Tobias2dope
11-30-2007, 02:10 AM
I help with a church youth group and work with the Youth Pastor at the church, I was browsing "myspace" and ran into a Blog he made about the War, which got on my nerves a bit, so I decided to reply. Sorry if it's long and tedious, but you can't post html in the original so it might be hard to follow with simple text.
I just thought maybe someone would like to see what some Pastors think
He knows I support Ron Paul already.
The Reason For War
Category: Life
This weekend I had a conference youth all nighter. As a part of that evening we held a round table discussion on the war in Iraq. It was very interesting to hear the rhetoric that MTV has spewed forth onto our kids; war was for oil, we should be out now, too many people are dead, they have their own govt.
Some of these points are tragic, yet in the course of the evening there was some real wisdom from the 'mouth of babes'. I asked the teens, "what is the purpose of our being in Iraq?" 1 teen (maybe 15) lifted her hand and said, "we are there to defend people who can't yet defend themselves".
What made this so profound is that we had just asked how or if we who are Christians should be supportive of this effort. In Isaiah we are told to, "defend the orphans and plead the case of the widows". In short - we are to stand in the gap for people who can't fight for themselves.
How long? Until the threat is eliminated.
Do you know that we still have soldiers in every major arena of battle of the 20th century. When the dems scream, bring them home - they act as if we havent spent 60 years in germany and japan...50 years in korea and 15 years in saudi arabia.
In fact - the only major theater of operations that we pulled out of was veitnam.
and by some estimates - our leaving cost millions of lives...
Way to stand in the gap America...
MY FIRST RESPONSE
First, when did MTV spew it's rhetoric, I don't watch it, neither should you, but I have no evidence of MTV telling little kids that we're in Iraq for oil, we can blame them for the garbage the play or the dumb perverted shows that's enough. Maybe some band members say that, but I see it as a cheap shot to blame this on MTV because the average Christian would agree because they don't like MTV anyway.
"Too many people are dead?
"we are there to defend people who can't yet defend themselves".
US Killed 3876
wounded 30,327
not to mention 20,000 Unlisted brain injuries no counted by the pentagon
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20071123/1a_lede23.art.htm
Iraq Casualties
Lancett Estimate over 600,000 back in October 2006
http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-10-11-iraq-study_x.htm
Opinion Research Business estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US invasion. http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/counterexplanation.html
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ says about 80,000 based on media reporting deaths
and Health Minister estimated 150,000 civilians based on dead in morgues
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111000164.html
4 Million Iraqis have been displaced by violence in their country
http://www.refugeesinternational.org/content/article/detail/9679
That is not MTV Rhetoric
"we are there to defend people who can't yet defend themselves" applied to this situation
is not exactly from the mouth of babes, because she was obviously taught that by her parents or something.
"defend the orphans and plead the case of the widows" I can't stress that our actions have MADE an innumerable amount of orphans and widows. And not helped them, I don't recall hearing about windows and orphans in Iraq pre-war.
"we are to stand in the gap for people who can't fight for themselves."
Who is we? we as Christians? Christians are not running America, judging by the fact that we have abborted 48,589,993 of our own babies. Any injustices being done around the world should come second to American problems, we need to clean house here first. And since we as a nation are in debt 9 Trillion dollars We really can't afford to go and do these things, and borrow 3 billion a day from places like China. Christianity does not condone Preemptive war. And not to mention that according to a number of polls and surveys over 70% of Americans want us out of Iraq.
I am aware of our occupation of other countries we should pull out of there as well, what a bad investment of our time and resources. Tell me who estimates that us leaving will cost Millions of lives? The Same people who said iraq would be easy? And even if you say it would be a catastrophy to leave only strengthens the fact we shouldn't have been their meddling in the first place.
They found no WMD's which was the catalyst for the Iraq War
Now they say that Iran is has WMD's
The Same War Mongers Want the war to spill into Iran, Colin Powell just said about a week ago that that Iran has no Nuclear Weapons and isn't close to it,
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hhx_TURxlqOeQdTUoILUjNdi2mRQD8T0J8400
The CIA said the same thing, and yet "a nuclear first strike" is not off the table
It's not just anti Bush Democrats that want us out of Iraq because they hate bush, in fact Hillary wants to stay in Iraq as well, so there are Democrats who are agaist the war out of convenience.
way too much info to keep going, sorry it's been so long but I've barely Scratched the surface.
~Tobias
HIS FIRST RESPONSE
When referring to the MTV generation - this does not apply Tobias to you. By saying MTV - I am not saying that each person who believed the way that they did only did so because of MTV - I am implying that the mentality that fuels the MTV rhetoric is what caused those kids to speak talking points that could not stand a direct challenge. Yes I do call them liberal talking points...and I acknowledge that not only liberals believe them.
So to directly address your points:
1. How many people died pre invasion? How many did Sadaam Hussein kill in obvious human rights violations. How many died in his illegal war with Kuwait and also with Iran? How many were tortured, abused, maimed? How many more mass graves are going to have to be found before someone like yourself would have to come to the conclusion that the direction that Iraq is heading now is a much better direction than pre invasion?
2. Why can't you give her that she came up with that herself? The question posed to the young lady was, what should the christian response to the war be? She brought back the issue that we as Christians should be defending the cause of the widow and the orphan. I think it a fair assessment to say that we are doing that in Iraq right now as the only think standing between the innocents and the enemy is the army. If I as a believe in Christ support the troops in their mission - are they not acting on my behalf? In short, am I not involved in the fight with them?
3. We havent helped them? Sheesh Tobey - dont they have free elections now. Arent they formulating their own govt - constitution - oil sharing plan - alliances - infastructure - individual rights etc et al? How do you look past this?
4. Pre emptive war not condoned? I'd like you to answer for me why the israelites were ordered to kill all of the inhabitants of Canaan as they came into the land. LET me help you - it is because God knew that the people would corrupt the israelites so he ordered their COMPLETE AND TOTAL DESTRUCTION! Sounds like pre emprive war to me.
Look man - your thoughts are well presented - yet I cant agree. Field these questions - and lets see where this goes.
MY SECOND RESPONSE
"1. How many people died pre invasion? How many did Sadaam Hussein kill in obvious human rights violations. How many died in his illegal war with Kuwait and also with Iran? How many were tortured, abused, maimed? How many more mass graves are going to have to be found before someone like yourself would have to come to the conclusion that the direction that Iraq is heading now is a much better direction than pre invasion?"
__________________________________________________ ____________
First of all why are you talking about illegal wars in Kuwait and Iran, when YOU want AMERICA to engage in Illegal wars with Iraq and Iran?
How many died from Sanctions and Bombings in Iraq for over 10 years?
300 child deaths every day
2000 children dying for every coalition soldier killed
Since US invasions 2 million of the Iraq victims have been children.
according to http://www.coia.org.uk/
http://books.google.com/books?id=B74HkM07HkIC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=%22300+child+deaths%22&source=web&ots=KP39xL2-N3&sig=ZlgUJj50jpyG5J84q5bZntTekBI
Madeleine Albright on 60 minutes - "Worth It":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK_QshS2EW8
Effects of Depleted Uranium: The health impacts of the use of depleted uranium weaponry in Iraq are yet to be known. The Pentagon estimates that U.S. and British forces used 1,100 to 2,200 tons of weaponry made from the toxic and radioactive metal during the March 2003 bombing campaign. Many scientists blame the far smaller amount of DU weapons used in the Persian Gulf War for illnesses among U.S. soldiers, as well as a sevenfold increase in child birth defects in Basra in southern Iraq.
WATCH THIS VIDEO ABOUT DEPLETED URANIUM :
http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html
__________________________________
"2. Why can't you give her that she came up with that herself? The question posed to the young lady was, what should the christian response to the war be? She brought back the issue that we as Christians should be defending the cause of the widow and the orphan. I think it a fair assessment to say that we are doing that in Iraq right now as the only think standing between the innocents and the enemy is the army. If I as a believe in Christ support the troops in their mission - are they not acting on my behalf? In short, am I not involved in the fight with them?"
______________________________________
You quoted her as saying "we are there to defend people who can't yet defend themselves" Unless she said so, I doubt she thought of windows and orphans, all her statement implied is that "we're defending Iraqis", and in Christian pop culture it's the same vague rhetoric that is being taught with not much base at all; she was just repeating what she heard, it's really not hard to believe because I've heard it before. This is speculation on my part having not been there in person.
We keep spending hundreds of billions on an overseas war which we have no moral or legal right to be involved in, to "defend the cause of the widow and the orphan"? In truth it has been demonstrated beyond doubt that we are CREATING orphans and widows, and killing them too. Why do we not defend the innocent children being ripped apart in their mother's wombs in America? 4,000 American children are slain EVERY DAY, and fake Christians and politicians won't lift a finger or raise their voice against this wickedness, yet will happily and openly advocate an illegal and murderous war which they will NEVER see, all from the comfort of their La-Z-Boy.
I pray for the troops safety, for them to come home where they belong, and also for the innocent. I believe your prayers about their "Mission" are ineffective and vague. The troops are NOT acting on your behalf, they take their marching orders from the US government alone.
_________________________
"3. We havent helped them? Sheesh Tobey - dont they have free elections now. Arent they formulating their own govt - constitution - oil sharing plan - alliances - infastructure - individual rights etc et al? How do you look past this?"
__________________________________________________
Wow, that's like cutting the limbs off of a little puppy and then throwing it a bone. And what sense does it make to "Give another country individual rights", but we suspend habeus corpus, while The Patriot Act took a dump on our Bill of Rights. Also if you hated Iraq under Saddam, don't forget who put him in power.
__________________________
"4. Pre emptive war not condoned? I'd like you to answer for me why the israelites were ordered to kill all of the inhabitants of Canaan as they came into the land. LET me help you - it is because God knew that the people would corrupt the israelites so he ordered their COMPLETE AND TOTAL DESTRUCTION! Sounds like pre emprive war to me."
__________________________________________________ ____________
What you're failing to grasp is that GOD ALONE DECIDED to destroy Canaan because ONLY GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE:"Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God."
Are you seriously comparing a Theocratic Government directly ordered by God to exercise his divine judgement on entirely evil idol-worshipers, as justification for Christians to engage in Preemptive war? The only thing that tells me is that ONLY God could make a judgement call like that. Not only is America not in the slightest equivalent to God's Chosen People B.C., you still have the problem of God ignoring nations due to their own sin:
Isaiah 1:15
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood
Psalm 44:9-11
9 But now you have rejected and humbled us;
you no longer go out with our armies.
10 You made us retreat before the enemy,
and our adversaries have plundered us.
11 You gave us up to be devoured like sheep
and have scattered us among the nations.
Deuteronomy 1:41-42
41 Then you replied, "We have sinned against the LORD. We will go up and fight, as the LORD our God commanded us." So every one of you put on his weapons, thinking it easy to go up into the hill country.
42 But the LORD said to me, "Tell them, 'Do not go up and fight, because I will not be with you. You will be defeated by your enemies."
Numbers 14:42-44
42 Do not go up, because the LORD is not with you. You will be defeated by your enemies, 43 for the Amalekites and Canaanites will face you there. Because you have turned away from the LORD, he will not be with you and you will fall by the sword."
44 Nevertheless, in their presumption they went up toward the high hill country, though neither Moses nor the ark of the LORD's covenant moved from the camp.
America's hands are full of the innocent blood of their own sons and daughters. Do you think God can look upon our nation and bless it? And now we attack other nations and kill their sons and daughters, all in the name of "freedom"? What perverse thought processes must one go through to think such things? Do you honestly think that bombing other nations and killing their women and children is a legitimate way to share the gospel of Jesus Christ? Have you stopped to think of the faceless people in Iraq that, because of our actions, have further hardened themselves against Americans and Christians because their family members are being blown up. There is nothing in all of this that spreads the Gospel, in fact it's the exact opposite. This is so destructive to the message of peace and mercy. If you think I'm wrong , The IISS reported that al-Qaeda's recruitment and fundraising efforts had been given a major boost by the U.S. invasion of Iraq. The CIA calls this "Blowback" it's a very real concept. They don't attack us because "They hate freedom", that's stupid. Listen to the CIA, listen to your enemy.
Jesus is "The Prince of Peace", and said things like "blessed are the peace makers" at the Sermon on the Mount
James 3:17-18
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
Hebrews 12:13-15
14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many
1 Timothy 2
1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
So I'll say again Christians do not Condone Preemptive War, They don't advocate war in general, that's why there is Just War Doctrine that lays out extreme conditions for war, because it's a last resort.
_______________________________
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing that it seeks to destroy."
- Martin Luther King, Jr
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or
that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1953
Peace out yall, and let me know if I misrepresented anything
I just thought maybe someone would like to see what some Pastors think
He knows I support Ron Paul already.
The Reason For War
Category: Life
This weekend I had a conference youth all nighter. As a part of that evening we held a round table discussion on the war in Iraq. It was very interesting to hear the rhetoric that MTV has spewed forth onto our kids; war was for oil, we should be out now, too many people are dead, they have their own govt.
Some of these points are tragic, yet in the course of the evening there was some real wisdom from the 'mouth of babes'. I asked the teens, "what is the purpose of our being in Iraq?" 1 teen (maybe 15) lifted her hand and said, "we are there to defend people who can't yet defend themselves".
What made this so profound is that we had just asked how or if we who are Christians should be supportive of this effort. In Isaiah we are told to, "defend the orphans and plead the case of the widows". In short - we are to stand in the gap for people who can't fight for themselves.
How long? Until the threat is eliminated.
Do you know that we still have soldiers in every major arena of battle of the 20th century. When the dems scream, bring them home - they act as if we havent spent 60 years in germany and japan...50 years in korea and 15 years in saudi arabia.
In fact - the only major theater of operations that we pulled out of was veitnam.
and by some estimates - our leaving cost millions of lives...
Way to stand in the gap America...
MY FIRST RESPONSE
First, when did MTV spew it's rhetoric, I don't watch it, neither should you, but I have no evidence of MTV telling little kids that we're in Iraq for oil, we can blame them for the garbage the play or the dumb perverted shows that's enough. Maybe some band members say that, but I see it as a cheap shot to blame this on MTV because the average Christian would agree because they don't like MTV anyway.
"Too many people are dead?
"we are there to defend people who can't yet defend themselves".
US Killed 3876
wounded 30,327
not to mention 20,000 Unlisted brain injuries no counted by the pentagon
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20071123/1a_lede23.art.htm
Iraq Casualties
Lancett Estimate over 600,000 back in October 2006
http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-10-11-iraq-study_x.htm
Opinion Research Business estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US invasion. http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/counterexplanation.html
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ says about 80,000 based on media reporting deaths
and Health Minister estimated 150,000 civilians based on dead in morgues
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111000164.html
4 Million Iraqis have been displaced by violence in their country
http://www.refugeesinternational.org/content/article/detail/9679
That is not MTV Rhetoric
"we are there to defend people who can't yet defend themselves" applied to this situation
is not exactly from the mouth of babes, because she was obviously taught that by her parents or something.
"defend the orphans and plead the case of the widows" I can't stress that our actions have MADE an innumerable amount of orphans and widows. And not helped them, I don't recall hearing about windows and orphans in Iraq pre-war.
"we are to stand in the gap for people who can't fight for themselves."
Who is we? we as Christians? Christians are not running America, judging by the fact that we have abborted 48,589,993 of our own babies. Any injustices being done around the world should come second to American problems, we need to clean house here first. And since we as a nation are in debt 9 Trillion dollars We really can't afford to go and do these things, and borrow 3 billion a day from places like China. Christianity does not condone Preemptive war. And not to mention that according to a number of polls and surveys over 70% of Americans want us out of Iraq.
I am aware of our occupation of other countries we should pull out of there as well, what a bad investment of our time and resources. Tell me who estimates that us leaving will cost Millions of lives? The Same people who said iraq would be easy? And even if you say it would be a catastrophy to leave only strengthens the fact we shouldn't have been their meddling in the first place.
They found no WMD's which was the catalyst for the Iraq War
Now they say that Iran is has WMD's
The Same War Mongers Want the war to spill into Iran, Colin Powell just said about a week ago that that Iran has no Nuclear Weapons and isn't close to it,
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hhx_TURxlqOeQdTUoILUjNdi2mRQD8T0J8400
The CIA said the same thing, and yet "a nuclear first strike" is not off the table
It's not just anti Bush Democrats that want us out of Iraq because they hate bush, in fact Hillary wants to stay in Iraq as well, so there are Democrats who are agaist the war out of convenience.
way too much info to keep going, sorry it's been so long but I've barely Scratched the surface.
~Tobias
HIS FIRST RESPONSE
When referring to the MTV generation - this does not apply Tobias to you. By saying MTV - I am not saying that each person who believed the way that they did only did so because of MTV - I am implying that the mentality that fuels the MTV rhetoric is what caused those kids to speak talking points that could not stand a direct challenge. Yes I do call them liberal talking points...and I acknowledge that not only liberals believe them.
So to directly address your points:
1. How many people died pre invasion? How many did Sadaam Hussein kill in obvious human rights violations. How many died in his illegal war with Kuwait and also with Iran? How many were tortured, abused, maimed? How many more mass graves are going to have to be found before someone like yourself would have to come to the conclusion that the direction that Iraq is heading now is a much better direction than pre invasion?
2. Why can't you give her that she came up with that herself? The question posed to the young lady was, what should the christian response to the war be? She brought back the issue that we as Christians should be defending the cause of the widow and the orphan. I think it a fair assessment to say that we are doing that in Iraq right now as the only think standing between the innocents and the enemy is the army. If I as a believe in Christ support the troops in their mission - are they not acting on my behalf? In short, am I not involved in the fight with them?
3. We havent helped them? Sheesh Tobey - dont they have free elections now. Arent they formulating their own govt - constitution - oil sharing plan - alliances - infastructure - individual rights etc et al? How do you look past this?
4. Pre emptive war not condoned? I'd like you to answer for me why the israelites were ordered to kill all of the inhabitants of Canaan as they came into the land. LET me help you - it is because God knew that the people would corrupt the israelites so he ordered their COMPLETE AND TOTAL DESTRUCTION! Sounds like pre emprive war to me.
Look man - your thoughts are well presented - yet I cant agree. Field these questions - and lets see where this goes.
MY SECOND RESPONSE
"1. How many people died pre invasion? How many did Sadaam Hussein kill in obvious human rights violations. How many died in his illegal war with Kuwait and also with Iran? How many were tortured, abused, maimed? How many more mass graves are going to have to be found before someone like yourself would have to come to the conclusion that the direction that Iraq is heading now is a much better direction than pre invasion?"
__________________________________________________ ____________
First of all why are you talking about illegal wars in Kuwait and Iran, when YOU want AMERICA to engage in Illegal wars with Iraq and Iran?
How many died from Sanctions and Bombings in Iraq for over 10 years?
300 child deaths every day
2000 children dying for every coalition soldier killed
Since US invasions 2 million of the Iraq victims have been children.
according to http://www.coia.org.uk/
http://books.google.com/books?id=B74HkM07HkIC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=%22300+child+deaths%22&source=web&ots=KP39xL2-N3&sig=ZlgUJj50jpyG5J84q5bZntTekBI
Madeleine Albright on 60 minutes - "Worth It":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK_QshS2EW8
Effects of Depleted Uranium: The health impacts of the use of depleted uranium weaponry in Iraq are yet to be known. The Pentagon estimates that U.S. and British forces used 1,100 to 2,200 tons of weaponry made from the toxic and radioactive metal during the March 2003 bombing campaign. Many scientists blame the far smaller amount of DU weapons used in the Persian Gulf War for illnesses among U.S. soldiers, as well as a sevenfold increase in child birth defects in Basra in southern Iraq.
WATCH THIS VIDEO ABOUT DEPLETED URANIUM :
http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html
__________________________________
"2. Why can't you give her that she came up with that herself? The question posed to the young lady was, what should the christian response to the war be? She brought back the issue that we as Christians should be defending the cause of the widow and the orphan. I think it a fair assessment to say that we are doing that in Iraq right now as the only think standing between the innocents and the enemy is the army. If I as a believe in Christ support the troops in their mission - are they not acting on my behalf? In short, am I not involved in the fight with them?"
______________________________________
You quoted her as saying "we are there to defend people who can't yet defend themselves" Unless she said so, I doubt she thought of windows and orphans, all her statement implied is that "we're defending Iraqis", and in Christian pop culture it's the same vague rhetoric that is being taught with not much base at all; she was just repeating what she heard, it's really not hard to believe because I've heard it before. This is speculation on my part having not been there in person.
We keep spending hundreds of billions on an overseas war which we have no moral or legal right to be involved in, to "defend the cause of the widow and the orphan"? In truth it has been demonstrated beyond doubt that we are CREATING orphans and widows, and killing them too. Why do we not defend the innocent children being ripped apart in their mother's wombs in America? 4,000 American children are slain EVERY DAY, and fake Christians and politicians won't lift a finger or raise their voice against this wickedness, yet will happily and openly advocate an illegal and murderous war which they will NEVER see, all from the comfort of their La-Z-Boy.
I pray for the troops safety, for them to come home where they belong, and also for the innocent. I believe your prayers about their "Mission" are ineffective and vague. The troops are NOT acting on your behalf, they take their marching orders from the US government alone.
_________________________
"3. We havent helped them? Sheesh Tobey - dont they have free elections now. Arent they formulating their own govt - constitution - oil sharing plan - alliances - infastructure - individual rights etc et al? How do you look past this?"
__________________________________________________
Wow, that's like cutting the limbs off of a little puppy and then throwing it a bone. And what sense does it make to "Give another country individual rights", but we suspend habeus corpus, while The Patriot Act took a dump on our Bill of Rights. Also if you hated Iraq under Saddam, don't forget who put him in power.
__________________________
"4. Pre emptive war not condoned? I'd like you to answer for me why the israelites were ordered to kill all of the inhabitants of Canaan as they came into the land. LET me help you - it is because God knew that the people would corrupt the israelites so he ordered their COMPLETE AND TOTAL DESTRUCTION! Sounds like pre emprive war to me."
__________________________________________________ ____________
What you're failing to grasp is that GOD ALONE DECIDED to destroy Canaan because ONLY GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE:"Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God."
Are you seriously comparing a Theocratic Government directly ordered by God to exercise his divine judgement on entirely evil idol-worshipers, as justification for Christians to engage in Preemptive war? The only thing that tells me is that ONLY God could make a judgement call like that. Not only is America not in the slightest equivalent to God's Chosen People B.C., you still have the problem of God ignoring nations due to their own sin:
Isaiah 1:15
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood
Psalm 44:9-11
9 But now you have rejected and humbled us;
you no longer go out with our armies.
10 You made us retreat before the enemy,
and our adversaries have plundered us.
11 You gave us up to be devoured like sheep
and have scattered us among the nations.
Deuteronomy 1:41-42
41 Then you replied, "We have sinned against the LORD. We will go up and fight, as the LORD our God commanded us." So every one of you put on his weapons, thinking it easy to go up into the hill country.
42 But the LORD said to me, "Tell them, 'Do not go up and fight, because I will not be with you. You will be defeated by your enemies."
Numbers 14:42-44
42 Do not go up, because the LORD is not with you. You will be defeated by your enemies, 43 for the Amalekites and Canaanites will face you there. Because you have turned away from the LORD, he will not be with you and you will fall by the sword."
44 Nevertheless, in their presumption they went up toward the high hill country, though neither Moses nor the ark of the LORD's covenant moved from the camp.
America's hands are full of the innocent blood of their own sons and daughters. Do you think God can look upon our nation and bless it? And now we attack other nations and kill their sons and daughters, all in the name of "freedom"? What perverse thought processes must one go through to think such things? Do you honestly think that bombing other nations and killing their women and children is a legitimate way to share the gospel of Jesus Christ? Have you stopped to think of the faceless people in Iraq that, because of our actions, have further hardened themselves against Americans and Christians because their family members are being blown up. There is nothing in all of this that spreads the Gospel, in fact it's the exact opposite. This is so destructive to the message of peace and mercy. If you think I'm wrong , The IISS reported that al-Qaeda's recruitment and fundraising efforts had been given a major boost by the U.S. invasion of Iraq. The CIA calls this "Blowback" it's a very real concept. They don't attack us because "They hate freedom", that's stupid. Listen to the CIA, listen to your enemy.
Jesus is "The Prince of Peace", and said things like "blessed are the peace makers" at the Sermon on the Mount
James 3:17-18
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
Hebrews 12:13-15
14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many
1 Timothy 2
1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
So I'll say again Christians do not Condone Preemptive War, They don't advocate war in general, that's why there is Just War Doctrine that lays out extreme conditions for war, because it's a last resort.
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"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing that it seeks to destroy."
- Martin Luther King, Jr
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or
that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
- Theodore Roosevelt
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1953
Peace out yall, and let me know if I misrepresented anything