PDA

View Full Version : Secession movement in New York pushes for Big Apple to split from Upstate




CaseyJones
02-17-2014, 07:25 PM
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/17/secession-movement-in-new-york-pushes-for-big-appl/


When Frank Sinatra sang “New York, New York,” he may have been on to something.

A movement is afoot to split New York into two regions — upstate and downstate — to acknowledge the gaping philosophical differences and improve representation.

“I’ve lived in New York all my life, and upstate and downstate have two different philosophies of life,” said John Bergener, an Albany County resident and organizer of the two New Yorks effort. “And it seems like they’re always in conflict.”

Campaigns for “secession” or a 51st state have been on the rise since the 2012 presidential election — see California, Colorado and Maryland — but the New York movement has a twist.

Instead of splitting New York into two distinct states, advocates want one state controlled by two autonomous regional governments.

RM918
02-17-2014, 07:33 PM
I wish it'd split from the entire country.

kahless
02-17-2014, 07:44 PM
I wonder how they figure Rockland County into being part of the NYC state. Unlike Westchester I do not see the connection or benefit unless they plan on actually extending MTA train service into Rockland.

gwax23
02-17-2014, 07:48 PM
Id support this. Should split it in three. New York City, Long Island, and Upstate. The Upsate could be called "Niagra" or something. Division is long overdue.

kahless
02-17-2014, 08:03 PM
Id support this. Should split it in three. New York City, Long Island, and Upstate. The Upsate could be called "Niagra" or something. Division is long overdue.

Just keep Rockland out of NYC. The new mayor makes Bloomberg look like Ron Paul. The guy is a communist and has his head up ass to boot.

VoluntaryAmerican
02-17-2014, 08:19 PM
LOL so let me get this straight 90%+ percent of the state will have its name changed and the smaller percent will keep the name. hilarious.

Origanalist
02-17-2014, 08:43 PM
I support anything that breaks the entrenched power hubs. If it happens once people can see it can be done.

gwax23
02-17-2014, 08:45 PM
Just keep Rockland out of NYC. The new mayor makes Bloomberg look like Ron Paul. The guy is a communist and has his head up ass to boot.

I agree. Deblasio is a bastard. Only the Boroughs should be part of this proposed New York "city state" though if Staten Island wanted out and even my own queens that be good too.

Rocco
02-17-2014, 09:06 PM
Yawn, theyve been talking about this since my dad was a kid 50 years ago.

Antischism
02-17-2014, 09:27 PM
I approve of this.

Antischism
02-17-2014, 09:39 PM
Just keep Rockland out of NYC. The new mayor makes Bloomberg look like Ron Paul. The guy is a communist and has his head up ass to boot.

He's not a communist, he's a social democrat. And while I doubt he's any better than Bloomberg, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he makes Bloomberg look like "Ron Paul" when he just started his term very recently, and has already been outspoken about ending stop and frisk, at least.

Christian Liberty
02-17-2014, 09:57 PM
If this were to happen, Long Island would really need to be separate from NYC. Long Island is bad but not anywhere near New York City bad...

eduardo89
02-17-2014, 10:00 PM
If this were to happen, Long Island would really need to be separate from NYC. Long Island is bad but not anywhere near New York City bad...

Long Island has elected Peter King to Congress. 11 times.

Christian Liberty
02-17-2014, 10:11 PM
Long Island has elected Peter King to Congress. 11 times.

New York City banned 20 oz sodas. I'm not saying that Long Island doesn't suck, because it does. But its not as bad as NYC.

Origanalist
02-17-2014, 10:13 PM
Yawn, theyve been talking about this since my dad was a kid 50 years ago.

I'm sorry, are we keeping you awake?

Matt Collins
02-17-2014, 10:28 PM
Do we really want NYC to have two Senators?!

Christian Liberty
02-17-2014, 10:32 PM
Do we really want NYC to have two Senators?!

No, but upstate would get two senators too. Right now, NYC mostly rules over the entire State, and upstate doesn't get two senators.

I'd love to see NYC kicked out of the Union, but if that won't happpen, at least making them leave the rest of NYS alone would be an improvement... for me at any rate.

VoluntaryAmerican
02-17-2014, 10:40 PM
No, but upstate would get two senators too. Right now, NYC mostly rules over the entire State, and upstate doesn't get two senators.

I'd love to see NYC kicked out of the Union, but if that won't happpen, at least making them leave the rest of NYS alone would be an improvement... for me at any rate.

Are you from NY?

This would be a horrible idea to split the two for the reason Collins said. It's true a lot of Upstate NY votes Republican, but they are just like Democrats by our standards. Good example was when a tea party challenger split the vote in the NY-21 (north country) race in maybe 2009 and Dede Scozzafava (R) endorsed the (D) Bill Owens. Now she works for Cuomo. And for the record I think Owens is the better of the two by a long shot.

Gillibrand who is upstate's Senator was appointed and she has pretty high likeability all around in NY.

gwax23
02-17-2014, 10:43 PM
Depends how you split "upstate" some of it is Union country.

VoluntaryAmerican
02-17-2014, 10:48 PM
Depends how you split "upstate" some of it is Union country.

Another thing is the people in the article aren't really advocating splitting into two separate state's that would be recognized by the Fed. government. So under that premise the idea is much better.

Christian Liberty
02-17-2014, 10:56 PM
Are you from NY?


I live on Long Island, I don't particularly like it but I live with my parents and that's where they live right now. I'm in community college right now (cheaper) so it is what it is.

I don't really know about the national level elections as much, but NYC is a LOT more restrictive with its local government than eastern Long Island. LI is still bad, but its not really even close.

gwax23
02-18-2014, 12:08 AM
I live on Long Island, I don't particularly like it but I live with my parents and that's where they live right now. I'm in community college right now (cheaper) so it is what it is.

I don't really know about the national level elections as much, but NYC is a LOT more restrictive with its local government than eastern Long Island. LI is still bad, but its not really even close.

Nassau or Suffolk?

Peace&Freedom
02-18-2014, 07:29 AM
The cleanest and simplest partition solution would be to create a North and South NY, with territory from Westchester on down called the latter. Although Westchester and Long island may not like NYC, they are much more interdependent on it for commerce and transit than the rest of the state is as part of its metro area, thus would have to be part of the new entity.

My own preference is for my beloved Queens and the other "outer boroughs" to separate from Manhattan and be the separate city-counties they were originally designed to be. Brooklyn and Queens have a population of over 2 million each, which would individually put them both on the top ten list for largest cities in America if they were separate entities. Staten Island/Richmond and Bronx could definitely use their independence (SI due to it being a Republican dominated oasis in an otherwise Democratic mega city, Bronx because half the county has a Westchester ambiance anyway). It's time for the rest of NYC to secede from NY county.

tasteless
02-18-2014, 07:29 AM
ugh why do they want to attach Rockland to NYC, take us with you New Amsterdam!

Christian Liberty
02-18-2014, 07:37 AM
Nassau or Suffolk?


The cleanest and simplest partision solution would be to create a North and South NY, with territory from Westchester on down called the latter. Although Westcheste and Long island may not like NYC, they are much more interdependent on it for commerce and transit than the rest of the state is as part of its metro area, thus would have to be part of the new entity.

Why can't LI also secede and form its own state?

Christian Liberty
02-18-2014, 07:37 AM
Nassau or Suffolk?

Suffolk.

Peace&Freedom
02-18-2014, 07:59 AM
Why can't LI also secede and form its own state?

I would have no objection.

compromise
02-18-2014, 08:15 AM
Why can't LI also secede and form its own state?

So we'll have gone from 2 Democratic Senators to 6 Democratic Senators.

While we're at it, why not split California into SoCal and NorCal too? And grant North Virginia, South Florida, South Texas, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, US Samoa, Guam and DC statehood too?

That way we can make the US a one party nation.

osan
02-18-2014, 08:23 AM
I wish it'd split from the entire country.

And sink into the sea.

eduardo89
02-18-2014, 08:25 AM
So we'll have gone from 2 Democratic Senators to 6 Democratic Senators.

Upstate NY as well as Long Island (if you only include Sussex and Nassau counties) would be R-leaning swing states. Of course, these Republicans would be moderates at best.

Christian Liberty
02-18-2014, 08:25 AM
So we'll have gone from 2 Democratic Senators to 6 Democratic Senators.

While we're at it, why not split California into SoCal and NorCal too? And grant North Virginia, South Florida, South Texas, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, US Samoa, Guam and DC statehood too?

That way we can make the US a one party nation.

I don't really view this as relevant. People should be able to associate with who they want. if you want to make secession from the Union a requirement, I'm OK with that.

osan
02-18-2014, 08:26 AM
Id support this. Should split it in three. New York City, Long Island, and Upstate. The Upsate could be called "Niagra" or something. Division is long overdue.

Better idea: upstate remains New York, the city becomes "Shit Hole City" and the Island... well, who cares what they call it.

compromise
02-18-2014, 11:07 AM
Upstate NY as well as Long Island (if you only include Sussex and Nassau counties) would be R-leaning swing states. Of course, these Republicans would be moderates at best.

The 4 CDs that make up "Long Island state":

NY-4 D+3 - Obama 56-43%
NY-3 EVEN - Obama 50-49%
NY-2 R+1, 2012 - Obama 52-48%
NY-1 R+2, 2012 - Obama 50-49%

Each CD has roughly 500,000 inhabitants.

If it were a state, it would have gone to Obama 52-47 in 2012 - the same as Pennsylvania.

CDs 17-27, which would make up the Upstate NY state, would have gone 54-44 in the same election, making it a little more blue than 54-45 Michigan.

R-leaning swing states? You mean like Indiana or North Carolina? No way.

tony m
02-18-2014, 11:18 AM
The split in the state is being pursued more in the limelight than before.

However, there is quite the action taking place in two southern tier counties, Cattaraugus and Chautauqua, that border Pennsylvania. A group has started to attend town councils and the county legislatures concerning seceding from New York State and joining PA. This is a serious movement, as possibly more doable. Expect to hear more about this over the course of this year.

gwax23
02-18-2014, 11:23 AM
The 4 CDs that make up "Long Island state":

NY-4 D+3 - Obama 56-43%
NY-3 EVEN - Obama 50-49%
NY-2 R+1, 2012 - Obama 52-48%
NY-1 R+2, 2012 - Obama 50-49%

Each CD has roughly 500,000 inhabitants.

If it were a state, it would have gone to Obama 52-47 in 2012 - the same as Pennsylvania.

CDs 17-27, which would make up the Upstate NY state, would have gone 54-44 in the same election, making it a little more blue than 54-45 Michigan.

R-leaning swing states? You mean like Indiana or North Carolina? No way.

Maybe for the presidential election but in terms of congressional representation it looks half and half.

Christian Liberty
02-18-2014, 11:26 AM
Better idea: upstate remains New York, the city becomes "Shit Hole City" and the Island... well, who cares what they call it.

lol!.... What do you guys who live in New York State think about all this? Frankly, I don't like making this a national level politics utilitarian calculation. If Long Island or Upstate or NYC wants to separate I feel like morally they have a right not to be governed by people who they disagree with. What do you guys think?

gwax23
02-18-2014, 11:28 AM
lol!.... What do you guys who live in New York State think about all this? Frankly, I don't like making this a national level politics utilitarian calculation. If Long Island or Upstate or NYC wants to separate I feel like morally they have a right not to be governed by people who they disagree with. What do you guys think?

I agree. Maybe it wont be so good for presidential elections but I think the Republicans would benefit in the congress from splitting New York in 3.

JK/SEA
02-18-2014, 11:31 AM
And sink into the sea.


well....there is this.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2011/03/oh_by_the_way_an_enormous_tsun.html

eduardo89
02-18-2014, 11:32 AM
I agree. Maybe it wont be so good for presidential elections but I think the Republicans would benefit in the congress from splitting New York in 3.

It wouldn't really affect the outcome of presidential elections since the Electoral College is distributed based on population. So if Democrats win New York now, and win both New Yorks later, it's the same amount of votes in the EC.

That said, the GOP would have a better chance at gaining Congressional and Senatorial seats, as well as state government in a split-up New York.

MichaelDavis
02-18-2014, 01:06 PM
The 4 CDs that make up "Long Island state":

NY-4 D+3 - Obama 56-43%
NY-3 EVEN - Obama 50-49%
NY-2 R+1, 2012 - Obama 52-48%
NY-1 R+2, 2012 - Obama 50-49%

Each CD has roughly 500,000 inhabitants.

If it were a state, it would have gone to Obama 52-47 in 2012 - the same as Pennsylvania.

CDs 17-27, which would make up the Upstate NY state, would have gone 54-44 in the same election, making it a little more blue than 54-45 Michigan.

R-leaning swing states? You mean like Indiana or North Carolina? No way.

I took the county data for 2012 and found that under this proposal "New York" went for Obama 71-29%, while "New Amsterdam" went for Obama 55-45%. I can understand Upstate's frustration. In Missouri, two counties, St. Louis and Jackson (which includes Kansas City) basically control half of our vote (just look at our 2010 U.S. Senate election). The same problem exist in Illinois where Cook County (Chicago) controls the rest of the state (look at their 2010 gubernatorial election). There's a cool map that I found where every state is drawn based on metropolitan areas and population:http://blogs.reed.edu/politika/files/2013/02/Screen-shot-2013-02-14-at-10.57.43-AM.png

Christian Liberty
02-18-2014, 01:26 PM
It wouldn't really affect the outcome of presidential elections since the Electoral College is distributed based on population. So if Democrats win New York now, and win both New Yorks later, it's the same amount of votes in the EC.

Not exactly the same. Each state gets two votes for free, just for being a state, no matter how big it is. Then they get one or more extra votes based on population. But, since every state without exception has two senators, I do think it would be a slight improvement for the Dems if they did in fact win both (all three?) New Yorks. But, if they did not, they would lose out big.

LibertyEagle
02-18-2014, 01:56 PM
No, but upstate would get two senators too. Right now, NYC mostly rules over the entire State, and upstate doesn't get two senators.

I'd love to see NYC kicked out of the Union, but if that won't happpen, at least making them leave the rest of NYS alone would be an improvement... for me at any rate.

Move New York City to Plum Island.

Problem solved.

:p

eduardo89
02-18-2014, 02:29 PM
Not exactly the same. Each state gets two votes for free, just for being a state, no matter how big it is. Then they get one or more extra votes based on population. But, since every state without exception has two senators, I do think it would be a slight improvement for the Dems if they did in fact win both (all three?) New Yorks. But, if they did not, they would lose out big.

That's true, but both new New York States would have way more population than just having two votes. They would have the same amount of votes put together than the current state has now. Even if there was a variance, it would be by 1 or maximum 2 votes.

The smallest states have around 600,000 in population, whereas if New York were divided between Upstate and NYC+Long Island their populations would be around 8 million and 11 million respectively. Upstate New York would be the 12th most populous state and NYC+Long Island would be the 7th most populous state.

If Upstate+Long Island were a state it would be the 7th most populous state with a population of about 11 million and NYC would be the 11th most populous state with a population of over 8 million.

If you divide NY into three states, you still get states with large populations. Upstate with about 8 million(13th largest), NYC with over 8 million (11th largest), and Long Island with over 3 million (29th largest)



Upstate alone has a population of about Virginia
New York City (5 boroughs) alone almost has the population of New Jersey
Long Island alone has the population comparable to Iowa, Arkansas or Mississippi.

kahless
02-18-2014, 02:31 PM
I took the county data for 2012 and found that under this proposal "New York" went for Obama 71-29%, while "New Amsterdam" went for Obama 55-45%....

If you remove the state worker, welfare and minority demographic shifting counties from that list you see a huge swing in favor of Romney. (Albany, Buffalo, lower Hudson Valley).

I hate to use these numbers anyway considering Romney is not a Conservative and people like me could not hold their nose to vote for him. I suspect you could add another 5% to the R side to gauge it for those that sat home, voted 3rd party, write-in or simply did not select a Presidential candidate.

eduardo89
02-18-2014, 02:42 PM
If you remove the state worker, welfare and minority demographic shifting counties from that list you see a huge swing in favor of Romney. (Albany, Buffalo, lower Hudson Valley).

That's true. You have to account for the thousands of state parasites who would move to NYC if Upstate NY were to be split off. I'd also include Rockland County and Westchester County with NYC. The Congressional districts that cover those two counties are D+5 and D+19 (the latter includes part of the Bronx), and voted D big time in 2008 and 2012.

Cut that off from Upstate NY and you have a pretty Republican state.

Smart3
02-18-2014, 07:12 PM
Id support this. Should split it in three. New York City, Long Island, and Upstate. The Upsate could be called "Niagra" or something. Division is long overdue.

Strongly support. Upstate should be called Roosevelt.

gwax23
02-18-2014, 07:14 PM
Strongly support. Upstate should be called Roosevelt.

Ehh I dont like state names based on people.

Smart3
02-18-2014, 07:31 PM
Ehh I dont like state names based on people.

You prefer them based on rivers?

gwax23
02-18-2014, 07:38 PM
You prefer them based on rivers?

Yes Geography.