Rand Paul, George P. Bush talk Hispanic outreach

[CaseyJones]

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/rand-paul-george-p-bush-hispanic-outreach-republicans-gop-103281.html#ixzz2skB9YGmw


Sen. Rand Paul on Friday met with George P. Bush, a rising star in Texas GOP politics, to discuss how to broaden the Republican Party’s appeal in diverse communities.

“Really I wanted to get advice from him, as much as anything, about how the party grows in Texas and states with large Hispanic populations,” Paul (R-Ky.) told POLITICO backstage after stumping for a state senate candidate here.

Bush recommended “showing up” in those communities, Paul said. The senator, who has said he is seriously considering a 2016 presidential bid, often talks about the importance of growing the Republican Party, and has made it a point to reach out to minority communities. Bush, the son of former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, is running for land commissioner here, and as a Hispanic Republican — his mother is from Mexico — has been a vocal advocate for expanding the GOP tent.
..
Paul’s comments came after a speech at the Frontiers of Flight museum, where he threw himself into a hotly contested GOP state senate primary by campaigning for a tea party-backed candidate, Don Huffines, a real estate developer who has known the Paul family for decades.

“The Huffines family has always stood with the Paul family,” he said before delving into one of his standard speeches in which he skewered wasteful spending. “The Paul family stands with the Huffines family.”

[Origanalist]

The Bush's need trimming, they are a invasive species.

[RandallFan]

I don't know if a banker from Miami can say anything about Hispanic outreach that Reince could have said. I think some people will despise what GP Bush is doing. Getting a token job in the least important office. Then he can mouth off as a Texan Leader about how the GOP doesn't pass immigration reform.

Florida poll: Clinton leads Bush, Rubio in matchups

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/florida-poll-clinton-leads-bush-rubio-in-matchups/2163668


Speaking in a mix of English and sometimes-halting Spanish, George P. Bush said his uncle was not to blame for the gun policy, which has angered Mexicans. He instead blamed it on "some local INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) guy who's trying to be tough, act macho."

http://michellemalkin.com/2004/08/22/george-p-bush-disses-the-border-patrol/

[ctiger2]

DISGUSTING Rand Paul Meets with George P. Bush (http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/02/disgusting-rand-paul-meets-with-george.html)


George P. is an up and coming member of the Bush crime family. Outside of ingratiating himself with the power elite, there is no reason for Rand to meet with this character.

I tend to agree with R. Wenzel on this one.

[Rudeman]

Sorry but there's nothing wrong with meeting George P. Bush.

[TaftFan]

DISGUSTING Rand Paul Meets with George P. Bush (http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/02/disgusting-rand-paul-meets-with-george.html)



I tend to agree with R. Wenzel on this one.
I would rather meet with George P. than Wenzel any day of the week.

[cajuncocoa]

I would rather meet with George P. than Wenzel any day of the week.
No one is surprised.

[Christian Liberty]

No one is surprised.

I guess they let anti-liberty people post here?;)

Seriously though, is there any VALID reason for the Wenzel hate? Or is it just that he doesn't support Rand's pandering?

[cajuncocoa]

I guess they let anti-liberty people post here?;)

Seriously though, is there any VALID reason for the Wenzel hate? Or is it just that he doesn't support Rand's pandering?
The latter, of course. I like Wenzel.

[TaftFan]

I guess they let anti-liberty people post here?;)

Seriously though, is there any VALID reason for the Wenzel hate? Or is it just that he doesn't support Rand's pandering?

One, he's a fake. Two, he is politically naive. Three, he's a jerk.

I'm sure George P. is a much nicer person and has more insight than Wenzel, who has no real world experience.

I'm not saying I'm a George P. supporter, although I think he is more conservative than the rest of his family. I would rather meet him though.

[LibertyEagle]

I would rather meet with George P. than Wenzel any day of the week.

I wouldn't want to meet with either, but yeah, I understand your statement. Wenzel is a snake, pretending to be an ally.

[LibertyEagle]

I guess they let anti-liberty people post here?;)

Seriously though, is there any VALID reason for the Wenzel hate? Or is it just that he doesn't support Rand's pandering?

You must be talking about yourself, because there isn't a thing wrong with what TaftFan said. How frickin' rude of you and CajunCocoa!

[Christian Liberty]

The latter, of course. I like Wenzel.

I don't really know much about him, but I suspect I'd probably like him too, seeing how the more moderate people here are ticked off at him. I like Rand Paul too... most of the time. But that doesn't make anyone who criticizes him somehow an "enemy of liberty" or whatever other nonsense.

Frankly, I'm prejudiced against the Bush family name. If someone with the last name "Bush" and from that family came forward with all of Ron Paul's positions, I'd probably still think they were lying. I'm not saying its fair, but that's where I'm at. George W. went into the debates criticizing Bill Clinton's interventionism, then "9-11 changed everything" and he stabbed liberty in the back. Not to mention H.W. openly supporting "New World Order." I don't know, I just don't trust them, period.


One, he's a fake. Two, he is politically naive. Three, he's a jerk.

I have a hard time believing these things, even if they were true, could possibly make him worse than anyone with "Bush" as a last name (See my above post about prejudice.)

I'd rather meet ANY libertarian, even one who was politically irrelevant, to any of them. Unless it were a meeting with George W. for the sake of telling him to repent of his wickedness, which would be enjoyable.


I'm sure George P. is a much nicer person and has more insight than Wenzel, who has no real world experience.


I don't care if someone can talk nice while wanting to steal from me and use the funds to murder people overseas. Are these things not true of George P.?

I have a little grace in this regard when it comes to the ignorant masses, since at least they don't actually INTEND to steal from me or kill people overseas, even if they support other people doing it which is bad enough. But I lose any such sympathy when such a person runs for office.

I'm sure you'd rather meet George P. than me as well, which is actually probably understandable;) I'll stick with principles.



I'm not saying I'm a George P. supporter, although I think he is more conservative than the rest of his family. I would rather meet him though.

I don't think I could get through the meeting, considering I strongly believe George P. to be as sociopathic as most politicians.

You must be talking about yourself, because there isn't a thing wrong with what TaftFan said. How frickin' rude of you and CajunCocoa!

I was kind of joking, but.. whatever else you can say about Wenzel, to my understanding he supports liberty. George P. does not.

Now, there are situations where you could argue that it doesn't matter, but in this case, both are political figures, so it doesn't matter.

I don't really believe TaftFan is anti-liberty, I just think that was a silly comment based on irrational hate of Bob Wenzel. I'd like to see evidence that the hatred is justified.

[compromise]

George P has done a good job trying to expand the GOP to include more ethnic minorities, especially Hispanics. It makes sense for Rand to meet him.

[Christian Liberty]

Yeah, I understand that. Rand is a politician as well, so I don't really expect him to shun the sociopaths like I would. But I'd still rather meet Bob Wenzel, personally.

[William Tell]

Seriously though, is there any VALID reason for the Wenzel hate? Or is it just that he doesn't support Rand's pandering?
I can't stand Wenzel, because he treats Ron Paul like a 3 year old. Whenever Ron does something he does not like, he blames it on Rand, Jesse, and "Paul Inc" as he calls it. His hobby is putting out hit pieces on the Paul family. Seriously, If he disagrees with Ron over something. Endorsements, etc. He should say so, not imply that he is senile and being manipulated.

For the record, George P Bush is bad news.

[whoisjohngalt]

I don't know if a banker from Miami can say anything about Hispanic outreach that Reince could have said. I think some people will despise what GP Bush is doing. Getting a token Being given a job in the least important oldest and most powerful office. Then he can mouth off as a Texan Leader about how the GOP doesn't pass immigration reform.

Fixed.

I take it you aren't from Texas. The office also has a direct pipeline to the Lieutenant Governorship. In a decade, he will be President George P. Bush. Watch out.

[Brett85]

DISGUSTING Rand Paul Meets with George P. Bush (http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/02/disgusting-rand-paul-meets-with-george.html)



I tend to agree with R. Wenzel on this one.

Should Ron not have worked with Democrats like Dennis Kucinich and Barney Frank since he disagreed with them on the majority of the issues?

[Bergie Bergeron]

Politico: Rand Paul warns Texas could turn blue (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/rand-paul-texas-could-turn-blue-103292.html?hp=f3)

[Christian Liberty]

I can't stand Wenzel, because he treats Ron Paul like a 3 year old. Whenever Ron does something he does not like, he blames it on Rand, Jesse, and "Paul Inc" as he calls it. His hobby is putting out hit pieces on the Paul family. Seriously, If he disagrees with Ron over something. Endorsements, etc. He should say so, not imply that he is senile and being manipulated.

For the record, George P Bush is bad news.

Can you prove some evidence for these accusations against Wenzel? Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't know Wenzel well. Lew Rockwell seems to think he's a good guy so I'd want to see some evidence before assuming Rockwell is wrong.


Should Ron not have worked with Democrats like Dennis Kucinich and Barney Frank since he disagreed with them on the majority of the issues?

I see your point, and I don't have any issue with Rand having the meeting. I just personally strongly dislike the Bush family. Some of the reasons aren't completely rational. I know I'd disown anyone in my family for doing half as much damage to America as George W. did, doubly so because I know (Yes, I will claim to know this, despite lack of hard proof) he did it on purpose. I don't see how you could knowingly have a family member that is a sociopath yet continue to treat him like he's a good guy. That fact alone kind of makes me automatically dislike anyone in that family. I don't put that on Rand, of course. The reality is that the Bush family is powerful. I hope Rand can manipulate them for his own ends.

Kucinich, here's the thing... I think he held a lot of bad positions, probably more of them than George W. when you add them up, but I honestly do believe Kucinich was sincere about those positions. The reason I think that was because he was almost a liberal version of Ron Paul in the sense that he was opposed to his establishment, and reached across the aisle to get things done when there was a good goal in common, hence why he was able to work with Ron Paul. I suspect similar might apply to Barney Frank, but I don't know anything about him. Its not that I like Kucinich, but I don't think he's consciously evil the way I think Bush (George W., at least) is.

And again, that's me personally. I don't put that on Rand.

[ObiRandKenobi]

besides his immediate family and his maids, what hispanics does george p know? he's culturally whiter than obama.

rand paul knows more hispanics than george p

[compromise]

I know I'd disown anyone in my family for doing half as much damage to America as George W. did

Probably because you're autistic

[FriedChicken]

Probably because you're autistic

LOL.
Oh boy, I do enjoy the two of you getting together. Makes threads quite funny to read.

Also - you realize that was about as politically incorrect as you can get, right?

[eduardo89]

I would rather meet with George P. than Wenzel any day of the week.

Wenzel is a tool.

[eduardo89]

besides his immediate family and his maids, what hispanics does george p know? he's culturally whiter than obama.

rand paul knows more hispanics than george p

George P. Bush is Hispanic, you dumbass. His mother is Mexican.

[Christian Liberty]

Probably because you're autistic


LOL.
Oh boy, I do enjoy the two of you getting together. Makes threads quite funny to read.

Also - you realize that was about as politically incorrect as you can get, right?

It doesn't bother me. My skin's thick enough to take it. I'm just curious why compromise thinks that would matter, and whether its a positive or a negative in his mind.

Just to clarify here, I have plenty of family who LIKE Bush. Their ignorance disgusts me, but its ignorance. But George W. wasn't ignorant. He knew better. That's why I make that comment.

[Christian Liberty]

Wenzel is a tool.

I happen to think compromise is a tool, but hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.

[compromise]

It doesn't bother me. My skin's thick enough to take it. I'm just curious why compromise thinks that would matter, and whether its a positive or a negative in his mind.

I think that would drastically increase the likelihood of one wanting to disown their family, nothing more.

[eduardo89]

I happen to think compromise is a tool, but hey, we're all entitled to our opinions.

Compromise is one of the most sane and rational posters on here, so I'm not surprised you think that of him.

[RandallFan]

Politico: Rand Paul warns Texas could turn blue (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/02/rand-paul-texas-could-turn-blue-103292.html?hp=f3)

Still, Texas would not go Democratic until 2036.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114145/blue-texas-eight-charts-show-why-it-wont-happen

That’s because Latinos in Texas are disproportionately ineligible to vote. Too many either aren’t citizens or are too young to upend the state in the next few election cycles.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics-july-dec13-texas_07-09/

So for the last decade, Hispanics have only cast 20 percent of total votes cast in statewide elections.

So many Adult white American Citizens aged 18-100 vote for the Republican Party at in Texas which is why the GOP has been dominant.

Rand Paul's job isn't meant to see off the suicide of the Texas GOP in 24 years time it is to get 270 Electoral college votes in 2016 and 2020.

[Christian Liberty]

I think that would drastically increase the likelihood of one wanting to disown their family, nothing more.

I don't want to disown my family. But my family doesn't have an unrepentant sociopathic mass murderer in it.


Compromise is one of the most sane and rational posters on here, so I'm not surprised you think that of him.

Moderation in the defense of liberty is no virtue.

[serenityrick]

As long as outreach = visiting and talking with those communities.

Unfortunately, the GOP's version of "outreach" is amnesty. It didn't work in the 80's (and in fact, helped turn California blue) and it sure as hell isn't going to work now. Not to mention making 11-20 million people legal would be an absolute disaster for the job market

[RandallFan]

besides his immediate family and his maids, what hispanics does george p know? he's culturally whiter than obama.

rand paul knows more hispanics than george p

I'll go one better. Tom Tancredo has more had more hispanics and swing voters vote for him than Rand Paul and GP Bush.

[TaftFan]

I'll go one better. Tom Tancredo has more had more hispanics and swing voters vote for him than Rand Paul and GP Bush.
I'd like to see some numbers on this. Thats intriguing.

[Anti-Neocon]

He met with the devil - let's just hope he didn't sell his soul. "Hispanic outreach" is just a codeword for amnesty.

[RandallFan]

Tancredo gets a smaller % in a state with a lot more hispanics. GP Bush will beat him in 2014 when he first runs in Texas of course.

Kentucky is 3% Hispanic and I don't know how many are registered to vote. Colorado is at least 20% hispanic.

Colorado is a swing state. Im sure a few moderates and Democrats vote for Tancredo because he gave the finger to Bush and Rove.

Tancredo has visited Mexico and Mexican delegations and told them to embrace capitalism.

[Brett85]

As long as outreach = visiting and talking with those communities.

Unfortunately, the GOP's version of "outreach" is amnesty. It didn't work in the 80's (and in fact, helped turn California blue) and it sure as hell isn't going to work now. Not to mention making 11-20 million people legal would be an absolute disaster for the job market

Neither Rand nor the Republicans in Congress are advocating citizenship for illegals, so the voting issue is irrelevant.

[Sola_Fide]

Wenzel is a tool.

Don't you respect people who stand uncompromisingly on their worldview, even if it may be wrong? I do.

[eduardo89]

Don't you respect people who stand uncompromisingly on their worldview, even if it may be wrong? I do.

I don't respect a guy who constantly smears and misrepresents Rand Paul.

[cocrehamster]

Don't you respect people who stand uncompromisingly on their worldview, even if it may be wrong? I do.


So it's respectable to frequently bash the guy who agrees with more of your worldview than the other 99 Senators? I don't ever see Judge Napolitano or or Tom Woods going around bashing Rand, and they are both, along with many others, much more libertarian than Rand and as uncompromising as anyone.

[Christian Liberty]

Don't you respect people who stand uncompromisingly on their worldview, even if it may be wrong? I do.

Adolf Hitler was a consistent statist. Do you respect him?

I know this is an absurd comparison (From what I understand, I like Wenzel). But, I think it proves that you shouldn't respect someone just because they are consistent.

[T.hill]

Who honestly thinks Ron would have behaved any differently in this situation?

Are we not suppose to associate with people who don't think exactly like us?

[Christian Liberty]

Who honestly thinks Ron would have behaved any differently in this situation?

Are we not suppose to associate with people who don't think exactly like us?

There might be merit to doing that at some point, but no we aren't "supposed" to do that. Even still, the advocacy for violence as IMMORAL is hard for most to grasp.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Amnesty only hastens Texas turning purple and eventually blue. Amnesty makes the entire country California.

[Brett85]

Amnesty only hastens Texas turning purple and eventually blue. Amnesty makes the entire country California.

Rand isn't advocating citizenship and allowing them to vote, but rather just giving them work VISA's after the border is secure. They would be working here and paying taxes but not voting. I don't see why that position upsets people so much.

[Smitty]

This statement loses my vote.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/rand-paul-texas-will-turn-democratic-in-10-years-if-republicans-dont-change/article/2543726

Paul said that Immigration could be one area that Republicans could adjust their position in order to attract more people to the party.

“We won’t all agree on it,” Paul said. “But I’ll tell you, what I will say and what I’ll continue to say, and it’s not an exact policy prescription ... but if you want to work and you want a job and you want to be part of America, we’ll find a place for you.”

[Brett85]

This statement loses my vote.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/rand-paul-texas-will-turn-democratic-in-10-years-if-republicans-dont-change/article/2543726

Paul said that Immigration could be one area that Republicans could adjust their position in order to attract more people to the party.

“We won’t all agree on it,” Paul said. “But I’ll tell you, what I will say and what I’ll continue to say, and it’s not an exact policy prescription ... but if you want to work and you want a job and you want to be part of America, we’ll find a place for you.”

Weird. He loses your vote for advocating legal immigration? Sometimes I can't even tell any difference between the libertarians on this site and the free republic types, when it comes to immigration. Rand is taking a more libertarian position on immigration, even though he isn't taking the full blown anarchist position of supporting open borders.

[Smitty]

Sometimes I can't even tell any difference between the libertarians on this site and the free republic types, when it comes to immigration.

If Chris Christie had said those words would you be defending him?

It's way past time to own up.

[Christian Liberty]

Weird. He loses your vote for advocating legal immigration? Sometimes I can't even tell any difference between the libertarians on this site and the free republic types, when it comes to immigration. Rand is taking a more libertarian position on immigration, even though he isn't taking the full blown anarchist position of supporting open borders.

What's a "free republic" type? I'm not sure why supporting open borders would necessarily make one an anarchist. Personally, my ideal is that the only thing that could ever prevent someone from traveling where they want is private property. But, I agree that that's not completely feasible right now. I'm mostly OK with Rand's position on this issue but I'd prefer him to flat out say that anyone can come but only if they forfeit their rights to vote or collect government benefits upon entry.

[Smitty]

I'd prefer him to flat out say that anyone can come but only if they forfeit their rights to vote or collect government benefits upon entry.

He's not going to say that.

It's not acceptable to the Marxist/multicultural ideology.

[Christian Liberty]

He's not going to say that.

It's not acceptable to the Marxist/multicultural ideology.

I know he won't. Just saying what my position is. Which, oh the horror, means I support open borders:p

[Smitty]

I don't know what you support,...don't care.

Rand is giving a mealy mouthed endorsement for amnesty.

His entire political career is a study in how to be a mealy mouthed politician.

Mealy mouthed politicians are a dime a dozen.

The liberty movement doesn't need to get involved with them,..regardless of what their last name happens to be.

[Christian Liberty]

I don't know what you support,...don't care.

Rand is giving a mealy mouthed endorsement for amnesty.

His entire political career is a study in how to be a mealy mouthed politician.

Mealy mouthed politicians are a dime a dozen.

The liberty movement doesn't need to get involved with them,..regardless of what their last name happens to be.
I'm more worried about Rand's Iran stances, TBH. Rand isn't supporting amnesty, he still wants to make illegal immigrants get to the back of the line for citizenship.

[Smitty]

Sure he does.

[KingNothing]

I guess they let anti-liberty people post here?;)

Seriously though, is there any VALID reason for the Wenzel hate? Or is it just that he doesn't support Rand's pandering?

YUCK! HOW DARE RAND FOCUS ON BUILDING COALITIONS TO FIGHT FOR LIBERTY!??! DOUBLE YUCK!

[KingNothing]

George P has done a good job trying to expand the GOP to include more ethnic minorities, especially Hispanics. It makes sense for Rand to meet him.

The lunatic fringe doesn't want to win. If we win, we wouldn't be hip and cool. Better to be a cool, outsider than a winner, in their mind.

Really, all Rand did was SPEAK to someone and these lunatics are put off by it. Threads like this make me remember why I post here less now than I used to.

[Smitty]

Every neocon out there is fighting to build a coalition.

I don't give a rat's ass about a coalition *or* the health of the GOP.

Partisan politics is for liars and knotheads.

Freedom and liberty is for people who can think beyond the Democrat/Republican paradigm.

[Smitty]

The lunatic fringe doesn't want to win. If we win, we wouldn't be hip and cool. Better to be a cool, outsider than a winner, in their mind.

Really, all Rand did was SPEAK to someone and these lunatics are put off by it. Threads like this make me remember why I post here less now than I used to.

So now advocates of liberty is a "lunatic fringe"?

This forum has gone to hell.

[Anti-Neocon]

YUCK! HOW DARE RAND FOCUS ON BUILDING COALITIONS TO FIGHT FOR LIBERTY!??! DOUBLE YUCK!
I agree with your train of thought, but in perspective I don't. How is George P. BUSH part of any "liberty coalition"? Especially when the goal of their meeting has already been established - "Hispanic outreach" aka amnesty.

[Rudeman]

Every neocon out there is fighting to build a coalition.

I don't give a rat's ass about a coalition *or* the health of the GOP.

Partisan politics is for liars and knotheads.

Freedom and liberty is for people who can think beyond the Democrat/Republican paradigm.

Ron Paul believed in building coalitions. If you isolate yourself you'll get nothing done.

[Smitty]

The liberty movement is its own coalition.

Compromise with the lesser mindsets only serves to drag it down.

[Smitty]

,...as is demonstrated on this forum daily.

[Brett85]

If Chris Christie had said those words would you be defending him?

It's way past time to own up.

The amnesty issue isn't important to me, although I do think that border security is important, and Rand is probably stronger than any other member of Congress when it comes to securing the border. But I don't care what we do with the 11 million who are already here when we have so many more vital and important issues like defending the Bill of Rights, stopping and ending wars, preserving states rights, repealing Obamacare, etc. I just can't understand how the immigration issue of all things is the one issue that's the most important issue and a deal breaker for some people.

[Brett85]

Really, Rand is far stronger on border security and immigration than Ron ever was, and I never heard any of these "immigration hawks" on this forum criticize Ron for his immigration stance. He even received an F rating from an anti illegal immigration group that gives out grades.

[RandallFan]

Ron didn't flip flop. Rand did. Rand ran in 2010 in support of the Arizona law. If you legalize the illegals, Joe Arpaio is going to be sitting in a prison instead for trying to enforce the law.

If you legalize them they get all the freebies.

I think Ron was solid on anchor babies whereas Rand has backed away after sponsoring a bill with David Vitter in 2011.

It is not even so much the issue because I dont see an anchor baby issue being dealth with by congress. It wont pass the Senate filibuster.

[Smitty]

The amnesty issue isn't important to me,

Then you've yet to understand the goals of Marxist ideology at work in America.

[Brett85]

Ron didn't flip flop. Rand did. Rand is saying future immigrants should decide the flow if they want a job.

Ron did flip flop. Ron voted to build the fence along the border, and then later said that he was opposed to it. He said that he was opposed to amnesty in any form, and then in his book he wrote that he supported giving a legal status to illegal immigrants that fell short of citizenship.

[Brett85]

Then you've yet to understand the goals of Marxist ideology at work in America.

What I mean is that it's not as important as other issues. And Rand isn't advocating any kind of immediate amnesty, but actually waiting four or five years to make sure the border is secure, then giving out work VISA's to those here illegally. They would only be allowed to become citizens if they got in the back of the line behind everyone else, the same way that they would try to become citizens if they lived in another country. Rand isn't saying that they should be given immediate citizenship or should be allowed to cut in line in front of those who have already applied to become citizens. It seems pretty reasonable to me. The only point I really disagree with him on is that I think they should have to pay a fine or receive other penalties before they become citizens.

[Smitty]

What I mean is that it's not as important as other issues. And Rand isn't advocating any kind of immediate amnesty, but actually waiting four or five years to make sure the border is secure, then giving out work VISA's to those here illegally. They would only be allowed to become citizens if they got in the back of the line behind everyone else, the same way that they would try to become citizens if they lived in another country.

That's the standard Marxist line that all of them are crowing.

[Brett85]

What's a "free republic" type?

Anyone who says that anything short of deporting 11 million illegal immigrants is "amnesty."

[Rudeman]

The liberty movement is its own coalition.

Compromise with the lesser mindsets only serves to drag it down.


Building coalitions and compromise are 2 different things.

[Brett85]

That's the standard Marxist line that all of them are crowing.

So your solution is to just have government agents break into people's homes, drag them out of their homes, put them on buses and take them back to their home country? That would massively expand the police state if that were to happen.

[KingNothing]

The liberty movement is its own coalition.

Compromise with the lesser mindsets only serves to drag it down.

Who the hell said anything about compromising?

This Bush probably dislikes taxes, and he probably dislikes the red tape and regulations that our government has shackled businesses with. On those issues, we can work with him. If he wants to destroy civil liberties or wage foolish wars abroad, we can disagree with him on those issues.

It's an immature mind that tries to force everyone into an "all or nothing" condition for working together.

[Smitty]

So your solution is to just have government agents break into people's homes, drag them out of their homes, put them on buses and take them home? That would massively expand the police state if that were to happen.

My solution is to end illegal immigration,...and more than a bit of legal immigration,..and to enforce the laws regarding illegal immigration by deporting all who aren't authorized to be living in America.

Multiculturalism is a fools game that's being pushed onto the unaware.

The liberty movement needs to be aware.

[Smitty]

Who the hell said anything about compromising?



It's an immature mind that tries to force everyone into an "all or nothing" condition for working together.

The second line of your post states that anything except compromise is immature.

[Brett85]

My solution is to end illegal immigration,...and more than a bit of legal immigration,..and to enforce the laws regarding illegal immigration by deporting all who aren't authorized to be living in America.

I'm all in favor of ending illegal immigration, and so is Rand, but I'm not sure why a libertarian would advocate a mass deportation of illegal immigrants when that would be a massive expansion of government power and a massive expansion of the police state. You would literally have government agents coming into people's homes and dragging them out. It would be like the Elian Gonzalez situation times 11 million.

[Smitty]

I'm all in favor of ending illegal immigration, and so is Rand, but I'm not sure why a libertarian would advocate a mass deportation of illegal immigrants when that would be a massive expansion of government power

The massive influx of immigrants,..both legal *and* illegal, is indicative of massive government expansion.

[Smitty]

Good read:

http://www.marylandthursdaymeeting.com/Archives/SpecialWebDocuments/Cultural.Marxism.htm

Excerpt:

In his columns on the next conservatism, Paul Weyrich has several times referred to “cultural Marxism.” He asked me, as Free Congress Foundation’s resident historian, to write this column explaining what cultural Marxism is and where it came from. In order to understand what something is, you have to know its history.

Cultural Marxism is a branch of western Marxism, different from the Marxism-Leninism of the old Soviet Union. It is commonly known as “multiculturalism” or, less formally, Political Correctness. From its beginning, the promoters of cultural Marxism have known they could be more effective if they concealed the Marxist nature of their work, hence the use of terms such as “multiculturalism.”

[asurfaholic]

So now advocates of liberty is a "lunatic fringe"?

This forum has gone to hell.

He didnt say that. I don't personally know any, but I guess he is referring specifically to the ultra hipster type of libertarian who takes pride in being different.

I guess each person is different, but even when I don't entirely agree with Rands stances on things, (Iran sanctions a big one) i still see the bigger good and know we could be on the verge of a huge victory for liberty as a whole. Getting someone elected who opposes the corporate welfare and the current system of government which is sucking the life out of the economy would be a huge win.

But first he has to get elected. Politics is a dirty word, but I'm glad that Rand and others are playing elite level fastball. Think about it, it was not long ago he's looking at people's eyes for a living, next thing you know he's a serious contender for the White House. Who better in congress? Nobody. I'm excited, and comments like yours and others who trash Rand or his strategy leave me kinda knowing that this forum will not be an asset to any true movement to get liberty candidates elected. Sorry, but all we have here are keyboard warriors.

[Rudeman]

My solution is to end illegal immigration,...and more than a bit of legal immigration,..and to enforce the laws regarding illegal immigration by deporting all who aren't authorized to be living in America.

Multiculturalism is a fools game that's being pushed onto the unaware.

The liberty movement needs to be aware.

Well lets here your solution, how would you end illegal immigration while at the same time also reducing immigration? What would you do with all current immigrants both legal and illegal? What is your solution for businesses who need skilled workers but lack that resource in the US?

[Rudeman]

The second line of your post states that anything except compromise is immature.


Building a coalition is not compromise. Even Ron Paul promoted building coalitions.

[Pisces]

I think the Texas GOP is already doing a fairly good job reaching out to Hispanics without any help from George P, who hasn't been elected to anything yet in Texas.


WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Texas Hispanics are decidedly Democratic in their political party preferences, 46% to 27%, but that 19-percentage-point Democratic advantage is much smaller in Texas than the average 30-point gap Democrats enjoy among the Hispanic population in the other 49 states. And white Texas residents are decidedly more Republican (61%) than the average among whites residing in other states (48%), complicating whether Texas will turn into a "blue" Democratic state in future elections...

Relative to 2008 -- the year of President Barack Obama's landslide presidential victory -- Texan Hispanics have gradually become more Republican, even as the percentage of Hispanics identifying with or leaning toward the Republican Party has remained relatively stable nationwide. The six-percentage-point gap between the percentage of Texan Hispanics and Hispanics living in all other states who identify or lean GOP is the highest it has been in over six years.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/167339/texan-hispanics-tilt-democratic-state-likely-stay-red.aspx

I have a few theories as to why Texas Hispanics are more likely to be Republican. For example, I think fracking can take some of the credit. This may seem out of left field unless you've spent some time in South Texas. The Eagle Ford shale boom is pulling a lot of formerly poor Anglos and Tejanos into the middle class. Middle class native Texans, both white and Hispanic live in the same neighborhoods, intermarry and hold very similar views. At least that is what I've noticed. Also, the perception that Democrats are against the oil and gas industry may be hurting them in South Texas. Some of this is just my speculation, but I think it's reasonable speculation.

Given this trend, there's no reason to believe that opposing amnesty and increased immigration will doom the GOP in Texas. To be honest, some of the most anti-immigrant and anti-Mexican statements I've ever heard have come out of the mouths of native Texas Hispanics.

[Anti-Neocon]

Building a coalition is not compromise. Even Ron Paul promoted building coalitions.
Ron Paul supported building coalitions for liberty issues. "Hispanic outreach" aka amnesty aka open borders is not a liberty issue to most people.

[Crashland]

Multiculturalism is a fools game that's being pushed onto the unaware.

The liberty movement needs to be aware.

Multiculturalism is a product of liberty. If a society does not value multiculturalism it's a sign that liberty is dying.

[Brett85]

Ron Paul supported building coalitions for liberty issues. "Hispanic outreach" aka amnesty aka open borders is not a liberty issue to most people.

Ron Paul was far worse on this issue than Rand. He didn't even support building the fence along the border and basically ran on a platform of open borders when he ran for President in 2012.

[Rudeman]

Ron Paul supported building coalitions for liberty issues. "Hispanic outreach" aka amnesty aka open borders is not a liberty issue to most people.


Why is "Hispanic outreach" = amnesty? What do you think African American outreach is = to? Or outreach to women? Rand knows you can't win nationally simply relying on the white male vote anymore.

[Rudeman]

Ron Paul was far worse on this issue than Rand. He didn't even support building the fence along the border and basically ran on a platform of open borders when he ran for President in 2012.

The free market position is in favor of open borders, of course that only works without all the govt. benefits.

[mczerone]

I guess they let anti-liberty people post here?;)

Seriously though, is there any VALID reason for the Wenzel hate? Or is it just that he doesn't support Rand's pandering?

Here is a good reason: He's not Robert Wenzel. (http://www.ofnumbers.com/2013/04/15/i-mayhave-the-drudge-formula-and-keyser-oze/) (skip the first couple of sections for the real controversy)

He's a conman, he's taken the basics of Austrian insights and trades them for subscriptions. He plagiarizes while railing against others for plagiarizing. He doesn't have any unique or original thoughts on economics, he just regurgitates the basics with either stolen or flamboyant and poorly constructed language.

If you're in for a little masochism, search out the Wenzel/Kinsella IP "debate." Not only was Wenzel out of his league, but he couldn't do anything but find Rothbard quotes, out of context, to throw back at Kinsella - and call him names.

[Anti-Neocon]

Why is "Hispanic outreach" = amnesty? What do you think African American outreach is = to? Or outreach to women? Rand knows you can't win nationally simply relying on the white male vote anymore.
If you admit that the GOP's strength right now is whites, then how does a path to citizenship for illegal non-whites help the GOP?

Rand's best chance of winning and keeping the GOP in power for a while in the future is to remodel its message so that it is no longer the un-hip party of old people. He can pull the same kind of campaign that Obama pulled against Hillary in 2008 - be the candidate of change, transparency, non-intervention, and of course legal weed. He can highlight how he is a living example of family values without going full retard on so-con issues. Leave all those to the states.

[axiomata]

What's with all these no compromise self defined libertarians taking the anti liberty anti legal immigration positions? I preferred the libertarian purists who wouldn't compromise with conservatives.

There's room to debate illegal immigration and what to do about it. There's no room for anti immigration and anti immigrants rhetoric in the libertarian movement.

[Brett85]

If you admit that the GOP's strength right now is whites, then how does a path to citizenship for illegal non-whites help the GOP?

Who is advocating a path to citizenship?

[fr33]

"Hispanic outreach" is just a codeword for amnesty.

Is it really? Do you live in Texas? And if so, how many Mexican voters do you know? Hispanics have been American citizens here longer than my folks. There are many hard working conservative hispanics here. People like you promote the narrative that republicans hate brown people.

[Brett85]

People like you promote the narrative that republicans hate brown people.

And that's what Rand is trying to change. People just don't understand the political reality of what's going on. The Hispanics are going to become the majority before too long even without amnesty or a path to citizenship, because they just reproduce a lot faster than any other group. The only way to win elections is to try to win them over to your side, and I think Rand can.

[Anti-Neocon]

What's with all these no compromise self defined libertarians taking the anti liberty anti legal immigration positions? I preferred the libertarian purists who wouldn't compromise with conservatives.

There's room to debate illegal immigration and what to do about it. There's no room for anti immigration and anti immigrants rhetoric in the libertarian movement.
You very well know that the topic at hand is illegal immigration. Don't act dumb. And not all of us here are "libertarians".

[Anti-Neocon]

Who is advocating a path to citizenship?
I would have to think that Rand Paul is trying to advocate for an eventual path to citizenship for illegal aliens. Until I hear him say something along the lines of "if you come here illegally, you will never become a citizen and neither will your children", then I'll have to assume that he supports a pathway to citizenship.

[Anti-Neocon]

Is it really? Do you live in Texas? And if so, how many Mexican voters do you know? Hispanics have been American citizens here longer than my folks. There are many hard working conservative hispanics here. People like you promote the narrative that republicans hate brown people.
Um, what? I am close to several legal Hispanic citizens, and believe they are deserving of the same rights as anyone else of any other race/ethnicity. Stop pulling out the race card and trying to make this about an imagined dislike for "brown people".

[Brett85]

I would have to think that Rand Paul is trying to advocate for an eventual path to citizenship for illegal aliens. Until I hear him say something along the lines of "if you come here illegally, you will never become a citizen and neither will your children", then I'll have to assume that he supports a pathway to citizenship.

He voted against the Senate bill and has proposed his own bill that is really pretty restrictive. You just want him to take a position that would make him completely unelectable in a general election.

[fr33]

Um, what? I am close to several legal Hispanic citizens, and believe they are deserving of the same rights as anyone else of any other race/ethnicity. Stop pulling out the race card and trying to make this about an imagined dislike for "brown people".

Hey you're the one assigning "code words" to hispanic outreach.

[Anti-Neocon]

He voted against the Senate bill and has proposed his own bill that is really pretty restrictive. You just want him to take a position that would make him completely unelectable in a general election.
So do you think that he supports amnesty-lite or no? Seems like you agree with me that he does. Secure borders, pathway to citizenship through legal immigration, and opposition to illegal immigration is not exactly a non-mainstream position.

[Anti-Neocon]

Hey you're the one assigning "code words" to hispanic outreach.
If "Hispanic outreach" is not a code word for amnesty/path to citizenship, then please tell me what you think "Hispanic outreach" entails. It's not like he was talking to Ted Cruz about outreach either. It was GP freakin' Bush.

[Brett85]

So do you think that he supports amnesty-lite or no? Seems like you agree with me that he does. Secure borders, pathway to citizenship through legal immigration, and opposition to illegal immigration is not exactly a non-mainstream position.

So you think that anything short of advocating the mass deportation of 11 million illegal immigrants is "amnesty-lite?"

[Anti-Neocon]

So you think that anything short of advocating the mass deportation of 11 million illegal immigrants is "amnesty-lite?"
They can stay here, but not get the benefits of citizenship. If they want those, to the back of the line. Law breaking should not be encouraged.

[fr33]

If "Hispanic outreach" is not a code word for amnesty/path to citizenship, then please tell me what you think "Hispanic outreach" entails. It's not like he was talking to Ted Cruz about outreach either. It was GP freakin' Bush.

Getting Hispanics to vote for the GOP. Duh. There are many Hispanic voters in Texas and have been for over a hundred years. You seek to ignore them and discount their votes and discount any outreach to them.

[libertarian101]

I would have to think that Rand Paul is trying to advocate for an eventual path to citizenship for illegal aliens. Until I hear him say something along the lines of "if you come here illegally, you will never become a citizen and neither will your children", then I'll have to assume that he supports a pathway to citizenship. Rand is so delusional it's unbelievable , he is the most pro amnesty politicians from both party. Even McConnell opponent is to the right of Rand on immigration. Rand will lose national GOP primary and will become a one term senator because he abandoned his campaign promise and stabbed Kentuckians voters in the back by supporting amnesty for illegal immigrants.

[Brian4Liberty]

What is your solution for businesses who need skilled workers but lack that resource in the US?

What is our solution to a lie?

The biggest problem facing America is the fact that I can't buy a mansion on the coast for $20k. What is your solution to that problem? (Paying market value is not an option).

[Rudeman]

If "Hispanic outreach" is not a code word for amnesty/path to citizenship, then please tell me what you think "Hispanic outreach" entails. It's not like he was talking to Ted Cruz about outreach either. It was GP freakin' Bush.

Hispanic outreach simply means trying to get their vote. It's no different than outreach to any other group. Rand isn't going to say what you want because it is politically stupid. Just look at his proposal, it's basically what you support. Allow them to stay but no citizenship unless they decide to go to the back of the line and wait and that's only after they secure the border first. So what's the big problem?

[Rudeman]

What is our solution to a lie?

The biggest problem facing America is the fact that I can't buy a mansion on the coast for $20k. What is your solution to that problem? (Paying market value is not an option).


What's the lie? Unless you plan on living in Detroit I doubt you can buy a mansion for $20k anywhere in the US not just the coast.

[compromise]

If "Hispanic outreach" is not a code word for amnesty/path to citizenship, then please tell me what you think "Hispanic outreach" entails. It's not like he was talking to Ted Cruz about outreach either. It was GP freakin' Bush.

I'm not against Rand's path to citizenship, but Hispanic outreach means a whole lot more than a path to citizenship. It could involve:

- Collaboration between Hispanic community leaders and Republicans
- More GOP marketing campaigns in Spanish
- Running more Hispanic candidates
- Toning down nativist rhetoric
- Expanding legal immigration, as Sen. Cruz supports

[KingNothing]

The second line of your post states that anything except compromise is immature.

No. You don't say "I'll back off of my position on 2A to gain a little ground with you on taxes." You work with people who support 2A to push legislation that you find favorable. You don't have to sell out your beliefs - you have to compartmentalize them, and find friends to support each of them.

[Brian4Liberty]

What is your solution for businesses who need skilled workers but lack that resource in the US?


What's the lie? Unless you plan on living in Detroit I doubt you can buy a mansion for $20k anywhere in the US not just the coast.

The lie is highlighted. They can't find a skilled worker. Yeah, right. They can't find a worker for a dirt cheap price with a visa dog collar. And they don't even look for Americans.

That is like a person saying they can't find a beach house for $20k, and they haven't even looked, but the government needs to fix that. And the proposed solution is for the government to provide a certain number of beach mansions for $20k, and sell them all to Gates and Zuckerberg. That's some solution.

[Brett85]

They can stay here, but not get the benefits of citizenship. If they want those, to the back of the line. Law breaking should not be encouraged.

Ok, but that's exactly what Rand's position is.

[RandallFan]

Even liberals believe Texas wont turn Blue until 2036.

There are a lot of monolithic Republican white voters and interstate white voters moving to Texas.

Hispanics dont have enough adult legal American citizens in Texas to send to the polls in the next 20 years. Hopefully Rand is retired by then and he can let someone else worry about it.

Do white voters stop voting when they turn 50?

Some individual Hispanics only what their cool uncles to be able to immigrate at a personal level. If Legal immigration became 90% Asian and illegal immigration was stopped some Hispanics would vote Republican to lower legal immigration.


They can stay here, but not get the benefits of citizenship. If they want those, to the back of the line. Law breaking should not be encouraged.

What about EBT cards and driving cards? How much will they cost the taxpayer? What about the illegals in blue states who will be getting more freebies when they become legalized? What about the Legals having to wait months for visas so they can process the Dreamers.

[Rudeman]

The lie is highlighted. They can't find a skilled worker. Yeah, right. They can't find a worker for a dirt cheap price with a visa dog collar. And they don't even look for Americans.

That is like a person saying they can't find a beach house for $20k, and they haven't even looked, but the government needs to fix that. And the proposed solution is for the government to provide a certain number of beach mansions for $20k, and sell them all to Gates and Zuckerberg. That's some solution.

It sure seems like there are a lot of openings for skilled workers and it isn't just limited to programming.

[Brian4Liberty]

It sure seems like there are a lot of openings for skilled workers and it isn't just limited to programming.

"Fake" job openings have been standard fare for many decades. It is very common in government, where there are rules that there has to be a public "open req" for a position. Quite often, the position is a promotion for someone already working there and the req is written by that person to exactly match themselves. They then "get" the job when no one else "qualifies". This same technique has been used for the past 15 years or so for importing workers. The req is written such that no one can fill it, or the people doing the screening just reject all applications. These openings are then counted as the "jobs Americans can't do" or "can't find this expertise". It's a big farce.

[Brian4Liberty]

It sure seems like there are a lot of openings for skilled workers and it isn't just limited to programming.

And there is another reason for "fake" open reqs (i.e. they really aren't hiring, but they will have an "opening"). It happens at larger companies a lot. Many times, an open req will count as a person when layoffs happen. For instance, you have 10 people working for you, with 2 additional open reqs. A 10% workforce reduction is called for from the top. You can close one of those open reqs, and it's the same as laying off a real person. "Wow, we were just about to hire someone for that job, guess we can lay them off before they even start, and that will be our 10% cut." And here's a kicker: if someone questions a long standing open req, the answer will be..."we can't find anyone qualified".

[libertygold]

I see nothing wrong with this. There is no compromise on matters of principle to at least discuss ways of reaching a large demographic which has been going to the Democrats.

[enhanced_deficit]

My fear is that Rafael Ted Cruz/Rubio (and Iran war lobby that they have been ailimg to please) is not going to be happy with this development.
In "ethnic politics" this could be a very interesting move.


I don't know if a banker from Miami can say anything about Hispanic outreach that Reince could have said. ..

Depends how his views overall stack up against those of Alan Dershowitz trained lawyer from Canada, Ted Cruz. I don't much about the younger Bush but he could be a better ally for Rand than Cruz.

[luke78]

Nothing wrong with it. The important thing is the better work habits and willingness to learn.

[William Tell]

Can you prove some evidence for these accusations against Wenzel? Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't know Wenzel well. Lew Rockwell seems to think he's a good guy so I'd want to see some evidence before assuming Rockwell is wrong.

Sure, I don't know if you would agree with me, but at least I can show you why I said that. I don't care if Lew Rockwell likes him or not, Robert Wenzel still acts like a weasel. Wenzel has been posting nasty stuff ever since he got egg on his face after posting this: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2013/10/more-evidence-that-campaign-for-liberty.html

Of course, after Ron came out and personally endorsed Cuccinelli, Wenzel had to alter his spin slightly. And that is when it started getting really ugly, he posts any obscure trash he can find. And ties it in with guilt by association, and innuendos. That may be his right, but it gains him no love from me. Here is some stuff he has published since then.

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2013/10/on-sad-ron-paul-endorsement-of-ken.html

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2013/08/ron-paul-vs-ron-paul-inc.html

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/01/whats-in-store-for-ron-paul-inc-in-2014.html

http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/02/rand-paul-playing-with-fire-demands.html