourly pay, and count more hours, in a way that results in the exact same daily pay.

[angelatc]

What are you, asset protection for them?

What is, "losses to a minimum"? Show me some figures.

I'd bet they lose millions of dollars yearly to employee theft. Probably more than ten million dollars. (but of course, that's "to a minimum")




I don't work there, so I can't show you figures. But it is a pretty safe bet that if those procedures didn't keep employee theft to a minimum they wouldn't waste time and money on those systems. Successful companies aren't known for spending money on big systems that don't produce visible results.

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, so what? What does that have to do with anything?

lol. It has as much to do with what was necessary for the job I chose to accept as those who have to go through metal detectors upon exiting.

If people don't like what the job requires, then it is their choice to leave.

[Mini-Me]

I don't work there, so I can't show you figures. But it is a pretty safe bet that if those procedures didn't keep employee theft to a minimum they wouldn't waste time and money on those systems. Successful companies aren't known for spending money on big systems that don't produce visible results.

Tell that to EA games and Ubisoft vis-a-vis draconian DRM schemes, or Sony with their rootkit, etc. after years of experience and studies demonstrating these practices do nothing to impede piracy (and actually encourage it by making legitimate products inferior). ;) The thing about huge companies in our current regulation-laden, competition-inhibited fascist market is that economies of scale become so exaggerated that upper management can marginally get away with a lot of stupid decisions and inefficiencies that would otherwise sink them. Top management can be so far removed from the real-world that a lot of their decisions are driven more by ego than optimality by the numbers. When it comes to loss prevention in particular, both real and imagined, upper management can become so possessed by self-righteous outrage and ego that it turns into an all-consuming obsession (which is the case for the entertainment media industries). For the record I don't think Amazon has gotten to that point, but it does have a tendency to happen as companies get large. Stupid counterproductive managerial decisions from huge companies aren't just limited to loss prevention either: For an extreme example of this, look at Tim Cook's recent announcement on Apple's behalf. That one was so embarrassingly stupid that it probably won't become a long-standing policy, but you get the picture.

[angelatc]

Here's an article that will allow you to feed your anti-Amazon frenzy : http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-rules-2011-9#no-wearing-lipstick-amazon-doesnt-want-you-using-any-products-on-the-warehouse-floor-that-could-be-sold-from-the-site-our-source-was-told-lipstick-was-banned-but-lip-gloss-was-fine-1

1. No wearing lipstick: Amazon doesn't want you using any products on the warehouse floor that could be sold from the site
2. No chewing gum: This one is a bit complicated. If you show up to work chewing a piece of gum, you're allowed to keep it all day. Just don't bring in your own gum.
3. Don't show up late: This one isn't particularly crazy, but there are no excuses for being late.
4. Employees must remove their watches before entering work.
5. If you're caught talking too much, you will be separated from your neighbor
6, Employees clock-in and clock-out times are tracked down to the minute. You're given a seven-minute window after your shift ends to clock out.
7. Don't work too slow: Our source says employee work flow is tracked by scanners that prompt each person when to move on to the next order
8. You can only drink water: And all water must be stored in clear bottles so floor supervisors can tell what the liquid is.


It does sound like a crap job, but everybody has to start somewhere.

[kcchiefs6465]

I don't work there, so I can't show you figures. But it is a pretty safe bet that if those procedures didn't keep employee theft to a minimum they wouldn't waste time and money on those systems. Successful companies aren't known for spending money on big systems that don't produce visible results.
A minimum as opposed to what? Letting everyone walk out of the door, pockets bulging?

Yes, it is obvious that things are viewed through a cost to benefit lens. That doesn't mean that erecting turn styles, and simply having employees walk through them, absent anything else (though I'm sure there are cameras throughout the place) is anything more than a waste of everyone's time. I know trinkets are hard to offload, I understand this, but to imply as if their turn style program, you know, what I was referring to (not their global asset protection procedures) is some grand implementation that keeps employee theft to a minimum is laughable. I worked there. The hidden cameras did more to deter theft than having to wait extra minutes to get to your car.

You are frothing republicanism. Disgustingly so. Whenever a thread is created, you, and a couple others, rush to see who can proclaim first and the loudest, "private property!" or "just move!" or "you don't have to work there!" It's amazing to watch really, your counterparts creating quotes of owed employment. As if you have competition on who can be the bigger, more obnoxious, republican. One can't even talk about how shitty Amazon is, i.e. their own opinion having worked there, without flat out fabrications and calls to question of work ethic. It never occurred to you, that perhaps, just perhaps, Amazon (at least where I was) is a really shitty place to work. But of course, you shuffle papers and book keep in air conditioned climate control. You've never thrown trucks. Go cashier.

Of all the places I've worked, temp jobs and under the table included, Amazon was about, meh, fourth shittiest. It was their attitude and work environment that caused me to not show back up when the other shittier jobs I did remain employed there. At least at those jobs though, I could smoke a damn cigarette.

[jj-]

It does sound like a crap job

Exactly, but the conditions for workers come down to supply and demand of that type of worker. Government regulations reduce the number of people wanting to open businesses and thus reduce demand for workers, so it's the government's fault.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

lol. It has as much to do with what was necessary for the job I chose to accept as those who have to go through metal detectors upon exiting.



Your comparing metal detectors to walking to your car? What does that have to do with anything from a management standpoint?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Heavens no - I hate people.

Well, at least you're candid about it.




It does sound like a crap job,...

See, I told ya. :p

[angelatc]

A minimum as opposed to what? Letting everyone walk out of the door, pockets bulging?

Yes, it is obvious that things are viewed through a cost to benefit lens. That doesn't mean that erecting turn styles, and simply having employees walk through them, absent anything else (though I'm sure there are cameras throughout the place) is anything more than a waste of everyone's time.


I am a cost accountant, and I assume that Amazon has a few of those on staff. If that's the case, they analyze the systems continually, and can prove that the costs involved do indeed provide a financial benefit to the company.


One can't even talk about how shitty Amazon is, i.e. their own opinion having worked there, without flat out fabrications and calls to question of work ethic. It never occurred to you, that perhaps, just perhaps, Amazon (at least where I was) is a really shitty place to work. But of course, you shuffle papers and book keep in air conditioned climate control. You've never thrown trucks. Go cashier.

Blah blah blah. I've worked on an assembly line where we weren't allowed to sit down or leave our station in a warehouse that didn't have AC. We did not have cell phones back in the day....if you wanted to make a call you had to run to the phone during break, and if you weren't 1st or 2nd you likely didn't get to make your call. Lunch was 1/2 an hour, and there was no place close enough to drive during lunch, so we had to brown bag it. No refrigerator.

It's dehumanizing and demeaning to some people. I get that.

I would do it again in a heartbeat, because it is an honest days work and anybody with an ounce of initiative can pay some dues and work their way up.

[jj-]

They should sue the government because the government regulations are what made the economy so awful that this type of job has to exist.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

And speaking of working on assembly lines and walking out with stuff:



I'd get it one piece at a time
And it wouldn't cost me a dime




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GhnV-6lqH8

[kcchiefs6465]

I am a cost accountant, and I assume that Amazon has a few of those on staff. If that's the case, they analyze the systems continually, and can prove that the costs involved do indeed provide a financial benefit to the company.

Blah blah blah. I've worked on an assembly line where we weren't allowed to sit down or leave our station in a warehouse that didn't have AC. We did not have cell phones back in the day....if you wanted to make a call you had to run to the phone during break, and if you weren't 1st or 2nd you likely didn't get to make your call. Lunch was 1/2 an hour, and there was no place close enough to drive during lunch, so we had to brown bag it. No refrigerator.

It's dehumanizing and demeaning to some people. I get that.

I would do it again in a heartbeat, because it is an honest days work and anybody with an ounce of initiative can pay some dues and work their way up.
See, and I work now, until I am chided by management into taking a lunch. I do not call or text hardly, as my phone is a Googled piece of shit. I am reminded trying to clock back in to finish my work, that I still have four minutes remaining. (though I am supposed to take an hour lunch, I hardly can sit and twiddle my thumbs past a cigarette.. thirty minutes is required by law, otherwise, my lunches would consist of a smoke break. Hence, me trying to clock back in after 26 minutes and being told by law that I have to wait four minutes or whatever the time may be.) I have worked my way up in six months to a promotion. The shortest allowable. I was employee of the month as a temp, my second month there, unheard of, really. I know every one of the bosses and they comment graciously on the work I put in. I get compliments from people I've never seen about my work.

This of course ignores that without this fascist, semi-socialist model, my product would sell itself and my work already more than speaks for itself. My name would speak volumes and I would advance commercially. In short, I wouldn't even be where I am if not 'forced' (in a sense). And you insult and attempt to act better than someone as a means (apparently) to showcase how "conservative" you really are. I doubt you much care for the real meaning. Abolish it. Every goddamn last program until it is voluntary and legitimately subscribed to and paid for with those not wanting as much able to opt out without threat or coercion. Most, of whom I encounter regularly (even here), gasp at such a notion. A joke.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Hey baldy, am I being detained?





http://www.blogcdn.com/www.pawnation.com/media/2011/03/dog-leash-240kgs31411.jpg



https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT50vNT2dzx4fLRaE3JS1jMFOkReX6XP eERpg2UmiLNlepZzPbf

[Mini-Me]

Hey baldy, am I being detained?





http://www.blogcdn.com/www.pawnation.com/media/2011/03/dog-leash-240kgs31411.jpg



https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT50vNT2dzx4fLRaE3JS1jMFOkReX6XP eERpg2UmiLNlepZzPbf

WTF, is he staring into a painting of Vigo the Carpathian or something?

[jj-]

What freaking morons, better conditions cost money to the company and amazon wouldn't exist with them. It would go bankrupt.

[jj-]

Bald people are weirdos.