Father charged for speaking about his daughter’s kidnapping

[Brett85]

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/lou-pelletier-contempt/

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not, but it's absolutely outrageous that this is happening.


A father is being charged by the state of Massachusetts for speaking about the kidnapping of his daughter and the oppression his family has endured for the last year. After reaching emotional, physical, and financial exhaustion, Lou Pelletier decided that the only way to save his daughter was to speak out and make his daughter’s story as public as possible. Breaking a judge’s so-called “gag order” may cause him to be punished for exercising his right to free speech.

The heartbreaking story began in February 2013 when Lou and Linda Pelletier took their daughter to Boston Children’s Hospital for treatment for influenza. Doctors there attempted to radically change a diagnosis of one of then-14-year-old Justina Pelletier’s existing medical conditions.

In summary, a mitochondrial disorder previously established by her regular physician was reversed and turned into a psychiatric disorder. The doctors of Boston Children’s Hospital wanted to cease treating her for her old diagnosis and start her up on psychotropic drugs. Her family objected and wanted to discharge her from the hospital. That’s when security guards instead removed Lou and Linda from their daughter’s side, and within days they were stripped of custody of Justina.

The Pelletier family suffered for months with limited contact with Justina and frustrating legal battles. To make matters worse, they were threatened by a judge with a “gag order” to not disclose details of the case.

Justina particularly suffered as she remained trapped an alone; detained indefinitely with no indication of being released. Her conditioned worsened as she was no longer being treated for her mitochondrial disorder and was instead being heavily medicated and subjected to “behavioral modification” techniques, which were so disturbing to her father that he called them “torture.” If Justina was caught writing secret notes to her parents — outside of the prisonesque 20-minute phone call and 1-hour visitation she was afforded per week — she was punished. Mr. Pelletier said the way his family has been treated rivals something out of North Korea.

After facing continual disappointment with the justice system, high legal bills, his daughter’s desperate condition, and virtually no notice from the national media, Lou Pelletier decided to break his silence.

“If we don’t do something, she is going to die,” said Mr. Pelletier in an interview with The Blaze, calling the taking of his daughter as “kidnapping.”

The father explained how his daughter was a skilled ice skater just before being seized, and after months of “treatment” has been reduced to a frail, dying child with a receding hairline, bound to a wheelchair, with “no strength below the hips, [and] minimal strength above the hips.” He said she has been “tortured, physically and mentally, for over a year” and nothing has been done to stop it.

“The head games that have been played on Justina are worse than any Stephen King novel,” Pelletier told Glenn Beck.

He explained that his daughters mitochondrial disease produces colon issues, and requires periodic flushing of the intestines via a colostomy tube. But in the involuntary custody of the state, doctors tell her that these issues are “all in her head,” refusing to continue with any of the old treatments and forcing her to sit on the toilet for hours at a time and will not perform the flushing procedure.

Lou Pelletier’s calculated risk of going public has had the benefit of reaching the audience of Glenn Beck, and has been met with the financial assistance of concerned viewers of the interview. However, the vengeful, family-destroying Massachusetts Department of Children & Families (DCF) filed charges against Mr. Pelletier for doing the interview and breaking his government-imposed silence.

Whether Judge Joseph Johnston follows through with his threats to punish the Pelletier family for speaking about their own situation remains to be seen. The charges against Lou Pelletier will be weighed in court, and if sustained, he could face additional fines or even jail time.

Such threats must not seem significant to a father doing the only peaceful thing left to save his daughter.

[green73]

One thing I find that helps in finding if something has already been posted is using a name from the story (e.g. Justina Pelletier)

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444525-Father-charged-for-speaking-about-his-daughter%92s-kidnapping

[Christian Liberty]

He needs to shut up and [deleted]

[LibertyEagle]

It doesn't really give much information about the gag order. When was this done, who did it, and what was their stated rationale for doing it?

[Christian Liberty]

It doesn't really give much information about the gag order. When was this done, who did it, and what was their stated rationale for doing it?

They don't want the whole town shooting up a hospital full of kidnappers...

[eduardo89]

He needs to shut up and [deleted]

Now you've gone beyond praising murderers and are now advocating murder? Seriously, FF?

[Cleaner44]

Motion For Contempt Filed Against Father Of West Hartford Teen Justina Pelletier

Read more: http://foxct.com/2014/02/19/motion-for-contempt-filed-against-father-of-west-hartford-teen-justina-pelletier/#ixzz2ttv936up


Contempt Charges Filed Against Dad Who Defied Gag Order to Tell Daughter’s Heartbreaking Story (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/19/child-services-files-contempt-charges-against-father-who-broke-gag-order-to-tell-story-of-daughter-kept-in-hospital-against-parents-will-source/)

Parents fight for custody of Justina Pelletier after Mass. hospital locks her in psych ward

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/parents-accuse-mass-hospital-locking-daughter-psych-ward-article-1.1609998#ixzz2ttvPIpZs

[Christian Liberty]

Now you've gone beyond praising murderers and are now advocating murder? Seriously, FF?

If somebody kidnapped your daughter, would you not kill them? If not, you're pathetic.

I remember talking to my dad about this one when Beck brought it up... my dad's nowhere near an anarchist and even he agreed with me on this one.

You really just like using the word "murder", to attack me, don't you?

[Origanalist]

One thing I find that helps in finding if something has already been posted is using a name from the story (e.g. Justina Pelletier)

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444525-Father-charged-for-speaking-about-his-daughter%92s-kidnapping

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444457-Beck-Begs-Listeners-to-Help-Family-of-Girl-at-the-Center-of-Boston-Children%92s-Controversy&highlight=Pelletier

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?444421-Parents-Defy-Judge%92s-Gag-Order-Speak-Out-About-Daughter-Held-Custody-For-Year&highlight=Pelletier

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?434014-Hospital-Holds-Teen-For-9-Months-Won%92t-Let-Parents-Take-Her-Home&highlight=Pelletier

[eduardo89]

If somebody kidnapped your daughter, would you not kill them? If not, you're pathetic.

I remember talking to my dad about this one when Beck brought it up... my dad's nowhere near an anarchist and even he agreed with me on this one.

You really just like using the word "murder", to attack me, don't you?

What other word can one use for shooting up a hospital? Terrorism, I guess.

[Christian Liberty]

What other word can one use for shooting up a hospital? Terrorism, I guess.

I don't care that its a hospital. I would care that they kidnapped my daughter. Seriously, I don't even have a kid, I can't believe you do and you still don't get this.

[eduardo89]

I don't care that its a hospital. I would care that they kidnapped my daughter. Seriously, I don't even have a kid, I can't believe you do and you still don't get this.

Ok, so he shoots up the hospital, kills some people. Then what? His daughter gets taken away again, and he spends the rest of his life in prison, probably even receives a death sentence.

Yeah, that's a great solution... :rolleyes:

[Christian Liberty]

Ok, so he shoots up the hospital, kills some people. Then what? His daughter gets taken away again, and he spends the rest of his life in prison, probably even receives a death sentence.

Yeah, that's a great solution... :rolleyes:

OK, so what is your take on this? Are you denying that these are kidnappers? Are you denying that killing someone who is holding your child hostage is a disproportionate response? Or is this simply pragmatic?

If your objection is pragmatic, I would propose that if state-sanctioned kidnappers knew they were likely to get killed for it, they would be righteously afraid to do so. Yes, it would take more than just him, but it would be a start.

On the other hand, if your objection is principled (Since you used the word "murder" I doubt it was solely pragmatic) I'd like to know why.

[Anti Federalist]

He needs to shut up and [deleted]

Told you klamath was talking about you, too.

[Christian Liberty]

To be clear, I'm not advocating killing "some people." I'm saying kill whoever it is specifically necessary to kill in order to recover your child.

[Anti Federalist]

OK, so what is your take on this? Are you denying that these are kidnappers? Are you denying that killing someone who is holding your child hostage is a disproportionate response? Or is this simply pragmatic?

If your objection is pragmatic, I would propose that if state-sanctioned kidnappers knew they were likely to get killed for it, they would be righteously afraid to do so. Yes, it would take more than just him, but it would be a start.

On the other hand, if your objection is principled (Since you used the word "murder" I doubt it was solely pragmatic) I'd like to know why.

SWLDs...that's what is needed here...SWLDs.

[Christian Liberty]

Told you klamath was talking about you, too.

I figured.

I won't straight up say that very often. I'm not necessarily "for" getting revenge on corrupt police, although sometimes I wish it would happen, and I think good things would come if more people did it. But in this case, we're not even talking about revenge. The daughter is literally a hostage, being kidnapped by the hospital. If this wasn't government sanctioned nobody except a straight pacifist would question that it is an appropriate situation to use force.

In this case, I think its clear that giving the kidnappers what they deserve and rescuing your child, darn the consequences, is the right course of action.

[Christian Liberty]

SWLDs...that's what is needed here...SWLDs.

I don't know what the abbreviation means.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't know what the abbreviation means.

I'll let it float out there a while and see if anybody gets it.

If enhanced_deficit can throw out a couple dozen confusing acronyms, I can throw out one. ;)

[angelatc]

To be clear, I'm not advocating killing "some people." I'm saying kill whoever it is specifically necessary to kill in order to recover your child.

But then what? Where do you go after that?

[Anti Federalist]

In this case, I think its clear that giving the kidnappers what they deserve and rescuing your child, darn the consequences, is the right course of action.

Except for this fact: that would never happen.

The state would unleash it's standing army against you and stop at nothing, nothing, to terminate you.

They would exterminate you, your daughter, your wife, the rest of your kids, and maybe your parents for good measure.

If force is going to be used, it will need to be applied much more judiciously and in much more creative ways than just lashing out at the local tyrants on their turf, on their terms.

That's a way to become nothing more than a pile of smoking entrails and ash.

[Christian Liberty]

I'll let it float out there a while and see if anybody gets it.

If enhanced_deficit can throw out a couple dozen confusing acronyms, I can throw out one. ;)

I'm curious now;)

But then what? Where do you go after that?


Except for this fact: that would never happen.

The state would unleash it's standing army against you and stop at nothing, nothing, to terminate you.

They would exterminate you, your daughter, your wife, the rest your kids, and maybe your parents for good measure.

These are both pragmatic considerations. Should that really matter? If it wasn't the State, and instead some other massive gang, would you say "Well, gosh they've got me outgunned so I'm just going to let them keep my daughter?" Or would you lay down your own life to take down as many of them as you can.

As for the fact that they might exterminate your family, make them show their hand...

[dannno]

As for the fact that they might exterminate your family, make them show their hand...

They show their hand all the time, the media then hides it again.

[Christian Liberty]

Wow... I didn't know a group of people could be so pessimistic as to make me look optimistic by comparison. Look, you're probably right, but if so, who the freak cares? What's a better course of action, begging the kidnappers to let her go? Seriously?

If they want money, that's one thing. As a pragmatic matter, I'm opposed to tax resistance. Not because I think its morally wrong, but because it just isn't worth getting killed or physically harmed over money.

Your CHILD is another story. If you aren't willing to kill or die for them, you're a coward. Eduardo calling it "murder" is simply cover for his own cowardice. He's not a pacifist, he doesn't have a principled objection, he just knows if this happened he'd be too chicken to actually pull the trigger. Who knows, maybe I would too. But freaking ADMIT to it, rather than playing moralistic games and pretending like killing a government kidnapper would be murder when you know full and well if it were a non-governmental kidnapper you would consider it to be heroic.

[Anti Federalist]

These are both pragmatic considerations. Should that really matter?

Well, sure they should, unless you just want to be a martyr.


If it wasn't the State, and instead some other massive gang, would you say "Well, gosh they've got me outgunned so I'm just going to let them keep my daughter?" Or would you lay down your own life to take down as many of them as you can.

Any other gang does not have the power of the state behind it.

At some point you, assuming you survive, can kill enough, spend enough, run enough, that you would make it.

Not on the Prison Planet if the state turns it's eye toward you.


As for the fact that they might exterminate your family, make them show their hand...

They are exterminating one of us on a daily basis.

They are exterminating our pets.

They are raiding us like an occupied, beaten nation, 50,000 times a year.

Nobody gives a fuck, outside of a tiny minority of rabble rousers and shit disturbers...that's us.

[angelatc]

I'm curious now;)




These are both pragmatic considerations. Should that really matter? If it wasn't the State, and instead some other massive gang, would you say "Well, gosh they've got me outgunned so I'm just going to let them keep my daughter?" Or would you lay down your own life to take down as many of them as you can.

As for the fact that they might exterminate your family, make them show their hand...

Of course it matters. What would be the point of winning the battle knowing full well that there's no way for you to win that particular war?

[Christian Liberty]

Well, sure they should, unless you just want to be a martyr.



I'd rather "be a martyr" than spread the message that kidnapping girls is acceptable.

Of course, I'd attempt escaping, long odds and all.


Any other gang does not have the power of the state behind it.

At some point you, assuming you survive, can kill enough, spend enough, run enough, that you would make it.

Not on the Prison Planet if the state turns it's eye toward you.

Then I'd be a martyr. But I'd help other people by showing the State's THUGS that some of them might get killed if they try to kidnap a teenage girl.



They are exterminating one of us on a daily basis.

They are exterminating our pets.

They are raiding us like an occupied, beaten nation, 50,000 times a year.

Nobody gives a fuck, outside of a tiny minority of rabble rousers and shit disturbers...that's us.

Its time to make them care, in the OP's case. How many people would really be OK with what the govt. is doing here if they knew about it?

[Anti Federalist]

Its time to make them care, in the OP's case. How many people would really be OK with what the govt. is doing here if they knew about it?

Most, I'm sure...you'll be shocked, as you go through life, and this mess unravels, how much tyranny people will accept, hell, will demand.

Not to cast stones, but your generation is one of the worst in this regard...nothing seems to agitate them.

I appreciate and understand your passion on this, I really do.

If it was me, yes, I'd be very hard pressed not to raise the black flag, spit on my hands and start slitting throats, to paraphrase Mencken.

All I'm saying is, if you're gonna call down the thunder, it has to be done more smartly than waltzing into the den of the enemy.

[Inkblots]

There's something that I always wonder about in this sort of case, and I know some people on this forum know people with firsthand experience of this sort, so perhaps you can enlighten me. I read stories of this type so often that I feel compelled to try to understand how this sort of thing can happen.

C. S. Lewis explained the basic principle that can give rise to this sort of mind-bogglingly evil situation better than anyone I know of:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
So I understand that, as far as it goes, and I know it generally encompasses most of the DCFS and forced medical treatment horror stories I read about.

But in a case like this, I have trouble understanding how the people involved in terrorizing the family believe they're doing the right thing, how they are operating "with the approval of their own conscience". I recognize that very few people see themselves as evil, that most people see themselves as the hero of their own story and that the human mind can justify to itself what to an objective observer are truly unbelievable or disgusting courses of action. I get that, at least in theory.

But let's just take this case as an example. In this case, a medical doctor -- someone who has had years of training in ethics, and who took an explicit oath to do no harm -- disagreed with the diagnosis another physician had attached to a minor patient the doctor found himself treating for an unrelated illness. He offered his own diagnosis and insisted on an alternate course of treatment. The patient's parents were uncomfortable with his decision and tried to withdraw the patient from his care and return her to that of her original physician, who was on staff at Tufts, an institution every bit as respectable within the medical community as Boston Children's. The doctor's reaction to this was to violently separate the patient from her family and imprison her within his hospital's psych ward.

So far, so good. An unquestionably evil act, when evaluated by an objective third party, but I can understand how a man could persuade himself he was doing the right thing here. But let's jump forward a year: the patient, who under the original course of treatment was able to function as a normal, healthy teenage girl in society, under the new course of care has deteriorated badly, to the point of no longer being able to walk unassisted. She has not been to school and has fallen woefully behind in her education. She is depressed and desperately trying to communicate with the loved ones from whom you have separated her. In other words, she has, on every measure of health -- physical, emotional and mental -- declined precipitously under your care and that of the state actors you used to seize her. How can you not admit you were wrong? How can any human continue to operate with the approval of their conscience when there is clear, unmistakable and factual evidence you were wrong staring you in the face? I have trouble understanding that.

But here's the real kicker. Maybe this doctor is just a psychopath who values his own self-regard more than a young girl's life. It seems a bit much, but I admit that such people definitely exist. And if this case was the result of the actions of a lone quack keeping her imprisoned in his backwoods cabin, I could accept that. But this was happening in a major urban hospital, surrounded by other physicians and nursing staff. This was overseen and approved of by outside civil servants not even affiliated with his hospital. This was even evaluated by the independent judiciary. And as the months dragged on - 3, 9, 12, more than a year now - not only did none of them take a look at the above fact and say "there's something evil happening here, perhaps I should stop," but when the father tried to tell this story, to make the outrageous facts of this Kafkaesque situation known to the public, to seek outside help, a judge -- another educated professional with years of training in ethics -- reacted, not by decrying the absurdities and evils of the case, but by threatening the father with prison if he told anyone the story.

... they can't all be psychopaths or dumb enough to believe they're doing the right thing, I won't buy that. Someone explain this to me. I am serious. I need to understand how this works. Please.

[Anti Federalist]

... they can't all be psychopaths or dumb enough to believe they're doing the right thing, I won't buy that. Someone explain this to me. I am serious. I need to understand how this works. Please.

Form fillers.

Data entry clerks.

"Just following orders".

"It's my job".

No more complicated to understand than that.

And if "authority", be it a boss, an "expert", a cop...if any of these people tell somebody to do such and such, they will, however horrible.

Read these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

[Anti Federalist]

Update on the Vultures of the State and DCF

Scott Lazarowitz

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/update-on-the-vultures-of-the-state-and-dcf/#more-482695

Justina Pelletier is the 15-year-old girl who was diagnosed with and treated for Mitochondrial Disease, but at some point when her Tufts Medical Center doctor had her see his colleague at Boston Children’s Hospital her case was instead taken over by a different doctor there, a psychiatrist. It all went downhill from there. She was told that her physical illness was really a mental illness and that it was “all in her head,” her parents were accused of “medical child abuse,” the psychiatrists wanted to practice “behavior modification” on the child, and custody of Justina was taken away from the Pelletiers and handed over to the Massachusetts Department of Children and Families.

Instead of continuing her medical treatment, the “doctors” and DCF placed her into a mental health facility for teens with behavioral problems and teens from “broken homes,” etc. In other words, the practitioners of Boston Children’s Hospital, which states that children who are “wards of the state” may be used for research without parents’ approval, seized a child and not only disrupted her needed continual medical treatment but unnecessarily and in fact negligently put her into mental health programs where she did not belong.

The Pelletiers had been allowed only one hour per week to visit with Justina, like she’s in prison now.

When the father, Lou Pelletier spoke about the maltreatment publicly he was then given a gag order by a DCF judge, and after violating the gag order he was charged with contempt of court. Later the contempt charge was dropped, and the gag order was dropped. Then earlier this month the judge approved an agreement to transfer Justina back to Tufts to resume her medical treatment. However, the Pelletiers are now suing and charging DCF with contempt of court because of DCF’s interference in that planned resumption of Justina’s medical treatment.

But yesterday, it got worse again, with the judge now ruling to give DCF “permanent” custody of Justina. The judge wrote that because Mr. Pelletier called hospital workers “Nazis” and had used profanity in his communicating with hospital and DCF officials, that that was reason enough to permanently seize a child away from her own family. The judge also wrote that Mr. Pelletier threatened a state social worker.

Can you imagine that? A parent actually gets upset that government bureaucrats and doctor bureaucrats are stealing his child away form him, causing her illness to get steadily worse, and he actually called them “Nazis”!

Meanwhile, this is the DCF that has caused hundreds of children now to be “missing” or dead, is totally out of control, and whose guidelines allow convicted armed robbers and child molesters to become foster parents. Now, if your child were in Justina’s situation, and you could see how “doctors” were causing your child’s condition to drastically deteriorate and you knew about the abuses committed on a daily basis by the DCF, wouldn’t you call them “Nazis” or worse, and get a little angry?

By the way, the head of the DCF, Olga Roche responded to many calls for her resignation by begrudgingly handing her resignation in to Gov. Deval Patrick, who refused her resignation. That is because Patrick apparently sees nothing wrong with what is going on.

Gov. Patrick, who is considering running for President in 2016 because he has so much to offer America, also has not commented on the Justina Pelletier case, and that is because he probably sides with the Boston Children’s Hospital doctors who seized Justina’s medical case away from the Tufts doctors and with the DCF that has taken custody away from the Pelletiers. Really, the DCF has kidnapped the child.

But regarding the DCF judge’s decision on keeping custody of Justina in the hands of the State, is that any surprise? As Hans-Hermann Hoppe referred to in his article on private vs. State judicial decision-making, when you are forced to have to go to the State for its “final” judgment in a conflict between you and the State, what the hell do you think the State’s own judge will decide?

[jkr]

get
a
rope

[klamath]

Told you klamath was talking about you, too. At least FF is going after someone specifically harming a family member and can understand his emotion though not his logic. You however have stated you would kill innocent people to get your way, not just those directly harming you or yours.

[Anti Federalist]

At least FF is going after someone specifically harming a family member and can understand his emotion though not his logic. You however have stated you would kill innocent people to get your way, not just those directly harming you or yours.

Don't you have a "You're all a bunch of Putin cocksuckers" Russian thread to go pester people in?

Yeah, I get it, you're anti war, anti forceful resistance, in all circumstances, for any reason, at any time.

Hooray for your consistency and moral superiority.

[green73]

Don't you have a "You're all a bunch of Putin cocksuckers" Russian thread to go pester people in?


This message is hidden because klamath is on your ignore list.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/4543026/green-mile-piss-o.gif ..

[klamath]

You brought my name into it. Deal with it.
Don't you have a "You're all a bunch of Putin cocksuckers" Russian thread to go pester people in?

Yeah, I get it, you're anti war, anti forceful resistance, in all circumstances, for any reason, at any time.

Hooray for your consistency and moral superiority.

[Dr.3D]

In other words, the practitioners of Boston Children’s Hospital, which states that children who are “wards of the state” may be used for research without parents’ approval, seized a child and not only disrupted her needed continual medical treatment but unnecessarily and in fact negligently put her into mental health programs where she did not belong.


So the hospital decided they needed a guinna pig and so they discovered a way to get one?

[Anti Federalist]

You brought my name into it. Deal with it.

Thought I was on your ignore list...

[Anti Federalist]

So the hospital decided they needed a guinna pig and so they discovered a way to get one?

Looks that way.

[Christian Liberty]

Most, I'm sure...you'll be shocked, as you go through life, and this mess unravels, how much tyranny people will accept, hell, will demand.

Not to cast stones, but your generation is one of the worst in this regard...nothing seems to agitate them.

I appreciate and understand your passion on this, I really do.

If it was me, yes, I'd be very hard pressed not to raise the black flag, spit on my hands and start slitting throats, to paraphrase Mencken.

All I'm saying is, if you're gonna call down the thunder, it has to be done more smartly than waltzing into the den of the enemy.

I don't know that my generation is exceptional in this regard. I know its a generalization that old people keep the warmongering, social security supporting GOP going, but its still generally true. That said, I don't deny that my generation generally sucks, I just don't know that its just them.

For what its worth, my dad isn't even a libertarian and he agreed that the father would have the moral right to do what I suggested, despite the fact that he's more pragmatic than I am. Personally, I'm thinking ahead. Anyone who's willing to kidnap a child in this way has absolutely no understanding of ethics, and because they work for the State they are deluded into thinking that they have the right to do what they are doing. The only thing they understand is fear. If you don't make them fear, they'll just keep doing it. If this father stands up for himself and makes the kidnappers pay for what they've done, he may get shot or imprisoned (Almost certainly one or the other) but it will make a point that kidnapping kids isn't silent.

I'm not taking this lightly. I have no doubt that for the father to do this would be to give the kidnappers a one-way ticket straight to Hell. I don't take that lightly. I'm not with the hardcore sovereign types that would kill police over eminent domains or the like. I'd vote "not guilty" in court, but I wouldn't do it, both because I value human lives (even those who have sold their souls to the State) for pragmatic reasons, and because again, I'd rather these people stay alive and hopefully get saved. But I draw the line at kidnapping a child. If you let them do that, you have in practice deified the State, you imply by your actions that there is nothing you will not stand by and let them do. I can understand that as a matter of cowardice, and I'm not saying I wouldn't fall to that either, but I can't understand it as a way of logic.


At least FF is going after someone specifically harming a family member and can understand his emotion though not his logic. You however have stated you would kill innocent people to get your way, not just those directly harming you or yours.

To be fair, I don't think AF was actually serious about that, just venting. Whereas most statists DO support killing innocent people for some reason or another, even if they cloak it in terms like "greater good" or "saving more lives" or "no other choice" or "collateral damage" or whatever else.

I'm not sure what's illogical about the distinction I'm making.

BTW: I'm EXTREMELY ticked about this case in particular despite not knowing the people involved, but I can think logically even when ticked. I think teaching them a lesson is the selfless and righteous action in this case. Also, I don't fear death as I know exactly where I'm going when I do die.


Yeah, I get it, you're anti war, anti forceful resistance, in all circumstances, for any reason, at any time.

Hooray for your consistency and moral superiority.

Define "war." By the conventional definition of war, I don't think I could ever be a part of it.

[Anti Federalist]

To be fair, I don't think AF was actually serious about that, just venting. Whereas most statists DO support killing innocent people for some reason or another, even if they cloak it in terms like "greater good" or "saving more lives" or "no other choice" or "collateral damage" or whatever else.

Do you recall the fellow that lost everything at the hands of IRS and flew his plane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas?

That's what started all this IIRC.

I felt the man was justified, if foolhardy, and could understand why he did such a thing.

Klamath's position was that there would surely be innocent people there, so you support innocents being killed.

This was a number of years ago now, so the details are fuzzy, if I missed anything I'm sure he'll stop by and correct me.

[Christian Liberty]

Do you recall the fellow that lost everything at the hands of IRS and flew his plane into the IRS building in Austin, Texas?

That's what started all this IIRC.

I felt the man was justified, if foolhardy, and could understand why he did such a thing.

Klamath's position was that there would surely be innocent people there, so you support innocents being killed.

This was a number of years ago now, so the details are fuzzy, if I missed anything I'm sure he'll stop by and correct me.

I can understand why he did it but this is a different degree of situation entirely. We're talking about a child here. I don't mean to minimize the plight of people who are robbed by this regime but kidnapping is a completely different level, IMO.

That said, I have no idea who would be in an IRS building. I have nothing but disgust for anyone who chooses to work for the IRS... killing them seems extreme but I don't view them as in any sense "innocent" either.

(No, I haven't heard of that guy before you mentioned it.)

[Anti Federalist]

Bump for update