Road salt delivery to NJ held up because ship is not flying U.S. flag

[jim49er]

A large shipment of rock salt is not allowed to enter the Port of Newark because the ship does not fly an American flag, according to a report on NorthJersey.com.

The 40,000 ton shipment is in Maine and won't be permitted to be unloaded in New Jersey unless a waiver to the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 is obtained, the website reported.

If a waiver from the federal government isn't provided, the rock salt would have to be moved onto slower-moving barges. The ship with the rock salt, on the other hand, could reach the Port of Newark in two days.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2014/02/rock_salt_shipment_held_up_because_ship_is_not_fly ing_us_flag_report_sayd.html

[gwax23]

Worthless act. It is the reason we had gas shortages in the North East during hurricane sandy. No foreign ships are allowed to dock. This act has destroy the American Shipbuilding industry and sent costs for all goods transported by Sea up, if not creating outright shortages in times of natural calamity.

Should be ended, instead of the constant federal waivers.

[eduardo89]

The Jones Act needs to be repealed.

It's one of the reasons why the cost of living is so damn high in Puerto Rico and Hawaii.

[fr33]

THESE COLORS DON'T RUN!!!!!

[cjm]

THESE COLORS DON'T RUN!!!!!

May the wings of liberty never lose a feather.

[Danke]

The Jones Act needs to be repealed.

It's one of the reasons why the cost of living is so damn high in Puerto Rico and Hawaii.

Until we have a truly free market system, the act for now protects American jobs.

[phill4paul]

It's very reasonable. What if they are Iranians?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Some people need a few good blasts of rock salt up their ass.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Approval given when the Government Flag was run up the pole, docked immediate:

http://kwout.com/cutout/y/47/77/gyj_bor.jpg

[gwax23]

It's very reasonable. What if they are Iranians?

Theyll try to sell us fake gucci

[donnay]

Until we have a truly free market system, the act for now protects American jobs.

John McCain and some of his other cronies would like nothing more than to see the Jones Act go away. He tried pushing legislation to end it during the Gulf of Mexico disaster which was under the direction of a foreign company, no less.

They try to use the term "Free Trade" as if we haven't already witnessed what the so-called "Free Trade" has done to American jobs. SMH.

[Root]

Fuck 'em. I don't care if there's road salt, I work from home. Bestest commute evar!

It's going to be near 50F this weekend. It will melt eventually ;)

[eduardo89]

John McCain and some of his other cronies would like nothing more than to see the Jones Act go away.

John McCain actually does something to promote a more free market by repealing a law that protects a select few from competition.
Gets slammed as a crony capitalist.

[angelatc]

John McCain actually does something to promote a more free market by repealing a law that protects a select few from competition.
Gets slammed as a crony capitalist.

Only on Ron Paul Forums.

[specsaregood]

John McCain actually does something to promote a more free market by repealing a law that protects a select few from competition.
Gets slammed as a crony capitalist.

Meh. There can be no free market as long as our money is the global fiat currency that we can print at will. I'm not convinced by arguments that protectionism is bad in our current environment and in fact think it can slow the bleeding. Fact is, the "free market" façade has been used by crony capitalists for decades now.

[eduardo89]

Meh. There can be no free market as long as our money is the global fiat currency that we can print at will. I'm not convinced by arguments that protectionism is bad in our current environment and in fact think it can slow the bleeding. Fact is, the "free market" façade has been used by crony capitalists for decades now.

I'm personally a protectionist, I favor things such as import tariffs. But I don't agree with the Jones Act in that it does not actually protect the American producer or consumer. All it does is increase prices by complicating logistics.

It's even worse if you live in Hawaii or Puerto Rico. For example, if you live in Hawaii, ships coming from Asia just pass you by because they legally cannot stop in Hawaii and offload goods that are bound for the island and then continue to California to offload the CONUS-bound goods. They must go all the way to California, offload there, then a US-flagged ship must take those goods to Hawaii. It's absurd. At the very least Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands should get a waiver from the Jones Act.

[donnay]

I'm personally a protectionist, I favor things such as import tariffs. But I don't agree with the Jones Act in that it does not actually protect the American producer or consumer. All it does is increase prices by complicating logistics.

It's even worse if you live in Hawaii or Puerto Rico. For example, if you live in Hawaii, ships coming from Asia just pass you by because they legally cannot stop in Hawaii and offload goods that are bound for the island and then continue to California to offload the CONUS-bound goods. They must go all the way to California, offload there, then a US-flagged ship must take those goods to Hawaii. It's absurd. At the very least Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands should get a waiver from the Jones Act.


So you're suggesting that we should do like the cruise industry does? Waiver US-flagged vessels and use the Flags of Convenience in certain areas?

[gwax23]

Until we have a truly free market system, the act for now protects American jobs.

No it doesnt. By your logic we shouldnt do anything to move int he right direction unless it one fell swoop.

This doesnt protect "American Jobs" I didnt know jobs had a nationality. All it does is drives up the cost for goods for everyone in order to protect a few privileged.


Meh. There can be no free market as long as our money is the global fiat currency that we can print at will. I'm not convinced by arguments that protectionism is bad in our current environment and in fact think it can slow the bleeding. Fact is, the "free market" façade has been used by crony capitalists for decades now.

So since we have bad monetary policy we should just give up on all other areas of the economy? We might as well go full commie since "There can be no free market as long as our money is the global fiat currency"

What arguments? Protectionism is bad economic policy. That is a fact. It doesnt protect "jobs" only failing and noncompetitive industries. It drives the costs for goods and services upwards, and that actually hurts the American people by forcing them to pay higher prices for goods and service only to protect certain peoples interests.

Protectionism is the biggest crony capitalist policy of all. Its government intervention to help failing "American" businesses, allowing them to charge higher prices.

It doesnt stop any bleeding, its like putting your finger deep into an open wound. You got everything backwards.

The Free Market isnt a facade its economic truth.


John McCain and some of his other cronies would like nothing more than to see the Jones Act go away. He tried pushing legislation to end it during the Gulf of Mexico disaster which was under the direction of a foreign company, no less.

They try to use the term "Free Trade" as if we haven't already witnessed what the so-called "Free Trade" has done to American jobs. SMH.

Getting rid of the Jones Act would be true free trade. Just because McCain supported it doesnt mean its discredited. Getting rid of the Jones act would mean any ships can dock in American Ports to deliver goods. Why should the government dictate what ships are allowed to dock in the US? At privately owned ports no less....

Its absurd.

[specsaregood]

It doesnt stop any bleeding, its like putting your finger deep into an open wound. You got everything backwards.

My observations have not led to that conclusion and I've been around here long enough to here all the talking points and slogans.



The Free Market isnt a facade its economic truth.
I didn't say the real free market itself was a façade. But rather that for decades crony capitalists have used a fake free market to destroy America.

[gwax23]

My observations have not led to that conclusion and I've been around here long enough to here all the talking points and slogans.


I didn't say the real free market itself was a façade. But rather that for decades crony capitalists have used a fake free market to destroy America.

You talk about Crony Capitalism while supporting the greatest crony capitalist policy of all. protectionism.

You want to let the government dictate what ships can and cannot enter a certain port. You want to favor certain shipbuilding industries that cant compete without this government support. Thats Crony Capitalism. Why should we support crony capitalism just because the Fed Exists? Should we abandon all principles because of the Fed?

For someone who claims to have heard all the "Talking points and slogans" youve reached some pretty shitty conclusions.

[donnay]

No it doesnt. By your logic we shouldnt do anything to move int he right direction unless it one fell swoop.

This doesnt protect "American Jobs" I didnt know jobs had a nationality. All it does is drives up the cost for goods for everyone in order to protect a few privileged.



So since we have bad monetary policy we should just give up on all other areas of the economy? We might as well go full commie since "There can be no free market as long as our money is the global fiat currency"

What arguments? Protectionism is bad economic policy. That is a fact. It doesnt protect "jobs" only failing and noncompetitive industries. It drives the costs for goods and services upwards, and that actually hurts the American people by forcing them to pay higher prices for goods and service only to protect certain peoples interests.

Protectionism is the biggest crony capitalist policy of all. Its government intervention to help failing "American" businesses, allowing them to charge higher prices.

It doesnt stop any bleeding, its like putting your finger deep into an open wound. You got everything backwards.

The Free Market isnt a facade its economic truth.



Getting rid of the Jones Act would be true free trade. Just because McCain supported it doesnt mean its discredited. Getting rid of the Jones act would mean any ships can dock in American Ports to deliver goods. Why should the government dictate what ships are allowed to dock in the US? At privately owned ports no less....

Its absurd.

What's absurd is people thinking by getting rid of the Jones Act will help usher-in a Free Market. It would just put US mariners out of work like the rest of the Free Trade acts have out sourced American jobs.

[specsaregood]

For someone who claims to have heard all the "Talking points and slogans" youve reached some pretty shitty conclusions.

Yeah, they aren't convincing. I used to think like you; I was converted through observations and discussions primarily here on rpfs. There are dozens of long threads here where various people have argued over the subject, feel free to search around and read them if the subject interests you.

[eduardo89]

So you're suggesting that we should do like the cruise industry does? Waiver US-flagged vessels and use the Flags of Convenience in certain areas?

I'm suggesting we abolish the Jones Act entirely. It serves no legitimate purpose except for increasing prices for American producers and consumers.

If a full repeal can't be reached, then a waiver should be given to Hawaii and Puerto Rico which suffer unnecessarily from this ridiculous law.

[eduardo89]

What's absurd is people thinking by getting rid of the Jones Act will help usher-in a Free Market. It would just put US mariners out of work like the rest of the Free Trade acts have put out sourced American jobs.

We know the reason you support this economically damaging law is because your husband depends on it for his livelihood. I guess you support freeing up the market, except when it affects your economic interests.

[donnay]

We know the reason you support this economically damaging law is because your husband depends on it for his livelihood. I guess you support freeing up the market, except when it affects your economic interests.

And I should take advice from a foreigner?

[gwax23]

What's absurd is people thinking by getting rid of the Jones Act will help usher-in a Free Market. It would just put US mariners out of work like the rest of the Free Trade acts have put out sourced American jobs.

It wont in and of itself but its a great move in the right direction.

Your free to believe using government to control the economy is morally right. Your wrong morally and economically. Forcing everyone to pay higher prices to support failing shipbuilding industries in the US is wrong. Your a crony capitalist.

You should change it from "Live free or die trying!" to "Live free or fuck it we might as well have more government!"


Yeah, they aren't convincing. I used to think like you; I was converted through observations and discussions primarily here on rpfs. There are dozens of long threads here where various people have argued over the subject, feel free to search around and read them if the subject interests you.

I dont care if their convincing to you its economic law. Just because the fed is creating price inflation doesnt mean we should allow more price inflation to be created through protectionism. Two wrongs dont make a right.

This act doesnt protect american workers. On net its going to cost far more jobs lost and prosperity lost then the few jobs it "saved" You want to sacrifice countless jobs that could of been created or were lost in order to protect one failing industry with political connections.

I guess crony capitalism does have a huge support on these forums. Or maybe we are living in lalala land where support to get the government out of the economy = crony capitalism and support for more government in the economy = freedom???

[eduardo89]

And I should take advice from a foreigner?

lol, so you have no coherent argument so you resort to what you think is an attack.

[pcosmar]

What's absurd is people thinking by getting rid of the Jones Act will help usher-in a Free Market. It would just put US mariners out of work like the rest of the Free Trade acts have out sourced American jobs.

No it wouldn't. They can get jobs on Liberian registered ships. There are plenty of them..
http://www.liscr.com/liscr/AboutUs/AboutLiberianRegistry/tabid/206/Default.aspx

More ridiculous corporate shell games,, Because over-regulation has forced registries offshore,, literally.

[gwax23]

No it wouldn't. They can get jobs on Liberian registered ships. There are plenty of them..
More ridiculous corporate shell games,, Because over-regulation has forced registries offshore,, literally.

This...

The US had a robust and growing shipbuilding industry prior to this act. This act "protected" nothing it simply destroyed the industry and most of its jobs. All in the name of making a few well connected crony capitalists money...

But who cares right? If we cant live in a Rothbardian Free Market paradise then why bother at all??!!

[donnay]

I'm suggesting we abolish the Jones Act entirely. It serves no legitimate purpose except for increasing prices for American producers and consumers.

If a full repeal can't be reached, then a waiver should be given to Hawaii and Puerto Rico which suffer unnecessarily from this ridiculous law.

It's a ridiculous law to foreigners, I know.

[eduardo89]

It's a ridiculous law to foreigners, I know.

It's a ridiculous law to American producers and consumers who are forced to pay more for shipping. Why do you want Hawaiians and Puerto Ricans be burdened with an extremely high cost of living? Why do you want American producers to have to pay more for sending their good around the country? Why do you want American consumers to pay more?

Quit trying to defend a crony capitalist law that benefits you.

[donnay]

It wont in and of itself but its a great move in the right direction.

Your free to believe using government to control the economy is morally right. Your wrong morally and economically. Forcing everyone to pay higher prices to support failing shipbuilding industries in the US is wrong. Your a crony capitalist.

You should change it from "Live free or die trying!" to "Live free or fuck it we might as well have more government!"


Until we change the American peoples minds, we will never get anywhere. We do not have a free market and never will so long as government is involved in business and our enterprises in general.

[specsaregood]

I dont care if their convincing to you its economic law. Just because the fed is creating price inflation doesnt mean we should allow more price inflation to be created through protectionism. Two wrongs dont make a right.


The fed is creating price inflation? I thought they were creating monetary inflation to which price inflation is a predictable result.

I'd prefer price inflation caused by protectionism and having americans with industry and manufacturing capabilities rather than further the process of turning us into useless royalty or fattened cows moving towards the eventual slaughter.

[eduardo89]

Until we change the American peoples minds, we will never get anywhere. We do not have a free market and never will so long as government is involved in business and our enterprises in general.

So repeal the Jones Act. That will get government out of at least one part of the shipping industry.

[oyarde]

I am out of salt myself , I do not think I am going to buy anymore , seems pointless , my entire drive is about three inches of ice , eventually it will melt . Why are we importing salt ?

[pcosmar]

So repeal the Jones Act. That will get government out of at least one part of the shipping industry.

Or give it a serious revision. (I am in favor of Deregulating), There are some points of the Jones act that may be worth keeping, but overall it is detrimental.

What is curious to me is why is a request of a waiver being denied?
that strikes me as nothing but dirty politics getting in the way of an actual need.

[gwax23]

Until we change the American peoples minds, we will never get anywhere. We do not have a free market and never will so long as government is involved in business and our enterprises in general.

Yea we need to change your mind. How can we solve the problem of crony capitalism with more crony capitalism? Please explain your method because it baffling me. How do we get government uninvolved in business by making it more involved???


The fed is creating price inflation? I thought they were creating monetary inflation to which price inflation is a predictable result.

I'd prefer price inflation caused by protectionism and having americans with industry and manufacturing capabilities rather than further the process of turning us into useless royalty or fattened cows moving towards the eventual slaughter.

Yes your right....I said price Inflation because we are talking about price inflation. Protectionism cannot create monetary inflation only Price inflation.

Hows the manufacturing sector doing for you? Hint its fucking dead and has been because of government regulation taxes and protectionism.

And no one signed up to accept higher prices because you want to shape the economy to your ideal. Why should everyone pay higher for goods and services because some bureaucrat....or you....thinks we should have more of a certain industry in the economy?

If you really want your ideal why not just create 5 year plans and nationalize the whole economy? Youll get your results a lot faster than pretending to support freedom and free markets...

[pcosmar]

Why are we importing salt ?

Not sure we are.

just moving it from point to point.

[gwax23]

I am out of salt myself , I do not think I am going to buy anymore , seems pointless , my entire drive is about three inches of ice , eventually it will melt . Why are we importing salt ?

Only American ships can carry the salt to American ports. Because....jobs...you know....AMERICA!!

[donnay]

So repeal the Jones Act. That will get government out of at least one part of the shipping industry.


There has already been waivers done to the Jones Act. DHS grants blanket waivers to whom they want. Government involvement is still there.



Requests for waivers of certain provisions of the act are reviewed by the United States Maritime Administration on a case-by-case basis. Waivers have been granted in cases of national emergencies or in cases of strategic interest.

In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff temporarily waived the coastwise laws for foreign vessels carrying oil and natural gas from September 1 to 19, 2005.[18][19]

In order to conduct an emergency shipment of gasoline from Dutch Harbor, Alaska to Nome in January 2012, Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano granted a waiver to the Russian ice class marine tanker Renda. Renda was originally scheduled to onload gasoline in Northern Japan for shipment but was unable due to a gale.[20]

The Department of Homeland Security issued a temporary blanket waiver of the Jones Act for the shipment of petroleum products from Gulf Coast Petroleum Administration for Defense District (PADD 3) to the New England and Central Atlantic Petroleum Administration for Defense Districts (PADDs 1 a and 1 b, respectively) for 12 days from November 2 to 13 2012, following widespread fuel shortages caused by Hurricane Sandy. see Waiver of Compliance with Navigation Law, Dept. of Homeland Security (Nov. 2, 2012)[21]

[gwax23]

There has already been waivers done to the Jones Act. DHS grants blanket waivers to whom they want. Government involvement is still there.

Crony Capitalism when there are no natural disasters...soon as a hurricane hits they realize they need the free market to sort things out. Indirect admission of guilt.

[eduardo89]

There has already been waivers done to the Jones Act. DHS grants blanket waivers to whom they want. Government involvement is still there.

Solution: Eliminate the Jones Act and you don't have the problem of government being there.

[gwax23]

We should just take support of the Jones act to its logical conclusion.

"No One may use or consume any good which is not made in the greatest country on earth....America"

TV shows? Made abroad? NEIN.
Car? Made Abroad? NEIN.
Food? From Abroad? NEIN.
Phone? Made Abroad? NEIN.
Clothes? Made abroad? NEIN.

We have to protect the jobs!! We cant allow free markets because we dont have a free market!!! Logic sucks!!

[oyarde]

Only American ships can carry the salt to American ports. Because....jobs...you know....AMERICA!!

Oh . yeah , I understand the Jones , but where did this salt come from ? If it came from the US , would it not be easier to move it by rail ?>

[eduardo89]

Oh . yeah , I understand the Jones , but where did this salt come from ? If it came from the US , would it not be easier to move it by rail ?>

Not if the railroads are suffering weather related problems.

[oyarde]

Not if the railroads are suffering weather related problems.

I had not thought of that , I figured trains could move through snow . I do not know .

[eduardo89]

I had not thought of that , I figured trains could move through snow . I do not know .

They can, but railroad switches don't function very well in cold water.

[69360]

IMO keep the Jones act as is, but permanently exempt AK, HI and PR. Expedite emergency waivers as needed like the rock salt. There is still value in keeping shipping within the US done by US ships and crews.

[pcosmar]

I had not thought of that , I figured trains could move through snow . I do not know .

They do up here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFStD6B5RJI

[jbauer]

It's very reasonable. What if they are Iranians?

Worse yet, Muslims, or heck even tea partiers!!

[Nirvikalpa]

I had not thought of that , I figured trains could move through snow . I do not know .

The problems with the trains in this area (NJ/NYC-metro) is the bridges... constantly freezing and icing up, so ice checks hold up the trains for hours, sometimes. Signal problems too, weather-related.

My county's been out of salt now for the last two storms.

[Root]

The problems with the trains in this area (NJ/NYC-metro) is the bridges... constantly freezing and icing up, so ice checks hold up the trains for hours, sometimes. Signal problems too, weather-related.

My county's been out of salt now for the last two storms.
I think we are out of pothole filler to. Don't get me wrong, I like testing my car's emergency handling, but not on every drive.

Damn roads.

[Danke]

Yes, we should have unfettered immigration. And let China, India, etc. set up shop here and import their workers from abroad.

[UtahApocalypse]

What i don't understand is in West Michigan we also are running short on salt......

..... even though most of the past 2 months it has been below the effective temperature for salt to have any effect.

[donnay]

Solution: Eliminate the Jones Act and you don't have the problem of government being there.

Until another government law is enacted. I am sure it is sitting on the backburner, like the Patriot Act was. If you think for one moment repealing the Jones Act will lesson government involvement, you're serious deluded.

[eduardo89]

Until another government law is enacted. I am sure it is sitting on the backburner, like the Patriot Act was. If you think for one moment repealing the Jones Act will lesson government involvement, you're serious deluded.

So your objection to repealing a crony capitalist law is "the government might make another law."

Just admit it, you don't want the Jones Act repealed because it personally benefits you financially. It's ok if it does, just don't pretend you don't want it to remain in place for other reasons. You support the free market, except when government intervention benefits you.

[gwax23]

IMO keep the Jones act as is, but permanently exempt AK, HI and PR. Expedite emergency waivers as needed like the rock salt. There is still value in keeping shipping within the US done by US ships and crews.

So we should let those states get preferential treatment by having cheaper goods and services at the expense of all other states having to pay more?

[eduardo89]

So we should let those states get preferential treatment by having cheaper goods and services at the expense of all other states having to pay more?

It would be a good start since those states are hardest hit by the negative effects of the Jones Act, but full repeal should be the goal of anyone who supports free markets.

[69360]

So we should let those states get preferential treatment by having cheaper goods and services at the expense of all other states having to pay more?

It's not preferential. Logistically it's impractical for them to comply. They were not states at the time the Jones act was passed, so it was never intended to apply to them. It would likely get their cost closer to the contus, but they would still pay more.

[Danke]

"Most countries enact cabotage laws for reasons of economic protectionism, national security, or public safety. Renowned economist Adam Smith noted in chapter two of An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations that “when some particular sort of industry is necessary for the defence of the country” then it will “generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign, for the encouragement of domestic industry,” citing specifically to England’s acts of navigation, which “very properly endeavour to give the sailors and shipping of Great Britain the monopoly of the trade of their own country.” “As defence, however, is of much more importance than opulence, the act of navigation is, perhaps, the wisest of all the commercial regulations in England,” said Smith in Wealth of Nations."

[specsaregood]

I think we are out of pothole filler to. Don't get me wrong, I like testing my car's emergency handling, but not on every drive.

Damn roads.

If not for some quick evasive maneuvers my car might have disappeared into an abyss of a pothole in front of wegmans this weekend.

[eduardo89]

It's not preferential. Logistically it's impractical for them to comply. They were not states at the time the Jones act was passed, so it was never intended to apply to them. It would likely get their cost closer to the contus, but they would still pay more.

Wrong, the Jones Act applies exactly the same to states and territories:


No merchandise, including merchandise owned by the United States Government, a State (as defined in section 2101 of title 46, United States Code), or a subdivision of a State, shall be transported by water, or by land and water, on penalty of forfeiture of the merchandise (or a monetary amount up to the value thereof as determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, or the actual cost of the transportation, whichever is greater, to be recovered from any consignor, seller, owner, importer, consignee, agent, or other person or persons so transporting or causing said merchandise to be transported), between points in the United States, including Districts, Territories, and possessions thereof embraced within the coastwise laws, either directly or via a foreign port, or for any part of the transportation, in any other vessel than a vessel built in and documented under the laws of the United States and owned by persons who are citizens of the United States

http://www.upa.pdx.edu/IMS/currentprojects/TAHv3/Content/PDFs/Jones_Act_1920.pdf

[69360]

Wrong, the Jones Act applies exactly the same to states and territories:

No, my point is AK and HI were not states when the Jones act passed. They weren't exactly highly populated states with extensive trade in 1920, more like backwaters that were more self sufficient. Nobody could have predicted statehood and modern major cities in remote locations in 1920. The Jones act is presently impractical for them and they should be exempt. It still works for contus, no reason we should give away American jobs.

[gwax23]

It's not preferential. Logistically it's impractical for them to comply. They were not states at the time the Jones act was passed, so it was never intended to apply to them. It would likely get their cost closer to the contus, but they would still pay more.

You still dont address how its immoral for the government to artificially inflate the cost of all goods transported by sea because they want to protect a politically well connected industry.


"Most countries enact cabotage laws for reasons of economic protectionism, national security, or public safety. Renowned economist Adam Smith noted in chapter two of An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations that “when some particular sort of industry is necessary for the defence of the country” then it will “generally be advantageous to lay some burden upon foreign, for the encouragement of domestic industry,” citing specifically to England’s acts of navigation, which “very properly endeavour to give the sailors and shipping of Great Britain the monopoly of the trade of their own country.” “As defence, however, is of much more importance than opulence, the act of navigation is, perhaps, the wisest of all the commercial regulations in England,” said Smith in Wealth of Nations."

Adam Smith was wrong on this matter and several other areas. How does forcing all ships that want to deliver goods to the US be US ships help anyone beyond the politically well connect interests that created the law?

This law creates no jobs. For the few jobs it saves it costs countless more on net. It forces everyone to pay more and leads to shortages in times of need.

Why anyone who claims to support Liberty would favor this law is beyond me. The economic nationalism and economic illiteracy exhibited in this thread is appalling. You cant be a supporter of free markets or capitalism while blatantly advocating for bigger government control and protectionism. Protectionism doesnt work, it doesnt create or protect jobs, it destroys them and raises the costs for everything. It only benefits the crony capitalists who were able to successfully lobby and fool people into believing the policy is in their best interest.

[Tod]

I got stuck by the Jones Act once, back in the 80's. Congress had to grant my company a waiver all because I checked a wrong box on some an application from the Coast Guard for a hull id number/documentation. The waiver was tacked on to the Savings and Loan Bailout Bill.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=19890813&id=3D1QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BQ4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=2617,4816626

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c101:H.R.2652:


Actually, what happened was we bought some steel from a Canadian steel company, Niagara Steel, because they were the only supplier we could find with the steel we needed in 10' wide sheets. In buying it from them, we had them use their (at that time very modern) CNC burn table to cut out a bunch of pieces - mostly bulkheads - to their finished shape.

On the application for a HIN, I checked a box that asked if any of the boat was fabricated outside the US, never thinking that the Jones Act would be applicable since the boat was built on the banks of the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland. The dang Coast Guard guy at the 9th District wouldn't let me change the checkmark. What really burned me up is that these guys had inspected the boat and knew darn well where it was built. Damn bureaucrats.

[gwax23]

No, my point is AK and HI were not states when the Jones act passed. They weren't exactly highly populated states with extensive trade in 1920, more like backwaters that were more self sufficient. Nobody could have predicted statehood and modern major cities in remote locations in 1920. The Jones act is presently impractical for them and they should be exempt. It still works for contus, no reason we should give away American jobs.

Works for contus? Whats your definition of works? Shortages? Higher Prices? Lost jobs? It doesnt work at all its a complete disaster like all other government programs. The fact that certain states werent states when this law was passed is irrelevant. This law effects everyone negatively and for that reason and countless others (morally) should be ended.

Theres no reason New Jersey should be facing a salt shortage because the economic illiterate think this act creates jobs. If this act creates jobs then lets pass a law that says Americans can only buy American made goods. Thatll get you jobs alright...

[eduardo89]

Adam Smith was wrong on this matter and several other areas. How does forcing all ships that want to deliver goods to the US be US ships help anyone beyond the politically well connect interests that created the law?

It's a handout to the US shipbuilding industry and a handout to US shipping companies.

Forcing every ship that travels between two US ports to be built in the US is nothing more than crony capitalism.

[gwax23]

It's a handout to the US shipbuilding industry and a handout to US shipping companies.

Forcing every ship that travels between two US ports to be built in the US is nothing more than crony capitalism.

Exactly. Crony Capitalism comes in many forms but this has to be one of the most obvious and blatant forms of it, yet people still fail to see it.

They are so confused that they think getting rid of this law and letting free competition in the shipping industry, would mean giving in to the crony capitalists....

[eduardo89]

Exactly. Crony Capitalism comes in many forms but this has to be one of the most obvious and blatant forms of it, yet people still fail to see it.

Or some are completely aware of it being crony capitalism but benefit from it financially so don't want to see it repealed.

[gwax23]

Or some are completely aware of it being crony capitalism but benefit from it financially so don't want to see it repealed.

Very true. I was naive to think people on these forums wouldnt fall into that group.

[pcosmar]

So,,

Where are these American ships?

And why is it so hard for a bureaucrat to issue a waiver when there is a legitimate need to do so?

and on a side note,, why was there not near enough salt on hand for winter?

It comes around, like , every year.

[donnay]

So your objection to repealing a crony capitalist law is "the government might make another law."

Just admit it, you don't want the Jones Act repealed because it personally benefits you financially. It's ok if it does, just don't pretend you don't want it to remain in place for other reasons. You support the free market, except when government intervention benefits you.

My objection is that, for now, the Jones Act is a protection for those in the industry. Until more people wake up to the idea of a truly free market, repealing the Jones Act just allows more outsourcing of jobs. And it is also another blow to our sovereignty.

[eduardo89]

My objection is that, for now, the Jones Act is a protection for those in the industry.

So you support crony capitalism.

[gwax23]

My objection is that, for now, the Jones Act is a protection for those in the industry. Until more people wake up to the idea of a truly free market, repealing the Jones Act just allows more outsourcing of jobs. And it is also another blow to our sovereignty.

What about the unseen consequences of the law? How about all the jobs that have never been created because of the law? The reason jobs are being outsourced is the regulation. You cant fight regulation with regulation.

[specsaregood]

And it is also another blow to our sovereignty.

This is where we get into some disagreements around these parts. A great many of the Libertarians don't like the notion of a USA, don't want to do anything to protect it or benefit its citizens. Probably many that want to further anything that will hasten its self-destruction.

[donnay]

So you support crony capitalism.

No crony capitalists want to repeal it.

[eduardo89]

No crony capitalists want to repeal it.

Crony capitalists want to repeal a law that guarantees them work in shipbuilding and guaranteed business transporting cargo within the US instead of having to compete against foreign ships. Right.

[gwax23]

This is where we get into some disagreements around these parts. A great many of the Libertarians don't like the notion of a USA, don't want to do anything to protect it or benefit its citizens. Probably many that want to further anything that will hasten its self-destruction.

Im not an anarchist. Why does being against stupid laws like the Jones Act make one unAmerican or anti US or against its citizens? The exact opposite I care for the people, while you support laws that benefit a small well connected minority.

Again you have everything ass backwards.

[specsaregood]

Im not an anarchist. Why does being against stupid laws like the Jones Act make one unAmerican or anti US or against its citizens? The exact opposite I care for the people, while you support laws that benefit a small well connected minority.

Again you have everything ass backwards.

Good for you; many here are and so I've learned to take that into account when considering their positions. We simply disagree about the effect of the policies in question. I hear that giant sucking sound, although it seems about almost done at this point.

[eduardo89]

Im not an anarchist. Why does being against stupid laws like the Jones Act make one unAmerican or anti US or against its citizens? The exact opposite I care for the people, while you support laws that benefit a small well connected minority.

Again you have everything ass backwards.

If they only benefited a small minority I wouldn't be so against it, but the fact is it not just benefits a small minority it also hurts virtually every American who pay higher costs on the goods they produce and consume!!

[Danke]

DOes anyone believe government should be funded?

If so, how?

Internal taxation (very invasive) of external taxation (i.e. Tariffs, etc.).

Without jobs, very few benefit in the long run from temporarily lowered costs.

[donnay]

Crony capitalists want to repeal a law that guarantees them work in shipbuilding and guaranteed business transporting cargo within the US instead of having to compete against foreign ships. Right.

Crony Capitalist wants to open the door to multinationalism--that's the neocon policy initiatives. Cutting big spending costs by cutting shipping costs for big corporations by outsourcing our shipping.


"If we did not have the Jones Act, cargo preference, the MSP program and Voluntary Intermodal Sealift Agreement (VISA) programs, I can assure you that it is unlikely that ships would remain under the U.S. flag. And the U.S.-citizen mariner pool needed for the Department of Defense in times of national emergency or war would simply disappear."

2002, Capt. William Schubert, U.S. Maritime Administrator testifying before the House Armed Services Committee

[Danke]

Yes, we should have unfettered immigration. And let China, India, etc. set up shop here and import their workers from abroad.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4zyjLyBp64

[gwax23]

DOes anyone believe government should be funded?

If so, how?

Internal taxation (very invasive) of external taxation (i.e. Tariffs, etc.).

Without jobs, very few benefit in the long run from temporarily lowered costs.

A poll tax or head tax would be preferable to protectionist tariffs. User fees even better.

[specsaregood]

Without jobs, very few benefit in the long run from temporarily lowered costs.

I suspect that dropping protective tariffs has been an effort to prop up and continue the status of the petrodollar. With the petrodollar in place there has been a continual NEED for dollars world wide. Protective tariffs would have kept it more difficult for international markets to get those dollars (that they needed in order to buy oil). If you kept it difficult to get those dollars and thus oil; many more countries would have revolted and demanded a change in OPEC to start transacting in non US currency. Instead we dropped the protectionist policies, flooding the world with US currency ensuring not too many countries complained about its status and the few that did were easily handled by our military.

Why work or have jobs when the dollars status is the greatest welfare system on the planet?

[eduardo89]

Crony Capitalist wants to open the door to multinationalism--that's the neocon policy initiatives. Cutting big spending costs by cutting shipping costs for big corporations by outsourcing our shipping.

Oh those evil multinationals. How dare they do business in more than one country!!

[Danke]

A poll tax or head tax would be preferable to protectionist tariffs. User fees even better.

So if I don't vote, no tax? A head tax? You mean a direct tax on everyone?

[eduardo89]

So if I don't vote, no tax? A head tax? You mean a direct tax on everyone?

Poll tax doesn't necessarily mean a tax to vote. Poll tax and head tax are interchangeable terms.

[Danke]

Poll tax doesn't necessarily mean a tax to vote. Poll tax and head tax are interchangeable terms.

I know, but that is a modern usage of it.

http://www.losthorizons.com/PostMemo.pdf

[Danke]

Kill The Middle Class, Kill The Nation
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/02.14/middleclass.html

[pcosmar]

A poll tax or head tax would be preferable to protectionist tariffs. User fees even better.

I vote for a tip jar,, and severe penalties for elected officials accepting any gifts.

[gwax23]

So if I don't vote, no tax? A head tax? You mean a direct tax on everyone?

Why should people who dont pay a tax vote to impose more taxes and spending on people who do pay taxes? A direct tax means people have a personal incentive to keep it lower, if the tax is indirect they would easily vote for more increases in it.

[Danke]

Why should people who dont pay a tax vote to impose more taxes and spending on people who do pay taxes? A direct tax means people have a personal incentive to keep it lower, if the tax is indirect they would easily vote for more increases in it.

Correct. A direct tax is via apportionment. We don't have a direct tax for the very reasons you just stated. That is why it was put in the Constitution that way.

[gwax23]

Correct. A direct tax is via apportionment. We don't have a direct tax for the very reasons you just stated. That is why it was put in the Constitution that way.

Oh well if we are going to talk within the constitution/federal level then maybe a flat percentage of the states revenue would be better. A state collects X amount in revenue from taxes tariffs etc. The Federal government gets 1% of it.

[NIU Students for Liberty]

For fuck's sake, Hazlitt covered this shit in Layman's terms nearly 70 years ago. To the protectionists here, read a book:

http://mises.org/document/6785/Economics-in-One-Lesson

[69360]

For fuck's sake, Hazlitt covered this shit in Layman's terms nearly 70 years ago. To the protectionists here, read a book:

http://mises.org/document/6785/Economics-in-One-Lesson

Why? I can form my own opinion.

In some circumstances protectionism is a good thing. I think we all know damn well if it wasn't for the Jones act, very few merchant ships would be US flagged. Maybe if the world was a different place and everyone embraced free trade we wouldn't need the Jones act to keep jobs and money in the US. But it isn't and we currently do. I'm all for changes in it to help non-contus states and territories and emergency waivers in cases like are the right thing to do.

Kind of funny but I just found out that the salt in question is sitting on a dock 10 miles from here.

[gwax23]

Why? I can form my own opinion.

In some circumstances protectionism is a good thing. I think we all know damn well if it wasn't for the Jones act, very few merchant ships would be US flagged. Maybe if the world was a different place and everyone embraced free trade we wouldn't need the Jones act to keep jobs and money in the US. But it isn't and we currently do. I'm all for changes in it to help non-contus states and territories and emergency waivers in cases like are the right thing to do.

Kind of funny but I just found out that the salt in question is sitting on a dock 10 miles from here.

No ones stopping you from having uneducated opinions. But people are free to pointlessly try to educate you.

You claim protectionism is a good thing in some circumstances but fail to name what those are.

You claim if it wasnt for the jones act "Very few merchant ships would be US flagged" even if that is true why is that a bad thing? Job wise people can work on any ships....Though why you would force people to pay more for for goods and services just to see American flags is beyond the realm of logic...

If I own a foreign flagged ship and I want to dock in someones port to unload goods and the owner of the port agrees then this is a perfectly voluntary and legal action. Why should this be a crime? Why do you want to make this a crime? Your a blatant statist if you want to use the government to outlaw voluntary interactions between parties.

Then you keep repeating this ignorant fallacy that has made the rounds on this thread that since we dont live in a perfect free market we should just give up on pursuing free markets. This ridiculous proposition if taken to its logical conclusions would mean we would become a wholly state run economy. Just because one area or more of the economy is not free does not mean we should be content to have the rest of the economy less free to "equalize" things. Nor do the laws of economics change just because one area of the economy is regulated.

The fact that you admit the salt is 10 miles from you yet a shortage is a problem illustrates the absurdity of this stupid law you have wasted your time defending in the name of....flags? Your fine with making changes to the laws to try to cover up its obvious failings but refuse to admit it should be repealed in its entirety because....you dont even say. Its an indirect admission that you recognize the law is a failure.

The jones act does not create jobs it destroys them. The sooner you learn this the sooner you can formulate your own opinion which is based on facts and reality instead of ignorance and lies.

[specsaregood]

For fuck's sake, Hazlitt covered this shit in Layman's terms nearly 70 years ago. To the protectionists here, read a book:

http://mises.org/document/6785/Economics-in-One-Lesson
Can you point out for me the chapter that discusses protectionism in an environment where the country enacting protectionist policies has a global fiat currency that can be printed at will without decreasing demand?

[pcosmar]

The Federal government gets 1% of it.

Why?
If they don't have any money they will have NO Money to Spend.

The federal government does not need to spend money,, nor to provide "services"
Their only purpose should be as a mediator and facilitator between the states and a contact point for foreign nations.

Election to office should be a service to society,, not a damn career.

[pcosmar]

Why? I can form my own opinion.

In some circumstances protectionism is a good thing. I think we all know damn well if it wasn't for the Jones act, very few merchant ships would be US flagged.

Very few are.
In fact. 191 ships are presently.
Damn few.
http://www.americanmaritime.org/merchant/

According to statistics as compiled by the US Maritime Administration, in 1955 there were 1,072 vessels sailing internationally flying the US Flag. Currently, this number stands at 93 vessels while the Jones Act component of the US ocean- going fleet is 98. Some of this drop represents the increased size of the vessels of today. (the 1,072 ships in 1955 combined for approximately 13 million deadweight tons while the current US Flag fleet of 191 ships represent 9 million deadweight tons). Overall, in 1955, the US Flag fleet represented almost 25% of the world’s overall tonnage while the US share today is approaching only a mere 2% of total world tonnage.

2% of the worlds shipping.

Yeah,, working out real well. :rolleyes:

[pcosmar]

The only thing I would keep from the Jones Act,, the only thing of value,, is the section on Seaman's Rights.

It needs revision,, and most of it could be shit canned.

[69360]

No ones stopping you from having uneducated opinions. But people are free to pointlessly try to educate you.

You claim protectionism is a good thing in some circumstances but fail to name what those are.

You claim if it wasnt for the jones act "Very few merchant ships would be US flagged" even if that is true why is that a bad thing? Job wise people can work on any ships....Though why you would force people to pay more for for goods and services just to see American flags is beyond the realm of logic...

If I own a foreign flagged ship and I want to dock in someones port to unload goods and the owner of the port agrees then this is a perfectly voluntary and legal action. Why should this be a crime? Why do you want to make this a crime? Your a blatant statist if you want to use the government to outlaw voluntary interactions between parties.

Then you keep repeating this ignorant fallacy that has made the rounds on this thread that since we dont live in a perfect free market we should just give up on pursuing free markets. This ridiculous proposition if taken to its logical conclusions would mean we would become a wholly state run economy. Just because one area or more of the economy is not free does not mean we should be content to have the rest of the economy less free to "equalize" things. Nor do the laws of economics change just because one area of the economy is regulated.

The fact that you admit the salt is 10 miles from you yet a shortage is a problem illustrates the absurdity of this stupid law you have wasted your time defending in the name of....flags? Your fine with making changes to the laws to try to cover up its obvious failings but refuse to admit it should be repealed in its entirety because....you dont even say. Its an indirect admission that you recognize the law is a failure.

The jones act does not create jobs it destroys them. The sooner you learn this the sooner you can formulate your own opinion which is based on facts and reality instead of ignorance and lies.

Passive aggressively inferring that somebody is uneducated because their opinion differs is not a way to win an argument.

Compromises are ok. If you didn't notice, we don't live in a libertarian utopia.

[vita3]

Remember when GWB tried to sell out our ports to UAE/Dubai?

Got to control some thing.

[eduardo89]

Remember when GWB tried to sell out our ports to UAE/Dubai?

Got to control some thing.

That was one of the most absurd scandals. The Dubai-based company wanted to buy a British company (Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company) that had was already managing 6 US ports. They weren't going to buy the ports, they were going to take over another foreign company that had contracts to manage US ports. The ports were never for sale and they were already managed by a foreign company.

And even if they were going to buy the ports, it's not like they can just bring in foreign workers. Americans would keep those jobs. And it's not like they can pack up the port and take it to Dubai...

[oyarde]

The problems with the trains in this area (NJ/NYC-metro) is the bridges... constantly freezing and icing up, so ice checks hold up the trains for hours, sometimes. Signal problems too, weather-related.

My county's been out of salt now for the last two storms.
My county ran out once , then got some more , but I imagine they are slightly over budget on overtime , salt and fuel.I guess I can understand the signal problems in some of this years temps .Makes sense to me .

[oyarde]

I think we are out of pothole filler to. Don't get me wrong, I like testing my car's emergency handling, but not on every drive.

Damn roads.

The city nearest me normally has one truck working on potholes ea day , they are going to two crews now , no mowing to be done yet so they just use the guys they already have. Pretty tough job really , the suck up leaves all fall , into winter , plow snow , fix potholes , maintain the equipment , mow all day when the weather is nice and are nowhere near anyplace to take a break to get something to drink etc .They do get pd well, but they earn it . I doubt I would want that job when the bottom drops out of the mercury , but I would take it if I needed it . Just have to live in the coveralls all winter and try and find a pr of boots that may keep your feet warm . Buddy of mine works there and he works part time for me.

[Root]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YMvLNxpkYU#t=11

[Anti Federalist]

Very few are.
In fact. 191 ships are presently.
Damn few.
http://www.americanmaritime.org/merchant/


2% of the worlds shipping.

Yeah,, working out real well. :rolleyes:

Actually Pete, those numbers are way low, they represent ships only.

Those numbers do not reflect the tens of thousands of supply vessels, IMR vessels, tugs, barges, ATBs and other vessels in US flag service.

That new vessel of mine, and all her sisters, are not included in that list.

The US Merchant Marine is booming, actually, fueled by offshore oil drilling and exploration.

Fresh mates out of the maritime colleges are making $500 a day, even more as they transfer to the DP drillships.

Which are foreign flagged and built, but are US crewed.

Which is basically the same policy as any other maritime nation.

[Anti Federalist]

We know the reason you support this economically damaging law is because your husband depends on it for his livelihood. I guess you support freeing up the market, except when it affects your economic interests.

Cheap fucking shot there pal, but yeah, I'll fess up, sure, it plays a large role in my livelihood.

But so would have getting rid of Obama and Ken Salazar, but you didn't see me supporting Romney did you?

I am consistent, I am in favor of tariffs, (and Jones is nothing more than a form of tariff) as the least intrusive, least damaging, and therefore the only true constitutional means of taxation.

All those people that just voted down the union in TN at VW, the people making Corollas in KY and Accords in OH and Kias in Georgia are at work because of import tariffs on new automobiles.

And yes, I've heard all the arguments, and in the world the way it stands right now, they do not convince.

[pcosmar]

Actually Pete, those numbers are way low, they represent ships only.

Those numbers do not reflect the tens of thousands of supply vessels, IMR vessels, tugs, barges, ATBs and other vessels in US flag service.

That new vessel of mine, and all her sisters, are not included in that list.

The US Merchant Marine is booming, actually, fueled by offshore oil drilling and exploration.

Fresh mates out of the maritime colleges are making $500 a day, even more as they transfer to the DP drillships.

Which are foreign flagged and built, but are US crewed.

Which is basically the same policy as any other maritime nation.

True enough, My brother was (is) Merchant Marine. I grew up on a refueling dock (that is not there anymore).

And as I said,,there are some parts of the Act that could be kept,,(are actually of value), but mostly it is a hindrance. As this case demonstrates.

and barges cannot move the tonnage that a bulk carrier can.. nor as quickly.

I still don't understand why a waiver could not have been issued in the absence of any US Ships available.

[Anti Federalist]

I still don't understand why a waiver could not have been issued in the absence of any US Ships available.

Actually, it can, and happens all the time.

I suspect there is not another hull available, foreign or US flagged.

ETA-Reading through this story, it sounds like maybe the O-bomb-ya administration playing some "Saltgate" with Christie.

A waiver with the vessel sitting at the dock in Searsport would have been a normal, routine exchange of paperwork.

That said, a tug and barge could make it from Searsport to Elizabeth in three - four days, tops.

I know, I've done it. ;)

[donnay]

//

[oyarde]

Actually, it can, and happens all the time.

I suspect there is not another hull available, foreign or US flagged.

ETA-Reading through this story, it sounds like maybe the O-bomb-ya administration playing some "Saltgate" with Christie.

A waiver with the vessel sitting at the dock in Searsport would have been a normal, routine exchange of paperwork.

That said, a tug and barge could make it from Searsport to Elizabeth in three - four days, tops.

I know, I've done it. ;)
I am thinking there is some saltgate here as well . Dems could set NJ on fire and still win Senate elections so they have nothing to lose.