Should Crimea become an independent nation?

[Brian4Liberty]

Crimea is often called a peninsula, but it would be much better described as an island, with a few narrow land bridges. Over the centuries, it has been autonomous, or conquered and ruled by many different nations and empires, making it ethnically diverse.

It was declared an "autonomous republic" and part of the Soviet Union in 1921, at the end of the Bolshevik revolution. Conquered by Nazi Germany in WWII, subsequently, after the war, it was reduced in stature to the Crimean Russian province (Oblast). In 1954, the province was transferred to become a province of Ukraine. In 1991, it once again became an autonomous republic.

It appears that under the current circumstances, the Crimean Parliament has decided to hold a referendum on independence.

Much of this is not reported by the Western Media. Here's some reporting on the referendum:


Ukraine’s Crimea vote to hold a referendum on region’s future
...
Some MPs were allowed into parliament and voted to hold a referendum on greater autonomy for Crimea later in the year.

The referendum would ask people if Crimea should be part of Ukraine or have state independence.

One supporter outside parliament told euronews: “I am for the independence. I am for an independent Crimea. I am against fascism. I think it is not right that some groups of people decide instead of us. They seized power. We did not elect neither Yatseniuk nor Turchinov.”
...
More:
http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/28/ukraine-s-crimea-vote-to-hold-a-referendum-on-region-s-future/

Crimea:


Crimea is an autonomous parliamentary republic within Ukraine[5] and is governed by the Constitution of Crimea in accordance with the laws of Ukraine. The capital and administrative seat of the republic's government is the city of Simferopol, located in the center of the peninsula. Crimea's area is 26,200 square kilometres (10,100 sq mi) and its population was 1,973,185 as of 2007. These figures do not include the area and population of the City of Sevastopol (2007 population: 379,200), which is administratively separate from the autonomous republic. The peninsula thus has 2,352,385 people (2007 estimate).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Crimea_republic_map.png

Post referendum update: As I suspected, the option of total independence was not on the table. Everyone wanted this to be a tug of war with only two options. Stay with Ukraine and join the EU, or join Russia. No other options were allowed by the powers that be on both sides.

[eduardo89]

Absolutely not. Crimea is Russian territory occupied by Ukraine. It belongs to Russia.

[CaptUSA]

Should Crimea become an independent nation?DKDC

How much is it going to cost me?

[VoluntaryAmerican]

Absolutely not. Crimea is Russian territory occupied by Ukraine. It belongs to Russia.

That's funny, because for most of Ukraine's history it has been occupied by Russians and then Soviets.

[eduardo89]

That's funny, because for most of Ukraine's history it has been occupied by Russians and then Soviets.

The existence of Ukraine is a historical mistake, which hopefully Putin will rectify.

[chudrockz]

The existence of Ukraine is a historical mistake, which hopefully Putin will rectify.

So you'll be cheering as he rectifies us all straight into WWIII?

[VoluntaryAmerican]

The existence of Ukraine is a historical mistake, which hopefully Putin will rectify.

A religious man?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb1d017bgsk

[Brian4Liberty]

Absolutely not. Crimea is Russian territory occupied by Ukraine. It belongs to Russia.

My opinion is that it should be decided by the people of Crimea.


That's funny, because for most of Ukraine's history it has been occupied by Russians and then Soviets.

It's history is far longer than that.

[eduardo89]

So you'll be cheering as he rectifies us all straight into WWIII?

That won't happen.

[Brian4Liberty]

It's amazing how this false narrative has been created that says that Ukraine must be aligned with the EU or with Russia and there are no other options. How about a free and independent Crimea that is friendly with both the Ukraine and Russia?

[klamath]

So you'll be cheering as he rectifies us all straight into WWIII? I never take anything Eduardo posts seriously. Even when he says he is serious I don't take him serious. His cheeks are so puffed out by his tongue that he should be called Alvin.

[donnay]

It's amazing how this false narrative has been created that says that Ukraine must be aligned with the EU or with Russia and there are no other options. How about a free and independent Crimea that is friendly with both the Ukraine and Russia?

I definitely agree. The other things is, it is none of our business and we should stay out of it.

[jkob]

That is for the people of the Crimea to decide.

[Uriah]

The state of Ukraine is fairly new. Although, ethnic Ukrainians have had nationalistic movements for centuries. For Crimea, however, it has been an independent nation or autonomous state (mostly) ruled by various peoples for the last 1000 years.

[tod evans]

I definitely agree. The other things is, it is none of our business and we should stay out of it.


It's amazing how this false narrative has been created that says that Ukraine must be aligned with the EU or with Russia and there are no other options. How about a free and independent Crimea that is friendly with both the Ukraine and Russia?


That is for the people of the Crimea to decide.

I'm in this group...

It's none of my business...

[pcosmar]

Another question (related)

Should a Romanian of Khazar ancestry dictate what the fate of Ukraine should be?

[Brian4Liberty]

I definitely agree. The other things is, it is none of our business and we should stay out of it.

Agree. And all of this saber-rattling and sanction talk does not help the situation.

For better or worse, it's human nature for people to have an opinion on every topic, whether that opinion be ignorant or educated, biased or unbiased, with agenda or without agenda. The autonomous Republic of Crimea has decided to hold a referendum on independence. That certainly seems reasonable and fair.

[thoughtomator]

The existence of Ukraine is a historical mistake, which hopefully Putin will rectify.

Historically, "Ukraine" is a region and not an actual nation. There were nations in the region, but none share the borders of the modern Ukrainian state. The modern nation of the Ukraine was established as a Soviet satellite state. And notice we once again have a nation with borders drawn by outsiders, whose population is neatly split evenly so that unification against a foreign enemy is unlikely.

[angelatc]

Agree. And all of this saber-rattling and sanction talk does not help the situation.

For better or worse, it's human nature for people to have an opinion on every topic, whether that opinion be ignorant or educated, biased or unbiased, with agenda or without agenda. The autonomous Republic of Crimea has decided to hold a referendum on independence. That certainly seems reasonable and fair.

Absolutely. And as also stated above by others. I don't care, I hope we stay out of it, it is none of our business, and we should trade with that nation no matter who ends up in charge.

[69360]

None of my business, it's an internal matter for the Ukrainians to decide.

But I think a small population in such a strategic area will be tough to defend as an independent country. They are probably better served deciding to stay in Ukraine or join Russia.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

Ukraine is prepping troops for a potential war with Russia.

[CaptUSA]

Reps all around for anyone who thinks this is none of our business.

[DFF]

The existence of Ukraine is a historical mistake, which hopefully Putin will rectify.

I kind of agree with you. Ukraine as a whole would probably be best served under Russian control. Perhaps as an autonomous region within Russia, like Hong Kong in China.

[pcosmar]

Ukraine is prepping troops for a potential war with Russia.

That's a real good idea. :rolleyes:

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Bad_34df7c_143297.jpg

[Zippyjuan]

Absolutely not. Crimea is Russian territory occupied by Ukraine. It belongs to Russia.

Technically, it has been part of the Ukraine for 60 years - since 1954 (Ukraine was part of the USSR for most of that time).

[klamath]

It is for them to decide but unfortunately that won't happen.

[Zippyjuan]

We certainly have little to say about what happens to them.

[Acala]

We certainly have little to say about what happens to them.

I disagree. I think we could stage a massive invasion of Ukraine, build up our troops for a few months, and then march on Moscow in . . . say . . . November or December.

[Philhelm]

If Russia doesn't occupy the Ukraine then the United States will have to occupy Iceland. We cannot allow the European Union to generate five additional armies per turn.

[eduardo89]

If Russia doesn't occupy the Ukraine then the United States will have to occupy Iceland. We cannot allow the European Union to generate five additional armies per turn.

+rep for the reference to the best board game ever.

[FindLiberty]

...additional armies per turn.
Yea, those are the official rules after all!

I vote MYOB, become a free nation. Since that won't happen, Russia is my next pref.

I don't want WWW3 even if it's good for the economy. I say, STAND DOWN.

[Brian4Liberty]

None of my business, it's an internal matter for the Ukrainians to decide.

But I think a small population in such a strategic area will be tough to defend as an independent country. They are probably better served deciding to stay in Ukraine or join Russia.

Bigger is better? Why does Crimea have to part of some larger nation?

Small, friendly nations have always existed, very successfully at that. Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, all much smaller than an independent Crimea would be.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSqoEhWd9cM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B10DiNXmFQM

[eduardo89]

Bigger is better? Why does Crimea have to part of some larger nation?

Because Crimeans want to be part of Russia, perhaps?

[Brian4Liberty]

The state of Ukraine is fairly new. Although, ethnic Ukrainians have had nationalistic movements for centuries. For Crimea, however, it has been an independent nation or autonomous state (mostly) ruled by various peoples for the last 1000 years.

Amazing! You mean to tell us that Crimea didn't pop into existence in 1921 (or 1954)? ;)

[Smart3]

As a supporter of the Crimean Tatars, I could never support annexation by Russia.

I'm hesitant about an independent Crimea, but it was inevitable.

Hopefully the new Crimean Republic respects both Russian and Crimean Tatar like the Soviet one did.

[eduardo89]

As a supporter of the Crimean Tatars, I could never support annexation by Russia.

Over 60% of the Crimean population is Russian. They want to be annexed. The Tatar population makes up only 12% of Crimea.


I'm hesitant about an independent Crimea, but it was inevitable.

Crimea will not be independent. It will be reunited with Russia if it does not remain a part of the Ukrainian state currently occupying Malorossiya.



Hopefully the new Crimean Republic respects both Russian and Crimean Tatar like the Soviet one did.

Have you ever even opened a history book??


Sürgünlik (Crimean Tatar for "exile") refers to the state-organized forcible deportation of the Crimean Tatars in 1944 to the Uzbek SSR and other parts of the Soviet Union. A symbol of Sürgünlik is a steam engine.

The projects of expelling the Crimean Tatars from the Crimea emerged several times in Russian ruling circles long before the Crimea was annexed by Russia in 1783 though they were never implemented. In 1944, under the false pretext of alleged collaboration between the Crimean Tatars and the Nazis during the Nazi occupation of the Crimea in 1941–1944, the Soviet government evicted the Crimean Tatar people from the Crimea on orders of Joseph Stalin and Lavrentiy Beria.

The deportation began on 18 May 1944 in all Crimean inhabited localities. More than 32,000 NKVD troops participated in this action. The forced deportees were given only 30 minutes to gather personal belongings, after which they were loaded onto cattle trains and moved out of Crimea. 193,865 Crimean Tatars were deported, 151,136 of them to Uzbek SSR, 8,597 to Mari ASSR, 4,286 to Kazakh SSR, the rest 29,846 to the various oblasts of Russian SFSR. At the same moment, most of the Crimean Tatar men who were fighting in the ranks of the Red Army were demobilized and sent into forced labor camps in Siberia and in the Ural mountain region.

The deportation was poorly planned and executed, local authorities in the destination areas were not properly informed about the scale of the matter and did not receive enough resources to accommodate the deportees. The lack of accommodation and food, the failure to adapt to new climatic conditions and the rapid spread of diseases had a heavy demographic impact during the first years of exile.

From May to November 10,105 Crimean Tatars died of starvation in Uzbekistan (7% of deported to Uzbek SSR) . Nearly 30,000 (20%) died in exile during the year and a half by the NKVD data. Due to hunger, thirst and disease, around 45% of the total population died in the process of deportation. According to Soviet dissident information, many Crimean Tatars were made to work in the large-scale projects conducted by the Soviet GULAG system.

The Crimean Tatar activists tried to evaluate the demographic consequences of the deportation. They carried out a census in all the scattered Tatar communities in the middle of the 1960s. The results of this inquiry show that 109,956 (46.2%) Crimean Tatars of the 238,500 deportees died between July 1, 1944 and January 1, 1947.

Crimean activists call for the recognition of the Sürgünlik as genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars

[wetroof]

Crimea needs to put fortresses on it's two entry points and then defend from the sea.

[eduardo89]

Crimea needs to put fortresses on it's two entry points and then defend from the sea.

Reports are that Russia is already digging trenches on the land border with Malorossiya.

[dillo]

isn't Crimea 60% Russian, and when Ukraine tried to impose cultural laws on them they went apeshit. Crimea is already basically its own nation, they should just take the next step.

[Mini-Me]

I think Crimea should be part of Switzerland. Then they wouldn't have to worry about this entire bullshit tug-of-war, because nobody messes with Switzerland. ;) Nobody messes with Antarctica either, so maybe they should ally with the polar bears.

[eduardo89]

I think Crimea should be part of Switzerland. Then they wouldn't have to worry about this entire bullshit tug-of-war, because nobody messes with Switzerland. ;) Nobody messes with Antarctica either, so maybe they should ally with the polar bears.

There are no polar bears in Antarctica.

[Mini-Me]

There are no polar bears in Antarctica.

Say it ain't so! <HEAD ASPLODES!!!>

[compromise]

There are no polar bears in Antarctica.

I wish it was legal to buy land in Antarctica. Would be awesome to set up a huge Santa Claus theme park with polar bears and reindeer.

[Smart3]

I think Crimea should be part of Switzerland. Then they wouldn't have to worry about this entire bullshit tug-of-war, because nobody messes with Switzerland. ;) Nobody messes with Antarctica either, so maybe they should ally with the polar bears.
Actually Switzerland would have been invaded by Hitler had they not rallied so many troops to protect themselves. The Swiss troops would have superior numbers and better weapons than the German-Italian invasion, so Hitler aborted it.

[eduardo89]

Actually Switzerland would have been invaded by Hitler had they not rallied so many troops to protect themselves. The Swiss troops would have superior numbers and better weapons than the German-Italian invasion, so Hitler aborted it.

The real reason Germany did not invade Switzerland is it made no sense to do so. They were not ever a threat, were surrounded by Germany, Germany-occupied allies (Vichy France), and German allies (Italy). An independent and neutral Switzerland was very advantageous as well, it became a back door to to international trade and international banking, a neutral state where negotiations could take place with the allies and international organisations and a safehaven where they could hide their loot from the conquered territories.

Switzerland was irrelevent to the National Socialist plan. Hitler wasn't a looney toon attacking countries just because he could or for the fun of it. He had plans and a goal he wanted to achieve.

Austria, Czechslovakia and Elsaß-Lothringen were about uniting the rest of the German people. Poland and the USSR was about living space for future expansion. Norway was about mineral resources. They only got involved in Greece and North Africa because of the Italians.

[69360]

Bigger is better? Why does Crimea have to part of some larger nation?

Small, friendly nations have always existed, very successfully at that. Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, all much smaller than an independent Crimea would be.


But they aren't the location of strategic Russian bases on the black sea. That's the difference.

An independent nation of Crimea would always be threatened with invasion and that small a population would not be able to raise an army sufficient to defend that threat, numbers wise or financially.

I don't think the US should intervene and I have no personal stake in this, just my opinion.

[pcosmar]

But they aren't the location of strategic Russian bases on the black sea. That's the difference.

An independent nation of Crimea would always be threatened with invasion and that small a population would not be able to raise an army sufficient to defend that threat, numbers wise or financially.

I don't think the US should intervene and I have no personal stake in this, just my opinion.

Protectorate

for those that don't know the meaning of words,,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate

[klamath]

Protectorate

for those that don't know the meaning of words,,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate
The real meaning of protectorate...Bubba in his cell tells you to be his woman and he will protect you from the rapists......

[eduardo89]

Ukraine is prepping troops for a potential war with Russia.

I wouldn't mess with Russia's military.

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/friday-i-dgaf-5.jpg?w=500&h=315

[pcosmar]

The real meaning of protectorate...Bubba in his cell tells you to be his woman and he will protect you from the rapists......

That could be also..

Or a gun fighter that you hang a badge on,, hoping he won't use his gun on you.

However,, I was referring to the definition recognized under International Law.

[pcosmar]

The real meaning of protectorate...Bubba in his cell tells you to be his woman and he will protect you from the rapists......

That could be also..

Or a gun fighter that you hang a badge on,, hoping he won't use his gun on you.

However,, I was referring to the definition recognized under International Law.

[gwax23]

My Personal view is they would be best as Part of Russia (which apparently they want) second best Independence. This is a personal view not something I think the US should try to push forward in any way.

[gwax23]

The real reason Germany did not invade Switzerland is it made no sense to do so. They were not ever a threat, were surrounded by Germany, Germany-occupied allies (Vichy France), and German allies (Italy). An independent and neutral Switzerland was very advantageous as well, it became a back door to to international trade and international banking, a neutral state where negotiations could take place with the allies and international organisations and a safehaven where they could hide their loot from the conquered territories.

Switzerland was irrelevent to the National Socialist plan. Hitler wasn't a looney toon attacking countries just because he could or for the fun of it. He had plans and a goal he wanted to achieve.

Austria, Czechslovakia and Elsaß-Lothringen were about uniting the rest of the German people. Poland and the USSR was about living space for future expansion. Norway was about mineral resources. They only got involved in Greece and North Africa because of the Italians.

Hitler and Mussolini developed plans to divide Switzerland between them after the war was over.

[eduardo89]

Hitler and Mussolini developed plans to divide Switzerland between them after the war was over.

That probably would have happened. But there was nothing to gain, and a lot to lose, from invading Switzerland during the war.

[gwax23]

That probably would have happened. But there was nothing to gain, and a lot to lose, from invading Switzerland during the war.

Could be said about nearly all the countries he invaded. Greece, Yugoslavia, The Netherlands etc etc.

[eduardo89]

Could be said about nearly all the countries he invaded. Greece, Yugoslavia, The Netherlands etc etc.

The Germans only became involved in Greece and Yugoslavia because they chose the worst possible allies possible (Italy). The Netherlands was always planned to be annexed by Germany.

[Libertea Party]

Over 60% of the Crimean population is Russian. They want to be annexed. The Tatar population makes up only 12% of Crimea.



Crimea will not be independent. It will be reunited with Russia if it does not remain a part of the Ukrainian state currently occupying Malorossiya.



Have you ever even opened a history book??

I agree that the Crimean population should determine their own fate. Also over 95% of the population of Chechnya is Chechen. They want to be independent. That doesn't stop Russia from hypocritically disagreeing and imposing their imperialism with atrocities:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isC-uFSM6ck

[TER]

The Germans only became involved in Greece and Yugoslavia because they chose the worst possible allies possible (Italy). The Netherlands was always planned to be annexed by Germany.

They chose Italy because the Mussolini regime was one of the few who would alley with them, if I am not mistaken.

[eduardo89]

They chose Italy because the Mussolini regime was one of the few who would alley with them, if I am not mistaken.

Hitler didn't like Mussolini and Mussolini didn't like Hitler. It was sort of a marriage of convenience at the time, which turned out to be one of the costliest mistakes for Hitler (along with allying with Japan and not invading Britain). The Italian army were horribly ill-equiped and poorly trained. They forced Germany to lose hundreds of thousands of soldiers and materiel in North Africa, the Balkans, and Greece.

[TER]

Hitler didn't like Mussolini and Mussolini didn't like Hitler. It was sort of a marriage of convenience at the time, which turned out to be one of the costliest mistakes for Hitler (along with allying with Japan and not invading Britain). The Italian army were horribly ill-equiped and poorly trained. They forced Germany to lose hundreds of thousands of soldiers and materiel in North Africa, the Balkans, and Greece.

Interesting. Seems like a marriage that benefitted everyone else but themselves!

[eduardo89]

Interesting. Seems like a marriage that benefitted everyone else but themselves!

Pretty much. Germany had no reason to go into North Africa or anywhere near Greece, but they felt obligated to bail out their allies. Horrible mistake.

[klamath]

I agree that the Crimean population should determine their own fate. Also over 95% of the population of Chechnya is Chechen. They want to be independent. That doesn't stop Russia from hypocritically disagreeing and imposing their imperialism with atrocities:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isC-uFSM6ckA fact many Russian apologists ignore. I am not anti Russian as I have Russians in my family and contact with the Russian part of the family. Never met more decent people. It is with the world individual people I stand and shutter when I see them caught in the war machines of the world.

[AngryCanadian]

Also over 95% of the population of Chechnya is Chechen and the majority of these beloved Chechens that you support are in Syria fighting along side the FSA.

[AngryCanadian]

A fact many Russian apologists ignore. I am not anti Russian as I have Russians in my family and contact with the Russian part of the family. Never met more decent people. It is with the world individual people I stand and shutter when I see them caught in the war machines of the world.




Also over 95% of the population of Chechnya is Chechen and the majority of these beloved Chechens that you support are in Syria fighting along side the FSA. Lets ignore that fact as well.


I am not anti Russian as I have Russians in my family and contact with the Russian part of the family.
I am sure you arent anti Russian just like How McCain claims he just supports the Russian people Right?

[DFF]

Actually Switzerland would have been invaded by Hitler had they not rallied so many troops to protect themselves. The Swiss troops would have superior numbers and better weapons than the German-Italian invasion, so Hitler aborted it.

Whether this is accurate or not I don't know. But I do know that the Nazis had many sympathizers within Switzerland. The Swiss in the north used to ring the bells frequently as a show of support during the war.

[klamath]

Also over 95% of the population of Chechnya is Chechen and the majority of these beloved Chechens that you support are in Syria fighting along side the FSA. Lets ignore that fact as well.


I am sure you arent anti Russian just like How McCain claims he just supports the Russian people Right?:rolleyes::rolleyes: You aren't worth the time. you have no logical arguments. Like a child that learned a new word....Neocon

[RickyJ]

It's amazing how this false narrative has been created that says that Ukraine must be aligned with the EU or with Russia and there are no other options. How about a free and independent Crimea that is friendly with both the Ukraine and Russia?

They could align with China, but that would be weird. What any of this has to do with the USA is the question. Why don't our politicians stop threatening other nations and start making laws that help bring manufacturing back to the USA? We can't control the world, we can't even control our own nation, so it is about time to stop trying to be the police man of the world, no one appreciates it except the military industrial complex.

[Mini-Me]

They could align with China, but that would be weird. What any of this has to do with the USA is the question. Why don't our politicians stop threatening other nations and start making laws that help bring manufacturing back to the USA? We can't control the world, we can't even control our own nation, so it is about time to stop trying to be the police man of the world, no one appreciates it except the military industrial complex.

Why? From a neocon perspective, they're desperately trying to enforce the petrodollar by military intimidation (as they have since the 1970's) so it doesn't crumble and drive the US economy into a nearly pre-industrial state once we can't buy cheap imports with printed money (including oil...although THANKFULLY we are finally producing enough of our own energy that we'll be able to maintain our food transport network and survive the collapse without famines, barring a nuclear holocaust in World War III). It's an ultimately counterproductive way of doing things, but it's the only way they know, and their imperial hubris and thirst for worldwide domination knows no bounds.

From a globalist perspective, the puppetmasters behind US leadership ultimately don't really care what happens to the US anyway: It's just a means to an end for them...a cudgel. If the US is utterly destroyed in an attempt to establish a worldwide currency and government, their best friends will get plenty of golden parachutes to help them try through the EU and UN instead. Heck, the humbling and demise of the world's first serious experiment in limited government will just be icing on the cake for them.

[ThePenguinLibertarian]

It's amazing how this false narrative has been created that says that Ukraine must be aligned with the EU or with Russia and there are no other options. How about a free and independent Crimea that is friendly with both the Ukraine and Russia?

Can't Happen. The Remainder of Ukraine will be Pro EU, and Russia does not like the EU. Crimea will align itself with Russia.

[KingNothing]

Could be said about nearly all the countries he invaded. Greece, Yugoslavia, The Netherlands etc etc.

It's almost like the guy who wanted to systematically exterminate giant swaths of the population and take over the world wasn't always all there mentally.

[KingNothing]

Insofar as we can do it on the cheap, it behooves us to prevent any other state from increasing in power. Given that truth, I'd say it is best for America if nothing changes in the region and Crimea remains part of Ukraine, and Russia doesn't gobble it up, which is exactly what would happen if it became independent.

With that said, I'm not sure what Russia really gains by owning Crimea outright, rather than just implicitly, as they already did.

[Mini-Me]

Insofar as we can do it on the cheap, it behooves us to prevent any other state from increasing in power. Given that truth, I'd say it is best for America if nothing changes in the region and Crimea remains part of Ukraine, and Russia doesn't gobble it up, which is exactly what would happen if it became independent.

With that said, I'm not sure what Russia really gains by owning Crimea outright, rather than just implicitly, as they already did.

You're confused about what Russia has to gain because you're looking at this backwards, as if Russia was the initiating party for this whole mess. The status quo was working just fine for them, just as you suspect. Their plans are to economically compete with the US by replacing the petrodollar in partnership with China et al, and having de facto loyalty from Crimea and a non-hostile Ukrainian government was enough to keep the oil flowing and keep these plans viable.

What changed? The US, etc. decided to make a play in Ukraine, foment revolution as usual, and install a new regime that would align the whole country with the EU. This new regime is basically run and enforced by Svoboda Party neo-Nazis who quote Goebbels and Goering, but they've installed a more palatable figurehead from the less-obviously-nazi-yet-more-blatantly-named Fatherland Party...go figure. Above you seemed to consider this intervention as evidence that the CIA and Obama are "less lost" than you thought (implying approval?)...except it should be apparent from our historical interventions and from what's going on right now that it's actually evidence the CIA is a completely reckless destabilizing force in the world that brings a lot of bad karma upon the US. Instead of competing economically and ending all of the money-printing necessary to sustain an empire, we instead try to protect the petrodollar with regime changes and the same costly military intimidation that endangered its reserve currency status in the first place...and even when it means backing "Al Qaeda" in Syria (because that worked out well the first time with Operation Cyclone, right? ;)), fascists in Egypt (because it worked in South America with Pinochet et al, right?), and overt neo-Nazis in Ukraine (what could go wrong, right?). Oh, and we're trying to install a puppet government in Venezuela at the moment too, but with all the other regime changes going on, it's hard to keep up with it all. This is what the CIA does: Pursue short-term interests at all costs.

I want to reiterate that I don't agree with Russia's intervention either, but if you look at this from the implicit assumption that they started this, you're bound to be totally confused about "Why?" Of course, now that the US government has instigated trouble again, expect Russia to exploit the situation to get whatever it can out of it, since they're already committed to intervening in this debacle. Barring World War III, Russia will probably come out of this looking better and stronger than they did previously...but hey, NOBODY could have predicted that US meddling would backfire, right? It's not like it's an inevitable result or anything just because it happens every time. Next time we just have to try it more on the DL and more on the cheap, and it will all work out for the best for once. ;)

[Brian4Liberty]

Can't Happen. The Remainder of Ukraine will be Pro EU, and Russia does not like the EU. Crimea will align itself with Russia.

They could be relatively friendly if they want to. It is starting to look like there will be a more autonomous Crimea, more aligned with Russia. Ukraine looks like they want to become slaves of the Central Bankers. Under those conditions, it would be better to be a Crimean than a Ukrainian.

[HOLLYWOOD]

If you heard how Russia has invaded this pass week on the news/infotainment circuits about conflicts(Crimea, Ukraine, Georgia, Sochi)... of course the 'Talking Heads' on corporate airwaves, plus the think tanks, DC policy centers, foundations, have been digging up the Russian invasion in Georgia in 2008. All of US propaganda media and the US based policy organizations are rewriting history(Once Again) about the Georgian conflict with Russia and let's not leave out, that CIA/MOSSAD presidential puppet Mikheil Saakashvili (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikheil_Saakashvili) along with the rest of TEAM CIA; Lado Gurgenidze. Don't forget criminal MOSSAD agent, as well as ex-defense minister and former head of the Georgian financial police, Davit Kezerashvili. (http://www.eurasianet.org/node/67628) How this mastermind was the other end of the orchestrated covert arms trade from Israel to Georgia(remember Israel getting involved in the Georgian ops?), along with a slew of other illegal operations. You can read about it and more in the book about merchants of death and Kezerashvili in: The Shadow World: Inside the Global Arms Trade (http://books.google.com/books?id=OpV0VkwQCsIC&pg=PA384&lpg=PA384&dq=Davit+Kezerashvili+MOSSAD&source=bl&ots=iw3Cz8h6Yz&sig=VkA6zUCF7ZqOc1h_NUSnQGbz5eo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uNYUU4uZHc3ioAT4joDADg&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Davit%20Kezerashvili%20MOSSAD&f=false)


Russia is the protectorate of South Ossetia and Abkhazian, these 2 states have always wanted their independence from Georgia. Though you can't take everything for granted, once again, one must always reflect back to what former CIA Bin Laden station chief, Michael Scheuer warned, Wherever there is conflict in the world, count on the CIA being in the middle of it. This whole Kiev-Ukraine CIA/et al operations has been going on for quite some time, and I hope it all comes to the surface and those involved exposed.Don't believe any of the junk a majority of the planet is being fed by the government clown cart and media's bread & circuses broadcasting. I'll stick to my observant cynicism out there too, Wherever John McCain travels and meets around the world, look the fuck out, because destruction and death are on their way!

PS: Maybe John McCain should be nicknamed: 'Senator Grimm Reaper' because death and destruction poisons the path he travels.

Nothing on Planet Earth can be free anymore because of the banking cartel and government's thirst by RICO conquests that invade freedom and liberty everywhere.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/2008_South_Ossetia_war_en.svg/800px-2008_South_Ossetia_war_en.svg.png

[jllundqu]

How is what's happening in Crimea impacting anything here in the US? Answer: It isn't.

Internal struggles of nations on the other side of the globe are not our concern. The people of Crimea should decide their fate.

Wasn't the president of Ukraine elected and then illegally ousted? Would not our support for the interim government be the same thing that happened in Egypt? It is US Law that we cannot support any force that supplants an elected government, even ones we don't like.

I find it stranger and stranger that I find logic and reason in what PUTIN is doing versus our own government. Strange days.

[Brian4Liberty]

It's amazing how this false narrative has been created that says that Ukraine must be aligned with the EU or with Russia and there are no other options. How about a free and independent Crimea that is friendly with both the Ukraine and Russia?

Post referendum update: As I suspected, the option of total independence was not on the table. Everyone wanted this to be a tug of war with only two options. Stay with Ukraine and join the EU, or join Russia. No other options were allowed by the powers that be on both sides. Would the people of Crimea like a totally independent Crimea? We'll never know.

Here's a good thread on the referendum itself:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?447029-Doesn%92t-Crimea%92s-Ballot-Question-2-incorporate-within-it-the-%93Status-Quo%94-to-stay-the-same

[Uriah]

How is what's happening in Crimea impacting anything here in the US? Answer: It isn't.

Internal struggles of nations on the other side of the globe are not our concern. The people of Crimea should decide their fate.

Wasn't the president of Ukraine elected and then illegally ousted? Would not our support for the interim government be the same thing that happened in Egypt? It is US Law that we cannot support any force that supplants an elected government, even ones we don't like.

I find it stranger and stranger that I find logic and reason in what PUTIN is doing versus our own government. Strange days.

Reminds me of Honduras.