Is pot over-taxed and over-regulated in Colorado already?

[Matt Collins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Sy7kb63-c

[dannno]

If it is taxed and regulated at all, then yes.

[Brian4Liberty]

Most likely.

A better strategy is to decriminalize it (with cigarette or alcohol style restrictions for minors) and just tax it the same as any other agricultural product.

[pcosmar]

Of course it is,

That was the price of "legalization".

"Tax and regulate it" they said. "Just like alcohol and tobacco" they said.

and now it is. :(

[Warlord]

Yes Collins.

[Anti-Neocon]

Yes, but raising money to fund the government was one of the primary arguments that was needed to win the fight. I think it's a price worth paying now, but in the long run it should go below alcohol/tobacco products, which are much more harmful.

[Occam's Banana]

If it is taxed and regulated at all, then yes.

Beat me to it.

taxed pot = over-taxed pot
regulated pot = over-regulated pot

[Brian4Liberty]

Yes, but raising money to fund the government was one of the primary arguments that was needed to win the fight. I think it's a price worth paying now, but in the long run it should go below alcohol/tobacco products, which are much more harmful.

Log rolling? Accepting one evil for one good?

[Dogsoldier]

6 bucks for a pack of Marlboros....6 bucks for 1 bud eventually.

[Snew]

If it is taxed and regulated at all, then yes.

Great minds think alike!

[Anti-Neocon]

Log rolling? Accepting one evil for one good?
I wouldn't consider taxation to be evil. Evil is criminalizing a plant that has many benefits even to people who don't quality for medicinal use, in order to lock people up to work for almost nothing.

As long as we keep spending at the rate we do, the spending will have to be funded by something. Where that funding comes from can be debated until eternity, but it isn't the source of the problem. A consumption tax on marijuana is rarely going to deprive people of something essential, so it's hardly the worst tax out there.

The spending is the problem.

[DamianTV]

I wouldn't consider taxation to be evil. Evil is criminalizing a plant that has many benefits even to people who don't quality for medicinal use, in order to lock people up to work for almost nothing.

As long as we keep spending at the rate we do, the spending will have to be funded by something. Where that funding comes from can be debated until eternity, but it isn't the source of the problem. A consumption tax on marijuana is rarely going to deprive people of something essential, so it's hardly the worst tax out there.

The spending is the problem.

+Rep

When the Legal consequences of a substance exceed the Medical consequences, you have Injustice.

Maybe the problem isnt a Lack of tax revenue, maybe the problem is they just Spend too much!

[Occam's Banana]

As long as we keep spending at the rate we do, the spending will have to be funded by something. Where that funding comes from can be debated until eternity, but it isn't the source of the problem. A consumption tax on marijuana is rarely going to deprive people of something essential, so it's hardly the worst tax out there.

The spending is the problem.

Consumption taxes deprive people of the money they would have had if it had not been taken from them.
You can assert that this is not "essential" to them, but I can make exactly the same claim with respect to every other source of revenue ...


Maybe the problem isnt a Lack of tax revenue, maybe the problem is they just Spend too much!

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Taxing and spending are like chickens and eggs.

You can't have one without the other ...

IOW: Taxing is the problem. Spending is the problem.

[Cabal]

Is it taxed and regulated at all? Then yes, it's over-taxed and over-regulated.

[kcchiefs6465]

I wouldn't consider taxation to be evil. Evil is criminalizing a plant that has many benefits even to people who don't quality for medicinal use, in order to lock people up to work for almost nothing.

As long as we keep spending at the rate we do, the spending will have to be funded by something. Where that funding comes from can be debated until eternity, but it isn't the source of the problem. A consumption tax on marijuana is rarely going to deprive people of something essential, so it's hardly the worst tax out there.

The spending is the problem.
People are still being imprisoned. If it's not for "DUI" it is another thing. Such as saying, "fuck you" to the feds. You can grow what, six plants? But what if one wanted ten thousand? Or not even to be "absurd", though I don't particularly find ten thousand plants to be particularly absurd, but what if one wanted seven? What if simply to keep up with what one consumed, one needed more than three vegetating and three flowering? What if one wanted to undercut the state's ridiculously artificially high prices?

Needless to say, they would be/are being imprisoned.

While the ones extorting a peaceful entrepreneur, or caregiver, are given sanction behind SWAT teams and APCs.

Something is flagrantly wrong with this scenario. And it doesn't become right simply because a majority of the most ignorant, superstitious, timid, dependent, servile, and corrupt portions of the people; of those who have been over-awed by the power, intelligence, wealth, and arrogance; of those who have been deceived by the frauds; and of those who have been corrupted by the inducements, of the few who really constitute the government coming together to say that something is, when it really isn't.

Evil is a lot of things.

[Victor Grey]

If they overtax and over-regulate it, people will shirk the regulations, and grow and sell it. As they do now. Profit margins will just be less. Like they do with alcohol. Though I image, growing plants would be a bit less of a hassle and more common.

Then, when that happens all the state lovers in society, will use that to start flapping at their little chicken arms wanting to keep the police state just as humongous as it ever was, wanting all that lost tax monies from those greedy ~>$60,000 a year pot growing fat cats out there.

The only people somewhat safe in the end, will be those with 2 or 3 joints worth on their person if they get pulled over.
The whole game of smuggling and catching smugglers won't end.

Mark my words though, the next 40 years it'll be the damned leftists who are closer to the prohibitionists than the political right.
There's not one reason they're going to make pot special. They can't even leave a taxi cab driver or a home-based bakery & delivery service the hell alone.

They sure aren't going to neglect to dig their failure little claws deep into the pot industry.

[Anti-Neocon]

Does anyone know what laws are for growing your own tobacco? I know a lot of people make their own wine or beer.

[DamianTV]

Consumption taxes deprive people of the money they would have had if it had not been taken from them.
You can assert that this is not "essential" to them, but I can make exactly the same claim with respect to every other source of revenue ...



Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Taxing and spending are like chickens and eggs.

You can't have one without the other ...

IOW: Taxing is the problem. Spending is the problem.

Very well put.

[surf]

i'm pretty sure it will be worse in Washington State (we can't even grow our own), but I voted for it.

given the greatest pro-decriminalization movement throughout this world that has ever been seen, I think everyone should thank WA and CO for providing a big boost to this mostly pro-freedom concept.

[Brian4Liberty]

I wouldn't consider taxation to be evil.
...
The spending is the problem.

Yep, spending is a huge problem.

I'll have to go ahead and call all taxation evil, but a little bit of evil is better than a whole lot of evil. IMHO, targeted and widely varying taxes are more evil than a flat, across the board tax. Taxing pot at one rate and some other agricultural product at a different rate is worse than a single rate for both.


Consumption taxes deprive people of the money they would have had if it had not been taken from them...
IOW: Taxing is the problem. Spending is the problem.

Yep.


Evil is a lot of things.

That could be a useful quote... ;)


Is it taxed and regulated at all? Then yes, it's over-taxed and over-regulated.

There we go. That is the reason that the last marijuana legalization Proposition failed in California. Crony (over) regulation, restrictions and high taxes. California said no.


Does anyone know what laws are for growing your own tobacco? I know a lot of people make their own wine or beer.

Good question. Pot should not be taxed more than tobacco. Ideally, the taxes would be the same as any other agricultural product.

[Schifference]

I would not claim to be any expert but I believe that in a controlled environment 6 females could bud indefinitely yielding more bud than any one person could possibly smoke. Furthermore cloning from the best budding females almost instantly manifests new budding females.

[surf]

I would not claim to be any expert but I believe that in a controlled environment 6 females could bud indefinitely yielding more bud than any one person could possibly smoke. Furthermore cloning from the best budding females almost instantly manifests new budding females.
and this is one of the items that sucks with the WA laws

[Schifference]

and this is one of the items that sucks with the WA laws

Who knows maybe if enough people were busted for growing their own it would be treated as an unpaid tax with interest & penalty rather than a criminal act. After all the dry plant is legal to own. Permits will probably eventually be issued to people that want to grow their own. Obviously the govt needs to become the new cartel.

[kcchiefs6465]

I would not claim to be any expert but I believe that in a controlled environment 6 females could bud indefinitely yielding more bud than any one person could possibly smoke. Furthermore cloning from the best budding females almost instantly manifests new budding females.
Three on, three off. A three and a half month harvest, a couple ounces per plant, you're looking at about, six to eight ounces per three months... give or take. About an ounce to smoke every two weeks. Certainly not an unheard of amount.

You run into issues too in that you don't want the same strain, or may want to experiment with different plants and cross breeding, or may want an indica, a sativa, and a good hybrid. Six plants is absurdly low. Female or not.

And in any case, these rules and regulations are simply there to keep a reason for the police to be able to warrantlessly check your home, as well as to keep the price artificially high.

[Cabal]

Yeah, I was about to say, 6 plants isn't necessarily going to be a huge yield, even with a high yield strain and good setup.

[Schifference]

I think 6 high yield potent plants are more than one person could utilize especially if vaporized.
Yeah, I was about to say, 6 plants isn't necessarily going to be a huge yield, even with a high yield strain and good setup.

[Cabal]

I think 6 high yield potent plants are more than one person could utilize especially if vaporized.

KC already explained why and how this isn't necessarily the case under a staggered growth cycle. In any case, why do you believe your determination of what is enough for anyone else, and how they ought to consume it according to you, is at all relevant? Shouldn't it be at the individual's discretion how much they want to grow or consume, and how they want to grow or consume it?

[Victor Grey]

I think 6 high yield potent plants are more than one person could utilize especially if vaporized.

Preferably by far, I'd rather there be no regulation, but if there is, and there will be because hurrah state, why not make it like, 20?

The government should look the other way if somebody wants to make a huge, 40 bucks off a spare ounce they have from one of their personal friends. I imagine when it becomes legal more or less, prices are going to dip.

There's always going to be people who aren't going to be interested in self sufficiency or who have different time preference.
Those can and will buy off the firms that are official taxed. There, the state can have it's precious lifeblood.
All those ever want to do is wet their ravenous beak, anyway.

Jailing small scale home growers is just plain stupid to me. It's counter to the whole point of supporting decriminalization/legalization.

Only reason that'll happen is firms lobbying, and support from hand rubbing social engineers. So I bet it will. War on drugs never goes away, it just becomes a bit softer.

[kcchiefs6465]

Preferably by far, I'd rather there be no regulation, but if there is, and there will be because hurrah state, why not make it like, 20?

The government should look the other way if somebody wants to make a huge, 40 bucks off a spare ounce they have from one of their personal friends. I imagine when it becomes legal more or less, prices are going to dip.

There's always going to be people who aren't going to be interested in self sufficiency or who have different time preference.
Those can and will buy off the firms that are official taxed. There, the state can have it's precious lifeblood.
All those ever want to do is wet their ravenous beak, anyway.

Jailing small scale home growers is just plain stupid to me. It's counter to the whole point of supporting decriminalization/legalization.

Only reason that'll happen is firms lobbying, and support from hand rubbing social engineers. So I bet it will. War on drugs never goes away, it just becomes a bit softer.
Do not forget the Per se DUI laws placing the legal limit at what 5 ng?

And look at the gem I just found:
Colorado: "More than 6 but fewer than 30 plants is a felony, 2 - 6 years, Max Fine: $ 500,000"

They call it freedom, and the people applaud.



Cultivation
Private cultivation by persons 21 years of age or older of up to six marijuana plants, with no more than three being mature is no penalty. (Who defines mature, might I ask? But a bureaucrat who knows next to nothing about botany.)

The cultivation of 6 plants or fewer is a Class 1 misdemeanor punishable by 6-18 months imprisonment as well as a fine between $500-$5,000.

The cultivation of more than 6 but fewer than 30 plants is a Class 5 felony punishable by 1-3 years imprisonment as well as a fine between $1,000-$100,000.


The cultivation of 30 or more plants is a Class 4 felony punishable by 2-6 years imprisonment as well as a fine between $2,000-$500,000.


This state has a per se drugged driving law enacted. In their strictest form, these laws forbid drivers from operating a motor vehicle if they have a detectable level of an illicit drug or drug metabolite (i.e., compounds produced from chemical changes of a drug in the body, but not necessarily psychoactive themselves) present in their bodily fluids above a specific, state-imposed threshold. Further information about cannabinoids and their impact on psychomotor performance is available here. Additional information regarding cannabinoids and proposed per se limits is available here.

Smh.

ETA: Norml has apparently mistyped. I copied the information straight from there. Laws do change and they are not always up to date. The inconsistency is reflected there. As it looks, growing over 30 plants, still an absurdly low amount, has a fine of up to $500,000. Growing over six plants but below thirty apparently has a fine of up to $100,000. Perhaps someone from Colorado can clarify?

In any case, utter absurdity.

[kcchiefs6465]

I knew it was a joke but wow.

Target the medicinal suppliers (those growing more than 30 plants), drive the prices up to 350 an ounce, steal a portion of that, fine the grower up to a half million, and the people will applaud you for it. They say it's freedom.

[Cabal]

Compromise is often very overrated.