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Origanalist
02-01-2014, 08:09 AM
Prosecutors filed charges Friday against two former Boy Scout leaders accused of toppling one of the ancient rock formations at Utah's Goblin Valley State Park.

Glenn Taylor is charged with criminal mischief and David Hall with aiding criminal mischief, another felony, Utah State Parks & Recreation said.

Emery County Attorney David Blackwell said he filed the charges Friday but is trying to negotiate a plea deal.

The pair was ordered to appear in state court March 18.

A video shot by Hall in October and posted on YouTube shows Taylor dislodging a mushroom-shaped sandstone pillar.

They claimed it might have been ready to fall and kill a visitor. Both were later stripped of their Boy Scout positions.

Park officials have said the rock formation had been standing for much of human history, if not longer.

continued....http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/02/01/former-boy-scout-leaders-charged-with-felonies-after-toppling-ancient-rock/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fnational+%28Interna l+-+US+Latest+-+Text%29

donnay
02-01-2014, 08:32 AM
"No good deed goes unpunished." SMH

asurfaholic
02-01-2014, 08:43 AM
I remember we had a lengthy discussion about this.

I hope the charges are dropped

asurfaholic
02-01-2014, 09:01 AM
http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/criminal-mischief/

The lowest degree felony here is


S 145.05 Criminal mischief in the third degree.

A person is guilty of criminal mischief in the third degree when, with intent to damage property of another person, and having no right to do so nor any reasonable ground to believe that he has such right, he damages property of another person in an amount exceeding two hundred fifty dollars.

Criminal mischief in the third degree is a class E felony.


Going up in degree has higher property damage thresholds. All the way to 1st degree, a class B felony - destroying property with an explosive.

(Mount Rushmore?)

So the question is can the prosecutors establish
1) criminal intent. "with intent to damage property "
2) ownership of said rock "of another person"
3) lack of right to knock a rock over "having no right to do so nor any reasonable ground to believe that he has such right"
4) actual damage "damages property of another person in an amount exceeding two hundred fifty dollars."

With regards to 1) the guys said they knocked it over because it posed a safety hazard. That doesn't sound like criminal intent, and even if this is a fib, excuse for knocking it down, the prosecutor has to PROVE the intent was otherwise. Hard to do

2) the rock was on public land, so technically he was a part owner. You can't say he had no ownership stake in the property by virtue of being a taxpayer. Who suffered a loss?

3) were there signs prohibiting disturbing the landscape? Does this mean i can't pick up a stone and skip it into a lake in a park? Or scratch my initials into a tree in the woods?

4) how much damage actually occurred. If a storm blew the rock over would it be any different? Who places a value on a rock? Is the rock less valuable laying on its side?

Origanalist
02-01-2014, 09:07 AM
"felonious assault on rock"

pcosmar
02-01-2014, 09:15 AM
Investigators: Fatal rockslide was not predictable
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130905/us-minnesota-rockslide/?ir=style&utm_hp_ref=style

Dad who saved girl in deadly rock slide remembered
http://news.yahoo.com/dad-saved-girl-deadly-rock-slide-remembered-044610233.html

Also in Utah,
http://geology.utah.gov/utahgeo/hazards/landslide/rockville0210/index.htm
http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_8709.shtml

Ender
02-01-2014, 10:24 AM
Investigators: Fatal rockslide was not predictable
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130905/us-minnesota-rockslide/?ir=style&utm_hp_ref=style

Dad who saved girl in deadly rock slide remembered
http://news.yahoo.com/dad-saved-girl-deadly-rock-slide-remembered-044610233.html

Also in Utah,
http://geology.utah.gov/utahgeo/hazards/landslide/rockville0210/index.htm
http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_8709.shtml


I realize that most of you think the charges are silly but Goblin Valley is an incredible wealth of earth history. If every idiot that went through the valley toppled a rock that they "thought" was going to fall, Goblin Valley would cease to exist- which would be a very sad thing.

Here is a site with some great pics:

http://azleader.wordpress.com/2012/09/05/goblin-valley/

I think the men should have to do community service in an outdoor area and felony charges dropped.

donnay
02-01-2014, 10:33 AM
http://www.pbase.com/azleader/image/145813900.jpg

Look like pieces in a chess game.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
02-01-2014, 06:38 PM
I saw the video of those two goobers tumbling the rock. They should have been fired for just being boring.

That rock was not interesting in the least.



More interesting rocks:


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSR841bFQxhviUFBpQMl0_x7EC95MgMd _zeADQIwpZubOLk4khhhA

http://sandbox.spcollege.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Butt-Rock.jpg

NorthCarolinaLiberty
02-01-2014, 06:44 PM
And in case anybody missed it. Here is a video of the horrific crime.

A civil suit should be filed to cover the emotional distress of that rock. After those two are convicted--they should be given the chair.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoO9oy6S2Nk

GunnyFreedom
02-01-2014, 06:53 PM
Booted from Scouts - absolutely, they deserved it. Charged with a crime? I don't think so. Good deed? No way José, that rock was nowhere near about to fall.

Feeding the Abscess
02-01-2014, 06:57 PM
Muh rocks

GunnyFreedom
02-01-2014, 07:11 PM
Muh rocks

Just because they shouldn't be charged criminally doesn't mean this wasn't a terrible and stupid thing to do. If people throughout history had thought this was OK we wouldn't even have a Goblin Valley today. I mean, have some freakin respect for history and future generations for heaven's sake.

specsaregood
02-01-2014, 07:36 PM
Booted from Scouts - absolutely, they deserved it. Charged with a crime? I don't think so. Good deed? No way José, that rock was nowhere near about to fall.

I disagree. throw the book at em as far as I'm concerned. the good deed thing is bullshit, they were being assholes and knew it.

GunnyFreedom
02-01-2014, 07:46 PM
I disagree. throw the book at em as far as I'm concerned. the good deed thing is bullshit, they were being assholes and knew it.

Tragedy of the commons. If a person owned the land they could be (rightfully!) sued for vandalism. So long as it's "public" land, then criminalizing this sort of thing is very, very dangerous. How long before someone can be arrested for leaving a footprint?

specsaregood
02-01-2014, 08:29 PM
Tragedy of the commons. If a person owned the land they could be (rightfully!) sued for vandalism. So long as it's "public" land, then criminalizing this sort of thing is very, very dangerous. How long before someone can be arrested for leaving a footprint?

Meh, I don't really have a problem with public land and this isn't about footprints. If it was about footprints then I'd be there with you. In the meantime, thousands of people have been through the place without doing what they did; clearly they are screwed up in the head and need them some rehabilitation or punishment.

Snew
02-01-2014, 08:38 PM
Terrible thing to do, but it's not a felony.

pcosmar
02-01-2014, 08:55 PM
I realize that most of you think the charges are silly but Goblin Valley is an incredible wealth of earth history. If every idiot that went through the valley toppled a rock that they "thought" was going to fall, Goblin Valley would cease to exist- which would be a very sad thing.


Nope,,

It would still exist. Matter can not be destroyed,, only changed.. And it changes daily. Is in a constant state of change.

And yes,, I am familiar with the area.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SxbbjgbFTgI/UoUQR5STGUI/AAAAAAAABis/g3R6pTJx53s/s1600/galaxy-quest.jpg


Never give up, Never surrender.

CaseyJones
02-01-2014, 09:04 PM
Tragedy of the commons. If a person owned the land they could be (rightfully!) sued for vandalism. So long as it's "public" land, then criminalizing this sort of thing is very, very dangerous. How long before someone can be arrested for leaving a footprint?

actually wasn't there a case some years back where someone went stomping protected dirt formations?

pcosmar
02-01-2014, 09:07 PM
How long before someone can be arrested for leaving a footprint?

The Butterfly Effect.

GunnyFreedom
02-01-2014, 09:08 PM
actually wasn't there a case some years back where someone went stomping protected dirt formations?

Yes, yes there was. No idea where to find it, but IIRC the claim was it was a special mud/slime/soil formation that would take thousands of years to recover.

fisharmor
02-01-2014, 09:10 PM
I'd rather they were charged for voluntarily serving a group that brainwashes children in statism, militarization, and syncretism, and imbues them with sympathy for fraternal orders.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
02-01-2014, 09:12 PM
It's only vandalism when YOU do it.







http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Mount_Rushmore_National_Memorial.jpg/1200px-Mount_Rushmore_National_Memorial.jpg

CaseyJones
02-01-2014, 09:14 PM
Yes, yes there was. No idea where to find it, but IIRC the claim was it was a special mud/slime/soil formation that would take thousands of years to recover.

ya I just tried to search it, could not find it

GunnyFreedom
02-01-2014, 09:29 PM
It's only vandalism when YOU do it.







http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Mount_Rushmore_National_Memorial.jpg/1200px-Mount_Rushmore_National_Memorial.jpg

Or, they could always appease the Lakota Sioux, angry at our having carved a sacred mountain, by carving yet another sacred mountain with an image of Crazy Horse...

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/d2/d8/65/crazy-horse-memorial.jpg

Jamesiv1
02-01-2014, 10:13 PM
Drop the rock on him with the same degree of force he used to topple it.

Or roll the rock so it knocks him off a precipice of the same height.

And then put the rock back where it belongs.

Done.